Washington

[kkt]

Yes.  It's not really a business loop, it's just a C/D with an easy re-entrance to the mainline.  More like Sacramento's Capitol Freeway that anything (neither should be signed as businesses routes!).

[Bickendan]

A BL I-5 sign has gone up in the collector-distributor lanes in Downtown Seattle. (source)

Another one has gone up before the exit. A sign with both I-90 and BL-5 on it. I have no idea if this a legit business loop or not (I doubt it), but if it is, this is the first business loop in Washington for years. The only other extant BL is BL I-5 in Castle Rock (to my knowledge).
This situation in downtown Seattle is unusual, because by default, BL's in Washington are not maintained by the state. However, since this one is the northbound C/D lanes, it is state maintained.
I have no idea why suddenly WSDOT put this up. The only thought I have is maybe they want to encourage traffic to use the C/D lanes, to take pressure off the NB mainline? Maybe drivers from out of town aren't aware that the exit to Dearborn/ James/ Madison does in fact return to I-5.

If the C/D lanes are in fact signed as a unique Business 5 loop, then that would be the first instance of such signage (or formal designation, which I doubt) on that particular freeway configuration -- and the first time such methodology has been applied.

In North America, to be sure.
Barcelona has an express/local configuration on one of their motorways, with AP-7 as the mainline (tolled?) express and B-30 as the local C/D.

[mrsman]

A BL I-5 sign has gone up in the collector-distributor lanes in Downtown Seattle. (source)

Another one has gone up before the exit. A sign with both I-90 and BL-5 on it. I have no idea if this a legit business loop or not (I doubt it), but if it is, this is the first business loop in Washington for years. The only other extant BL is BL I-5 in Castle Rock (to my knowledge).
This situation in downtown Seattle is unusual, because by default, BL's in Washington are not maintained by the state. However, since this one is the northbound C/D lanes, it is state maintained.
I have no idea why suddenly WSDOT put this up. The only thought I have is maybe they want to encourage traffic to use the C/D lanes, to take pressure off the NB mainline? Maybe drivers from out of town aren't aware that the exit to Dearborn/ James/ Madison does in fact return to I-5.

If the C/D lanes are in fact signed as a unique Business 5 loop, then that would be the first instance of such signage (or formal designation, which I doubt) on that particular freeway configuration -- and the first time such methodology has been applied.

In North America, to be sure.
Barcelona has an express/local configuration on one of their motorways, with AP-7 as the mainline (tolled?) express and B-30 as the local C/D.

Correct.  This is unique.  Biz-5 is inappropriate since it doesn't become a surface street.  These lanes are essentially local lanes, but they can't be signed as such because express lanes in this area have a specific meaning.  There are already express lanes that provide very few exits and are reversilble.  (IN other areas of the country these lanes are often restricted to HOV or toll).  Then there are general lanes that usually meet every exit.  Here is a third set of lanes designed to access the three streets but can also be used to continue north on I-5.  THe average person does know the meaning of C-D lanes.

If it were me, I'd sign it as "TO I-5 north" with a regular shield.  Traffic headed north of town should stay on the regular lanes, but if for some reason they can't get there (traffic) they can rest assured that they can keep right and use these lanes and they wont be forced to exit onto surface streets.

[jakeroot]

Here's the other sign preceding the one above. Much cleaner but still as controversial...

[Alps]

There are Business freeway loops elsewhere (Sacramento, NC), but this would be the first time a Business route never leaves its parent's right of way! (Even frontage road BRs eventually head off into town.)

[Max Rockatansky]

I'm noticing a huge amount of oddities on this current trip in Washington:

-  What is up with the hyper-slow speed limits?  60 MPH for freeways like I-5, WA 509 and WA 16 are an absolute joke outside of the primary urban centers of Seattle/Tacoma.  Most of the surface highways are 35-40 MPH with top speeds of 50 MPH from what I've observed.

-  There are a ton of uni-signs and shields placed on small BGSs.  It looks like most of the shields are at least 25 years old and sorely need to be replaced.

-  I would have thought (granted this is the fourth time I've been to Washington) that shoulder widths would have been much more generous on state highways given the gloomy winter weather.  On two-lane highways this seems to be extremely problematic as there is almost nowhere to pull over in an emergency.

-  Urban surface routes are extremely poorly signed.  WA 509 came to mind as having almost non-existent signage south Seatac where the freeway segment ended.  It was also really unclear if WA 516 and WA 99 served as a connecting corridor to WA 509.

-  Highway "Begin" placards seem to be a huge thing here while "End" placards are a rare find.

-  I really dig getting a full-size junction BGS even on surface routes.

-  There doesn't seem to be any consistency in shield placement, control city signage or even mileage markers.  It kind of made it difficult to cut a good photo album for routes like I'm used to in most states. 

-  Is not having a turn-around point before ferry terminals a thing or is it an anomaly limited to something like WA 304?

-  There are way more EV charging stations outside of major urban cores than I'm used to seeing.

[jakeroot]

I'm noticing a huge amount of oddities on this current trip in Washington:

-  What is up with the hyper-slow speed limits?  60 MPH for freeways like I-5, WA 509 and WA 16 are an absolute joke outside of the primary urban centers of Seattle/Tacoma.  Most of the surface highways are 35-40 MPH with top speeds of 50 MPH from what I've observed.

-  There are a ton of uni-signs and shields placed on small BGSs.  It looks like most of the shields are at least 25 years old and sorely need to be replaced.

-  I would have thought (granted this is the fourth time I've been to Washington) that shoulder widths would have been much more generous on state highways given the gloomy winter weather.  On two-lane highways this seems to be extremely problematic as there is almost nowhere to pull over in an emergency.

On speed limits, they are pretty low in some spots, but enforcement is pretty limited so I'm not complaining. The limit from Fife to Tukwila really should be 70, but WSDOT maintains that this is an urban freeway so the limit remains 60. With a few exceptions, WSDOT is mental about signing urban freeways at 60 and rural freeways at 70. I-705 is an example of a very short road with a seemingly high limit, but it's a freeway so it gets 60. The highest non freeway limit is probably two lane highways in suburban areas, which are often 55. Most suburban routes top out at 45, but traffic is so crappy here it rarely matters. When traffic is flowing, no one pays attention to the limit anyway so whatevs.

On unisigns, this is a WSDOT trademark. Piecemeal signs are rare except when installed by cities. Them being placed against a green background was a practice that ended many years ago. Those signs are approaching the end of their service life, so I'd expect them to start disappearing. WSDOT installs standard route shields now. LGSs are still used by Seattle to guide drivers to freeways, but usually have the state name, so that's cool.

On shoulders, WSDOT has focused more on capacity improvements lately over shoulders. On the 5, when the HOV lanes were installed many years ago, the agency sort of set a precedent that only total rebuilds would include shoulders along both sides. Most widenings don't seem to incorporate shoulders on the left, and right shoulders are never wider than necessary. WSDOT employs this "practical solutions" (or something) policy nowadays, which gets them to focus more on improving capacity first, and everything else second. I guess shoulders are second.

[Max Rockatansky]

I'm noticing a huge amount of oddities on this current trip in Washington:

-  What is up with the hyper-slow speed limits?  60 MPH for freeways like I-5, WA 509 and WA 16 are an absolute joke outside of the primary urban centers of Seattle/Tacoma.  Most of the surface highways are 35-40 MPH with top speeds of 50 MPH from what I've observed.

-  There are a ton of uni-signs and shields placed on small BGSs.  It looks like most of the shields are at least 25 years old and sorely need to be replaced.

-  I would have thought (granted this is the fourth time I've been to Washington) that shoulder widths would have been much more generous on state highways given the gloomy winter weather.  On two-lane highways this seems to be extremely problematic as there is almost nowhere to pull over in an emergency.

On speed limits, they are pretty low in some spots, but enforcement is pretty limited so I'm not complaining. The limit from Fife to Tukwila really should be 70, but WSDOT maintains that this is an urban freeway so the limit remains 60. With a few exceptions, WSDOT is mental about signing urban freeways at 60 and rural freeways at 70. I-705 is an example of a very short road with a seemingly high limit, but it's a freeway so it gets 60. The highest non freeway limit is probably two lane highways in suburban areas, which are often 55. Most suburban routes top out at 45, but traffic is so crappy here it rarely matters. When traffic is flowing, no one pays attention to the limit anyway so whatevs.

On unisigns, this is a WSDOT trademark. Piecemeal signs are rare except when installed by cities. Them being placed against a green background was a practice that ended many years ago. Those signs are approaching the end of their service life, so I'd expect them to start disappearing. WSDOT installs standard route shields now. LGSs are still used by Seattle to guide drivers to freeways, but usually have the state name, so that's cool.

On shoulders, WSDOT has focused more on capacity improvements lately over shoulders. On the 5, when the HOV lanes were installed many years ago, the agency sort of set a precedent that only total rebuilds would include shoulders along both sides. Most widenings don't seem to incorporate shoulders on the left, and right shoulders are never wider than necessary. WSDOT employs this "practical solutions" (or something) policy nowadays, which gets them to focus more on improving capacity first, and everything else second. I guess shoulders are second.

I understand the capacity thing on an Interstate but what something like a 308 where if you have a blowout there is virtually nowhere to pull over? 

I found a lot of those LGSs you were referring to on this trip.  There was one even displaying "Washington" in the shields for I-5/I-90 coming off the Bremerton-Seattle Ferry this morning.

[compdude787]

I found a lot of those LGSs you were referring to on this trip.  There was one even displaying "Washington" in the shields for I-5/I-90 coming off the Bremerton-Seattle Ferry this morning.

At the middle ferry slip at Colman Dock, there used to be a BGS visible by traffic coming off of the ferry that said "TEMP I-90." I'm pretty sure it dated from around 1966, when the ferry terminal was last rebuilt. I'm not sure if it's still there currently, because WSF is currently rebuilding Colman Dock, so they may have removed that antiquated (but historic) sign.

[Max Rockatansky]

I found a lot of those LGSs you were referring to on this trip.  There was one even displaying "Washington" in the shields for I-5/I-90 coming off the Bremerton-Seattle Ferry this morning.

At the middle ferry slip at Colman Dock, there used to be a BGS visible by traffic coming off of the ferry that said "TEMP I-90." I'm pretty sure it dated from around 1966, when the ferry terminal was last rebuilt. I'm not sure if it's still there currently, because WSF is currently rebuilding Colman Dock, so they may have removed that antiquated (but historic) sign.

Was it where this BGS is located now? 

IMG_5781 by Max Rockatansky, on Flickr

[jakeroot]

I understand the capacity thing on an Interstate but what something like a 308 where if you have a blowout there is virtually nowhere to pull over? 

Which part of 308 are you referring to specifically? Most two-lane highways have a shoulder, although it's usually only half a dozen feet wide. Really old two-lane highways have shoulders that are only a foot or two wide.

[Max Rockatansky]

I understand the capacity thing on an Interstate but what something like a 308 where if you have a blowout there is virtually nowhere to pull over? 

Which part of 308 are you referring to specifically? Most two-lane highways have a shoulder, although it's usually only half a dozen feet wide. Really old two-lane highways have shoulders that are only a foot or two wide.

It's that foot or two width that I was seeing.  It was pretty much directly west of Keyport and hat lagoon to be specific.  Near 3 it definitely had full width shoulders approaching the interchange. 

[Bruce]

I found a lot of those LGSs you were referring to on this trip.  There was one even displaying "Washington" in the shields for I-5/I-90 coming off the Bremerton-Seattle Ferry this morning.

At the middle ferry slip at Colman Dock, there used to be a BGS visible by traffic coming off of the ferry that said "TEMP I-90." I'm pretty sure it dated from around 1966, when the ferry terminal was last rebuilt. I'm not sure if it's still there currently, because WSF is currently rebuilding Colman Dock, so they may have removed that antiquated (but historic) sign.

Was it where this BGS is located now? 

IMG_5781 by Max Rockatansky, on Flickr

I believe the sign that he's referring to is this one on the pedestrian bridge at Marion:


Old sign at Colman Dock by SounderBruce, on Flickr

[Bruce]

I'm noticing a huge amount of oddities on this current trip in Washington:

-  Urban surface routes are extremely poorly signed.  WA 509 came to mind as having almost non-existent signage south Seatac where the freeway segment ended.  It was also really unclear if WA 516 and WA 99 served as a connecting corridor to WA 509.

SR 509's routing between eastern Tacoma and Des Moines is pretty much a temporary route. The long-term plan is to extend the freeway segment of SR 509 down to I-5 near Angle Lake, and link up the Port of Tacoma freeway to I-5 and an extended SR 167.

-  Is not having a turn-around point before ferry terminals a thing or is it an anomaly limited to something like WA 304?

The Bremerton terminal is a bit unique because it's constrained by the naval shipyard, so there's no room for a turnaround. Most terminals do have some kind of turnaround before you reach the toll booths, but otherwise reserve turnarounds for buses and taxis.

(The above might be a bit inaccurate, since I rarely ride the ferries...walk-ons are too expensive for my taste).

-  There are way more EV charging stations outside of major urban cores than I'm used to seeing.

WSDOT has been building quite a few as part of the "West Coast Electric Highway" initiative and have many more planned.

[compdude787]

I found a lot of those LGSs you were referring to on this trip.  There was one even displaying "Washington" in the shields for I-5/I-90 coming off the Bremerton-Seattle Ferry this morning.

At the middle ferry slip at Colman Dock, there used to be a BGS visible by traffic coming off of the ferry that said "TEMP I-90." I'm pretty sure it dated from around 1966, when the ferry terminal was last rebuilt. I'm not sure if it's still there currently, because WSF is currently rebuilding Colman Dock, so they may have removed that antiquated (but historic) sign.

Was it where this BGS is located now? 
[pic]

I believe the sign that he's referring to is this one on the pedestrian bridge at Marion:
[pic]

Yep, that's the one. Is it still there?

[Hurricane Rex]

I'm noticing a huge amount of oddities on this current trip in Washington:

-  What is up with the hyper-slow speed limits?  60 MPH for freeways like I-5, WA 509 and WA 16 are an absolute joke outside of the primary urban centers of Seattle/Tacoma.  Most of the surface highways are 35-40 MPH with top speeds of 50 MPH from what I've observed.

-  There are a ton of uni-signs and shields placed on small BGSs.  It looks like most of the shields are at least 25 years old and sorely need to be replaced.

-  I would have thought (granted this is the fourth time I've been to Washington) that shoulder widths would have been much more generous on state highways given the gloomy winter weather.  On two-lane highways this seems to be extremely problematic as there is almost nowhere to pull over in an emergency.

On speed limits, they are pretty low in some spots, but enforcement is pretty limited so I'm not complaining. The limit from Fife to Tukwila really should be 70, but WSDOT maintains that this is an urban freeway so the limit remains 60. With a few exceptions, WSDOT is mental about signing urban freeways at 60 and rural freeways at 70. I-705 is an example of a very short road with a seemingly high limit, but it's a freeway so it gets 60. The highest non freeway limit is probably two lane highways in suburban areas, which are often 55. Most suburban routes top out at 45, but traffic is so crappy here it rarely matters. When traffic is flowing, no one pays attention to the limit anyway so whatevs.

On unisigns, this is a WSDOT trademark. Piecemeal signs are rare except when installed by cities. Them being placed against a green background was a practice that ended many years ago. Those signs are approaching the end of their service life, so I'd expect them to start disappearing. WSDOT installs standard route shields now. LGSs are still used by Seattle to guide drivers to freeways, but usually have the state name, so that's cool.

On shoulders, WSDOT has focused more on capacity improvements lately over shoulders. On the 5, when the HOV lanes were installed many years ago, the agency sort of set a precedent that only total rebuilds would include shoulders along both sides. Most widenings don't seem to incorporate shoulders on the left, and right shoulders are never wider than necessary. WSDOT employs this "practical solutions" (or something) policy nowadays, which gets them to focus more on improving capacity first, and everything else second. I guess shoulders are second.

I'm honestly surprised that further west Washington seems to be more strict on interstate speeds than the east side. Centralia/Chehalis is 60 while I-182 west of US 395 is posted at 70. Same with the eastern sections of Spokane. Not a lot of states (I feel) do that unless they have a reason to. Capacity?

LG-TP260

[jakeroot]

I'm honestly surprised that further west Washington seems to be more strict on interstate speeds than the east side. Centralia/Chehalis is 60 while I-182 west of US 395 is posted at 70. Same with the eastern sections of Spokane. Not a lot of states (I feel) do that unless they have a reason to. Capacity?

I believe the Eastern districts are free to post limits as they see fit (the same as the Western districts), as long limits above 60 are approved by the Secretary of Transportation. Why higher limits out east? Probably just lower density overall.

[jakeroot]

The sign for the Northbound to Northbound 167 to 405 direct access ramp has gone up. I don't believe the ramp is to be complete until next year though.



Progress on the ramp...

[roadfro]

The sign for the Northbound to Northbound 167 to 405 direct access ramp has gone up. I don't believe the ramp is to be complete until next year though.

I'm surprised the sign is not white on green (with maybe a white header showing the restriction). This is not compliant with MUTCD.

[jakeroot]

The sign for the Northbound to Northbound 167 to 405 direct access ramp has gone up. I don't believe the ramp is to be complete until next year though.

https://i.imgur.com/wCltkm1.jpg

I'm surprised the sign is not white on green (with maybe a white header showing the restriction). This is not compliant with MUTCD.

Yeah, that's a good point. WashDOT has used black on white HOV and express signage for quite a long time, however, I seem to recall a ruling which prohibits any further use of this style. I'll have to send them an email once I get my hands on a link. Unless you have one?

[roadfro]

I'm surprised the sign is not white on green (with maybe a white header showing the restriction). This is not compliant with MUTCD.

Yeah, that's a good point. WashDOT has used black on white HOV and express signage for quite a long time, however, I seem to recall a ruling which prohibits any further use of this style. I'll have to send them an email once I get my hands on a link. Unless you have one?

I don't recall a "ruling", per se. But the 2007 Bluffton University bus crash (Wikipedia article) in Atlanta was determined to be caused, in part, by the bus driver mistaking a black-on-white HOV only exit for the through lane. (Granted, the HOV exit direction sign in that case looked much more like a regulatory sign than this one.)

The NTSB investigation of that incident led to recommendations for signage treatment for HOV/Preferential Lane guide signage. Those recommendations contributed to the standards present in the 2009 MUTCD Chapter 2G regarding HOV/Preferential Lane signage. See specifically Section 2G.15.

Section 2G.15 Guide Signs for Direct Exits from Preferential Lanes to Another Highway
Standard:
<...>
02 The design of Advance Guide, Exit Direction, and Pull-Through signs for direct exits from preferential lanes shall be distinguished from those applicable to general-purpose lanes by inclusion of an upper section with the applicable black legend on a white background, such as HOV LANE (for Pull-Through signs) or HOV EXIT (for Advance Guide and Exit Direction signs). For preferential lanes that incorporate a vehicle occupancy requirement, the white diamond symbol on a black background shall be displayed at the left-hand edge of this upper section (see Figures 2G-15 and 2G-16).

I'm also noting that the MUTCD chapter also doesn't currently show examples of bus/HOV symbols to define the lane regulation/definitions, as seen in the above pic. But I don't think this is as egregious as the whole white sign (and think we should be moving in this direction).

[jakeroot]

Here is what WSDOT will be building at the intersection of Hwy 9 and 204 in Lake Stevens. Tight diamond that will operate more like a SPUI. Some of the odd one-way roads will remain, but will be rebuilt, and a new N-S road will be built through the shopping center east of the junction:

https://youtu.be/w9dqHiw-tto

[Bruce]

It's interesting how the new bus stops are basically like the freeway stops on I-5 and I-405. Perhaps this will be the start of CT's Arlington-Woodinville express that was promised in 2015.

[Max Rockatansky]

Drove a lot of I-5, WA 99 and I-405 this past week. 

I-5 generally isn't too much of a problem provided you can get to the express lanes through downtown (my approach was northbound during evening rush hour when I tried).  I thought it was interesting to see the regular lanes basically bottleneck down so much in downtown approaching I-90.  Those 70 minute drive times from Everett to Seattle look brutal to deal with on a regular basis.  Capacity seemed like a huge issue with no inside shoulders where the HOV lanes were.

I-405 I thought had a huge capacity issue north of I-90.  The express lanes were up to $10.50 when I drove through but dropped to $0.50 when I got south of I-90.  I'm was really surprised that I-405 wasn't at least six regular lanes instead of the four with two HOV.

WA 99 was the real way to move about the city in a car for me.  Traffic may have been slow but I don't recall at any point where 99 stopped completely in either direction of travel.  It was a little weird to see exclusive bus lanes on a surface highway but it didn't really slow things up.

[kkt]

Yeah, the express lanes were I-5's original construction, but the HOV lanes were added later by taking away the shoulder and narrowing general-purpose lanes.  Yes, the bottleneck at I-90 and the convention center is a problem, with no easy solution.  Trying to go the reverse direction from the I-5 express lanes is a problem most of the time.

When I-405 was planned it was a rural interstate and two lanes each way was gonna be plenty.