My car is slowly dying, so I want to save up for a compact pickup. My grandpa drives a 2WD Datsun ('83) that gets 31 hwy/27 city. I would like either a 94-04 Ranger (single cab) or an older Datsun, fuel economy being the key. I'm not looking to tow anything larger than a 14' aluminum boat. Any advice on where to get one with relatively low miles? Thanks!
This is what I thought of first when I read the title:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pimall.com%2Fnais%2Fimages%2Famicrodsmall.jpg&hash=d028e70212277034e5b615f5a4775f78520baa97)
If you're looking for old but nice, eBay is probably the way to go. If you're just looking for a ten year old Ranger, your local classifieds/cars.com should have plenty of them. I'd tend to want to buy a used truck from a dealer instead of a private party, since the folks that swap cars out at dealers generally aren't the people that also use trucks as trucks, so you'll likely find a better example that way, though that may be less applicable with compact trucks.
I'd probably look for one without a trailer hitch and then get a trailer hitch for it- if it has a hitch, it's more likely to have towed a lot in the past and be more worn out because of it.
Quote from: mcdonaat on September 04, 2013, 03:59:43 AMMy grandpa drives a 2WD Datsun ('83) that gets 31 hwy/27 city. I would like either a 94-04 Ranger (single cab) or an older Datsun, fuel economy being the key. I'm not looking to tow anything larger than a 14' aluminum boat. Any advice on where to get one with relatively low miles? Thanks!
FYI, depending on your price-range; Ford Rangers were still made up until a couple of years ago. A Ford dealer
might still have a left-over model in stock though unlikely at this point.
In terms of Datsuns, are you looking for something
older than '83? After that, all Datsuns became Nissans and their
hardbody trucks first rolled out in 1986-87.
Quote from: PHLBOS on September 04, 2013, 05:50:03 PM
Quote from: mcdonaat on September 04, 2013, 03:59:43 AMMy grandpa drives a 2WD Datsun ('83) that gets 31 hwy/27 city. I would like either a 94-04 Ranger (single cab) or an older Datsun, fuel economy being the key. I'm not looking to tow anything larger than a 14' aluminum boat. Any advice on where to get one with relatively low miles? Thanks!
FYI, depending on your price-range; Ford Rangers were still made up until a couple of years ago. A Ford dealer might still have a left-over model in stock though unlikely at this point.
In terms of Datsuns, are you looking for something older than '83? After that, all Datsuns became Nissans and their hardbody trucks first rolled out in 1986-87.
Which implies softbody trucks? That name always puzzled me - some sort of marketing gimmick that flew over my young head.
Where has the market for small pickups gone?
I don't want a full-sized truck. Too big and they burn too much gas. I always liked the Chevy S-10s and Ford Rangers. I've been very pleased with my 2000 Toyota Tacoma extended cab 4WD, but it is 13 years old and has 250K miles on it so I don't know how much longer it will last.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 05, 2013, 12:09:45 PM
Where has the market for small pickups gone?
I don't want a full-sized truck. Too big and they burn too much gas.
It's easy enough to option out an F150 or C1500 from a poverty-spec "fleet" trim package to some big-motor, 4WD, off-road-ready truck from $22K to $50K just by questioning the buyer's insecurities. I'd heard the profit margins were therefore greater than a Ranger/S10; once you'd put enough options into it, it became easy to point to the bigger truck as an alternative.
Sales bore this out, and the Ranger, a former best-seller in the segment, fell away to the Colorado and the Tacoma.
But I agree, I'd have little to no use for a full-size truck; with the passenger-car market offering some smaller sizes (the so-called A or B-segment), you'd think some sort of small truck market would also make itself available, but I suppose it would only sell in congested urban areas.
what would you do with a truck in an urban environment?
Quote from: hbelkins on September 05, 2013, 12:09:45 PM
Where has the market for small pickups gone?
I don't want a full-sized truck. Too big and they burn too much gas. I always liked the Chevy S-10s and Ford Rangers. I've been very pleased with my 2000 Toyota Tacoma extended cab 4WD, but it is 13 years old and has 250K miles on it so I don't know how much longer it will last.
Discontinuing the Ranger is one of Ford's few recent moves that made me sad, especially when they justified it with "sales are declining." Sales were declining because you were still using a platform from the 80s and a body from 1993! Apparently the Ranger they sell now in international markets (not here, thanks to the "chicken tax" on light trucks) is "too close in size to the F-150", and the F-150 can get gas mileage that's pretty close anyway. So apparently Ford thinks you only wanted a compact pickup for the fuel economy, and with that a moot point, you'll be quiet. :banghead:
As for other brands... model bloat happens to everyone. It's like how the Corolla is as big as a Camry from 20 years ago, so Toyota introduced the Yaris to fill the Corolla's old slot. Small pickups have gotten bigger, too, but (unfortunately) nobody's reintroducing compact trucks yet.
In the smaller-than-full-sized truck world, at least the Colorado/Canyon are coming back. That's about the best news you'll get for now.
Quote from: getemngo on September 05, 2013, 02:16:52 PM
"chicken tax"
?
Quotemodel bloat happens to everyone. It's like how the Corolla is as big as a Camry from 20 years ago, so Toyota introduced the Yaris to fill the Corolla's old slot.
same with Honda... the current Honda Fit is about the size of an early 80s Accord!
has this always been a trend, or is it just the last 15 years that saw the "I drive a monster SUV. fuck you." movement?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 05, 2013, 02:23:37 PM
Quote from: getemngo on September 05, 2013, 02:16:52 PM
"chicken tax"
?
The chicken tax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax) is a 25% tariff on potato starch, dextrin, brandy, and light trucks imposed in 1963 by the United States under President Lyndon B. Johnson in response to tariffs placed by France and West Germany on importation of U.S. chicken.That's why virtually every pickup truck you see in the US, including the Tacoma, Titan, Ridgeline, etc., is manufactured in North America. Too expensive to import.
Quote from: getemngo on September 05, 2013, 02:33:59 PMpotato starch, dextrin, brandy, and light trucks
talk about a bizarre result of political favors!
"quick, what should we raise our import duties on?"
"dunno Mr. President - but the domestic light trucks lobby guy is outside, and the domestic potato starch lobby guy is coming at 3pm..."
Wow, didn't know about the "chicken tax". I've heard of auto/truck import taxes, but that's
borderline insanity typical Big Three:
If you can't beat them, lobby against them. I always was under the impression that the import brands manufactured them here because the US was far and away the largest truck-buying market, with Canada and Mexico also being big players.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 05, 2013, 02:23:37 PM
...the current Honda Fit is about the size of an early 80s Accord!
has this always been a trend, or is it just the last 15 years that saw the "I drive a monster SUV. fuck you." movement?
To be fair, almost all cars grew in size over the years: Look at a first-or-second-generation Corvette, and compare it in size to the 1980's-today models. Or the original Ford Thunderbird; it's surprisingly small because sports cars were smaller in size than mid-size and full-size models. The Grand Touring cars were the bigger sports-cars, but even then, they were pretty lithe in comparison to the average vehicles on the road.
The first Japanese imports were also tiny; a VW Beetle would dwarf many of them. Toyota, Honda, Datsun, Mazda carved out a niche in the Late-1960s/early-1970s, but it ironically after the first oil crisis, they grew somewhat in size to meet American public demand. So the Civic grew, the Accord grew; and about every two generations, the diminutive model would eventually match the dimensions of the larger one. They'd been making cars in the sub-compact range (now the industry calls it "B-segment") like the Fit, Yaris, Versa, et al, for years in other markets, since America had kind of dismissed the sub-compact market since the mid-1990s. Heck, the silly-ass Smart was introduced in Europe ten years before it arrived here.
Quote from: formulanone on September 05, 2013, 07:30:12 PMthe silly-ass Smart
given that that's what most people think of when they think of a small car... yeah I can see why most people are averse to small cars.
the Fiat 500 is cute, and is about the same size as its 1960s ancestor, no?
hahaha no
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thecrusaderschs.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F03%2FFiat-500-NEW-vs-OLD.jpg&hash=6d81e0acea772ee5814b690314d42c9ea3eac6a7)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffrancescooliveri.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F08%2FFiat500-Napoli-small.jpg&hash=f6d4a344f053f4face582aad5fd8acf38814ef6c)
I was clearly mistaken.
still cute, though. not ugly like that Smart thing, which also has terrible MPG.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 05, 2013, 07:46:47 PM
Quote from: formulanone on September 05, 2013, 07:30:12 PMthe silly-ass Smart
given that that's what most people think of when they think of a small car... yeah I can see why most people are averse to small cars.
Heck, I drive a little Scion, which is roughly 13 feet long.
I've rented a modern 500, and it's okay if you brought roll-aboard luggage only...Essentially seating for two. I have to recline in it to be comfortable, but caning it corners while quite on the gas pedal is like flicking a go-kart. You do have to punch it to keep up with 50-mph traffic. Kind of plasticy on the inside. It's selling fairly well, considering everything against it...but it's 10x more fun than the Smart I'd driven.
Last I heard, ford was thinking about bringing back the F-100 to replace the ranger. Is that no longer happening?
That was a rumor like five years ago, so I'd guess no. I think the V6 F-150 is the Ranger replacement.
Quote from: formulanone on September 05, 2013, 07:30:12 PM
Wow, didn't know about the "chicken tax". I've heard of auto/truck import taxes, but that's borderline insanity typical Big Three: If you can't beat them, lobby against them. I always was under the impression that the import brands manufactured them here because the US was far and away the largest truck-buying market, with Canada and Mexico also being big players.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 05, 2013, 02:23:37 PM
...the current Honda Fit is about the size of an early 80s Accord!
has this always been a trend, or is it just the last 15 years that saw the "I drive a monster SUV. fuck you." movement?
To be fair, almost all cars grew in size over the years: Look at a first-or-second-generation Corvette, and compare it in size to the 1980's-today models. Or the original Ford Thunderbird; it's surprisingly small because sports cars were smaller in size than mid-size and full-size models. The Grand Touring cars were the bigger sports-cars, but even then, they were pretty lithe in comparison to the average vehicles on the road.
The first Japanese imports were also tiny; a VW Beetle would dwarf many of them. Toyota, Honda, Datsun, Mazda carved out a niche in the Late-1960s/early-1970s, but it ironically after the first oil crisis, they grew somewhat in size to meet American public demand. So the Civic grew, the Accord grew; and about every two generations, the diminutive model would eventually match the dimensions of the larger one. They'd been making cars in the sub-compact range (now the industry calls it "B-segment") like the Fit, Yaris, Versa, et al, for years in other markets, since America had kind of dismissed the sub-compact market since the mid-1990s. Heck, the silly-ass Smart was introduced in Europe ten years before it arrived here.
Indeed, a new Civic is identical in size (and performance, in the case of the Si) as the newer and larger of my two Preludes, maybe even slightly larger than it. (It's also much uglier, but that's for another forum.) The 8th generation (2007-12) Accord sedan was classified as a full-size car, although the slightly smaller 9th gen puts it back in the mid-size category.
Quote from: corco on September 05, 2013, 10:08:43 PM
That was a rumor like five years ago, so I'd guess no. I think the V6 F-150 is the Ranger replacement.
According to this article (http://www.trucktrend.com/roadtests/pickup/163_1304_2013_global_market_ford_ranger_first_drive/) (and other similar ones I have read), it looks like the Ranger will live off-shore for the foreseeable future.
Well right, Ford has been constantly updating the international Ranger for decades while we've been stuck with the crummy old version for..wait why? Usually they've been Mazda designs- not the newest one though. Basically Ford took care of Ford/Mazda compact pickups in North America, while Mazda took care of Ford/Mazda compact pickups everywhere else.
Quote from: corco on September 05, 2013, 11:14:15 PM
Well right, Ford has been constantly updating the international Ranger for decades while we've been stuck with the crummy old version for..wait why? Usually they've been Mazda designs- not the newest one though. Basically Ford took care of Ford/Mazda compact pickups in North America, while Mazda took care of Ford/Mazda compact pickups everywhere else.
Kind of like with the full-sized vans. The current E-series is a year older than the last Ranger (it's 22 now!), and riding on a platform from
1975, and Ford's finally relenting and bringing over the better European vans... in 2015. Or like how the States got skipped over entirely for the second generation Focus...
The real question is, why do all of an American company's best cars come from Europe and not the US? The Fiesta, Focus, C-Max, Fusion, Escape, and Transit Connect were all developed overseas. Good for Ford for making good cars again, but there's something to be said for national identity. Australia can relate too, since they're losing
all their exclusive Fords in a couple years. :no:
The short answer is that it costs a lot to federalize cars for sale in the US market, and the Big 3 put their eggs into the SUV basket in the North American market for many years, pumping R&D into Expeditions instead of Focuses. SUVs are a lot more profitable than passenger cars when they're selling, and people were buying them for a long time.
We didn't get new Focuses because Ford didn't make much money on them, and slapping a new grille on is a lot cheaper than designing a new Focus that meets both Euro and US safety standards. In Europe, Ford depended on the profits from things like Focuses for survival, so that market got the R&D attention.
The One Ford policy is a long time coming now...it's sad, but I guess it's progress.
Quote from: getemngo on September 05, 2013, 11:58:21 PM
Quote from: corco on September 05, 2013, 11:14:15 PM
Well right, Ford has been constantly updating the international Ranger for decades while we've been stuck with the crummy old version for..wait why? Usually they've been Mazda designs- not the newest one though. Basically Ford took care of Ford/Mazda compact pickups in North America, while Mazda took care of Ford/Mazda compact pickups everywhere else.
Kind of like with the full-sized vans. The current E-series is a year older than the last Ranger (it's 22 now!), and riding on a platform from 1975, and Ford's finally relenting and bringing over the better European vans... in 2015. Or like how the States got skipped over entirely for the second generation Focus...
In the case of the E-series, why bother with major updates when you remain at the top while doing essentially nothing? Why spend the capital when you don't have to? The only reason the Transit is coming over is because of the success of the Sprinter. Look how long they held on to the panther chassis with the Crown Vic.
QuoteThe real question is, why do all of an American company's best cars come from Europe and not the US? The Fiesta, Focus, C-Max, Fusion, Escape, and Transit Connect were all developed overseas. Good for Ford for making good cars again, but there's something to be said for national identity. Australia can relate too, since they're losing all their exclusive Fords in a couple years. :no:
ALL :hmmm: I don't think the Mustang came form across the pond... In any case, they're looking to save money like everyone else. Personally, I rather have a viable company rather than one who has gone bankrupt just to keep a shrinking population of patriotic gearheads happy.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 05, 2013, 12:09:45 PM
Where has the market for small pickups gone?
I don't want a full-sized truck. Too big and they burn too much gas. I always liked the Chevy S-10s and Ford Rangers. I've been very pleased with my 2000 Toyota Tacoma extended cab 4WD, but it is 13 years old and has 250K miles on it so I don't know how much longer it will last.
If you've taken care of it well, my guess is that it has another 13 years and quarter-million miles left in it. Modern cars and trucks are like a good wife: you don't trade it in for a newer model just because it's been around the block a few times. There's no reason not to expect 400,000 to 500,000 miles. Unless you're having some kind of problem, I wouldn't worry about getting something else.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 05, 2013, 12:09:45 PMWhere has the market for small pickups gone?
It largely splintered off between either small SUVs, (mini) cargo vans or even full-size trucks.
In the case of the Ranger, I'm sure the original Escape (launched in 2001) cut into some of the Ranger's market quite a bit.
The other issue w/the Ranger was that Ford basically let it go stale when its competitors, both domestic & import, updated or restyled their small trucks more frequently. Heck, even the larger F-series trucks underwent
three major restyles/body changes since 1997 whereas the Ranger barely made one in the same time-frame (the base cab was extended three inches in the back in 1998). IMHO, therein lies the problem.
It's worth noting that Ford originally had plans to drop the Ranger after 2008; but increased sales due to rising gas prices at the time caused them to delay that move by about 3 years.
One would think that w/now-rising CAFE standards, the main reason why trucks like the original Rangers & S-10s came into being in the early 80s, a revival in small pick-up truck sales would occur in the U.S.; apparently not yet.
Quote from: Steve on September 04, 2013, 11:51:17 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on September 04, 2013, 05:50:03 PMIn terms of Datsuns, are you looking for something older than '83? After that, all Datsuns became Nissans and their hardbody trucks first rolled out in 1986-87.
Which implies softbody trucks? That name always puzzled me - some sort of marketing gimmick that flew over my young head.
The reasoning behind Nissan's
hardbody term for their trucks at the time was because they wanted to convey that these then-new trucks were compact but solid and not the tin-can predecessors of the previous generations. Back then, nearly every import-designed/built truck was a basically a tin-can on wheels that folded on impact. Not the safest vehicles from a crash-worthy perspective. Plus, the more solid Ford Rangers and Chevy S-10s were starting to take a bite in a market that was once owned by import-brands & designs. The older Ford Courier and Chevy LUV trucks were essentially rebadged Mazdas and Isuzus respectively.
Quote from: DaBigE on September 06, 2013, 12:25:22 AMIn the case of the E-series, why bother with major updates when you remain at the top while doing essentially nothing? Why spend the capital when you don't have to?
The main difference between the E-series and the Ranger is that the small pick-up truck market had a larger retail following than the van market. By the late 90s, full-size & even mid-size SUVs essentially gobbled up most of the full-size passenger and conversion van market to a point that most vans sold were of the cargo variety. Passenger versions are still sold to either schools or airports (as shuttles) or to very large families that actually need more than a 8/9-passenger SUV to haul everyone in
one vehicle.
Quote from: DaBigE on September 06, 2013, 12:25:22 AMLook how long they held on to the panther chassis with the Crown Vic.
Again, another vehicle that Ford overtly neglected over the last decade. Instead of wasting money on that D3 platform (Five Hundred/Montego/2008-current Taurus/Sable/MKS) that's not been a stellar seller for Ford; they could've upgraded the Panther platform and restyled the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis/Town Car to keep it fresh, new and reasonably current.
The 4 cylinder Rangers aren't that great. I'd much rather have an S-10 if you're looking for that type of a pickup.
Quote from: formulanone on September 05, 2013, 02:00:53 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 05, 2013, 12:09:45 PM
Where has the market for small pickups gone?
I don't want a full-sized truck. Too big and they burn too much gas.
It's easy enough to option out an F150 or C1500 from a poverty-spec "fleet" trim package to some big-motor, 4WD, off-road-ready truck from $22K to $50K just by questioning the buyer's insecurities. I'd heard the profit margins were therefore greater than a Ranger/S10; once you'd put enough options into it, it became easy to point to the bigger truck as an alternative.
Sales bore this out, and the Ranger, a former best-seller in the segment, fell away to the Colorado and the Tacoma.
But I agree, I'd have little to no use for a full-size truck; with the passenger-car market offering some smaller sizes (the so-called A or B-segment), you'd think some sort of small truck market would also make itself available, but I suppose it would only sell in congested urban areas.
If they would only make a truck the size of the '60s-'80s full sized pickups. The new pickup trucks are monsters and they are too tall to load cargo over the side unless you're 6'8" or taller.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 05, 2013, 02:03:24 PM
what would you do with a truck in an urban environment?
Help your friends move large objects. If you own a pickup in the city, everybody will be your best friend.
Quote from: bugo on September 18, 2013, 09:41:09 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 05, 2013, 02:03:24 PM
what would you do with a truck in an urban environment?
Help your friends move large objects. If you own a pickup in the city, everybody will be your best friend.
Or move large objects for yourself. Ikea furniture? Wood chips for your garden? A dresser from Goodwill? Take your bicycle down to the trail? No problem. I own an SUV and although I don't have a family a car would never suit my needs. If you need to haul tall and/or long and/or dirty stuff you might want a pickup instead of an SUV or minivan.
Quote from: getemngo on September 05, 2013, 02:16:52 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 05, 2013, 12:09:45 PM
Where has the market for small pickups gone?
I don't want a full-sized truck. Too big and they burn too much gas. I always liked the Chevy S-10s and Ford Rangers. I've been very pleased with my 2000 Toyota Tacoma extended cab 4WD, but it is 13 years old and has 250K miles on it so I don't know how much longer it will last.
Discontinuing the Ranger is one of Ford's few recent moves that made me sad, especially when they justified it with "sales are declining." Sales were declining because you were still using a platform from the 80s and a body from 1993! Apparently the Ranger they sell now in international markets (not here, thanks to the "chicken tax" on light trucks) is "too close in size to the F-150", and the F-150 can get gas mileage that's pretty close anyway. So apparently Ford thinks you only wanted a compact pickup for the fuel economy, and with that a moot point, you'll be quiet. :banghead:
Rangers don't get good mileage. A fully loaded V6 4x4 gets maybe 18 on the highway.
Ford claims they weren't selling enough Rangers, but they were selling over 50,000 a year, which isn't bad for a platform that was amortized decades ago.
Quote from: getemngo on September 05, 2013, 02:33:59 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 05, 2013, 02:23:37 PM
Quote from: getemngo on September 05, 2013, 02:16:52 PM
"chicken tax"
?
The chicken tax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax) is a 25% tariff on potato starch, dextrin, brandy, and light trucks imposed in 1963 by the United States under President Lyndon B. Johnson in response to tariffs placed by France and West Germany on importation of U.S. chicken.
That's why virtually every pickup truck you see in the US, including the Tacoma, Titan, Ridgeline, etc., is manufactured in North America. Too expensive to import.
The Ford Transit Connect van is built in Turkey with a full interior, shipped to the US where the interior is removed to circumvent the chicken tax.
Quote from: PHLBOS on September 18, 2013, 06:19:04 PM
Quote from: DaBigE on September 06, 2013, 12:25:22 AMIn the case of the E-series, why bother with major updates when you remain at the top while doing essentially nothing? Why spend the capital when you don't have to?
The main difference between the E-series and the Ranger is that the small pick-up truck market had a larger retail following than the van market. By the late 90s, full-size & even mid-size SUVs essentially gobbled up most of the full-size passenger and conversion van market to a point that most vans sold were of the cargo variety. Passenger versions are still sold to either schools or airports (as shuttles) or to very large families that actually need more than a 8/9-passenger SUV to haul everyone in one vehicle.
I think you're reading a bit too much into my post. I was never intending my response to be a comparison between the Ranger and the E-Series.
Quote from: PHLBOS on September 18, 2013, 06:19:04 PM
Quote from: DaBigE on September 06, 2013, 12:25:22 AMLook how long they held on to the panther chassis with the Crown Vic.
Again, another vehicle that Ford overtly neglected over the last decade. Instead of wasting money on that D3 platform (Five Hundred/Montego/2008-current Taurus/Sable/MKS) that's not been a stellar seller for Ford; they could've upgraded the Panther platform and restyled the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis/Town Car to keep it fresh, new and reasonably current.
Ford neglected it because they realized that no mater what they did to it, the car would be stuck with the "geezermobile" stigma. Like your comment regarding the sales of the E-Series, Ford knew that the car would only sell in fleet versions and fleets
hate major design changes, since it means additional up-fitting costs. Furthermore, cosmetic changes alone would not help the Panther platform family, as there were design flaws beginning with the frame (gas tank position to name one big one).
Quote from: DaBigE on September 18, 2013, 10:45:47 PMFord neglected it because they realized that no mater what they did to it, the car would be stuck with the "geezermobile" stigma.
To some degree, Chrysler & Dodge disproved such when they launched their RWD 300s and Charger sedans in 2005 and 2006 respectively. The 300's now got a
Hood/Gangsta stigma.
Before GM killed off its RWD B & C-body platforms after 1996; Chevy's Impala SS helped remove some of the geezer stigma. Had Mercury launched its Grand Marquis-based Marauder a few years earlier than it did and priced it more competitively (it stickered about $5000 higher than the most loaded Grand Marquis whereas the mid-90s Impala SS was closer in price to the top-end Caprice); it would've seen better sales.
Had Lincoln gave production approval of its Continental Concept car and placed it even on its Panther platform to reduce costs, it would've attracted more retail buyers as well as kept fleet buyers (& limo coach-builders); especially had it been launched circa 2005; a few years before the economy really hit the fan.
2002 Continental Concept car displays retro-cues from the '61-'69 suicide-door era Continentals
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.empowernetwork.com%2F3djohnboy%2Ffiles%2F2013%2F03%2F2002-lincoln-continental-concept-car-empower-n.jpg&hash=7198f84edcd18e359d1541d03cb421ba1dcb4ac2)
IMHO, a production-version of the above (the suicide doors probably wouldn't survive into production) would've been a much more worthy flagship and successor to the Town Car than the anemic MKS.
Quote from: DaBigE on September 18, 2013, 10:45:47 PMFurthermore, cosmetic changes alone would not help the Panther platform family, as there were design flaws beginning with the frame (gas tank position to name one big one).
As one who has owned a '97 Crown Vic. since new, I can tell you that much of that was more of an aftermarket cop equipment installation/alteration-issue than anything else (drilling holes on the frame near gas tank to install/attach some police-related equipment). To the best of my knowledge, non-police Panthers (like my Crown Vic, the Grand Marquis & the slightly larger Town Car) were
never part of the gas tank issue; I've never received any notice (recall or other) regarding such to date.
Also, the gas tank issue involved cop cars
after the '92 aero make-over (a major cosmetic and engine change).
All of the '79-'91 "Box" models (that utilized the same exact platform) didn't have the issue either that I'm aware of. The '92 redesign may have involved a enough of a slight change to the trunk, gas tank and/or frame to create an issue for cop add-on equipment.
The main issue with Ford's Panther platform and GM's old RWD B & C body platforms was that neither Ford nor GM expected them to have as long of a production run as they did when they were first launched in the late-70s as "downsized" full-size cars. At best, the platforms were only supposed to have a 6-to-8 year run; but when gas prices leveled off and dropped a bit, a more conservative President & Senate kept any future increases to the CAFE standard at bay (it even dropped a tad from 27.5 mpg to 26 mpg for about 3 years in the late-80s to keep the 5.8L Crown Vic cop cars from getting hit w/a gas-guzzler tax), sales of larger cars increased.
If one were to take Doc Brown's DeLorean into the mid-70s and tell the designers of the Panther and B/C-body platforms that it would have a 32 and 19 respectively year production run; maybe they would've been a little more daring in offering more elaborate options & packages (to erase some of the geezer and fleet stigmas), maybe even a convertible (a ragtop Marauder did appear in a Chicago car show in the early 2000s). A redention of the Impala SS or Ford XL would've been sweet had it been offered in the mid-80s when coupe variants of each still existed.