I was just looking through maps and street views of the Garden State Parkway (obviously the portions where I haven't been very frequently), and it seems like a lot of its service areas are accessible from local roads. Cheesequake, of course, also serves as a park and ride (https://www.google.com/maps/preview#!data=!1m8!1m3!1d3!2d-74.29329!3d40.469284!2m2!1f98.33!2f69.66!4f75!2m9!1e1!2m4!1sE9rJL0mMiWfGvIN_yqqdQA!2e0!9m1!6s%C2%A9+2014+Google!5m2!1sE9rJL0mMiWfGvIN_yqqdQA!2e0&fid=5), but there is also this one: https://www.google.com/maps/preview#!data=!1m8!1m3!1d3!2d-74.254125!3d40.697578!2m2!1f311.31!2f61!4f75!2m9!1e1!2m4!1sFf--7VTGoqLbrm5NwRDAUQ!2e0!9m1!6sVauxhall+Road!5m2!1sFf--7VTGoqLbrm5NwRDAUQ!2e0&fid=5 which even doubles as a parkway entrance (and backdoor exit to avoid a toll?). How common is it to have service areas on toll roads accessible from outside?
I would think almost all of them. All of the PA Turnpike service plazas have a back driveway from local roads that leads out to a small parking lot separated from the main service plaza parking area by a fence or section of guard rail. These are necessary so that plaza workers can get to their jobs without paying a toll–and, with many toll road interchanges being several miles apart, going far out of their way to get home after a shift.
As a matter of fact, I remember that the back entrance to the Allentown Service Plaza from Cetronia Road was even marked with a sign depicting the Roy Rogers and Big Boy logos. I don't know if it survived the recent remodel, but I always wondered whether that was intended to attract local customers or merely identify the driveway for new and prospective employees. I used it several times when I lived in the Lehigh Valley.
This doesn't seem to apply to the Mass Pike.
I just checked a handful on the Mass Pike (Lee, Blandford, Ludlow) and at least those ones have access driveways coming from local roads.
Quote from: briantroutman on January 16, 2014, 11:05:42 PM
I would think almost all of them. All of the PA Turnpike service plazas have a back driveway from local roads that leads out to a small parking lot separated from the main service plaza parking area by a fence or section of guard rail. These are necessary so that plaza workers can get to their jobs without paying a tolland, with many toll road interchanges being several miles apart, going far out of their way to get home after a shift.
As a matter of fact, I remember that the back entrance to the Allentown Service Plaza from Cetronia Road was even marked with a sign depicting the Roy Rogers and Big Boy logos. I don't know if it survived the recent remodel, but I always wondered whether that was intended to attract local customers or merely identify the driveway for new and prospective employees. I used it several times when I lived in the Lehigh Valley.
Are they all open to the public, and allow one to enter or exit the toll road , though?
My dorm is near the Brookdale South Service Area on the Garden State Parkway. There is a back entrance which services as a park and ride and has signage specifically detailing it.
Quote from: bzakharin on January 16, 2014, 11:29:31 PM
Are they all open to the public, and allow one to enter or exit the toll road , though?
To answer your second question first, no, you can't use them to enter or exit the toll road. These lots are gated off from the rest of the service area parking lot, and there's usually a marked pedestrian crosswalk going from the employee parking lot to the service plaza building. There are vehicular gates so that state police, delivery trucks, maintenance vehicles, etc. can access the main parking area, but these are locked under normal circumstances.
As to whether they're open to the public–that's what I was wondering. I've never seen a sign that says "Employees Only". I doubt they mind.
Quote from: bzakharin on January 16, 2014, 10:58:17 PM
which even doubles as a parkway entrance (and backdoor exit to avoid a toll?)...
Oh–I see what you were getting at.
First of all, you're not avoiding a toll because the GSP uses a barrier toll system–where you pay every so many miles at a toll plaza that goes across the entire mainline of the road. That's different from a ticket system, like on the NJ or PA Turnpikes, where you take a ticket entering and pay when you leave. You're not avoiding anything–you'll pay the exact same amount entering at the Vauxhall Service Plaza as you would entering from NJ 82 (Morris Ave), the nearest "legitimate" entrance.
I thought there were places where you could use the GSP accesses to avoid a toll, but a quick look turns up nothing. They can be used as "secret entrances" however, e.g. from Belmar Boulevard in Wall or Bordentown Avenue in South Amboy. The latter more or less counts, but it's really only a free section from Matawan Road, where there are no ramp tolls. (And per the Goog it's signed "official use and academy parking only", but maybe you can exit there.)
But the GSP toll structure is all fucked up post-one-way tolling.
Quote from: 1 on January 16, 2014, 11:09:07 PM
This doesn't seem to apply to the Mass Pike.
Actually, the Charlton Service Plaza off I-90 Eastbound is accessible from US 20. Just don't try to get to/from the Pike from that road.
Charlton Plaza Entrance from US 20 (http://goo.gl/maps/txuZW)
not a toll road, but you can access I-80 from US-6 via the Melia Hill rest area in Nebraska.
http://goo.gl/maps/siyLW
The West Gardiner Service Plaza in Maine (http://goo.gl/maps/UBVDZ) is located off a local road. You exit the Maine Turnpike (or I-295) to reach it.
The thing I wondered about when I read about that plaza is their toll voucher system. It's located north of a Turnpike toll barrier. If you're using the Turnpike northbound, you go through the barrier, exit to the service plaza, then enter northbound I-295, go through another toll barrier, and re-enter the Turnpike. If you're using the Turnpike southbound, you do that in reverse. Either way, you have to go through two toll barriers. So they have a system to avoid that. E-ZPass users don't get charged at the second plaza as long as they pass through within a certain time. Cash users obtain a voucher at the toll plaza; the articles I saw said there were to be machines dispensing the vouchers (presumably to reduce the hassle for employees). See here for one of the articles: http://www.mrlakefront.net/newsprint.taf?news_id=773 The Maine Turnpike Authority website also mentioned vouchers.
What I wondered about was how they avoided abuses of this system. Since the service area is off a local road, couldn't anyone go to the machine, get a voucher, and drive free on the Turnpike? Apparently the Maine Turnpike Authority must have had the same question, because it seems they've changed the system: According to the Turnpike Authority's website, a cash-payer who wishes to use the service plaza now must request two copies of a receipt when paying the toll and must then hand the yellow copy of the receipt to the toll-taker at the other plaza. The voucher system is gone. I think this is new within the past two years because when we discussed this in another thread in 2011, the Turnpike Authority's site still mentioned the vouchers.
(All this begs the question of why most people would be making that movement anyway, as it is more direct and generally faster to take I-295 instead of the Turnpike. People using I-295 can access the service plaza but face no issue as to double tolling. Obviously some of us might use the longer Turnpike route for clinch reasons or the like, but the general public has never heard of nor cares about the concept of clinching a highway!)
At one point, if you wanted an NJ EZ Pass tag, the EZ Pass website gave you the backroad directions to the 1st Service Plaza on the NB side - the John Fenwick Service Plaza, a few miles north of Interchange 1. Those directions don't appear to exist on the website anymore though.
Quote from: bzakharin on January 16, 2014, 10:58:17 PM
...but there is also this one: https://www.google.com/maps/preview#!data=!1m8!1m3!1d3!2d-74.254125!3d40.697578!2m2!1f311.31!2f61!4f75!2m9!1e1!2m4!1sFf--7VTGoqLbrm5NwRDAUQ!2e0!9m1!6sVauxhall+Road!5m2!1sFf--7VTGoqLbrm5NwRDAUQ!2e0&fid=5 which even doubles as a parkway entrance (and backdoor exit to avoid a toll?).
You'll notice on this aerial view: http://goo.gl/maps/lsC3r , that anyone entering the highway via this service plaza encounters a toll within a 1/2 mile. There are other instances on the Parkway where one can enter, travel several miles, then exit, without paying a toll.
There is another instance much further south on the GSP (http://goo.gl/maps/G9PmN) where a service road for service plaza employees has grown over the years to be an unofficial extrance/exit for the Parkway. The GSP has never acknowledged it as being official - there's no signage on the highway mentioning the exit - but yet through the years they have widened the service road and even installed a traffic light where it meets Rt. 561. The GSP is creating an official interchange for this area though. Unfortunately, the interchange will be positioned in such a way so that traffic can't get to/from the service plaza.
Quote from: briantroutman on January 16, 2014, 11:58:03 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on January 16, 2014, 10:58:17 PM
which even doubles as a parkway entrance (and backdoor exit to avoid a toll?)...
Oh–I see what you were getting at.
First of all, you're not avoiding a toll because the GSP uses a barrier toll system–where you pay every so many miles at a toll plaza that goes across the entire mainline of the road. That's different from a ticket system, like on the NJ or PA Turnpikes, where you take a ticket entering and pay when you leave. You're not avoiding anything–you'll pay the exact same amount entering at the Vauxhall Service Plaza as you would entering from NJ 82 (Morris Ave), the nearest "legitimate" entrance.
Odd, there appears to be no ramp toll entering from NJ 82. Don't all the entrances have ramp tolls?
There's no toll on the GSP between Perth Amboy and US 22/NJ 82.
Quote from: vdeane on January 17, 2014, 03:15:19 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on January 16, 2014, 11:58:03 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on January 16, 2014, 10:58:17 PM
which even doubles as a parkway entrance (and backdoor exit to avoid a toll?)...
OhI see what you were getting at.
First of all, you're not avoiding a toll because the GSP uses a barrier toll systemwhere you pay every so many miles at a toll plaza that goes across the entire mainline of the road. That's different from a ticket system, like on the NJ or PA Turnpikes, where you take a ticket entering and pay when you leave. You're not avoiding anythingyou'll pay the exact same amount entering at the Vauxhall Service Plaza as you would entering from NJ 82 (Morris Ave), the nearest "legitimate" entrance.
Odd, there appears to be no ramp toll entering from NJ 82. Don't all the entrances have ramp tolls?
No. In fact, most ramp entrances don't have tolls. Most exits don't have tolls either. It's seemingly random where tolls exist and don't exist along the Parkway. Some motorists can pay 2 or 3 tolls in the same distance others will pay none elsewhere along the road.
I know there's back-door access to Tamarack in West Virginia, because there's a "To WV 3" sign posted on the premises somewhere. However, it's not really necessary there since the West Virginia Turnpike uses a barrier system rather than a closed ticket system, and you can access Tamarack from I-64/I-77 without having to pay a toll.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 17, 2014, 03:32:56 PM
It's seemingly random where tolls exist and don't exist along the Parkway. Some motorists can pay 2 or 3 tolls in the same distance others will pay none elsewhere along the road.
Before they converted to one-way tolling, it was a pretty normal barrier system with ramp tolls facing away from the barriers until about halfway, where there was an interchange with no ramp tolls.
The Maine Welcome Center on I-95 NB in Kittery has full access to/from US-1. Fully signed and everything.
Quote from: briantroutman on January 16, 2014, 11:36:54 PM
To answer your second question first, no, you can't use them to enter or exit the toll road. These lots are gated off from the rest of the service area parking lot, and there's usually a marked pedestrian crosswalk going from the employee parking lot to the service plaza building. There are vehicular gates so that state police, delivery trucks, maintenance vehicles, etc. can access the main parking area, but these are locked under normal circumstances.
As to whether they're open to the public–that's what I was wondering. I've never seen a sign that says "Employees Only". I doubt they mind.
The Ohio Turnpike is the same way. I've eaten at the Erie Islands service plaza (mm 100) a few times by parking in the employee lot. I don't remember if there was any signage about it being employees only, and never had any issue. No idea what the Turnpike's official stance is on that.
http://www.floridasturnpike.com/safety_uturns.cfm
QuoteMotorists who make a legal U-Turn at a service plaza, then exit the Turnpike at the same place where they entered will be charged a special U-Turn rate.
The cheapest is from Lake Worth to the West Palm Service Plaza (10 cents each way).
Quote from: Buck87 on January 17, 2014, 04:57:22 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on January 16, 2014, 11:36:54 PM
To answer your second question first, no, you can't use them to enter or exit the toll road. These lots are gated off from the rest of the service area parking lot, and there's usually a marked pedestrian crosswalk going from the employee parking lot to the service plaza building. There are vehicular gates so that state police, delivery trucks, maintenance vehicles, etc. can access the main parking area, but these are locked under normal circumstances.
As to whether they're open to the public–that's what I was wondering. I've never seen a sign that says "Employees Only". I doubt they mind.
The Ohio Turnpike is the same way. I've eaten at the Erie Islands service plaza (mm 100) a few times by parking in the employee lot. I don't remember if there was any signage about it being employees only, and never had any issue. No idea what the Turnpike's official stance is on that.
One can also access the ISTHA Oases the same way. There's a sign stating "Authority Vehicles Only", but local residents can go to the restaurants in the oasis.
Quote from: briantroutman on January 16, 2014, 11:58:03 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on January 16, 2014, 10:58:17 PM
which even doubles as a parkway entrance (and backdoor exit to avoid a toll?)...
Oh–I see what you were getting at.
First of all, you're not avoiding a toll because the GSP uses a barrier toll system–where you pay every so many miles at a toll plaza that goes across the entire mainline of the road. That's different from a ticket system, like on the NJ or PA Turnpikes, where you take a ticket entering and pay when you leave. You're not avoiding anything–you'll pay the exact same amount entering at the Vauxhall Service Plaza as you would entering from NJ 82 (Morris Ave), the nearest "legitimate" entrance.
Actually, speaking as someone who has performed this maneuver, you avoid the SB toll of a $1.50.
Quote from: NE2 on January 17, 2014, 01:13:52 AM
I thought there were places where you could use the GSP accesses to avoid a toll, but a quick look turns up nothing. They can be used as "secret entrances" however, e.g. from Belmar Boulevard in Wall or Bordentown Avenue in South Amboy. The latter more or less counts, but it's really only a free section from Matawan Road, where there are no ramp tolls. (And per the Goog it's signed "official use and academy parking only", but maybe you can exit there.)
But the GSP toll structure is all fucked up post-one-way tolling.
Cheesequake is a SB toll-beater - exit 129, follow US 9 south, straight on NJ 35 (avoid the long backup exiting to 9), then take the next exit for Bordentown Ave. Turn right, turn left (no lights), back on the Parkway. Brookdale South is another possible toll-beater, but a) only if you live locally and b) only if you go through the Macca's drive through. When I was a kid, you could get out through the lot directly, but it's now been gated off. Vauxhall doesn't count as a toll-beater NB because you could get out for free at the prior exit.
Quote from: NE2 on January 17, 2014, 01:13:52 AM
I thought there were places where you could use the GSP accesses to avoid a toll, but a quick look turns up nothing. They can be used as "secret entrances" however, e.g. from Belmar Boulevard in Wall or Bordentown Avenue in South Amboy. The latter more or less counts, but it's really only a free section from Matawan Road, where there are no ramp tolls. (And per the Goog it's signed "official use and academy parking only", but maybe you can exit there.)
But the GSP toll structure is all fucked up post-one-way tolling.
I'm not sure if it is by design, but, each county along the GSP has one toll plaza.
Quote from: Buck87 on January 17, 2014, 04:57:22 PM
The Ohio Turnpike is the same way. I've eaten at the Erie Islands service plaza (mm 100) a few times by parking in the employee lot. I don't remember if there was any signage about it being employees only, and never had any issue. No idea what the Turnpike's official stance is on that.
I can't see why they'd turn down business. Diners are diners, whether they're traveling on the turnpike or are local residents, and their money is just as green.
Quote from: Steve on January 17, 2014, 07:27:50 PM
Vauxhall doesn't count as a toll-beater NB because you could get out for free at the prior exit.
But doesn't this also apply to Cheesequake? You can get off for free at Matawan Road, or stay on and get off at the service plaza. Sure, it's an additional several miles for no extra toll, but that just means there's another short GSP section with no tolls.
Quote from: Beeper1 on January 17, 2014, 04:34:28 PM
The Maine Welcome Center on I-95 NB in Kittery has full access to/from US-1. Fully signed and everything.
I may be mistaken, but I believe it's not a toll road there.
Quote from: NE2 on January 17, 2014, 08:43:44 PM
Quote from: Steve on January 17, 2014, 07:27:50 PM
Vauxhall doesn't count as a toll-beater NB because you could get out for free at the prior exit.
But doesn't this also apply to Cheesequake?
The GSP tolls are much more complicated than I ever would have imagined–like the toll road equivalent of the federal tax code. There's any number of combinations of entry and exit that avoid paying any toll–some farther than others. For example, you could enter at Matawan Rd. (Exit 120) and drive all the way to Holmdel (Exit 116) without encountering a single barrier or ramp toll. But if you exit at the earlier Aberdeen interchange (Exit 117A) you will pay a toll.
Looks like fertile ground for someone to develop a "Jersey Cheapskate" app that not only calculates your route but can adjust it to take advantage of all tolling loopholes.
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 17, 2014, 09:57:44 AM
The West Gardiner Service Plaza in Maine (http://goo.gl/maps/UBVDZ) is located off a local road. You exit the Maine Turnpike (or I-295) to reach it.
The thing I wondered about when I read about that plaza is their toll voucher system. It's located north of a Turnpike toll barrier. If you're using the Turnpike northbound, you go through the barrier, exit to the service plaza, then enter northbound I-295, go through another toll barrier, and re-enter the Turnpike. If you're using the Turnpike southbound, you do that in reverse. Either way, you have to go through two toll barriers. So they have a system to avoid that. E-ZPass users don't get charged at the second plaza as long as they pass through within a certain time. Cash users obtain a voucher at the toll plaza; the articles I saw said there were to be machines dispensing the vouchers (presumably to reduce the hassle for employees). See here for one of the articles: http://www.mrlakefront.net/newsprint.taf?news_id=773 The Maine Turnpike Authority website also mentioned vouchers.
What I wondered about was how they avoided abuses of this system. Since the service area is off a local road, couldn't anyone go to the machine, get a voucher, and drive free on the Turnpike? Apparently the Maine Turnpike Authority must have had the same question, because it seems they've changed the system: According to the Turnpike Authority's website, a cash-payer who wishes to use the service plaza now must request two copies of a receipt when paying the toll and must then hand the yellow copy of the receipt to the toll-taker at the other plaza. The voucher system is gone. I think this is new within the past two years because when we discussed this in another thread in 2011, the Turnpike Authority's site still mentioned the vouchers.
(All this begs the question of why most people would be making that movement anyway, as it is more direct and generally faster to take I-295 instead of the Turnpike. People using I-295 can access the service plaza but face no issue as to double tolling. Obviously some of us might use the longer Turnpike route for clinch reasons or the like, but the general public has never heard of nor cares about the concept of clinching a highway!)
You can see old grading there and the toll is under an old removed ramp.
Quote from: NE2 on January 17, 2014, 08:43:44 PM
Quote from: Steve on January 17, 2014, 07:27:50 PM
Vauxhall doesn't count as a toll-beater NB because you could get out for free at the prior exit.
But doesn't this also apply to Cheesequake? You can get off for free at Matawan Road, or stay on and get off at the service plaza. Sure, it's an additional several miles for no extra toll, but that just means there's another short GSP section with no tolls.
NB, it applies. SB, it's the first entrance for several miles and by far the easiest access from 9.
Quote from: jas on January 17, 2014, 07:30:25 PM
Quote from: NE2 on January 17, 2014, 01:13:52 AM
I thought there were places where you could use the GSP accesses to avoid a toll, but a quick look turns up nothing. They can be used as "secret entrances" however, e.g. from Belmar Boulevard in Wall or Bordentown Avenue in South Amboy. The latter more or less counts, but it's really only a free section from Matawan Road, where there are no ramp tolls. (And per the Goog it's signed "official use and academy parking only", but maybe you can exit there.)
But the GSP toll structure is all fucked up post-one-way tolling.
I'm not sure if it is by design, but, each county along the GSP has one toll plaza.
Doesn't Bergen have two? Doesn't Passaic have zero?
Quote from: Steve on January 17, 2014, 10:40:04 PM
Quote from: NE2 on January 17, 2014, 08:43:44 PM
Quote from: Steve on January 17, 2014, 07:27:50 PM
Vauxhall doesn't count as a toll-beater NB because you could get out for free at the prior exit.
But doesn't this also apply to Cheesequake? You can get off for free at Matawan Road, or stay on and get off at the service plaza. Sure, it's an additional several miles for no extra toll, but that just means there's another short GSP section with no tolls.
NB, it applies. SB, it's the first entrance for several miles and by far the easiest access from 9.
Cheesequake southbound is just the inverse of northbound at Vauxhall: you get on from the plaza for free, but you could get on at the next entrance instead. Yes, it does allow you to use a piece of the GSP for free that you otherwise wouldn't be able to, but that's also true at Vauxhall; it's just much less useful in the latter case. (It might be the best way to go from 82 west to Oakland Avenue, since it avoids crossing from left to right on US 22 east.)
All of the Thruway's service areas have surface road access. Examples:
Angola: http://goo.gl/maps/eADaH
Clarence: http://goo.gl/maps/kjPHu
Pembroke: http://goo.gl/maps/F25tX
Ontario: http://goo.gl/maps/irOLv
Scottsville: http://goo.gl/maps/IiJeQ
It seems to me the better question would be: What service areas are completely inaccessible from local roads?
Many of the plaza-in-median facilities would likely qualify. Delaware's lone plaza is one of these, but since it's almost immediately adjacent to an interchange with toll-free access, it's still very easy to get to. Maryland's plazas are similar, but the Chesapeake House plaza is between two exits that are about 6.5 miles apart–though still accessible toll-free. I would imagine some of the Florida and Oklahoma median plazas would be similar. All of the median plazas I can think of, though, allow U-turns–with some of them being non-ticket systems.
Somewhat related: I seem to recall reading about a former Howard Johnson's that was awkwardly wedged into a median or in the gore area (or something like that) of a Boston area freeway. Sound familiar to anyone?
Yes. It was on the southbound side of I-93/MA-3 in Quincy, just before the Braintree split. It wasn't in the median, but was tightly spaced between the adjacent properties along the highway in that densely populated area. I have heard that the only reason it was built on such an urban, non-tolled freeway, was that Quincy was where HoJo's first started. I don't know if this area just had a restaurant or if it also had fuel. Historic Areals doesn't seem to show a gas station, just one building for the restaurant. I think it closed when the expressway was rebuilt in the early 80s. The place was completely demolished and the land sold off to private development not connected to the highway, with no evidence of it left on the ground.
Both of the service areas on the I-95 part of 128 used to be Howard Johnsons, and they are both wedged into larger interchanges. The Lexington area is within the N-E quadrant of the MA-2A cloverleaf, and the Newton plaza is within the connecting ramps between the Grove Street and MA-16 interchanges.
Quote from: Buck87 on January 17, 2014, 04:57:22 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on January 16, 2014, 11:36:54 PM
To answer your second question first, no, you can't use them to enter or exit the toll road. These lots are gated off from the rest of the service area parking lot, and there's usually a marked pedestrian crosswalk going from the employee parking lot to the service plaza building. There are vehicular gates so that state police, delivery trucks, maintenance vehicles, etc. can access the main parking area, but these are locked under normal circumstances.
As to whether they're open to the public–that's what I was wondering. I've never seen a sign that says "Employees Only". I doubt they mind.
The Ohio Turnpike is the same way. I've eaten at the Erie Islands service plaza (mm 100) a few times by parking in the employee lot. I don't remember if there was any signage about it being employees only, and never had any issue. No idea what the Turnpike's official stance is on that.
I'm amazed that anyone would
choose to eat in a service area. I've never caught myself saying, "These cold, overpriced burger and fries are so good, I'm going to find a way to eat here again. I don't care if I'm driving on the turnpike or not, I've got to get me more of this!"
My experience has been that turnpike food is about convenience, not fine dining. So, now let's hear from everyone who thinks turnpike food is worth going out of the way to get.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 17, 2014, 09:54:16 AM
not a toll road, but you can access I-80 from US-6 via the Melia Hill rest area in Nebraska.
http://goo.gl/maps/siyLW
Nope. I've been to that one. The access road from the ramp goes back only to the fence. It does not connect to the road leading to 234th street.
There's a handwritten sign in the display case along with the state map which says, "One day in Nebraska, the wind stopped blowing, and all the people fell down."
:clap:
Quote from: theline on January 18, 2014, 02:00:42 AM
I'm amazed that anyone would choose to eat in a service area....So, now let's hear from everyone who thinks turnpike food is worth going out of the way to get.
As far as a culinary experience, no, I don't think anyone would specially seek out a service plaza. The menu selection, food quality, and prices are usually less than stellar. But I couldn't say that my experiences at service plazas have been universally bad. Most have been reasonably good. And I've certainly had worse at freestanding locations off the turnpikes.
Sometimes plazas will offer something that isn't available locally. When I lived in the Lehigh Valley, the Allentown Service Plaza had the only Roy Rogers or Big Boy in 100+ miles.
But the bigger attraction–I think for roadgeeks, anyway–is the opportunity to have a small taste of being out on the road, even in your own town. It's kind of like how people used to visit their local airport's full service restaurant and casually watch planes take off and land while they ate. At a service plaza, you can watch the interstate traffic go by.
Getting back to the G.S. Parkway, I made this diagram (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3812.msg83663#msg83663) a couple of years ago detailing where you can get on/off without paying a toll. I'm assuming the service area movements are all still intact though Steve said that it's been gated off so the free southbound exit may not be possible.
Quote from: theline on January 18, 2014, 02:00:42 AM
I'm amazed that anyone would choose to eat in a service area. I've never caught myself saying, "These cold, overpriced burger and fries are so good, I'm going to find a way to eat here again. I don't care if I'm driving on the turnpike or not, I've got to get me more of this!"
My experience has been that turnpike food is about convenience, not fine dining. So, now let's hear from everyone who thinks turnpike food is worth going out of the way to get.
In my case it was more of a "You mean to say that the giant overpriced slices of pizza that are otherwise only available at mall food courts 50+ miles away can actually be enjoyed after just a 10 mile drive from my house?" :)
plus a little bit of this factor...
Quote from: briantroutman on January 18, 2014, 02:59:29 AM
But the bigger attraction–I think for roadgeeks, anyway–is the opportunity to have a small taste of being out on the road, even in your own town.
I haven't actually gone there in several years, but now all this talk about it has me wanting to do it again. My dad worked for the phone company and would occasionally eat at the service plazas if it was the closest food option to where he was working that day, so that's how I found out about the idea of going to them. He found out about their local accessibility when working on the phone lines there.
Rare are the occasions when I've eaten at a turnpike service area when I've stopped. Usually the stop is for a restroom break, and I have gotten gas at a few of them if I needed to. In my experience, the lines are usually pretty long and I don't have the patience to wait.
I do remember at least one McDonald's at a service plaza in Oklahoma that had a drive-through with no line, so I got food there.
Are there any service areas that have hotels? Seems like that is a business opportunity that is ripe for the capturing.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 17, 2014, 07:34:45 PM
Quote from: Buck87 on January 17, 2014, 04:57:22 PM
The Ohio Turnpike is the same way. I've eaten at the Erie Islands service plaza (mm 100) a few times by parking in the employee lot. I don't remember if there was any signage about it being employees only, and never had any issue. No idea what the Turnpike's official stance is on that.
I can't see why they'd turn down business. Diners are diners, whether they're traveling on the turnpike or are local residents, and their money is just as green.
The only reason I could think of that they might discourage it is in situations where the local/non-turnpike lot is small enough that they don't want to risk running out of parking for employees.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 18, 2014, 11:08:27 AM
Are there any service areas that have hotels? Seems like that is a business opportunity that is ripe for the capturing.
Lodging facilities are common at Autobahnraststätte in Germany, but I haven't seen that the same is true in most other European nations.
You would think that overnight accommodations would be a natural success at service plazas–both in remote areas where the next exit may be many miles, as well on the outskirts of urban areas where a traveler might want to make a quick stopover without losing time on local roads. But I can't think of anywhere in the US where lodging has been available at toll road service areas (with a couple of exceptions.
Probably the closest equivalent would be motels at private travel plazas like TA and Petro. But even those–many of which were branded as Daystops or Rodeway Inns–haven't been successful and are disappearing. Despite what would seem to be convenience, travelers must have some resistance to the concept of stopping, eating, refueling, and staying under one roof.
The two exceptions:
The South Midway Service Plaza along the PA Turnpike originally had a dormitory on its second floor. All I accounts I have read indicate that the dormitory was "for truckers", but I don't know if that was just the intention or an enforced regulation. I don't have any information on when the upper floor was closed, but it appears to have been within the first couple of decades.
I read once about a Howard Johnson's somewhere–for some reason, I think it was an Illinois toll road–where a HJ Motor Lodge was located outside the service area fence but adjacent to it (and with pedestrian access). So you could stop off for dinner, ask the restaurant cashier about a room, and then walk to your accommodations while your car remained parked.
I don't think you'd see lodging at NY service areas. For one thing, there's a four hour maximum you can stay.
There was a service plaza on I-30 in TX with a Howard Johnson's Restaurant and Hotel. It was also accessible from the local roads.
http://www.highwayhost.org/Texas/Arlington/arlington1.html (http://www.highwayhost.org/Texas/Arlington/arlington1.html)
It looks like the location is no longer a service plaza (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=E+Copeland+Rd,+Arlington,+TX&hl=en&ll=32.759499,-97.076172&spn=0.004583,0.006899&sll=32.751532,-97.274913&sspn=0.004584,0.006899&oq=E+copeland+rd,+arlington,+tx&t=h&hnear=1600+E+Copeland+Rd,+Arlington,+Texas+76011&z=17), and is now only accessible from the local roads. It was still a HoJo's at the time of the street view pic. The WB service plaza looks to be re-purposed as construction storage.
Quote from: Marc_in_CT on January 18, 2014, 05:43:38 PM
There was a service plaza on I-30 in TX with a Howard Johnson's Restaurant and Hotel.
I'm pretty sure that's the one I was trying to remember. Odd that the only service area to offer this kind of "long-haul" feature would be on a 30-mile toll road that stays within the same metro. I don't really know much about the DFW Turnpike–was it even a closed-ticket system?
Not at a service plaza, but the only on-turnpike Hotel I know of is in Maine. There is a Ramada Hotel in Saco that has direct access ramps to/from the NB lanes of the turnpike. It used to have ramps for the SB lanes as well, but the overpass was removed when the highway was widened in the 90s.
The ramps were part of the original Saco interchange. After I-195 opened a few miles away, this interchange closed and the hotel was built on the site of the old toll plaza. Uniquely, they got permission to reopen the old ramps as access for the hotel for travelers. There are separate parking lots for traffic from the turnpike and traffic from the local roads so that the hotel can't be used as a secret entrance to the highway.
It's a fairly nice hotel, and the only one I can think of in the US directly on an interstate.
Quote from: briantroutman on January 18, 2014, 12:33:15 AM
It seems to me the better question would be: What service areas are completely inaccessible from local roads?
Clearly not everywhere. I've never seen that situation firsthand. I'm quite sure that none of the NJ Turnpike ones have them. Neither does the Atlantic City Expressway nor the Delaware Turnpike. I don't recall ever using any GS Parkway Service Areas. I've only ever frequented the portions of that road between exit 4 and 10, between 36 and 38, and between 129 and 135, all free (at least along the Parkway itself) and only one set of service areas (approaching exit 135 from the south), and those have no outside access. I *have* been on most of the Parkway at one time or another, excluding portions between exits 38 and 98, and north of 159, but never used any of the facilities.
Kentucky had three service areas, all in the medians of toll roads. There were two on the Kentucky Turnpike. I was only familiar with the one at Shepherdsville, since my dad's siblings all lived there. There was no local access and there would have been a toll charge for anyone going there since there was a toll at the KY 44 exit (a quarter to enter or exit). I don't remember anything about the service area near Elizabethtown. They no longer exist.
The service area on the WK Parkway still exists. I stop there just about every time I travel the road for a restroom break. There is no local access, but access to it was free because it's just east of the US 231 exit.
The one reason to go out of your way to a rest area: If you're a Roy Rogers fan in NJ.
Quote from: Steve on January 17, 2014, 10:40:04 PM
Quote from: NE2 on January 17, 2014, 08:43:44 PM
Quote from: Steve on January 17, 2014, 07:27:50 PM
Vauxhall doesn't count as a toll-beater NB because you could get out for free at the prior exit.
But doesn't this also apply to Cheesequake? You can get off for free at Matawan Road, or stay on and get off at the service plaza. Sure, it's an additional several miles for no extra toll, but that just means there's another short GSP section with no tolls.
NB, it applies. SB, it's the first entrance for several miles and by far the easiest access from 9.
Quote from: jas on January 17, 2014, 07:30:25 PM
Quote from: NE2 on January 17, 2014, 01:13:52 AM
I thought there were places where you could use the GSP accesses to avoid a toll, but a quick look turns up nothing. They can be used as "secret entrances" however, e.g. from Belmar Boulevard in Wall or Bordentown Avenue in South Amboy. The latter more or less counts, but it's really only a free section from Matawan Road, where there are no ramp tolls. (And per the Goog it's signed "official use and academy parking only", but maybe you can exit there.)
But the GSP toll structure is all fucked up post-one-way tolling.
I'm not sure if it is by design, but, each county along the GSP has one toll plaza.
Doesn't Bergen have two? Doesn't Passaic have zero?
My bad. I thought the toll at I-80 was in Passaic County. Also, (and I should have known this), Ocean County has two...Toms River and Barnegat.
Quote from: jas on January 19, 2014, 08:45:49 AM
Quote from: Steve on January 17, 2014, 10:40:04 PM]
Quote from: jas on January 17, 2014, 07:30:25 PM
I'm not sure if it is by design, but, each county along the GSP has one toll plaza.
Doesn't Bergen have two? Doesn't Passaic have zero?
My bad. I thought the toll at I-80 was in Passaic County. Also, (and I should have known this), Ocean County has two...Toms River and Barnegat.
More fun facts: Union has two toll plazas total, one mainline and one ramp (78 to GSP NB). Burlington has but one.
Quote from: Steve on January 18, 2014, 09:11:32 PM
The one reason to go out of your way to a rest area: If you're a Roy Rogers fan in NJ.
There are so few Roy Rogers around (and they're just on highways), that I always wonder if what you are getting Roy Rogers food, or some other food branded as Roy Rogers.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 19, 2014, 01:27:42 PM
Quote from: Steve on January 18, 2014, 09:11:32 PM
The one reason to go out of your way to a rest area: If you're a Roy Rogers fan in NJ.
There are so few Roy Rogers around (and they're just on highways), that I always wonder if what you are getting Roy Rogers food, or some other food branded as Roy Rogers.
No, it's Roy Rogers. There are still a few standalone locations in MD.
Quote from: Steve on January 19, 2014, 01:49:53 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 19, 2014, 01:27:42 PM
Quote from: Steve on January 18, 2014, 09:11:32 PM
The one reason to go out of your way to a rest area: If you're a Roy Rogers fan in NJ.
There are so few Roy Rogers around (and they're just on highways), that I always wonder if what you are getting Roy Rogers food, or some other food branded as Roy Rogers.
No, it's Roy Rogers. There are still a few standalone locations in MD.
Roy Rogers was started by Marriott in 1968 and its prevalence in turnpike service plazas is owed to Marriott having purchased the remains of Howard Johnson's in 1985–including many concession contracts. The turnpike operations got spun off into Host Marriott Services and eventually today's HMS Host, which is no longer connected with Marriott.
Marriott decided to leave the restaurant business and sold Roy Rogers (with over 600 locations at that point) to the parent of Hardee's in 1990, and that put the Roy Rogers brand in a virtual nosedive. After failed attempts to convert Roy locations to Hardee's, the new owners basically gave the brand minimal life support while hemorrhaging franchisees and selling of clusters of company owned locations to competitors. Finally down to about 60 locations in 2003, the former Marriott VP who launched Roy Rogers in 1968 bought the trademark from Hardee's parent in a comeback attempt. A decade later, they're down to about 40 locations, half of which (almost all non-MD stores) are in service plazas.
That said, there are differences between the company-owned standalone locations in Maryland and the HMS Host locations on turnpikes–probably more so than most fast food franchises. I think some supplies might be purchased in bulk from a HMS Host supplier rather than an exclusive Roy Rogers vendor. The Highspire Service Plaza near Harrisburg used to have a tiny Boardwalk Fries counter, and their standard hamburgers were exactly like those served by Roy Rogers at the nearby Blue Mountain and Plainfield plazas–just without Roy's Fixin's Bar.
Quote from: Steve on January 19, 2014, 01:49:53 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 19, 2014, 01:27:42 PM
Quote from: Steve on January 18, 2014, 09:11:32 PM
The one reason to go out of your way to a rest area: If you're a Roy Rogers fan in NJ.
There are so few Roy Rogers around (and they're just on highways), that I always wonder if what you are getting Roy Rogers food, or some other food branded as Roy Rogers.
No, it's Roy Rogers. There are still a few standalone locations in MD.
Virginia as well. There's one about five minutes from my house and another reasonably close by; I also know of one in Front Royal and two in Leesburg, as well as the ones in Maryland (several in the Frederick area, at least one in Gaithersburg, I think another in Germantown, and I know there are others but unless I look at their website I won't remember where).
Quote from: briantroutman on January 19, 2014, 02:43:03 PM
probably more so than most fast food franchises.
I'm thinking of the contrast between Pizza Hut and McDonalds now. Pizza Hut's service plaza/food court locations are true fast food while their standalone locations are sit-down restaraunts. The only differences between a standalone McDonalds and a service plaza one is the lack of McFlurrys (due to their ownership of the adjacent Edy's service plaza locations) and play areas.
Being from the Midwest, I haven't been to a Roy Rogers in over 30 years. Does the cashier still say "Happy Trails" after you pay? If so, it would be worthwhile finding one the next time I go east.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.tinypic.com%2F2aiejir.jpg&hash=840d9d72a567613ae4002826c2505e6a16c62e52)
Photo stolen from somebody on the internet, who stole it from somebody else.
Quote from: vdeane on January 19, 2014, 04:33:00 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on January 19, 2014, 02:43:03 PM
probably more so than most fast food franchises.
I'm thinking of the contrast between Pizza Hut and McDonalds now. Pizza Hut's service plaza/food court locations are true fast food while their standalone locations are sit-down restaraunts. The only differences between a standalone McDonalds and a service plaza one is the lack of McFlurrys (due to their ownership of the adjacent Edy's service plaza locations) and play areas.
That must be an East Coast difference. The ISTHA Oasis McDonald's do have the full menu, including McFlurries. IIRC, the O'Hare Oasis and Lincoln Oasis even have PlayPlaces.
It might be a Thruway difference. Or an "Edy's is right next to McDonalds" difference. The one I have the most experience with is the Warners travel plaza.
Quote from: theline on January 19, 2014, 05:44:53 PM
Does the cashier still say "Happy Trails" after you pay?
Unfortunately, no. But if you order large fries, they come in a "holster (http://bit.ly/1bxcjuw)" (complete with fake leather tone, rivets, and stitching) that has slits so you can actually attach it to your belt.
Quote from: Brandon on January 19, 2014, 05:48:38 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 19, 2014, 04:33:00 PM
The only differences between a standalone McDonalds and a service plaza one is the lack of McFlurrys...
That must be an East Coast difference.
I don't think it's necessarily a regional thing or a standalone vs. service plaza thing. I'm pretty sure I've seen McFlurrys at several eastern service plazas. More likely, I'd imagine it comes down to a peculiarity with a specific franchisee (cutting what for them is an unprofitable item), maybe the inability to accommodate the equipment needed for certain items due to space limitations, or something else. The franchise agreement mandates certain absolute menu requirements (you'd never
ever see a McDonald's that didn't have Big Macs), but there is probably a little room for flexibility due to special circumstances.
Quote from: vdeane on January 19, 2014, 04:33:00 PM
Pizza Hut's service plaza/food court locations are true fast food while their standalone locations are sit-down restaraunts.
I'd say Pizza Hut is even more complicated than that. They also have co-branded KFC or Taco Bell stores, completely unstaffed hot racks in truck stops, delivery/pick-up only locations–all with differing menus and promotions.
Quote from: briantroutman on January 20, 2014, 02:50:25 AM
.... The franchise agreement mandates certain absolute menu requirements (you'd never ever see a McDonald's that didn't have Big Macs), but there is probably a little room for flexibility due to special circumstances.
....
McDonald's locations in India don't sell Big Macs nor any other beef products due to the local taboo regarding beef consumption. Of course, I'd consider that a "special circumstance."
Quote from: Beeper1 on January 18, 2014, 01:02:20 AMThe Lexington area is within the N-E quadrant of the MA-2A cloverleaf
I believe you meant to say
S-E quadrant of the MA 2A cloverleaf. (http://goo.gl/maps/F71eg)
I believe the service plaza along MA 128 North in Beverly, just after Exit 19 (Sohier Rd./Brimball Ave.), was also a HoJos at one time.
Oh yeah. That's what I meant. :) All of the service plazas on Mass highways were originally Howard Johnson's, both the turnpike and on the non-toll roads.
Quote from: Beeper1 on January 18, 2014, 01:02:20 AM
The Lexington area is within the N-E quadrant of the MA-2A cloverleaf...
Anyone know what that closed-off small loop near the entrance ramp was? The Google satellite images going back to the mid '90s appear to show it being closed and vacant, and historic aerials up to 1969 show that it wasn't even there at the time. Images from 1977 and 1981 do show it, though, but it's hard to make out what it was. So whatever it was maybe had a shelf life roughly spanning the 1970s and '80s?
From the look of it on the ground (I stop there often), it looks like it may have been originally a small drive through stand for coffee of something, like the small Dunkin Donut drive-through buildings at the Mass Pike service areas. But it looks as if it was never finished or open.
Quote from: Steve on January 19, 2014, 01:49:53 PM
No, it's Roy Rogers. There are still a few standalone locations in MD.
Virginia too.
With more coming in both states.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 22, 2014, 04:04:06 PM
Quote from: Steve on January 19, 2014, 01:49:53 PM
No, it's Roy Rogers. There are still a few standalone locations in MD.
Virginia too.
With more coming in both states.
Do wish they'd add stores further west. We had two of them in the early 1980s. One was at Marriott's (now Six Flags) Great America. The other was on the middle level of Woodfield Mall.
Quote from: Brandon on January 22, 2014, 05:19:07 PM
Do wish they'd add stores further west. We had two of them in the early 1980s. One was at Marriott's (now Six Flags) Great America. The other was on the middle level of Woodfield Mall.
Roy Rogers is concentrated (at least for now) in the East, especially Maryland and Virginia. You can see where on their Web site here (http://www.royrogersrestaurants.com/).
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 22, 2014, 08:21:57 PMRoy Rogers is concentrated (at least for now) in the East, especially Maryland and Virginia. You can see where on their Web site here (http://www.royrogersrestaurants.com/).
When did the one in Sturbridge, MA (Exit 1 off I-84) go away? It's not listed on the website. It was open last year; I ate there last summer.
Roy Rogers/Sabarro's at 241 Haynes St. Sturbridge, MA (http://goo.gl/maps/ndAai)
Update regarding the above: I was in Sturbridge this past weekend and the above-Roy Rogers/Sabarro's is now boarded up. According to my brother, who lives in the area, it closed this past October.
A billboard located along I-84 eastbound at the CT-MA line (http://goo.gl/maps/GgUJF) now has a big
FOR LEASE banner stretched across in a diagonal manner.
Note to MassDOT: the supplemental BBS listing restaurants off Exit 1 needs to have the Roy Rogers and Sabarro's shields removed. Both were still present as of Feb. 1, 2014 (http://goo.gl/maps/kp0OK) :pan:
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 22, 2014, 04:04:06 PM
With more coming in both states.
Quote from: Brandon on January 22, 2014, 05:19:07 PM
Do wish they'd add stores further west.
I doubt it.
Since the Plamondon Companies bought the trademark and franchising system a decade ago and launched the "Roy Rogers Rides Again" turnaround campaign, the number of locations has dwindled by a third (60 to 40).
Roy Rogers faces a number of problems which I suspect are insurmountable. First and foremost is that the traditional fast food burger market is mature and over saturated. Dominant competitors like McDonald's and Burger King are retrenching, pruning underperforming locations, and increasingly focusing on cost-cutting to remain profitable. Roy's will never be able to win that game any more than Ames could have beaten Wal-Mart.
And among burger chains, which
are growing? For the most part, they're specialty players like Five Guys and Smashburger who sell burgers at prices often approaching double that of the major national players. Their selling proposition rests on serving never-frozen beef, high-quality produce, and fresh-cut potatoes. If Roy's does have a chance, it's as a high-quality and unique niche player. But as of now, they're not there. From the nondescript box-like buildings to the hard plastic seats in the dining room, everything about the experience is "Generic Middle-American Fast Food, c. 1980" .
Another thing troubling Roy Rogers, I think, is the same thing that made the Howard Johnson's brand toxic by the 1980s: their presence in service plazas–stereotypically high priced, mediocre quality, served by indifferent employees. If people outside of Maryland know Roy Rogers at all, its because they were forced to drive through Nowheresville, Pennsyltucky on the Turnpike and Roy Rogers was their
only option. Not the kind of brand awareness that would make most people want to visit, if a Roy Rogers opened in their neighborhood.
For years, the McDonalds Corporation (not a franchisee, and not HMS Host) held the food concession contract at the Hickory Run Service Plaza on the NE Extension, and they actually bought a billboard facing northbound right at the Allentown Service Plaza–so you'd see the Roy Rogers sign then immediately afterward, a billboard with a huge photo of a Big Mac and the message "Better Things Ahead - Only 15 Minutes Past the Tunnel!" How's
that for an endorsement! Perhaps the only time that I've ever seen one service plaza advertising against another one.
Don't get me wrong, I personally like Roy Rogers, but I don't see that they're poised for any significant growth. Perhaps you'll see some more locations in their home territory, and the toll road contracts will likely carry over, but...
Quote from: PHLBOS on January 23, 2014, 09:40:59 AM
When did the one in Sturbridge, MA (Exit 1 off I-84) go away?
expect other off-turnpike outliers to drop off.
This site (http://bit.ly/KMb1Rz) has (had) several solid reviews of highway-bound fast food chains, including one on Roy Rogers here (http://bit.ly/LMsaeF).
Roy Rogers is more than just burgers though - they are also fried chicken and roast beef.
And maybe that is some of the problem as well...When someone says Roast Beef, Arby's probably comes to mind. When someone says Fried Chicken, KFC & Popeyes are the front runners there. Burgers - dozens of restaurants carry them. Roy Rogers does all 3.
Roy Rogers may have tried to overreach their brand by doing everything, to the point where they are most well known for their fixings station and not much else. I'm not sure lettuce, tomato, ketchup and mustard is a very huge selling point for people undecided what they want to eat.
Quote from: Beeper1 on January 18, 2014, 01:02:20 AM
Yes. It was on the southbound side of I-93/MA-3 in Quincy, just before the Braintree split. It wasn't in the median, but was tightly spaced between the adjacent properties along the highway in that densely populated area. I have heard that the only reason it was built on such an urban, non-tolled freeway, was that Quincy was where HoJo's first started. I don't know if this area just had a restaurant or if it also had fuel. Historic Areals doesn't seem to show a gas station, just one building for the restaurant. I think it closed when the expressway was rebuilt in the early 80s. The place was completely demolished and the land sold off to private development not connected to the highway, with no evidence of it left on the ground.
Both of the service areas on the I-95 part of 128 used to be Howard Johnsons, and they are both wedged into larger interchanges. The Lexington area is within the N-E quadrant of the MA-2A cloverleaf, and the Newton plaza is within the connecting ramps between the Grove Street and MA-16 interchanges.
The Howard Johnsons at the Braintree Split was closed during the 1984-1985 Southeast Expressway reconstruction project. Removal of the service plaza, which required a very hazardous weave across five lanes to get from the restaurant to MA 3 south, was a condition of MassDPW getting Federal funding to rebuild the highway.
And, my recollection is that the plaza did have a gas station in addition to the restaurant.
Quote from: briantroutman on January 23, 2014, 02:43:45 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 22, 2014, 04:04:06 PM
With more coming in both states.
Quote from: Brandon on January 22, 2014, 05:19:07 PM
Do wish they'd add stores further west.
I doubt it.
Since the Plamondon Companies bought the trademark and franchising system a decade ago and launched the "Roy Rogers Rides Again" turnaround campaign, the number of locations has dwindled by a third (60 to 40).
Roy Rogers faces a number of problems which I suspect are insurmountable. First and foremost is that the traditional fast food burger market is mature and over saturated. Dominant competitors like McDonald's and Burger King are retrenching, pruning underperforming locations, and increasingly focusing on cost-cutting to remain profitable. Roy's will never be able to win that game any more than Ames could have beaten Wal-Mart.
I can only provide three data points to counter that, in Maryland and Virginia.
Roy Rogers has sold new franchises at three locations relatively close to Washington - one in Burtonsville, Montgomery County, on Md. 198 (west of U.S. 29 and I-95); one in LaPlata, Charles County, Md. on U.S. 301; and one on U.S. 340/U.S. 522 north of I-66 in Front Royal, Warren County, Va.
All three appear to be drawing
plenty of customers - there was a Checkers next to the one in Front Royal that closed shortly after Roy Rogers opened.
It helps that brand loyalty to Roy Rogers has remained extremely strong in both states (similar to In-N-Out in California), and it may not be possible to replicate that in other parts of the United States (though I believe that In-N-Out would do well if they decided to expand beyond their current "footprints" in the West and in Texas).
As I recall, there was only one McDonald's location in the history of the company that closed - without relocating to an adjacent site - soley due to poor sales. That was in Central Square, Lynn, in the late 1970s. The restaurant was opened as one of the cornerstone fixtures of the failed Union Street walkway project.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 23, 2014, 03:07:26 PM
Roy Rogers is more than just burgers though - they are also fried chicken and roast beef.
And maybe that is some of the problem as well...When someone says Roast Beef, Arby's probably comes to mind. When someone says Fried Chicken, KFC & Popeyes are the front runners there. Burgers - dozens of restaurants carry them. Roy Rogers does all 3.
Roy Rogers may have tried to overreach their brand by doing everything, to the point where they are most well known for their fixings station and not much else. I'm not sure lettuce, tomato, ketchup and mustard is a very huge selling point for people undecided what they want to eat.
Exactly. I never think of Roy's and hamburgers. To me, they're a roast beef place first and foremost, better than Arby's. In fact, with the western connotations of the name "Roy Rogers", they might be better off dumping the burgers from the menu for any sort of expansion and going whole bovine into roast beef and related sandwiches and maybe having the fried chicken on the side.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 23, 2014, 03:46:55 PM
I can only provide three data points to counter that, in Maryland and Virginia.
Certainly, it's a different story in the Maryland/Northern Virginia region–because that's been their home territory for decades (as a result of Marriott being headquartered in D.C.) and today, that's where most of their better-run standalone stores are located.
But even on their home turf, they haven't really been growing. In 2003, they had 23 locations in Maryland; today there are 19. In that same time, Virginia is up slightly from 6 to 8. They have opened a few new stores (like you mentioned) but closed several more.
They do have impressive brand loyalty–one of the reasons why the attempted forced conversion of many locations to Hardee's was met with almost insurgency-level resistance from Roy's customers. And caused Hardee's retreat. I think, though, that Roy's will need something compelling and different to attract new customers to the brand. And as I said before, I like Roy Rogers, and I wish them all the success in the world.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 23, 2014, 03:46:55 PM
(though I believe that In-N-Out would do well if they decided to expand beyond their current "footprints" in the West and in Texas).
There is a certain practical limit to In-N-Out's growth, though, because it is essentially a family-owned and run business that doesn't believe in either debt or franchising. If they did expand nationally, I suspect it would cause some dilution of who and what they are.
Quote from: roadman on January 23, 2014, 03:55:20 PM
As I recall, there was only one McDonald's location in the history of the company that closed - without relocating to an adjacent site - soley due to poor sales. That was in Central Square, Lynn, in the late 1970s. The restaurant was opened as one of the cornerstone fixtures of the failed Union Street walkway project.
The Beverly one along MA 1A south of MA 22/127 junction closed when the new Essex Bridge to Salem opened. I don't believe it was replaced with a relocated one.
Abandoned McDonald's at Beverly-Salem Border (http://goo.gl/maps/3f1rw)
Quote from: Brandon on January 23, 2014, 04:27:17 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 23, 2014, 03:07:26 PM
Roy Rogers is more than just burgers though - they are also fried chicken and roast beef.
And maybe that is some of the problem as well...When someone says Roast Beef, Arby's probably comes to mind. When someone says Fried Chicken, KFC & Popeyes are the front runners there. Burgers - dozens of restaurants carry them. Roy Rogers does all 3.
Roy Rogers may have tried to overreach their brand by doing everything, to the point where they are most well known for their fixings station and not much else. I'm not sure lettuce, tomato, ketchup and mustard is a very huge selling point for people undecided what they want to eat.
Exactly. I never think of Roy's and hamburgers. To me, they're a roast beef place first and foremost, better than Arby's. In fact, with the western connotations of the name "Roy Rogers", they might be better off dumping the burgers from the menu for any sort of expansion and going whole bovine into roast beef and related sandwiches and maybe having the fried chicken on the side.
Anyone remember Rax Roast beef
Quote from: Indyroads on January 23, 2014, 05:48:45 PM
Anyone remember Rax Roast beef
Had one in my hometown growing up, but it closed 20 years ago. At that time, I don't think "Roast Beef" was part of the name (the sign said just "Rax" ), and the menu seemed like an odd assortment that included roast beef, hot ham and cheese, and chicken sandwiches as well as a salad bar and even a few burgers, I believe. I do recall the dining area being somewhat ornate for a fast food joint with carpeting, raised and lowered seating sections, brass-like railings, hanging plants, and wood wainscoting on the walls.
Quote from: Indyroads on January 23, 2014, 05:48:45 PM
Quote from: Brandon on January 23, 2014, 04:27:17 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 23, 2014, 03:07:26 PM
Roy Rogers is more than just burgers though - they are also fried chicken and roast beef.
And maybe that is some of the problem as well...When someone says Roast Beef, Arby's probably comes to mind. When someone says Fried Chicken, KFC & Popeyes are the front runners there. Burgers - dozens of restaurants carry them. Roy Rogers does all 3.
Roy Rogers may have tried to overreach their brand by doing everything, to the point where they are most well known for their fixings station and not much else. I'm not sure lettuce, tomato, ketchup and mustard is a very huge selling point for people undecided what they want to eat.
Exactly. I never think of Roy's and hamburgers. To me, they're a roast beef place first and foremost, better than Arby's. In fact, with the western connotations of the name "Roy Rogers", they might be better off dumping the burgers from the menu for any sort of expansion and going whole bovine into roast beef and related sandwiches and maybe having the fried chicken on the side.
Anyone remember Rax Roast beef
Remember? Shoot, there's still one here in town (Joliet, IL).
Quote from: roadman on January 23, 2014, 03:55:20 PM
As I recall, there was only one McDonald's location in the history of the company that closed - without relocating to an adjacent site - soley due to poor sales.
I don't know the reason for its closing, but there used to be a McDonald's at Bladensburg Road and Meigs Place, N.E. in the District of Columbia that was never replaced. The building is still there (it stood vacant for many years) here (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=bladensburg+road,+n.e.+washington,+d.c.&ll=38.90542,-76.979994&spn=0.002041,0.003964&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&channel=np&hnear=Bladensburg+Rd+NE,+Washington,+District+of+Columbia&gl=us&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=38.905212,-76.980132&panoid=-jnUTj_aLidKw8iQ3rjuig&cbp=12,296.01,,0,14.78).
There is also an abandoned McDonald's on Martin Luther King, Jr. Avenue, S.E. (also in D.C.) that was never replaced here (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=martin+luther+king+avenue,+s.e.,+washington+dc&ll=38.848361,-76.995991&spn=0.000255,0.000496&hnear=Martin+Luther+King+Jr+Ave+SE,+Washington,+District+of+Columbia&gl=us&t=h&z=21&layer=c&cbll=38.848361,-76.995991&panoid=RbcQwheaRPYdGixSbWUFHQ&cbp=12,267.12,,0,15.51). It closed many years ago because some mentally ill patients who were allowed to leave the adjacent St. Elizabeth's Hospital campus during the day would "hang out" at this restaurant for hours on end, discouraging paying customers. The owners might want to consider opening it again, since its next door neighbor now is a complex owned by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (the parcel of land between MLK Avenue and I-295 (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=38.852977,-77.000306&num=1&t=h&gl=us&z=15) was no longer needed for treating patients and declared surplus and ultimately transferred to DHS for redevelopment and use as its headquarters some years ago).
Quote from: Brandon on January 23, 2014, 04:27:17 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 23, 2014, 03:07:26 PM
Roy Rogers is more than just burgers though - they are also fried chicken and roast beef.
And maybe that is some of the problem as well...When someone says Roast Beef, Arby's probably comes to mind. When someone says Fried Chicken, KFC & Popeyes are the front runners there. Burgers - dozens of restaurants carry them. Roy Rogers does all 3.
Roy Rogers may have tried to overreach their brand by doing everything, to the point where they are most well known for their fixings station and not much else. I'm not sure lettuce, tomato, ketchup and mustard is a very huge selling point for people undecided what they want to eat.
Exactly. I never think of Roy's and hamburgers. To me, they're a roast beef place first and foremost, better than Arby's. In fact, with the western connotations of the name "Roy Rogers", they might be better off dumping the burgers from the menu for any sort of expansion and going whole bovine into roast beef and related sandwiches and maybe having the fried chicken on the side.
Not to derail the thread (well, okay, just a little), but growing up, Roy Rogers = fried chicken to me. So talk about your brand identity crises.
Quote from: Indyroads on January 23, 2014, 05:48:45 PM
Anyone remember Rax Roast beef
Yep, Bellevue had one briefly in the early 2000's. It replaced a Hardee's, and then only stayed open for a couple years or so before closing for good. Then the building sat vacant for a decade, in fact, it just got torn down a day or two ago.
I remember it being pretty good for a fast food joint. Too bad it didn't last.
Quote from: PHLBOS on January 23, 2014, 05:02:11 PM
Quote from: roadman on January 23, 2014, 03:55:20 PM
As I recall, there was only one McDonald's location in the history of the company that closed - without relocating to an adjacent site - soley due to poor sales. That was in Central Square, Lynn, in the late 1970s. The restaurant was opened as one of the cornerstone fixtures of the failed Union Street walkway project.
The Beverly one along MA 1A south of MA 22/127 junction closed when the new Essex Bridge to Salem opened. I don't believe it was replaced with a relocated one.
Abandoned McDonald's at Beverly-Salem Border (http://goo.gl/maps/3f1rw)
The McDonalds in Mackinaw City, Michigan, used to close for the winter every year. Sometime since 2000, it has just closed without a replacement. As far as I know, there was no replacement for the McDonalds in Waters, Michigan, off I-75.
Quote from: bulldog1979 on January 24, 2014, 01:06:53 AM
Quote from: PHLBOS on January 23, 2014, 05:02:11 PM
Quote from: roadman on January 23, 2014, 03:55:20 PM
As I recall, there was only one McDonald's location in the history of the company that closed - without relocating to an adjacent site - soley due to poor sales. That was in Central Square, Lynn, in the late 1970s. The restaurant was opened as one of the cornerstone fixtures of the failed Union Street walkway project.
The Beverly one along MA 1A south of MA 22/127 junction closed when the new Essex Bridge to Salem opened. I don't believe it was replaced with a relocated one.
Abandoned McDonald's at Beverly-Salem Border (http://goo.gl/maps/3f1rw)
The McDonalds in Mackinaw City, Michigan, used to close for the winter every year. Sometime since 2000, it has just closed without a replacement. As far as I know, there was no replacement for the McDonalds in Waters, Michigan, off I-75.
A McDonald's closed on State St. in downtown Rochester. The Chinese restaurant that replaced it didn't even bother to swap out the McDonald's-style doors. As far as I know, they're
still on the building!
Re: Rax Roast Beef. Not many of them left around. I used to eat at the one in London, Ky. just about every Friday for a long stretch back in the late 1980s when I had to travel there weekly for work purposes. I also ate at the one in Aberdeen, Ohio (across the river from Maysville, Ky.) pretty frequently when I was in that area.
Re: Roy Rogers and Hardee's. The one time I've eaten Roy Rogers food (at a service area on some toll road, I think it may have been the NY Thruway), I liked it. I got a burger and it was very good for a fast-food burger. As for those who mentioned Hardees, one of the things I really liked about the Hardee's of 25-30 years ago was their menu variety. If you wanted a burger, you could get a burger (and it was charbroiled, too). If you wanted roast beef or ham, they had that too. Now they're doing mostly overpriced fast food burgers.
Quote from: empirestate on January 24, 2014, 01:11:14 AM
Quote from: bulldog1979 on January 24, 2014, 01:06:53 AM
Quote from: PHLBOS on January 23, 2014, 05:02:11 PM
Quote from: roadman on January 23, 2014, 03:55:20 PM
As I recall, there was only one McDonald's location in the history of the company that closed - without relocating to an adjacent site - soley due to poor sales. That was in Central Square, Lynn, in the late 1970s. The restaurant was opened as one of the cornerstone fixtures of the failed Union Street walkway project.
The Beverly one along MA 1A south of MA 22/127 junction closed when the new Essex Bridge to Salem opened. I don't believe it was replaced with a relocated one.
Abandoned McDonald's at Beverly-Salem Border (http://goo.gl/maps/3f1rw)
The McDonalds in Mackinaw City, Michigan, used to close for the winter every year. Sometime since 2000, it has just closed without a replacement. As far as I know, there was no replacement for the McDonalds in Waters, Michigan, off I-75.
A McDonald's closed on State St. in downtown Rochester. The Chinese restaurant that replaced it didn't even bother to swap out the McDonald's-style doors. As far as I know, they're still on the building!
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.shifthappens.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F05%2Fmyth-busted.jpg&hash=1736803c08e2916acad7df652cd22a2054e8919a)
Quote from: hbelkins on January 24, 2014, 01:10:11 PM
Re: Rax Roast Beef. Not many of them left around. I used to eat at the one in London, Ky. just about every Friday for a long stretch back in the late 1980s when I had to travel there weekly for work purposes. I also ate at the one in Aberdeen, Ohio (across the river from Maysville, Ky.) pretty frequently when I was in that area.
Re: Roy Rogers and Hardee's. The one time I've eaten Roy Rogers food (at a service area on some toll road, I think it may have been the NY Thruway), I liked it. I got a burger and it was very good for a fast-food burger. As for those who mentioned Hardees, one of the things I really liked about the Hardee's of 25-30 years ago was their menu variety. If you wanted a burger, you could get a burger (and it was charbroiled, too). If you wanted roast beef or ham, they had that too. Now they're doing mostly overpriced fast food burgers.
I think the issue with Hardee's is that they got bought out sometime in the late 1980s and then got bought out again by the people who own Carl's Jr. (which I've never visited, but I understand the new Hardee's logo with that star is based on the Carl's Jr. logo). They discontinued the charbroiled burgers sometime in the early 1980s as part of a cost-cutting move (prior to the ill-fated acquisition of Roy Rogers, which was done primarily because Hardee's wanted to sell Roy's fried chicken).
I haven't seen a Hardee's location in quite some time (the one I remember on Gallows Road in Northern Virginia is now an Arby's). I remember after the ill-fated Roy's acquisition they switched a bunch of them back to being Roy's and the sign said "Roy Rogers featuring Hardee's breakfast." I seem to recall the breakfast was pretty good. The last time I ate at a Hardee's was sometime in the late 1990s either at one that was just off I-95 in the Petersburg area (may have actually been Colonial Heights–near where the toll plaza used to be) on my way to or from Duke or at one that was on Chapel Hill Road in Durham, NC.
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 24, 2014, 03:50:41 PMI think the issue with Hardee's is that they got bought out sometime in the late 1980s and then got bought out again by the people who own Carl's Jr. (which I've never visited, but I understand the new Hardee's logo with that star is based on the Carl's Jr. logo).
Correct.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwhatthehellareyoueating.files.wordpress.com%2F2008%2F06%2Fcarls-jr_hardees_logo.gif&hash=f29ee9e4939212603fb1bce0638764b59f93a274)
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 24, 2014, 03:50:41 PMI haven't seen a Hardee's location in quite some time (the one I remember on Gallows Road in Northern Virginia is now an Arby's).
There's 5 of them in Delaware.
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 24, 2014, 03:50:41 PM
I think the issue with Hardee's is that they got bought out sometime in the late 1980s and then got bought out again by the people who own Carl's Jr...
Yes and no. Hardee's was bought out by CKE (the parent of Carl's Jr.) in 1997, but by that time, Hardee's had already hit bottom (or was close to it). If anything, CKE turned the company around.
Going back to the '60s and '70s, Hardee's was basically a regional chain in their home state of NC and surrounding ones, with their reputation built on "charco-broiled" burgers. They introduced made-from-scratch breakfast biscuits in 1978–which became a hallmark menu item–in an era when many fast food restaurants didn't offer breakfast at all.
Hardee's was bought by the Canadian tobacco conglomerate IMASCO that same year (1978), and the new owners expanded Hardee's reach by buying up other regional burger chains and converting them to Hardee's. Their forced conversion of Burger Chef in 1982 embittered many former fans, and the Roy Rogers customer revolt has been mentioned. All the while, IMASCO drained Hardee's dry–slashing payrolls, cutting corners–diluting the product and still expanding to places where the Hardee's brand was unknown, unloved, and unwanted.
CKE bought Hardee's primarily because there was little overlap between its Southeast/Midwest territory and Carl's Jr.'s footprint in the West. Today, Hardee's is largely "Carl's East" , but there has been some cross pollination with Hardee's breakfast appearing in Carl's Jr. locations.
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 24, 2014, 03:50:41 PM
I haven't seen a Hardee's location in quite some time...
I think Hardee's (still then under IMASCO) gave up on the greater Washington area after the Roy's debacle. They do have locations further north in PA (and DE, as mentioned). The continued strength of Roy Rogers in that market may be enough to keep CKE from trying again.
Quote from: PHLBOS on January 24, 2014, 04:35:44 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 24, 2014, 03:50:41 PMI think the issue with Hardee's is that they got bought out sometime in the late 1980s and then got bought out again by the people who own Carl's Jr. (which I've never visited, but I understand the new Hardee's logo with that star is based on the Carl's Jr. logo).
Correct.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwhatthehellareyoueating.files.wordpress.com%2F2008%2F06%2Fcarls-jr_hardees_logo.gif&hash=f29ee9e4939212603fb1bce0638764b59f93a274)
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 24, 2014, 03:50:41 PMI haven't seen a Hardee's location in quite some time (the one I remember on Gallows Road in Northern Virginia is now an Arby's).
There's 5 of them in Delaware.
The Northeastern-most location I'm aware of is in Middletown, DE. This is about the same area where the Northeastern-most Waffle House is located (well, unless you include Elkton, MD).
Quote from: briantroutman on January 24, 2014, 05:32:36 PM
Hardee's was bought by the Canadian tobacco conglomerate IMASCO that same year (1978), and the new owners expanded Hardee's reach by buying up other regional burger chains and converting them to Hardee's. Their forced conversion of Burger Chef in 1982 embittered many former fans, and the Roy Rogers customer revolt has been mentioned. All the while, IMASCO drained Hardee's dry–slashing payrolls, cutting corners–diluting the product and still expanding to places where the Hardee's brand was unknown, unloved, and unwanted.
Added emphasis is mine.As a Midwesterner, I had visited a Hardee's in the South while vacationing in the '70s and I generally liked what I got. However, taking away my Burger Chefs was unacceptable, so I have engaged in a decades-long one person boycott. I was sure that it would bring Hardees to their knees, but it hasn't yet.
I did "cheat" on the boycott once when I stopped in desperation at an Indiana Toll Road plaza and had a Hardee's breakfast sandwich. It was actually very tasty and served promptly, damn it! :verymad:
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 24, 2014, 05:54:02 PM
The Northeastern-most location I'm aware of is in Middletown, DE. This is about the same area where the Northeastern-most Waffle House is located (well, unless you include Elkton, MD).
Or Lancaster–hell, Clarks Summit, PA.
(How many Waffle Houses ever did the karaoke Mondays, by the way?)
It took awhile for Hardee's to get to Kentucky. On several family vacations in the late 1960s and early 1970s, our route took us through Abingdon, Va., where we got on I-81. There was a Hardee's near the Alt. US 58 interchange, and that was often our first stop of the trip so my dad could get one of their steak biscuits. This was probably one of the closest Hardee's restaurants to our home until they expanded into Kentucky.
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Quote from: briantroutman on January 18, 2014, 06:23:57 PM
Quote from: Marc_in_CT on January 18, 2014, 05:43:38 PM
There was a service plaza on I-30 in TX with a Howard Johnson's Restaurant and Hotel.
I'm pretty sure that's the one I was trying to remember. Odd that the only service area to offer this kind of "long-haul" feature would be on a 30-mile toll road that stays within the same metro. I don't really know much about the DFW Turnpike–was it even a closed-ticket system?
Yes, as a turnpike it was a closed ticket system. The service plaza offered gas, restaurant, hotel and a "free" turnaround (for those who found themselves driving in the wrong direction) without needing to pay to exit and to re-enter.
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 24, 2014, 03:50:41 PM
The last time I ate at a Hardee's was sometime in the late 1990s either at one that was just off I-95 in the Petersburg area (may have actually been Colonial Heights—near where the toll plaza used to be)
That's actually our second Hardees; it opened in the 1990s. The first one, which has been around my whole life, is about a mile away in the other direction. I haven't been to either one in years; I think the last time I ate at Hardees was when I was in college, at the one in Petersburg. These days the only time I get fast food is either Cook Out (great menu selection and prices) or Sheetz, although at my local car meets I'll go to the McDonalds across the parking lot for the occasional McFlurry. I've never been to a Roy Rogers as I'm rarely in NoVA. Maybe next time.
The Pizza Hut locations that don't have sit down service are typically called "Pizza Hut Express".
I fondly remember Roy Rogers in Northern NJ back in the 80s, most of their locations were converted from Gino's. The one across from Penn Station in NYC is still kicking along somehow.
I think the only time I ever stopped at a Parkway service area was late at night when everything else was closed. I was driving a friend of mine home and he wanted to stop at the Cheesequake service area. Its amazing how less picky people are when they are trashed. I'd say he wasn't the only drunk person there that night!
Service areas did become a popular place after Sandy hit. They are all equipped with generators and were one of the few places able to pump gas.