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Author Topic: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown  (Read 42600 times)

jerryarkansas

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bwana39

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2021, 03:10:21 PM »

That's not just a crack! Yikes!

https://www.fox13memphis.com/news/local/no-timeline-when-i-40-bridge-could-reopen-officials-say/6GIZ3HIP7VF3ZCK3KGTFUY5HVQ/

On one of the slides they called it a fracture. I think the issue is how to replace that element without the whole thing coming down. This piece of what looks like box beam is what the suspension rods from the upper truss connect to. It is too close to the adjacent gussett plate to add just a patch in the  the same way.  I would assume that the joints, either welded or connected with rivets, were made under the supports probably with a nominally smaller tube inside extended several feet either direction. 

This bridge weighs significantly more with the deck and the other details that were added after the truss structure was finished. I think it can be repaired, but it may rival the rebuild of the Huey Long bridge in Jefferson Parish.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 03:25:00 PM by bwana39 »
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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2021, 03:16:47 PM »

A southern crossing of I-269 isn't just about gamblers.  It's a very valid ALT for I-40 looping south and then west to get back on the way to Little Rock.  I-269 is done all the way around the east and south side of Memphis.  On the north side, the future 269 (TN 385) dead ends at US 51.  You've still got miles to get to the river.
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On the south side, you have no environmental issues with a park, neighborhoods, etc.  It's flat, it's undeveloped, it's easy to get back to 55 and/or the 40/55 intersection, or even further west on 40, with a spur up to the 40/55 intersection.
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sprjus4

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2021, 03:29:48 PM »

Problem is, nobody in their right mind is going to head that far south to bypass Memphis just to come back north. It would add too much time to be an effective bypass. North actually has potential.
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US71

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2021, 03:48:53 PM »

That's not just a crack! Yikes!

https://www.fox13memphis.com/news/local/no-timeline-when-i-40-bridge-could-reopen-officials-say/6GIZ3HIP7VF3ZCK3KGTFUY5HVQ/

Almost like calling a hurricane a slight breeze. That is definitely worrysome. Hard to believe it just "appeared" in the last year or two.
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MikieTimT

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2021, 04:06:09 PM »

Problem is, nobody in their right mind is going to head that far south to bypass Memphis just to come back north. It would add too much time to be an effective bypass. North actually has potential.

That's assuming that a large chunk of the traffic is I-40 continuing on I-40.  I know that I have always taken I-55 South to get through Memphis to either go across northern US-72 to visit family in NE Mississippi, or along I-22 to go to Florida/Alabama to the beach from Arkansas.  There's a fair amount of population in the middle part of the US that takes that same route to Florida or Alabama as the alternative is a great number of miles on US highways in depressed parts of Arkansas and Mississippi, or swinging south to I-10, which adds a fair amount of mileage.
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triplemultiplex

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2021, 04:06:33 PM »

"There's your problem, right there:"
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bwana39

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2021, 04:12:17 PM »

Problem is, nobody in their right mind is going to head that far south to bypass Memphis just to come back north. It would add too much time to be an effective bypass. North actually has potential.

I would agree with you on  I-40 as a through route.  This MIGHT be the one time that a northern loop MIGHT be able to get through the muck.
On a southern route, I -55 to I-55 is great. I-22 to I-40 is great.  Adding an additional emergency route (as opposed to a redundant route) is worthwhile.
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sprjus4

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2021, 04:26:07 PM »

^

That is a true point.

In a perfect world, I-269 should cross the Mississippi River both north and south.
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roadman65

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Hernando Desoto Bridge Closed
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2021, 04:47:16 PM »

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Sheryl Crowe

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2021, 05:05:34 PM »

"There's your problem, right there:"

Yeaaah...that's no good. They'll need to replace that entire structural member before they reopen the bridge. It's doable...take a look at how they replaced all of the structural members in the Chicago Skyway while keeping it open to traffic. For the Chicago Skyway refurbishment, they replaced structural members by placing temporary assemblies consisting of saddles and tie rods--called "chords"-- around the structural member to be replaced. The load was transferred to the chords while the original structural member was cut away and a new structural member was installed. Afterward, the chord was removed, and work proceeded to the next structural member to be replaced.

But...they'll need to perform a complete end-to-end inspection to make sure there are no additional structural cracks before re-opening the bridge.
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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2021, 05:14:57 PM »

When I was in Memphis on I-55 two months ago, I-55 traffic was backed up for about a third or so of that particular bridge, on a Saturday afternoon. According to this screenshot of Google Maps traffic, it is much, much worse.



Basically, This situation is made so much worse by the one lane, TOTSO setup on I-55.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 09:49:51 PM by ozarkman417 »
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roadman65

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Re: Hernando Desoto Bridge Closed
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2021, 05:15:45 PM »

Yeah I looked for it here, but didn’t see it.

Okay I see it falls under mid south.  Southeast should be Eastern Tennessee not Tennessee.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 05:22:11 PM by roadman65 »
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Sheryl Crowe

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2021, 05:37:53 PM »

Maybe they should twin the existing I-40 bridge and build a new parallel span since the current bridge doesn't have shoulders in its current 6 lane configuration and set both bridges as 8 lanes with 4 lanes in each direction.
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bwana39

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2021, 05:46:24 PM »


Basically, This situation is made so much worse by the one lane, TOTSO setup on I-55.

It doesn't help any, but THIS TIME, for the I-40 through traffic, it actually is a help that Crump BLVD is through as it is the probable path for the majority of the traffic.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=20377.msg2603607#msg2603607 Is a whole thread about the intersection. It is pending upgrade, but that has been postponed a couple of times.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 05:49:30 PM by bwana39 »
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abqtraveler

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2021, 06:15:17 PM »


Basically, This situation is made so much worse by the one lane, TOTSO setup on I-55.

It doesn't help any, but THIS TIME, for the I-40 through traffic, it actually is a help that Crump BLVD is through as it is the probable path for the majority of the traffic.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=20377.msg2603607#msg2603607 Is a whole thread about the intersection. It is pending upgrade, but that has been postponed a couple of times.

This incident will probably light a fire under TDOT's butt to get the I-55/Crump interchange reconfiguration done. It's a similar situation where the Ohio River Bridges project between Louisville, Kentucky and southern Indiana was stalled until structural cracks forced the closure of the Sherman Minton Bridge that carries I-64 over the Ohio River. The Sherman Minton Bridge has a design that is very similar to the Hernando DeSoto Bridge. When the Sherman Minton Bridge got shut down, things started moving very quickly to get the Ohio River Bridges project underway, and now that project is complete.
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Wayward Memphian

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2021, 07:40:19 PM »

A southern crossing of I-269 isn't just about gamblers.  It's a very valid ALT for I-40 looping south and then west to get back on the way to Little Rock.  I-269 is done all the way around the east and south side of Memphis.  On the north side, the future 269 (TN 385) dead ends at US 51.  You've still got miles to get to the river.
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On the south side, you have no environmental issues with a park, neighborhoods, etc.  It's flat, it's undeveloped, it's easy to get back to 55 and/or the 40/55 intersection, or even further west on 40, with a spur up to the 40/55 intersection.


It has nothing to do with Gambling. West Memphis won in the end for the most part.

It benefits Ark more economically for the Southern end to be done first or if only one was built. I would make sure the feed off of I-40 would be nearly the Super Site and the intermodal yard.  A southern bridge would allow that to flow to North Ms where all the newer DC s are being built and also make the Arkansas side more attractive. As it would be the defacto best routing between the intermodal in Marion with the one in Rossville TN and the one along Lamar Ave in Memphis. It would also allow the quickest way for Memphis to fix their end of the Old Bridge.


A Southern Bridge at Memphis and combining that with a 6 lane I-40 between Little Rock and Memphis make I-69 and it's bridge much less necessary.


Now imagine if this fracture was found after they had shut down the old bridge like TN wanted to do to do that job.
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MikeTheActuary

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2021, 08:09:38 PM »

You know....growing up in Memphis as a roadgeek and lover of maps, with a father who worked for the local planning office and let me decorate my room with spare long-range planning maps from his office, I dreamed up additional Mississippi River crossings and got to see what the professionals were tossing around.

At that time...over 30 years ago...development projections, through traffic flows, environmental concerns, and geology all pointed to a southern crossing being more likely than a northern crossing...although lack of funding and environmental issues make either extremely improbable.

When I was doodling, I had a new I-55 extending south from the I-40/I-55 junction, crossing at President's Island, hooking in to the "elbow" of existing I-55 in Memphis...but that was probably my doodling informed by my father's critiquing than informed knowledge.   I-269/I-69 in Mississippi wasn't a thing then (the closest thing on the MPO wishlist was a parkway just north of the MS/TN stateline, part of a system of which only the northern and eastern segments, now TN 385/I-269, got built)....but I suspect if they were to ever build a southern bridge, it would now hook into I-69 near the casinos, rather than the I-55 "elbow".
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US71

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2021, 08:19:08 PM »

"There's your problem, right there:"


That's no "crack": that is structural failure from where I sit,
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ilpt4u

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2021, 08:35:19 PM »

I find it interesting that the inspector that found the fracture (not calling that a “crack”) called 911 to get Memphis/TN Officials/Police to close the Tennessee approach

From the call, he IDs himself as a bridge inspector with ArDOT and his superiors agreed that the bridge needs closed, immediately...but I just don’t expect your average 911 Dispatcher getting the “Close the Interstate Bridge” call very often.

I imagine there is a bit of protocol for a 911 Dispatcher before that call is connected to either State or City Police to begin the process of closing an Interstate Mississippi River Bridge

I listened to both 911 calls at this site: https://www.kark.com/news/local-news/we-need-to-get-people-off-the-bridge-as-soon-as-possible-hear-bridge-crews-frantic-911-calls-after-i-40-bridge-crack-found/

Almost sounds like in the first call, that the 911 Dispatcher almost thought this was a blow off/prank call. Hard to tell how seriously she took the report

The second call, the 911 Dispatcher at least wanted more information, and clearly points out she needs more information and authorization before she can forward the request to shut down the Interstate River Bridge, and even gets a contact number fron the reporting inspector of an ArDOT Official to check the backstory out
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 08:56:30 PM by ilpt4u »
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MikeTheActuary

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2021, 08:43:16 PM »

Not sure whether this is paywalled, but.... https://dailymemphian.com/section/metro/article/21880/i-40-mississippi-river-bridge-could-be-closed-months#/questions

(The Daily Memphian is an online newspaper founded by journalists let go from the Commercial Appeal as its newsroom was decimated.)

No significant update to what's already been said here, but on the subject of a third bridge, it's written:

Quote
The idea of building a third bridge across the Mississippi has been under discussion, off and on, for many years.

Bobby White, chief public policy officer for the Greater Memphis Chamber, said the I-40 bridge closure may help bring those discussions back to the forefront of the community’s consciousness.

“It’s absolutely critical for economic development, not only for the community, but for the country,” White said. “We’ve been trying to reboot that.”

The 2006 third bridge study discussed several potential routes, with costs ranging from $501 million to $709 million for cars, plus $332 million to $443 million for a bridge designed to accommodate trains as well. However, those were estimates given in 2010 dollars.

At the news briefing, Degges said the actual construction cost would be $1.5 billion “if it’s a nickel.”

Information on the third bridge study can be found here: https://www.tdot.tn.gov/PublicDocuments/TransportationStudies/MRCstudy.pdf

It, of course, creates a mockery of my prior post, by seeming to prefer a northern crossing hooking into TN-300/to-be-built I-69.
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ilpt4u

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2021, 09:18:26 PM »

^^^^^^^^ That TDOT 3rd Bridge Study looked at a corridor between the Western 40-55 Split in Arkansas and the (future) I-69 stub leading to I-40 north of Memphis as a possible option

Good to know the professionals that get paid to do this stuff, saw that as an obvious opportunity for a corridor and MS River Crossing. Heck, if it were ever built, I’d route mainline I-40 onto it

I only skimmed the report - but it doesn’t look like they really looked at a Northern 269 crossing, at least not in any of the diagrammed/drawn alternatives
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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2021, 09:34:49 PM »

Never been to Memphis, but this looks pretty bad from a traffic perspective.

From a bridge engineering point of view, which I am not qualified to speak to, except it reminds me to some extent of the closure of the Turnpike Bridge (formerly I-276, now I-95) between Pennsylvania and New Jersey over the Delaware River in 2017.  The owners were fortunate that the fracture on that bridge was over dry land.  No such luck here.

There's no freeway connection  between the westbound I-40 closure point and access to I-55 northbound (really westbound here) to get across the river. I suppose the suggested detour will be I-240 to I-55?

The I-40 Hernando Desoto Bridge is six lanes wide. The I-55 Memphis Arkansas Bridge is only four lanes, and at the east end, traffic must go through what looks like a pretty elderly cloverleaf interchange (as discussed above).

All of which will be interesting to see how Tennessee and Arkansas deal with the closure.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 09:40:06 PM by cpzilliacus »
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ilpt4u

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2021, 09:48:01 PM »

Never been to Memphis, but this looks pretty bad from a traffic perspective.

There's no freeway connection  between the westbound I-40 closure point and access to I-55 northbound (really westbound here) to get across the river. I suppose the suggested detour will be I-240 to I-55?
I would hope TDOT is using VMSs along WB I-40, before reaching I-240, to have Arkansas-bound traffic use I-240 South as the preferred alternate to get to the I-55 bridge

And for EB I-40, use VMSs on I-55 South advising I-40 EB traffic to follow I-240 EB

If Arkansas wanted to get really creative, it could advise Long Distance EB I-40 traffic at Little Rock to use US 67/Future I-57 to US 412 to reach the I-155/US 412 Bridge, and follow US 412 back to I-40 in Tennessee. Tennessee could sign the same Long Distance detour for WB I-40 traffic approaching Jackson, TN
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 09:51:13 PM by ilpt4u »
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