Department of Redundancy Department

[PHLBOS]

Found this one recently and wasn't sure which thread to post/comment on it.  It's not unique enough for the Good, Bad & Ugly thread, it's not technically erroneous (though some might view it as misleading depending on where they're heading), and there's not really a design error per say.

The issue: MA 62 east of this interchange w/US 3 goes through the center of Burlington (where its municipal facilities & offices are located) and US 3 south heads towards the Burlington Mall (to most outsiders, Burlington = where the mall is) its freeway segment does indeed end in Burlington (at I-95) not too far from the mall.  However, using the name of a shopping mall as a highway destination (to differentiate from Burlington's municipal center) is frowned upon by MUTCD; so that option's out.  To my knowledge, Burlington is not separated into either North/South or Upper/Lower sections.

Previous US 3 South signage at this particular interchange either listed BOSTON, possibly WINCHESTER, maybe both and possibly TO RTE. 128 (old) and/or TO 95 references in the D6 LGS legend; but never Burlington. 

Note: there's still a supplemental TO 95 trailblazer along MA 62 eastbound just prior to the US 3 south ramp leftover from the US 3 widening construction project.

Personally, I would have used BOSTON for these US 3 south ramp LGS' especially since one is greeted with this overhead BGS shortly after getting on US 3 South and erected supplemental (LBS) signage for the Burlington Mall near/at the on-ramp.

[roadman]

Found this one recently and wasn't sure which thread to post/comment on it.  It's not unique enough for the Good, Bad & Ugly thread, it's not technically erroneous (though some might view it as misleading depending on where they're heading), and there's not really a design error per say.

The issue: MA 62 east of this interchange w/US 3 goes through the center of Burlington (where its municipal facilities & offices are located) and US 3 south heads towards the Burlington Mall (to most outsiders, Burlington = where the mall is) its freeway segment does indeed end in Burlington (at I-95) not too far from the mall.  However, using the name of a shopping mall as a highway destination (to differentiate from Burlington's municipal center) is frowned upon by MUTCD; so that option's out.  To my knowledge, Burlington is not separated into either North/South or Upper/Lower sections.

Previous US 3 South signage at this particular interchange either listed BOSTON, possibly WINCHESTER, maybe both and possibly TO RTE. 128 (old) and/or TO 95 references in the D6 LGS legend; but never Burlington. 

Note: there's still a supplemental TO 95 trailblazer along MA 62 eastbound just prior to the US 3 south ramp leftover from the US 3 widening construction project.

Personally, I would have used BOSTON for these US 3 south ramp LGS' especially since one is greeted with this overhead BGS shortly after getting on US 3 South and erected supplemental (LBS) signage for the Burlington Mall near/at the on-ramp.

The change to "Burlington" was made as part of the 1996 US 3 Burlington to Tyngsborough sign update.  The majority of the signs installed in 1996 were retained or reset as part of the subsequent widening project.  Unfortunately, I can't find any records as to what the previous LGSes said.

And I agree with you that using Burlington as a control for US 3 south from MA 62 makes little sense.  Personally, I would have used "US 3 SOUTH TO I-95 Boston" at this location.  When I get a chance, I'll discuss this with my contacts in District 4 - there might actually be a history as to why the change to Burlington was made.

[PHLBOS]

The change to "Burlington" was made as part of the 1996 US 3 Burlington to Tyngsborough sign update.  The majority of the signs installed in 1996 were retained or reset as part of the subsequent widening project.  Unfortunately, I can't find any records as to what the previous LGSes said.

Guess on my part, the use of Burlington for a US 3 South destination for this interchange may have been the result of a one-size-fits-all approach to interchange signage in the fore-mentioned 1996 sign replacement contract. 

Meaning, since all the other interchanges north of MA 62 list Burlington for a southbound destination (which is correct & proper given that none of the other connecting roads go to Burlington); such was applied for MA 62 signage as well despite the fact that 62 crosses into Burlington just east of US 3 near MITRE's complex.

As far as what was noted on the previous LGS'; I'm guessing that any US 3 South LGS prior to the 1980s likely listed the then-much-used TO RTE. 128 - BOSTON legend.  Later signage (80s vintage) may have used either WINCHESTER - BOSTON or just BOSTON.

And I agree with you that using Burlington as a control for US 3 south from MA 62 makes little sense.  Personally, I would have used "US 3 SOUTH TO I-95 Boston" at this location.  When I get a chance, I'll discuss this with my contacts in District 4 - there might actually be a history as to why the change to Burlington was made.

See above for my personal speculation.

BTW, a similar destination redundancy exists in District 5(?) at the US 1/MA 114 interchange in Danvers involving the use of Peabody for both MA 114 East and US 1 South destinations.

MA 114 East Peabody BGS from US 1 South, BGS along US 1 North has the same listing.

US 1 South Peabody from MA 114 East; but interestingly, the US 1 South BGS along MA 114 West still has the older Boston listing.  Such is located shortly after one passes the on-ramp for I-95 South (which is also signed for Boston).

I'm well aware of the reason why Boston (US 1 South's originally-listed destination) was removed from the 1 South BGS along 114 East; such coincided with the opening of the newly-added & constructed and fore-mentioned direct on-ramp to nearby I-95 South. 

However, given that fact that Peabody has long since been a 114 east destination, plus the fact that US 1 goes nowhere near Downtown Peabody; I would've used either W. Peabody or Saugus for a US 1 South destination... and apply such on all US 1 South signs at this interchange.

Not to bust your chops here but another destination redundancy (IMHO, this one's more of an error) exists with this particular LGS at the I-95/MA 110 interchange.  Since MA 110 East goes into Salisbury, it's a bit pointless to still have Salisbury as an I-95 North destination from here northward.

[Mapmikey]

Here is a 1958 photo from Richmond Va.  It is Broad St WB at Bowe St, which was NB US 1-301 during much of the 1950s.

There are 4 (!) different US 1-301 assemblies telling you to turn right - 3 different kinds (regular cutouts; white border; inverse white on black on an overhead sign).

I would post the pic itself but the Richmond Times-Dispatch will only allow me to link for free.  If I wanted to (and I did) put the pictures themselves (8 total) on the Virginia Highways Project, they would charge me $50 per pic per year.

http://archives.blogs.timesdispatch.com/files/2013/06/0717_POD_Whitten-1024x778.jpg

For the curious, here is a 1952 photo heading in the opposite direction showing that US 33-250 did continue east past US 1-301...


http://archives.blogs.timesdispatch.com/2014/03/10/broad-lombardy-1952/

Mapmikey

[jakeroot]

WSDOT (and other neighboring west-coast jurisdictions) are known for their double shields on pull-throughs. But how about double cardinal-directions?

Sorry for shit iPhone quality. Sign was just installed maybe a week ago max on I-5 South just short of the SR-16 junction. I don't think it will last more than a few years given the construction in the area.

[national highway 1]

[Kacie Jane]

WSDOT (and other neighboring west-coast jurisdictions) are known for their double shields on pull-throughs. But how about double cardinal-directions?

Sorry for shit iPhone quality. Sign was just installed maybe a week ago max on I-5 South just short of the SR-16 junction. I don't think it will last more than a few years given the construction in the area.

I was hoping you'd noticed that sign.  A couple of notes:

• That sign is too small. I've driven under it several times already, and I'm pretty sure it's only two lanes wide.
• It's on the same overpass as one of the "error" signs for the SR 16 exit, which reads Exit 132 when it's been 132B for a few years now, and incorrectly has the right two lanes marked exit only, when it should be only the right lane with an option lane.
• Taking the "gantry" as a whole, there's a host of lane assignment problems:
  
  • The carriageway is 6 lanes wide at this point. With the I-5 sign being too small, that leaves two lanes in the center with no down arrows. Even if it were sized/mounted correctly, Lane #4 wouldn't have an arrow.
  • The four left lanes should be signed as I-5 south. The reason the fourth one isn't is because it ends about a mile down the road, but not until after the Exit 132A off-ramp, with plenty of space to merge. A lane ends warning could be appropriate here if you didn't want to include the fourth lane on the I-5 pull-through, but that would probably be message loading.
  • As mentioned, Lane #5 is an exit only lane for Exit 132A (38th Street) or an option lane for Exit 132B (SR 16). It shouldn't be signed as an exit only lane for SR 16.
  
  Basically, they mean well, but a lot of the hopefully temporary construction signage in this area has turned out like crap.
  
  

[SignGeek101]

http://goo.gl/maps/w9TOZ

I can't believe I'm complaining about a FHWA sign in BC, but here I am.

[jakeroot]

http://goo.gl/maps/w9TOZ

I can't believe I'm complaining about a FHWA sign in BC, but here I am.

Fucking hell. That's bad.

[SignGeek101]

http://goo.gl/maps/yijFH

I guess these are quite common though.

[amroad17]

^ When I looked at the BC photo you (SignGeek101) posted, the second photo was the exact one I thought about.

[jwolfer]

It is CR220 Goddamnit[/IMG]

[ekt8750]

That's really stretching people's knowledge of road symbols and their meanings - I doubt most poeple would translate a green keystone shield to mean a toll road.  Nor does the PA Turnpike symbol or even the PA Turnpike wording absolutely mean there will be a toll to pay.  There are some short stretches of the PA Turnpike where one can ride toll free.

"Turnpike" implies a toll road.

[NE2]

"Turnpike" implies a toll road.

Not if you grew up somewhere with a bunch of 19th century turnpikes that still have those names.

[1995hoo]

That's really stretching people's knowledge of road symbols and their meanings - I doubt most poeple would translate a green keystone shield to mean a toll road.  Nor does the PA Turnpike symbol or even the PA Turnpike wording absolutely mean there will be a toll to pay.  There are some short stretches of the PA Turnpike where one can ride toll free.

"Turnpike" implies a toll road.

I might agree with this if you're referring to an Interstate-grade highway or similar (I suppose you could question whether the Pennsylvania Turnpike is Interstate-grade!), but I don't think it's accurate as a blanket statement. "Turnpike" isn't uncommon as a designator for an arterial road. My parents' neighborhood is located off Little River Turnpike, a standard four-lane suburban arterial with traffic lights and a 45-mph speed limit. As NE2 says, the road was privately built during the Jefferson Administration and back then it was a toll road. Its name stuck long after it became public.

Since I've never been to Oklahoma with its turnpikes named for people, if I hear "Turnpike" I think of a toll highway only if the word follows a state's name. Otherwise, I think of a longer arterial street. (The old Richmond—Petersburg Turnpike in Virginia would have been an exception, but the tolls were removed in the early 1990s and I never drove on it myself as a toll road, though I was a passenger on it many times during the toll era.)

[hotdogPi]

That's really stretching people's knowledge of road symbols and their meanings - I doubt most poeple would translate a green keystone shield to mean a toll road.  Nor does the PA Turnpike symbol or even the PA Turnpike wording absolutely mean there will be a toll to pay.  There are some short stretches of the PA Turnpike where one can ride toll free.

"Turnpike" implies a toll road.

I might agree with this if you're referring to an Interstate-grade highway or similar (I suppose you could question whether the Pennsylvania Turnpike is Interstate-grade!), but I don't think it's accurate as a blanket statement. "Turnpike" isn't uncommon as a designator for an arterial road. My parents' neighborhood is located off Little River Turnpike, a standard four-lane suburban arterial with traffic lights and a 45-mph speed limit. As NE2 says, the road was privately built during the Jefferson Administration and back then it was a toll road. Its name stuck long after it became public.

Since I've never been to Oklahoma with its turnpikes named for people, if I hear "Turnpike" I think of a toll highway only if the word follows a state's name. Otherwise, I think of a longer arterial street. (The old Richmond—Petersburg Turnpike in Virginia would have been an exception, but the tolls were removed in the early 1990s and I never drove on it myself as a toll road, though I was a passenger on it many times during the toll era.)

There is even a road in Salisbury, Massachusetts that is named "Toll Rd." It has no toll.
(I've been trying to find a starting and ending point that uses Toll Rd. to bypass the I-95 toll in New Hampshire, but it's not quite working.)

[NE2]

There is even a road in Salisbury, Massachusetts that is named "Toll Rd." It has no toll.

It was built as an approach to the NH Turnpike.

[bzakharin]

That's really stretching people's knowledge of road symbols and their meanings - I doubt most poeple would translate a green keystone shield to mean a toll road.  Nor does the PA Turnpike symbol or even the PA Turnpike wording absolutely mean there will be a toll to pay.  There are some short stretches of the PA Turnpike where one can ride toll free.

"Turnpike" implies a toll road.

I might agree with this if you're referring to an Interstate-grade highway or similar (I suppose you could question whether the Pennsylvania Turnpike is Interstate-grade!), but I don't think it's accurate as a blanket statement. "Turnpike" isn't uncommon as a designator for an arterial road. My parents' neighborhood is located off Little River Turnpike, a standard four-lane suburban arterial with traffic lights and a 45-mph speed limit. As NE2 says, the road was privately built during the Jefferson Administration and back then it was a toll road. Its name stuck long after it became public.

Since I've never been to Oklahoma with its turnpikes named for people, if I hear "Turnpike" I think of a toll highway only if the word follows a state's name. Otherwise, I think of a longer arterial street. (The old Richmond—Petersburg Turnpike in Virginia would have been an exception, but the tolls were removed in the early 1990s and I never drove on it myself as a toll road, though I was a passenger on it many times during the toll era.)

The Connecticut Turnpike is free. NJ, despite having "The Turnpike" has many non-toll turnpikes, like the Middlesex-Essex Turnpike, which nowadays is a few blocks long, nowhere near Essex County, and the Sussex Turnpike, which is just a county route in Morris (not Sussex) County.

[1995hoo]

Good point about Connecticut. While I overlooked that one when I made my comment, it doesn't really matter because regardless of its status, it doesn't change my overall feeling that if I hear "[state name] Turnpike" I generally think of a tolled highway.

(I do remember when the Connecticut Turnpike was tolled, though I was not yet old enough to drive at the time. If I refer to that road nowadays, though, I'd call it I-95.)

[empirestate]

I'd say the word "turnpike" absolutely does imply a toll road, it's just that the implication often isn't borne out by reality. Taken literally, a "turnpike" refers to a barrier that can be moved. The connotation is that this would be moved upon payment of a toll (as is done at parking garages and many toll facilities today).

Of course, the vast majority of so-called "Turnpikes" today are no longer toll facilities; at the same time, many roads that currently are tolled don't use a movable barrier. Because of this, people who use the word "turnpike" often don't mean to imply a toll road; however, the word itself does connote this.

[Zeffy]

That's really stretching people's knowledge of road symbols and their meanings - I doubt most poeple would translate a green keystone shield to mean a toll road.  Nor does the PA Turnpike symbol or even the PA Turnpike wording absolutely mean there will be a toll to pay.  There are some short stretches of the PA Turnpike where one can ride toll free.

"Turnpike" implies a toll road.

I might agree with this if you're referring to an Interstate-grade highway or similar (I suppose you could question whether the Pennsylvania Turnpike is Interstate-grade!), but I don't think it's accurate as a blanket statement. "Turnpike" isn't uncommon as a designator for an arterial road. My parents' neighborhood is located off Little River Turnpike, a standard four-lane suburban arterial with traffic lights and a 45-mph speed limit. As NE2 says, the road was privately built during the Jefferson Administration and back then it was a toll road. Its name stuck long after it became public.

Since I've never been to Oklahoma with its turnpikes named for people, if I hear "Turnpike" I think of a toll highway only if the word follows a state's name. Otherwise, I think of a longer arterial street. (The old Richmond—Petersburg Turnpike in Virginia would have been an exception, but the tolls were removed in the early 1990s and I never drove on it myself as a toll road, though I was a passenger on it many times during the toll era.)

The Connecticut Turnpike is free. NJ, despite having "The Turnpike" has many non-toll turnpikes, like the Middlesex-Essex Turnpike, which nowadays is a few blocks long, nowhere near Essex County, and the Sussex Turnpike, which is just a county route in Morris (not Sussex) County.

Some of those in my area are the Easton Turnpike (NJ 28) and the Georgetown-Franklin Turnpike (CR 518). From what I've read though, turnpikes were privately built roads that required a toll to use back in the 19th century. No point to rename a road if so many people call it the old name (like old NJ route 3). 

[jakeroot]

"Turnpike" to me means toll road. Though "turnpike" also implies to me that it was the state's first freeway.

[empirestate]

"turnpike" [...] implies [...] freeway.

Ha, well now we've opened that huge kettle of fish again!

(And per the thread's subject, this seems the perfect place to re-discuss it.)

[jakeroot]

"turnpike" [...] implies [...] freeway.

Ha, well now we've opened that huge kettle of fish again!

(And per the thread's subject, this seems the perfect place to re-discuss it.)

I'm at least 1500 miles from the nearest turnpike...don't take my opinion seriously.

[SignGeek101]

http://goo.gl/maps/ZuU09

Perhaps it would be better to post the second sign on the left side of the road, instead of 10 m in front of the other sign.

Just up the road:

http://goo.gl/maps/0nvm7