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Non-Road Boards => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Zeffy on June 03, 2014, 02:09:28 PM

Title: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Zeffy on June 03, 2014, 02:09:28 PM
So, in my quest to determine which U.S. state capital is the worst (and subsequently, the best), I decided to get some input on the people who've traveled to many capitals, far and wide. How this'll work is I've come up with a rating system, which you can rate your capital city based on some common things people would consider about cities:

Here's the rating system (with code beneath it for easy copy and paste):


Please use the following to rate your capital! It would help my data tables so much. Simply copy what's in the box below and change to your liking.


[list]
[li]Location ([b]0-10 points[/b]) - [/li]
[li]Aesthetics ([b]0-10 points[/b]) - [/li]
[li]Opportunities ([b]0-10 points[/b]) -[/li]
[list]
[li]Public School System ([b]0-5 points[/b])[/li]
[li]Employment Opportunities ([b]0-5 points[/b])[/li]
[/list]
[li]Safety ([b]0-10 points[/b]) - [/li]
[list]
[li]Blight ([b]0-5 points[/b]) - [/li]
[li]Crime ([b]0-5 points[/b]) - [/li]
[/list]
[li]Public Perception ([b]0-10 points[/b]) - [/li]
[li]Landmarks ([b]0-10 points[/b]) - [/li]
[li]Tourism ([b]0-10 points[/b]) - [/li]
[li]Transportation Network ([b]0-10 points[/b]) [/li]
[li]Environment ([b]0-10 points[/b])[/li]
[li]Future ([b]0-10 points[/b]) - [/li]
[/list]




At the end, add up your final points (see note 1 below first) then figure out how your capital rates:

0-50 points -  :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
51-60 points - There aren't many worse places
61-70 points - Eh, it has it's ups and downs
71-80 points - Not bad, not bad at all
81-90 points - Such a great place!
91-95 points - Absolutely amazing!
96+ -  :sombrero:

NOTES:

1. To get your Safety score, add Vacant Properties + Violent Crime + Property Crime to get your Safety score. When you calculate your final score, ONLY add the Safety score - DO NOT add any of the subcategories of Safety to the final score.

2. At the end, if:

1. If the Safety total rating is 10 or more, add +5 to the final score.
2. If the Safety total rating is 15 or more, add +10 to the final score.
3. If the Safety total rating is 20 or more, add +15 the final score.





My new rating on Trenton coming soon once I get other things done!


The data collected here I want to use for a little mini project of mine to determine if my assumption that New Jersey's capital is the worst, or if there are others. And, to learn a little bit of everything about the other 49 capitals in the US!  :biggrin: So if you could take the time to do this, that would be great!
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Brandon on June 03, 2014, 02:25:37 PM
SPRINGFIELD


TOTAL: 54

I'd say Trenton has more going for it.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 03, 2014, 02:26:26 PM
you forgot "intuitive to memorize by six year olds shackled by brain-dead curricula?" 

Massachusetts, yes. 

Pennsylvania, not so much: overshadowed by at least two other cities in the popular knowledge).

Vermont - the worst; it could be a toss-up between it and precisely one other city.   
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: corco on June 03, 2014, 02:32:37 PM
I'll let Billy F take Montana- I got Boise.

Location - 7

Boise is about as centrally located as a place can be in Idaho without being in the middle of the wilderness. Given the massive mountains and not realistically inhabitiable terrain that divide northern and southern Idaho, it's hard to do too much better than Boise

Aesthetics - 10

Right at the base of the aforementioned mountains. The town itself has a great downtown and several good other neighborhoods (North End, Warm Springs, the Bench), and then your typical McMansion sprawl on the outskirts. No real ghettos.

Opportunities - 8

Hewlett Packard, the JR Simplot Company, Micron, Boise Cascade and U.S. Bank are just a few of the major companies with a presence in Boise. The low cost of living, nice surroundings, and educated workforce continue to draw other large companies to at least have some white-collar presence in Boise.

Significance - 6

Boise has a fairly long history, but not a terribly significant one, and hasn't even been the capital for the entire length of the state. Not much to say here- we've got some Oregon Trail stuff and it is the Basque capital of America which is neat, but that's about it.

Safety - 19

Blight - 10

There's basically no blight in Boise.  It is one of the more fast growing cities in the US and is doing quite well. Property values are on the rise- if anything gentrification is a problem in the older neighborhoods.

Crime - 9

Violent - 5

There's very little violent crime in Boise.

Property - 4

There's very little property crime in Boise. I only give it a four because a chick I went to middle school with nearly pulled off a million dollar heist of some rich people on vacation, not getting caught until much later.

Perception - 9

Boise is still relatively unknown, and it really isn't much of a tourist destination, but I guarantee that anybody who has spent any significant time (more than a week or so) in Boise will have a very high opinion of it, especially if you like the outdoors. The access to the outdoors from Boise makes Denver and Salt Lake look like...I dunno...Indianapolis. I've only met two types of people with anything less than a positive opinion of Boise- 1) people who only drove by on I-84 or only very briefly (<1 day) got off the freeway, 2) folks who have lived in Boise their whole lives and have come to take their hometown for granted. The latter folks usually change their minds after a couple years.

Landmarks - 3

Eh, the capitol is I guess a landmark. Boise is more about the natural environment than the built environment.

Family-Friendliness - 9

Boise is very family friendly- there is a lot to do for kids and the substantial Mormon influence keeps things "clean" without it feeling like you're being indoctrinated like you might in parts of Utah. There is a solid liberal population mainly centered around the North End, and downtown Boise is a fun place to go party on Saturday night though, so it's a good balance.

Future - 10

Boise is thriving. My only concern is that too many people find out about it and move there. Boise...gosh. It's not a tourist destination, nor will it ever necessarily be, but for folks looking to live somewhere where they can be safe, have a good job, live cheaply, and have a decent amount of culture with an absolute bounty of outdoor activities, it's nearly impossible to beat.

---

Which gives an 81 which is:

76-85 points - Not bad, not bad at all


and I protest this rating system, Boise is way better than that- I'd venture it is one of the top five capitols in the country.

Here is a list of the bad parts about Boise: http://www.reddit.com/r/Boise/comments/179jfv/what_are_the_worst_things_about_boise/
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Zeffy on June 03, 2014, 03:48:07 PM
Thank you for your inputs! Also, if anyone has suggestions on how to improve the rating system, please feel free to leave them as well. I might change it so 76-80 is "Not bad, not bad at all!" while 81-90 will be "Such a great place!". Also, I encourage people to submit multiple ratings about the same capital city - the more data, the better! Data from the same states will most likely be aggregated into a single score based upon the scores of each of the categories by the people submitting them.

Thanks again guys!
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: SteveG1988 on June 03, 2014, 04:10:46 PM
Trenton-From a South Jersey Perspective


Gives us a score of 60,  There aren't many worse places
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on June 03, 2014, 04:13:11 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on June 03, 2014, 02:09:28 PM
Indianapolis


  • Location (10) - Where does your capital sit in your state? Does this location provide easy access to other major parts of your state?
  • Aesthetics (8) - When you look at your capital city, do you think it looks like a great example of a thriving city, or do you think it looks like a good place to avoid?
  • Opportunities (6) - Does your capital offer a good amount of job opportunities that people would want to work in?
  • Significance (6) - Is your capital city historically significant?
  • Safety (0-20 points - broken down into three sub-categories:)

    • Vacant Properties (5) - Does your capital city suffer from the blight caused by vacant properties that would make an area unsafe? (Note, 0 means mass amount of vacant properties whereas 10 equals very little to none)
    • Crime (0-10 points, separated into two categories:)

      • Violent Crime - (1) - Is there a shooting every day, or is a homicide a very rare occurrence? (Note, 0 means violent crime are very common, whereas 5 means violent crime is very rare)
      • Property Crime - (1) - If you live there, are you at risk for getting robbed or other crime relating to your property?
  • Public Perception (4) - How does the general public feel about your state capital opinion-wise?
  • Landmarks (7) - Does your state capital contain any landmarks that others feel are significant, either historically or for other reasons?
  • Family-Friendliness (9) - Is your state capital a great place to visit for family-oriented groups?
  • Future (8) - In the future, do you think your state capital will thrive, or will it fall into disrepair?

Total score: 65
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: hotdogPi on June 03, 2014, 04:14:10 PM
Quote from: SteveG1988 on June 03, 2014, 04:10:46 PM
Trenton-From a South Jersey Perspective


  • Safety (0-20 points 7-Safe as long as you are in the main part of town, but if you are just outside of the capitol area you are taking your life into your hands.

    • Vacant Properties (0-10 points) 2- A lot of vacant properties, but many are being redeveloped
    • Crime (0-10 points) 2- Better than Camden, but not by much

      • Violent Crime - (0-5 points) 1- You cannot feel safe in most places around the city
      • Property Crime - (0-5 points) 3- Not as many broken into buildings from what i have seen compared to lets say camden

Those are not separate, and should not be counted separately. They are subcategories.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Zeffy on June 03, 2014, 06:25:20 PM
Quote from: 1 on June 03, 2014, 04:14:10 PM
Those are not separate, and should not be counted separately. They are subcategories.

Yes. So you have:

    Location (0-10 points) 8
    Aesthetics (0-10 points) 4
    Opportunities (0-10 points) 2
    Significance (0-10 points) 10
    Safety (0-20 points) 6
        Vacant Properties (0-10 points) 2
            Violent Crime - (0-5 points) 1
            Property Crime - (0-5 points) 3
    Public Perception (0-10 points) 3
    Landmarks (0-10 points) 5
    Family-Friendliness (0-10 points) 5
    Future (0-10 points) 8

FINAL SCORE: 51

I'm going to add how to get your final score result using the Excel formula I'm using to log the data. Also, I updated the ranking system to be a little bit better IMO. Boise should now be "Such a great place!"
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: JakeFromNewEngland on June 03, 2014, 06:39:07 PM
HARTFORD

Location (0-10 points) -  8. I would consider it to be in North Central Connecticut. Hartford is a hub of freeways. Most cities throughout the state are about 30-45 minutes from Hartford. I-91 south provides access to the shoreline and Greater New Haven while I-91 provides access to Bradley Airport and Springfield, Mass. I-84 provides access to Danbury and Waterbury to the west and Worcester and Boston, Mass via I-90.
Aesthetics (0-10 points) - 6. The skyline is decent and makes it look like a large city. Although I haven't experienced it, I have heard it can be quite dead at night.
Opportunities (0-10 points) - 7.  There are a lot of major business headquarters in the area. Hartford is known for it's financial jobs. There are also some world-wide headquarters nearby.
Significance (0-10 points) - 9. Hartford was the first capital of Connecticut I believe. Many important state documents were signed here that are still around today from the 1700s. Hartford also was home to many famous people including Mark Twain.
Safety (0-20 points - broken down into three sub-categories:)
Vacant Properties (0-10 points) - 5. Hartford has some bad neighborhoods. I don't know if it is caused by vacant properties, but I'm sure it's somewhere.
Crime (0-10 points, separated into two categories:)
Violent Crime - (0-5 points) - 0. You usually hear about a shooting every night on the news. This is common in many Connecticut cities (New Haven and Bridgeport notably).
Property Crime - (0-5 points) - 3. It depends. Some neighborhoods you should avoid, but anywhere near Downtown or close to West Hartford would be good areas to live in (just knowledge, I don't know what parts are terrible)
Public Perception (0-10 points) - 6. Lots of people within the state have mixed feelings. My personal opinion is that it's a nice city in the day time.  :bigass:
Landmarks (0-10 points) - 3. Honestly, there aren't any significant buildings except for the Travelers Tower which is a landmark for the city. One could argue the I-84 and CT-2 bridges, but they aren't anything special.
Family-Friendliness (0-10 points) - 8. There are some nice places within Hartford. For example, the Science Museum which is a big family attraction. Within about 30 minutes of the city are a lot of things family-related such as the Dinosaur Museum in Rocky Hill, or the Essex Steam Train in Essex.
Future (0-10 points) - 9. I think Hartford is slowly rising back to the top. There have been a lot of new projects and reviving projects going on. Now if they add a few high-rises, it would make the city look a lot more appealing.  :biggrin:

Final score is 64. This is a fair score, although I would bump it up to 70.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: briantroutman on June 03, 2014, 06:52:11 PM
Are we talking about the city itself (within the city's boundaries) or the overall community? As someone who has lived a few years with a Harrisburg address but has never lived within the city limits, I can attest that the results of each question are very different.

HARRISBURG (as a community)

TOTAL (larger community): 67 points

Close to "Not Bad" –held back by public perception and crime in parts of the city.

Now if we're looking at this as city limits only:


TOTAL (city only): 49 points
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Zeffy on June 03, 2014, 07:03:36 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on June 03, 2014, 06:52:11 PM
Are we talking about the city itself (within the city's boundaries) or the overall community? As someone who has lived a few years with a Harrisburg address but has never lived within the city limits, I can attest that the results of each question are very different.

I'm mainly talking about the actual city limits - however, nearby suburbs and communities can influence things like opportunity, but shouldn't be used for crime. An example I would use, Ewing is NOT part of Trenton, nor is Hamilton. So, your score would probably be the second (within the city limits). An easy way to explain this is by clicking on the city's name (or typing it in) to Google Maps and looking at the boundary lines. Everything within those is what I would call should be decided on.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Alps on June 03, 2014, 07:08:40 PM
You took Trenton, so, BOSTON

Total: 72
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Zeffy on June 03, 2014, 07:12:16 PM
Quote from: Alps on June 03, 2014, 07:08:40 PM
You took Trenton, so, BOSTON

You can do as many entries for whichever capitals you want, as long as you know a good deal about them. Plus, I'm always interested in what other New Jerseyans think about Trenton...  ;-)

Anyway, thanks to Alps, briantroutman and Jake2000 for your data!
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Alps on June 03, 2014, 07:17:09 PM
PROVIDENCE

Total: 57
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Alps on June 03, 2014, 07:22:09 PM
MONTPELIER
Total: 77
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Alps on June 03, 2014, 07:30:38 PM
HONOLULU
Total: 83
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Zeffy on June 03, 2014, 07:34:30 PM
Thanks Alps! I'm noticing that the scores are looking a little low for places with virtually no crime, so, to see if this gives places a boost, here's what I propose:

1. If the Safety total rating is 10 or more, add +5 to the final score.
2. If the Safety total rating is 15 or more, add +10 to the final score.
3. If the Safety total rating is 20 or more, add +15 the final score.

NOTE: If you meet more than one category here, you only use the highest point addition.

So, with that being said, here's what gets changed here:

Honolulu, HI - 83 + 10 = 93 final score
Montpelier, VT - 77 + 15 = 92 final score
Boston, MA - 72 + 5 = 77 final score
Providence, RI - 57 + 5 = 62 final score
Boise, ID - 81 + 10 = 91 final score

This should help separate the cities that stand out versus the ones that are crumbling slowly.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: hbelkins on June 03, 2014, 07:43:02 PM
Even though I worked in Frankfort every day for six years and still go there several times a year for work, I'm not knowledgeable enough about the specific criteria used in this ranking system to give an honest opinion. All I can give are general observations.

It's pretty well-located in the center of the state, although if the capital was going to be the geographical center as well, it would be somewhere near Springfield or Lebanon (about an hour southwest of Frankfort).

In many ways, it's a small town. Lots of the state employees who work there live in adjoining counties, or even Lexington or Louisville. On evenings and weekends it can seem like a ghost town, even though it's one of those regional centers that has stores like Walmart, Kmart, JC Penney, Lowe's, etc. It also has lots of the "fast-casual" dining places like Chili's, Applebee's and the like. It also has a college (Kentucky State University, which is considered to be one of those "historically black" colleges).

To be a state capital, it has a dearth of hotels/motels. (Oddly enough, I've also noticed this about Charleston, WV, which is a much larger city). Frankfort has a Best Western and a Fairfield at the US 60 exit, and a HI Express, Hampton Inn, Days Inn and America's Best Value (former Super 8) on US 127 on the west side of town. There's also the Capital Plaza Tower located on the edge of downtown (was a Holiday Inn for awhile) and a couple of independent motels that I'm not brave enough to try when I'm there overnight.

If not for being the state capital, Frankfort would probably look a lot like Lawrenceburg, Paris or Versailles, which are nearby towns in the Bluegrass area of the state that are not located on an interstate.

I'm not really sure that most Kentuckians have an opinion about Frankfort the town. Their perception is of Frankfort the seat of state government. I'd say that unlike Boston or Providence or Hartford or even Charleston or Albany, nothing is special about the place except that it's the capital city and the State Capitol is located there.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: hbelkins on June 03, 2014, 07:52:18 PM
Quote from: Thing 342 on June 03, 2014, 07:41:09 PM
Richmond, VA:


  • Location (9) - Well centered within the state. Located at the intersection between an important national corridor (I-95) and an important intrastate corridor (I-64). Most important routes tend to radiate outward. Roughly equidistant between Norfolk and DC.

I think many people in Virginia, especially the southwestern portion, would disagree with you.  I certainly do. I was at a press conference with a Virginia state trooper from Wise, and he was complaining about how far it is to Richmond and how long it takes to get there. He was noting how he's closer to Frankfort and Charleston, and maybe even Nashville or Raleigh, than he is Richmond.

I'd give Richmond a 3 at best.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: SP Cook on June 03, 2014, 08:17:49 PM
CHARLESTON

-Location (0-10 points) - 10.  Considering the odd geography of the state, you really cannot do any better.
-Aesthetics (0-10 points) - 4.  Typical rust belt mill town that peaked in the early 50s.  Main industry, besides government is not coal, but chemicals, which looks scary to the uninformed.
-Opportunities (0-10 points) - 2.  West Virginia, as a whole is the only state to lose population over the last 70 years (when the US population increased nearly 4 fold)  and, but for the geopolitical accident of the 3 eastern counties, would have joined Michigan as the only state to actually lose population between 00 and 10 censuses.  Charleston is a part of that.  Nothing left for the blue collar person.  Down almost 15K since 50s.
-Significance (0-10 points) - 3.  None.
-Safety (0-20 points - broken down into four sub-categories:)  7
◦Vacant Properties (0-10 points) - 4.  Not as bad as Detroit or such, but all those people that used to live here and moved away lived somewhere.  Plenty of vacant properties.
◦Crime (0-10 points, separated into two categories:)
■Violent Crime - (0-5 points) - 1.  Along with nearby Huntington, bombed out by meth and crack addicts.
■Property Crime - (0-5 points) - 2.  Only the core downtown during daylight hours, and the middle class Kanawha City and ultra-rich South Hills sections are safe.  Rest of town is a place you do not go.
-Public Perception (0-10 points) - 2.  Most of state uses "Charleston" to mean "the state government" like you use "the Pentagon" or "the White House" and such.  No one outside the area really cares about the town one way or the other.
-Landmarks (0-10 points) - 1.  Other than government buildings (the capitol itself is nice) nothing of significante.
-Family-Friendliness (0-10 points) - 2.  There is a mall.  And a Chucky Cheese.
-Future (0-10 points) - 1,  War on Coal.  Take out the coal and the three counties, and WV is a mixture of the worn out Rust Belt towns along the Ohio and its tributaries and unpopulated mountain counties with nothing there to support a family.   

34
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 03, 2014, 08:31:22 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 03, 2014, 07:52:18 PM

I think many people in Virginia, especially the southwestern portion, would disagree with you.  I certainly do. I was at a press conference with a Virginia state trooper from Wise, and he was complaining about how far it is to Richmond and how long it takes to get there. He was noting how he's closer to Frankfort and Charleston, and maybe even Nashville or Raleigh, than he is Richmond.


where would you put the capital?  Virginia is oddly shaped, with its spur to the southwest.  further to the south would cause it to move away from the population centers that define its being the south end of the northern megaplex.  further north or east and it would alienate the west of the state even more. 

further west is the only choice that would have some merit, but I happen to disagree.  Lynchburg may be a bit more geographically logical, but then you'd get people from the populated northern and eastern part of Virginia (which would now include Richmond) complaining.

Lynchburg may have made sense geographically if WV had not broken away in 1862.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: oscar on June 03, 2014, 08:43:01 PM
I don't know enough for a detailed ranking, but "location" for Juneau AK has to be sub-zero if that's even possible.  It was centrally located when the then-territorial capital moved from the even more remote Sitka ca. 1906, but now it's hundreds of miles from the state's main population centers in the "Railbelt" (Seward to Fairbanks along the Alaska Railroad).  And the only "road connection" for most of the state's population is via auto ferry plus a long drive through Canada, except the occasional cross-gulf ferry between Whittier and Juneau via Yakutat.  The state offsets that to some extent by using Anchorage as a de facto second administrative capital, kind of like how some California state agencies have their main offices in San Francisco and Los Angeles rather than Sacramento.

Is there any other state where there is strong sentiment for moving the state capital to a more central or otherwise better location?
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Doctor Whom on June 03, 2014, 08:49:43 PM
Since I don't live in a place with a state capital, I'll choose the capital of the state where I grew up.

ANNAPOLIS

71 + 15 bonus points for safety = 86.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Eth on June 03, 2014, 08:56:44 PM
My thoughts on Atlanta:


Total: 71 + 5 safety bonus points = 76 points. Not bad, not bad at all.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Takumi on June 03, 2014, 09:06:28 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 03, 2014, 08:31:22 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 03, 2014, 07:52:18 PM

I think many people in Virginia, especially the southwestern portion, would disagree with you.  I certainly do. I was at a press conference with a Virginia state trooper from Wise, and he was complaining about how far it is to Richmond and how long it takes to get there. He was noting how he's closer to Frankfort and Charleston, and maybe even Nashville or Raleigh, than he is Richmond.


where would you put the capital?  Virginia is oddly shaped, with its spur to the southwest.  further to the south would cause it to move away from the population centers that define its being the south end of the northern megaplex.  further north or east and it would alienate the west of the state even more. 

further west is the only choice that would have some merit, but I happen to disagree.  Lynchburg may be a bit more geographically logical, but then you'd get people from the populated northern and eastern part of Virginia (which would now include Richmond) complaining.

Lynchburg may have made sense geographically if WV had not broken away in 1862.
Farmville's closer, but too small and would be too prone to jokes. The geographic center of Virginia is in Buckingham County, which is the middle of nowhere. There's enough room that a new capital could be built from the ground up a la Burma.* I'd rate Richmond a 5 on the location scale since it's more cenral from a population standpoint than a geographic one. I'm still thinking about most of the other categories.

*please don't take this suggestion seriously
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: corco on June 03, 2014, 09:24:10 PM
QuoteThe geographic center of Virginia is in Buckingham County, which is the middle of nowhere. There's enough room that a new capital could be built from the ground up a la Burma.*

I finally have found my purpose in life. I'm moving to Virginia this evening and will commence this operation.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: briantroutman on June 03, 2014, 09:26:05 PM
SACRAMENTO


TOTAL: 47 points
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: oscar on June 03, 2014, 09:40:12 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on June 03, 2014, 09:26:05 PM
SACRAMENTO

...
  • Family-Friendliness (5 points) - There are parks, museums, sporting events, and recreation activities on the river, and housing costs are well below the state average, making the city a little more livable in some regards. But it's not the most kid-friendly place...

When I spent the summer there as a student in 1979, we called Sacramento "a nice place to raise a family".  That was not intended as a compliment. 

My guess is that the city has become a bit livelier in the past 35 years.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: vdeane on June 03, 2014, 09:46:54 PM
I'll let someone else take Albany, but whoever does should factor in Albany being the oldest continuously chartered city in North America.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: hotdogPi on June 03, 2014, 10:02:32 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on June 03, 2014, 09:26:05 PM

Safety (8 points) - Murder rates are a little higher than the national average, but property crimes and assaults are about double.

Vacant Properties (5 points) - The housing bubble has hit much of the Central Valley harder than most the U.S., although Sacramento isn't in quite the terrible shape Modesto, Stockton, or Fresno are.

Crime (4 points)

4+5=8?
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: briantroutman on June 03, 2014, 10:13:46 PM
Quote from: 1 on June 03, 2014, 10:02:32 PM
4+5=8?

Whoops. I bumped the Vacant Properties rating from 4 to 5 and updated the total at the bottom but not the "Safety"  subtotal above. It's fixed now.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: hbelkins on June 03, 2014, 10:22:59 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 03, 2014, 08:31:22 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 03, 2014, 07:52:18 PM

I think many people in Virginia, especially the southwestern portion, would disagree with you.  I certainly do. I was at a press conference with a Virginia state trooper from Wise, and he was complaining about how far it is to Richmond and how long it takes to get there. He was noting how he's closer to Frankfort and Charleston, and maybe even Nashville or Raleigh, than he is Richmond.


where would you put the capital?  Virginia is oddly shaped, with its spur to the southwest.  further to the south would cause it to move away from the population centers that define its being the south end of the northern megaplex.  further north or east and it would alienate the west of the state even more. 

further west is the only choice that would have some merit, but I happen to disagree.  Lynchburg may be a bit more geographically logical, but then you'd get people from the populated northern and eastern part of Virginia (which would now include Richmond) complaining.

I guess some would make the same argument for Topeka, even though geographically Salina would probably make more sense. Salina would be too far from Kansas City or Lawrence.

Quote from: SP Cook on June 03, 2014, 08:17:49 PM
■Violent Crime - (0-5 points) - 1.  Along with nearby Huntington, bombed out by meth and crack addicts.
■Property Crime - (0-5 points) - 2.  Only the core downtown during daylight hours, and the middle class Kanawha City and ultra-rich South Hills sections are safe.  Rest of town is a place you do not go.

Charleston never struck me as an unsafe place. Of course I have not really been off the numbered routes (60, 119, 21, 61, 25, 114, 601, etc.) but I never really felt uneasy anywhere -- unlike some sections of Louisville and Cincinnati I've been in.

I guess I see Charleston as being one big area with South Charleston, Dunbar, Institute, St. Albans, etc. included, and the main drag (US 60) through St. Albans appeared more seedy to me than anyplace I've been in Charleston proper.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Zeffy on June 03, 2014, 10:43:15 PM
Apparently, Trenton is an exciting place according to a list published by Movoto.com.

http://www.movoto.com/blog/top-ten/most-exciting-places-in-new-jersey/

I will give it props for mentioning all the reenactments that Trenton does, as well as mentioning a fine Jersey product known as Pork Roll.. yummy! But it got a high nightlife rating? The city turns into a ghost-town past dark, and noone should be out there.

Anyway, onto the lists. Trenton's score has been combined into one from My and SteveG1988's scores by averaging the scores.

Worst (Currently):
1. Charleston, WV - 32
2. (tie) Harrisburg, PA - 48
2. (tie) Sacramento, CA - 48
3. (tie) Springfield, IL - 54
3. (tie) Trenton, NJ - 54 [57, 51]  :thumbdown:
4. Providence, RI - 62 points
5. Hartford, CT - 64 points

Best (Currently):
1. Honolulu, HI - 93 points
2. Montpelier, VT - 92 points
3. Boise, ID - 91 points
4. Annapolis, MD - 86 points
5. Boston, MA - 78 points

This result was obtained from multiple entries about the same city. The numbers in the [brackets] are the original final scores.

Not bad! More entries are always welcome, and remember, just because someone posted one for your capital, doesn't mean you cannot as well!

Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Alps on June 03, 2014, 11:55:25 PM
ALBANY
+5 bonus for safety rating between 10 and 15
Total: 65
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Alps on June 04, 2014, 12:07:10 AM
JUNEAU
+10 bonus for safety rating between 15 and 20
Total: 58

P.S. Zeffy, when you're listing the bottom five, if you have ties, it should be 1. 2. 2. 4. 4., and done. The bottom five should not have seven unless there are multiple ties for 4th or 5th place.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: pianocello on June 04, 2014, 12:13:58 AM
I've only stopped in Des Moines once (all other times were just passing through), so I'll do what I can. This isn't going to be complete.

Location: 9 - The center of the state is somewhere in Story County, about 20 miles north of Des Moines. For a state that's roughly 200 x 300 miles, that's close enough. Off the top of my head, I think it also lines up with the population center of the state in the 1850s.

Significance: 5 - Insurance is big in Des Moines, and it never hurts to be the capital of the state with the first presidential caucuses.

Public Perception: 5 - People from other states view Des Moines as a small town (generally), people from rural Iowa view Des Moines as a bustling metropolis (generally), and people from other urban centers in Iowa view it as just another city (generally). Interpret that how you will.

Future: 9 - Des Moines has established itself as state capital and insurance boomtown (the Hartford of the West, according to some), two distinctions that likely won't go anywhere anytime soon.

Unfortunately, I don't know enough about opportunities, safety, landmarks, or family-friendliness to include in this post.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: triplemultiplex on June 04, 2014, 12:58:39 AM
We've got a lot of Wisconsinites on AARoads, but I'll take the first crack at Madison.

Location: 8/10
While not near the center of the state (that would be up in Wood County), Madison is easy to get to from most places and is sort of the crossroads of Wisconsin.  It's a reasonable trip from the state's population centers.

Aesthetics: 9/10
Madison is a vibrant, growing city with lots of offer visitors and residents alike.  Tons of parks, extremely bikeable, outstanding nightlife and the lakes are a huge asset unique among state capitals.

Opportunities: 10/10
Lots of stuff going on there.  UW plays a huge role in that with their large bioscience program.  Everything from genetics to agriculture.  Relevent to our hobby, there are a lot of geospatial opportunities there.  The company I work for is based in Madison, for example.

Significance: 6/10
There are more historically significant places in Wisconsin.  Madison's location was chosen specifically to be the capital before statehood.  So everything historic that has happened there happened because it was the capital.

Safety: 18/20
There's very little violent crime in Madison and I never hear much about property crime.  Abandoned buildings are few and far between.  There are no "ghetto" areas.  I'll dock it two points for any ruckus caused by drunk college students.

Public Perception: 8/10
This one is always going to be biased by one's own politics.  Madison is a very liberal city so if that rubs you the wrong way, so will the city at times.  I imagine some of my more conservative fellow cheeseheads will jump at the chance to point out everything they don't like about Madison.  I'll only give 8 because sometimes the city gets in its own way and most people are going to bitch about the traffic.

Landmarks: 6/10
The famous buildings and such are mostly related to the state government or UW.  The capitol building itself is basically a knock-off of the one in Washington and its rotunda is the second largest in the US, after its role model.

Family-Friendliness: 8/10
The low crime, numerous parks and bikeablity are all great assets for raising families.  As far as I'm aware, the public school system in Madison is pretty good for a city of a quarter million.  With the University right there, they have easy access to a steady stream of newly minted, enthusiastic young teachers.  UW is always ranked highly among public universities in the nation, so much so that your kid better have his or her shit together to get in.  Because it has this huge college and vibrant population of young adults, there will be some drunken rowdiness to deal with at night.  So just like the safety category, I'll dock it two points because of the drunks.

Future: 10/10
There's a lot of momentum behind the city, no matter the political climate.  In a knowledge-driven economy, any city with a big university will always have a strategic advantage.  In larger cities, it might not be as noticeable, but Madison's size means UW is a huge influence.  Madison is not completely surrounded by incorporated suburbs so it can continue annexing new land to the west and east for the time being.  I have high confidence in the city's continued success and growth.

Total score: 81/100
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: on_wisconsin on June 04, 2014, 01:42:37 AM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 04, 2014, 12:58:39 AMSafety: 18/20
There's very little violent crime in Madison and I never hear much about property crime.  Abandoned buildings are few and far between.  There are no "ghetto" areas.  I'll dock it two points for any ruckus caused by drunk college students.

I completely agree, except for the crime part. Madison actually has a few spots one would not want to find ones self walking alone at night through (Allied Dr, Meadowood/ Raymond Rd, Badger Rd, south Park St, and most of the Northport Dr area). However, these areas are relatively isolated and are not near any touristy or visitor centric places. The city also has a very visible, significant homeless population (for its size) and most of said people spend there time on the streets surrounding the Capitol (The Square), City-County Bldg, and State Street. Most of the shelters and services are coincidentally located right around there as well. 
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: SP Cook on June 04, 2014, 06:51:52 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 03, 2014, 10:22:59 PM


Charleston never struck me as an unsafe place. Of course I have not really been off the numbered routes (60, 119, 21, 61, 25, 114, 601, etc.) but I never really felt uneasy anywhere -- unlike some sections of Louisville and Cincinnati I've been in.

I guess I see Charleston as being one big area with South Charleston, Dunbar, Institute, St. Albans, etc. included, and the main drag (US 60) through St. Albans appeared more seedy to me than anyplace I've been in Charleston proper.

I was doing just the town, my opinions would be almost exactly the opposite if I were doing the whole area.  In fact, I cannot think of a "bad" area outside the city, including St. Albans, which is just a lower middle class working people suburb that looks a bit down because it got bypassed by the interstate and is kinda stuck in the 50s in terms of when everything was built. 

Off the numbered routes is where the action is.  Other than middle class Kanawha City, ultra rich South Hills and few other pockets, you just don't walk around, even in the daytime.  Downtown changes as soon as the sun goes down. 
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: english si on June 04, 2014, 07:08:55 AM
Quote from: briantroutman on June 03, 2014, 09:26:05 PMSACRAMENTO
If states were ranked by the percentage of residents who have visited the state capital, I would guess California would be at or near the bottom.
Isn't a lot of the this the Harrisburg, or Jefferson City trap that there are two large population centres, and it is in neither of them? I guess, unlike the other two I mention, it's not on (Harrisburg), or not far from (Jefferson City), the way between the major met areas so scores lower there.

Obviously not a State Capital, but LONDON

I make that 82
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: roadman65 on June 04, 2014, 09:26:39 AM
Tallahassee

2/10- Location- Given where it is at being in the Panhandle of the State, and not at all on the main peninsula, it is way off center.

10/10 Popularity- Given it is much as a college town as much as a government seat for our fine state, FSU is a well known college with good athletic teams so it is pretty much known throughout our country.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: empirestate on June 04, 2014, 10:20:29 AM
Quote from: Zeffy on June 03, 2014, 02:09:28 PM
TRENTON

  • Location (0-10 points) - 5 - Center of New Jersey, easy access to many other major cities and towns, but not much else. 
  • Aesthetics (0-10 points) - 4 - Historic colonial-era architecture, but dilapidated buildings make you wonder about safety. 
  • Opportunities (0-10 points) - 7 - There are a lot of places to work in Trenton, or the surrounding suburbs of Ewing and Hamilton. 
  • Significance (0-10 points) - 9 - The Battle of Trenton was considered by many to be the turning point of the American Revolution, and after the Colonists captured the city, they would go on to win many more battles and eventually the war.
  • Safety (0-20 points - 5

    • Vacant Properties (0-10 points) - 2 - Um, Trenton, you have a lot of buildings that just sit there, attracting unsavory types of people.
    • Crime (0-10 points) - 3

      • Violent Crime - (0-5 points) - 1 - It's either a shooting or a stabbing it seems in Trenton.
      • Property Crime - (0-5 points) - 2 - Lock your doors at night people! And keep a weapon handy by the bed too.
  • Public Perception (0-10 points) - 6 - Used to be great, now is a ghetto. However, more people seem to care about the capital of New Jersey than before. 
  • Landmarks (0-10 points) - 8 - The Trenton Makes Bridge is an iconic landmark in the city, as is the Trenton Battle Monument. 
  • Family-Friendliness (0-10 points) - 6 - Great if you want to take your family to visit the state capitol or the old Barracks downtown, but other than that the other neighborhoods aren't the best places to be wandering around.
  • Future (0-10 points) - 7 - The city has created it's own website (http://www.trenton250.org) to gather input from residents on how to improve the city. It has been selected to receive federal aid in a pilot program under the Obama administration.  I think the city could really turn around.

TOTAL: 57  :-(

Not sure how to avoid this, but you've used safety as a determinant in several other categories besides its own–aesthetics, public perception, and family-friendliness–accounting for 29 of the 43 points you marked off. They are necessarily related factors, to be sure, but it looks to me like safety gets disproportionately weighted, especially with the bonus system.

Of course, if you're creating a ranking of the safety of capital cities, then great! But I thought you were looking for something more all-encompassing.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Zeffy on June 04, 2014, 10:58:25 AM
Quote from: empirestate on June 04, 2014, 10:20:29 AM
Not sure how to avoid this, but you've used safety as a determinant in several other categories besides its own–aesthetics, public perception, and family-friendliness–accounting for 29 of the 43 points you marked off. They are necessarily related factors, to be sure, but it looks to me like safety gets disproportionately weighted, especially with the bonus system.

Of course, if you're creating a ranking of the safety of capital cities, then great! But I thought you were looking for something more all-encompassing.

The reasoning I have behind safety is, given the chance to live there, would your life be great, or, would it be miserable hoping every passing hour you don't get shot/stabbed/robbed, etc? Safety's also huge, because a lot of people tend to tour capital cities looking to learn more about their state. I know for a fact no one would dare walk around north of the Battle Monument in Trenton, let alone any place that's not in the Downtown area of the city. Aesthetics could mean that the city itself looks great, but in reality, it's a crime-ridden ghetto. Perception is just what people think of the city, not what actually is. Family-friendliness does encompass safety lightly, but it's more about the activities that kids and their families could do. Examples in my capital would be touring the State House, visiting the Old Barracks Museum, the State Library and the Planetarium, the William Trent House, etc.

Safety is rated as high as it is, because from what I've read the biggest issues with living/visiting cities is the crime rates. If those are high, you don't get too many visitors unless it's an event with police protection, and people living there generally are doing so because they are forced to.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: J N Winkler on June 04, 2014, 11:06:20 AM
I will comment in general terms on Topeka, but I don't really feel comfortable picking numbers out of the air for a rating system.

Topeka is about 60 miles west of the eastern border in a state that is roughly 250 miles north-south and 400 miles east-west, so while it is fairly near the center of population of the state, it is quite a long drive from western Kansas and there is a long-standing perception that politicians in Topeka are not really interested in that region or in rural affairs generally.

Topeka has some buildings that are of architectural interest, such as the State Capitol, Cedar Crest (not normally open to the public), and the Kansas History Center, but as a whole the urban landscape is fairly bland.  The State Capitol and the Kansas History Center are long-standing AAA "star" (now "GEM") tourist attractions.  Another important visitor destination is the Brown v. Board of Education national historical park at the former Monroe Elementary in what was and still is the black part of town.  (Kansas never had full-bore segregation, but the Topeka BOE is part of the case caption because it exercised an option--then permitted by state law--to operate segregated elementary schools.)

Compared to other large metropolitan areas in the state, Topeka is sleepy.  It is an excellent place to raise a family because the cost of living is low, but the local economy is in a state of long-term stagnation since landmark employers like the AT&SF business offices and the Menninger Clinic have either closed or transferred operations elsewhere.  State employment in Kansas is low-paid and insecure.  Like most second-tier cities, Topeka is in the position of having to give generous business incentives in order to attract expanded private-sector employment, and job growth successes (such as the recent opening of a new factory to produce M&Ms and other packaged candies) tend to be few and far between.  Among incorporated cities in Kansas, Topeka is in long-term relative population decline, and was overtaken by Overland Park a decade or two ago as the state's second most populous city.

The public safety picture in Topeka is mediocre at best.  For example, the murder rate is about 12 per 100,000 population, versus 6 per 100,000 in Wichita and 4.8 per 100,000 in the US as a whole.  (The US rate compares very unfavorably with Canada and the EU-15, where murder rates range from 1.6 per 100,000 in Canada and 1.2 per 100,000 in the UK down to 0.8 per 100,000 in Spain.)  By this measure, however, Topeka still does much better than Kansas City (22.6 per 100,000 population).

Topeka public schools are fair but, unlike the Shawnee Mission schools, not superlative in national terms.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: J N Winkler on June 04, 2014, 11:24:22 AM
Quote from: Zeffy on June 04, 2014, 10:58:25 AMThe reasoning I have behind safety is, given the chance to live there, would your life be great, or, would it be miserable hoping every passing hour you don't get shot/stabbed/robbed, etc?

I don't think there are very many large cities (even ones with very high average crime rates, like Detroit) where casual visitors or college-educated middle-class residents in stable employment would live in that kind of fear.  Crime is very anisotropic by neighborhood.  For example, I live in a ZIP code which has had just 18 murders in the last 25 years for a population of about 44,000, or an average of 1 per 2445 persons.  The countywide average over the same time period is 1 per 642 and in the worst part of the city it is 1 in 79.  An individual's vulnerability to violent crime also varies considerably according to whether he or she is "citizen" or "street."

QuoteIf those are high, you don't get too many visitors unless it's an event with police protection, and people living there generally are doing so because they are forced to.

A lot of that has to do with income potential net of living expenses.  In very high-crime cities it is often hard to buy into safe neighborhoods using the income that is available from the sorts of jobs that are easy to find in the city.  In Detroit, for example, you can buy a house for about $3,000 but a house in a safe neighborhood costs considerably more, and jobs that pay enough to allow you to afford such a house are scarce.

In such cities it is actually much easier to come as a visitor since you are not entangled in this housing/employment tradeoff.  I never worry about going to Kansas City although its murder rate is almost four times Wichita's.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Zeffy on June 04, 2014, 11:47:33 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 04, 2014, 11:24:22 AM
I don't think there are very many large cities (even ones with very high average crime rates, like Detroit) where casual visitors or college-educated middle-class residents in stable employment would live in that kind of fear.  Crime is very anisotropic by neighborhood.  For example, I live in a ZIP code which has had just 18 murders in the last 25 years for a population of about 44,000, or an average of 1 per 2445 persons.  The countywide average over the same time period is 1 per 642 and in the worst part of the city it is 1 in 79.  An individual's vulnerability to violent crime also varies considerably according to whether he or she is "citizen" or "street."

I'm aware that crime is generally targeted crime, and not random crime, but at the same time, I've seen examples of crime that aren't fueled by gang affiliation, drugs, etc. From what I've read, even wearing a color of a gang in a city is a generally bad idea (well that sucks, that eliminates 1/4 of my wardrobe), and some people are targeted based on race, they can be a citizen with a perfect track record, yet they still get targeted. From past experience, black gang members don't appreciate normal white kids strolling through their hood, often getting loud and issuing threats to said person. Granted, rule #1 of urban cities is do not establish eye contact with anyone and don't stop moving unless you have to. And even then, if your life is in danger, keep moving anyway. My visits in Trenton have not been anything that I would describe as harrowing, but homeless people among others asking for money is nothing short of discomforting.

Quote from: J N Winkler on June 04, 2014, 11:24:22 AM
A lot of that has to do with income potential net of living expenses.  In very high-crime cities it is often hard to buy into safe neighborhoods using the income that is available from the sorts of jobs that are easy to find in the city.  In Detroit, for example, you can buy a house for about $3,000 but a house in a safe neighborhood costs considerably more, and jobs that pay enough to allow you to afford such a house are scarce.

In such cities it is actually much easier to come as a visitor since you are not entangled in this housing/employment tradeoff.  I never worry about going to Kansas City although its murder rate is almost four times Wichita's.

There are some decently high-priced (for a city like Trenton) properties in the south Trenton neighborhoods, ($85k+), while some houses that are in disrepair (generally in the northern section of the city) can be bought for 1/6 of that price. As for visitors to Trenton, the high crime rate and very high presence of street gangs is enough deter visitors unless the event is being watched by the police department. It is a little ridiculous that people think visiting a populated area of the city puts their lives in danger just because of the high crime rate. I've been to Trenton 11 times, and every time I've never seen a crime or heard the pop of a gunshot. I think part of the fear could be of the perception that the media provides of Trenton, and the countless articles of "x shot in Trenton", and if the victim survives the shooting (as is often because gangsters aim is... questionable at best), they are mostly uncooperative with police, because usually, they aren't a model citizen.

Of course, in regards to Trenton, as mentioned before, they have launched a website (http://www.trenton250.org (http://www.trenton250.org)) to gather inputs on residents and visitors to Trenton to improve the city. It's a great first step to show the people that the city cares about how it's perceived and what goes on in the city.

As said before, my rating system is always open to changes and suggestions by people.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Pete from Boston on June 04, 2014, 12:07:22 PM

Quote from: Zeffy on June 04, 2014, 10:58:25 AM
[Family-friendliness does encompass safety lightly, but it's more about the activities that kids and their families could do. Examples in my capital would be touring the State House, visiting the Old Barracks Museum, the State Library and the Planetarium, the William Trent House, etc.

Family-friendly just for visits/tourism, or for living there?  These examples are great for the former, but for the latter there is much more involved, namely good schools, environmental quality, access to health care, parental/social support systems, affordability, etc.    A lot of these are general "quality of life" indicators, which seems to only be represented in the original question by safety factors.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Zeffy on June 04, 2014, 12:24:50 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on June 04, 2014, 12:07:22 PM
Family-friendly just for visits/tourism, or for living there?  These examples are great for the former, but for the latter there is much more involved, namely good schools, environmental quality, access to health care, parental/social support systems, affordability, etc.    A lot of these are general "quality of life" indicators, which seems to only be represented in the original question by safety factors.

Generally tourism for this category. However that is something I did overlook before, and I will try to figure out how to fix the rating system to distinguish between tourism / living in the city.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 04, 2014, 01:15:27 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on June 04, 2014, 11:47:33 AMrule #1 of urban cities is do not establish eye contact with anyone and don't stop moving unless you have to.

I've taken photos in some pretty terrible neighborhoods (hey, it's where the old signs are) and I've never had any trouble with a friendly small wave and nod of acknowledgement.  the residents are people, not wild animals.  I'm okay with being perceived as eccentric but harmless.  the worst that's ever happened to me is I've been offered drugs.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: hbelkins on June 04, 2014, 01:47:48 PM
I've always been a bit skeptical about using murder rates as a judge of the safety of anywhere, simply because if you are in an area with a small population and you have a couple of murders, that's going to skew the rate upwards. Let two people get killed in a year in a small town and it jacks the rate up a lot higher than it might be in, say, a larger city where, say, 20 people get killed. The reality is probably that the smaller town is safer, but the statistics might show otherwise.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: formulanone on June 04, 2014, 02:21:30 PM

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 04, 2014, 01:15:27 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on June 04, 2014, 11:47:33 AMrule #1 of urban cities is do not establish eye contact with anyone and don't stop moving unless you have to.

I've taken photos in some pretty terrible neighborhoods (hey, it's where the old signs are) and I've never had any trouble with a friendly small wave and nod of acknowledgement.  the residents are people, not wild animals.  I'm okay with being perceived as eccentric but harmless.  the worst that's ever happened to me is I've been offered drugs.

Yeah, pretty much this...I've had much more problems with suburban folk with nothing better to do than to harass you, and virtually no problems within inner cities. There's a big difference between strolling though a city and not making a scene, blending in with the area, keeping your wits about you, and intentionally making yourself a mark or running off at the mouth.

Violent Crime typically does not happen to the rare passerby, it many cases it haunts and finds those who habitually co-exist with those of a violent nature or live recklessly.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Zeffy on June 04, 2014, 02:47:12 PM
Quote from: formulanone on June 04, 2014, 02:21:30 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 04, 2014, 01:15:27 PM
I've taken photos in some pretty terrible neighborhoods (hey, it's where the old signs are) and I've never had any trouble with a friendly small wave and nod of acknowledgement.  the residents are people, not wild animals.  I'm okay with being perceived as eccentric but harmless.  the worst that's ever happened to me is I've been offered drugs.

Yeah, pretty much this...I've had much more problems with suburban folk with nothing better to do than to harass you, and virtually no problems within inner cities. There's a big difference between strolling though a city and not making a scene, blending in with the area, keeping your wits about you, and intentionally making yourself a mark or running off at the mouth.

Violent Crime typically does not happen to the rare passerby, it many cases it haunts and finds those who habitually co-exist with those of a violent nature or live recklessly.

Well, I would agree with you, but one of my 11 visits to Trenton a group of (thugs) men who were sitting on a porch started pointing at me, not really getting violent but as I strolled by their houses not paying attention to them, one of them remarked "look at that <censored> just walking through our turf like nothing's wrong", while another said "man leave that <censored> alone he's probably just visiting with his family, I ain't got no beef with him, he ain't wearing colors, he ain't acting tough, besides that kid doesn't even look like he's a threat". I guess that was reassuring. I didn't turn to acknowledge them or say anything, I just minded my own business and moved on. That was my only bad experience in Trenton, and, to be fair, I did wander a bit out of the downtown area.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 04, 2014, 03:00:20 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on June 04, 2014, 02:47:12 PM
Well, I would agree with you, but one of my 11 visits to Trenton a group of (thugs) men who were sitting on a porch started pointing at me, not really getting violent but as I strolled by their houses not paying attention to them, one of them remarked "look at that <censored> just walking through our turf like nothing's wrong", while another said "man leave that <censored> alone he's probably just visiting with his family, I ain't got no beef with him, he ain't wearing colors, he ain't acting tough, besides that kid doesn't even look like he's a threat". I guess that was reassuring. I didn't turn to acknowledge them or say anything, I just minded my own business and moved on. That was my only bad experience in Trenton, and, to be fair, I did wander a bit out of the downtown area.

the second one has the attitude of 99% of people.

that last 1% is sociopathic and is gonna show up regardless of race, environment, upbringing, etc. 
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: J N Winkler on June 04, 2014, 03:42:24 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 04, 2014, 01:47:48 PMI've always been a bit skeptical about using murder rates as a judge of the safety of anywhere, simply because if you are in an area with a small population and you have a couple of murders, that's going to skew the rate upwards. Let two people get killed in a year in a small town and it jacks the rate up a lot higher than it might be in, say, a larger city where, say, 20 people get killed. The reality is probably that the smaller town is safer, but the statistics might show otherwise.

This is why it is helpful to look at total homicides over a number of years.  The Wichita Eagle chose a 25-year period in its latest foray into database journalism, which is where my numbers come from.  As it happens, the Wichita road meet in July 2013 started and ended in the ZIP code that had 1 homicide per 2445 persons, but featured multiple stops in the part of the city that had 1 homicide per 79 persons.  More refined analysis showed that many of the deaths in this latter part of town happened at certain premises near arterial intersections which have had bars (or poolrooms with liquor availability) in operation for much of the 25-year period.  Nearly all of those places are now boarded up, and with the exception of 13th and Grove, I don't think any of them was on our driving route.  We did drive along a part of Ninth Street which used to have a reputation as an open-air emporium for illegal stuff.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: DTComposer on June 04, 2014, 03:46:51 PM
I'm enjoying reading these, but have a couple of thoughts:

-First, on safety/crime, since these have quantifiable numbers available from law enforcement sources, couldn't we just decide what numbers/statistics go into this and have a subjective rather than objective score? Subjective opinions could go into perception, aesthetics, etc.

-Also, since we have the opportunity for 50 (or more) different people creating these rankings, isn't it disingenuous to stack them up against each other? For example, on significance, Trenton is given a 9 based on that events during the American Revolution, without reference to anything since, but Sacramento is given a 4, based on events that fueled the Gold Rush and Western migration, but because "nothing" has happened since. Seems to me those scores should be the same or similar based on those statements.

That said, it's a fun exercise, and I'll come up with a second opinion on Sacramento.

Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: empirestate on June 04, 2014, 03:54:24 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on June 04, 2014, 11:47:33 AM
Of course, in regards to Trenton, as mentioned before, they have launched a website (http://www.trenton250.org (http://www.trenton250.org)) to gather inputs on residents and visitors to Trenton to improve the city. It's a great first step to show the people that the city cares about how it's perceived and what goes on in the city.

As said before, my rating system is always open to changes and suggestions by people.

I only meant to suggest that, if safety is the main focus of your question (and that's perfectly fine if it is), maybe consider rolling "aesthetics", "perception" and the rest into the "safety" section as sub-categories. Just going by your own answers for Trenton, that seemed to be your inclination. But it could also be that Trenton in particular has such safety issues that they pervade other aspects of evaluating the city, which is also cool.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Zeffy on June 04, 2014, 04:04:26 PM
Okay, so, after thinking about the rating system a bit, I would like to know if the following changes make this list less safety oriented and more about the overall feelings of the capital city in it's current shape. As much as I love history, I feel like this will give a lot of cities an advantage over one another, so I've removed it entirely. Here's the changes...


1  Refers to the % of abandoned properties, or property values in general
2  Encompasses both violent and non-violent (property) crimes

My intention was to not focus solely on safety. I want to focus on all the aspects of our state capitals, and I believe this list is a much closer step to that vision.

Also, for everyone who submitted data before, I am perfectly fine with you not wanting to edit it, I should've probably considered this before I posted. Still, if you wouldn't mind, it would be great!
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Pete from Boston on June 04, 2014, 04:39:07 PM

Quote from: formulanone on June 04, 2014, 02:21:30 PM

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 04, 2014, 01:15:27 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on June 04, 2014, 11:47:33 AMrule #1 of urban cities is do not establish eye contact with anyone and don't stop moving unless you have to.

I've taken photos in some pretty terrible neighborhoods (hey, it's where the old signs are) and I've never had any trouble with a friendly small wave and nod of acknowledgement.  the residents are people, not wild animals.  I'm okay with being perceived as eccentric but harmless.  the worst that's ever happened to me is I've been offered drugs.

Yeah, pretty much this...I've had much more problems with suburban folk with nothing better to do than to harass you, and virtually no problems within inner cities. There's a big difference between strolling though a city and not making a scene, blending in with the area, keeping your wits about you, and intentionally making yourself a mark or running off at the mouth.

Violent Crime typically does not happen to the rare passerby, it many cases it haunts and finds those who habitually co-exist with those of a violent nature or live recklessly.

I've had my share of generally skittish, paranoid, troubled, or just plain defensive people come up and demand to know what I was doing taking pictures that might or might not have included them.

I've had about the same number of people attempt to pose or ask to have their picture taken. 

Takes all kinds, as they say. 
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Zeffy on June 04, 2014, 05:24:53 PM
My new ratings for Trenton...

TRENTON


FINAL SCORE: 60
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Scott5114 on June 04, 2014, 05:47:56 PM
OKLAHOMA CITY:

TOTAL: 68
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 04, 2014, 06:57:30 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 04, 2014, 05:47:56 PM
Intuitive to memorize by six year olds shackled by brain-dead curricula - 10 (we are the freebie, kids love us)


I never trusted my intuition on this one.  the only other freebie is Indianapolis; everywhere else, assuming X City or another variant is either a very bad pothole (New York, Kansas), or some obscure town that no one outside of it has heard of (California, Oregon, etc).  hell, Kansas City isn't even the capital of Missouri!
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: getemngo on June 04, 2014, 07:42:18 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on June 04, 2014, 02:47:12 PM
one of them remarked "look at that <censored> just walking through our turf like nothing's wrong", while another said "man leave that <censored> alone he's probably just visiting with his family, I ain't got no beef with him, he ain't wearing colors, he ain't acting tough, besides that kid doesn't even look like he's a threat".

They didn't call you a hep cat, did they?  :-o
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: mefailenglish on June 04, 2014, 11:06:58 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 04, 2014, 09:26:39 AM
Tallahassee

2/10- Location- Given where it is at being in the Panhandle of the State, and not at all on the main peninsula, it is way off center.
Well, when Florida was first established, the two main population areas were St Augustine and Pensacola.  Tally is about halfway between them.

Now the population center is much farther down the peninsula, but would you really want to move the capital into the Orlando area?  Isn't that enough of a mess as is?

I left Tallahassee almost 15 years ago and have only passed through a couple of times since then, so I'll let someone else finish it up if they want.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Zeffy on June 04, 2014, 11:34:54 PM
Quote from: getemngo on June 04, 2014, 07:42:18 PM
They didn't call you a hep cat, did they?  :-o

Yes, but I've never actually cared what someone called me. Words don't hurt me. I've been called every deragatory term there is and never cared. If you don't like what I do / look like, too fucking bad.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Pete from Boston on June 05, 2014, 07:13:52 AM

Quote from: getemngo on June 04, 2014, 07:42:18 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on June 04, 2014, 02:47:12 PM
one of them remarked "look at that <censored> just walking through our turf like nothing's wrong", while another said "man leave that <censored> alone he's probably just visiting with his family, I ain't got no beef with him, he ain't wearing colors, he ain't acting tough, besides that kid doesn't even look like he's a threat".

They didn't call you a hep cat, did they?  :-o

Hep cat?  You mean while smoking a jazz cigarette?   
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on June 05, 2014, 07:32:58 AM
Indianapolis Revised

Quote from: Zeffy on June 04, 2014, 04:04:26 PM


  • Location (10) -
  • Aesthetics (8) -
  • Opportunities (6) -

    • Public School System (3)
    • Employment Opportunities (3)
  • Safety (3) -

    • Blight1 (2) -
    • Crime2 (1) -
  • Public Perception (4) -
  • Landmarks (7) -
  • Tourism (7) -
  • Transportation Network (5)
  • Environment (5)
  • Future (7) -

1  Refers to the % of abandoned properties, or property values in general
2  Encompasses both violent and non-violent (property) crimes


Total = 62 points
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: MikeTheActuary on June 05, 2014, 04:59:12 PM
I'm going to disagree with the rating of Hartford earlier in the thread.


Total: 41

However, as is the case in many different surveys, it should be noted that Hartford suffers because Connecticut is different than other parts of the country, with the entire state being incorporated into one of 169 towns.   Hartford's never been able to annex surrounding areas, and in fact has had parts of its former self split off to form new, neighboring towns.

So, when you compare Hartford to other cities, on a "within city limits basis", there's a bit of an unfair comparison.   For apples-apples, you almost have to look at Hartford versus "downtown and inner neighborhoods" of other cities, or you have to compare metro area to metro area.

If rating the Hartford metro area...it'd score about a 60 on this scale.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: gonealookin on June 05, 2014, 06:36:30 PM
Carson City, NV
Total score:  39.  Certainly the worst in the west, and I'd think bottom 5 in the country, though comparisons to larger cities are difficult.  There's just nothing to recommend about it.  Reno has a few of the same drawbacks but is by and large a decent place; go there instead.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: golden eagle on June 05, 2014, 07:52:59 PM

JACKSON, MS


-Location (0-10 points) Centrally located, with straight shots to surrounding big cities. Location: 9
-Aesthetics (0-10 points) Horrible! I've been on dirt roads in the Delta that's better than some of these streets. But we just passed a 1-cent sales tax earlier this year to help alleviate this. Aesthetics: 3
-Opportunities (0-10 points)   
◦Public School System (0-5 points) White flight (and subsequent "other" flight) has done a lot of damage. Still some good schools in the system, though. Public schools: 4
◦Employment Opportunities (0-5 points) Really good when it comes to health-related employment. Someone decent in other fields. I'll score it a 4.
-Safety (0-10 points) - How crazy do things tend to get in your capital city?
◦Blight1 (0-5 points) - Lots of inner city blight, but it's slowly getting better. I'll give it a 3.
◦Crime2 (0-5 points) - Lots of violent crime. I don't feel scared, but do watch where you are. I'll be brutal and give it a 1.
-Public Perception (0-10 points) -Many outsiders feel we don't stand a chance. Go on any TV station's Facebook page and any story about us, people will spin it to something negative. Despite this, 5.
-Landmarks (0-10 points) - Does your capital have any famous landmarks that distinguish it from other cities? Not really. I'll give it a 3.
-Tourism (0-10 points) - Needs improvement here, but it's OK. This gets a 5.
-Transportation Network (0-10 points) - It's pretty easy getting around. While great to have, this city isn't married to interstates. City bus system could better. A 7 in my book.
-Environment (0-10 points) Very humid summers, but the air is relatively good. We don't deal with a lot of snow. Whatever falls usually melts in no time. We were all caught off guard when Katrina struck here. Overall, a 8.
-Future (0-10 points) I really believe we will. There are things that are slowly coming together here. Really need to work on the crime situation. Since I'm an optimist, I'll score the future as a 10.


Overall score: 62
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: kkt on June 06, 2014, 01:53:53 AM
I'm going to disagree with the location score for Sacramento above.  I think it's a 10.  It's near the center of California's land mass both north to south and east to west.  It's at the intersection of a transcontinental east-west route, and a lower-48 north-south route, and a second all-season route to the east besides.  It's also a port, with good water navigation to hinterlands north and south as well as to the sea.  Where else could you put the capital with these advantages?  Maybe Stockton, because it's closer to the center of population, but doesn't have even one all-season route going east, and is getting pretty far from Redding and Red Bluff.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: formulanone on June 06, 2014, 07:55:30 AM

Quote from: mefailenglish on June 04, 2014, 11:06:58 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 04, 2014, 09:26:39 AM
Tallahassee

2/10- Location- Given where it is at being in the Panhandle of the State, and not at all on the main peninsula, it is way off center.
Now the population center is much farther down the peninsula, but would you really want to move the capital into the Orlando area?  Isn't that enough of a mess as is?

If Florida's capital was at the geographic middle, then New Port Ritchie would be about right. But realistically, if it were in the population "center", in would probably wind up somewhere around Okeechobee or Sebring. State capitals don't really move anymore.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: empirestate on June 06, 2014, 12:00:10 PM
Well, I'll contribute what I can for Albany...


Total: 69 - Probably about as high as any capital city will score, barring a few outliers (like Boise, apparently).
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: golden eagle on June 07, 2014, 10:03:03 PM
Quote from: formulanone on June 06, 2014, 07:55:30 AM

Quote from: mefailenglish on June 04, 2014, 11:06:58 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 04, 2014, 09:26:39 AM
Tallahassee

2/10- Location- Given where it is at being in the Panhandle of the State, and not at all on the main peninsula, it is way off center.
Now the population center is much farther down the peninsula, but would you really want to move the capital into the Orlando area?  Isn't that enough of a mess as is?



If Florida's capital was at the geographic middle, then New Port Ritchie would be about right. But realistically, if it were in the population "center", in would probably wind up somewhere around Okeechobee or Sebring. State capitals don't really move anymore.

It seems like Orlando is more centrally located; thus, it would make more logical sense. It seems better to reach Orlando from other areas of the state easier than Tallahassee.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: Zeffy on June 09, 2014, 12:18:37 AM
Sorry about not responding for a few days. Thursday night I became violently ill when I projectile vomited my entire dinner up for no reason at all. The next day I was feeling shitty to not really check the forum except for using my phone, and Saturday I was just being lazy.  :bigass:

Anyway, thank you for submitting your opinions on your capitals! I'll incorporate them into my spreadsheet later today when I wake up.
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 09, 2014, 12:43:22 AM
Annapolis, Maryland:

    Location (0-10 points) - 10 (on the Chesapeake Bay, has (sometimes congested) freeway connections to Baltimore and Washington, D.C.)
    Aesthetics (0-10 points) - 10 (as quaint as can be)
    Opportunities (0-10 points) -
        Public School System (0-5 points) 5 Anne Arundel Co. public schools are some of the best in the state
        Employment Opportunities (0-5 points) 3.5 not so much in the city
                                                                       (most state offices are not in Annapolis), but plenty if you
                                                                         want to drive or take the bus to D.C. or to Fort Meade
    Safety (0-10 points) -
        Blight1 (0-5 points) -  3 (some blighted public housing in the city)
        Crime2 (0-5 points) -  4 (most crime in the city seems to be in the housing projects, otherwise pretty safe)
    Public Perception (0-10 points) -
    Landmarks (0-10 points) - 10 (oldest state capitol building in use, the Naval Academy, plenty of quaintness, the Bay and the Bay Bridge (nearby))
    Tourism (0-10 points) - 10
    Transportation Network (0-10 points) - 8 (some congested spots,
                                                                 and a few city streets are (IMO) dangerously and badly designed)
    Environment (0-10 points) - 7 (Bay's health needs a lot of improving)
    Future (0-10 points) - 9 (IMO, the state capitol and the Naval Academy will always be there)
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: RG407 on June 15, 2014, 11:39:42 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 04, 2014, 09:26:39 AM
Tallahassee

2/10- Location- Given where it is at being in the Panhandle of the State, and not at all on the main peninsula, it is way off center.

10/10 Popularity- Given it is much as a college town as much as a government seat for our fine state, FSU is a well known college with good athletic teams so it is pretty much known throughout our country.

I'll try to expand on this...
Title: Re: How would you rate your state capital?
Post by: DandyDan on June 16, 2014, 03:40:59 AM
Since no one has done anything for Lincoln, Nebraska, I guess I will have to, even though I may have no idea what I'm talking about: