Washington

[Bruce]

I said it a hundred times on this forum before and I'll say it for the 101st time, ban all automated enforcement with school and work zone exceptions.

School Zones shouldn't exist in most cases.  If no one walks to school, no school zone.  School Zones make it seem like kids are more important than other pedestrians, when that simply isn't true, and shouldn't be treated that way.  Parents driving their kids to school are the worst offenders, too.


In most cases, speed limits are pointless, as people will drive what they feel comfortable driving.  We need better designed roads, that either cater to moving traffic, or impeding traffic to slow them down.  A sign will not slow enough people down, we don't have cops to enforce it, and state law prohibits the use of still cameras for enforcement (meaning tons of storage required).  Better to redesign the roads to fix the problems, than cause yet another issue for the courts to hash out.

School zones are 100% necessary, but yes they need to be designed to slow drivers down to the desired limit. Kids are at higher risk than other pedestrians because they are small and lack common sense, so the risk of a driver not seeing them is high. There should be an automatic road diet around schools and a ban on no-walk rules (which is the case for many schools around the state), along with priority for new sidewalks around schools. Individual vehicles picking up/dropping off/driving to/from schools should also be limited to what is absolutely necessary, as there's just far too many of them.

[jakeroot]

I also agree that school zones are 100% necessary, but the speed needs to seem reasonable in comparison to the design speed of the road. Asking drivers to go 20 on a road normally posted at 40+ may be okay if it's a smaller road with some curves in it, but not a major 4+ lane arterial.

In Puyallup, where I grew up and went to school, we use flashing school speed zones but only on two lane roads. Roads that were like below only ever received 'when children are present' signage because, let's be honest, no one is going to observe 20 on this road. The normal limit is 40 (raised from 35 around 2012 when the road was widened). The school (Woodland ES) is at the valley of the road on the center-left of the image. It's unfortunate the only way to access the school is from this road, because speeds on this road, even during hours when children were very visible coming/going from school, were not anywhere near 20.


School Zone "20" on 112 St E, Puyallup, WA by Jacob Root, on Flickr (Google Street View)

Speaking of school zones, Puyallup also never posted school zones at high schools. Was this common elsewhere in the state?

[Bickendan]

Same idea on Powell Blvd here in Portland for Cleveland High and Kellogg Middle, though it's been within the last few years Portland's convinced ODOT to post school zones for both, linked to the remodel and rebuild of both schools, respectively. Another note, Powell, which is a four lane artery west of I-205, used to be 35 but is now 30.

[stevashe]

I also agree that school zones are 100% necessary, but the speed needs to seem reasonable in comparison to the design speed of the road. Asking drivers to go 20 on a road normally posted at 40+ may be okay if it's a smaller road with some curves in it, but not a major 4+ lane arterial.

In Puyallup, where I grew up and went to school, we use flashing school speed zones but only on two lane roads. Roads that were like below only ever received 'when children are present' signage because, let's be honest, no one is going to observe 20 on this road. The normal limit is 40 (raised from 35 around 2012 when the road was widened). The school (Woodland ES) is at the valley of the road on the center-left of the image. It's unfortunate the only way to access the school is from this road, because speeds on this road, even during hours when children were very visible coming/going from school, were not anywhere near 20.


School Zone "20" on 112 St E, Puyallup, WA by Jacob Root, on Flickr (Google Street View)

Speaking of school zones, Puyallup also never posted school zones at high schools. Was this common elsewhere in the state?

Bellevue also does not have school zones at high schools, or even middle schools. Just Elementary. Looks like Kirkland doesn't have them at high schools either.

[ErmineNotyours]

And then there are Australian speed cameras. At least in NSW, don't be a single km/h over, or you'll get nailed ("HEAVY FINES AND LOSS OF LICENCE").

Just out of curiosity, what happens when one with an international license gets nabbed? Do they just pay money? Do we still get points?

I sped past a speed camera in British Columbia in 1999 and saw the flash, but never got a ticket.  They never even hassled me at the border about it, and by now it's been decades since I had that license plate.  I never had a chance to drive over a photo license toll facility in British Columbia.

[jakeroot]

Here's an overhead shot of the new SR-9 roundabouts in Lake Stevens. Picture is from Facebook, apparently from the Snohomish County Scanner group.

I've heard things are actually flowing pretty well.


SR-9 Lake Stevens Roundabouts by Jacob Root, on Flickr

[Bruce]

Drove through a few times since it opened and it has been smooth, and much better than the old setup (which made getting from the Safeway to SR 9 or SR 204 a pain). Just need to watch for drivers who don't know how to use a roundabout.

[jakeroot]

Drove through a few times since it opened and it has been smooth, and much better than the old setup (which made getting from the Safeway to SR 9 or SR 204 a pain). Just need to watch for drivers who don't know how to use a roundabout.

Glad to hear it's working well, I will admit I was worried. That's a lot of roundabouts in a small space.

I am patiently waiting to see which entry or which circulatory area is reduced to one lane first. It always happens; at Sharpes Corner, it was the second left turn lane WB to SB that was eliminated.

[Plutonic Panda]

What is up with Davies road? That road should've been removed.

[Bruce]

What is up with Davies road? That road should've been removed.

It's a service road that is needed for several businesses and also provides a way to get thru-drivers out of the Safeway shopping center.

[Plutonic Panda]

What is up with Davies road? That road should've been removed.

It's a service road that is needed for several businesses and also provides a way to get thru-drivers out of the Safeway shopping center.

Then why not just build a controlled access road then? Otherwise extend the driveways to the main road. Idk... I don't know this area but just looking at that photos makes me think there is a lot of overbuilt infrastructure there.

[jakeroot]

What is up with Davies road? That road should've been removed.

It's a service road that is needed for several businesses and also provides a way to get thru-drivers out of the Safeway shopping center.

Then why not just build a controlled access road then? Otherwise extend the driveways to the main road. Idk... I don't know this area but just looking at that photos makes me think there is a lot of overbuilt infrastructure there.

I think your issue is actually Vernon Road, the frontage road along Hwy 9 that goes left-right in the image. Davies Road is the small road that disappears off the bottom right of the image:

https://goo.gl/maps/gzPwiP3VwaBHMHK97

Vernon Road south of Davies Road is a little harder to justify now that Davies has a direct connection with Hwy 9. There was previously just a mini roundabout where Vernon and Davies met, and Hwy 9 was an adjacent but disconnected facility. It seems like a couple of driveways could have been built to directly connect the pub and the gas station to Hwy 9. Barring that, they certainly didn't need to build such a huge road, or could have made it one-way.



My main qualm is actually with the slip lanes, why are there so many? Apart from SB Hwy 9 to WB Hwy 204, none of them seem particularly crucial.

[Amaury]

Doesn't seem to be quite as bad as what happened on SR 504, thankfully, but it's still bad.

https://www.yoursourceone.com/columbia_basin/wsdot-details-damage-caused-by-mudslide-on-us-2-near-coulee-city-and-everything-else/article_28a6814e-2281-11ee-a19f-d3d1adea8bca.html

https://www.facebook.com/WSDOT/posts/pfbid02Z2JW5VDUEYxo9YQMTfA117R5YNfDTswHmNArkHLa4bu5z5uxcqLGoUC4mZpXefFxl

My mom and I drove to Waterville on June 19, though we came back the way we went there and back down through the canyon, so we never actually drove that stretch. The last time I drove the stretch that is now closed was when I took my drive to Mansfield on April 4. Of course everything was just peachy then.

[roadman65]

https://goo.gl/maps/2BkFgWfTkQVqdNPb7
What does that milepost equivalent sign refer to?

[stevashe]

https://goo.gl/maps/2BkFgWfTkQVqdNPb7
What does that milepost equivalent sign refer to?

The sign is noting the location of a gap in mileposts that happened because SR 16 used to take a longer route through Tacoma before the freeway was built. WSDOT opted not to redo the mileposts east of the Narrows Bridge, so they just jump up here. This is also reflected in the exit numbers, which jump from 4 to 8 in about 1.9 miles.

[jakeroot]

There was a crash on 16 July at WA-509 & Alexander Avenue in Fife; six were killed, all in the same vehicle.

There is now some concern that this has become a dangerous intersection. Just looking at numbers, obviously it looks terrible now following this crash, but apparently (according to WSP in their interview below), half of the crashes on WA-509 in "this stretch" were at/near the Alexander Avenue intersection even before this crash. Now it's almost all of them, sadly.

Not sure what others think of the intersection. It's a fairly standard divided highway signalized intersection, though the lane assignments are quite poor with two lanes going northbound straight into a virtual dead-end (which is why most cars turn it into a double left turn, as seen at the end of the video below). Signal timing leaves something to be desired too.

Surely everything would be resolved with some flyovers, as has been planned for decades. Alas, it's the one part of the 167/509 project that was not funded.

https://youtu.be/uztYYXU2NjA

I do not recall exact plans, but I believe the intersection and signal are being removed as part of the 509 completion project.

[Bruce]

When you design it like a freeway but leave signals in, this is the unsurprising result. Drivers are going to be stupid and run red lights, so grade separation or drastic speed-reducing designs are needed.

[jakeroot]

When you design it like a freeway but leave signals in, this is the unsurprising result. Drivers are going to be stupid and run red lights, so grade separation or drastic speed-reducing designs are needed.

Correct, leaving this intersection as-is would be incredibly unwise.

... which is why I'm quite irritated to have discovered that the plan for Alexander Avenue is not to build a flyover as they already almost did, or remove the signal. No, they are going to build a new bridge over the Wapato Creek for the westbound 509 carriageway, moving it closer to the eastbound carriageway so they can built a giant signalized intersection (with multiple double left turns) that will do absolutely nothing to prevent crashes like these. This video around 4:46 shows the most recent plan.

Brilliant plan, WSDOT. Is Maltby not evidence enough that a signal in the middle of a freeway is not a good idea?

For the record, the original EIS from 2006 shows a flyover at Alexander (sort of, it goes off the bottom of the picture...)


WA-167 2006 EIS by Jacob Root, on Flickr

[Amaury]

I-90 closed due to a vehicle fire catching a hillside on fire by Vantage. Eastbound at Exit 115; westbound at Exit 136.

https://www.facebook.com/WSDOT/posts/pfbid02QVNKJHiGcjmBK7QB32qreeM39fjx6GMFxicaLXsaEMxLc6FJE1osVEguoP2AimiKl

[Bruce]

https://www.facebook.com/WSDOT/posts/pfbid02QVNKJHiGcjmBK7QB32qreeM39fjx6GMFxicaLXsaEMxLc6FJE1osVEguoP2AimiKl

Please don't post links (especially to a social media post) without context. Not everyone can see the post.

[Amaury]

I-90 closed due to a vehicle fire catching a hillside on fire by Vantage. Eastbound at Exit 115; westbound at Exit 136.

https://www.facebook.com/WSDOT/posts/pfbid02QVNKJHiGcjmBK7QB32qreeM39fjx6GMFxicaLXsaEMxLc6FJE1osVEguoP2AimiKl

Eastbound is open again.

[PNWRoadgeek]

Anyone know how the 509/167 project is going? I haven't caught up with it recently so I wonder if there's any progress with the extensions. I saw an interchange concept with the 5 upthread but other than that I don't really know how it's going right now.

[Bruce]

Anyone know how the 509/167 project is going? I haven't caught up with it recently so I wonder if there's any progress with the extensions. I saw an interchange concept with the 5 upthread but other than that I don't really know how it's going right now.

There's a thread for it: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=28085.0

[jakeroot]

I was reading over the newly-released SR-167 Master Plan Final Study Recommendations, and it has some suggestions. These are specific to road improvements:

* dual ETL lanes from SR-512 to SR-405
* complete missing movements at SR-167/SR-18
* rebuilding SR-18 Westbound to SR-167 Southbound ramp (either as larger loop or flyover?)
* rebuild SR-167 interchanges at Jovita/Stewart, Ellingson, 15th St NW, and 43rd/180th
* direct-access ETL ramps to SR-512, SR-410 (area of it), and somewhere in Kent
* completion of SR-167/Valley Ave interchange
* grade-separate Grady Way and Rainier Ave in Renton (local improvement)

Lots more in the PDF, too much to repeat here. Definitely check it out.

Read more (PDF): https://wsdot.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2023-07/SR167-MasterPlan-PELStudy-AttachmentD.pdf

[PNWRoadgeek]

I was reading over the newly-released SR-167 Master Plan Final Study Recommendations, and it has some suggestions. These are specific to road improvements:

* dual ETL lanes from SR-512 to SR-405
* complete missing movements at SR-167/SR-18
* rebuilding SR-18 Westbound to SR-167 Southbound ramp (either as larger loop or flyover?)
* rebuild SR-167 interchanges at Jovita/Stewart, Ellingson, 15th St NW, and 43rd/180th
* direct-access ETL ramps to SR-512, SR-410 (area of it), and somewhere in Kent
* completion of SR-167/Valley Ave interchange
* grade-separate Grady Way and Rainier Ave in Renton (local improvement)

Lots more in the PDF, too much to repeat here. Definitely check it out.

Read more (PDF): https://wsdot.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2023-07/SR167-MasterPlan-PELStudy-AttachmentD.pdf

Thanks for that PDF. I saw a lot of stuff that I didn't know before about the Gateway Project.