Metrication

[Bruce]

I found a km marker on a rural highway in Asotin County, WA today:

[Scott5114]

I think that temperatures would be better based on Celsius, because it would be uniform.

Why is being uniform important? It is not like I am going to take my 102°F weather to Finland with me when I travel there.

[1995hoo]

I think that temperatures would be better based on Celsius, because it would be uniform.

That argument holds no logic at all. If all the countries other than the US switched to Fahrenheit, it would also be uniform. Same would be true if every country used Kelvin instead (although I'm not suggesting that would make any sense as a practical matter). You're just spouting off another one of your little one-line comments boiling down to your usual position of, "This is better because I say so."

[mgk920]

For average people, what could be simpler than 'water freezes at '0' and (at sea level) boils at '100'?  That's what I first figured out by myself when I was in first grade (and I had to be retaught in 'F' later).

Mike

[Poiponen13]

I think that temperatures would be better based on Celsius, because it would be uniform.

Why is being uniform important? It is not like I am going to take my 102°F weather to Finland with me when I travel there.

The reason is that nearly all other countries use Celsius (and km), and US being an outlier is the thing I don't like. Why it shall be just US and some other country? Celsius is better because it logically puts zero to freezing and temperatures below freezing are always negative. Kilometer is better because smaller units are 1,000ths of it and larger units are it multiplied by 1,000. Also, most countries use DayMonthYear format, but US uses MonthDayYear format instead. The DayMonthYear puts units in order from smallest to largest, unlike MonthDayYear.

[MikeTheActuary]

For average people, what could be simpler than 'water freezes at '0' and (at sea level) boils at '100'?  That's what I first figured out by myself when I was in first grade (and I had to be retaught in 'F' later).

Arguably, Fahrenheit is simple and sensible if you consider the following oversimplifications:
0°F is the temperature below which it is dangerously cold for humans
100°F is the temperature above which it is dangerously hot for humans
Therefore, temperature in °F is the proportion of the way between "dangerously cold" and "dangerously hot".

My late father also used to argue that US customary units of length and area were superior to Metric because they were human-centric:

• An inch is about the length between the tip of a thumb and the knuckle
  
• A foot is about the length of a human foot.
  
• A mile is about the distance you would travel in an hour if you were plowing with a single ox.
  
• A league is about the distance you would travel in an hour at a normal walking pace.
  
• An acre is about the amount of land you can plow with a single ox in a day.
  

[bandit957]

I think I once read that a meter was designed to be a certain fraction of the distance between the Equator and the North Pole, but after the meter was established, it turned out it was off by quite a bit.

The average person when measuring lengths was not concerned with how the length compared with the size of the world but with how it compared with neighboring plots of land.

[hotdogPi]

A meter is about arm's reach.

[Rothman]

A meter is about arm's reach.

A cubit is from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger.

[kkt]

I think I once read that a meter was designed to be a certain fraction of the distance between the Equator and the North Pole, but after the meter was established, it turned out it was off by quite a bit.

The average person when measuring lengths was not concerned with how the length compared with the size of the world but with how it compared with neighboring plots of land.

The original concept was one meter = 1 /10,000,000 of the distance from the equator to the north pole, through the Paris meridian.  They measured it and their measure was pretty accurate, given the difficulties of surveying a great circle distance over mountains..  Very few purposes would require something more precise - but that is why the meter is now defined using distance light travels in a vacuum.

[LilianaUwU]

• An inch is about the length between the tip of a thumb and the knuckle
  

I feel the need to mention here that "thumb" and "inch" are both "pouce" in French, hence this comparison.

[Scott5114]

I think that temperatures would be better based on Celsius, because it would be uniform.

Why is being uniform important? It is not like I am going to take my 102°F weather to Finland with me when I travel there.

The reason is that nearly all other countries use Celsius (and km), and US being an outlier is the thing I don't like.

If the best reason you can come up with is "I don't like it", then it only takes one other person who does like it to cancel your opinion out.

Celsius is better because it logically puts zero to freezing and temperatures below freezing are always negative.

Sure, it's a nice feature of Celsius that you can tell that temperatures below 0 are freezing. However, consider this: at some point you were taught that temperatures below 0 are freezing. At that same point, Americans were taught that temperatures below 32 are freezing. This is something we don't actually have to think about, because it's something we've all known since we were in primary school, and it comes as automatic to us as the times tables or how to use a pencil.

What makes metric great is that you can convert between units very easily (this is why I use cm and mm as much as I can despite being American, because I like that feature). But Celsius doesn't have that ability; there's no millicelsius or centicelsius or whatever. So, really, the only benefits Celsius has is uniformity (not really much of a perk if you don't travel between countries often) and that 0 and 100 have semantic meaning (not really all that useful if you already have the Fahrenheit equivalents of 32 and 212 memorized).

Kilometer is better because smaller units are 1,000ths of it and larger units are it multiplied by 1,000.

This is true (and dividing by 5280 is such a pain in the ass nobody even attempts it; we just say things like "½ mile" rather than "2640 feet"), but the thing that makes km usage in the US unlikely isn't because of the division, but because the country was physically built using a mile-based surveying system.

Take a look at this utterly typical section of rural land south of Woodward, Oklahoma:


That grid of roads is built exactly 1 mile apart. That means you can easily determine the distance between any two points on it just by counting the grid squares. Of course, you can't do that with kilometers, you have to actually measure.

Also, most countries use DayMonthYear format, but US uses MonthDayYear format instead. The DayMonthYear puts units in order from smallest to largest, unlike MonthDayYear.

The standard date format is actually ISO 8601, which is YYYY-MM-DD. It puts the units in order from largest to smallest, which has the benefit of an alphabetic sort also sorting the dates in order.

[hotdogPi]

I mentioned an advantage of Celsius before: people in the US mention setting their thermostats to 68°F or 70°F or 72°F – these are approximately 1°C increments; 1°C is approximately the smallest meaningful unit.

(For evidence that is actually the case: Google Image Search showing many examples; note the lack of 69 and 71)

[HighwayStar]

Nope, the US should not go metric, and should roll back some of the metric uses there are currently.

The big selling point of the metric system was always its supposed superiority for ease of calculations, but we all carry around very powerful calculators today and most calculation is done by machine anyway so who cares at this point.

The Imperial-Standard-Customary-US system is actually a much better system for everyday use. As a system that evolved from human centered units and needs it works much better for things we measure day to day. A foot is a very handy unit, most objects in a room are well described in feet, the number ends up small enough to picture but large enough to avoid the need for decimals or fractions. Same applies to the inch. Metric systems usually have meters which are basically fine as yards, but the centimeter is too small to be good at measuring many every day items and the decimeter has always felt like a redheaded step child.

I love my US system, and I can always use metric if I need to, but there is no benefit of forcing everyone to use a system which is not human oriented for human purposes.

Also, to kill the shrinkflation BS, food should be mandated to be sold in even US units. Sell a gallon, half gallon, quart, pint, or even cup of ice cream, but none of this 3.489546 quarts BS. Get rid of shrinking containers that screw up my recipes too, a can should be 16 oz, 8 oz, 4 oz, or even 2 oz, but never 14.5 oz.

[LilianaUwU]

Nope, the US should not go metric, and should roll back some of the metric uses there are currently.

The big selling point of the metric system was always its supposed superiority for ease of calculations, but we all carry around very powerful calculators today and most calculation is done by machine anyway so who cares at this point.

The Imperial-Standard-Customary-US system is actually a much better system for everyday use. As a system that evolved from human centered units and needs it works much better for things we measure day to day. A foot is a very handy unit, most objects in a room are well described in feet, the number ends up small enough to picture but large enough to avoid the need for decimals or fractions. Same applies to the inch. Metric systems usually have meters which are basically fine as yards, but the centimeter is too small to be good at measuring many every day items and the decimeter has always felt like a redheaded step child.

I love my US system, and I can always use metric if I need to, but there is no benefit of forcing everyone to use a system which is not human oriented for human purposes.

Also, to kill the shrinkflation BS, food should be mandated to be sold in even US units. Sell a gallon, half gallon, quart, pint, or even cup of ice cream, but none of this 3.489546 quarts BS. Get rid of shrinking containers that screw up my recipes too, a can should be 16 oz, 8 oz, 4 oz, or even 2 oz, but never 14.5 oz.

The metric system wasn't decided upon by drunk mathematicians rolling dice.

[jakeroot]

The Imperial-Standard-Customary-US system is actually a much better system for everyday use. As a system that evolved from human centered units and needs it works much better for things we measure day to day. A foot is a very handy unit, most objects in a room are well described in feet, the number ends up small enough to picture but large enough to avoid the need for decimals or fractions. Same applies to the inch. Metric systems usually have meters which are basically fine as yards, but the centimeter is too small to be good at measuring many every day items and the decimeter has always felt like a redheaded step child.

Doesn't "too small" when it comes to measurements just translate to "more accurate"?

I understand off-hand measurements being easier in feet ("this car is roughly 20 feet long") but actual (measured) measurements are almost always going to be in a smaller unit, like inches, cm, or mm. The exception, oddly, being things that are not human-scale, like building height, or length of a bridge... but then even those will be more accurate in a smaller scale.

Keeping feet around for off-hand measurements is also allowed, you know. Here in Japan, we are totally metric, but that doesn't stop people from measuring rooms by tatami's.

[1995hoo]

A meter is about arm's reach.

A cubit is from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger.

I use cubits to communicate with other drivers.

[jakeroot]

Take a look at this utterly typical section of rural land south of Woodward, Oklahoma:


That grid of roads is built exactly 1 mile apart. That means you can easily determine the distance between any two points on it just by counting the grid squares. Of course, you can't do that with kilometers, you have to actually measure.

Even in a metric system, it would be acceptable to measure these survey squares in miles. There is nothing stopping customary units from being used in-tandem with metric units in everyday life.

Most countries have their own local measurement system. That doesn't mean those local units ceased to exist, or that people stopped using them, when metric was adopted. It just became the "other" way of measuring. But for everyone else, having a uniform measurement system that they likely already know (in theory, Metric is understood by 95% of the world's population) is much easier than learning a whole new system.

edit: reworded second paragraph intro.

[bandit957]

Doesn't Belize still use miles on its road signs?

[kalvado]

I think I once read that a meter was designed to be a certain fraction of the distance between the Equator and the North Pole, but after the meter was established, it turned out it was off by quite a bit.

The average person when measuring lengths was not concerned with how the length compared with the size of the world but with how it compared with neighboring plots of land.

The original concept was one meter = 1 /10,000,000 of the distance from the equator to the north pole, through the Paris meridian.  They measured it and their measure was pretty accurate, given the difficulties of surveying a great circle distance over mountains..  Very few purposes would require something more precise - but that is why the meter is now defined using distance light travels in a vacuum.

As far as I know, length of 2 second pendulum -1 second for one way swing - was attempted original definition. Unfortunately gravity isn't uniform enough...

[Scott5114]

Even in a metric system, it would be acceptable to measure these survey squares in miles. There is nothing stopping customary units from being used in-tandem with metric units in everyday life.

I think most countries had their own local measurement system before going metric. That doesn't mean those local units ceased to exist, or that people stopped using them. It just became the "other" way of measuring. But for everyone else, having a uniform measurement system that they likely already know (in theory, Metric is understood by 95% of the world's population) is much easier than learning a whole new system.

Sure, but I imagine it would make signage for these grids a little more annoying. (Probably. I haven't touched I-19 yet to see how ADOT does it.)

Anyway, the length units are probably the metric units I use the most (though I do tend to weigh food in grams, and measure liquids in mL because I cannot for the life of me remember the relationships pints/quarts/ounces/drachmas/whatever have to each other)  so if we converted I'd shrug and not a whole lot would change for me. The only metric unit I actively dislike is degrees Celsius.

[7/8]

Sure, but in the United States people tend to quote outdoor air temperatures in a 10°F range. "Highs in the 70s" is a lot easier to say than "Highs between 20 and 25 degrees" (or something like "highs around 23°", which implies a level of precision that may not be intended).

You could say "Highs in the lower 20s" with Celsius, but when you do that with Fahrenheit, you get something that's a lot closer to your 2° range when accounting for forecast uncertainty.

But even "the 70's" is a decent range of temperature. Personally I would group Celsius into low, mid, and high, that works fine for me.

I'll admit though Farenheit is probably the most tolerable US measurement since there's no complicated conversion like most of the other units (ex: 5280' in a mile).

(Regarding learning Celsius gradations, BTW, I heard an old poem that's useful: "0 is freezing, 10 is not. 20 is room temperature and 30 is hot." I might quibble that 30 is "hot"–it's 86°F–but the principle is reasonable on the whole.)

Nah, 30C is definitely hot.
- Signed by a Canadian

[JKRhodes]

(Regarding learning Celsius gradations, BTW, I heard an old poem that's useful: "0 is freezing, 10 is not. 20 is room temperature and 30 is hot." I might quibble that 30 is "hot"–it's 86°F–but the principle is reasonable on the whole.)

Nah, 30C is definitely hot.
- Signed by a Canadian

And that's when someone from Arizona materializes and screams "YoU hAvEn'T eXpErIeNcEd ReAl HeAt!" 

Kidding aside, I use a mixture of imperial and metric units routinely. If I'm maintaining a high volume pump system, it's easier to track in gallons per minute, feet of head pressure, pounds per square inch, etc. But in a low volume application such as a grease dispenser it makes more sense to say a bearing is getting fed "2.4 mL every 20 minutes."

Personally, if I get dehydrated, I might say I've lost five pounds of water weight, and in the same breath indicate that my last urine output was dark and less than 200 mL.

I've noticed doctors here tend to record things almost exclusively in metric, converting to imperial to assist patient understanding when needed.

[kkt]

Take a look at this utterly typical section of rural land south of Woodward, Oklahoma:


That grid of roads is built exactly 1 mile apart. That means you can easily determine the distance between any two points on it just by counting the grid squares. Of course, you can't do that with kilometers, you have to actually measure.

Even in a metric system, it would be acceptable to measure these survey squares in miles. There is nothing stopping customary units from being used in-tandem with metric units in everyday life.

Most countries have their own local measurement system. That doesn't mean those local units ceased to exist, or that people stopped using them, when metric was adopted. It just became the "other" way of measuring. But for everyone else, having a uniform measurement system that they likely already know (in theory, Metric is understood by 95% of the world's population) is much easier than learning a whole new system.

edit: reworded second paragraph intro.

Oh, yes, I'm sure our Public Lands Survey System will still be used for as long as there are people who are interested in who owns what land.  They're in millions of deeds all over the country.

However, also be aware that the feet and inches used in land surveys are not exactly the currect feet and inches we use everyday.  Land was surveyed in old feet and inches (and rods and all the rest of it) which are just a tad shorter than the modern feet and inches we agreed upon with the UK as 25.4 mm. 

[Duke87]

Frankly at this point the idea of the US formally going metric is in line with the idea of switching to counting in base 12 or of switching keyboards to the Dvorak layout: while there are objective benefits to it, the cost of making the change both in terms of money and in terms of everyone needing to retrain their brains is so high that the effort will not pay for itself (figuratively or literally) in any reasonable time frame, and any suggestions of actually doing it are not taken seriously by any normal people.


One of the biggest arguments in favor of metrication - that it is more efficient for business if the measurements used match those of other countries - doesn't really apply to the US in the same way as it might to somewhere like the Netherlands because the US has 335 million people, more than any other country not named China or India. With 335 million people, we're already a very large market on our own, so there isn't a whole lot of economy of scale benefit to be realized by better synchronizing measurement standards with other countries.

Not to mention that places where there is benefit to be achieved have often quietly gone and metricated of their own accord. The automotive industry, for example, has been specing the sizes of bolts and whatnot in metric for decades so that they can use the same bolts in cars sold in the US as in cars sold in other countries. And the 12 ounce cans we sell beer and soda in? The same exact can design is used in other countries, except you'll find it labeled 350 ml which is close enough (the actual conversion is ~354.9 ml) to be within acceptable rounding errors. The labeling on the cans will be different in different countries anyway so there's nothing to be gained by synchronizing the measurements printed on them.