Washington

[Rothman]

Overbuild? What the fuck are you talking about. Roads in Washington can get very congested. If anything it's due to being under built. This is due to lack of proper funding. Not some hyperbolic nonsensical statement like "reckless expansion."

Have to once again agree with the Panda.  I was just out there again to visit family and I-405 is just an unmitigated disaster between the HOV lanes switching arbitrarily over to HOT lanes.  If anything, the setup and depressing traffic (first time I've been out there where the overall vibe was quite low) is a quintessential argument that congestion forces people onto transit or other modes.

[Rothman]

Show me a state with an increasing population, and I'll show you a state where traffic gets very congested.

Yep.  When I think "overbuilt," I always trot out Binghamton, NY and soon, if the Beltway concept is really brought to full fruition, Scranton, PA.

[Plutonic Panda]

Overbuild? What the fuck are you talking about. Roads in Washington can get very congested. If anything it's due to being under built. This is due to lack of proper funding. Not some hyperbolic nonsensical statement like "reckless expansion."

Have to once again agree with the Panda.  I was just out there again to visit family and I-405 is just an unmitigated disaster between the HOV lanes switching arbitrarily over to HOT lanes.  If anything, the setup and depressing traffic (first time I've been out there where the overall vibe was quite low) is a quintessential argument that congestion forces people onto transit or other modes.

Admittedly, I haven't been to Washington yet but knowing what I've seen from observing maps and traffic congestion as well as articles about notorious congestion in Washington I don't see how it could possibly be overbuilt. Now I would agree emphasis should be placed on preservation but I wouldn't classify Washington as an expansion trigger happy state like Texas or Utah for example. Oregon and California(with some exceptions) seem more on the anti-expansion realm as far as west coast states go Washington seems like the most pro expansion but I wouldn't call it reckless.

I'd say it's more responsible and needed expansion than anything.

[Bruce]

The new freeways are overbuilt and shouldn't have been prioritized over maintenance. I-5 is crumbling, but we're plowing forward with SR 509 and SR 167 for relatively little in the way of benefits.

Looking from afar at maps is not going to give you the full picture.

[Plutonic Panda]

The new freeways are overbuilt and shouldn't have been prioritized over maintenance. I-5 is crumbling, but we're plowing forward with SR 509 and SR 167 for relatively little in the way of benefits.

Looking from afar at maps is not going to give you the full picture.

True. I'm heading there soon. I am excited as I have always loved the idea of the NW. trying to figure out lodging and somewhere close to metro. Seattle seems like a dream city of mine. I am excited to experience it soon.

[pderocco]

True. I'm heading there soon. I am excited as I have always loved the idea of the NW. trying to figure out lodging and somewhere close to metro. Seattle seems like a dream city of mine. I am excited to experience it soon.

Bring your rubbers and an umbrella.

[kkt]

True. I'm heading there soon. I am excited as I have always loved the idea of the NW. trying to figure out lodging and somewhere close to metro. Seattle seems like a dream city of mine. I am excited to experience it soon.

Bring your rubbers and an umbrella.

Um... no, bring a parka and a rain hat.  With an umbrella you'll look like a tourist (and it doesn't do as well in the light misting rain we get so much of).

[Bruce]

Umbrellas are one of the cardinal sins in Seattle, along with adding a possessive to Pike Place, and using Californian terms like "the X".

[Alps]

The new freeways are overbuilt and shouldn't have been prioritized over maintenance. I-5 is crumbling, but we're plowing forward with SR 509 and SR 167 for relatively little in the way of benefits.

Looking from afar at maps is not going to give you the full picture.

You are anti-road. Panda is pro-road. The truth is therefore in the middle: work should be a balance between new capacity where needed and maintaining existing infrastructure where needed.

[kkt]

Umbrellas are one of the cardinal sins in Seattle, along with adding a possessive to Pike Place, and using Californian terms like "the X".

Using the definite article with a route is not a thing in Northern California and it will mark you as a tourist from SoCal if you start talking about "The 880" or "The 580".

[TXtoNJ]

The new freeways are overbuilt and shouldn't have been prioritized over maintenance. I-5 is crumbling, but we're plowing forward with SR 509 and SR 167 for relatively little in the way of benefits.

Looking from afar at maps is not going to give you the full picture.

You are anti-road. Panda is pro-road. The truth is therefore in the middle: work should be a balance between new capacity where needed and maintaining existing infrastructure where needed.

I think he is more anti-stupid-road, which many of these are.

[Plutonic Panda]

The new freeways are overbuilt and shouldn't have been prioritized over maintenance. I-5 is crumbling, but we're plowing forward with SR 509 and SR 167 for relatively little in the way of benefits.

Looking from afar at maps is not going to give you the full picture.

You are anti-road. Panda is pro-road. The truth is therefore in the middle: work should be a balance between new capacity where needed and maintaining existing infrastructure where needed.

I think he is more anti-stupid-road, which many of these are.

Which ones?

[Plutonic Panda]

True. I'm heading there soon. I am excited as I have always loved the idea of the NW. trying to figure out lodging and somewhere close to metro. Seattle seems like a dream city of mine. I am excited to experience it soon.

Bring your rubbers and an umbrella.

Rubbers in this context being of the protective variety from the elements of weather or that of which comes from....

[Bickendan]

Umbrellas are one of the cardinal sins in Seattle, along with adding a possessive to Pike Place, and using Californian terms like "the X".

Umbrellas are also a cardinal sin in Portland, as is adding a possessive to Fred Meyer. We're indifferent to "the X" though.

[compdude787]

Overbuild? What the fuck are you talking about. Roads in Washington can get very congested. If anything it's due to being under built. This is due to lack of proper funding. Not some hyperbolic nonsensical statement like "reckless expansion."

And building more highways isn't going to fix it, nor is widening the ones we already have. It will just encourage more people to drive, the freeway will be congested again, and money will be wasted. I'm glad we're spending more money on mass transit; driving in urban areas generally sucks and being able to have good public transit really makes for a better experience getting around.

[Plutonic Panda]

Overbuild? What the fuck are you talking about. Roads in Washington can get very congested. If anything it's due to being under built. This is due to lack of proper funding. Not some hyperbolic nonsensical statement like "reckless expansion."

And building more highways isn't going to fix it, nor is widening the ones we already have. It will just encourage more people to drive, the freeway will be congested again, and money will be wasted. I'm glad we're spending more money on mass transit; driving in urban areas generally sucks and being able to have good public transit really makes for a better experience getting around.

Widening freeways and building new ones does help. All you anti car nuts do is repeat the same shit over and over. Why even have roads at all if we won't ever widen them? It's called addressing growth. I'm so tired of your dumbass arguments like "just one lane bro" when all you weirdos do is say "just one more train bro." If you want to ride public transit and be a sucker fine. Stay in your lane and stop trying to stop others from committing how they want. I want my car. Widen my roads. Thanks.

[Bruce]

Says the person who has never visited our fair state.

I think we should defer to the people who live here, work here, study here, and pay taxes here. I want my money to be used effectively, not dumped into the ever-larger siphoning of the general fund for roads that benefit very few Washingtonians.

I am anti-dumbroads and pro-mobility. I want many viable options and the ability to choose between them on an even playing field. That means investing in alternatives and staying the course with roads. Note that I'm not advocating for tearing down I-5 now that it's showing its age...just fix what we have and don't overcomplicate it.

[Plutonic Panda]

Okay so all I have to do is visit the state and suddenly I can comment on it. That's a ridiculous argument. Please do tell an example of "reckless spending." I believe this is the second time I've asked.

[Duke87]

Overbuild? What the fuck are you talking about. Roads in Washington can get very congested. If anything it's due to being under built. This is due to lack of proper funding. Not some hyperbolic nonsensical statement like "reckless expansion."

So I see a semantic disconnect here. Bruce's comment was more along the lines of "it's foolish to prioritize expansion over maintenance", not "expansion is not justified by traffic demand".

Unfortunately it is all too common that the infrastructure financial resources are available to build and maintain is less than the infrastructure that demand warrants. This is what happens when you have a country where construction is expensive and people don't like paying taxes.

[Plutonic Panda]

Overbuild? What the fuck are you talking about. Roads in Washington can get very congested. If anything it's due to being under built. This is due to lack of proper funding. Not some hyperbolic nonsensical statement like "reckless expansion."

So I see a semantic disconnect here. Bruce's comment was more along the lines of "it's foolish to prioritize expansion over maintenance", not "expansion is not justified by traffic demand".

Unfortunately it is all too common that the infrastructure financial resources are available to build and maintain is less than the infrastructure that demand warrants. This is what happens when you have a country where construction is expensive and people don't like paying taxes.

Or by being blatantly hyperbolic by claiming reckless expansion is the reason behind their funding woes when in fact it's due to underfunding and inflation. They even admit this and are seeking to find new funding. These new roads are needed as are preservation projects. Both can be done it doesn't have to be one or the other.

[TXtoNJ]

Overbuild? What the fuck are you talking about. Roads in Washington can get very congested. If anything it's due to being under built. This is due to lack of proper funding. Not some hyperbolic nonsensical statement like "reckless expansion."

And building more highways isn't going to fix it, nor is widening the ones we already have. It will just encourage more people to drive, the freeway will be congested again, and money will be wasted. I'm glad we're spending more money on mass transit; driving in urban areas generally sucks and being able to have good public transit really makes for a better experience getting around.

I think many roadgeeks struggle with the notion that driving in cities will inevitably suck, because moving 1 ton+ objects through densely populated areas is inherently dangerous and difficult.

[Plutonic Panda]

Overbuild? What the fuck are you talking about. Roads in Washington can get very congested. If anything it's due to being under built. This is due to lack of proper funding. Not some hyperbolic nonsensical statement like "reckless expansion."

And building more highways isn't going to fix it, nor is widening the ones we already have. It will just encourage more people to drive, the freeway will be congested again, and money will be wasted. I'm glad we're spending more money on mass transit; driving in urban areas generally sucks and being able to have good public transit really makes for a better experience getting around.

I think many roadgeeks struggle with the notion that driving in cities will inevitably suck, because moving 1 ton+ objects through densely populated areas is inherently dangerous and difficult.

It will suck. And honestly I'm just fine with that. I can deal with traffic congestion it doesn't bother me all that much. The only thing that really pisses me off is if I'm going on a road trip and me or my girlfriend(if I have one), or one of my friends that I'm with forget something and we have to backtrack. Then I get really pissed off.

But otherwise, I understand you're not ever going to solve traffic congestion issues in cities.

Yes, it'll suck by building these projects that Washington is we can make it suck a little less.

[TXtoNJ]

Overbuild? What the fuck are you talking about. Roads in Washington can get very congested. If anything it's due to being under built. This is due to lack of proper funding. Not some hyperbolic nonsensical statement like "reckless expansion."

And building more highways isn't going to fix it, nor is widening the ones we already have. It will just encourage more people to drive, the freeway will be congested again, and money will be wasted. I'm glad we're spending more money on mass transit; driving in urban areas generally sucks and being able to have good public transit really makes for a better experience getting around.

I think many roadgeeks struggle with the notion that driving in cities will inevitably suck, because moving 1 ton+ objects through densely populated areas is inherently dangerous and difficult.

It will suck. And honestly I'm just fine with that. I can deal with traffic congestion it doesn't bother me all that much. The only thing that really pisses me off is if I'm going on a road trip and me or my girlfriend(if I have one), or one of my friends that I'm with forget something and we have to backtrack. Then I get really pissed off.

But otherwise, I understand you're not ever going to solve traffic congestion issues in cities.

Yes, it'll suck by building these projects that Washington is we can make it suck a little less.

Thing is, by blasting and paving over the things we like about Washington, we've made it suck far more.

[jakeroot]

We're indifferent to "the X" though.

Seattle and surrounding environs are indifferent to "the X" too, it's not uncommon to hear it, between Canadians and Southern Californians who both like the phrasing. The notion that we are offended by it is simply false. At least in real life...Twitter would have you believe that it'll get you strung-up.

I used to live in Kennydale, and I would say "the 405" all the time. Same when I was in Tacoma and lived near Stadium High School, I used "the 705" all the time. No one has ever corrected me on it, or ever cared. Most normal people don't care, period.

Umbrellas are one of the cardinal sins in Seattle

Umbrellas are also a cardinal sin in Portland

I've never understood why this is. I don't like entering a building soaking wet. Last I checked, a good umbrella will keep your torso and upper legs mostly dry, where rain jackets only keep your torso dry (if they work as advertised), whereas your face, legs, and shoes will all get soaked, or at least wet. No thanks.

Umbrellas are strongly preferred here in Okinawa year round, either to prevent you from getting wet (both from the rain, and resulting sweat), or from getting sunburned; I'm surprised the typical Pacific Northwest vampires haven't yet figured out that latter use for them yet.

[jakeroot]

Okay so all I have to do is visit the state and suddenly I can comment on it. That's a ridiculous argument.

I would agree with you, especially because these transportation improvements are ostensibly to support growth, which naturally will include lots of people not from the area already. For example, I'm sure a substantial portion of Link Light Rail riders never voted in favor of the system in any general election, rather they moved to the Seattle region and located near the line specifically because it was already there.

If Seattle wants to grow, it needs to invest in all transportation options: new public transport services (bus, metro, etc), new freeways, and more housing (increasing density). It's hard to do all of those, but it's the key to success for the world's biggest cities (at least here in the Far East). Tokyo has arguably the best rail system in the world, yet the city is covered in freeways too, some still under construction or being planned.

Now, I admit using Japan as an example is (besides typical of me) not so great because the per-person public debt is outrageously high, but even in areas with lower budgets, putting all of your eggs in one basket is not good. Seattle is a good example of a place that spreads things out, though: the Link Light Rail will ultimately cost $130 billion, which is pretty much the same as the $3 billion the new 167 and 509 will cost...oh wait...