Coronavirus pandemic

[kphoger]

What cities have issued orders requiring people to wear masks while outdoors?

I know Estes Park (CO) did at the beginning of the month for the downtown district, set to expire June 10.

Section 2: Face Coverings Required.

All persons shall wear face coverings at all times when:

b.  outdoors within the boundaries of the Commercial Downtown zoning district, as delineated in the Town of Estes Park Development Code and Official Zoning Map.

Fresno had one but it expired with the City's emergency order on the 26th.

There's no way this was enforceable outdoors.

Interestingly the mayor admitted that here in Fresno when the mask order was instituted.  During the press conference the mayor went onto say that the police weren't looking for people not wearing masks outside, despite it being mandatory in all public places.   

But that doesn't mean such orders are 'unenforceable', just that that they're 'unenforced'.  I fail to see how an order requiring masks inside city hall could be enforceable while requiring masks in a city park could be unenforceable.  Plenty of jurisdictions, especially cities, have enforceable municipal codes prohibiting nudity in outdoor public spaces, so why would one requiring a mask be unenforceable?

[Max Rockatansky]

What cities have issued orders requiring people to wear masks while outdoors?

I know Estes Park (CO) did at the beginning of the month for the downtown district, set to expire June 10.

Section 2: Face Coverings Required.

All persons shall wear face coverings at all times when:

b.  outdoors within the boundaries of the Commercial Downtown zoning district, as delineated in the Town of Estes Park Development Code and Official Zoning Map.

Fresno had one but it expired with the City's emergency order on the 26th.

There's no way this was enforceable outdoors.

Interestingly the mayor admitted that here in Fresno when the mask order was instituted.  During the press conference the mayor went onto say that the police weren't looking for people not wearing masks outside, despite it being mandatory in all public places.   

But that doesn't mean such orders are 'unenforceable', just that that they're 'unenforced'.  I fail to see how an order requiring masks inside city hall could be enforceable while requiring masks in a city park could be unenforceable.  Plenty of jurisdictions, especially cities, have enforceable municipal codes prohibiting nudity in outdoor public spaces, so why would one requiring a mask be unenforceable?

Got me, I never bothered to wear a mask outside of a building the entire time that order was in effect.  As far as I know there was never anyone actually ever ticketed for the mask ordinance inside a building or not.  It kind of seemed like a waste given City Hall was making statements like it did and how fast it ended up dropping it all together in the end. 

[mgk920]

For some, the "similar platform" is a low-power FM transmitter broadcasting to drive-in congregants. That requires an FM transmitter; any license required (don't know if there is any); parking lot with room for congregants to park within range of the transmitter; and some other arrangement for congregants who don't have their own cars.

Low power 'Part 15' transmitters require no license.

Mike

[Max Rockatansky]

Something kind of unique to this pandemic is the amount of office cleaning that has been done. We've lost several keyboards since this all started since people are getting into a bad habit of spraying them down with bleach solution rather than wetting down a rag.  I just spent five minutes blowing out a keyboard to get it working again, kind of defeated the purpose of the initial cleaning..

[vdeane]

Interesting article about how Japan has handled this.  It sounds like they view this not as much as a temporary emergency measure but as a permanent change to avoid closed spaces, crowded spaces, and close contact.
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-japan-tackled-coronavirus-without-a-lockdown-2020-5

[webny99]

One thing this pandemic has proven, though, is that there are solutions if you're committed to finding them and prepared to think outside the box. Not necessarily easy or good or conventional solutions, but there are ways to make things work.

Overall, I've been very impressed by how well many entities have adapted to the business-from-home model, and also how quickly they were able to implement new practices and tools. However, I've noticed quite a disparity between some institutions and other comparable ones–most notably a disparity between school districts.

That could have a lot to do with internet access, too. But it's not just that. Such tends to go hand in hand with other challenges, like poverty, which only magnifies the disparity between school districts. On the one hand, you have wealthy suburbanites with good internet access that are more comfy at home anyways and easily made the transition to doing everything online. And on the other, you have impoverished districts in which many students lack internet access and hardly have a roof over their head at the best of times. For those students, going to the actual physical school building is an extremely fundamental part of their education. Take that away, and there's really not much left to work with or any precedent for how to overcome it. It's a brutal exposure of societal haves and have-nots, to put it mildly.

In my age group, I know people who don't have Internet access, or smartphones.

That's true, although kids and grandkids can often help the older folks with technology. Not having any internet access in this day and age is problematic for many other reasons, not being able to join a zoom meeting being fairly low on the list. I get that it's a reality for some people, and maybe that's potentially something their church should be helping/supporting them with, both practically and financially.

It sounds like you're suggesting that religious groups cover the cost of computers and internet subscriptions for members who apparently don't even want them, then commit to training them to use it. In my frank opinion, even if that were reasonable, those members still wouldn't use it. You've grown up in a culture in which the internet has been ubiquitous, and so the filter through which you view life is colored by that.  For people who've lived 80% of their life in a culture in which the internet either didn't exist or else wasn't the primary tool of communication, it would require a radical shift in outlook for them to suddenly value the internet enough to actually incorporate it into their daily life.

That's fair enough. I totally get that. I just don't want to hear "there are no solutions", when solutions do exist, just maybe not ones we like or are used to.
And you're right - I'm in a particularly interesting spot being born right at the tail end of the 20th century. Technology was evolving as I was growing up. I grew with it, so to speak. Older people tend to think of my generation as the generation that was born in to all this technology, but I don't think it's that clear cut. I certainly didn't grow up constantly staring at the computer or phone in my early formative years like someone born a few years ago might be.

(In 20 years, I can easily imagine telling kids about the days of flip phones, for example, and the days before Zoom and video calls existed, and the days when kids under 10 (and even some adults!) didn't have their own phones. And the days when the Internet was a slow beast and worked best with a plug-in cord. And back when I was in school, schools didn't even provide everyone with computers. We actually used pen and paper and I've still got the penmanship to prove it!  )

[J N Winkler]

In light of all the comments upthread about roadtripping and other travel plans being frustrated by the coronavirus pandemic, I thought I would share a little perspective.

I've been doing a little family history research and ran across this blurb about my great-great-grandfather:

Mr. Schmitter expects to leave on Friday of this week for New York.  On June 30 he will sail on the SS Hamburg for Switzerland, Italy, France and the Holy Land.  He will be accompanied as far as New York by his daughter, Miss Inez Schmitter, who will spend the summer with relatives.

I think he must have intended this trip to have a psychologically restorative effect since he had lost his wife (my great-great-grandmother) to cancer earlier in the year.  But, in any event, he was just about to leave for the overseas portion of his itinerary when a certain Austrian archduke got assassinated.  A little over a month later, the shooting war was in progress on the western front, and he was scrambling to get back to the US via a ship leaving from Amsterdam (the Netherlands remained neutral during World War I).

[Max Rockatansky]

In light of all the comments upthread about roadtripping and other travel plans being frustrated by the coronavirus pandemic, I thought I would share a little perspective.

I've been doing a little family history research and ran across this blurb about my great-great-grandfather:

Mr. Schmitter expects to leave on Friday of this week for New York.  On June 30 he will sail on the SS Hamburg for Switzerland, Italy, France and the Holy Land.  He will be accompanied as far as New York by his daughter, Miss Inez Schmitter, who will spend the summer with relatives.

I think he must have intended this trip to have a psychologically restorative effect since he had lost his wife (my great-great-grandmother) to cancer earlier in the year.  But, in any event, he was just about to leave for the overseas portion of his itinerary when a certain Austrian archduke got assassinated.  A little over a month later, the shooting war was in progress on the western front, and he was scrambling to get back to the US via a ship leaving from Amsterdam (the Netherlands remained neutral during World War I).

Funny, we were talking about what might have happened if our trip to Mexico was a couple weeks later.  As it stood the only Coronavirus anything we ran into during the trip was a couple questions if we had been China at the airport.  Had we gone later there was a pretty good chance we wouldn't have been able to fly home or had to deal with all that 14 day quarantine jazz that so many had to.  There really isn't anyway really to know when something like a pandemic or full scale war is going to break out...

Today was a rare day that my wife had a weekend day off.  That being the case we spent much of the morning out doing errands for the next two weeks.  Costco in Clovis wasn't restricting the number of people who could go into the store but still has a mask rule in effect.  Lowes didn't have a capacity either and only requires people to stay six feet from each other.  We had our first meal out in two months at a restaurant at a local Poki Bowl diner near the house.  It was kind of nice having the place to ourselves, most people were still doing carry out.

[kphoger]

One thing this pandemic has proven, though, is that there are solutions if you're committed to finding them and prepared to think outside the box. Not necessarily easy or good or conventional solutions, but there are ways to make things work.

Overall, I've been very impressed by how well many entities have adapted to the business-from-home model, and also how quickly they were able to implement new practices and tools. However, I've noticed quite a disparity between some institutions and other comparable ones–most notably a disparity between school districts.

That could have a lot to do with internet access, too. But it's not just that. Such tends to go hand in hand with other challenges, like poverty, which only magnifies the disparity between school districts. On the one hand, you have wealthy suburbanites with good internet access that are more comfy at home anyways and easily made the transition to doing everything online. And on the other, you have impoverished districts in which many students lack internet access and hardly have a roof over their head at the best of times. For those students, going to the actual physical school building is an extremely fundamental part of their education. Take that away, and there's really not much left to work with or any precedent for how to overcome it. It's a brutal exposure of societal haves and have-nots, to put it mildly.

I wasn't referring to the students, I was referring to the school districts.  That is to say, I've seen great variations in the ability of school districts to implement technology, training, and clear expectations for their teachers.

[kphoger]

I've been doing some number crunching this morning based on the latest info from the CDC, in order to fact-check an article I read recently.



According to the CDC's current best estimate (Scenario 5 in source [1] above), I calculate that 0.26% of all COVID cases end in death.  For those under age 50, the symptomatic case fatality rate is only 0.05%.  If we can assume that the CDC's estimated asymptomatic case rate holds true equally for all age groups–and I don't if that's a safe assumption to make or not–then the net fatality case rate in those over age 65 would be 0.085%, while the net fatality case rate in those under age 50 would be 0.033%.  That is to say, for all people under age 50 (with or without underlying conditions), 1 out of every 3077 who contract the virus will die from it.  If for some reason the asymptomatic case rate varies across age groups, then I doubt it would alter the numbers a whole heck of a lot.

Also note how lopsided the fatality rate is between inside and outside nursing homes or assisted living facilities.  An estimated 42% of all COVID deaths have occurred in nursing homes or assisted living facilities–which account for only 0.62% of the total US population.

[Max Rockatansky]

^^^

I cited the same thing from the CDC a couple pages back myself.  Suffice to say that the neighborhood of 0.3% is far less scary than those numbers that were being reported out of China early on regarding a near 4% mortality rate.  For reference, if I recall correctly a 4% mortality rate is about equal to what one could expect attempting to Climb Mount Everest.  I think someone early on in this thread referenced the typical flu season carrying about a 0.1% mortality rate?

[Max Rockatansky]

In a little bit of an update to last night we were invited out to dinner by some of our friends.  Some of the differences I noted where we are were as follows:

-  The whole staff was wearing masks and gloves. 
-  We had to order at the front counter and pay in advance. 
-  The server brought us disposable cups and utensils, but regular plates were used. 
-  Condiments came in a baggy as opposed to being at the table. 

I kind of dig the ordering first and taking my seat.  It actually really sped up the process of getting my meal instead of waiting for the server. 

[hbelkins]

So, what's everyone experiencing in terms of retail prices and product availability?

Gas is slowly going back up. Around here, it's up between 10 cents and 30 cents a gallon from its low a few weeks ago.

Last week, fresh packaged hamburger (73/27, the cheap stuff) went up from $6.19 to $7.99 a pound between Tuesday and Friday at the local grocery store. At Kroger, 30 miles away, the prepackaged five-pound tubes of 73/27 ground beef are $25 ($5 a pound) and three-pound tubes of 80/20 ground chuck are $18 ($6 a pound). Prices for pork chops and tenderloin have tripled or quadrupled locally as well.

Hand sanitizer and disinfectant products are still hard to come by, and some stores are still experiencing paper towel shortages.

[Max Rockatansky]

Here in Central California:

-  Gas is up about $0.30 on average but I haven't seen a station climb back over $3 a gallon for 87 Octane.
-  Pretty everyone is stocked with toilet paper and water by now, the demand seems to have dropped through the floor. 
-  Clorox wipes might as well never have existed at all, I haven't seen them in about a month. 
-  Meat is about the same price, but we have a ton of food processing facilities locally. 
-  Interestingly there is a massive shortage in weight sets still.  Those got cleaned out early by people like me and they haven't come back since California won't let gyms reopen yet. 

[Roadgeekteen]

Did drive through at Kellys roast beef in Danvers, they increased the prices of the sandwich due to the meat shortage. However, they accidentally gave us two extra sandwiches so lol.

[bandit957]

So, what's everyone experiencing in terms of retail prices and product availability?

It's bad.

[Duke87]

So, what's everyone experiencing in terms of retail prices and product availability?

Current status in SW CT:

- gas prices stubbornly refused to fall in March, but gradually fell over the course of April. Around early May they stopped falling but have held steady since, not observed to be increasing yet. Currently gas is about 70 cents a gallon cheaper than it was 3 months ago ($1.99-$2.09 vs. $2.69-$2.79).

- paper towels and toilet paper were very difficult to find from mid-March through the end of April. Has since improved but still far from normal. Big box stores more reliably have these things than grocery stores or pharmacies.

- hand sanitizer was impossible to find until a few weeks ago but now it's everywhere. Stores have bins overflowing with it. Hand soap on the other hand remains difficult to find. Walmart and Stop&Shop have been completely out every time I've looked. CVS occasionally has a slim supply of single bottles but no big refills. When I checked Costco recently they had pallets of bar soap but the only liquid hand soap was the foofy scented kind, nothing plain.

- supply of generic store meats (beef, pork, chicken) is basically normal, but prepackaged/processed meats (bacon, sausage, etc.) are a bit slim pickings. I haven't bought any of the former in a month since I stocked us up when I first heard rumblings of meatpacking plants having trouble, so I haven't been paying attention to the prices. The prices of the latter, at least at the local Stop & Shop, are unchanged from the normal sticker price - they haven't had any sales on this stuff since April though, so there's that.

[Bruce]

So, what's everyone experiencing in terms of retail prices and product availability?

Gas prices are starting to climb back up (now to $2.17 from $2.09). Meat prices are holding steady, as are most other consumable goods.

Hand sanitizer is occasionally available at various stores. Even Dollar Tree had a shipment of Chinese-made sanitizer. Costco is selling sanitizers made by local distilleries and breweries, complete with glass bottles. Paper products are widely available, but there are fewer in number and restrictions on customer purchases.

Masks are actually easy to find if you go to smaller stores. Daiso (the Japanese 100-yen store) has plenty of them in stock.

[Scott5114]

So, what's everyone experiencing in terms of retail prices and product availability?

Gas is slowly going back up. Around here, it's up between 10 cents and 30 cents a gallon from its low a few weeks ago.

Last week, fresh packaged hamburger (73/27, the cheap stuff) went up from $6.19 to $7.99 a pound between Tuesday and Friday at the local grocery store. At Kroger, 30 miles away, the prepackaged five-pound tubes of 73/27 ground beef are $25 ($5 a pound) and three-pound tubes of 80/20 ground chuck are $18 ($6 a pound). Prices for pork chops and tenderloin have tripled or quadrupled locally as well.

Hand sanitizer and disinfectant products are still hard to come by, and some stores are still experiencing paper towel shortages.

Damn, does nobody raise cattle in Kentucky? In Oklahoma it's about $6/lb for 90/10. Eye round steak is $11.98/lb.

We haven't had any real shortages of products at the Crest grocery store in Norman since about early April. Major brands are often depleted, but there is always at least a no-name or budget equivalent available. (Colortex toilet paper sucks. At least I only had to buy that once.) Cleaning supplies are available, but they are all brands I've never heard of. Clorox is nowhere to be found, but there is still off-brand bleach. Many of them seem like rush-job packaging from vendors that don't normally sell to consumers; a lot of the labels look like a simple copy-paste of an MSDS or similar sheet, sometimes with a logo hurriedly slapped on.


There are also some instances of businesses that don't normally make cleaning supplies doing so. Crest carries a brand of hand sanitizer made at a brewery in Guthrie, as well as one made at a CBD company in New Jersey.

[bugo]

Damn, does nobody raise cattle in Kentucky? In Oklahoma it's about $6/lb for 90/10. Eye round steak is $11.98/lb.
[/quote]

Pork is really cheap in Oklahoma, at least at Reasor's. I bought some pork chops for $1.55 a pound a while back, and I paid $6 or $7 for two nice sized little pork roasts that was enough for two meals a few months ago.

[kphoger]

In a little bit of an update to last night we were invited out to dinner by some of our friends.  Some of the differences I noted where we are were as follows:

-  The whole staff was wearing masks and gloves. 
-  We had to order at the front counter and pay in advance. 
-  The server brought us disposable cups and utensils, but regular plates were used. 
-  Condiments came in a baggy as opposed to being at the table. 

I kind of dig the ordering first and taking my seat.  It actually really sped up the process of getting my meal instead of waiting for the server. 

On Saturday my wife and I went out on a date for the first time since....ummmm....January, I think.  We biked down to a Middle Eastern restaurant near our house for lunch.  Even at 12:15 on a Saturday, I think we were the first people to sit down.  It's a seat-yourself and pay-later establishment.  Every other table was blocked off (as is the norm in my experience these days), but our waitress didn't even wear a mask.  The other employees I saw were wearing masks, but it was very refreshing to actually see our waitress's smile as she served us.  It was like a human interaction, almost like normal life.  So far, that's only the third dine-in restaurant we've been to since March.

So, what's everyone experiencing in terms of retail prices and product availability?

The only things I've paid attention to have been toilet paper and meat.  I don't pay much attention to the price of gas, for two reasons:  (1) I use the same amount no matter what the price is and (2) with my grocery store shopper's card, the price I pay never matches what's on the sign anyway.

Toilet paper has been well stocked for at least a month now.

I only noticed meat shortages for about two weeks.  Nowadays, not only are the shelves stocked with meat (perhaps even better stocked than before), but I also no longer see signs limiting customers to one or two of an item.

[ftballfan]

My church held in-person services for the first time since mid-March yesterday. Some things that were different:

- They had two services, divided by last name (A-M went at 9am while N-Z went at 10:30am)
- Every pew had tape on one side (so each pew had one entrance from the aisles, alternating sides)
- Groups were set three to four pews apart
- Offering plates were set at the entrance to church
- The hymnals and Bibles were removed from the pews, with the hymns being sung on that day printed out in the bulletin
- Communion was done by family group, with the elder setting out a wafer and wine for each person on a napkin

[kphoger]

My church held in-person services for the first time since mid-March yesterday. Some things that were different:

- They had two services, divided by last name (A-M went at 9am while N-Z went at 10:30am)
- Every pew had tape on one side (so each pew had one entrance from the aisles, alternating sides)
- Groups were set three to four pews apart
- Offering plates were set at the entrance to church
- The hymnals and Bibles were removed from the pews, with the hymns being sung on that day printed out in the bulletin
- Communion was done by family group, with the elder setting out a wafer and wine for each person on a napkin

Our in-home small group started yesterday evening (started off with game night, actual content to begin next week), with corporate worship not scheduled to begin till June 21.  We determined that the main thing that needed to be adjusted at small group was dinner.  The galley-style kitchen tended to be where everyone congregated at once, for one thing.  We spaced the tables out more, and switched from everyone serving him- or herself, à la buffet, to having everyone sit down and then one person from each family serve the rest of the family.

I think the trickiest thing for us to figure out at church will be how to maintain personal space in Sunday school classrooms.  The age in between nursery and about nine years old is, in our opinion, the age during which kids simply can't keep their fingers out of their mouth and nose and can't seem to keep their hands to themselves.  Splitting them up into smaller classes is the obvious solution, but teachers are in short supply in our congregation, with some of them likely not to return for a while due to ongoing fear of the virus.

[kalvado]

^^^

I cited the same thing from the CDC a couple pages back myself.  Suffice to say that the neighborhood of 0.3% is far less scary than those numbers that were being reported out of China early on regarding a near 4% mortality rate.  For reference, if I recall correctly a 4% mortality rate is about equal to what one could expect attempting to Climb Mount Everest.  I think someone early on in this thread referenced the typical flu season carrying about a 0.1% mortality rate?

One thing to remember - there are lots of lessons learned over these months. Care must be way more effective these days that it was in Wuhan.
Another thing to consider is long term consequences. What I heard lat time, about 7% of those recovered are left with degraded health, and that may be another thing to look at

[J N Winkler]

Another thing to consider is long term consequences. What I heard lat time, about 7% of those recovered are left with degraded health, and that may be another thing to look at

That was actually my focus back in February, since SARS (2003) is correlated with high rates of bone tissue necrosis in survivors.  This is the main reason I've been skeptical of a herd-immunity strategy all along.