In your opinion, what are good reasons for a state to maintain a road that "goes nowhere"? As I worked on my reform of Louisiana's highway system, I am considering that the state should maintain a road if it is used heavily to access a state or national asset. Examples include:
- State universities. I'm keeping the business portion of LA 6 in Natchitoches because it goes right by Northwestern State University. I'm considering keeping LA 30 near LSU even though the state intends to revert it. I'm also going to look at state routes that provide direct access to the other universities.
- Access to state prisons. I'm keeping LA 66 because it goes to Louisiana State Penitentiary. I figure that the parish and local residents wouldn't be too happy if the state didn't maintain the road it uses to transport its miscreants.
- Military installations. There are a few state routes that provide direct access to Fort Polk and Barksdale AFB.
- National parks and preserves.
Can you think of other good reasons for a state to maintain a short road?
interestingly, there isn't any particular mandate in place for states to maintain the roads to their government offices; even the symbolically important ones.
in at least one case, the state capitol is on a former state-maintained highway. (Sacramento.) I'll bet this is common elsewhere too, but right now I am far too lazy to do the research.
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/CA/CA19351624i1.jpg)
NJ 31 in Trenton: It's in the capital city dammit, and it looks like crap.
US 206 in Trenton, north of Warren Street / NJ 31 intersection: Same as above.
Well, which gets more traffic: Capitol Access Road, or Nicholson Dr. leading into LSU (especially before/after a home football game)? :-D
Quote from: jbnv on April 10, 2014, 02:12:09 PM
Well, which gets more traffic: Capitol Access Road, or Nicholson Dr. leading into LSU (especially before/after a home football game)? :-D
So you're trying to bias the results?
Quote from: 1 on April 10, 2014, 02:57:06 PM
Quote from: jbnv on April 10, 2014, 02:12:09 PM
Well, which gets more traffic: Capitol Access Road, or Nicholson Dr. leading into LSU (especially before/after a home football game)? :-D
So you're trying to bias the results?
I meant the football part in jest, but I do have a point: Which of these two situations places more of a burden on the infrastructure? I would venture that for most states, the roads to the flagship university get heavier traffic than the roads to the state capitol. Factor in major athletic events and the bias tips even further. Thus I make a case for putting major roads to a state university under state maintenance, whereas I do not make that case for the state capitol.
Quote from: Zeffy on April 10, 2014, 12:21:58 PMTrenton: It's the capital city dammit, and it looks like crap.
FTFY
Quote from: jbnv on April 10, 2014, 02:12:09 PM
Well, which gets more traffic: Capitol Access Road, or Nicholson Dr. leading into LSU (especially before/after a home football game)? :-D
One consideration is whether you want truck traffic running through campus. Since I would think that at a minimum, a state route should always be a truck route with certain rare exceptions, then retaining LA 30 through LSU means allowing semis to traverse Nicholson Drive and pass through campus. Not a good idea in a major pedestrian zone. (LSU designates priority to pedestrians and non-motorized transport within its central campus area.) I believe that is one of the main reasons as to why DOTD wants to essentially reroute LA 30 via Essen/Staring. (The other reason is that Nicholson is planned to be eventually transformed into an "urban boulevard" between downtown and LSU.)
On the other hand, it is certainly possible for the state highway department to maintain the streets within a campus or other public facility. DOTD already does this from what I understand, though they do not publicly number these routes (though they might use an internal inventory number). Other states do number (and sign) their "facility access" routes. Utah and Virginia come to mind. I am on the fence as to whether these routes need numbers, insofar as numbers are used for navigation. Maybe give them numbers but keep them unsigned.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on April 10, 2014, 07:05:04 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on April 10, 2014, 12:21:58 PMTrenton: It's the capital city dammit, and it looks like crap.
FTFY
That's not very nice. Yes, it's run-down, but there
are parts of the city that are beautiful. In the case of it's roads: not so much. NJ 29 isn't in bad shape.
Quote from: Zeffy on April 10, 2014, 08:08:14 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on April 10, 2014, 07:05:04 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on April 10, 2014, 12:21:58 PMTrenton: It's the capital city dammit, and it looks like crap.
FTFY
That's not very nice. Yes, it's run-down, but there are parts of the city that are beautiful. In the case of it's roads: not so much. NJ 29 isn't in bad shape.
In fairness, I haven't been there in years, but Trenton is one of those places where it seemed like disinvestment might have kept some neighborhoods with beautiful old houses from being redeveloped.
I would say that, in reality, the state should keep roads that it uses for political purposes. LA 66 is a heavily used route, especially leading up to Angola. Nicholson Drive leads right into LSU's athletic facilities. However, at the same time, if the city of Baton Rouge wants to widen the road, and the university would like to use athletic funds to install pedestrian overpasses, it would happen much quicker than using the state's contracts and bidding requirements.
However, I live in a rural parish, where we have one of the federal prisons. It's a parish road leading up to the prison, but the federal government does pay to upgrade the road (moved the entire parish road for the prison), and has paid to help with maintenance. It's also one of the few parish roads I know of with a 55 MPH speed limit.
For all it's worth, David Wade Correctional Center is on a national forest road. Winn Correctional Center is on a parish road. Pollock USP is on a parish road. Oakdale USP is on a parish road. Most state prisons, with the exception of Angola, are on locally maintained roads. The DOTD does need to maintain roads it will drive the heavy equipment on, which means LA 1208-2 is staying, LA 1248 is staying, and LA 3045 is staying. Maintenance units will always be on a state highway, and the highway department buildings will always have their own state routes running next to them. Unsigned would be better, but they still exist, and need to stay.
Finally, the Louisiana State Capitol is not on a state highway - all city roads. LA 3045 ends at the bridge right after the LaDOTD HQ, and runs only from that bridge to I-110. Also, Southern University doesn't have a state road - LA 408 ends at the junction with US 61.
Quote from: mcdonaat on April 11, 2014, 12:36:51 AM
However, at the same time, if the city of Baton Rouge wants to widen the road, and the university would like to use athletic funds to install pedestrian overpasses, it would happen much quicker than using the state's contracts and bidding requirements.
That is a good point. I expect Lafayette to accept the state's proposal to release LA 339 and LA 89 as both are two-lane roads that sorely need to be widened.
Quote from: mcdonaat on April 11, 2014, 12:36:51 AM
For all it's worth, David Wade Correctional Center is on a national forest road. Winn Correctional Center is on a parish road. Pollock USP is on a parish road. Oakdale USP is on a parish road. Most state prisons, with the exception of Angola, are on locally maintained roads.
Good observation. I suspect the parishes are well-paid by the state for the prisons.
Quote from: mcdonaat on April 11, 2014, 12:36:51 AM
The DOTD does need to maintain roads it will drive the heavy equipment on, which means LA 1208-2 is staying, LA 1248 is staying, and LA 3045 is staying. Maintenance units will always be on a state highway, and the highway department buildings will always have their own state routes running next to them.
Another good point. Where are 1248 and 1208-2?
LA 1248 is in Chase. LA 1208-2 is in Alexandria, by the DOTD district HQ
Nexus 7
TxDOT maintains TX 165, which is the road through the Texas State Cemetery. As a side note, it has a gate and the web site says the cemetery is open from 8 to 5; this is the only state highway I know of with regular closing hours.
https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=30.265702,-97.72429&spn=0.003132,0.005681&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=30.265701,-97.725315&panoid=ctdxdZlZWjf8loJiL8GJng&cbp=12,301.01,,0,0 (https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=30.265702,-97.72429&spn=0.003132,0.005681&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=30.265701,-97.725315&panoid=ctdxdZlZWjf8loJiL8GJng&cbp=12,301.01,,0,0)
We could also include Spur 97, which is a short freeway connecting TX 183 with International Parkway, the road through DFW Airport.
When I read the question, I thought of the undesignated roads in Texas state parks. The roads in state parks are maintained by TxDOT. Some are undesignated, with lower-quality pavement or sometimes gravel surfaces, while some are designated highways, Park Roads.
Connecticut doesn't have county routes, as far as I know. We do have many "secret" routes which are state maintained. Example: Willow Brook Connector in Berlin. It's a little over a mile, heading west from CT 9's Exit 24 to the junction of CT 71A and CT 372, close to the New Britain city line. It's secret state route 571. Oddly enough, 372 happens to be the highest numbered state route we have.
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on April 12, 2014, 06:39:14 PM
Connecticut doesn't have county routes, as far as I know. We do have many "secret" routes which are state maintained. Example: Willow Brook Connector in Berlin. It's a little over a mile, heading west from CT 9's Exit 24 to the junction of CT 71A and CT 372, close to the New Britain city line. It's secret state route 571. Oddly enough, 372 happens to be the highest numbered state route we have.
You're correct. Connecticut doesn't have county routes because it doesn't have county governments. Everything not maintained by the state is maintained by the town or city.
Quote from: dgolub on April 12, 2014, 08:15:55 PM
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on April 12, 2014, 06:39:14 PM
Connecticut doesn't have county routes, as far as I know. We do have many "secret" routes which are state maintained. Example: Willow Brook Connector in Berlin. It's a little over a mile, heading west from CT 9's Exit 24 to the junction of CT 71A and CT 372, close to the New Britain city line. It's secret state route 571. Oddly enough, 372 happens to be the highest numbered state route we have.
You're correct. Connecticut doesn't have county routes because it doesn't have county governments. Everything not maintained by the state is maintained by the town or city.
Are there any non-state roads that aren't in a city or town?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 10, 2014, 11:50:13 AM
interestingly, there isn't any particular mandate in place for states to maintain the roads to their government offices; even the symbolically important ones.
Almost all of the government offices in Pierre are insulated from the state-maintained roads by about two blocks. Now, Utah on the other hand....
I'll see your Pierre and raise you an Indianapolis. Unless I remember incorrectly, the only state-maintained roads in the downtown are the I-65/70 inner belt, which comes nowhere close to the State House.
Don't get me started on another rant about INDOT's tendency to abandon highways in the cities. I could live with it if state law allowed the locality to sign the highways, even if they were locally maintained. :banghead:
Quote from: theline on April 13, 2014, 06:32:40 PM
I'll see your Pierre and raise you an Indianapolis. Unless I remember incorrectly, the only state-maintained roads in the downtown are the I-65/70 inner belt, which comes nowhere close to the State House.
Don't get me started on another rant about INDOT's tendency to abandon highways in the cities. I could live with it if state law allowed the locality to sign the highways, even if they were locally maintained. :banghead:
Aren't the signed business routes in South Bend actually locally maintained roads? If so, what's to keep Indy from signing Business US 31, Business US 421, etc.?
Nothing's keeping Indianapolis from signing as business routes, there's just no reason as to why they should (other than making us road-geeks happy.) The street names along the former highways (Michigan Road, Meridian Street, Washington Street, East Street, Kentucky Avenue and so on) have been so engrained in our heads that it hardly matters to your normal Naptown resident whether or not it's a business route, a state highway or a city street anymore. Also, 65 and 70 do come relatively close to the state house, less than ten blocks either way to the north or south, closer than the Monroe County or Tippecanoe County courthouses are from a state highway nowadays.
Quote from: theline on April 13, 2014, 06:32:40 PM
Don't get me started on another rant about INDOT's tendency to abandon highways in the cities. I could live with it if state law allowed the locality to sign the highways, even if they were locally maintained. :banghead:
Hey, if ours does, yours can too.
Quote from: SD codified laws
31-4-3. Inclusion of city streets in system. The Department of Transportation may at its discretion extend the state trunk highway system to include any street or streets within the limits of any first or second class municipality if necessary to make a continuous route for any state trunk highway through the municipality.
I for one think that the major "business routes" should be signed as such, to help travelers maneuver their way through. US 31 and US 40 would be the first that come to mind. In other cities, business routes might be even more useful, like in Ft. Wayne and Lafayette. Maybe it's just me.
Whether as business routes or regular highways, I think it's useful to the general public to have the most important city routes signed, especially since Indiana doesn't sign any county or secondary routes.
Quote from: jbnv on April 10, 2014, 11:20:24 AM
In your opinion, what are good reasons for a state to maintain a road that "goes nowhere"? As I worked on my reform of Louisiana's highway system, I am considering that the state should maintain a road if it is used heavily to access a state or national asset. Examples include:
- State universities. I'm keeping the business portion of LA 6 in Natchitoches because it goes right by Northwestern State University. I'm considering keeping LA 30 near LSU even though the state intends to revert it. I'm also going to look at state routes that provide direct access to the other universities.
- Access to state prisons. I'm keeping LA 66 because it goes to Louisiana State Penitentiary. I figure that the parish and local residents wouldn't be too happy if the state didn't maintain the road it uses to transport its miscreants.
- Military installations. There are a few state routes that provide direct access to Fort Polk and Barksdale AFB.
- National parks and preserves.
Can you think of other good reasons for a state to maintain a short road?
Seaports, airports, major industrial sites, tourism centers, governmental centers (for example, the cluster of federal buildings in San Francisco even though S.F. isn't a state capital), large private universities should be included along with public ones. Not that every one of these should always have a state route, they're just possible good reasons for having one.
Basically if there's a lot of out of area traffic and thus needs state signage for navigation, or there's an amount of traffic that produces more wear on the road than a locality can afford to maintain.
State DOT road maintenance facilities should be on state highways. {although it would be funny if the state employees had to wait for the county to get around to plowing the snow off the road so the state employees could get to work}
County seats, in my view, need to be on a state highway. Also, their Highway Patrol offices/hubs.
Quote from: Jardine on April 14, 2014, 08:57:47 AM
State DOT road maintenance facilities should be on state highways. {although it would be funny if the state employees had to wait for the county to get around to plowing the snow off the road so the state employees could get to work}
County seats, in my view, need to be on a state highway. Also, their Highway Patrol offices/hubs.
I can name at least three state highway maintenance facilities in Maryland that are not on state-maintained highways.
I used to audit county clerks in my old job, primarily in eastern Kentucky. Having the county courthouse on a state highway was very handy, and many times I didn't even bother to look up directions beforehand, because all I had to do was follow the signs to whatever town happened to be the seat.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 19, 2014, 06:50:48 PM
Quote from: Jardine on April 14, 2014, 08:57:47 AM
State DOT road maintenance facilities should be on state highways. {although it would be funny if the state employees had to wait for the county to get around to plowing the snow off the road so the state employees could get to work}
County seats, in my view, need to be on a state highway. Also, their Highway Patrol offices/hubs.
I can name at least three state highway maintenance facilities in Maryland that are not on state-maintained highways.
That is, indeed, funny!
Thanx!
The county I live in is generally loathe to call in snowplow operators if it involves overtime. Consequently, a snowfall Friday night might stick on the county roads till daytime on Monday. County employees don't even get their roads plowed first anymore either.
Quote from: tidecat on April 19, 2014, 07:24:01 PM
I used to audit county clerks in my old job, primarily in eastern Kentucky. Having the county courthouse on a state highway was very handy, and many times I didn't even bother to look up directions beforehand, because all I had to do was follow the signs to whatever town happened to be the seat.
Off the top of my head, I can only think of a couple of possible examples where the courthouse wouldn't be on a state highway. My home county is such a case now, as KY 52 has been rerouted off Beattyville's Main Street. Pikeville (Pike County) is another such case, as no state highway runs through downtown now. Not quite sure about Hazard (Perry County).
I can think of at least three cases in Louisiana where parish seats may not be on a state highway if the one route they have is dropped. (Convent, Edgard and Hahnville, all right on the Mississippi River.)
Which is a better way of remediating this problem?
1. Build a state road directly from the nearest state road to the county seat; or
2. Relocate the county seat to another city that is on a state road.
Many of NJDOT's maintenance yards are on state roads, although one yard tucked off of 130 near the Commodore Barry Bridge requires their trucks to take small portions of local roads. We do put the plows down and salt them, and thus are probably the best maintained local roads in the state during a snowfall.
The Deepwater NJDOT maintenance yard (which can be seen from I-295 North just after entering NJ) has a street address of the NJ Turnpike! (The only access points to the yard is a ramp to/from the NJ Turnpike/US 40, and to/from the County Rt. 551 Ramp from I-295 South.)
Quote from: Zeffy on April 10, 2014, 08:08:14 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on April 10, 2014, 07:05:04 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on April 10, 2014, 12:21:58 PMTrenton: It's the capital city dammit, and it looks like crap.
FTFY
That's not very nice. Yes, it's run-down, but there are parts of the city that are beautiful. In the case of it's roads: not so much. NJ 29 isn't in bad shape.
Rt. 29 is fine. It's taking the off ramps into Trenton that's a big mistake. :-)
Quote from: mcdonaat on April 13, 2014, 12:27:52 AM
Quote from: dgolub on April 12, 2014, 08:15:55 PM
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on April 12, 2014, 06:39:14 PM
Connecticut doesn't have county routes, as far as I know. We do have many "secret" routes which are state maintained. Example: Willow Brook Connector in Berlin. It's a little over a mile, heading west from CT 9's Exit 24 to the junction of CT 71A and CT 372, close to the New Britain city line. It's secret state route 571. Oddly enough, 372 happens to be the highest numbered state route we have.
You're correct. Connecticut doesn't have county routes because it doesn't have county governments. Everything not maintained by the state is maintained by the town or city.
Are there any non-state roads that aren't in a city or town?
There are no unincorporated areas in CT. All points in the state have some form of municipal government responsible for it's local roads. All the unsigned routes are generally either to serve a state-run facility, mostly state parks, or short connectors between other major state highways. There are a couple that could probably be promoted to signed route, such as SR-664 connecting CT-14 and US-6.
Quote from: Jardine on April 14, 2014, 08:57:47 AM
State DOT road maintenance facilities should be on state highways. {although it would be funny if the state employees had to wait for the county to get around to plowing the snow off the road so the state employees could get to work}
Yup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyoming_Highway_391).
Quote from: hbelkins on April 19, 2014, 10:58:00 PM
Quote from: tidecat on April 19, 2014, 07:24:01 PM
I used to audit county clerks in my old job, primarily in eastern Kentucky. Having the county courthouse on a state highway was very handy, and many times I didn't even bother to look up directions beforehand, because all I had to do was follow the signs to whatever town happened to be the seat.
Off the top of my head, I can only think of a couple of possible examples where the courthouse wouldn't be on a state highway. My home county is such a case now, as KY 52 has been rerouted off Beattyville's Main Street. Pikeville (Pike County) is another such case, as no state highway runs through downtown now. Not quite sure about Hazard (Perry County).
I audited the Lee County Clerk about a decade ago. I remember Pike being an exception to the rule. I did audit Perry County as well, and it is on KY 2449 (KY 2451 is the next street over), although the layout of the town is so radically different from most place in Eastern Kentucky.
Clark County was also different than many other places I audited as many of the county offices are on US 60.
Edit: Rowan County (Morehead) is an exception since Main St is not a state or US highway. I've been there too.
Quote from: tidecat on May 17, 2014, 07:07:02 PM
Edit: Rowan County (Morehead) is an exception since Main St is not a state or US highway. I've been there too.
I think Rowan County was in the process of moving the courthouse from downtown to the east side, near the MSU campus, when I was in college. That was before the new US 60 was built, which didn't come until a few years after I graduated from MSU.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 10, 2014, 11:50:13 AM
interestingly, there isn't any particular mandate in place for states to maintain the roads to their government offices; even the symbolically important ones.
in at least one case, the state capitol is on a former state-maintained highway. (Sacramento.) I'll bet this is common elsewhere too, but right now I am far too lazy to do the research.
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/CA/CA19351624i1.jpg)
Woah CA-275 back in the 1940?
Quote from: Jardine on April 14, 2014, 08:57:47 AM
State DOT road maintenance facilities should be on state highways. {although it would be funny if the state employees had to wait for the county to get around to plowing the snow off the road so the state employees could get to work}
The Maryland State Highway Administration's Fairland Shop is over a mile away from the nearest state-maintained road. I suspect (but do not know for certain) that SHA will clear the county maintained roads it needs to reach state maintenance if it has to.