Worst county in your state?

[Flint1979]

I only went to Staten Island so I could say I was there. Pretty much it's suburban in character and there are parts of it that seem very isolated and remote.

That's the beauty of it. There's some parts where you'd hardly believe you're in NYC

Yeah like on the west side by the sanitation department.

[CapeCodder]

I only went to Staten Island so I could say I was there. Pretty much it's suburban in character and there are parts of it that seem very isolated and remote.

That's the beauty of it. There's some parts where you'd hardly believe you're in NYC

Yeah like on the west side by the sanitation department.

Even by the Farm Colony/Sea View Hospital

[1995hoo]

I only went to Staten Island so I could say I was there. Pretty much it's suburban in character and there are parts of it that seem very isolated and remote.

That's the beauty of it. There's some parts where you'd hardly believe you're in NYC

You could say the same of parts of Queens, especially if you head down to Breezy Point.

[webny99]

I really just meant NYC in general, and I picked a county.

You picked well, mostly because of the stereotype of the Bronx being the worst borough. All five boroughs have things going for them, but it's certainly easier to give NYC as a whole an edge over a rural county than each borough individually.

[kphoger]

I really just meant NYC in general, and I picked a county.

You picked well, mostly because of the stereotype of the Bronx being the worst borough. All five boroughs have things going for them, but it's certainly easier to give NYC as a whole an edge over a rural county than each borough individually.

My point is that I'm sure plenty of Orleans County residents would prefer staying over moving to NYC.

[1995hoo]

I really just meant NYC in general, and I picked a county.

You picked well, mostly because of the stereotype of the Bronx being the worst borough. All five boroughs have things going for them, but it's certainly easier to give NYC as a whole an edge over a rural county than each borough individually.

[webny99]

My point is that I'm sure plenty of Orleans County residents would prefer staying over moving to NYC.

Oh, I have no doubt that's true. That's probably true of the residents of almost every New York county, including my own. Doesn't say much about which place is fundamentally better, though, because hate of downstate (if you live upstate) and total disillusionment about upstate (if you live downstate), is the #1 rule of being a good New York citizen.

[debragga]

East Carroll Parish, Louisiana. Middle of nowhere, tons of poverty, and de facto segregated neighborhoods and schools.

Geez just looking at the Demographics of that county (well parish in Louisiana talk) that might be the worst county (parish) anyone has listed to this point.

There are some others in Louisiana that are close too

[empirestate]

1. It's a beach in name only. Presumably, the reason you knew it existed is because it's where the LOSP ends.

The reason I know about it is because I've studied maps of my home state extensively for years, and I know a whole lot about what exists in the state. But you make a good point that many people may indeed know of it because of the parkway ending there.

But whatever the reason, the point remains that the beach is, indeed, of note. So to say that there are no beaches of note is not something we can objectively corroborate.

2. Of course, every county has its run-down areas, but the difference with Orleans is that it's the whole county, not just parts of it.

I've visited places in the county that are not run-down. So here again, we can't objectively confirm that claim.

And just to cap it off, quality of life: whose life, though? Can't really get more subjective than that–and since getting subjective is the whole point of the question, why not just go ahead and embrace that, rather than try to support a subjective position with objective criteria?

It is subjective in the sense that you can find a few positive things about Orleans County, which you've done a commendable job of.

Well, no, what makes it subjective is that the things that lower the quality of one person's life might not lower the quality of another's, if for no other reason than that one of the persons doesn't dislike those things.

But that's a lot different than making an argument for why another county is worse than Orleans. In other words, maybe you think Orleans County is simply OK, or not the worst place on the planet. That could be true, and it could still be the worst county in New York. The two can be true simultaneously if the New York's other 61 counties are simply better, which I believe to be the case.
My guess is that it would be pretty hard - for you, me, or anyone else - to make a feasible case, even subjectively, that any other county is worse, but I'm here for it if anyone wants to try! 

Sure I can. :-) I'm not particularly fond of Nassau County, because the stuff that it's full of is stuff I like less than what Orleans County is full of.

That's pretty much all there is to it–the opposing view would be that I actually do like Nassau County better than Orleans, which is what you'd have to persuade me of if you wanted to rebut the argument. But because it's subjective, that's a pretty tall order.

That's why the idea of making an objective argument for one county as the worst just seems like a no-win situation to me. You certainly don't have to agree with my subjective choice of Nassau County. But if you make an objective case for Orleans County, then we do both have to agree, or the case doesn't stand.

I'm in the suburbs... but I think of myself as being "from Rochester" and that's what my answer would be if someone asked, so that's what I went with in my profile.

Yeah, that's what I mean. You were saying how the benefits of a big city are also present in its suburbs, to the point where the city itself can often be done without. However, there must be some further benefit, value or importance to the city proper, such that you feel motivated to identify principally with it.

[The Nature Boy]

"Doesn't have a lot going for it" does not make it the worst.

I'd imagine Oklahoma has sixty-ish counties that are on par with Orleans County. Run-down, economically depressed, no scenery, rednecks, zero Lake Ontario beaches...

I would argue that Oklahoma has something better than a lake that shares a name with a Canadian province, it has the the Canadian River and and even Canadian County.

Take THAT Orleans County and your little Lake Ontario.

[CoreySamson]

If I had to choose, I would probably say Brooks County. Middle of nowhere, no scenery, and many illegal immigrants die in the county every year because of the hot weather. Also, 40% of the population lives below the poverty line.

[tolbs17]

Imo, probably Lenoir. Very high crime rate, and robbery rates are high.

[webny99]

But whatever the reason, the point remains that the beach is, indeed, of note. So to say that there are no beaches of note is not something we can objectively corroborate.

But whether it's of note is only the second question to be addressed.
The first question is whether it's a beach, and, from a public utility standpoint, it is not.

I've visited places in the county that are not run-down. So here again, we can't objectively confirm that claim.

For example...

That's why the idea of making an objective argument for one county as the worst just seems like a no-win situation to me. You certainly don't have to agree with my subjective choice of Nassau County. But if you make an objective case for Orleans County, then we do both have to agree, or the case doesn't stand.

I think we've already established that it isn't an objective fact, and that saying it is was a mis-framing on my part. I'm not going to try to convince you that Nassau is better than Orleans, and, in the absence of actual data which I have neither the time nor resources to compile, I can't even prove you're in the minority, so you're right: we've hit a dead end.

Yeah, that's what I mean. You were saying how the benefits of a big city are also present in its suburbs, to the point where the city itself can often be done without. However, there must be some further benefit, value or importance to the city proper, such that you feel motivated to identify principally with it.

Well, sure; simply the fact that it has enabled the suburbs by virtue of being the first and most prominent settlement in the area. That also means it's the most well-known and easily identifiable among the general population.

It's not that I'm particularly fond of saying I'm from Rah-chester. It's more just that I'd get confused looks if I said the actual name of the town (and no, it's not Irondequoit ), and would end up qualifying it with "a suburb of Rochester" most of the time anyways. The icing on the cake, of course, is that I'm in a Rochester ZIP code, and therefore, have a Rochester mailing address.

[webny99]

I would argue that Oklahoma has something better than a lake that shares a name with a Canadian province, it has the the Canadian River and and even Canadian County.

Take THAT Orleans County and your little Lake Ontario.

... and on that lake Ontario, there is a town of Ontario, whose county shares a border with a county named Ontario, whose state shares a border with a province named Ontario.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Back to Minnesota I'd probably throw Beltrami on the list. Lot of poverty within the large Native population and there has been increasing amounts of friction between them and local racists in recent times.

[Scott5114]

I would argue that Oklahoma has something better than a lake that shares a name with a Canadian province, it has the the Canadian River and and even Canadian County.

Take THAT Orleans County and your little Lake Ontario.

... and on that lake Ontario, there is a town of Ontario, whose county shares a border with a county named Ontario, whose state shares a border with a province named Ontario.

And Canadian County has Yukon, which is a territory in Canada.

[empirestate]

But whatever the reason, the point remains that the beach is, indeed, of note. So to say that there are no beaches of note is not something we can objectively corroborate.

But whether it's of note is only the second question to be addressed.
The first question is whether it's a beach, and, from a public utility standpoint, it is not.

Probably the simplest way to put it is that you can't swim there, or use it in pretty much any other way (although that in itself might be notable, especially as it's maintained by the state for presumably recreational purposes). But even then, you'd have to show that the absence of beaches is a fact that objectively makes Orleans County the worst.

And more broadly than that, of course, is the question of whether "the worst" can be an objective quality at all. I wasn't sure it could be, that's why I was curious about what objective data you had available to do so.

I've visited places in the county that are not run-down. So here again, we can't objectively confirm that claim.

For example...

For example? I mean, residences and businesses in the county. Even just places I've driven by. Not every building in the county is ramshackle, and certainly not every person who resides there is indigent. The whole lakeshore that has a notable lack of beaches has an awful lot of homes lining it that aren't in poor repair at all.

I'm not going to try to convince you that Nassau is better than Orleans, and, in the absence of actual data which I have neither the time nor resources to compile, I can't even prove you're in the minority, so you're right: we've hit a dead end.

Sure, and a dead end that we pretty well knew was coming, I think. And that's just fine–this is in no way a complaint, for my part. Which of us in this habit hasn't purposely driven down a lot of dead end roads, just to see what lies along them? :-)

Well, sure; simply the fact that it has enabled the suburbs by virtue of being the first and most prominent settlement in the area. That also means it's the most well-known and easily identifiable among the general population.

It's not that I'm particularly fond of saying I'm from Rah-chester. It's more just that I'd get confused looks if I said the actual name of the town (and no, it's not Irondequoit ), and would end up qualifying it with "a suburb of Rochester" most of the time anyways.

Exactly. The city of Rochester, for whatever reason, has an importance beyond your personal like or dislike of it, such that you use its name to identify your location, rather than the name of the body politic whose land actually underlies your home. You could even say that there's a stronger objective case to be made here (to whatever conclusion) than there is in the "worst county" question.

The icing on the cake, of course, is that I'm in a Rochester ZIP code, and therefore, have a Rochester mailing address.

Oh yes, certainly one of the most pervasive sources of confusion and discrepancy when it comes to fixing a location. There are even people who literally don't know where they actually live or own property–even in the town where I used to have a home, there were people who would argue they didn't live in the town because their ZIP code had a different name. I'm not sure where they thought they were sending their taxes...

[webny99]

Probably the simplest way to put it is that you can't swim there, or use it in pretty much any other way (although that in itself might be notable, especially as it's maintained by the state for presumably recreational purposes). But even then, you'd have to show that the absence of beaches is a fact that objectively makes Orleans County the worst.

Right on the first count; that's what I was getting at in saying there are no beaches of note! 
As for the second count, it's not that the absence of beaches on its own makes it the worst county. Rather, it's one of several factors, and perhaps among the most glaring, given that the lakeshore is potentially one of the biggest advantages Orleans County has over a generic inland county, and it's a completely wasted advantage because there's nowhere for the public to enjoy it or even see much of it aside from a fleeting glimpse or two on the Parkway.

For example? I mean, residences and businesses in the county. Even just places I've driven by. Not every building in the county is ramshackle, and certainly not every person who resides there is indigent. The whole lakeshore that has a notable lack of beaches has an awful lot of homes lining it that aren't in poor repair at all.

As compared with other counties, though? The fact that there are residents living above the poverty line and there are homes that aren't  in poor repair doesn't quite cut it; and in fact just shows how far the bar has fallen.

Exactly. The city of Rochester, for whatever reason, has an importance beyond your personal like or dislike of it, such that you use its name to identify your location, rather than the name of the body politic whose land actually underlies your home. You could even say that there's a stronger objective case to be made here (to whatever conclusion) than there is in the "worst county" question.

I honestly can't even remember where this side discussion started, but I don't believe I had any larger point to make on this and was only responding to your inquiry. So, you are welcome to come to whatever conclusion you would like, and if I object, you'll be the first to know. 

[hotdogPi]

I honestly can't even remember where this side discussion started

It was about the definition of the word "objective".

[webny99]

I honestly can't even remember where this side discussion started

It was about the definition of the word "objective".

Yes, the discussion as a whole started with that, but I was referring only to the last ("side") point, to which I've added an "hr" to separate it from the rest.

Looking back, that appears to have started with my comment about not needing to visit the city of Rochester.

[empirestate]

Probably the simplest way to put it is that you can't swim there, or use it in pretty much any other way (although that in itself might be notable, especially as it's maintained by the state for presumably recreational purposes). But even then, you'd have to show that the absence of beaches is a fact that objectively makes Orleans County the worst.

Right on the first count; that's what I was getting at in saying there are no beaches of note! 
As for the second count, it's not that the absence of beaches on its own makes it the worst county. Rather, it's one of several factors, and perhaps among the most glaring, given that the lakeshore is potentially one of the biggest advantages Orleans County has over a generic inland county, and it's a completely wasted advantage because there's nowhere for the public to enjoy it or even see much of it aside from a fleeting glimpse or two on the Parkway.

Right. Not on its own, but as one example of several factors that can't be shown to make a county objectively the worst, because the factors depend on one's personal opinion about them. That's the crux here, it's not the beach per se.

For example? I mean, residences and businesses in the county. Even just places I've driven by. Not every building in the county is ramshackle, and certainly not every person who resides there is indigent. The whole lakeshore that has a notable lack of beaches has an awful lot of homes lining it that aren't in poor repair at all.

As compared with other counties, though? The fact that there are residents living above the poverty line and there are homes that aren't  in poor repair doesn't quite cut it; and in fact just shows how far the bar has fallen.

No, not as compared with other counties, just the entirety of Orleans itself. It isn't all run down, in my observation, as you said it was in yours. Since our observations differ, they can't be reconciled in a way that makes this an objective criterion.

Exactly. The city of Rochester, for whatever reason, has an importance beyond your personal like or dislike of it, such that you use its name to identify your location, rather than the name of the body politic whose land actually underlies your home. You could even say that there's a stronger objective case to be made here (to whatever conclusion) than there is in the "worst county" question.

I honestly can't even remember where this side discussion started, but I don't believe I had any larger point to make on this and was only responding to your inquiry. So, you are welcome to come to whatever conclusion you would like, and if I object, you'll be the first to know. 

The line of discussion was this:
kphoger said, "All the benefits of the big city are just a short drive away."

You replied, "But in many cases, said benefits (presumably restaurants, shopping, entertainment, access to health care, employment opportunities, etc.) are also in the suburbs. Personally, I can't think of many reasons why I would need/want to visit the city of Rochester, and can probably count on one hand the number of city destinations that I've been to this year."

I noticed that there must be at least some benefit–some aspect of value–that still lies that short drive away, in the city proper, rather than existing also in the suburbs. The evidence was that, as many people would, you had given your location as the city proper rather than any of its suburbs. You may not actually need to take the short drive to exploit that bit of value, but it's there nonetheless.

That's it–nothing in disagreement to the prior remarks, just adding to them (making the larger point, as it were), so hopefully no cause for objection. :-)

[webny99]

Not on its own, but as one example of several factors that can't be shown to make a county objectively the worst, because the factors depend on one's personal opinion about them. That's the crux here, it's not the beach per se.

It does, however, make it worse than all the other counties with a lakeshore, so that narrows the search for a worse county down considerably.

No, not as compared with other counties, just the entirety of Orleans itself. It isn't all run down, in my observation, as you said it was in yours. Since our observations differ, they can't be reconciled in a way that makes this an objective criterion.

This is where the logic gets a bit dogdy, for two reasons. First, I don't recall saying it was all run down, but rather, just run-down in general. Second, your observation that non-run-down buildings and areas of the county exist is only relevant to the extent that it can be used to show that Orleans is better than another county. I haven't seen that, so far.

I noticed that there must be at least some benefit–some aspect of value–that still lies that short drive away, in the city proper, rather than existing also in the suburbs. The evidence was that, as many people would, you had given your location as the city proper rather than any of its suburbs. You may not actually need to take the short drive to exploit that bit of value, but it's there nonetheless.

Sure, that's an aspect of value, but it's neither tangible nor directly comparable to the other types of benefits we were discussing.

[Scott5114]

Not on its own, but as one example of several factors that can't be shown to make a county objectively the worst, because the factors depend on one's personal opinion about them. That's the crux here, it's not the beach per se.

It does, however, make it worse than all the other counties with a lakeshore, so that narrows the search for a worse county down considerably.

It makes it worse to you that there's no good public beach in Orleans County. If you were a businessperson who wanted to charge for lake access, or a developer of private lakefront property, you'd probably say that it's better that it doesn't.

[Flint1979]

Not on its own, but as one example of several factors that can't be shown to make a county objectively the worst, because the factors depend on one's personal opinion about them. That's the crux here, it's not the beach per se.

It does, however, make it worse than all the other counties with a lakeshore, so that narrows the search for a worse county down considerably.

It makes it worse to you that there's no good public beach in Orleans County. If you were a businessperson who wanted to charge for lake access, or a developer of private lakefront property, you'd probably say that it's better that it doesn't.

I think that not only is there no good public beach in Orleans County I don't think there is a beach anywhere in the county let alone a good public one. Like I said in a previous post you'd think with a name like Lakeside Beach State Park that there would be a beach there. The entire shoreline has rocks and trees right up to the lake instead of a sand beach. I think going west of there too Tuscarora Beach is the only one I can think of that has a beach. Hamlin Beach State Park just east of the county line in Monroe County has a beach too.

[webny99]

Not on its own, but as one example of several factors that can't be shown to make a county objectively the worst, because the factors depend on one's personal opinion about them. That's the crux here, it's not the beach per se.

It does, however, make it worse than all the other counties with a lakeshore, so that narrows the search for a worse county down considerably.

It makes it worse to you that there's no good public beach in Orleans County. If you were a businessperson who wanted to charge for lake access, or a developer of private lakefront property, you'd probably say that it's better that it doesn't.

... except that any sensible businessperson or developer wouldn't be investing Orleans County in the first place.