Washington

[ErmineNotyours]

The opposite of the first exits on I-5.  Since Washington is afraid of Exit Zero, we get Exits 1A, 1B, 1C and 1D in Vancouver.   

[jakeroot]

I thought this was cool. Tacoma is fairly well known for their "Court" alleys: Court A, Commerce, Court C, Court D. They're pretty darn wide, and as this image from 1968 shows (Richards Studio D154000-268, from Tacoma Public Library), Court A was wide enough to be striped as two lanes. It still acted as an alley, with stop signs at the major intersections and no signals or even crosswalks. I'm guessing the southbound left lane was primarily parking. Still, definitely never seen this before!

For traffic geeks, have fun counting all the little differences compared to today: one way streets, different markings, lots of double turns...

EDIT: the alley (Court A in this case) is the road second from the bottom-right in the image, and is one-way going towards the bottom-left of the image. The street on the bottom-right edge parallel with the alley is A St, and the image on the other side of the alley (the two way street) is Pacific Ave.

[SkyPesos]

The opposite of the first exits on I-5.  Since Washington is afraid of Exit Zero, we get Exits 1A, 1B, 1C and 1D in Vancouver.   

I thought high exit 1 suffixes are common, because of the lack of an exit 0. I-75 in Cincy goes up to 1G and I-170 in St. Louis goes up to 1F.

[Henry]

The opposite of the first exits on I-5.  Since Washington is afraid of Exit Zero, we get Exits 1A, 1B, 1C and 1D in Vancouver.   

I thought high exit 1 suffixes are common, because of the lack of an exit 0. I-75 in Cincy goes up to 1G and I-170 in St. Louis goes up to 1F.

I-277 in Charlotte goes up to 1E, and not only that, every damn exit number on that freeway has a suffix (well, except for 4).

[Bruce]

State legislature is now debating a $25.8 billion transportation package designed to last 16 years. Would be funded by a few sources, including a gas tax hike of 18 cents per gallon. (Source)

Among the projects on the preliminary list: attempt 2 at the Columbia River Crossing in Vancouver/Portland, hybrid electric ferries, replacement of the westbound US 2 trestle in Everett.

[kkt]

Good.  The Columbia River Crossing pretty much has to happen unless we want it to fall into the river at the next earthquake and obstruct shipping.  So's the US 2 trestle.  Too bad it depends so heavily on gas taxes, but it is what it is.

[jakeroot]

I read recently that the 99 tunnel is falling short of its expected earnings and may need to be bailed out. Probably a good indication that tolling isn't necessarily a great plan for major projects.

I am personally fine with a gas tax hike, but only because compared to other sources, it seems to be more reliable.

[The Ghostbuster]

I believe the tolls were implemented to keep the SR 99 tunnel from becoming congested. Depending on how much traffic would use the tunnel if it wasn't tolled, I'm sure it would see more congestion and possibly even gridlock. Of course, I have never been to Seattle and have no idea what area traffic flow is like, but I imagine the tunnel would not be a quick (even if expensive at times) bypass through downtown if it wasn't tolled.

[kkt]

At least tolling where there are free parallel routes isn't necessarily a great plan.   

But the 99 tunnel may start to get more traffic once Covid eases up and the other routes are more congested.

For myself I'd be okay with a gas tax, but there are a lot of not very well off people who are forced into long commutes by high rents in the city or need a truck for their work.

[SkyPesos]

At least tolling where there are free parallel routes isn't necessarily a great plan.   

*cough* Louisville

[stevashe]

State legislature is now debating a $25.8 billion transportation package designed to last 16 years. Would be funded by a few sources, including a gas tax hike of 18 cents per gallon. (Source)

Among the projects on the preliminary list: attempt 2 at the Columbia River Crossing in Vancouver/Portland, hybrid electric ferries, replacement of the westbound US 2 trestle in Everett.

While that news article is new, the document showing revenue sources and expenditures is from last February, so it's pretty out of date. It even shows impacts from I-976, which was thankfully ruled unconstitutional late last year, so I'd take that list with a big grain of salt; there will definitely be changes.

I read recently that the 99 tunnel is falling short of its expected earnings and may need to be bailed out. Probably a good indication that tolling isn't necessarily a great plan for major projects.

I think it was (probably) doing okay before COVID, but it's hard to say since that was only a few months. Regardless, COVID-related impacts to travel demand will be blamed before tolling itself so I wouldn't hold my breath about it changing any tolling plans, but I would be elated if the tolling plans for Puget Sound Gateway were dropped, maybe they could seek funding from a potential infrastructure stimulus instead?

I believe the tolls were implemented to keep the SR 99 tunnel from becoming congested. Depending on how much traffic would use the tunnel if it wasn't tolled, I'm sure it would see more congestion and possibly even gridlock. Of course, I have never been to Seattle and have no idea what area traffic flow is like, but I imagine the tunnel would not be a quick (even if expensive at times) bypass through downtown if it wasn't tolled.

We already know exactly what would happen since it was free for the first 9 months after it opened. I took it a few times during rush hour and it moved at ~20 mph at the slowest which is not great but certainly better than downtown streets, and that's just the worst-case scenario. Also, the toll is never expensive; it tops out at $2.25, which is pretty cheap even if you don't have Good-to-Go! and pay the extra $2 fee.

[Bruce]

A 1966 view of the Broadway Interchange in Everett, where I-5 now meets SR 99, SR 526 (not yet built), and SR 527. Bonus view of the 41st Street interchange, which remained relatively unchanged until WSDOT's reconstruction in the 2000s:

[jakeroot]

In many respects, I do believe I prefer the original 41st Street interchange. Not least because the old design didn't punish HOV traffic by forcing them through that seagull intersection with the 41st St connector road.

It is funny because, IMO, the new design with three signals has significantly more conflict points than the old design, yet WSDOT is all about reducing conflict points through DDIs and roundabouts. I really don't get it...

[stevashe]

In many respects, I do believe I prefer the original 41st Street interchange. Not least because the old design didn't punish HOV traffic by forcing them through that seagull intersection with the 41st St connector road.

It is funny because, IMO, the new design with three signals has significantly more conflict points than the old design, yet WSDOT is all about reducing conflict points through DDIs and roundabouts. I really don't get it...

I disagree with that. If you were basing your opinion just off the newspaper aerial then it isn't really apparent, but there are multiple points in the old configuration with weaving or cross traffic that no longer exist. Comparing just the amount of conflict points isn't really fair either since 41st street is a full exit now compared to being just half (to and from the north) before, and they did use a SPUI so that certainly jives with keeping conflict points down.

I certainly agree that making HOV traffic stop while general purpose gets a free ride is not ideal, but it still beats having to merge over through a wall of traffic if there wasn't an exit on the left! I've taken the HOV exit a few times (in peak afternoon traffic) and you don't have to wait long at the light even if it is red anyway. It is only a two-phase signal after all. Also - the old design only had the left-side offramp to Broadway so if WSDOT had kept that design when adding the HOV lane, I think that would have "punished" them more by making the HOV lane discontinuous similar to the Corson Ave left exit in South Seattle.

[jakeroot]

In many respects, I do believe I prefer the original 41st Street interchange. Not least because the old design didn't punish HOV traffic by forcing them through that seagull intersection with the 41st St connector road.

It is funny because, IMO, the new design with three signals has significantly more conflict points than the old design, yet WSDOT is all about reducing conflict points through DDIs and roundabouts. I really don't get it...

I disagree with that. If you were basing your opinion just off the newspaper aerial then it isn't really apparent, but there are multiple points in the old configuration with weaving or cross traffic that no longer exist. Comparing just the amount of conflict points isn't really fair either since 41st street is a full exit now compared to being just half (to and from the north) before, and they did use a SPUI so that certainly jives with keeping conflict points down.

I certainly agree that making HOV traffic stop while general purpose gets a free ride is not ideal, but it still beats having to merge over through a wall of traffic if there wasn't an exit on the left! I've taken the HOV exit a few times (in peak afternoon traffic) and you don't have to wait long at the light even if it is red anyway. It is only a two-phase signal after all. Also - the old design only had the left-side offramp to Broadway so if WSDOT had kept that design when adding the HOV lane, I think that would have "punished" them more by making the HOV lane discontinuous similar to the Corson Ave left exit in South Seattle.

So I have to admit: I actually didn't notice the right-side GP exit was missing from the original design. I can certainly see how the addition of that ramp, in addition to the HOV lanes being added to I-5 and the new HOV-only ramps, does make the whole interchange significantly better. However, looking a bit more deeply, I still don't fully agree that the new interchange was totally superior.

For one, the old interchange did allow northbound Broadway traffic to reach northbound I-5. The new design does not support this maneuver in any way. Second, the old interchange featured primarily right turns, with only a few maneuvers using left turns. Those that did use left turns were fairly quiet, apart from the eastbound 41st to northbound I-5 movement. Third, although weaving was more apparent in the old design, I would argue it wasn't necessarily a bad thing given that the weaving occurred along city streets that would have had low speeds, and several of the weaves were actually quite lengthy; the worst weaves could have easily been fixed through modifications elsewhere.

I would also argue that the old design was a full interchange. I suspect the old design had two separate exit numbers, but there were no missing movements: Broadway and 41st were equally accessible from I-5 no matter which direction you were proceeding, although a few of the movements were slightly more circuitous before than now.

Personally, I think a modified version of the original interchange design would have been the best option, even considering the eastern 41st St extension that had been in planning for years. Maybe I'll draw that up if I have some time. Certainly it would require a couple of new two-phase signals, and definitely some bridge replacements. But I don't think anything as dramatic as what was actually built was truly necessary. Especially since traffic to and from the west is far heavier than from the east, yet the SPUI treats them equally.

[Bruce]

Kitsap Sun is reporting on a $500 million proposal to fill the gap between SR 3 and SR 16 in Gorst with a freeway (behind a paywall):

https://twitter.com/joshfarley/status/1371491881662570514

[stevashe]

Kitsap Sun is reporting on a $500 million proposal to fill the gap between SR 3 and SR 16 in Gorst with a freeway (behind a paywall):

https://twitter.com/joshfarley/status/1371491881662570514

Wow. I had kind of assumed that the gap there would remain indefinitely since they went through the trouble of putting those flyovers in and there isn't much room for a freeway upgrade. Good to know they're at least looking at it.

[jakeroot]

Since I'll get in trouble, I'll just share the important bit:

For years, state lawmakers pushed a bridge over Sinclair Inlet as a solution for the traffic woes. But improving the intersection of highways 3 and 16 has emerged as the clear choice among the coalition because of fears Gorst is increasingly vulnerable in catastrophes and because of the rising economic importance of the area around Bremerton National Airport.

It calls for using a state Department of Transportation plan to elevate the highway through Gorst, making the corridor durable against storms, flooding and climate change, as well as earthquakes and tsunamis. A railroad trestle, long used by the Navy, could also be replaced and additional lane capacity added to alleviate traffic.

The rock cliffs at Windy Point and the railroad tracks northward make a tight squeeze north of Gorst. But that could also be helped by the project's additional lane if the funding is there.

[Rep Derek] Kilmer pointed out that he's been fighting for a congressional fund that serves transportation projects around military installations, and he sees promise in the Puget Sound Industrial Center and other burgeoning businesses near the Bremerton National Airport. Amazon, for instance, added a last-mile delivery center in the area this past year.

[jakeroot]

Now for my opinion:

Gorst is an eye-sore, and an entirely elevated SR-3/16 will only serve to worsen any remaining appeal.

Building a bridge over Sinclair Inlet (ideally Ross Point -> SR-3/Charleston Blvd interchange), and then improving the seawall and local connections in Gorst (esp. pedestrian flow) seems like the best option.

This would be a very expensive band-aid. One of the few projects I honestly think I'd rather they didn't go through with. Save the funds for a better, more permanent solution.

[jakeroot]

Threw this together out of frustration:

(full version)



EDIT: my description:

Talk of a bridge over the Sinclair Inlet in Bremerton, WA has persisted for decades. The current route between Tacoma and Bremerton passes through Gorst at the tip of the inlet, to the west. It is largely at-grade and not fit for the traffic that it handles.

This proposal conceptualizes a new bridge proceeding north from the WA-16/Tremont St/Old Clifton Rd interchange, passing through dense forest, before turning north-north-west at Ross Point, where it would cross the inlet. It would meet the WA-3/WA-304 (Charleston Blvd) interchange with a modified trumpet-style design, with movements kept north of the shoreline to limit the number of structural supports necessary in the water, and to avoid interfering with the railway line along the shore.

The current WA-3/WA-304 (Charleston Blvd) interchange is missing a southbound to eastbound movement; this proposal would add that missing movement.

Upgrading the entire route to freeway would qualify it for either a 60 or 70 mph speed limit.

Roads in the Gorst area would be narrowed considerably, with crosswalks added and the overall infrastructure heavily pedestrianized. The new through movement would be WA-3. The seawall would be improved to reduce flooding and business/highway damage.

edit 2: fixed to say "Tacoma to Bremerton" instead of "Gig Harbor".

[compdude787]

I like that idea for the bridge. It would be a great way to solve the problem in Gorst as well as the issue with WA 3 being so crammed on the north end of Sinclair Inlet. I don't think that that inlet is very deep compared to other parts of Puget Sound so I don't think building a bridge would be that difficult and it's past the naval shipyard so the navy wouldn't have any problems with a bridge being built there.

I'm surprised that the current proposal is to build an elevated highway through Gorst. Didn't we just tear down an elevated highway here in Washington?

[Bruce]

Construction has started on the US 12 expansion from Nine Mile Hill to Frenchtown near Walla Walla. 11 miles and two interchanges near Touchet. (Project page; Paywalled news report)



The final phase to Wallula (including a new interchange for US 730) only has funding for planning and ROW acquisition.

[compdude787]

So, is this basically going to be built as a freeway, or are there still going to be at-grade intersections? If so, that would be neat.

[jakeroot]

I like that idea for the bridge. It would be a great way to solve the problem in Gorst as well as the issue with WA 3 being so crammed on the north end of Sinclair Inlet. I don't think that that inlet is very deep compared to other parts of Puget Sound so I don't think building a bridge would be that difficult and it's past the naval shipyard so the navy wouldn't have any problems with a bridge being built there.

I'm surprised that the current proposal is to build an elevated highway through Gorst. Didn't we just tear down an elevated highway here in Washington?

Yeah, I don't think a bridge across the Sinclair Inlet would be exceptionally difficult. It is relatively shallow compared to other parts of Puget Sound. I'm sure the catalyst for such a bridge would have been a freeway to/from Vashon, but traffic growth along 16 and the increasing issues in Gorst may be highlighting the need for a modern-day reconsideration of a bridge across the inlet.

I would quite like to see some rough sketches of their plans. I simply cannot grasp what an elevated highway might look like. The best I can envision is something like the Spokane Street Viaduct...which is honestly not something I would want to build elsewhere, if at all possible.

[jakeroot]

So, is this basically going to be built as a freeway, or are there still going to be at-grade intersections? If so, that would be neat.

This PDF shows a bit more detail about each crossing. The plan seems to be freeway. With any luck, WSDOT will post a 70mph speed limit to all of US-12, from Burbank to Walla Walla, once all phases are complete.

Construction has started on the US 12 expansion from Nine Mile Hill to Frenchtown near Walla Walla. 11 miles and two interchanges near Touchet. (Project page; Paywalled news report)



The final phase to Wallula (including a new interchange for US 730) only has funding for planning and ROW acquisition.

I believe this is the first new-construction freeway-grade road WSDOT has built since the US-395 freeway in Spokane.