This is true? - Geographic oddities that defy conventional wisdom

[JayhawkCO]

Not sure if this should be its own thread, but since we're talking about things that feel so different but only traveling x amount of miles... Obviously out west we have a lot of variety (Mt. Whitney is only 85 miles from Badwater Basin). But east of the Mississippi, what's the most variety you can have within a 200 mile drive? This shouldn't include the heart of Manhattan to rural upstate New York, since any urban/rural comparison will be pretty stark. But either city to city feelings or nature to nature feelings, if that makes sense.

[webny99]

It's over 200 miles (293 to be exact) but I would submit Buffalo to Albany.

Buffalo is rust belt central and Albany is not like that at all given the state government, ties to NYC, and just general white collar vibes.

[Rothman]

Within NY, despite some people's misgivings in Buffalo, there does seem to be a possessiveness despite the wide variety of demographics from Montauk to Niagara.  "We are all in this together, whether you like it or not."

[JayhawkCO]

Just off the top of my head to answer my own question, but Roanoke to Washington is just under 200 miles as the crow flies. That strikes me as pretty different for cities. Maybe Columbus to Charleston, WV?

[skluth]

Not sure if this should be its own thread, but since we're talking about things that feel so different but only traveling x amount of miles... Obviously out west we have a lot of variety (Mt. Whitney is only 85 miles from Badwater Basin). But east of the Mississippi, what's the most variety you can have within a 200 mile drive? This shouldn't include the heart of Manhattan to rural upstate New York, since any urban/rural comparison will be pretty stark. But either city to city feelings or nature to nature feelings, if that makes sense.

It's less than 70 miles from Mount Washington, NH (>6,000') to Portland, ME at sea level. Goes from mountain peak to coastal harbor. There are wide valleys, large lakes, farming communities, lots of forest, mountainous terrain, and even a bit of alluvial plain between the two. The climate at the two endpoints couldn't be more different. And while it's not as populated as Southern New England, it's a lot more populous than the Owens Valley between Death Valley and Mount Whitney. It's less than a 100 mile drive from Portland to the cog railway to the top of Mount Washington, mostly along US 302. If you want to avoid an urban comparison between endpoints, compare Mt Washington to a more serene point on the coast like one of the state parks at a sandy beach or a rocky promontory.

[kphoger]

Anything with Chicago in between feels like two separate worlds to me.  So, say, South Bend and Rockford.

[empirestate]

Denver is already essentially the capital of the West. It even feels a bit like DC in spots.

For the Mountain West, maybe. Certainly not for the West Coast.

For neither–just for the West. And DC for the East. My scheme envisions no further divisions, but a scheme that does would have course include more capitals than two.

[thenetwork]

I'd venture that Denver and SLC might not feel so far apart if they weren't 370 miles apart as the crow flies and over 500 miles apart by road.

I have often likened Denver and SLC as "mirror images" of each other in several ways:

The bulk of each metropolitan area and nearby sizeable urban areas runs North/South along a single Interstate corridor and what little urban areas that run East/West  from the downtown areas are found along a single beltway route that runs about ¾ths of the way around town.

Both cities are at the foot of sizeable mountains on one side and no-mans land on the other, hence the majority of travel is usually north-south.  And as soon as you hit those areas, local traffic decreases very quickly, leaving just weekend getaway traffic and longer-distance travel.  Pass the airports on either interstate and it's like flipping a switch.

Each of the two cities are pretty much the only sizeable cities for 6+ hours/hundreds of miles in any direction by car.

Both towns can have very localized weather climates, compared to the rest of the region. 

I'm sure there are several other factoids that are shared by both cities, but those are the ones I'll start with.

And yes, I live in the Grand Junction area, thank you very much!

[Rothman]

I'd venture that Denver and SLC might not feel so far apart if they weren't 370 miles apart as the crow flies and over 500 miles apart by road.

I have often likened Denver and SLC as "mirror images" of each other in several ways:

The bulk of each metropolitan area and nearby sizeable urban areas runs North/South along a single Interstate corridor and what little urban areas that run East/West  from the downtown areas are found along a single beltway route that runs about ¾ths of the way around town.

Both cities are at the foot of sizeable mountains on one side and no-mans land on the other, hence the majority of travel is usually north-south.  And as soon as you hit those areas, local traffic decreases very quickly, leaving just weekend getaway traffic and longer-distance travel.  Pass the airports on either interstate and it's like flipping a switch.

Each of the two cities are pretty much the only sizeable cities for 6+ hours/hundreds of miles in any direction by car.

Both towns can have very localized weather climates, compared to the rest of the region. 

I'm sure there are several other factoids that are shared by both cities, but those are the ones I'll start with.

And yes, I live in the Grand Junction area, thank you very much!

Not sure how they're a mirror of each other.  Physical geopgraphical similarities aside, both cities' composition and cultures are quite different.

[Road Hog]

Geographically speaking in a climatic vein:

Average precipitation:

London, England: 27.2 inches

Lincoln, Nebraska: 30.9 inches

[hbelkins]

Our nation's capital is rather off-center, isn't it?

I remember reading an Andy Rooney essay where he advocated moving the national capital to Lebanon, Kansas, not just because it would then be in the center of the country, but also so that, like anyone does when they move, the government would be forced to go through all of the junk it's accumulated over the past 200 years and get rid of a lot of it.

President Trump tried a super-small beer version of that, moving a small office in the Agriculture Department to Kansas City, expecting that the office could downsize, especially since some employees would quit rather than make the move (for sensible reasons, such as spouses who worked in other Federal jobs that couldn't move to KC).

This was done so late in the President's term that, IIRC, it didn't stick with the change of administrations, though still with some heartburn among the affected employees.

The Bureau of Land Management was also temporarily relocated to Grand Junction, CO, which was also reversed after the turnover.

You've got to admit:  there's just something that feels right about an Ag office being in the Midwest, and about the BLM being west of the Front Range.

But now I'm wondering:  how often does this type of office relocation happen?  Never?  Occasionally?  Every few years?

It must have stunk for the people who had to relocate twice...

I remember the discussion of this, and actually thought it happened fairly early in Trump's term.

It brings to mind a frequent gripe that I have. Governments are too centralized. It just makes sense for ag-based agencies to be located closer to farms and ranches, and land management agencies to be based near the areas where the government owns a bunch of land. The people in those areas are better-versed in the issues than are bureaucrats in DC, hundreds of miles away from where the action is.

This is especially true now that we have made technological advances that allow for remote meetings.

This almost impacted me a few years ago. Not long after I started my current job, the director of Public Affairs transferred to another position. There was talk of appointing me interim director but having me work out of my existing office, two hours from Frankfort, but they found a permanent (well, as permanent as a political appointee can be) director in short order.

I'm a firm believer in the decentralization of the government. Put the offices out in the field, not in DC or the state capital.

[Rothman]

This almost impacted me a few years ago. Not long after I started my current job, the director of Public Affairs transferred to another position. There was talk of appointing me interim director but having me work out of my existing office, two hours from Frankfort, but they found a permanent (well, as permanent as a political appointee can be) director in short order.

I'm a firm believer in the decentralization of the government. Put the offices out in the field, not in DC or the state capital.

Heh.  That doesn't sound self-serving at all.  I can appreciate positions in one's own interest, though.

[Rothman]

Geographically speaking in a climatic vein:

Average precipitation:

London, England: 27.2 inches

Lincoln, Nebraska: 30.9 inches

That's a good one.

[empirestate]

It brings to mind a frequent gripe that I have. Governments are too centralized. It just makes sense for ag-based agencies to be located closer to farms and ranches, and land management agencies to be based near the areas where the government owns a bunch of land. The people in those areas are better-versed in the issues than are bureaucrats in DC, hundreds of miles away from where the action is.

This seems logical, but then don't you have experts in the field who suck at governing, because they're hundreds of miles from the seat of government?

Of course, there are many who feel that the best way to govern is not to, so perhaps it is logical after all.

[tdindy88]

Geographically speaking in a climatic vein:

Average precipitation:

London, England: 27.2 inches

Lincoln, Nebraska: 30.9 inches

I believe it. I spent a week in New York City in late May 2017 and never saw the sun out for an entire day, it was cloudy, rainy or the sun would appear for a few hours in the morning or evening, but never a clear day. The next year I was in London at the same time of the year and saw more sunshine than I expected. There was still a cloudy and a rainy day in there but the weather was much better than I expected.

[Bruce]

Geographically speaking in a climatic vein:

Average precipitation:

London, England: 27.2 inches

Lincoln, Nebraska: 30.9 inches

Seattle: 37.18 inches

Atlanta: 49.71 inches

New York City: 46.6 inches

We just have frequent rain that is light and easy to deal with.

[Rothman]

Geographically speaking in a climatic vein:

Average precipitation:

London, England: 27.2 inches

Lincoln, Nebraska: 30.9 inches

Seattle: 37.18 inches

Atlanta: 49.71 inches

New York City: 46.6 inches

We just have frequent rain that is light and easy to deal with.

Yeah, I'm wondering if number of cloudy days would be a better comparison.  London fog os more comparable to the constant Seattle drizzle?

[english si]

(data from wikipedia, annual stats)

Paris
- average precipitation: 637.4mm (25.09in)
- average precipitation days: 111.1 (of which 11.9 are snowy)
- average relative humidity: 76
- mean sunshine hours: 1661.6
- percent possible sunshine: 35%

London
- average precipitation: 615.0mm (24.21in)
- average precipitation days: 111.7 (no data for snowy days, presumably because it's very low)
- average relative humidity: 73
- mean sunshine hours: 1,674.8
- percent possible sunshine: 35%

So why does London have a reputation for being dull and wet, but Paris doesn't? London is raining for just half a day more, but is slightly less humid, sees slightly less precipitation and slightly more sun.

Oh, and for completeness:

Seattle
- average precipitation: 999mm (39.34in)
- average precipitation days: 156.2 (of which 4.7 are snowy)
- average relative humidity: 73.3
- mean sunshine hours: 2169.7
- percent possible sunshine: 49%

NYC
- average precipitation: 1258mm (49.52in)
- average precipitation days: 125.4 (of which 11.4 are snowy)
- average relative humidity: 63
- mean sunshine hours: 2534.7
- percent possible sunshine: 57%

Atlanta
- average precipitation: 1281mm (50.43in)
- average precipitation days: 116.3 (of which 1.5 are snowy)
- average relative humidity: 68.3
- mean sunshine hours: 2738.3
- percent possible sunshine: 62%

Lincoln
- average precipitation: 745mm (29.34in)
- average precipitation days: 95.3 (of which 17.9 are snowy)
- average relative humidity: 68.6
- mean sunshine hours: 2761.7
- percent possible sunshine: 52%

London fog os more comparable to the constant Seattle drizzle?

London drizzle is comparable with Seattle drizzle. The fog is something else.

[formulanone]

Oh, and for completeness:

While not a gamma world city (appropriately delta, but more theoretically a notch below "Sufficiency")...there's Mobile, Alabama:

- average precipitation: 1704mm
- average precipitation days: 117.1
- average relative humidity: 75%
- mean sunshine hours: 2691

It seems to be my experience that windshield wipers are never easier to sell than in Mobile...

So why does London have a reputation for being dull and wet, but Paris doesn't? London is raining for just half a day more, but is slightly less humid, sees slightly less precipitation and slightly more sun.

Almost certainly, it's because we hear and read more about London than Paris.

[Rothman]

(data from wikipedia, annual stats)

Paris
- average precipitation: 637.4mm (25.09in)
- average precipitation days: 111.1 (of which 11.9 are snowy)
- average relative humidity: 76
- mean sunshine hours: 1661.6
- percent possible sunshine: 35%

London
- average precipitation: 615.0mm (24.21in)
- average precipitation days: 111.7 (no data for snowy days, presumably because it's very low)
- average relative humidity: 73
- mean sunshine hours: 1,674.8
- percent possible sunshine: 35%

So why does London have a reputation for being dull and wet, but Paris doesn't? London is raining for just half a day more, but is slightly less humid, sees slightly less precipitation and slightly more sun.

Oh, and for completeness:

Seattle
- average precipitation: 999mm (39.34in)
- average precipitation days: 156.2 (of which 4.7 are snowy)
- average relative humidity: 73.3
- mean sunshine hours: 2169.7
- percent possible sunshine: 49%

NYC
- average precipitation: 1258mm (49.52in)
- average precipitation days: 125.4 (of which 11.4 are snowy)
- average relative humidity: 63
- mean sunshine hours: 2534.7
- percent possible sunshine: 57%

Atlanta
- average precipitation: 1281mm (50.43in)
- average precipitation days: 116.3 (of which 1.5 are snowy)
- average relative humidity: 68.3
- mean sunshine hours: 2738.3
- percent possible sunshine: 62%

Lincoln
- average precipitation: 745mm (29.34in)
- average precipitation days: 95.3 (of which 17.9 are snowy)
- average relative humidity: 68.6
- mean sunshine hours: 2761.7
- percent possible sunshine: 52%

London fog os more comparable to the constant Seattle drizzle?

London drizzle is comparable with Seattle drizzle. The fog is something else.

Yeah, that percent possible sunshine is what I was talking about.

Comparison to Paris is good, because London and Paris are closer together than most Americans perceive.

[english si]

Almost certainly, it's because we hear and read more about London than Paris.

Maybe, but I'm not so sure. Both are huge cultural powerhouses, and while there's the Anglophonic focus on London, Paris still looms very large in the culture.

Possibly there's the France=good weather, UK=bad weather idea, with Paris being at the bad end of French weather, with London at the good end of it. That might play into it.

Comparison to Paris is good, because London and Paris are closer together than most Americans perceive.

I knew they were pretty close stats-wise, which is contra-conventional wisdom even in those cities, but I hadn't realised they were that close until I grabbed the stats for that post.

It's about 200 miles between the two cities - that's not particularly close this side of the Atlantic, but isn't too far the other side. We're looking at NYC - DC distances (and the climate is somewhat different in those two cities).

[Rothman]

Almost certainly, it's because we hear and read more about London than Paris.

Maybe, but I'm not so sure. Both are huge cultural powerhouses, and while there's the Anglophonic focus on London, Paris still looms very large in the culture.

Possibly there's the France=good weather, UK=bad weather idea, with Paris being at the bad end of French weather, with London at the good end of it. That might play into it.

Comparison to Paris is good, because London and Paris are closer together than most Americans perceive.

I knew they were pretty close stats-wise, which is contra-conventional wisdom even in those cities, but I hadn't realised they were that close until I grabbed the stats for that post.

It's about 200 miles between the two cities - that's not particularly close this side of the Atlantic, but isn't too far the other side. We're looking at NYC - DC distances (and the climate is somewhat different in those two cities).

Yeah, but the latitudes are further north than NYC/DC.

[US 89]

I'd venture that Denver and SLC might not feel so far apart if they weren't 370 miles apart as the crow flies and over 500 miles apart by road.

I have often likened Denver and SLC as "mirror images" of each other in several ways:

The bulk of each metropolitan area and nearby sizeable urban areas runs North/South along a single Interstate corridor and what little urban areas that run East/West  from the downtown areas are found along a single beltway route that runs about ¾ths of the way around town.

Both cities are at the foot of sizeable mountains on one side and no-mans land on the other, hence the majority of travel is usually north-south.  And as soon as you hit those areas, local traffic decreases very quickly, leaving just weekend getaway traffic and longer-distance travel.  Pass the airports on either interstate and it's like flipping a switch.

Each of the two cities are pretty much the only sizeable cities for 6+ hours/hundreds of miles in any direction by car.

Both towns can have very localized weather climates, compared to the rest of the region. 

I'm sure there are several other factoids that are shared by both cities, but those are the ones I'll start with.

And yes, I live in the Grand Junction area, thank you very much!

Not sure how they're a mirror of each other.  Physical geopgraphical similarities aside, both cities' composition and cultures are quite different.

Not really. You're conflating state-level politics and religion distributions. Salt Lake City proper and really the northern half of Salt Lake County is very Denver metro-like on a slightly smaller scale - and this has been a change in progress ever since the Olympics.

[MATraveler128]

It takes longer to drive from Mt. Washington, the westernmost part of Massachusetts to Provincetown at the tip of the Cape. (If there’s no traffic) than to drive to New York City from Boston.

[Rothman]

I'd venture that Denver and SLC might not feel so far apart if they weren't 370 miles apart as the crow flies and over 500 miles apart by road.

I have often likened Denver and SLC as "mirror images" of each other in several ways:

The bulk of each metropolitan area and nearby sizeable urban areas runs North/South along a single Interstate corridor and what little urban areas that run East/West  from the downtown areas are found along a single beltway route that runs about ¾ths of the way around town.

Both cities are at the foot of sizeable mountains on one side and no-mans land on the other, hence the majority of travel is usually north-south.  And as soon as you hit those areas, local traffic decreases very quickly, leaving just weekend getaway traffic and longer-distance travel.  Pass the airports on either interstate and it's like flipping a switch.

Each of the two cities are pretty much the only sizeable cities for 6+ hours/hundreds of miles in any direction by car.

Both towns can have very localized weather climates, compared to the rest of the region. 

I'm sure there are several other factoids that are shared by both cities, but those are the ones I'll start with.

And yes, I live in the Grand Junction area, thank you very much!

Not sure how they're a mirror of each other.  Physical geopgraphical similarities aside, both cities' composition and cultures are quite different.

Not really. You're conflating state-level politics and religion distributions. Salt Lake City proper and really the northern half of Salt Lake County is very Denver metro-like on a slightly smaller scale - and this has been a change in progress ever since the Olympics.

Nah.  Utahns may like to think so, but no.  As long as Temple Square and the LDS-owned businesses dominate SLC downtown, SLC and Denver will always be distinctively different. 

Reminds me of when my wife and I went to a comedy theater not so long ago in downtown SLC.  The "dry bar" comedy would have been out of place in Denver.

Utahns need to give up this "But we're really cool, too" wannabe nonsense and just embrace their peculiarity.