AARoads Forum

I am going to vote yes, because I believe having toll booths keeps people employed. Cameras help no one.
I also like just paying on the road and getting it over with.

If you don't have EZPass (or whatever thing the state uses that is incompatible), it is much easier if there is someone there than if a camera is used.

Before I got EZPass, I still felt sentimentality for the idle chit-chat with the toll collectors.  Not seven years later, I can't believe how quaint that seems.

I'd prefer an account that didn't hold onto an interestless balance of my money, which discouraged me initially.  I guess credit card transactions are still too slow and expensive, even though LevelUp seems able to sell me coffee more or less instantly. 

You can have a toll booth without having an attendant. Some Indiana Toll Road collection points are like that. If you don't have an EZ-Pass or compatible unit, you can pull up to a ATM-like structure that will gladly accept your credit card, bank card, or good-old dollars. I preferred the live attendants, but the owners of the concession don't like paying real people.

Electronic toll lanes & cameras create jobs too. People need to review tag numbers, process payments, run machines, maintain the equipment, etc. And I'd argue that for most of them, they work in much better conditions than in a toll booth.

At toll plazas with humans, there's no guarantee the patron will drive into a manned lane. Even worse, these people that have no clue what EZ Pass is, will pull over and walk across the toll lanes, including across the lanes where drivers don't need to stop.

Quote from: theline on March 03, 2014, 12:14:34 AM
You can have a toll booth without having an attendant. Some Indiana Toll Road collection points are like that. If you don't have an EZ-Pass or compatible unit, you can pull up to a ATM-like structure that will gladly accept your credit card, bank card, or good-old dollars. I preferred the live attendants, but the owners of the concession don't like paying real people.

I wish all toll facilities took credit cards. Seriously, the technology has been around far longer than EZ Pass and camera tolls. There's no excuse.

Accepting credit and debit cards makes financial sense, I'd think. You have a lot better chance of collecting if you give the user multiple ways of paying right on the spot. If state or toll road operator sends a bill based on a camera or even hands the driver an envelope, there has to be a fair percentage of folks who never pay or only pay after a lengthy and costly collection effort.

I think the likely reasons against would mainly involve time.  As it stands, you can pay with a credit card -- you just have to use the toll road's method and equipment to do so.

You can pay for the subway here with a credit card, but it doesn't mean you don't have to buy a card/ticket.  EZPass is the toll road's ticket, its credit card machine you keep in your car.

Quote from: theline on March 03, 2014, 02:06:24 AM
Accepting credit and debit cards makes financial sense, I'd think. You have a lot better chance of collecting if you give the user multiple ways of paying right on the spot. If state or toll road operator sends a bill based on a camera or even hands the driver an envelope, there has to be a fair percentage of folks who never pay or only pay after a lengthy and costly collection effort.

Also, if a toll road operator sends a bill based on a camera, there are ample opportunities to add on fees that folks have were not informed about prior to incurring the bill but have no recourse except to pay.

I suspect, but do not know for sure, that one reason some toll roads don't take credit cards is due to the interchange fee. This is the same reason why you have to pay a service charge if your charge your income tax: the government isn't going to give a cut of your taxes to American Express (or whomever), so the payment processing company charges a fee to cover that. Some tolling agencies presumably have no interest in giving part of the toll to the card issuers. Others, obviously, have no qualms.

BTW, regarding envelopes, I believe I read the Delaware Turnpike once tried that and found it failed miserably.

The Garden State Parkway long had envelopes at the exact change baskets.  I grabbed one once as a souvenir, but have surely lost it.

You used to be able to get envelopes at ISTHA toll plazas by asking the attendant in the manual lanes.  Now, it's all online (no penalty within 7 days).  With the combination of being able to pay online within 7 days, and I-Pass, there's not much point to the old automatic (coin basket) lanes anymore.  There's also now a limited number of manual lanes at the mainline toll plazas.  As 75-80% of tollway users have an I-Pass or equivalent, that only leaves 20% max who need these other ways to pay.

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 03, 2014, 09:44:30 AM
I suspect, but do not know for sure, that one reason some toll roads don't take credit cards is due to the interchange fee. This is the same reason why you have to pay a service charge if your charge your income tax: the government isn't going to give a cut of your taxes to American Express (or whomever), so the payment processing company charges a fee to cover that. Some tolling agencies presumably have no interest in giving part of the toll to the card issuers. Others, obviously, have no qualms.

BTW, regarding envelopes, I believe I read the Delaware Turnpike once tried that and found it failed miserably.

Businesses get around that by charging everyone more since it's illegal for them to add on credit card fees.  Maybe the toll roads do this too.

I think cash up front is the answer.  When we have the money in our hands, we can see where its going as well as delegate where it goes (budget).  True if you look each day on the internet where you expenditures goes, however it still is better if you have the money in your hand literally than using the credit system.

I believe that is why this society is in the trouble it is because we rely to much on credit and electronic money transactions.  I like the older days with paychecks and money received from it over direct deposit as well as mailing in checks for bill paying and getting the cancelled checks back.  It was all easier.  Maybe inconvenient, but now we see money as credit or credits and the same on the roads.  Sure its nice to whiz by the toll booths at highways speeds, but you do not see the money in hand still for you mind to process.

No, no, no, NO ... ten thousand times NO!

Toll booths and toll barriers are an icon of the 19th (yes, there were toll roads prior to 1900 in the U.S.) and 20th Centuries.

Ontario's Highway 407 ETR (regardless of what people think about the high tolls charged by its private-sector owners), and then the HOV/Toll lanes on Ca. 91 in Orange County; Maryland's Route 200 (ICC) and North Carolina's Route 540 (TriEx) are the way of the future, and all toll roads and toll crossings should convert to all-electronic cashless toll collection as soon as possible. 

I like the idea of having all the options available.  You can pay with cash or a card, use a pre-paid account, or just drive through and get a bill in the mail.  The main lanes would have full-speed operation for electronic collection, and the cash collection or card payments would be off to the side.  If there are long lines in the cash/card lanes, you can just drive through and wait for the bill.  If you're in a borrowed or rental car, you can stop and pay and not incur the rental toll fees or surprise the owner of the borrowed car with a bill.  TxDOT toll roads near Austin were like that until last year, minus the credit cards.

I see no need to hire people for toll booths.  Machines can collect bills and coins or run credit cards.  One thing I'd do is make the machines interactive, so you can select your exit point and pay the toll for all future toll points at once.  The system would get your license plate number and you'd drive through the full-speed lanes after that.

Quote from: vdeane on March 03, 2014, 01:39:35 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 03, 2014, 09:44:30 AM
I suspect, but do not know for sure, that one reason some toll roads don't take credit cards is due to the interchange fee. This is the same reason why you have to pay a service charge if your charge your income tax: the government isn't going to give a cut of your taxes to American Express (or whomever), so the payment processing company charges a fee to cover that. Some tolling agencies presumably have no interest in giving part of the toll to the card issuers. Others, obviously, have no qualms.

BTW, regarding envelopes, I believe I read the Delaware Turnpike once tried that and found it failed miserably.

Businesses get around that by charging everyone more since it's illegal for them to add on credit card fees.  Maybe the toll roads do this too.

On the contrary, credit card users — meaning electronic toll collection users — are usually charged a lower price than cash payers. This is because the infrastructure to collect and handle cash is much more expensive than the same required for credit card payments. Nobody has to be paid to stand around all night and wait for you to hand them money, nobody has to count your money, and your money doesn't actually have to be kept anywhere.  Never mind the silly building out on the highway interrupting the flow of traffic, sometimes creating miles-long backups and tempting the manipulative little hands of vindictive politicians.

I am to this day astonished that a lot of services process a check for free, but require a fee for electronic funds transfer.  (see: my monthly mortgage payment.)

People are always resistant to change. At first, it may make sense (manuals vs. early automatics), but after awhile, the new way is so clearly better that the only reason not to move forward is nostalgia. We're getting to that point on toll roads.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 03, 2014, 03:00:15 PM
No, no, no, NO ... ten thousand times NO!

Toll booths and toll barriers are an icon of the 19th (yes, there were toll roads prior to 1900 in the U.S.) and 20th Centuries.

Back when turnpikes actually turned

Ontario's Highway 407 ETR (regardless of what people think about the high tolls charged by its private-sector owners), and then the HOV/Toll lanes on Ca. 91 in Orange County; Maryland's Route 200 (ICC) and North Carolina's Route 540 (TriEx) are the way of the future, and all toll roads and toll crossings should convert to all-electronic cashless toll collection as soon as possible.

I understand that after 6-30-2014 there will be no more toll booths on any of the Orange County toll roads.  All tolls will be paid with transponder , prepaid with expressaccount or billed by a photo license plate identification method.

To the ATM card thing: What's if the card is declined? (happens all the time in the real world)

Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 03, 2014, 04:22:30 PM
I am to this day astonished that a lot of services process a check for free, but require a fee for electronic funds transfer.  (see: my monthly mortgage payment.)

My local utility recently had an ad campaign encouraging people to switch to paperless billing. Rather than handling said paperless billing in house, they outsourced it to a firm which charges customers a $5 a month fee for the convenience of receiving their bill electronically rather than in the mail.

Naturally, I didn't sign up. Way to kill your campaign, eh?

---

As for toll booths, I would have to agree that all-electronic is the future. That said, there really should be one standard transponder valid throughout North America for said purpose.

Quote from: on_wisconsin on March 03, 2014, 11:58:59 PM
To the ATM card thing: What's if the card is declined? (happens all the time in the real world)

The same thing that happens when someone doesn't have enough change: they are forced to run the toll and get charged the toll bill plus administrative fees in the mail.

I wouldn't mind being charged 50 cents or a dollar more to use a credit or debit card because its still cheaper than being mailed the toll with a two or three dollar administrative fee.

Taking credit cards doesn't need to be a service offered in all toll lanes; there could be a couple of full service ones off to the side so that the cash in hand people aren't slowed down.


iPhone

Sort of like now dialing a business you get that "Listen closely to the following menu options; Press 1 for ..., press 2 for..., Press 3 for.... etc to only have you press the number to give you more options to the point when you think that a human will have to answer they find another set of options.  Customer service is a thing of the past just like manned toll lanes were.

I do agree, we should at least have options.  I was mad back in the 80's when the record companies forced the public to buy compact discs after all retro 70s and before were finally redone to that concept.  Me I liked having the choices of cassette tapes, 12 inch LPs, and CDs.  If I liked the sound of a group I would have bought the CD, if it was not that great the vinyl worked.  Basically I would give myself that extra treat once in a while as when CDs were new they were the new age of course, so you would wait for a band like Rush, or Pink Floyd to have it on CD, but the rest were okay and did not matter.

I think the day of choice is gone, but like I said it is why the average Joe is in debt because we do not physically see money anymore.  John Tesh had results of a study done on why its still important to pay with cash over credit and his findings seem to make sense.

Quote from: roadman65 on March 03, 2014, 02:11:42 PM
I think cash up front is the answer.  When we have the money in our hands, we can see where its going as well as delegate where it goes (budget).  True if you look each day on the internet where you expenditures goes, however it still is better if you have the money in your hand literally than using the credit system.

I believe that is why this society is in the trouble it is because we rely to much on credit and electronic money transactions.  I like the older days with paychecks and money received from it over direct deposit as well as mailing in checks for bill paying and getting the cancelled checks back.  It was all easier.  Maybe inconvenient, but now we see money as credit or credits and the same on the roads.  Sure its nice to whiz by the toll booths at highways speeds, but you do not see the money in hand still for you mind to process.

I would disagree - having been in both environments of dealing both paper and electronic payments and statements for almost all of my transactions.

What would be easier:

1. Paying your mortgage by driving or taking the bus to the local Savings & Loan (only 5 locations in the metro), walking inside, writing a check, filling out a form and then submitting it to the teller?
2. Inputting the amount owed, date and pressing submit on PNC Virtual Wallet, a process that takes no more than 3 minutes from going to the website, logging in and making the payment. I have now automatically done - which saves me on days and weeks when I'm on the road or out of service.

1. Mailing in checks for bills and receiving a cancelled check.
2. Making a payment online.

1. Fumbling for cash and change - and then having excess change (which then needs to be rolled and deposited or exchanged for gift cards).
2. Swiping or waving a card. I have many of my loyalty cards on my iPhone now - so in some instances, I no longer need to bring my debit/credit card. I use my iPhone to pay for Starbucks and to have it deposit money on the account when it runs low. It also tracks my loyalty and keeps my points accurate - eliminating punch cards.

1. Having to find an ATM, keeping change and then finding it all while driving to pay tolls. And then waiting in queues to pay an overpaid teller.
2. Driving at 70 MPH through an electronic lane without stopping and having it either photograph your plate or deduct it from your account automatically.

Quote from: roadman65 on March 04, 2014, 03:25:42 PM
I think the day of choice is gone

I disagree. There are still choices, they're just different choices. For the SunPass toll-by-plate lanes in Miami, the choices are to buy a SunPass and get a discount, register a toll-by-plate online and pay the stated toll, or to just drive through the toll booth and get a bill in the mail plus an administrative fee. They got rid of the cash option but added the two camera toll options.

For your music analogy, our choices now are CD or digital. We still have a choice there as well.

Quote from: roadman65 on March 04, 2014, 03:25:42 PMJohn Tesh had results of a study done on why its still important to pay with cash over credit and his findings seem to make sense.

Yanni says I should pay solely with travelers checks denominated in goat.

seriously, a hard adherence to cash is for two sorts of people: 1) those too dumb or irresponsible to understand credit, and 2) tax evaders.  checks are for... well, really no one, anymore.

Part of the problem with toll booths is, as others have noted, when there is a toll plaza with no ORT lanes, you face potential hazards with people who go to the wrong lane or fail to read the signs or who don't understand how it works. The problem is compounded when the toll booths retain the gate arms traditionally used in the toll machine lanes, and then there is the issue of toll plazas with no ETC-only lanes such that cash users and ETC users go through the same lane. It can be really friggin' scary when you stop to throw in 75¢ worth of quarters and you glance in your mirror and see a Ford Excursion bearing down on you at 55 mph with no apparent intention of slowing down (this happened to me once on the Dulles Toll Road in the days before I had a Smart Tag transponder). Of course, it's also scary when you're bearing down on the ETC-only lane and you realize the car in front of you has stopped and the driver is trying to figure out where to pay cash.

A lot of this comes from the issue of toll agencies trying to do it on the cheap by simply using the existing toll plaza with as few modifications as possible, or in some cases from toll agencies trying to retain maximum flexibility in toll lane usage (the Dulles Greenway, for example, has no room to expand the main plaza near Dulles Airport because the airport won't let them, so they don't want to remove any of the booths lest they need them in the future).

In addition to the idea of a universal transponder that would work on all North American toll roads, I'd like to see greater standardization for marking ETC-only lanes at toll plazas where construction of an ORT facility is impractical or undesirable, especially if the plaza accepts the ETC system at all toll lanes. I like the system used in the Northeast where the flashing yellow light designates an "E-ZPass Only" lane. If you know to look for it, it makes it very easy to find that lane at a glance (of course, that raises the problem of drivers from elsewhere not knowing to look for it). I find that Virginia's system of using a bunch of tiny little signs does not lend itself to quick decisions as to which lanes are "E-ZPass Only," which are toll machines, and which are full-service–see images below. (The plastic bollards seen here were not in place as of February 8, my most recent trip through that toll plaza, nor were they there in December because I have dashcam video of someone swerving at the last instant.) The lighted signs say "COINS ONLY" or "FULL SERVICE," BTW.

I know the current MUTCD has some sections about using the ETC system's "pictogram" and the like, but what I'm getting at is the issue that where every lane accepts the ETC system, you sometimes have the problem of the toll agency wanting to put the pictogram over each lane such that it adds to visual clutter in what is already an area that inherently has a fair amount of signs and a lot going on in a small area.


(In these two pictures, the speed limit in the two left lanes is 35 mph. It's not unusual to see people go through at 60+.)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wtop.com%2Femedia%2Fwtop%2F30%2F3086%2F308626.jpg&hash=e5d822567c46c73a7c0fac6c93c63aeb08da6c78)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wtop.com%2Femedia%2Fwtop%2F28%2F2861%2F286166.jpg%3Ffilter%3Dwtop_article&hash=54029c5ffba7e7e55f8048e3bc91a0f28bf5ae4f)

I think ultimately I come down to the idea that new toll roads should not have toll booths. For older roads, I'm more torn. As long as there is no universal interoperability with North American transponders, I think the idea of maintaining the cash payment option is very important if toll agencies are going to persist in keeping the gate arms in place (as a number of the E-ZPass consortium members do). But certainly the number of cash lanes can be minimized if the toll road gets the bulk of its business from local traffic such that the vast majority of transactions are via ETC methods (the Dulles Greenway and Toll Road would be examples of that, whereas a road like the New Jersey Turnpike might be a prime example of a road that carries a heck of a lot of non-local traffic).

---

Quote from: realjd on March 04, 2014, 03:59:55 PM
....

For your music analogy, our choices now are CD or digital. We still have a choice there as well.

I bought several new LPs this winter. Interestingly, they included a card with a code for downloading a copy (unfortunately in low-rez .MP3 rather than .FLAC).

CDs are digital, BTW!

Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 04, 2014, 04:21:35 PM

Quote from: roadman65 on March 04, 2014, 03:25:42 PMJohn Tesh had results of a study done on why its still important to pay with cash over credit and his findings seem to make sense.

Yanni says I should pay solely with travelers checks denominated in goat.

seriously, a hard adherence to cash is for two sorts of people: 1) those too dumb or irresponsible to understand credit, and 2) tax evaders.  checks are for... well, really no one, anymore.

I think you are missing the point.  It is not about responsibility as the way your brain works. 

I am a sales person, in this business it makes a difference what words you use or not.  One word can make the difference between sale or fail.

Our minds are so complex that even the simple mind cannot figure it out, but doctors have done studies on how we react to certain things or words even though it may seem like it is not that.  Even the color blue can cause effect on human minds and create serenity while the color red creates excitement hence the red light or stop signs.  We do not control the reaction of those colors its the way our brain's are wired up.

If I ever see a new freeway designed with tollbooths, I will actively pursue an agenda to see them replaced with electronic-only. Tollbooths are...

A) more expensive;
B) slower;
B-1) more likely to induce heavy traffic;
C) far wider than the freeway, and therefore take more land; &
D) just really old fashioned?

With that said, there are a couple of advantages...

A) easier to manage (WSDOT is always sending bills to the wrong people, hard to fuck up a system that forgoes licence plate scanning);
B) simpler for those who don't like complicated things (losing the bill, etc);
C) easier to keep hidden from your mate ("why did you cross the 520 last night, Jamie?");
C-1) under-the-table transactions for the win?

Still, I hate tollbooths.

Operators were once required to complete phone calls.  Toll booths are our modern equivalent –expensive, slow, and obsolete.  Say goodbye.

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 04, 2014, 04:31:29 PM
I bought several new LPs this winter. Interestingly, they included a card with a code for downloading a copy (unfortunately in low-rez .MP3 rather than .FLAC).

CDs are digital, BTW!

They still sell LPs? How quaint. Is the target market hipsters or DJs?

And yes, I'm a computer engineer, I understand that CDs are digital. You know what I meant :)

Quote from: realjd on March 04, 2014, 09:37:17 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 04, 2014, 04:31:29 PM
I bought several new LPs this winter. Interestingly, they included a card with a code for downloading a copy (unfortunately in low-rez .MP3 rather than .FLAC).

CDs are digital, BTW!

They still sell LPs? How quaint. Is the target market hipsters or DJs?

....

Audiophiles, mostly.

Quote from: roadman65 on March 04, 2014, 04:59:31 PM

Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 04, 2014, 04:21:35 PM

Quote from: roadman65 on March 04, 2014, 03:25:42 PMJohn Tesh had results of a study done on why its still important to pay with cash over credit and his findings seem to make sense.

Yanni says I should pay solely with travelers checks denominated in goat.

seriously, a hard adherence to cash is for two sorts of people: 1) those too dumb or irresponsible to understand credit, and 2) tax evaders.  checks are for... well, really no one, anymore.

I think you are missing the point.  It is not about responsibility as the way your brain works. 

I am a sales person, in this business it makes a difference what words you use or not.  One word can make the difference between sale or fail.

Our minds are so complex that even the simple mind cannot figure it out, but doctors have done studies on how we react to certain things or words even though it may seem like it is not that.  Even the color blue can cause effect on human minds and create serenity while the color red creates excitement hence the red light or stop signs.  We do not control the reaction of those colors its the way our brain's are wired up.

I find my brain handles electronic better than cash.  Probably because electronic transactions are validated by my checking account balance whereas cash is validated by nothing since I use it so rarely and cash in my wallet is considered money already spent (my budget is based on my checking account and nothing else; assets not in my checking account are essentially considered as not existing; this all developed due to a quirk of how my finances worked in college and I have had reason to fix it).

Quote from: roadman65 on March 04, 2014, 04:59:31 PMI think you are missing the point.  It is not about responsibility as the way your brain works. 

I am a sales person, in this business it makes a difference what words you use or not.  One word can make the difference between sale or fail.

Our minds are so complex that even the simple mind cannot figure it out, but doctors have done studies on how we react to certain things or words even though it may seem like it is not that.  Even the color blue can cause effect on human minds and create serenity while the color red creates excitement hence the red light or stop signs.  We do not control the reaction of those colors its the way our brain's are wired up.

well, you're trying to sell me your argument here and you're utterly failing.

are you seriously blaming your own inability to handle credit on the same principle that fast food restaurants are painted red because they're more likely to get the Pavlov-dog crowd salivating?  i.e. you're admitting that you're a slave to advertising.  have some personal responsibility.  yep, there I go again with that word. 

I'm not against the technology per se. I am against incurring the hidden fees that I am powerless to stop when I use certain toll roads. The fees make the total 3-5 times higher than the stated toll. Stop the gouging - the sanctioned theft - and I'll willingly come into the 21st century.

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 04, 2014, 04:31:29 PM
...But certainly the number of cash lanes can be minimized if the toll road gets the bulk of its business from local traffic such that the vast majority of transactions are via ETC methods (the Dulles Greenway and Toll Road would be examples of that, whereas a road like the New Jersey Turnpike might be a prime example of a road that carries a heck of a lot of non-local traffic).

Just an FYI...in January, 2014, EZ Pass Usage on the NJ Turnpike was 82.3%.  On the GSP, it was 78.5%. 

Total Revenue on the 2 toll roads was $117 million for the month of January.  So even though EZ Pass usage is around 80%, that still means about $23 million was collected in cash. 

Some of those cash users are people that use the toll roads daily, but don't want EZ Pass.  Could be numerous reasons, from not having a bank account or credit card to wearing tin-foil hats.  If the toll roads did go all-electronic, some of them would finally get a tag. 

FWIW, usage in the summer doesn't go down.  Sure, many of the regular commuters take vacations, but many of those taking vacations have EZ Pass as well.

(Info found under monthly financial summaries here: http://www.state.nj.us/turnpike/investor-relations.html)

In my view, until there is a nationwide standard transponder that is also not subject to a monthly fee, cash should always be a "reasonable" option.

For a toll road, all through lanes should be for transponders.  Those paying by some other means should exit to a toll booth, similar to the way it is done in Florida.

Now, by "reasonable", I'm not saying that every crossing needs to have a manned toll booth.  For example, if NYC ever tolls the East River crossings, those crossings should be toll-booth free and drivers who want to pay cash should be directed to the Battery and Midtown Tunnels.  Similarly with toll roads, there could be more and more EZ-Pass only exits, so long as mainline tollbooths and major exits provide a cash option.

Quote from: mrsman on March 05, 2014, 05:35:12 PM
Those paying by some other means should exit to a toll booth, similar to the way it is done in Florida.

Florida's started to switch to ETC/pay-by-mail (major Tampa and Miami toll roads were recently converted).

Quote from: mrsman on March 05, 2014, 05:35:12 PM
In my view, until there is a nationwide standard transponder that is also not subject to a monthly fee, cash should always be a "reasonable" option.

For a toll road, all through lanes should be for transponders.  Those paying by some other means should exit to a toll booth, similar to the way it is done in Florida.

Now, by "reasonable", I'm not saying that every crossing needs to have a manned toll booth.  For example, if NYC ever tolls the East River crossings, those crossings should be toll-booth free and drivers who want to pay cash should be directed to the Battery and Midtown Tunnels.  Similarly with toll roads, there could be more and more EZ-Pass only exits, so long as mainline tollbooths and major exits provide a cash option.

I think we've seen the likely beginning and end of the brief "exit to pay at booth" era.  New Jersey went nuts in the last decade making through lanes open-road-tolling-only, with toll plazas cut back to side lanes.  I'm not sure what their long-range plan is, but even though it annoys me that Massachusetts has dragged its feet on ORT,* at least there's not an expensive in-between step in the conversion process.

In any case, there's often a perception that since we're used to something, it's not only reasonable, but we're are entitled to it.  Neither is the case any longer for cash toll payment, IMHO.  Furthermore, since the rest of us are costing the tolling agency less when we pay, why shouldn't cash users pay extra?  (This is already the case in many places, of course -- whether it is assessed as a full-fare toll for cash users or extra processing fees for them is purely academic.)


* Amusingly enough, when Bernard Cohen was Massachusetts transportation secretary in 2008, a WBZ radio reporter asked him about putting ORT in place in Massachusetts.  He hemmed and hawed about the geometry being wrong here, etc. -- typical "it just wouldn't work here because we're different and special in a way no one else understands" attitude of parochial Mass. officials -- then finally bailed out with the pathetic, "Besides, why would we want to do something they do in New Jersey?"  He was pushed out of his job about two months later.

I've long thought that instead of having a fee for an ETC device, they should simply raise the toll for the cash-payers.

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 05, 2014, 09:22:46 PM
I've long thought that instead of having a fee for an ETC device, they should simply raise the toll for the cash-payers.

They do, but they also charge for the device because they're huge dicks.
Orlando did just fine for many years with not charging.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 05, 2014, 08:50:58 PM

Quote from: mrsman on March 05, 2014, 05:35:12 PM
In my view, until there is a nationwide standard transponder that is also not subject to a monthly fee, cash should always be a "reasonable" option.

For a toll road, all through lanes should be for transponders.  Those paying by some other means should exit to a toll booth, similar to the way it is done in Florida.

Now, by "reasonable", I'm not saying that every crossing needs to have a manned toll booth.  For example, if NYC ever tolls the East River crossings, those crossings should be toll-booth free and drivers who want to pay cash should be directed to the Battery and Midtown Tunnels.  Similarly with toll roads, there could be more and more EZ-Pass only exits, so long as mainline tollbooths and major exits provide a cash option.

...I'm not sure what their long-range plan is, but even though it annoys me that Massachusetts has dragged its feet on ORT,* at least there's not an expensive in-between step in the conversion process.

Since you bring that up, the state I'm most disappointed in for ORT is Maryland.   I always thought they did a good job on their highways in general, but that whole EZ Pass thing confuses the hell out of them.  It almost appears they are completely dumbfounded that people are using the system.

The JFK Toll Plaza just north of the Susquehanna could have and should have easily been converted to ORT years ago.  The wide, lengthy toll plaza could have had 2 or 3 ORT lanes to the left.  Of the 3 mainline lanes approaching the toll plaza, none are dedicated for EZ Pass only.  Instead, there is a left exit type lane, and the lane directs motorists to the left booth only.  The 2 lanes next to this left-most booth are also always EZ Pass only, but you have to know to stay out of that far left lane.  Instead, it seems easiest to stay in the center lane approaching the toll plaza, and then drift left to get to those exclusive EZ Pass lanes near the left.  https://goo.gl/maps/sejxU  Yes, there is an interchange just north of here, but it's far enough away traffic can merge over without much issue.

At the tunnel, they went partially there...they created one ORT lane each direction, with a 30 mph speed limit.  I can't imagine what it's like at rush hour, but I've been thru it at other times, and it still backs up.  IMO...they should've converted the left two lanes going south to ORT, and those two lanes immediately go into the tunnel.  Anyone using the standard lanes are directed into the other tube.  Use cones - lots of cones - to keep traffic headed to their respective tubes, since the tubes are shut down on occasion.  (Likewise, going Northbound, the left tube should be for EZ Pass only, and those lanes would go thru 2 ORT lanes as well).  And yes, I know about the exit just south of the tunnel...those people would just have to use the traditional lanes.  I've seen the entire Northbound left tube backed up simply because of that EZ Pass lane after the tunnel.  Anymore, I keep to the right, and hit one of the EZ Pass lanes on the right.

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 05, 2014, 09:22:46 PM
I've long thought that instead of having a fee for an ETC device, they should simply raise the toll for the cash-payers.

That's what Illinois does.  Cash payers pay twice the I-Pass amount.  All the I-Pass users need to have (unless they get it at a Jewel-Osco) is a $10 deposit + $40 in pre-paid tolls.  No monthly or annual fee.  If you get it at a Jewel-Osco, then a $2.90 fee applies, but that goes to the grocer.

Quote from: NE2 on March 05, 2014, 09:31:30 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 05, 2014, 09:22:46 PM
I've long thought that instead of having a fee for an ETC device, they should simply raise the toll for the cash-payers.

They do, but they also charge for the device because they're huge dicks.
Orlando did just fine for many years with not charging.

Mass. dropped its fee years ago.  NYSTA has long been free or close to it.  Now, it's possible that, as happened with cell phones, a lot if the deals will get worse once they achieve more or less saturation.  But right now I feel like ETC is a relative bargain in these parts.

The only non-free part of NYSTA is a $10 tag deposit if you replenish by cash/check.  This deposit is refunded if you ever switch to credit card though.

The Maryland Senate just passed a bill that would force the MdTA to keep at least one cash lane at each toll booth in the state.  It was sponsored by a State Senator who has the Tydings Bridge in her district.  The MdTA was going to use the bridge as a pilot for an AET program.

Quote from: NE2 on March 05, 2014, 09:31:30 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 05, 2014, 09:22:46 PM
I've long thought that instead of having a fee for an ETC device, they should simply raise the toll for the cash-payers.

They do, but they also charge for the device because they're huge dicks.
Orlando did just fine for many years with not charging.

SunPass stickers though are practically free. They cost $5 but come with a $5 toll credit.

At least we don't have a monthly "service" fee like most states.

When I was borrowing a family member's car a few months ago, I forgot that I didn't have Pikepass and blew through the Pikepass lane.  The next day I called them and told them what happened and they charged my account.  I soon got a Pikepass for that car so I didn't have to worry about it again.

As for electronic collection vs toll booths: I prefer both.  I like a pass type system for regular customers and cash booths for drivers just driving through.  The Texas style all electronic system is very flawed, and is not acceptable given the other options available.

Quote from: iwishiwascanadian on March 15, 2014, 12:23:21 AM
The Maryland Senate just passed a bill that would force the MdTA to keep at least one cash lane at each toll booth in the state.  It was sponsored by a State Senator who has the Tydings Bridge in her district.  The MdTA was going to use the bridge as a pilot for an AET program.

Good in theory, but bad in reality.  As long as you have the cash option, people are going to use it.  You're not going to convince 99% of the drivers to convert to EZ Pass while 1% pay with cash.

Quote from: bugo on March 15, 2014, 10:04:11 AM

As for electronic collection vs toll booths: I prefer both.  I like a pass type system for regular customers and cash booths for drivers just driving through.  The Texas style all electronic system is very flawed, and is not acceptable given the other options available.

+1

Quote from: iwishiwascanadian on March 15, 2014, 12:23:21 AM
The Maryland Senate just passed a bill that would force the MdTA to keep at least one cash lane at each toll booth in the state.  It was sponsored by a State Senator who has the Tydings Bridge in her district.  The MdTA was going to use the bridge as a pilot for an AET program.

If they raise the cash toll enough to cover the price of the tollbooth (including the toll collector's pension), I say go nuts.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 15, 2014, 11:06:54 AM

Quote from: iwishiwascanadian on March 15, 2014, 12:23:21 AM
The Maryland Senate just passed a bill that would force the MdTA to keep at least one cash lane at each toll booth in the state.  It was sponsored by a State Senator who has the Tydings Bridge in her district.  The MdTA was going to use the bridge as a pilot for an AET program.

Good in theory, but bad in reality.  As long as you have the cash option, people are going to use it.  You're not going to convince 99% of the drivers to convert to EZ Pass while 1% pay with cash.

If you make the cash toll experience miserable enough, folks will convert. That's what convinced me to get an I-Pass. A few years back, I was taking my daughter to O'Hare just when the Tri-State was converting to Open Road Tolling. During the construction they really punished cash customers with long detours at each toll barrier, leading to understaffed booths and long backups. The experience was so miserable that I drove out of my way to an Osco's to purchase the transponder before making the trip to pick her up. I've not regretted the purchase a bit since. In fact, I've been known to sneer at the poor ignorant schlubs queued up in the cash lanes.

Quote from: theline on March 15, 2014, 06:20:39 PM
In fact, I've been known to sneer at the poor ignorant schlubs queued up in the cash lanes.

As a former "poor ignorant schlub" who only went near the Illinois Tollways once every five years or less and who was more often was near the non I-Pass compatible Kansas Turnpike, I find your comment offensive.  I don't believe ISTHA has a program like the North Texas Tollway Authority where once in a decade user can just set up an account for a day of two of use (although the NTTA could use an online method of registration for their program).

No offense intended. I'm sneering at the folks who are on the tollway frequently and choose not to make life a lot easier (and cheaper, considering the 50% discount for I-Pass users). All transponders used in the US should be compatible. It's ridiculous that they're not.

Of course I realize that some travelers, because they rarely ride the tollways, wouldn't benefit from a transponder, and I bear them no ill will. That's exactly why I think all toll roads should offer an alternate way to pay on the spot, either manned toll booths or ATM-like machines like in many Indiana locations.

the other day, I went and attempted to get a California toll tag (whatever it's called.  Fast Pass?  Easy Pass?  Trak Pass?  Pass Pass?  who cares.) and their website went full idiot on me.  when I called for customer service, they told me that I would have to go and re-register, starting all over again from the beginning.

now THAT is an impediment to progress.

so I went ahead and got through the forms again, and at the end, the system completely crashed again.  I was too lazy to call them a second time.

you want me to pay electronically?  seriously, don't fuck up the process.

I'm all in favor of an all-electronic road system - but when the support infrastructure borders on a Google Maps level of horse-shittery... I'm going to wonder where your priorities are.  just who is paying you to fail!?

I hope you are enjoying your $860 toll violation tickets.

Quote from: theline on March 15, 2014, 08:55:39 PM
No offense intended. I'm sneering at the folks who are on the tollway frequently and choose not to make life a lot easier (and cheaper, considering the 50% discount for I-Pass users). All transponders used in the US should be compatible. It's ridiculous that they're not.

Of course I realize that some travelers, because they rarely ride the tollways, wouldn't benefit from a transponder, and I bear them no ill will. That's exactly why I think all toll roads should offer an alternate way to pay on the spot, either manned toll booths or ATM-like machines like in many Indiana locations.

EOE and west bypass with will be ECT only that may push ETC use even higher in IL

Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 15, 2014, 10:12:25 PM
the other day, I went and attempted to get a California toll tag (whatever it's called.  Fast Pass?  Easy Pass?  Trak Pass?  Pass Pass?  who cares.) and their website went full idiot on me.  when I called for customer service, they told me that I would have to go and re-register, starting all over again from the beginning.

now THAT is an impediment to progress.

so I went ahead and got through the forms again, and at the end, the system completely crashed again.  I was too lazy to call them a second time.

you want me to pay electronically?  seriously, don't fuck up the process.

I'm all in favor of an all-electronic road system - but when the support infrastructure borders on a Google Maps level of horse-shittery... I'm going to wonder where your priorities are.  just who is paying you to fail!?

I hope you are enjoying your $860 toll violation tickets.

Are you sure you weren't trying to sign up for Obamacare?  :-D (That's a joke folks. No intention to start an off-topic political discussion.)

When I used the Miami area Electronic-Only tollroads, I received a bill for the 3, $1 tolls I went thru, plus a $2.50 surcharge. 

$5.50 total. 

I didn't stop.  I didn't have to fish around for money.  Electronic-Only drivers didn't have to search for their lanes.  I didn't have to search for my lanes.  In other words, none of the issues normally dealt with at a regular toll plaza occurred here, and it was only a $2.50 surcharge.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 16, 2014, 01:13:00 AM
When I used the Miami area Electronic-Only tollroads, I received a bill for the 3, $1 tolls I went thru, plus a $2.50 surcharge. 

$5.50 total. 

I didn't stop.  I didn't have to fish around for money.  Electronic-Only drivers didn't have to search for their lanes.  I didn't have to search for my lanes.  In other words, none of the issues normally dealt with at a regular toll plaza occurred here, and it was only a $2.50 surcharge.

And that's the way it should work.  My experience though, was different.

I occasionally drive in and around Austin. The posted pay-by-mail rate for one exit, distance of 0.8 miles on the toll road, was $0.65. After waiting about 3 weeks without receiving a bill, I called and was told to wait for a bill that would be generated immediately and sent to me. When it arrived about a week after my call, I had a violation fee of $5 plus 2 fees of $1.15 each for the paper bills (both the one I actually received and the initial bill that they claim was sent to me) plus $2 in surcharges.  [I have owned the vehicle in question since 2007 and lived in the same residence since 2000.]

So, a posted a price of $0.65 but an actual bill of $9.95. Helluva surcharge.

I was happy to be an occasional user, but after this experience - never again.

[Edited to be a little less tl;dr]

Quote from: theline on March 15, 2014, 11:36:53 PM
Are you sure you weren't trying to sign up for Obamacare?  :-D (That's a joke folks. No intention to start an off-topic political discussion.)

Beat me to it!  :bigass:

Quote from: bugo on March 15, 2014, 10:04:11 AM
When I was borrowing a family member's car a few months ago, I forgot that I didn't have Pikepass and blew through the Pikepass lane.  The next day I called them and told them what happened and they charged my account.  I soon got a Pikepass for that car so I didn't have to worry about it again.

My wife accidentally blew through a PikePass lane a few years ago when she was passing through Oklahoma. I expected to get a bill in the mail plus a huge surcharge, but nothing ever materialized. Kinda like my one-and-only trip on the Bush Turnpike near Dallas a few years ago. I never got a bill in the mail.

One thing I like about my West Virginia EZ-Pass is that I can list multiple vehicles on one account and can either call or go online to add or delete vehicles. I just got it out of my wife's vehicle yesterday so I can use it next weekend on the CBBT.

Not sure if I will switch to Kentucky's EZ-Pass or stay with WV once the Louisville bridges project is finished. I'm sure they will go with an EZ-Pass-compatible system since Indiana's system is already compatible.

All of which reminds me -- I have two Peace Bridge EZ-Pass units that have never been used. Guess I should send them back and get a refund. I ordered them thinking there would be a much faster turnaround for delivery than what I actually got (thanks to misleading info on their Web site) and ended up driving to Charleston one afternoon to get the WV unit when the Peace Bridge units didn't arrive in time for a trip my wife was taking.

Quote from: Revive 755 on March 15, 2014, 07:40:17 PM
As a former "poor ignorant schlub" who only went near the Illinois Tollways once every five years or less and who was more often was near the non I-Pass compatible Kansas Turnpike, I find your comment offensive.  I don't believe ISTHA has a program like the North Texas Tollway Authority where once in a decade user can just set up an account for a day of two of use (although the NTTA could use an online method of registration for their program).

I don't live in a state with toll facilities, yet I opted to get an EZ-Pass to save me the hassle of sitting in lines at toll booths and paying cash when I do use a toll road that is on that system.

Here's my analysis of the systems I've seen in Canada.

A25 between Montreal and Laval: No booths, all ETC.
Option 1: A25 transponder tag. No interoperability. $2.57/month account fee.
Option 2: Bill by plate. $5.15 surcharge for each trip. The toll is $1.86 non-rush, $2.48 rush.
Result: Since I don't go through there enough to justify the account fee and I consider the surcharge to be gouging, I avoid that bridge like the plague.

A30Express between Valleyfield and Les Cèdres: All booths.
Option 1: A30Express transponder tag. No interoperability. Free as of Feb. 2014. Accepted in all lanes.
Option 2: Credit card. Automated. Accepted in all lanes except those reserved for tags.
Option 3: Cash. Accepted in attended booths.
Result: I use cash almost every time. I find that many people have trouble using automated equipment (of any kind, just not this particular one), and I don't want to be stuck behind one. I almost always carry cash (I work in the same building as my credit union's head office) so that's not too big of an issue. Transponders used to have an account fee, but it was lifted during the last toll hike. Still, the gain is minimal, since there's no high speed lanes.

407 ETR: No booths, all ETC.
Option 1: 407 ETR transponder tag. No interoperability. No account fee, $21.50 annual + $3.40 monthly "transponder lease". No account fee my ass.
Option 2: Bill by plate. $3.95 per-trip surcharge.
Result: The overall toll rates for that highway are pretty damn high and there's no direct freeway access east of Toronto, so I only use it when 401 is a parking lot for good stretch. As I live hundreds of kilometres away from there, having a transponder would be a loss for me, so I reluctantly pay the bill-by-plate surcharge.

In the U.S., there wouldn't be much of a difference for me between keeping the booths and converting to all-ETC. Actually, I might have a bit of an advantage with full ETC, as I have yet to be billed for any of my trips over the Henry Hudson Bridge (the only all-ETC toll I've been through in the U.S. so far), due to my foreign plates. I had considered using the I-495 express lanes around D.C., but the "EZ-Pass ONLY" message on the signs had me think that I could get in trouble. Turns out that I can pay online with a $1.50 surcharge within 5 days via bill-by-plate. I assume that they invoice you with a bigger surcharge afterwards. Or not (again, foreign plates), but I won't risk it.

I do have a P.O. box for shipping purposes in the U.S. but they don't accept regular mail, so I don't know if and how I can get an EZ-Pass.

Now, the reasons why I always carry cash on me: I grew up in the country, and many of the small chip stands (snack bars) and other businesses in such areas only accept cash, often because it's not worth getting broadband Internet access in the building just for the terminal, especially if it's seasonal. Plus, with such a small customer base, it's not worth paying all the fees. So I got used to having cash on me all the time.

Nowadays, I live in a more dense area and I work in downtown Montreal. When I'm waiting to pay in a store, restaurant or cafeteria, I find that the transactions involving cards always take a little while (processing, PIN or signature, etc.) and my cash transaction is handled quickly and effectively. So in my experience, I'm not saving time by using my debit or credit card, but rather wasting time, especially with smaller transactions. As I said earlier in this post, my credit union's head office is in the same building as my workplace, so I can go to the ATM and get back in about five minutes. At home, I just walk down two blocks to get to the credit union branch. The grocery store is on the same street, so I can combine the two in the same trip.

Quote from: realjd on March 15, 2014, 09:32:51 AM

Quote from: NE2 on March 05, 2014, 09:31:30 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 05, 2014, 09:22:46 PM
I've long thought that instead of having a fee for an ETC device, they should simply raise the toll for the cash-payers.

They do, but they also charge for the device because they're huge dicks.
Orlando did just fine for many years with not charging.

SunPass stickers though are practically free. They cost $5 but come with a $5 toll credit.

At least we don't have a monthly "service" fee like most states.

Interestingly, the SunPass website doesn't mention that $5 toll credit anywhere. I know I got that credit when I bought my SunPass Mini back in 2011, and at the time it was prominently mentioned on their website. You had to use the $5 credit within a certain amount of time, I think 30 days from creating your account, or you forfeited it. Maybe they've discontinued that part of the program.

Regarding monthly fees, the Virginia General Assembly passed a bill (SB156) that provides, quote, "No later than September 1, 2014, the Department of Transportation shall develop and implement a plan to eliminate the maintenance fees associated with electronic toll collection transponders." The governor has said he will sign it. Of course, that doesn't mean the current fee for new users is going away any time soon. (Not all of us pay the fees because they grandfathered in existing fee-free transponders.) I would still have an E-ZPass even if I had to pay the fee. The benefit is worth it. I would not have a SunPass if I had to pay, however, because for me two trips a year to Florida is not enough toll-road usage to justify a monthly fee.

Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on March 17, 2014, 11:45:52 AM
I do have a P.O. box for shipping purposes in the U.S. but they don't accept regular mail, so I don't know if and how I can get an EZ-Pass.

You could ask the Thousand Islands Bridge Authority when they start accepting E-ZPass later this year (they have to rebuild the booths first though, and that won't start until around October), especially since the Canadian span is entirely within Ontario.

They could at least sell Sunpass in the airports. Of course that would deprive the rental companies from charging $35.00 for a two way trip from Miami to the Keys.

Quote from: US81 on March 16, 2014, 10:51:29 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 16, 2014, 01:13:00 AM
When I used the Miami area Electronic-Only tollroads, I received a bill for the 3, $1 tolls I went thru, plus a $2.50 surcharge. 

$5.50 total. 

I didn't stop.  I didn't have to fish around for money.  Electronic-Only drivers didn't have to search for their lanes.  I didn't have to search for my lanes.  In other words, none of the issues normally dealt with at a regular toll plaza occurred here, and it was only a $2.50 surcharge.

And that's the way it should work.  My experience though, was different...I was happy to be an occasional user, but after this experience - never again.

So you've used it before, and had one bad experience?

If that was the case, I'd been in a bubble.  Nearly everyone has had bad experiences with restaurants, stores, phones, credit cards, internet service, cable, etc, etc, etc.  Phone calls are made, and the problem is corrected.

If anyone says that one bad experience ruined the entire universe of the product everywhere, that's being a bit dramatic.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2014, 08:13:44 AM
Phone calls are made, and the problem is corrected.

Where did he say the problem was corrected?

Quote from: NE2 on March 18, 2014, 08:49:07 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2014, 08:13:44 AM
Phone calls are made, and the problem is corrected.

Where did he say the problem was corrected?

He never said he made a phone call either.  But if he did, no doubt the problem could have been corrected.  He simply wrote off the entire electronic toll industry because of one error.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2014, 08:59:09 AM
But if he did, no doubt the problem could have been corrected.

I have my doubts it would have been, and suspect you work as an electronic toll industry shill.

Quote from: NE2 on March 18, 2014, 09:06:51 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2014, 08:59:09 AM
But if he did, no doubt the problem could have been corrected.

I have my doubts it would have been, and suspect you work as an electronic toll industry shill.

I've been charged extra at the Delaware Memorial Bridge...Truck charge rather than a normal car charge.  Made the necessary phone call; provided the necessary information.  Got the expected credit.

I've heard horror stories from Texas where they didn't send out the bill and when that person drove back to Texas, they were arrested and taken to jail for toll evasion.  So until Pikepass works in Texas, I'll be avoiding their toll roads.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2014, 08:59:09 AM

Quote from: NE2 on March 18, 2014, 08:49:07 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2014, 08:13:44 AM
Phone calls are made, and the problem is corrected.

Where did he say the problem was corrected?

He never said he made a phone call either.  But if he did, no doubt the problem could have been corrected.  He simply wrote off the entire electronic toll industry because of one error.

Quote from: NE2 on March 18, 2014, 09:06:51 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2014, 08:59:09 AM
But if he did, no doubt the problem could have been corrected.

I have my doubts it would have been, and suspect you work as an electronic toll industry shill.

For the sake of clarity, another phone call was made. Not only was the error not corrected, I was threatened with being turned over to the court for non-payment which would have added $350 (plus who knows what other administrative fees and surcharges they "forgot" to mention) to the bill. It was not the first such occurrence, it was the most recent of three. And the last.

Another point: the access roads along the Austin area toll roads are intermittent. In several places along the one-way access roads, hidden by terrain, the access road ends forcing drivers onto the toll road. Many people have been caught in these 'traps' but I know of signage on only one to date.

Any more questions?

To point out the obvious, the difference between toll roads and restaurants is that restaurants don't add hundreds of dollars of extra fees and threaten to take you to court.  Also, a restaurant doesn't have the backing of the state and benefit from the presumption that their claims in court are correct.  I fully understand avoiding pay by mail facilities.  In fact, if anyone were to ask me, I'd recommend it.  If you're driving on the toll roads, get a tag.  If you think your use is too infrequent to warrant a tag, just give up that infrequent use.  Your one-time use of the road probably isn't worth the higher tolls and billing fees and potential hassle and extra expense when they send you the bill and it gets "lost in the mail."

speaking of toll failures - I just got in the mail my notice of violation for failing to pay the Golden Gate Bridge toll.

I crossed on 2/2/2014.  I promptly went ahead and paid on 2/5/2014, and was emailed a receipt saying that my card would be charged for all crossings between 2/1/2014 and 2/15/2014 (the way they make you select a range is a bit weird but I suppose it works for tourists who will want to cross the bridge 6-7 times in a week and never again).

turns out, they never charged my card.  and then had the sheer ballsage to turn me into a violator for failing to pay.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dawnofthedragons.com%2Fforums%2Fforums%2Fattachment.php%3Fattachmentid%3D4896%26amp%3Bd%3D1387837578&hash=11ea2c37aa8c567841b0901d1874bdd25ff8f02a)

I went ahead and sent them a check for $31 ($6 + $25 fine), and am now patiently waiting the $860 file, and for my car to be towed and thrown off their stupid little orange bridge.

To continue with an opposing viewpoint, people have complained for years for being shortchanged by a toll collector. 

With any method of payment (electronic, in-person, credit card, goat cheese), the majority will never experience a problem.  A few will.  There isn't anything out there that is problem-free.

Quote from: US81 on March 18, 2014, 11:44:23 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2014, 08:59:09 AM

Quote from: NE2 on March 18, 2014, 08:49:07 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2014, 08:13:44 AM
Phone calls are made, and the problem is corrected.

Where did he say the problem was corrected?

He never said he made a phone call either.  But if he did, no doubt the problem could have been corrected.  He simply wrote off the entire electronic toll industry because of one error.

Quote from: NE2 on March 18, 2014, 09:06:51 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2014, 08:59:09 AM
But if he did, no doubt the problem could have been corrected.

I have my doubts it would have been, and suspect you work as an electronic toll industry shill.

For the sake of clarity, another phone call was made. Not only was the error not corrected, I was threatened with being turned over to the court for non-payment which would have added $350 (plus who knows what other administrative fees and surcharges they "forgot" to mention) to the bill. It was not the first such occurrence, it was the most recent of three. And the last.

Another point: the access roads along the Austin area toll roads are intermittent. In several places along the one-way access roads, hidden by terrain, the access road ends forcing drivers onto the toll road. Many people have been caught in these 'traps' but I know of signage on only one to date.

Any more questions?

GOP "leadership" at its finest.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2014, 01:49:01 PM
To continue with an opposing viewpoint, people have complained for years for being shortchanged by a toll collector. 

With any method of payment (electronic, in-person, credit card, goat cheese), the majority will never experience a problem.  A few will.  There isn't anything out there that is problem-free.

I don't disagree. But if I'm at a toll booth and get shortchanged, my loss is limited to the amount of cash that changed hands. And, as you said above, a phone call or two should have been sufficient to correct each problem, but instead penalties were added after each call. 

As I said upthread, I'm not against electronic tolling per se  - nor have I 'written off the entire electronic tolling industry.' I do expect the first bill to be what the TxTag website states: $1.80, not $9.95. http://www.txtag.org/faqs_bills.php

I am against the abusive practices. I think there should be some small protections for the consumer: maybe there should be a requirement to send a certified letter before submitting to a collection agency, and another before submitting to the court.  Maybe there should be some limitation on the exponential growth of the fines and fees. 

Wxfree made a good post above that I can't add much to, so I'll just +1 and say "Well-said, wxfree."

^^
I don't know how Texas runs things, but the Illinois State Toll Highway Authority (ISTHA) gives you 7 days to pay online.  All you need to do is enter your plate and toll plaza you went through.  If paid within 7 days, it's just the cash rate, no fines or penalties.

Quote from: bugo on March 18, 2014, 03:56:15 PM

Quote from: US81 on March 18, 2014, 11:44:23 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2014, 08:59:09 AM

Quote from: NE2 on March 18, 2014, 08:49:07 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2014, 08:13:44 AM
Phone calls are made, and the problem is corrected.

Where did he say the problem was corrected?

He never said he made a phone call either.  But if he did, no doubt the problem could have been corrected.  He simply wrote off the entire electronic toll industry because of one error.

Quote from: NE2 on March 18, 2014, 09:06:51 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2014, 08:59:09 AM
But if he did, no doubt the problem could have been corrected.

I have my doubts it would have been, and suspect you work as an electronic toll industry shill.

For the sake of clarity, another phone call was made. Not only was the error not corrected, I was threatened with being turned over to the court for non-payment which would have added $350 (plus who knows what other administrative fees and surcharges they "forgot" to mention) to the bill. It was not the first such occurrence, it was the most recent of three. And the last.

Another point: the access roads along the Austin area toll roads are intermittent. In several places along the one-way access roads, hidden by terrain, the access road ends forcing drivers onto the toll road. Many people have been caught in these 'traps' but I know of signage on only one to date.

Any more questions?

Gratuitous political comment deleted.

Yeah, like the governor personally designed the toll roads and the access points. Besides, I can think of at least one Democrat who was governor of Texas during the construction of the toll roads, that being Ma Richards. There are probably others but I'm not going to look them up.

Quote from: hbelkins on March 18, 2014, 08:54:05 PM

Quote from: bugo on March 18, 2014, 03:56:15 PM

Quote from: US81 on March 18, 2014, 11:44:23 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2014, 08:59:09 AM

Quote from: NE2 on March 18, 2014, 08:49:07 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2014, 08:13:44 AM
Phone calls are made, and the problem is corrected.

Where did he say the problem was corrected?

He never said he made a phone call either.  But if he did, no doubt the problem could have been corrected.  He simply wrote off the entire electronic toll industry because of one error.

Quote from: NE2 on March 18, 2014, 09:06:51 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2014, 08:59:09 AM
But if he did, no doubt the problem could have been corrected.

I have my doubts it would have been, and suspect you work as an electronic toll industry shill.

For the sake of clarity, another phone call was made. Not only was the error not corrected, I was threatened with being turned over to the court for non-payment which would have added $350 (plus who knows what other administrative fees and surcharges they "forgot" to mention) to the bill. It was not the first such occurrence, it was the most recent of three. And the last.

Another point: the access roads along the Austin area toll roads are intermittent. In several places along the one-way access roads, hidden by terrain, the access road ends forcing drivers onto the toll road. Many people have been caught in these 'traps' but I know of signage on only one to date.

Any more questions?

Gratuitous political comment deleted.

Yeah, like the governor personally designed the toll roads and the access points.

For the record, I think they're all crooks, but this immediately reminds me of Chris Christie deflecting in December by sarcastically saying something to the effect of, "Yeah, I went out there and moved the cones myself."   

All roads are riddled with political backstory, and this fact doesn't discriminate along party lines.

Quote from: wxfree on March 18, 2014, 12:28:01 PMTo point out the obvious, the difference between toll roads and restaurants is that restaurants don't add hundreds of dollars of extra fees and threaten to take you to court.  Also, a restaurant doesn't have the backing of the state and benefit from the presumption that their claims in court are correct.  I fully understand avoiding pay by mail facilities.  In fact, if anyone were to ask me, I'd recommend it.  If you're driving on the toll roads, get a tag.  If you think your use is too infrequent to warrant a tag, just give up that infrequent use.  Your one-time use of the road probably isn't worth the higher tolls and billing fees and potential hassle and extra expense when they send you the bill and it gets "lost in the mail."

Disagree. If I'm on a 800-mile road trip headed for vacation and want to make it to my destination by the end of the day, I want to save every minute I can. My friends and I have paid a lot in tolls because of that, and want to still be able to do that. That's one of my main arguments for keeping at least a few booths.

As I said earlier, getting a tag would be a huge pain in the ass for us, as we have no address in the U.S.

I'm surprised no one has raised the comparison to payphones in this discussion. 10 years ago or so, payphones were still  common, and many people rejected the pressure to purchase a cell phone. Now, most people have cell phones, there is not much debate as to whether they are an appropriate standard, and payphones have all but vanished.

So there is a dwindling and probably doomed cash option for making a phone call.

Where I have noticed it — and I don't pay them a lot of attention — payphone prices seem to be significantly higher than they once were. They have outpaced inflation for sure.  Meanwhile, if you remove all the superfluous services like data and text messaging from the equation, the cost of simple telephoning seems to be overall cheaper than it was a generation ago.  (I wonder how many people under 30 have been yelled at for being too slow to the phone when it was a long-distance call.)

In the case of telephones, are we worse off without the cash means to use a critical public network?  (I do realize telephone networks are nominally private, but they are regulated in such a way as to maintain public access to them to a sufficient extent, I think, to make that difference immaterial.)  If not, why would it be different for roads?

I remember when I moved to Savannah in July 1996 that pay phones in Mena were 10 cents.  When I moved back in December of that same year, the pay phones were 25 cents. 

Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 19, 2014, 12:07:32 PMIn the case of telephones, are we worse off without the cash means to use a critical public network?  (I do realize telephone networks are nominally private, but they are regulated in such a way as to maintain public access to them to a sufficient extent, I think, to make that difference immaterial.)  If not, why would it be different for roads?

It is true that both roads and telephones serve a common-carrier function.  What I think this analogy overlooks, however, is the extent of regulation.  I am less sure of the position for cellular telephony (I suspect regulation hasn't quite caught up, as is demonstrated by roaming fees), but the copper-wire public switched telephone network has been regulated for close to a century and the companies that operate it have undergone major structural changes as a result of antitrust judgments.

In contradistinction, toll roads--particularly newer for-profit toll roads--have very little regulation.  Older public-authority toll roads are generally operated by gubernatorially appointed boards which are subject to supervision by state legislatures, so although there is no mechanism for review and approval of rates by independent bodies charged with the safeguarding of the public interest, there is still some oversight that encourages disciplined and fair behavior with regard to toll collection.  Newer toll roads tend to have their rate-setting parameters fixed by contract with little provision for independent oversight, and that opens the door to abuses such as excessive surcharges for pay-by-mail, failure to provide unfamiliar motorists with adequate opportunity to escape toll liability, fraudulent late payment fees, etc.  It is no coincidence that the most serious consumer complaints in this thread have been generated by newer toll roads that don't adhere to the established public-authority model.  Public-authority toll roads are perfectly capable of nickeling-and-diming their customers to death with transponder fees and the like, but they generally do so in a transparent way.

It strikes me that if we are going to go any further down the rabbit hole of using toll roads for new capital construction, we need a toll payers' bill of rights that keeps toll operators' feet to the fire on consumer-service issues.  I'd suggest, at minimum, the following:

*  No surcharges for pay-by-mail, payment over the Internet, or any other payment method that involves billing the customer or collecting money volunteered by the customer.

*  No transponder fees.

*  No late payment fees or fines for nonpayment unless a reasonable opportunity for voluntary payment has elapsed and the toll operator has sent the driver a bill by registered mail, return receipt requested, and the receipt that shows the driver's signature can be presented in court; compulsory waiver of any assessed late payment fees or fines when the driver can prove a good-faith effort to pay.

*  No requirement to live in a particular locale to have a transponder; however, any toll operator can require a deposit from an account holder living outside its designated primary service area.

*  Independent review by a public utility commission of all rates, fees, deposit requirements, etc. involving financial transactions between the consumer and the toll operator, the PUC being required to hold at least one public hearing before approving rate changes.

*  No fees or differential rates for using foreign transponders on interoperable systems.

*  Cash rates no greater than electronic rates unless show-up-and-go transponders are available to the public on the facility itself and the availability is clearly indicated on signs.  If these conditions are met, cash and pay-by-mail rates capped at 150% of electronic rates on a mileage basis, and Internet payment rates capped at 100% of electronic rates.

Cell phones are a lot more interoperable than transponders though.  A GSM cell phone is usable all over the world (and a CDMA phone all over North America), albeit with expensive international roaming.  Transponders are not.  At present, NO transponder can be used across state lines outside of the E-ZPass zone.  It is impossible (the exception proving the rule is SunPass/QuckPass interoperability, but it's debatable because North Carolina is in the E-ZPass zone).  A Texas transponder is a paperweight outside of Texas.  Ditto for California.  Some places even have multiple transponders within a state/province (Indiana and Quebec come to mind with examples that are so egregious that I would call them criminal; Ontario gets an honorable mention since E-ZPass will be on all the major NY crossings at the end of the year, and with the Thousand Islands Bridge Authority joining, it will be possible to make an E-ZPass transaction without leaving Canada, but there are also currency considerations here; perhaps 407 will join if the IAG decides to allow transactions in Canadian dollars).

Remember when you had to find an ATM that accepted your particular card and it was never a given? 

All details of an immature technology.  Transponders are going to make as much sense as landlines (and toll booths) by the time this is all sorted out.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 19, 2014, 04:15:12 PMAll details of an immature technology.  Transponders are going to make as much sense as landlines (and toll booths) by the time this is all sorted out.

The problem is that noplace currently has technology at that level of maturity, and when it is finally developed, it will be in just one place, and will have to diffuse to others over the next 10-15 years, following a logistic curve (cf. Griliches and hybrid corn).  The abuses are now.

Quote from: vdeane on March 19, 2014, 02:43:14 PMSome places even have multiple transponders within a state/province (Indiana and Quebec come to mind with examples that are so egregious that I would call them criminal.

Where in Indiana is there a transponder that's not EZ-Pass compatible?

Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 19, 2014, 04:15:12 PM
Remember when you had to find an ATM that accepted your particular card and it was never a given?

You're still stuck with your own bank if you don't want to pay transaction fees.

Quote from: hbelkins on March 19, 2014, 08:43:00 PM

Quote from: vdeane on March 19, 2014, 02:43:14 PMSome places even have multiple transponders within a state/province (Indiana and Quebec come to mind with examples that are so egregious that I would call them criminal.

Where in Indiana is there a transponder that's not EZ-Pass compatible?

Wabash Bridge.  They have their own pass for the bridge only that's not interoperable with anything.  It's illegal to use the bridge without a pass.

Quote from: vdeane on March 19, 2014, 09:10:25 PM

Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 19, 2014, 04:15:12 PM
Remember when you had to find an ATM that accepted your particular card and it was never a given?

You're still stuck with your own bank if you don't want to pay transaction fees.

You're talking about a choice. I'm talking about no choice (and often no access to money).

Quote from: vdeane on March 19, 2014, 09:10:25 PM

Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 19, 2014, 04:15:12 PM
Remember when you had to find an ATM that accepted your particular card and it was never a given?

You're still stuck with your own bank if you don't want to pay transaction fees.

....

That depends on your bank. One of the banks we use refunds transaction fees charged by other banks (and charges you no fee of its own when you use someone else's ATM). So we always make sure to take that bank's ATM card with us when we travel!

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 20, 2014, 07:48:12 AM

Quote from: vdeane on March 19, 2014, 09:10:25 PM

Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 19, 2014, 04:15:12 PM
Remember when you had to find an ATM that accepted your particular card and it was never a given?

You're still stuck with your own bank if you don't want to pay transaction fees.

....

That depends on your bank. One of the banks we use refunds transaction fees charged by other banks (and charges you no fee of its own when you use someone else's ATM). So we always make sure to take that bank's ATM card with us when we travel!

I think we're onto something here — free-market private transponder companies, ones that work with multiple (or all) systems. 

Shop around for the best deal.  Perhaps your local provider will refund service charges from other networks.  Or partner with Six Flags and give you half off the tolls when you buy ahead.

Honestly, I can't believe nobody's trying this.

It depends on your particular bank account as well.  At my bank, my account requires a small minimum balance to remain maintenance fee-free, but I get dinged for out-of-network ATM fees.  I could choose an account where I have to maintain a larger balance to waive all ATM fees. 

30 years ago, when ATMs were just beginning to sprout up, it was probably one of the early beginnings to the modern era of getting something on demand (aside from using a check cashing company).  Prior to that, if the bank was closed, you were out of luck.  And if you wanted cash, you had to go to the ATM at your own bank.  It was a gradual process before you could get cash at any ATM within the state, then within the country, then within the world, then private ATMs started sprouting up.  Somewhere along that line, you could get cash back by using a debit card at stores as well.  It didn't happen overnight.

Inter-operatability of toll transponders is probably much sooner than a decade out.  We're probably looking at a few years at most.

I think the biggest barrier to inter-operability is not so much the technology as it is certain aspects of certain toll agencies' operations. The best such example, in my mind, is the insistence on some of the E-ZPass member agencies of continuing to operate the gate arms in the converted toll plaza lanes even when said lanes are in "E-ZPass Only" operation. (Some members, such as the Dulles Greenway, will sometimes lock the gate arm in the "up" position during "E-ZPass Only" operation. Others don't.) This poses the practical problem that incompatible transponders, and vehicles with no transponders, will not trigger the gate arm to rise. It wouldn't be all that difficult, as a technical matter, to lock the gate arm in the "up" position and then use photo enforcement (assuming issues with out-of-state plate lookup were resolved, of course), so it's more an issue of agency stubbornness.

I don't know how it works at most toll plazas when someone without a transponder drives into an ETC-only lane with an operating gate arm. That has happened to me once, at the Rickenbacker Causeway in Miami (the one that goes to Key Biscayne) when they were not a SunPass member, and I was chagrined that it happened at all. Problem was twofold–(1) other agencies in Florida had other names for their ETC systems yet accepted SunPass such that I thought the Rickenbacker would be the same and (2) the only sign saying "No SunPass" was an 8.5-by-11-inch piece of paper once you were already in that lane, and in my case, I couldn't back up because someone was behind me. Eventually the arm went up. I have no idea whether someone in the nearby office triggered it or whether the toll lane itself had some kind of equipment that will trigger it if you wait too long. Either way, I never got a bill. But also either way, that sort of thing is clearly not a viable option for more heavily-trafficked toll plazas (I'm thinking of, for instance, the Verrazano Bridge or the Jersey Turnpike). It simply slows things down way too much if every vehicle with no transponder causes a delay like that.

BTW, to a limited degree some people already do "shop around for the best deal" when it comes to E-ZPass. It's not unusual for people to get the device from another state that doesn't charge a monthly fee or that requires a lower standing balance or the like. (Then, at the other extreme, you have forum member "mtantillo," who has noted he has three E-ZPass transponders from different agencies so as to avail himself of various toll discounts.) I know this isn't quite the same thing as what Pete from Boston is suggesting. But it's a step, anyway.

E-ZPass systems with gate arms often have no form of camera enforcement.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 20, 2014, 08:32:27 AM

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 20, 2014, 07:48:12 AM

Quote from: vdeane on March 19, 2014, 09:10:25 PM

Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 19, 2014, 04:15:12 PM
Remember when you had to find an ATM that accepted your particular card and it was never a given?

You're still stuck with your own bank if you don't want to pay transaction fees.

....

That depends on your bank. One of the banks we use refunds transaction fees charged by other banks (and charges you no fee of its own when you use someone else's ATM). So we always make sure to take that bank's ATM card with us when we travel!

I think we're onto something here — free-market private transponder companies, ones that work with multiple (or all) systems. 

Shop around for the best deal.  Perhaps your local provider will refund service charges from other networks.  Or partner with Six Flags and give you half off the tolls when you buy ahead.

Honestly, I can't believe nobody's trying this.

Presumably a private transponder company would have an even higher monthly fee (I'm actually lucky enough to live in a state with no transponder fees, so that would be a huge negative) or a large fee assessed every time the transponder is used (a la PlatePass on rental cars).  Also, all transponders are pre-pay now.  There is no such thing as a pay-as-you-go transponder.

Quote from: vdeane on March 20, 2014, 05:46:37 PM
E-ZPass systems with gate arms often have no form of camera enforcement.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 20, 2014, 08:32:27 AM

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 20, 2014, 07:48:12 AM

Quote from: vdeane on March 19, 2014, 09:10:25 PM

Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 19, 2014, 04:15:12 PM
Remember when you had to find an ATM that accepted your particular card and it was never a given?

You're still stuck with your own bank if you don't want to pay transaction fees.

....

That depends on your bank. One of the banks we use refunds transaction fees charged by other banks (and charges you no fee of its own when you use someone else's ATM). So we always make sure to take that bank's ATM card with us when we travel!

I think we're onto something here — free-market private transponder companies, ones that work with multiple (or all) systems. 

Shop around for the best deal.  Perhaps your local provider will refund service charges from other networks.  Or partner with Six Flags and give you half off the tolls when you buy ahead.

Honestly, I can't believe nobody's trying this.

Presumably a private transponder company would have an even higher monthly fee (I'm actually lucky enough to live in a state with no transponder fees, so that would be a huge negative) or a large fee assessed every time the transponder is used (a la PlatePass on rental cars).  Also, all transponders are pre-pay now.  There is no such thing as a pay-as-you-go transponder.

But the scenario I propose would mean that providers would have incentive to make theirs most interoperable.  This was the case with cell phone service and range of coverage.  Greater utility would certainly merit a fee to many.  Multiple players and price-lowering competition could easily result.

I suggest this because local agencies are self-interested fiefdoms that don't seem to have a lot of incentive to expand the useful range of their services.  Private enterprise would leap at the chance to develop this sort of thing.  However, given the number of jurisdictions to negotiate service with, this would either a) require a federal mandate, b) require significant incentives for the agencies, or c) potentially take a long time to implement. 

From a business standpoint, thought, I think models exist for rolling this sort of thing out, if anyone ever chooses to do so.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 20, 2014, 06:30:45 PM
....

I suggest this because local agencies are self-interested fiefdoms that don't seem to have a lot of incentive to expand the useful range of their services. ....

Absolutely true on "self-interested fiefdoms." Virginia's DOT refused to join E-ZPass for several years because they said the majority of trips on Virginia's toll roads are by in-state drivers, so there would allegedly be "no benefit" to interoperability, never mind the large numbers of Virginians who regularly travel out of state through the E-ZPass zone. After Mark Warner was sworn in as governor back in 2002, he ordered VDOT to re-assess that and noted that he did "not understand the previous administration's position on this issue." We had E-ZPass interoperability within a short time, followed by full E-ZPass branding a few years later.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 19, 2014, 04:15:12 PM

Remember when you had to find an ATM that accepted your particular card and it was never a given? 

That's still the case using a US ATM card overseas. Your card have the PLUS logo on the back but the foreign ATM only takes Cirrus or STAR? No money for you.

I am so lost that I'd really appreciate an "unsubscribe" button.

Quote from: jake on March 20, 2014, 10:09:49 PM
I am so lost that I'd really appreciate an "unsubscribe" button.

Do you mean it keeps popping up in "new replies"? What I do for some is open it and quickly go back one page. (3 fingers to the left, since I use a Mac.)

Quote from: 1 on March 20, 2014, 10:12:05 PM

Quote from: jake on March 20, 2014, 10:09:49 PM
I am so lost that I'd really appreciate an "unsubscribe" button.

Do you mean it keeps popping up in "new replies"? What I do for some is open it and quickly go back one page. (3 fingers to the left, since I use a Mac.)

Yeah, exactly. On Chrome, the back button just loads a cached version of the page you were just on so it becomes a "click-back-refresh" sequence. It works but it's annoying.

If agencies would allow us to get transponders without paying recurring fees for the "privilege" of having them, or have some kind of camera enforcement that doesn't consider an unregistered driver a violation... you know, for those of us from out of town... then I'd be perfectly fine with rolling through an electronic toll road without having to stop when I'm on one of my road trips.

Otherwise, keep the booths.

I live in Georgia so the only time I'm on toll roads is when I'm travelling.  I use SunPass in Florida because it costs me nothing to keep it and I enjoy not having to stop on the turnpike there.  However, I've yet to find an E-Z Pass that makes sense to keep for use only once or twice a year, so when I drive up north I pretty much have to pay cash.  I'd hate to have to stop driving those roads at all.

I think the agencies need to allocate some of the tremendous savings from the elimination of toll booths to covering whatever costs are presently covered by the recurring fees.  It's a no-brainer since each new transponder user means more savings for the agency.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 21, 2014, 02:35:20 PM
I think the agencies need to allocate some of the tremendous savings from the elimination of toll booths to covering whatever costs are presently covered by the recurring fees.  It's a no-brainer since each new transponder user means more savings for the agency.

AFAIK, in nearly all cases the recurring transponder fees are set based on laws passed by the state legislatures, which control the fees (or lack thereof) the toll road agency can charge.  For example, New Hampshire has a state law that requires a person getting a transponder (either a new applicant or a renewal) to pay a fee not less than the agency's cost from the manufacturer for the transponder.  That is why, several years ago, NH's fee went from from $5.00 for a transponder to $32.50.

Massachusetts used to charge $28.75, but now charges nothing for a transponder - this change was made after the MassDOT merger.  Plus there's a big push in Massachusetts right now to get people to use transponders.  This is being driven (no pun intended) by the pending conversion of the Tobin Bridge to all-electronic tolling, and the eventual conversion of the Massachusetts Turnpike and other Boston Harbor crossings to all AET as well.

Disclaimer - after almost nine years of reliable service, the battery in my original New Hampshire E-ZPass transponder finally failed.   As I have less business in New Hampshire than I did years ago (and thus don't need the NH discount as much), I opted for a new Massachusetts transponder instead.

^^ Interesting.  ISTHA sent out a letter 10 years after I got the transponder stating that I had to replace it.  Replacement was easy.  I just followed the letter and brought it and my old transponder to a Jewel-Osco.  It was replaced for free there and the new one activated immediately.  No battery failure.

I'm curious, what happens when the battery dies?  Do you just wait for your first violation and request a new transponder?  What happens if this occurs on a facility with gate arms?

Quote from: vdeane on March 21, 2014, 04:36:01 PM
I'm curious, what happens when the battery dies?  Do you just wait for your first violation and request a new transponder?  What happens if this occurs on a facility with gate arms?

No idea on the gate arms.  I haven't seen one on an ISTHA road outside a manual lane in a long time.  Then, I suspect you'd get instant help from the attendant on-duty.  The Indiana Toll Road still has the gate arms, but they have attendants on-duty at the plazas as well.  I suspect you'd have to honk your horn and get help.

Quote from: roadman on March 21, 2014, 03:02:43 PM
AFAIK, in nearly all cases the recurring transponder fees are set based on laws passed by the state legislatures, which control the fees (or lack thereof) the toll road agency can charge.  For example, New Hampshire has a state law that requires a person getting a transponder (either a new applicant or a renewal) to pay a fee not less than the agency's cost from the manufacturer for the transponder.  That is why, several years ago, NH's fee went from from $5.00 for a transponder to $32.50.

In California, where all tolling agencies must use FasTrak for ETC, monthly fees will vary from agency to agency.  Down in Southern California, just about all of the tolling agencies charge a minimum monthly fee that is offset by tolls charged to the account.  Up in Northern California, there's only one tolling authority (Bay Area Toll Authority) and they have NO monthly minimums or maintenance fees.  The only way you'd incur a fee would be if the majority of toll activity came from toll facilities in southern California.

Quote from: vdeane on March 21, 2014, 04:36:01 PM
I'm curious, what happens when the battery dies?  Do you just wait for your first violation and request a new transponder?  What happens if this occurs on a facility with gate arms?

Here in FL the old battery ones beep. You waited until it no longer beeped running through a toll booth. It was never a violation though because you have your license plate tied to your SunPass account. They just look up your tag and bill your account.

We don't have gate arms on electronic toll lanes here so I couldn't tell you what happens in that case.

Quote from: Brandon on March 21, 2014, 03:35:44 PM
^^ Interesting.  ISTHA sent out a letter 10 years after I got the transponder stating that I had to replace it.  Replacement was easy.  I just followed the letter and brought it and my old transponder to a Jewel-Osco.  It was replaced for free there and the new one activated immediately.  No battery failure.

Trading transponders is not so easy for me, since I live in South Bend, far from a Jewel-Osco. I haven't figured out what to do about it yet. The ISTHA web site is no help. Maybe I'll call.

Quote from: theline on March 21, 2014, 07:03:37 PM

Quote from: Brandon on March 21, 2014, 03:35:44 PM
^^ Interesting.  ISTHA sent out a letter 10 years after I got the transponder stating that I had to replace it.  Replacement was easy.  I just followed the letter and brought it and my old transponder to a Jewel-Osco.  It was replaced for free there and the new one activated immediately.  No battery failure.

Trading transponders is not so easy for me, since I live in South Bend, far from a Jewel-Osco. I haven't figured out what to do about it yet. The ISTHA web site is no help. Maybe I'll call.

There's one in Chesterton, near I-94 and IN-49.

^^ Thanks for pointing that out. Actually, that's the place I purchased the transponder a few years ago. I'd rather not make the trip for just that purpose. I'll probably just figure out some reason to visit Porter County.

Pikepass uses stickers with tiny passive RFID chips in them.  No batteries are necessary.  I find it strange that backwards Oklahoma has more modern technology than the east coast.

Quote from: mrsman on March 05, 2014, 05:35:12 PM
In my view, until there is a nationwide standard transponder that is also not subject to a monthly fee, cash should always be a "reasonable" option.

For a toll road, all through lanes should be for transponders.  Those paying by some other means should exit to a toll booth, similar to the way it is done in Florida.

Now, by "reasonable", I'm not saying that every crossing needs to have a manned toll booth.  For example, if NYC ever tolls the East River crossings, those crossings should be toll-booth free and drivers who want to pay cash should be directed to the Battery and Midtown Tunnels.  Similarly with toll roads, there could be more and more EZ-Pass only exits, so long as mainline tollbooths and major exits provide a cash option.

To apply my own criteria to what is happening in Maryland [pilot project to remover toll booths on the Hatem Bridge, pilot project prohibited by legislation], I would say that the Hatem Bridge should be EZ-Pass only, because I-95 is a relatively close cash alternate.  The Baltimore Harbor Tunnel can also be EZ-Pass only because the Fort McHenry tunnel provides a relatively close cash alternate [but the reverse is not true, because there are many exits that are skipped along I-895 so if cash were not allowed on I-95, there would be a lot of backtracking for cash customers on I-95].

My rule would not apply to HOT or toll-express lanes since the free lanes are close and can provide a non-EZPass option for travel.

Ideally, I would prefer all toll crossings to be ORT.  Let's just make it fair to occasional travelers by not charging them more than a fair toll.  Transponders without monthly fees to encourage occasional travelers to acquire transponders.  A nationwide standard of transponders so that we have a more uniform system.  And a reasonable surcharge, capped at 25% of the toll, for those who drive by without a transponder.  But until, these elements are met, there should be a reasonable cash option for travel.

Quote from: mrsman on March 23, 2014, 01:22:13 PM
A nationwide standard of transponders so that we have a more uniform system.  And a reasonable surcharge, capped at 25% of the toll, for those who drive by without a transponder.  But until, these elements are met, there should be a reasonable cash option for travel.

Florida has 3 options:

• SunPass Transponder: discount on stated tolls
• SunPass Toll-by-plate: register your license plate with SunPass.com and pay the stated toll
• Toll-by-plate: the registered owner of the car is sent an invoice from FDOT once a month for all toll activity (stated tolls), plus a $2.50 monthly administrative fee

For MDX roads, if you don't have a SunPass account, they invoice you for all of the tolls with a 25c - 30c per toll fee, plus a $3 monthly administrative fee.

If you don't register for a SunPass account, neither of the invoiced toll-by-plate programs seem particularly bad.

The gap between "yes" and "no" is closing! Keep going!

Quote from: 1 on March 24, 2014, 03:24:52 PM
The gap between "yes" and "no" is closing! Keep going!

I'm kind of absolutist about having a way to pay directly, but it needn't be with a physical toll booth.  NTTA's Zip-Pass, mentioned above, is good for those who don't want to pay rental company fees or don't want to risk a missed bill.  Since nearly everyone has or can easily get a credit or debit card, if an arrangement like that is set up, I'd support all-electronic toll collection.

https://www.ntta.org/custinfo/rentalout-of-state/Pages/default.aspx (https://www.ntta.org/custinfo/rentalout-of-state/Pages/default.aspx)

Quote from: realjd on March 24, 2014, 11:04:37 AM

Quote from: mrsman on March 23, 2014, 01:22:13 PM
A nationwide standard of transponders so that we have a more uniform system.  And a reasonable surcharge, capped at 25% of the toll, for those who drive by without a transponder.  But until, these elements are met, there should be a reasonable cash option for travel.

Florida has 3 options:

• SunPass Transponder: discount on stated tolls
• SunPass Toll-by-plate: register your license plate with SunPass.com and pay the stated toll
• Toll-by-plate: the registered owner of the car is sent an invoice from FDOT once a month for all toll activity (stated tolls), plus a $2.50 monthly administrative fee

For MDX roads, if you don't have a SunPass account, they invoice you for all of the tolls with a 25c - 30c per toll fee, plus a $3 monthly administrative fee.

If you don't register for a SunPass account, neither of the invoiced toll-by-plate programs seem particularly bad.

I don't know all the details but the way you describe Sun Pass seems pretty fair to me.  For an infrequent user, if all they have to pay is the stated toll plus $2.50 per month, only for the months that they are using the toll booth, then that is a fair tolling system and it is OK to get rid of the cash option.

Here in EZ-Pass area, one really has to do a lot of research to find a transponder that does not charge a monthly fee.  I have one and I only use it about 3-4 times a year when I visit relatives in the NY area.  If the tolls in the Mid-Atlantic go cashless, it won't matter to me, since I already have an EZ-PASS.  But if they implemented a system similar to Florida, where unregistered users would only have to pay an additional $2.50 per month of use, then they should go cashless immediately. 

Like I said, I only ever drive through FL as a tourist, and I have no issue using their cashless tolling options thanks to the SunPass fee structure.  A SunPass sticker is practically free, and even if you don't get one, the bill by plate options are perfectly reasonable.  They could rip out all their booths tomorrow and I wouldn't care.

E-Z Pass territory, on the other hand, needs to adjust some of their policies before ripping theirs out.

The poll is tied at 27! Cash should always be an option. Especially if you never use the road.

Because I apparently cannot unsubscribe to this thread, here are my opinions:

- Electronic is cheaper not only because it requires less land take, but because toll-booth operators have to (obviously) be payed money to do their job, which is an unnecessary expense.
- Cash is archaic. What is this, the 1950s? There's a reason automated billing is so popular.
- Lots of users on this site are old people who still think button copy is a good idea and who rag on for hours about Clearview. I think you all need to listen to Bob Dylan's "The Times They Are a-Changin:"

Quote from: jake on March 31, 2014, 04:48:16 PM
- Lots of users on this site are old people who still think button copy is a good idea and who rag on for hours about Clearview.

I am not old.  However, I am in the "more button copy, less Clearview" crowd.  Newer doesn't necessarily mean better.

Quote from: US 41 on March 31, 2014, 03:59:47 PM
The poll is tied at 27! Cash should always be an option. Especially if you never use the road.

If you never use the road, then you won't have to pay a toll, period!  :spin:

Quote from: jake on March 31, 2014, 04:48:16 PM
Because I apparently cannot unsubscribe to this thread, here are my opinions:

- Cash is archaic. What is this, the 1950s? There's a reason automated billing is so popular.

Tell that to those who are victims of the Target identity theft stuff.  I much prefer cash for most purchases as it is far, far safer (oddly enough) in this day and age of identity theft.  You lose a $20, so what.  You lose your account number and PIN to a crime ring, you're out everything.

Quote from: Brandon on April 01, 2014, 09:16:55 AM

Quote from: jake on March 31, 2014, 04:48:16 PM
Because I apparently cannot unsubscribe to this thread, here are my opinions:

- Cash is archaic. What is this, the 1950s? There's a reason automated billing is so popular.

Tell that to those who are victims of the Target identity theft stuff.  I much prefer cash for most purchases as it is far, far safer (oddly enough) in this day and age of identity theft.  You lose a $20, so what.  You lose your account number and PIN to a crime ring, you're out everything.

If you're using a PIN instead of credit at Target, you sort of have it coming.

Quote from: Brandon on April 01, 2014, 09:16:55 AM

Quote from: jake on March 31, 2014, 04:48:16 PM
Because I apparently cannot unsubscribe to this thread, here are my opinions:

- Cash is archaic. What is this, the 1950s? There's a reason automated billing is so popular.

Tell that to those who are victims of the Target identity theft stuff.  I much prefer cash for most purchases as it is far, far safer (oddly enough) in this day and age of identity theft.  You lose a $20, so what.  You lose your account number and PIN to a crime ring, you're out everything.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, and the needs of the many suggest a number of things to me:

- Most people do not have identity theft issues
- People are in a rush these days and as such would rather use electronic tolling anyways
-> Tollbooths create extra unnecessary traffic that electronic tolling does not
- The majority are not willing to pay extra for tollbooths, as like I said before, tollbooths need people to man them, and they need to be payed a salary.

I can't blame you for thinking I'm being daft, unforgiving, or arrogant, but all I care about is money, and electronic tolling is cheaper. Period.

EDIT: I want to make it understood that I fully agree that cash is safer.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on April 01, 2014, 09:52:21 AM

If you're using a PIN instead of credit at Target, you sort of have it coming.

indeed.  that's what credit cards are for.  you have a lot better buyer protection, including about 21 days of grace period in which you can review all the charges that have appeared.

Quote from: Brandon on April 01, 2014, 09:16:55 AM

Quote from: jake on March 31, 2014, 04:48:16 PM
Because I apparently cannot unsubscribe to this thread, here are my opinions:

- Cash is archaic. What is this, the 1950s? There's a reason automated billing is so popular.

Tell that to those who are victims of the Target identity theft stuff.  I much prefer cash for most purchases as it is far, far safer (oddly enough) in this day and age of identity theft.  You lose a $20, so what.  You lose your account number and PIN to a crime ring, you're out everything.

Don't even need that.  If your Debit Card can be used as a credit card (without the pin), all one needs is the 16 digit number and the expiration date.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on April 01, 2014, 09:52:21 AM

Quote from: Brandon on April 01, 2014, 09:16:55 AM

Quote from: jake on March 31, 2014, 04:48:16 PM
Because I apparently cannot unsubscribe to this thread, here are my opinions:

- Cash is archaic. What is this, the 1950s? There's a reason automated billing is so popular.

Tell that to those who are victims of the Target identity theft stuff.  I much prefer cash for most purchases as it is far, far safer (oddly enough) in this day and age of identity theft.  You lose a $20, so what.  You lose your account number and PIN to a crime ring, you're out everything.

If you're using a PIN instead of credit at Target, you sort of have it coming.

I used credit and still had my card number compromised at Target.


iPhone

Quote from: Laura on April 01, 2014, 11:56:24 AM

I used credit and still had my card number compromised at Target.

did anything worse happen than the card company giving you a call saying "guess what, you have to memorize a new card number now"?

Making mountains out of mole hills.

I had my credit card compromised at Target. You know what happened? Nothing.

Nothing.

My issuer (PNC) called, said that the number was one of those that were compromised, and locked the account. They shipped me a new card within a day. That was that.

I had another card that was hijacked and $250 in charges were charged, but the issuer (PNC) called, we had a 10 minute discussion and those charges were reversed. Easy as that.

My Chase VISA, which I use exclusively for Amazon purchases for those handy points, is tracked very well. I can use it online at Amazon and then fuel up 100 miles from my house and get a call from Chase a few minutes later asking if that purchase was valid.

Quote from: Laura on April 01, 2014, 11:56:24 AM

Quote from: Pete from Boston on April 01, 2014, 09:52:21 AM

Quote from: Brandon on April 01, 2014, 09:16:55 AM

Quote from: jake on March 31, 2014, 04:48:16 PM
Because I apparently cannot unsubscribe to this thread, here are my opinions:

- Cash is archaic. What is this, the 1950s? There's a reason automated billing is so popular.

Tell that to those who are victims of the Target identity theft stuff.  I much prefer cash for most purchases as it is far, far safer (oddly enough) in this day and age of identity theft.  You lose a $20, so what.  You lose your account number and PIN to a crime ring, you're out everything.

If you're using a PIN instead of credit at Target, you sort of have it coming.

I used credit and still had my card number compromised at Target.

I shop at Target regularly.  Fortnately for me though I did not shop there during the dates that card numbers were compromised.

I use credit cards extensively, but responsibly.  I hardly pay cash for anything.  Usually just small purchases...cup of coffee, sandwich, etc.  The dollar amount is usually around $20...if it's less than $20, I'll pay cash.  Any more, and I charge it. 

The exception being road tolls.  I have EZ Pass, and have had it for a long time.  I do get charged $1 a month maintenance fee, but I determined that it's worth it to sail through toll plazas and not have to sit in the cash queues and fiddle for money to pay.   I love taking advantage of ORT when available too. 

I've charged under $2 many times at convenience stores and such.  I almost hate doing so, but I rarely use cash anymore.  If it's a group outing at a restaurant, I will bring cash, including 1's, so I can give the server exact change.

Quote from: Laura on April 01, 2014, 11:56:24 AM

Quote from: Pete from Boston on April 01, 2014, 09:52:21 AM

Quote from: Brandon on April 01, 2014, 09:16:55 AM

Quote from: jake on March 31, 2014, 04:48:16 PM
Because I apparently cannot unsubscribe to this thread, here are my opinions:

- Cash is archaic. What is this, the 1950s? There's a reason automated billing is so popular.

Tell that to those who are victims of the Target identity theft stuff.  I much prefer cash for most purchases as it is far, far safer (oddly enough) in this day and age of identity theft.  You lose a $20, so what.  You lose your account number and PIN to a crime ring, you're out everything.

If you're using a PIN instead of credit at Target, you sort of have it coming.

I used credit and still had my card number compromised at Target.

Your PIN would have been like holding the door for the people cleaning out your house.

The most you are on the hook for in instances of credit card fraud is $50, and I've never been charged even that.

I understand the allegiance to cash payment for tolls, but ultimately it's going to end up being like paying cash for utility bills — possible, but inconvenient and provided for only just barely.  The market serves the majority.

Quote from: Brandon on April 01, 2014, 09:16:55 AM
Tell that to those who are victims of the Target identity theft stuff.  I much prefer cash for most purchases as it is far, far safer (oddly enough) in this day and age of identity theft.  You lose a $20, so what.  You lose your account number and PIN to a crime ring, you're out everything.

That's why you use a credit/charge card, or run your debit card as credit. You're not responsible for fraudulent charges on credit cards or debit transactions run through a credit network. If your card number is compromised, most often your bank will detect it and call you based on unusual transactions. If not, a quick phone call will get those charges waived and a new card with a new number send FedEx overnight. The only real annoyance is having to update anything you have set to auto-bill the old card number.

Plus Target's issue was brought about in large part by Target themselves though bad security practices.  Back when these systems were put in place, nobody took the idea that hackers would go online seriously, so they're very insecure, and many companies can't be bothered to spend the money to upgrade security.

For one, there isn't much reason to keep the card data for in-store transactions.  Just run the card again if you need to process a return.  If the info is never written to disk, a hacker can't steal it.  The only time credit card info should be stored is if someone chooses to do so on their online account.

Wait wait wait. Electronic tolling does not mean debit or credit. Cash is acceptable as well, at least here in Washington. Here are WSDOT's payment methods:

Quote from: WSDOT, Payments and Billing Frequently Asked Questions
- Pay online
- By phone: 1-866-936-8246
- By mail: Good To Go!, P.O. Box 300321, Seattle, WA 98103
- In person at a customer service center in Seattle, Bellevue or Gig Harbor

Who cares about card fraud when even electronic tolling can be paid with cash.

Quote from: Brandon on March 21, 2014, 07:25:15 PM

Quote from: theline on March 21, 2014, 07:03:37 PM

Quote from: Brandon on March 21, 2014, 03:35:44 PM
^^ Interesting.  ISTHA sent out a letter 10 years after I got the transponder stating that I had to replace it.  Replacement was easy.  I just followed the letter and brought it and my old transponder to a Jewel-Osco.  It was replaced for free there and the new one activated immediately.  No battery failure.

Trading transponders is not so easy for me, since I live in South Bend, far from a Jewel-Osco. I haven't figured out what to do about it yet. The ISTHA web site is no help. Maybe I'll call.

There's one in Chesterton, near I-94 and IN-49.

While I still appreciate the suggestion, Brandon, it didn't work out. We stopped by the Jewel/Osco in Chesterton, on our way back from Merrillville on Monday. They won't trade transponders at Indiana locations, we learned, because of a "conflict of interest." We pointed out we had purchased it at that same store several years ago, but the clerk explained that ISTHA pulled out as soon as Indiana started electronic tolling after we got our transponder.

I guess we will be calling to see how we can return the Illinois gizmo and purchase one from Indiana.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on April 01, 2014, 09:52:21 AM
If you're using a PIN instead of credit at Target, you sort of have it coming.

Because credit ID theft doesn't happen?

I realize we have pretty much already become a database society where everyone can be tracked or stolen from with a few important numbers.  However, there are many non-nefarious benefits to anonymity which I think should be preserved as much as possible.

Quote from: MrDisco99 on April 04, 2014, 12:07:14 PM

Quote from: Pete from Boston on April 01, 2014, 09:52:21 AM
If you're using a PIN instead of credit at Target, you sort of have it coming.

Because credit ID theft doesn't happen?

No, but as I said, you're probably better off with the credit card protections.  You're pretty wide open to ID theft simply by taking part in society.

Quote from: MrDisco99 on April 04, 2014, 12:07:14 PM

Quote from: Pete from Boston on April 01, 2014, 09:52:21 AM
If you're using a PIN instead of credit at Target, you sort of have it coming.

Because credit ID theft doesn't happen?

I realize we have pretty much already become a database society where everyone can be tracked or stolen from with a few important numbers.  However, there are many non-nefarious benefits to anonymity which I think should be preserved as much as possible.

If you're credit card info gets stolen, the most you're liable for is $50.  If your debit card info gets stolen, your entire bank account can be emptied.

Quote from: vdeane on April 04, 2014, 03:58:08 PM
If your credit card info gets stolen, the most you're liable for is $50.  If your debit card info gets stolen, your entire bank account can be emptied.

Many of the higher-end credit cards will spot you the $50 and make your liability for fraudulent charges zero.

Quote from: SidS1045 on April 04, 2014, 04:37:17 PM

Quote from: vdeane on April 04, 2014, 03:58:08 PM
If your credit card info gets stolen, the most you're liable for is $50.  If your debit card info gets stolen, your entire bank account can be emptied.

Many of the higher-end credit cards will spot you the $50 and make your liability for fraudulent charges zero.

Right, which is why I've never even been charged that (not even without a high-end card).  The $50 seems to almost be made up so they can offer pretend goodwill by waiving it.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on April 09, 2014, 04:48:01 PM

Quote from: SidS1045 on April 04, 2014, 04:37:17 PM

Quote from: vdeane on April 04, 2014, 03:58:08 PM
If your credit card info gets stolen, the most you're liable for is $50.  If your debit card info gets stolen, your entire bank account can be emptied.

Many of the higher-end credit cards will spot you the $50 and make your liability for fraudulent charges zero.

Right, which is why I've never even been charged that (not even without a high-end card).  The $50 seems to almost be made up so they can offer pretend goodwill by waiving it.

I believe the $50 figure is in federal law.  As I recall, federal law limits liability in the case of credit card fraud to $50, but many credit cards have zero liability.  Even my debit card has zero liability, with disputed charges reversed by the following business day, pending investigation.

Indiana does not have any employees at their toll plazas; it's just you and the machine. If there is a problem, you press the intercom button and somebody from a remote location will try to assist you. I've been stuck behind people that can't read the EZ Pass only signs a number of times on the ITR, and even 2 or 3 occasions where my iPass would not read. Twice they entered it manually and once they made me pay (the machine) with cash.

Quote from: Brandon on March 21, 2014, 04:43:36 PM
No idea on the gate arms.  I haven't seen one on an ISTHA road outside a manual lane in a long time.  Then, I suspect you'd get instant help from the attendant on-duty.  The Indiana Toll Road still has the gate arms, but they have attendants on-duty at the plazas as well.  I suspect you'd have to honk your horn and get help.

I wouldn't advise that, unless you like paying Indiana 75 cents a month just to have their transponder. Illinois does not charge a monthly fee.

Quote from: theline on April 02, 2014, 10:56:50 PM
I guess we will be calling to see how we can return the Illinois gizmo and purchase one from Indiana.

Quote from: vdeane on April 01, 2014, 05:34:12 PM
For one, there isn't much reason to keep the card data for in-store transactions.  Just run the card again if you need to process a return.  If the info is never written to disk, a hacker can't steal it.  The only time credit card info should be stored is if someone chooses to do so on their online account.

This wouldn't work. You would have no way of verifying that the card presented for the return is the same one that was used to make the purchase.

Quote from: Scott5114 on April 11, 2014, 04:08:32 AM

Quote from: vdeane on April 01, 2014, 05:34:12 PM
For one, there isn't much reason to keep the card data for in-store transactions.  Just run the card again if you need to process a return.  If the info is never written to disk, a hacker can't steal it.  The only time credit card info should be stored is if someone chooses to do so on their online account.

This wouldn't work. You would have no way of verifying that the card presented for the return is the same one that was used to make the purchase.

Don't receipts include enough information for that?  Every time I get a receipt for something I paid with a credit card, it has the card issuer and the last four digits of the card number.

It would also be possible to change the model so that the retailer is giving a credit rather than reversing part of the previous transaction.

Quote from: DevalDragon on April 11, 2014, 02:19:18 AM
Indiana does not have any employees at their toll plazas; it's just you and the machine. If there is a problem, you press the intercom button and somebody from a remote location will try to assist you. I've been stuck behind people that can't read the EZ Pass only signs a number of times on the ITR, and even 2 or 3 occasions where my iPass would not read. Twice they entered it manually and once they made me pay (the machine) with cash.

Quote from: Brandon on March 21, 2014, 04:43:36 PM
No idea on the gate arms.  I haven't seen one on an ISTHA road outside a manual lane in a long time.  Then, I suspect you'd get instant help from the attendant on-duty.  The Indiana Toll Road still has the gate arms, but they have attendants on-duty at the plazas as well.  I suspect you'd have to honk your horn and get help.

This is new then, as last time I was on the Indiana Toll Road (last year), they still had attendants at the mainline toll plazas (Willowcreek and Eastpoint).  And I've always seen attendants on the ticket section of the Toll Road.  Now, the western part does have unattended toll plazas that have coin baskets (a la ISTHA).

The Indiana Toll Road experience varies. Some toll booths are attended, and others have no one in sight, as Dragon experienced. I suppose it depends on how busy the exit is. The good thing is that they all accept credit, debit, and good old greenbacks. I've had occasions where the I-Pass didn't register when I entered the road. I took a ticket, and then handed ticket and transponder to the attendant at my exit. It was hassle-free. I was fortunate that that booth was attended.

That brings up the fact that even the EZ-Pass lanes have ticket dispensers. If the transponder doesn't work, you realize too late that you don't have it, or you're too stupid to get in the right lane, just take a ticket and the gate opens.