Worst county in your state?

[webny99]

Cruising around on Zillow, I see a number of lakefront properties in Orleans County that only cost about $50,000 more than my house in Norman does. If I were looking to move somewhere in the area, I'd probably give them a serious thought.

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

One of the catches here is that while a lakefront home would make a nice pleasant place to live in the summer, winters in Upstate New York are brutal. If you're not used to a lot of snow, you're in for a big shock... and all the more so in a remote rural area with fewer neighbors, plow trucks, grocery stores, and other signs of civilization nearby.

I could be wrong, but I suspect a significant percentage of those lakefront homes are vacant in the winter.

[vdeane]

Also keep in mind that anything on the lakefront is subject to heavy erosion in high water years (which, so far at least, have included 2017 and 2019).

[Scott5114]

Cruising around on Zillow, I see a number of lakefront properties in Orleans County that only cost about $50,000 more than my house in Norman does. If I were looking to move somewhere in the area, I'd probably give them a serious thought.

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

One of the catches here is that while a lakefront home would make a nice pleasant place to live in the summer, winters in Upstate New York are brutal. If you're not used to a lot of snow, you're in for a big shock... and all the more so in a remote rural area with fewer neighbors, plow trucks, grocery stores, and other signs of civilization nearby.

I could be wrong, but I suspect a significant percentage of those lakefront homes are vacant in the winter.

Which is why I qualified that with "if I were looking to move to the area", as in "I am required to move to upstate New York under threat of death, more or less".

Otherwise I couldn't see myself living anywhere in the U.S. north of about Kansas City, cause while I can deal with 110° temperatures and tornadoes, five inches of snow a year is enough for me.

[hotdogPi]

Otherwise I couldn't see myself living anywhere in the U.S. north of about Kansas City, cause while I can deal with 110° temperatures and tornadoes, five inches of snow a year is enough for me.

What about being on the Pacific coast?

[Scott5114]

Otherwise I couldn't see myself living anywhere in the U.S. north of about Kansas City, cause while I can deal with 110° temperatures and tornadoes, five inches of snow a year is enough for me.

What about being on the Pacific coast?

I could probably do Washington myself, although I don't know if the rain up there would interfere with my wife's mental health, so that may be a consideration. She's originally from San Diego, so if we were to move to the Pacific coast we'd probably end up in Southern California.

[webny99]

Which is why I qualified that with "if I were looking to move to the area", as in "I am required to move to upstate New York under threat of death, more or less".

Otherwise I couldn't see myself living anywhere in the U.S. north of about Kansas City, cause while I can deal with 110° temperatures and tornadoes, five inches of snow a year is enough for me.

Ha, well at least from November to March, this would certainly be the opposite of that: more like 5° temperatures and 110 inches of snow. No tornadoes, though!

[empirestate]

I responded that, since there are parts of it that are not run-down, then it is indeed "just parts of it" that are, and hence the "whole county" isn't run-down. Now I'm sure you didn't mean to be that literal in writing "the whole county", but in order for the statement to stand as an objective one, it would have to be able to withstand such a literal construction.

Well, the only realistic revision I could make is to "a majority", or perhaps "a greater percentage than other counties", but that gets iffy in terms of provability.

Well, it's certainly a lot less iffy than "the whole county"...

And anyway, when you come right down to it, even a run-down part of Upstate looks a lot cleaner and tidier than a middle-income area down here. (I haven't nailed down why that is, but it definitely noticeable when you've lived in both areas.)

I could dive into that, but it sounds like a lot of work because, as you mentioned, it's a fairly subjective term when used as a broad header, and for that reason, I think this sub-topic has pretty much run its course.

Yeah, I don't know that there's much to be gained from trying, since you're not expected to make an objective case for your choice of worst county. It's perfectly adequate to just say, "I think Orleans is the worst."

As for your last clause, if you mean that there was no evidence that you thought the conversion was beneficial, then yes, that seemed to be the case, although it wasn't for lack of evidence so much as your refusal to let the evidence sway what you think.

Oh, it was absolutely for lack of evidence–or more precisely, for the lack of any new or updated information on which to base my opinion. All of the evidence that was presented was stuff I'd already considered in forming my viewpoint; I would've needed something new to change that balance. So it wasn't anything so active as refusing to be swayed, it's simply that what swaying there was to be done had already been done.

It really does come down to whether something is provable, and in most cases, if people are disagreeing, it isn't. But that doesn't prevent it from generating interesting debate and discussion.

Um, I'm not sure if you've noticed recently, but there's an awful lot of people out there disagreeing with an awful lot of perfectly provable stuff...

I've never been there, but Albion doesn't look very run-down to me from what I've seen on GSV, and the lakefront properties along Lake Ontario appear to be quite charming.

Albion's about typical for Upstate villages, especially those along the Erie Canal. And there are, indeed, some very interesting properties along the lake. Good orchard territory, too. Meanwhile, in the south part of the county you've got some rich and extensive mucklands.

Once you get over to Holley, you're in Brockport's sphere of influence–so basically, the suburbs of a college town, itself an exurb of Rochester. (Here's a view of its 100% run-down main square.)

[Flint1979]

Cruising around on Zillow, I see a number of lakefront properties in Orleans County that only cost about $50,000 more than my house in Norman does. If I were looking to move somewhere in the area, I'd probably give them a serious thought.

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

One of the catches here is that while a lakefront home would make a nice pleasant place to live in the summer, winters in Upstate New York are brutal. If you're not used to a lot of snow, you're in for a big shock... and all the more so in a remote rural area with fewer neighbors, plow trucks, grocery stores, and other signs of civilization nearby.

I could be wrong, but I suspect a significant percentage of those lakefront homes are vacant in the winter.

It'd be basically like winters in the U.P. of Michigan especially the Keweenaw Peninsula.

Syracuse gets 123 inches.
Rochester gets 99 inches.
Buffalo gets 95 inches.

Marquette gets 117 inches.
Sault Ste. Marie gets 120 inches.
Houghton gets 218 inches.
Escanaba only gets 49 inches.

As the crow flies Houghton and Escanaba are only 117 miles apart.

For a Lower Peninsula city Saginaw gets 41 inches.

Lake effect snow is a huge factor around the Great Lakes obviously.

[webny99]

Well, the only realistic revision I could make is to "a majority", or perhaps "a greater percentage than other counties", but that gets iffy in terms of provability.

Well, it's certainly a lot less iffy than "the whole county"...

"The whole county" actually isn't particularly iffy. With the "in general" qualifier, then it's a reasonable statement. Without the qualifier, then it's beyond iffy because, as we've established, it can be fairly easily disproved altogether.

Using another qualifier such as "a majority", however, can't be dismissed so easily. It would take an extensive amount of time and effort to prove or disprove, because it would require getting a lot more granular than we have so far.

And anyway, when you come right down to it, even a run-down part of Upstate looks a lot cleaner and tidier than a middle-income area down here. (I haven't nailed down why that is, but it definitely noticeable when you've lived in both areas.)

"Down here" being central Long Island, IIRC?

Oh, it was absolutely for lack of evidence–or more precisely, for the lack of any new or updated information on which to base my opinion. All of the evidence that was presented was stuff I'd already considered in forming my viewpoint; I would've needed something new to change that balance. So it wasn't anything so active as refusing to be swayed, it's simply that what swaying there was to be done had already been done.

I don't think we're really disagreeing on that, then, but to the extent that there's a distinction to be made, it seems to me that "I already know everything there is to know" is a more concerning attitude than "I refuse to be swayed".

Um, I'm not sure if you've noticed recently, but there's an awful lot of people out there disagreeing with an awful lot of perfectly provable stuff...

If you're referring to what I think you are, it's not so much a question of provability as it is one of validity. It's hard to explain the distinction without getting deep into territory that we shouldn't on this forum, but suffice to say that bits of truth can sometimes be used as evidence that would seem to be in direct contrast to the actual big picture truth in a way that's difficult for the average person to reconcile.

[CapeCodder]

I'll add St. Lawrence County, NY to the list. My dad lived in Gouverneur from 2009-2015. I had been there twice. The last time was Thanksgiving, 2014. The poverty that I saw on some of the side roads further cemented my belief that Albany only cares for affairs below it.

[Flint1979]

When I was traveling across New York one time on the Thruway this was back in 2004. I stopped to eat at a diner in Canajoharie and thought that was an unusual town maybe not for New York standards but it just seemed like everything was strange there. So maybe Montgomery County is the worst I dunno though. I doubt it is.

[empirestate]

"The whole county" actually isn't particularly iffy. With the "in general" qualifier, then it's a reasonable statement. Without the qualifier, then it's beyond iffy because, as we've established, it can be fairly easily disproved altogether.

Well, that's true, isn't it. There really was no "if" about it. :-)

And anyway, when you come right down to it, even a run-down part of Upstate looks a lot cleaner and tidier than a middle-income area down here. (I haven't nailed down why that is, but it definitely noticeable when you've lived in both areas.)

"Down here" being central Long Island, IIRC?

No, Hudson Valley. But I mean Downstate in general.

I don't think we're really disagreeing on that, then, but to the extent that there's a distinction to be made, it seems to me that "I already know everything there is to know" is a more concerning attitude than "I refuse to be swayed".

Perhaps so, but that wasn't my stance during that discussion. If you'll remember, I eagerly asked for any new information to come to light that I hadn't already considered, but the only forthcoming arguments were the same things I already knew about the topic (mostly the various benefits of distance-based numbering).

Um, I'm not sure if you've noticed recently, but there's an awful lot of people out there disagreeing with an awful lot of perfectly provable stuff...

If you're referring to what I think you are, it's not so much a question of provability as it is one of validity. It's hard to explain the distinction without getting deep into territory that we shouldn't on this forum, but suffice to say that bits of truth can sometimes be used as evidence that would seem to be in direct contrast to the actual big picture truth in a way that's difficult for the average person to reconcile.

From your description, it doesn't sound like I am. I'm referring to things that can be known, and are known, to be true. And then some people don't know them to be true, and as a result, they mistakenly believe that they know them not to be true. So they disagree that the thing is true, even though it can be proven to be true.

It can also to apply to things that are knowable, but not actually known. You'll often hear someone say that, because the thing hasn't yet been shown to be true, that means it's been shown not to be true–the common trap of "absence of evidence..."

[webny99]

And anyway, when you come right down to it, even a run-down part of Upstate looks a lot cleaner and tidier than a middle-income area down here. (I haven't nailed down why that is, but it definitely noticeable when you've lived in both areas.)

"Down here" being central Long Island, IIRC?

No, Hudson Valley. But I mean Downstate in general.

OK, gotcha. I haven't been around downstate enough to make a fair comparison, but I do think upstate suburbs are generally high-quality and well-kept for the most part; rural areas not so much, although it does depend.

The main contrast I'd draw is actually not related to cosmetics: downstate suburbs (thinking of Rockland/Westchester here, not Long Island) are much more intense than ours, with dense vegetation, hilly, twisty roads across varying terrain, and a lot less neighborhood character than I'm used to. It feels like you're in the wilderness and the dense suburbia was a craftily-fitted afterthought.

Perhaps so, but that wasn't my stance during that discussion. If you'll remember, I eagerly asked for any new information to come to light that I hadn't already considered, but the only forthcoming arguments were the same things I already knew about the topic (mostly the various benefits of distance-based numbering).

The problem, of course, is that I'm not sure there's any additional information to present.

From your description, it doesn't sound like I am. I'm referring to things that can be known, and are known, to be true. And then some people don't know them to be true, and as a result, they mistakenly believe that they know them not to be true. So they disagree that the thing is true, even though it can be proven to be true.

It can also to apply to things that are knowable, but not actually known. You'll often hear someone say that, because the thing hasn't yet been shown to be true, that means it's been shown not to be true–the common trap of "absence of evidence..."

I see what you're saying. To a certain extent, that's actually fairly applicable to the discussion we've been having: I've been arguing Orleans is worst until we prove it isn't (guilty until proven innocent), and you've been arguing that Orleans isn't worst until we prove it is (innocent until proven guilty).
Of course, the caveat is that you're referring to cases where what's correct is objective, which is not the case with the "worst county" discussion.

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

So, who is hosting the 2021 Orleans County Roadmeet?

[STLmapboy]

Guess I gotta check out Orleans County.

[kphoger]

So, who is hosting the 2021 Orleans County Roadmeet?

Well, if there's ever a roadmeet in the general vicinity, it probably HAS to be on the itinerary now!

[Flint1979]

So, who is hosting the 2021 Orleans County Roadmeet?

I think webny99 should do the honors since he loves the county so much lol.

[webny99]

I'm not going to be hosting a roadmeet for reasons I won't get into now, but if I was going to, I'd pick my home county of Monroe, and not just because of bias; it really does have a lot more interesting things to see, both road-related and otherwise.

The NY 31/36/531 reconstruction might be of interest for anyone that hasn't seen it, and that's almost to Orleans County. 

[Rothman]

I'm not going to be hosting a roadmeet for reasons I won't get into now, but if I was going to, I'd pick my home county of Monroe, and not just because of bias; it really does have a lot more interesting things to see, both road-related and otherwise.

The NY 31/36/531 reconstruction might be of interest for anyone that hasn't seen it, and that's almost to Orleans County. 

Sissy.

[empirestate]

OK, gotcha. I haven't been around downstate enough to make a fair comparison, but I do think upstate suburbs are generally high-quality and well-kept for the most part; rural areas not so much, although it does depend.

Rural areas statewide are less prosperous than they once were, just because of agri-political history in general. The reason this shows more upstate than downstate is probably because there simply isn't much rural area downstate. However, the areas of Dutchess and Orange Counties, closer to the major market center, do show as a little more prosperous than elsewhere in the state. At least part of that is due to the "gentleman farmer" factor that you get in the back-country of a major urban center.

The main contrast I'd draw is actually not related to cosmetics: downstate suburbs (thinking of Rockland/Westchester here, not Long Island) are much more intense than ours, with dense vegetation, hilly, twisty roads across varying terrain, and a lot less neighborhood character than I'm used to. It feels like you're in the wilderness and the dense suburbia was a craftily-fitted afterthought.

It's something like that, yes. The far suburban and exurban areas north of NYC are still pretty wild country...that just happens to have a lot of development crammed into it. That just doesn't work out as neatly as laying a city across the relatively open territory of the Great Lakes. And also, probably, the cost of living downstate is markedly higher, with the result that many people have less to spend on cosmetic upkeep, even if they're relatively well-off otherwise.

Perhaps so, but that wasn't my stance during that discussion. If you'll remember, I eagerly asked for any new information to come to light that I hadn't already considered, but the only forthcoming arguments were the same things I already knew about the topic (mostly the various benefits of distance-based numbering).

The problem, of course, is that I'm not sure there's any additional information to present.

Which, of course, is only a problem if you're hoping for me to change my mind. :-)

I see what you're saying. To a certain extent, that's actually fairly applicable to the discussion we've been having: I've been arguing Orleans is worst until we prove it isn't (guilty until proven innocent), and you've been arguing that Orleans isn't worst until we prove it is (innocent until proven guilty).

Not quite–I'm not saying we can or should prove it either way. I'm saying that Orleans County is the worst to you, as it's an opinion. You said, or seemed to say, that it's provably the worst–meaning it's the worst for everyone, whether they know it or not, because it's based on objective fact.

Of course, the caveat is that you're referring to cases where what's correct is objective, which is not the case with the "worst county" discussion.

Right, and specifically, cases where what's correct is objective, but because people are disagreeing, they give the false impression that, by definition, what's correct is not objective.

I'm not going to be hosting a roadmeet for reasons I won't get into now, but if I was going to, I'd pick my home county of Monroe, and not just because of bias; it really does have a lot more interesting things to see, both road-related and otherwise.

The one road-related point of interest in Orleans County (besides, arguably, the LOSP terminus) is the culvert under the Erie Canal–the only such crossing by road of that waterway–and I've already got the photo on my website. (As does Google, but the GSV vehicle couldn't fit through the culvert itself.)

[webny99]

... However, the areas of Dutchess and Orange Counties, closer to the major market center, do show as a little more prosperous than elsewhere in the state. At least part of that is due to the "gentleman farmer" factor that you get in the back-country of a major urban center.

I'm not familiar with the "gentleman farmer" factor, but from the context you give, it sounds like it could be applied to a place like Ontario County as well: relatively prosperous, exurban in nature, and likely the first place that comes to city folks' mind when they think of "the countryside".

It's something like that, yes. The far suburban and exurban areas north of NYC are still pretty wild country...that just happens to have a lot of development crammed into it. That just doesn't work out as neatly as laying a city across the relatively open territory of the Great Lakes. And also, probably, the cost of living downstate is markedly higher, with the result that many people have less to spend on cosmetic upkeep, even if they're relatively well-off otherwise.

Cost of living is no doubt an important factor. Development patterns are probably another: downstate has a lot of areas where old and new blended together as density increased, whereas here (and in Buffalo/Syracuse; can't speak for Albany) it's more traditional rings, with "old money" areas surrounding the immediate urban core and "new money" areas of progressively newer developments further afield.

Not quite–I'm not saying we can or should prove it either way. I'm saying that Orleans County is the worst to you, as it's an opinion. You said, or seemed to say, that it's provably the worst–meaning it's the worst for everyone, whether they know it or not, because it's based on objective fact.

Right, which is why I added the caveat about my point being not directly applicable in terms of objectivity. While you and I can distinguish between what's provable and what isn't, there are plenty of people who have trouble distinguishing between two otherwise very similar types of argument, which is part of what I think you were getting at.

The one road-related point of interest in Orleans County (besides, arguably, the LOSP terminus) is the culvert under the Erie Canal–the only such crossing by road of that waterway–and I've already got the photo on my website. (As does Google, but the GSV vehicle couldn't fit through the culvert itself.)

Which reminds me, I will definitely have to check that out sometime. Perhaps there are a few interesting tidbits in what I'd otherwise regard as my personal "flyover country"! 

[Flint1979]

Seriously though if I ever do get into New York doing some county clinching and hit Orleans County I will think of this thread. Like I said earlier it's an island county for me so I'm all for going to grab it, same with Wayne County, NY.

[hotdogPi]

Seriously though if I ever do get into New York doing some county clinching and hit Orleans County I will think of this thread. Like I said earlier it's an island county for me so I'm all for going to grab it, same with Wayne County, NY.

I think there's a pattern here. Wayne County, MI and Orleans Parish, LA both have islands, but unlike the ones in NY, contain the largest city in their state...

[vdeane]

I'm not going to be hosting a roadmeet for reasons I won't get into now, but if I was going to, I'd pick my home county of Monroe, and not just because of bias; it really does have a lot more interesting things to see, both road-related and otherwise.

The one road-related point of interest in Orleans County (besides, arguably, the LOSP terminus) is the culvert under the Erie Canal–the only such crossing by road of that waterway–and I've already got the photo on my website. (As does Google, but the GSV vehicle couldn't fit through the culvert itself.)

I could see a roadmeet working in the area.  I'd probably have it start in Medina or Albion and include at least one of the lift bridges, the closed bridge on Brown Street, the culvert, the truss bridge over the canal near Medina Falls, drive by the old rail cars near the Medina Train Museum, the arch bridge on NY 63 in Lydonville, the parkway stubs, and the Lake Ontario waterfront at the park at Oak Orchard Lighthouse in Point Breeze.

[noelbotevera]

Robeson. Anyone who knows Lumberton won't need an explanation. That place has an average IQ of 60.

Born in Lumberton. My family likes Lumberton so much, they went to Fayetteville to do literally anything.

As for my state? Hmm...

Hey there! Wanna get shot? Wanna see flat farmland that you can find elsewhere in America? Wanna buy inferior things that our pesky neighbors - *mumble* Lancaster County *mumble* - sell for cheaper prices AND better quality? Come to York County! Our claim to fame is our singular covered bridge and the 36% poverty rate of York!

Other states I've frequented, over the last 10 years, with counties I hate:
Howard County, MD - Nothing but Baltimore-Washington suburbia. Haven't bothered to finish upgrading MD 32 to freeway, because gated communities. Claim to fame is their fairgrounds, since I guess no other US county holds county fairs.

Richmond County, NY (Staten Island) - Why would anyone go to Staten Island? I mean, Long Island, I can understand going out there: you're either absurdly rich to own a house in the Hamptons, or Montauk Lighthouse. Jersey City makes a better fifth borough since they have the Statue of Liberty AND Ellis Island in their city limits.

Berkeley County, WV - Y'know, I don't hate this county as much as other WV counties. But, compared to other places in WV I've been to: New River Gorge, Seneca Rocks, Blackwater Falls, even Corridor H - this doesn't have much going for it. Even Harper's Ferry is in the neighboring county. All the good stuff is in Virginia (Luray Caverns, for example) or further west into the meat of WV. Martinsburg feels like an inferior Winchester with more traffic woes on its commercial strip (b/c of badly timed lights).