Where were you on 11 September 2001?

[english si]

The Holocaust was committed by Hitler in the name of religion - namely Roman Catholicism.

I'm certainly not going to make the other fallacy of him doing it out of his atheism, but he used a ton of stuff about Aryanism was the master-race, the fit race, the race that should survive (and Luther quotes that every Luther-lover wishes he never said, about how the (religion-wise, not race-wise) Jews should surely be under the same blasphemy laws as everyone else, out of context in a radical way). He frequently called Jews and Gipsies unfit to survive. Also bare in mind that it was the Nazis who made Eugenics a dirty word - Eugenics being the social Darwinism prevalent across the west until (well) after the war, started by those who loved Darwin's biological theories and wanted to apply them.

Hitler's Catholicism was - at best - nominal, and while it was an appalling thing that RCC supported him - not just the millions of nominals across Europe, but the ones who were committed Catholics, it wasn't a driving factor on any of his decisions. The religion that Hitler killed for was a warped view of evolution, mixed with nationalism and racism.

Stalin was rumored to be an Eastern Orthodox.

And followed a doctrine (Marxism) that hated religion, and thought it a barrier to evolutionary progress, so attempted a religocide on the Eastern Orthodox church. Half the irritation that Pussy Riot caused was that it was in the church which he ruined and left as ruins in a statement of what the politbureau thought religion did, and what they would do to it. The church Pussy Riot did their thing in is effectively a shrine to the millions Stalin killed for simply being Eastern Orthodox and refusing to be atheists.

The current "war on terror" is a religious war in all but name.

Yes, Islam vs whatever the fuck we westerners believe - which in the most part is secular humanism, saturated by Hegel, with some deistic sprinkles.

Though that's a myth - the Islam at play here is basically a political movement (if viewed in Western terms - religion and politics are almost one and the same in the Islamic worldview) and they are fighting a "democracy and freedom yeah!" political viewpoint. Both of which are quite Hegelian - there's two ideologies: liberal democracy and political Islam (which replaces the old enemy of liberal democracy - communism). Both view it progress to spread that ideology, both use violent means to get it spread, both view it as enlightening to be under their system and the answer to all the problems that those outside it currently have.

And of course, evolution doesn't necessitate social Darwinism - Darwin himself spent years arguing against it, Dawkins rightly rejects strongly the fallacy of making the short hop from "the fit will survive" to "the weak shouldn't survive".

My point is that if God is in charge of history, then he's doing a good job of showing out that loving atheism's second best argument against his existence (evolution) are monsters, given that the atrocities that typically make up atheism's best argument were committed by ardent evolutionists, acting in the name of evolution.

[bugo]

If this God feller is so in control of everything, why does He let so many bad things occur in His name?  The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, pogroms against Jews.  I could go on all night.

[NE2]

If a gardener is so in control of everything, why does he let so many bad things happen to his plants?

To God, we are but cucumbers planted in bullshit.

[bugo]

If a gardener is so in control of everything, why does he let so many bad things happen to his plants?

To God, we are but cucumbers planted in bullshit.

+1

[roadman]

I got to my office about half an hour before the first plane hit.   Found out about it when it was mentioned over the MetroTraffic working frequency - this was shortly before the MSM in Boston picked up the story and splashed it everywhere.

The word came down to us (and just about everyone else in Downtown Boston) to go home at about 10:30.  As our local transit system was now in mid-day service mode, and hadn't been told to anticipate a mass exodus (and thus perhaps schedule some extra trains and buses to accommodate people), it took me just over three hours to get home that day.  By comparison, my normal door-to-door commute, which involves a combination of driving, walking, train, and subway, is usually 50 to 55 minutes.

My birthday was the day before (9/10/01), and I recall remarking to my brother that evening "Well, I sure didn't expect the world to fall apart so quickly after I turned forty!"

[Beltway]

The Holocaust was committed by Hitler in the name of religion - namely Roman Catholicism.  Stalin was rumored to be an Eastern Orthodox.

Hitler and Stalin cannot hijack Christianity.  What they did was completely opposite to Christianity.

[agentsteel53]

My birthday was the day before (9/10/01), and I recall remarking to my brother that evening "Well, I sure didn't expect the world to fall apart so quickly after I turned forty!"

I remember putting down Tom Clancy's "The Sum of All Fears", the final scene of which is someone crashing a 747 into the White House.  I went to sleep thinking "that'll never happen"... that was on 9/10/2001.

[NE2]

The Holocaust was committed by Hitler in the name of religion - namely Roman Catholicism.  Stalin was rumored to be an Eastern Orthodox.

Hitler and Stalin cannot hijack Christianity.  What they did was completely opposite to Christianity.

What modern Christian leader has been anything but completely opposite to Christianity?

[formulanone]

I remember putting down Tom Clancy's "The Sum of All Fears"

I had just completed Kenzaburō Ōe's Hiroshima Notes, which described individuals in Hiroshima who had seemingly inexplicably survived the atomic bomb. But it kind of make me hope very strongly for days that suddenly dozens of survivors would come out of the wreckage, even though the logical part of me thought "no way".

Very weird ironies, now that I think about it.

[Beltway]

The Holocaust was committed by Hitler in the name of religion - namely Roman Catholicism.  Stalin was rumored to be an Eastern Orthodox.

Hitler and Stalin cannot hijack Christianity.  What they did was completely opposite to Christianity.

What modern Christian leader has been anything but completely opposite to Christianity?

Sounds like YOU are 180 degrees out of sync ...

[Scott5114]

His statement may have been rather strongly worded but there is a kernel of truth to it. Certainly couldn't be described as 180° out of sync. There are a lot of folks these days that shroud themselves in Christianity to support ideals counter to those espoused by Jesus, and often end up hoodwinking Christians into thinking those ideals stem from the Bible when they really don't.

Not that religious discussion is on topic in this thread specifically or has ever been allowed under the rules of the forum generally.

[NYYPhil777]

If a gardener is so in control of everything, why does he let so many bad things happen to his plants?

To God, we are but cucumbers planted in bullshit.

+1

I'll give some helpful advice- Unfortunately, NE2 hates +1s.

[NYYPhil777]

Nothing is cool or funny about September 11, 2011.

people who share your opinion include such luminaries as Osama bin Laden.

[kendancy66]

Here is what I recall.  I was watching good morning america about 8:00, and everything was normal.  They had showing street scene from NYC, with the great weather.  About 8:45, I left home in Annandale, VA to go to customer in Alexandria, VA on Duke Street.  On the way, listening to news, heard that airplane had struck WTC, at that time being reported as a bad accident.  About 10:00 am I called home after getting more news about WTC at customer site.  Wife said she heard a very large boom noise, when she was in attic of house.  I originally dismissed what she had heard, saying that airplane crashes were in NYC.  Later found out about Pentagon crash, and realized that she probably did hear the crash, as we live less than 8 miles from Pentagon, as the crow flies.  To stay off freeways, took Duke St west back to home in Annandale.  When I crossed I-395, I observed that there where police blocking access to I-395 North.  Also HOV lanes were opened to southbound traffic at that time (12:00), which is a lot earlier than normal.  Spent the rest of day watching news.

[vdeane]

Wow, didn't mean to spark a religious discussion here, just point out that events tend to be viewed differently when we look at the results (direct and indirect) rather than the costs.  For more I recommend Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast - specifically the Wrath of the Khans series (Alexander vs. Hitler and Nazi Tidbits are also good, but you have to pay $1-2 for them now).

Nice to know that it's ethical to kill millions of people in order to further "progress"

Of course, bugo's list of 20th Century atrocities were justified on those evolutionary grounds - Darwin giving a biological phenomenon that was similar to his father and grandfather's Hegelian worldview that the world opened the lid on what we now call 'Social Darwinism'.

Darwin himself had to repeatedly strenuously deny that Natural Selection by the Preservation of Favoured Races didn't mean that you should change "survival of the fittest" to "the weak shouldn't survive". Hegel's philosophy has become almost like air we breathe - we can't see it, but are constantly taking it in and spewing it out.

Indeed; the fact that we have a society like we do theoretically means that we can rise above "survival of the fittest", but sadly it doesn't seem to work that way.  Any debate on economics and/or entitlements today is pretty much just a referendum on social darwinism.

[kphoger]

Yeah.  Umm...  Hitler was raised a Catholic and believed in God, even if he held a tainted view of the Church.  But that doesn't mean the Holocaust was committed in the name of religion.  I think it's more accurate to say he occasionally used religion to justify his agenda, not that his agenda was born of religious ideals.

agentsteel53:  Mosquitoes.  LOL (and I don't say that often).  Also, are you serious about the timing of your book-reading experience?  'Cause that's amazing.

NE2:  Cucumbers.   

[Alps]

The Holocaust was committed by Hitler in the name of religion - namely Roman Catholicism.  Stalin was rumored to be an Eastern Orthodox.

Hitler and Stalin cannot hijack Christianity.  What they did was completely opposite to Christianity.

What modern Christian leader has been anything but completely opposite to Christianity?

Sounds like YOU are 180 degrees out of sync ...

He's a lot closer to the truth than the opposite. Most leaders are politicians, not devotees. Actual devotees tend to take religious positions in the church instead of government.

[Beltway]

What modern Christian leader has been anything but completely opposite to Christianity?

Sounds like YOU are 180 degrees out of sync ...

He's a lot closer to the truth than the opposite. Most leaders are politicians, not devotees. Actual devotees tend to take religious positions in the church instead of government.

Christian pastors do not hold political office while they pastor a church, at least it is very rare.

[vtk]

Senior year of high school.  My morning schedule was mostly empty to allow me to attend a math class at OSU, which hadn't started autumn quarter yet.  So I spent the first two periods helping out in the guidance office before third period study hall in the commons.  Towards the end of second period, I had just been given some news about National Merit Scholar stuff, and was heading to the commons when an office worker mentioned he heard via email that two planes had struck the twin towers.  I had imagined small aircraft and no more loss of life than a typical auto accident.

Not long into third period, someone turned on the TV in the commons.  I stayed there watching through study hall, fourth period lunch, fifth period lunch, and sixth period lunch.  When the first collapse happened, the reporter said the facade had fallen from the tower; I squinted at the screen, trying to see more clearly into the dust cloud, and thought 'lady, I don't think that tower is there anymore!'  By the time I headed to my seventh/eighth period class, both towers were piles of rubble, the pentagon blast had been deemed another air crash, and the media was closing in on the crash site in PA.

The rest of the day was easy, in a way; we still had to do our schoolwork, but the load seemed lighter, and nobody demanded full attention.

It seems to me the world sucks a little more than it used to before that day.

[bugo]

What modern Christian leader has been anything but completely opposite to Christianity?

Sounds like YOU are 180 degrees out of sync ...

He's a lot closer to the truth than the opposite. Most leaders are politicians, not devotees. Actual devotees tend to take religious positions in the church instead of government.

Christian pastors do not hold political office while they pastor a church, at least it is very rare.

Mike Huckabee is a good example.

[agentsteel53]

It seems to me the world sucks a little more than it used to before that day.

yes, it's called the TSA.

apart from that, the world is about the same.  some people are assholes.  most are not.

[Alex]

It seems to me the world sucks a little more than it used to before that day.

yes, it's called the TSA.

apart from that, the world is about the same.  some people are assholes.  most are not.

Not just TSA, but also county police that pull you over under the guise that "terrorists routinely run up this highway and drive erratically because they are running for 24 straight hours", when they are just looking for anything to cite you with.

Or MTA bridges and tunnels with their photography prohibited signs.

The world was a better place pre 9/11, but some will contend it was because "our watch was down and now it is not"...

[agentsteel53]

Not just TSA, but also county police that pull you over under the guise that "terrorists routinely run up this highway and drive erratically because they are running for 24 straight hours", when they are just looking for anything to cite you with.

Or MTA bridges and tunnels with their photography prohibited signs.

The world was a better place pre 9/11, but some will contend it was because "our watch was down and now it is not"...

indeed.  who has done the most damage to US infrastructure, community, and well-being, since Sept. 10th, 2001?

the US Government.

vote Bin Laden!

[kphoger]

Not just TSA, but also county police that pull you over under the guise that "terrorists routinely run up this highway and drive erratically because they are running for 24 straight hours", when they are just looking for anything to cite you with.

Or MTA bridges and tunnels with their photography prohibited signs.

The world was a better place pre 9/11, but some will contend it was because "our watch was down and now it is not"...

indeed.  who has done the most damage to US infrastructure, community, and well-being, since Sept. 10th, 2001?

the US Government.

vote Bin Laden!

I don't think he's on my state's ballot.

I do share the sentiment that the world is a little bit suckier than before 9/11, but I can't put my finger exactly on what's suckier.  Or it could be that what is making the world suckier is not related or only tangentally related to 9/11.  Suckier is a cool word.  Suckier.

[Dr Frankenstein]

Not just TSA, but also county police that pull you over under the guise that "terrorists routinely run up this highway and drive erratically because they are running for 24 straight hours", when they are just looking for anything to cite you with.

Or taking photos of things people don't usually take photos of, especially around NYC. I got harrassed by Newark police for taking photos outside of Penn Station (could've been worse, I have a bunch of pics from the inside, including platforms, rail signals and such; only later did I learn that the PA specifically prohibits taking photos of their stuff, especially the PATH;). Even railfans in Montreal's Central Station had to deal with security for taking photos of something as public as the departures board in the concourse. More recently, I went through a TSA checkpoint... at the Rensselaer Amtrak station, and a brainwashing video about how important and good those checkpoints are was playing in New York's Penn Station while I was waiting before my return trip.

I have muslim friends and I can confirm that there's obvious profiling at security checkpoints and sometimes even customs.