driving to high elevations in Mt. Rainier National Park will require reservation

[Bruce]

Mount Rainier definitely needs the reservations during peak times (mostly weekends in summer), as I have seen some ridiculous lines spill out of the entrances. I do think that Paradise should be turned into a bus-based experience for most visitors, since they rarely venture to other spots in the park and the parking lot is a shitshow on the best of days. I just wish that more weekday slots were available, especially in winter (since budget cuts have left NPS to close the park entrances on some weekdays); avoiding weekends is something they want to encourage and yet it isn't even possible for a good chunk of the year.

[kalvado]

Way back when I used to hike a lot, it was always the case that you didn't have to hike very far to get away from the crowds. You wouldn't find absolute solitude, but it wouldn't be crowded. Check out the "street view" of the Bright Angel and South Kaibab trails in the Grand Canyon, even only half a mile down the trail. There are people here and there, but that thin traffic never bothered me. I just visited the South Rim a couple months ago, and it was mobbed. Since I wasn't there to hike, I bailed after snapping a few pics. But I don't begrudge all those tourists their chance to photograph the views. That's pretty much all they do.

May depend on arrangements and how difficult are specific trails.
Over here, most trail are relatively easy and you can literally find people in flipflops all the way along the trail. Parking at the trailhead quickly becomes beyond just an issue.
These are state parks (many of them established before NPS), but it really doesn't matter.

[Bruce]

Mount Rainier NP does have a major advantage in preventing overcrowding: multiple entrances that don't connect with each other (for the most part). Mowich/Carbon, Sunrise, and Paradise are different areas and one isn't really expected to visit more than one on a given day, thus allowing some of the load to be distributed.

However, it's not even. Paradise gets a lot of traffic, and Sunrise is overburdened for its relatively small size. Mowich/Carbon is pretty much unknown because it has no real facilities.

[Rothman]

Way back when I used to hike a lot, it was always the case that you didn't have to hike very far to get away from the crowds. You wouldn't find absolute solitude, but it wouldn't be crowded. Check out the "street view" of the Bright Angel and South Kaibab trails in the Grand Canyon, even only half a mile down the trail. There are people here and there, but that thin traffic never bothered me. I just visited the South Rim a couple months ago, and it was mobbed. Since I wasn't there to hike, I bailed after snapping a few pics. But I don't begrudge all those tourists their chance to photograph the views. That's pretty much all they do.

Meh.  When I hiked down from the South Rim to Phantom Ranch in the peak season, it was decently crowded -- not one line of people all the way to the bottom, but lots of clusters of people going both ways on the trail.  If it wasn't people, it was the mule trains.  Mostly remember not trying to step in mule excrement rather than admiring the scenery.

[triplemultiplex]

Hard to argue that Teddy Roosevelt punches at the same level as Mt. Rainier or Grand Canyon in terms of overall scenery, though.  It has it's charms, especially during low sun on the exposed bluffs.  And bison are always cool.  But some parks are necessarily going to be more popular because they're objectively more interesting.

Great Basin NP is not much further from Vegas than Zion is, but tons more people are going to Zion because it's more amazing.

Sucks to need stuff like entrance reservations and shuttles, but the only other option is untenable.  Many would argue national parks have too much car infrastructure already.
I remember as a kid being blown away that there were interchanges in Yellowstone.
And I've been to airports with less surface parking than some national park hot spots.

Though it does occur to me a shuttle system pushes that parking ocean to just outside the park, or into to some small tourist town just beyond the park.  Which I guess is better.  It does take away from the 'choose your own adventure' aspect when driving your own vehicle into the park.  "Hey, what's that?  Let's pull off and have a look!" gets replaced with, "Hey what's that? Can we... oop, we're past it.  This is the 12:15 to the overlook and we got a schedule to keep."

In a way, national park shuttles are a throw back to a hundred years ago when that's how most people saw the parks.  You'd take the train to the small town near the park, then hitch a ride with a tour operator.  Much more tenable in an era where orders of magnitude fewer people showed up every day.

[Max Rockatansky]

The problem with some of the Park Service shuttles is that they can be absolute shit and inconvenient (thinking of Zion especially).  The historic stage services were replaced because they were totally inadequate compared to the efficiency that the car could bring (Yosemite especially comes to mind).  That's why the Bureau of Public Roads and NPS pushed road infrastructure so hard in the 1930s-1940s.  What has really changed is that the mindset of the NPS has shifted from being a tourism agency to preservation.  Even still, if you want a truer and less restrictive wilderness experience I'd argue you that you are better off seeking it out in a National Forest.  Most people don't seek those opportunities out because there isn't an NPS equivalent agency to make it entry level approachable.

[Rothman]

Huh.  I liked the Zion shuttles when I visited.

[Max Rockatansky]

Huh.  I liked the Zion shuttles when I visited.

Every interaction I've had with it has involved a hellacious long line.  It ultimately was faster for me to just hike along the Virgin River during 2015 to/from the trail to Angels Landing and the visitor center.  The lines to get onto the shuttle along and the service was infrequent enough that it was an issue at the time.

Granted, this was the last time I tried to use the shuttle and it was during the evolution from when Zion was a somewhat quiet park into a tourism monster.  It could be better today, I just go during winter now to avoid crowds.

[MikieTimT]

If there's a mountain there, there's probably a fault. That's how mountains form.

It's a volcano. It doesn't necessarily need a fault.

What's a volcano, if not but a circular instead of planar fault in the crust?

[Rothman]

Huh.  I liked the Zion shuttles when I visited.

Every interaction I've had with it has involved a hellacious long line.  It ultimately was faster for me to just hike along the Virgin River during 2015 to/from the trail to Angels Landing and the visitor center.  The lines to get onto the shuttle along and the service was infrequent enough that it was an issue at the time.

Granted, this was the last time I tried to use the shuttle and it was during the evolution from when Zion was a somewhat quiet park into a tourism monster.  It could be better today, I just go during winter now to avoid crowds.

Yeah, I didn't have to deal with lines for the shuttle.  I was there in an August.

[kkt]

I'm sad about the reservation system because it cuts down spontaneous visits.  If I'm set to go on Friday and the weather forecast is stormy, I'd like to be able to just go Saturday instead.  But Paradise and Sunrise are certainly overcrowded, at least on summer weekends.  The alpine and subalpine climate zones are beautiful and dramatic and there aren't that many places that good roads are maintained to them.

I'm hoping they'll be able to drop the reservation requirement for Tuesdays through Thursdays.

[Max Rockatansky]

Does it though fully?  If you can get into Paradise before 7 AM the day trip ought to be still doable.

[kkt]

It's about 2 hours from my house to the park entrance.  Not too enthusiastic about leaving the house at 5:00.

[Max Rockatansky]

I generally am not either, but when Yosemite (about 90 minutes for me) was doing the same thing it just was what had to be done.  It was that or sit by a computer and just hope you can get one of the reservation spots the minute they populate on recreation.gov.  At least with getting up early I was fully in control of the situation getting into the park.

[Bruce]

People with families aren't getting to the park at 7 am. And with Seattle traffic, even arriving at 9 am can be a difficult prospect.

[Max Rockatansky]

People with families aren't getting to the park at 7 am. And with Seattle traffic, even arriving at 9 am can be a difficult prospect.

Force of will can overcome.  Ask my wife how that has worked for her and her family when we have made like trips with me operating the vehicle into the National Parks.  My dad used to make my ass get up at even earlier times when I was a kid to beat crowds to National Park destinations (or even just traffic).

That said, I'll give you that this reservation system others like it are intended to deter normal people.  I suspect that I fall far from the classification of normal given the lengths I'll go to towards exploiting entry loop holes.  I know that I'm certainly not alone on that in the road fandom.

[kkt]

Oh, yes, I suppose I could get there at 6:45... but then I'd be too tired to hike in the afternoon, or drive back home in the evening.  Sort of defeats the purpose.  Might as well book a room in one of the Inns and that would be my park entry reservation.  Or a campsite.

[Max Rockatansky]

I guess for me it has been a nominal problem.  I usually get up between 4:30-5 AM to go run and lift most days before work.  Hiking early just more or less fits in with the rest my routine for the week.

[J N Winkler]

I did the tour bus in Zion National Park about 20 years ago.  I knew going in that it would be just a brief, casual stop, since my real destination (and where I expected to spend the bulk of my time) was California.  Therefore, I did not spend a great deal of time figuring out how to work the system (and equip myself) so that I could have a more in-depth experience away from people.

My clearest memory of the bus is actually the wart growing out of a stalk on the chin of the woman sitting in front of me.  As Sartre said, "L'enfer, c'est les autres."

I don't blame the NPS for resorting to a reservation system for Rainier.  They know they have a problem on their hands, and this is probably the best way to manage it they can achieve within their budgetary constraints.  And Kalvado is completely correct about European cities having to grapple with the same problem in a different context.  I never visited the Uffizi and the Accademia (the absolute must-sees) until my second trip to Florence, when I arranged for timed tickets well in advance.

[Papa Emeritus]

And Kalvado is completely correct about European cities having to grapple with the same problem in a different context.  I never visited the Uffizi and the Accademia (the absolute must-sees) until my second trip to Florence, when I arranged for timed tickets well in advance.

The WSJ had an article this week about how overcrowding has altered the behavior of hyenas in African national parks. In the past, hyenas would follow a pride of lions, then lurked in the bushes to wait for leftovers after a kill. Now, the hyenas follow 4x4s; when hyenas see a cluster of 4x4s, they know there is probably a group of lions there. Now, a Silicon Valley investor has developed an app for safari guides to use, to reserve time slots at places where lions, leopards, or cheetahs are known to be active; this way, there will be only one or two 4x4s at a time watching them.

https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/travel/africa-safari-tourists-crowding-wildlife-d55b47e5

[compdude787]

Not a bad idea, as Paradise can really get crowded and you won't be able to find parking on most summer weekends. In fact, when I went up there in 2020, I made a point to visit Paradise on a Friday so I would be able to get a parking spot up there. At least with a timed reservation system, you'll have less crowds and are guaranteed to find parking.

When I went to Yosemite in October 2020, they had this system in place. It seemed like a good idea, as it really reduced the crowds and it made for a much better experience IMO.

[Max Rockatansky]

It also pissed off every single county around Yosemite because the park didn't permit pass through drives over Tioga Pass Road.  The park introduced a timed ticket to pass through the park shortly after.  The problem with Tioga Pass Road is that despite it being an NPS roadway is that doubles as the most popular seasonal Trans-Sierra Highway to Mono County.

Here is the latest Yosemite reservation attempt for 2024.  Mostly limited to weekends:

https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/reservations.htm

[tmoore952]

Way back when I used to hike a lot, it was always the case that you didn't have to hike very far to get away from the crowds. You wouldn't find absolute solitude, but it wouldn't be crowded. Check out the "street view" of the Bright Angel and South Kaibab trails in the Grand Canyon, even only half a mile down the trail. There are people here and there, but that thin traffic never bothered me. I just visited the South Rim a couple months ago, and it was mobbed. Since I wasn't there to hike, I bailed after snapping a few pics. But I don't begrudge all those tourists their chance to photograph the views. That's pretty much all they do.

Meh.  When I hiked down from the South Rim to Phantom Ranch in the peak season, it was decently crowded -- not one line of people all the way to the bottom, but lots of clusters of people going both ways on the trail.  If it wasn't people, it was the mule trains.  Mostly remember not trying to step in mule excrement rather than admiring the scenery.

I also hiked from the South Rim to Phantom Ranch and then 5 miles beyond (only campsite I could get reservations for [in April 1994]). I remember the mule trains passing me. One of the things I most remember is how green the Colorado River was. I assume there was some mineral content causing that to happen.

That was 30 years ago this April.

[GaryV]

Not a bad idea, as Paradise can really get crowded and you won't be able to find parking on most summer weekends.

So they'll have to pave Paradise and put up a parking lot?

Thank you very much. I'll be here all weekend.

[kkt]

Not a bad idea, as Paradise can really get crowded and you won't be able to find parking on most summer weekends.

So they'll have to pave Paradise and put up a parking lot?

Thank you very much. I'll be here all weekend.

See, that's exactly what they are NOT doing.  I suppose it would be possible to enlarge the parking lot but it's pretty big already.  The parking lot is really not what people come to see.

I used the shuttle bus system in Yosemite a couple of times and it seemed pretty good.  It was nice to have someone else driving so I could look at the scenery instead of the road.  However I can understand the anxiety of being left behind after the last bus.  And I'm sure it must have cost a fair amount.