http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2014/10/04/arizona-highway-signs-in-metric-units-may-change/16724615/
Arizona highway signs in metric units may change
Associated Press 3 p.m. MST October 4, 2014
TUCSON – North of the U.S.-Mexico border, a relatively barren stretch of an Arizona highway is lined with road signs that tell drivers how many kilometers they are from their destination – not how many miles.
The markers from Nogales to Tucson are a relic of a failed Carter administration pilot program that aimed to convince Americans to adopt the system of measure in use across much of the rest of the world.
The roughly 60-mile stretch (or about 100 kilometers) is the only continuous highway in the U.S. with metric signs, and it's the subject of a long-simmering spat over whether they should be changed back to the standard system.
"When I'm driving, I definitely can't do that math," said Nick Rodriguez, a 24-year-old who lives in Rio Rico.
Some who agree with Rodriguez took a shot at changing the signs four years ago when the state, which oversees them, received $1.5 million in federal stimulus funding.
The Arizona Department of Transportation at the time said the signs were outdated and needed to be replaced with ones that are brighter and easier to read. "You get wear and tear on them. Obviously, they're out in the heat in Arizona. Eventually we're going to have to replace those signs," spokesman Dustin Krugel said.
They also said the new signs would be in miles.
The plan sparked vocal opposition that helped stall the replacement project. Area business owners said new signs in miles would change the exit numbers they advertise. The highway is measured in kilometers, so road markers and exit numbers would change, they said.
"It had a lot of opposition because people felt it was something that relates to tourism," Jim DiGiacomo, president of the Green Valley-Sahuarita Chamber of Commerce, said. "The hotels and businesses would have to change all of their info."
Mexico also uses the metric system and many in the area consider the signs a hospitality measure for Mexican tourists who visit Tucson and Phoenix. The Tucson Hispanic Chamber of Commerce said in August that Mexican nationals spend about $1 billion each year in shopping and tourism in Pima County.
The need to change approximately 400 signs still stands, but the state doesn't have the funds to replace them, Krugel said.
Next time around, however, the department plans on seeking public comment before deciding whether the new signs will still be in kilometers or miles.
"Ultimately we got a lot of feedback from the public that they didn't want the signs replaced. When we re-examine this issue in the future we're gonna get community feedback to find out what the people want through that corridor," Krugel said.
There likely will be a significant group that urges keeping things around I-19 just as they are. "Personally, I think it's neat that my guests ask me why (the signs) are in metric," said Jim Green, owner of The Inn at San Ignacio in Green Valley. "All of the tourists we're talking to, there's never been an instance where they were bothered because they weren't in miles."
Angel Fernandez, in his eclectic furniture and lighting fixture store, La Cucaracha de Tubac, agreed, using an old Spanish expression: "Si no apesta, no la muevas" or "If it doesn't stink, don't move it."
This was even in the news in the Netherlands today.
Boooooooooooooo!
:ded: :pan: :banghead:
This stupid country...
Could they possibly redo it using miles, but allow the exit numbers themselves to stay the same? Or do the exit numbers HAVE to follow what milepost they are at? Like all actual distance signs use miles, but the exit numbers stay whatever they are.
Quote from: Sonic99 on October 06, 2014, 01:29:41 AM
Could they possibly redo it using miles, but allow the exit numbers themselves to stay the same? Or do the exit numbers HAVE to follow what milepost they are at? Like all actual distance signs use miles, but the exit numbers stay whatever they are.
Why not? Delaware 1 has the same thing. Mileposts along the road and exit numbers in French..er..Metric.
Quote from: Brandon on October 06, 2014, 09:45:22 AM
Why not? Delaware 1 has the same thing. Mileposts along the road and exit numbers in French..er..Metric.
Oh Lord. Let's NOT use Delaware as the model agency for anything. Sequential numbering on I-95, mixing metric (or worse, not removing it) on DE 1, and then integer mileposts using D10-1 signs on say DE 14 between the Maryland State line and Harrington.
There are mile markers posted along I-19 already. They're just installed at a 90 degree angle, with the numbers facing the road. Between Ajo Way and I-10, everything is based on mileage except the exit numbers.
I think the posts and exit numbers should be in standard units just because that is what the United States uses. I don't see mile posts in Mexico on 15D, because Mexico uses the metric system.
Just to prove my point the signs in the US on I-19 aren't in Spanish. They are in English because that is what is spoken in the US. Same for Mexico. They're signs are in Spanish because Spanish is spoken there. An exception to this rule are signs relating directly to tourists. Ex - permit returns. Kilometer posts in the US aren't relating to tourists. They're from a failed metric conversion from years ago. Alto signs at customs is okay because the directly help foreign tourists. (Or stop signs o the Mexican side.)
A couple thoughts:
1) While I have no doubt that over the entirety of the US-Mexico border, there are more US tourists going to Mexico than vice versa, and the general flow of dollars is going south, not north, that's absolutely not the case along the I-19 corridor. Tucson is a destination for the fairly large Mexican upper-class. Go to the mall on Saturday in Tucson and you can't find a parking space because the mall is full of Sonora (saw too many to count on any given day when I lived down there), Sinaloa (10ish a day), and even Jalisco (2-3 a day) plates, with wealthy Mexicans inside buying high end goods not easily attainable in Mexico to take back to Hermosillo, Culiacan, and even as far down as Guadalajara. The resort I worked at typically had about 20% of its occupied rooms at any given point occupied by rich Mexicans up to go shopping. It's a huge, huge part of Tucson's economy, and in the case of the I-19/Mexico 15D corridor, it's a place where the money is flowing north, not south by a wide margin. American tourists don't drive to Hermosillo generally- they go to Rocky Point, but not via I-19. There would be no reason to post English unit signs on Mexico 15D, because not many non-Spanish speaking Americans go down there. If local business owners feel that it's welcoming to the Mexican community to have signs in metric, that's something they absolutely want to encourage.
2) Old white people make up the other group of non-residents using I-19 .These folks head down to Tubac or Nogales for lunch, and they're looking for a "Mexico" experience without actually having to go to Mexico, where they are certain they will be immediately robbed and beheaded. Having signs in kilometers adds to that touristy experience, making them feel more like they're on an adventure, without having to risk doing anything they might find scary. The Green Valley and Nogales are heavily dependent on tourism and international trade. There's a little bit of agriculture down there, but tourists are where the easy money is. If local business owners feel that this helps draw tourists to the area, that's something that should absolutely be encouraged.
Now, I'm not sure if I buy the argument that road sign units make a difference in tourism, but this is one of those cases where I think it's fair to defer to local business owners. Tourism is a huge part of the economy down there, and if the leaders of that critical industry down there feel that having signs in metric gives them an advantage, then they absolutely should remain in place. The only compelling argument for changing them is that "we use miles" - but nobody has really demonstrated how not having the signage in miles actively hurts anybody. Obviously we have standards as a country for a reason, but in this case the metric signs are already there, so there's room to allow some leeway.
Quote from: corco on October 08, 2014, 07:22:38 PM
Obviously we have standards as a country for a reason, but in this case the metric signs are already there, so there's room to allow some leeway.
I believe the MUTCD allows metric measurements (believe it or not). But I'm not going to find the specific rule at 2 am.EDIT: Oh wait, that's not what you were trying to say. :sleep: no more posting past 2 am, self.
FWIW, I couldn't find any text in the MUTCD that says distance measurements have to be in English units (ft, mi) or can't be in metric units.
The Associated Press article quoted in the OP does not contain any new information. Arizona DOT announced its intention to change I-19 back to metric units in 2004, but all they actually did at the time was to push the start of metric signing down to the SR 86 (Ajo Way) exit as part of the I-10/I-19 trumpet-to-wye conversion. Then, on March 16, 2012, they awarded a construction contract for a partial sign refurbishment on I-19 (H774101C), which touched only exit direction signs.
I really don't understand why this AP article was published since it doesn't contain any definite indication that ADOT has risen off the fence it sat on in 2012 by not touching any of the metric signs. The article really needs something that would give an informed reader a clear and precise idea why this issue is surfacing again, such as a quote from an ADOT representative saying categorically that the agency is again planning to dump the metric signs. What we have now is essentially a "Generalissimo Franco is still dead" piece.
For reference, a few of the past AARoads threads on this topic:
I-19: should it be metric or not? (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=5766.0)
Metric Clearview signs on I-19 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=5967.0)
Arizona freeway guide signing in general (mostly I-40, some discussion of I-19 metric, surviving button copy/Series E Modified, etc.) (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=5288.0)
Quote from: US 41 on October 07, 2014, 09:27:38 PM
I think the posts and exit numbers should be in standard units just because that is what the United States uses. I don't see mile posts in Mexico on 15D, because Mexico uses the metric system.
Just to prove my point the signs in the US on I-19 aren't in Spanish. They are in English because that is what is spoken in the US. Same for Mexico. They're signs are in Spanish because Spanish is spoken there. An exception to this rule are signs relating directly to tourists. Ex - permit returns. Kilometer posts in the US aren't relating to tourists. They're from a failed metric conversion from years ago. Alto signs at customs is okay because the directly help foreign tourists. (Or stop signs o the Mexican side.)
I second this. Even after hearing what corco said, I believe it would just be for the best if I-19 switched. I personally prefer miles over the metric system by a landslide, not to mention it's what the US uses. And it is indeed possible that it may confuse people who are used to miles.
I like the metric system better. Makes more sense to my ADHD brain. But with that being said I still think in miles and Fahrenheit. 33 degrees does not sound hot. Medication and science are pretty much all metric 5 the OTC dose for ibuprofen is 200 mg etc. I think of boiling being 100 degrees. and beverages are very metric, we all buy 2L bottles of soda( coke or pop depending on region) or 750 ml of booze. Speaking of coke illegal drugs are metric for the most part.
When I was in elementary school in the late 70s we learned metric. Because we were changing over in 1980. About the same time as Canada.
There are some metric nazis that want to forbid usage of expressions like "... a million miles away". Most British and Canadians think of things like height in feet and inches from what I have seen.
I understand most science and engineering fields are mostly metric although there are some odd inconsistencies to be found.
Aviation uses Celsius temperatures although (in the US) calculates most other quantities in English (Av gas in gal, passenger/cargo wt in lbs, etc)
Healthcare is (usually) metric in body weight and medication dosing but uses English for pressures (mmHg), except for airway pressures (cmH2O). Temp is F in most settings but is C in most critical care units and some Emergency depts.
I'm sure there are other science-types on this forum who know of other instances of inconsistent usage.
Quote from: jwolfer on October 18, 2014, 03:29:11 PM
I like the metric system better. Makes more sense to my ADHD brain. But with that being said I still think in miles and Fahrenheit. 33 degrees does not sound hot. Medication and science are pretty much all metric 5 the OTC dose for ibuprofen is 200 mg etc. I think of boiling being 100 degrees. and beverages are very metric, we all buy 2L bottles of soda( coke or pop depending on region) or 750 ml of booze. Speaking of coke illegal drugs are metric for the most part.
When I was in elementary school in the late 70s we learned metric. Because we were changing over in 1980. About the same time as Canada.
There are some metric nazis that want to forbid usage of expressions like "... a million miles away". Most British and Canadians think of things like height in feet and inches from what I have seen.
I remember the aborted shift to metric; it was much ballyhooed in the mid-70s that the United States was going to go metric. I think that it went by the wayside for two reasons: 1. All the older voters were screaming that by God, they were happy with their inches and feet and miles and pints and that they weren't going on any newfangled metric system, and they kicked their feet and stomped up a storm, and 2. between the oil crises and double-digit inflation and the stench from Watergate, the country really had much more important things to worry about than whether or not we measured the distance from Los Angeles to San Francisco in miles or kilometers. There was a half-hearted effort, and then metric in the US went
queep and died.
Quote from: US 41 on October 07, 2014, 09:27:38 PM
I think the posts and exit numbers should be in standard units just because that is what the United States uses. I don't see mile posts in Mexico on 15D, because Mexico uses the metric system.
Just to prove my point the signs in the US on I-19 aren't in Spanish. They are in English because that is what is spoken in the US. Same for Mexico. They're signs are in Spanish because Spanish is spoken there. An exception to this rule are signs relating directly to tourists. Ex - permit returns. Kilometer posts in the US aren't relating to tourists. They're from a failed metric conversion from years ago. Alto signs at customs is okay because the directly help foreign tourists. (Or stop signs o the Mexican side.)
Careful with that fallacy: The US does not have an official language. It just happens that the large majority of US residents speak English, which makes it seem as though English is the official language.
It reminds me of the joke of the guy who's standing in line at the store behind a woman speaking a foreign language on her cell phone. She ends the call, and the guy says,
"I didn't want to be rude, but really, if you want to speak Spanish, you should go back to Mexico."
She sizes him up, and replies, "Sir, I was speaking Navajo. If you want to speak English, you should go back to England."
Quote from: hm insulators on October 21, 2014, 03:52:55 PM
Quote from: jwolfer on October 18, 2014, 03:29:11 PM
I like the metric system better. Makes more sense to my ADHD brain. But with that being said I still think in miles and Fahrenheit. 33 degrees does not sound hot. Medication and science are pretty much all metric 5 the OTC dose for ibuprofen is 200 mg etc. I think of boiling being 100 degrees. and beverages are very metric, we all buy 2L bottles of soda( coke or pop depending on region) or 750 ml of booze. Speaking of coke illegal drugs are metric for the most part.
When I was in elementary school in the late 70s we learned metric. Because we were changing over in 1980. About the same time as Canada.
There are some metric nazis that want to forbid usage of expressions like "... a million miles away". Most British and Canadians think of things like height in feet and inches from what I have seen.
I remember the aborted shift to metric; it was much ballyhooed in the mid-70s that the United States was going to go metric. I think that it went by the wayside for two reasons: 1. All the older voters were screaming that by God, they were happy with their inches and feet and miles and pints and that they weren't going on any newfangled metric system, and they kicked their feet and stomped up a storm, and 2. between the oil crises and double-digit inflation and the stench from Watergate, the country really had much more important things to worry about than whether or not we measured the distance from Los Angeles to San Francisco in miles or kilometers. There was a half-hearted effort, and then metric in the US went queep and died.
I have a feeling a lot of people out there who objected to it didn't seem to realize that there was nothing prohibiting you from continuing to use the old units in your day-to-day life if you so choose, except for out on the highway–and even there, what's so hard about a metric speed limit?
Consider how many cookbooks were (and are) written in the old units. It's ludicrous to think anyone would throw those away. Yes, the package you buy at the store would be in grams or kilograms instead of ounces or pounds, but so what? If the recipe calls for 8 ounces of something, you just use your existing kitchen scale to measure out 8 ounces of whatever it is. (If it's the typical American recipe that uses volume for dry ingredients instead of weight, you just scoop out two cups or whatever.) About the only time it would really matter at the store would be when you have to have an employee give you a certain amount of something, like today when I asked for a pound of sockeye at the seafood counter, but even then, I've been to quite a few grocery stores in Canada where the meat counter had a conversion chart posted for employees for when someone asks for a pound or whatever.
(Heh. My digital kitchen scale uses either ounces or grams. I often convert recipes to grams because it's more precise.)
Quote from: Bickendan on November 07, 2014, 04:14:49 PM
Quote from: US 41 on October 07, 2014, 09:27:38 PM
I think the posts and exit numbers should be in standard units just because that is what the United States uses. I don't see mile posts in Mexico on 15D, because Mexico uses the metric system.
Just to prove my point the signs in the US on I-19 aren't in Spanish. They are in English because that is what is spoken in the US. Same for Mexico. They're signs are in Spanish because Spanish is spoken there. An exception to this rule are signs relating directly to tourists. Ex - permit returns. Kilometer posts in the US aren't relating to tourists. They're from a failed metric conversion from years ago. Alto signs at customs is okay because the directly help foreign tourists. (Or stop signs o the Mexican side.)
Careful with that fallacy: The US does not have an official language. It just happens that the large majority of US residents speak English, which makes it seem as though English is the official language.
It reminds me of the joke of the guy who's standing in line at the store behind a woman speaking a foreign language on her cell phone. She ends the call, and the guy says,
"I didn't want to be rude, but really, if you want to speak Spanish, you should go back to Mexico."
She sizes him up, and replies, "Sir, I was speaking Navajo. If you want to speak English, you should go back to England."
No we do not have a de jure official language. English is the de facto official language. Our laws, media, public discourse etc are all in English. Knowing English is vital to be fully engaged in the USA, just as Portuguese is vital in Brazil. If I were to emigrate to Brazil, I would learn Portuguese and not expect them to learn English.
There were various indigenous languages there before Portugal colonized . also there are large numbers of immigrants there, they learned Portuguese and their dependents are now native speakers. I am not sure if Portuguese is codified as official but it does not matter, the reality is Portuguese is the language of Brazil.
And just to clarify I am not one of those " speak 'merican" types. I speak write and read Spanish fluently. I think everyone should learn a second language at the very least, it broadens mind and outlook.
To bring this discussion back to the metric system. Metric is the official measurement system of the United States. And if I remember correctly it has been since 1837. Pounds, miles ounces etc all of those are legally defined in metric values
Quote from: jwolfer on November 07, 2014, 04:56:45 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on November 07, 2014, 04:14:49 PM
Quote from: US 41 on October 07, 2014, 09:27:38 PM
I think the posts and exit numbers should be in standard units just because that is what the United States uses. I don't see mile posts in Mexico on 15D, because Mexico uses the metric system.
Just to prove my point the signs in the US on I-19 aren't in Spanish. They are in English because that is what is spoken in the US. Same for Mexico. They're signs are in Spanish because Spanish is spoken there. An exception to this rule are signs relating directly to tourists. Ex - permit returns. Kilometer posts in the US aren't relating to tourists. They're from a failed metric conversion from years ago. Alto signs at customs is okay because the directly help foreign tourists. (Or stop signs o the Mexican side.)
Careful with that fallacy: The US does not have an official language. It just happens that the large majority of US residents speak English, which makes it seem as though English is the official language.
It reminds me of the joke of the guy who's standing in line at the store behind a woman speaking a foreign language on her cell phone. She ends the call, and the guy says,
"I didn't want to be rude, but really, if you want to speak Spanish, you should go back to Mexico."
She sizes him up, and replies, "Sir, I was speaking Navajo. If you want to speak English, you should go back to England."
No we do not have a de jure official language. English is the de facto official language. Our laws, media, public discourse etc are all in English. Knowing English is vital to be fully engaged in the USA, just as Portuguese is vital in Brazil. If I were to emigrate to Brazil, I would learn Portuguese and not expect them to learn English.
There were various indigenous languages there before Portugal colonized . also there are large numbers of immigrants there, they learned Portuguese and their dependents are now native speakers. I am not sure if Portuguese is codified as official but it does not matter, the reality is Portuguese is the language of Brazil.
And just to clarify I am not one of those " speak 'merican" types. I speak write and read Spanish fluently. I think everyone should learn a second language at the very least, it broadens mind and outlook.
To bring this discussion back to the metric system. Metric is the official measurement system of the United States. And if I remember correctly it has been since 1837. Pounds, miles ounces etc all of those are legally defined in metric values
Interesting that you bring up Brazil and Portuguese. The lab I work in collaborates with a lab in Brazil, and I've visited Brazil a couple times over the past few years. I learned some Portuguese. I wouldn't call myself fluent, but apparently I've got a good enough accent that our collaborator told me I sound like a redneck rather than a foreigner to the Brazilians.
One of the things I hear from the "speak 'merican" types is complaints about accommodations made for foreign language speakers (e.g. "Press 1 for English", and signs in both languages). While I was in Brazil, I noticed that despite most of the people there being monolingual Portuguese speakers, it's very common for signage to be in English, Spanish, and Portuguese. In fact in the São Paulo airport, some of the signage was in English first, then Spanish, then Portuguese.
Quote from: jwolfer on November 07, 2014, 04:56:45 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on November 07, 2014, 04:14:49 PM
Quote from: US 41 on October 07, 2014, 09:27:38 PM
I think the posts and exit numbers should be in standard units just because that is what the United States uses. I don't see mile posts in Mexico on 15D, because Mexico uses the metric system.
Just to prove my point the signs in the US on I-19 aren't in Spanish. They are in English because that is what is spoken in the US. Same for Mexico. They're signs are in Spanish because Spanish is spoken there. An exception to this rule are signs relating directly to tourists. Ex - permit returns. Kilometer posts in the US aren't relating to tourists. They're from a failed metric conversion from years ago. Alto signs at customs is okay because the directly help foreign tourists. (Or stop signs o the Mexican side.)
Careful with that fallacy: The US does not have an official language. It just happens that the large majority of US residents speak English, which makes it seem as though English is the official language.
It reminds me of the joke of the guy who's standing in line at the store behind a woman speaking a foreign language on her cell phone. She ends the call, and the guy says,
"I didn't want to be rude, but really, if you want to speak Spanish, you should go back to Mexico."
She sizes him up, and replies, "Sir, I was speaking Navajo. If you want to speak English, you should go back to England."
No we do not have a de jure official language. English is the de facto official language. Our laws, media, public discourse etc are all in English. Knowing English is vital to be fully engaged in the USA, just as Portuguese is vital in Brazil. If I were to emigrate to Brazil, I would learn Portuguese and not expect them to learn English.
There were various indigenous languages there before Portugal colonized . also there are large numbers of immigrants there, they learned Portuguese and their dependents are now native speakers. I am not sure if Portuguese is codified as official but it does not matter, the reality is Portuguese is the language of Brazil.
And just to clarify I am not one of those " speak 'merican" types. I speak write and read Spanish fluently. I think everyone should learn a second language at the very least, it broadens mind and outlook.
To bring this discussion back to the metric system. Metric is the official measurement system of the United States. And if I remember correctly it has been since 1837. Pounds, miles ounces etc all of those are legally defined in metric values
Is English really the de jure official language in Southern Arizona? Tucson has been not part of the United States a lot longer than it has been part of the United States. I liken that area to pre-bill 101 Montreal. You can certainly get by just fine in English in Tucson, but you're going to miss an awful lot if you don't at least know a little Spanish. In large pockets of Tucson, business is mainly conducted in Spanish. Nogales, Arizona is definitely primarily Spanish speaking.
And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
No it is de jure.. Miami is the same.. English is a second language in south Florida. Southern AZ is right on the border with Mexico and it was mexico until the 1850s
Quote from: jwolfer on November 07, 2014, 08:49:55 PM
No it is de jure.. Miami is the same.. English is a second language in south Florida. Southern AZ is right on the border with Mexico and it was mexico until the 1850s
It is not de jure nor de facto in some parts. It has been part of the USA longer than Mexico. Mexico was not independent from Spain until 1848
Nothing is wrong with anyone speaking Spanish or conducting business in whatever language they desire. In any frontier there is mix of languages.
By my count we now have 10 posts in a 22-post thread that deal with the merits of metric units and bilingualism in general, not on I-19 specifically. Is Generalissimo Franco still dead?
Quote from: jwolfer on November 07, 2014, 09:01:43 PM
Quote from: jwolfer on November 07, 2014, 08:49:55 PM
No it is de jure.. Miami is the same.. English is a second language in south Florida. Southern AZ is right on the border with Mexico and it was mexico until the 1850s
It is not de jure nor de facto in some parts. It has been part of the USA longer than Mexico. Mexico was not independent from Spain until 1848
Nothing is wrong with anyone speaking Spanish or conducting business in whatever language they desire. In any frontier there is mix of languages.
There has been a permanent Spanish population in Tucson since 1692 though. The US bought it in the Gadsden Purchase, but there weren't really English speakers there until after 1900, and not en masse until about 1950 when air conditioning became reasonable.
Quote from: Bickendan on November 07, 2014, 04:14:49 PM
Quote from: US 41 on October 07, 2014, 09:27:38 PM
I think the posts and exit numbers should be in standard units just because that is what the United States uses. I don't see mile posts in Mexico on 15D, because Mexico uses the metric system.
Just to prove my point the signs in the US on I-19 aren't in Spanish. They are in English because that is what is spoken in the US. Same for Mexico. They're signs are in Spanish because Spanish is spoken there. An exception to this rule are signs relating directly to tourists. Ex - permit returns. Kilometer posts in the US aren't relating to tourists. They're from a failed metric conversion from years ago. Alto signs at customs is okay because the directly help foreign tourists. (Or stop signs o the Mexican side.)
Careful with that fallacy: The US does not have an official language. It just happens that the large majority of US residents speak English, which makes it seem as though English is the official language.
It reminds me of the joke of the guy who's standing in line at the store behind a woman speaking a foreign language on her cell phone. She ends the call, and the guy says,
"I didn't want to be rude, but really, if you want to speak Spanish, you should go back to Mexico."
She sizes him up, and replies, "Sir, I was speaking Navajo. If you want to speak English, you should go back to England."
However it is illegal to drive a semi or other commercial vehicle in the US if you cannot fluently speak and read english. Mexican truck drivers are arrested all the time for this. English may not be the official language officialy, but it is de facto. However it is legal to drive a car in the US even if you cant spaek and/or read english.
The hilarious thing is that this issue really has nothing to do with language or anything else. The choice of kilometers or miles is, in practice, a meaningless distinction. Exit numbers are arbitrarily tied to miles; they could just as well be sequential or measured in smoots. On advance distance signage, "2 km" means "I have a minute or so before I get to that exit" and "1 km" means "I have 30 seconds or so". Exactly the same thing that "1 mile" and "½ mile" mean in that context. Nobody is seriously going to miss their exit for because they thought it was 2000 feet further down the road than it really is; once you see a 1 km sign you start thinking "Oh, my exit is coming up soon" and looking for the ramp.
Quote from: corco on November 07, 2014, 10:45:30 PM
Quote from: jwolfer on November 07, 2014, 09:01:43 PM
Quote from: jwolfer on November 07, 2014, 08:49:55 PM
No it is de jure.. Miami is the same.. English is a second language in south Florida. Southern AZ is right on the border with Mexico and it was mexico until the 1850s
It is not de jure nor de facto in some parts. It has been part of the USA longer than Mexico. Mexico was not independent from Spain until 1848
Nothing is wrong with anyone speaking Spanish or conducting business in whatever language they desire. In any frontier there is mix of languages.
There has been a permanent Spanish population in Tucson since 1692 though. The US bought it in the Gadsden Purchase, but there weren't really English speakers there until after 1900, and not en masse until about 1950 when air conditioning became reasonable.
The Spanish speaking population of Tucson that can count themselves as descendants of the pre 1900 Spanish/Mexicans is a tiny proportion of the current Spanish speaking population. And I would make and educated guess that many people living in the Gadsden purchase area spoke a Native American language and not Spanish.
I know descendants of early Spanish settlers in St Augustine, with Spanish last names and everything. But they are Florida "cracker" . No one has spoken Spanish in nearly 200 years.
Quote from: jwolfer on November 07, 2014, 09:01:43 PM
It is not de jure nor de facto in some parts. It has been part of the USA longer than Mexico. Mexico was not independent from Spain until 1848
1821. 1848 was the U.S.-Mexico war.
About signage, it's not just a Mexico issue. It's every other country in the world except the U.K.
Quote from: kkt on December 02, 2014, 07:07:04 PM
Quote from: jwolfer on November 07, 2014, 09:01:43 PM
It is not de jure nor de facto in some parts. It has been part of the USA longer than Mexico. Mexico was not independent from Spain until 1848
1821. 1848 was the U.S.-Mexico war.
About signage, it's not just a Mexico issue. It's every other country in the world except the U.K.
You are right on the date. My point still stands though
Quote from: jwolfer on October 18, 2014, 03:29:11 PM
Speaking of coke illegal drugs are metric for the most part.
LOL!
If the highway is famous for being metric, keep it metric.
The simple way of dealing with this is to just put up "Old Exit" signs like PA did.
My apologies for bringing back a 10+ year-old thread, but the forum's search tool was uncooperative and Google's search suggests this might be the most appropriate thread for this.
The topic of de-metric-ifying I-19 is the focus of today's A-Hed column in the Wall Street Journal (gift link): https://www.wsj.com/politics/policy/america-first-trump-metric-highway-tucker-carlson-827758e6?st=o3sz8V&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
Quote"When you're driving in the United States, it should be unmistakably American—not modeled after foreign systems," said Nate Sizemore, a spokesman for the U.S. Department of Transportation. I-19 will be reviewed as part of the agency's "broader efforts to restore American standards and ensure our infrastructure is easy to understand and navigate."
A change would be welcome news to some conservative critics.
"They're not using gallons and miles in North Korea. They're using the metric system—so are Iran and China. I can't imagine why we'd want any of that in our country," Tucker Carlson said in an interview.
Carlson, a former Fox News host, said having a road that connects the U.S. and Mexico—it technically stops roughly 90 meters (about 300 feet) from the border—in kilometers is a national security risk.
"Everyone is talking about missile defense, the first line of defense is to confuse the enemy on the road," he said.
The White House didn't respond to a request for comment. Garin Groff, a spokesman for the Arizona Department of Transportation, said the road signs remained in the metric system because business owners opposed a state effort to change them in 2009.
The sentiment remains. Locals and visitors across the ideological spectrum say the government should leave their kilometers alone.
I'm not certain it's possible to directly address the arguments raised in the article for shifting I-19 to American customary units without opening a political can of worms...so I'm going to leave it as "it sounds like politicians may be pushing bureaucrats to think about this again".
That is one hell of a leap in logic to claim that kilometers represent a national security risk.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 30, 2025, 08:19:45 AMThat is one hell of a leap in logic to claim that kilometers represent a national security risk.
I laughed out loud at Carlson's remark and then it hit me that his audience takes him seriously.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 30, 2025, 08:19:45 AMThat is one hell of a leap in logic to claim that kilometers represent a national security risk.
Maybe in Britain, in the Napoleonic Wars, the use of French Imperial measurements were something that national security would be worried about, but the use of such anti-human measurements were not inherently a national security risk.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 30, 2025, 08:19:45 AMThat is one hell of a leap in logic to claim that kilometers represent a national security risk.
It does remind me of some of the rhetoric I've heard against SI/metric over the years. Just not that particular argument.
My church is just coming around to using metric to describe things in English-language publications (and conferences). Something about being America-centered. In a way, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a past effort to use the "American" system outside North America, something like a "priesthood measurement system". (It's what we tried to do with Boy Scouts for a while there.)
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 30, 2025, 08:19:45 AMThat is one hell of a leap in logic to claim that kilometers represent a national security risk.
Well, after all, adopting metric measurements would lead to the USA having "foreign rulers."
"When you're driving in the United States, it should be unmistakably American—not modeled after foreign systems."
On the one hand, it would be very strange to keep driving south into Mexico and find signage in miles instead of kilometers along Carr. Fed. 15.
But on the other hand, US Customary units are modeled after a foreign system. So...
Quote from: kphoger on April 30, 2025, 09:25:06 AM....
But on the other hand, US Customary units are modeled after a foreign system. So...
To some extent, they're also legally defined in terms of the "foreign system" Carlson decries. The legal definition of an inch, for example, is 25.4 mm.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 30, 2025, 08:19:45 AMThat is one hell of a leap in logic to claim that kilometers represent a national security risk.
It tracks considering it comes from Tucker Carlson.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on April 30, 2025, 09:31:54 AMIt tracks considering it comes from Tucker Carlson.
You're a liberal. We get it. Jeez.
Quote from: kphoger on April 30, 2025, 09:41:20 AMQuote from: LilianaUwU on April 30, 2025, 09:31:54 AMIt tracks considering it comes from Tucker Carlson.
You're a liberal. We get it. Jeez.
I'm even worse. I'm a full on leftist.
With that said, for the non-political aspects of this, it would probably be better for consistency's sake to have I-19 in imperial, but I feel like locals would probably object to it since it's been in metric for so long.
They traditionally have objected to calls for conversion. The article actually hit on the common arguments they have always brought up.
Quote from: US 41 on November 10, 2014, 09:19:29 AMHowever it is illegal to drive a semi or other commercial vehicle in the US if you cannot fluently speak and read english. Mexican truck drivers are arrested all the time for this.
As I perused 11 year old posts to get down to the new stuff, I saw this. Two days after an executive order was issued that requires commercial drivers to be able to speak English. Why the EO if it was already illegal? Or was it made legal sometime in the past decade?
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on April 30, 2025, 08:06:11 AMMy apologies for bringing back a 10+ year-old thread, but the forum's search tool was uncooperative and Google's search suggests this might be the most appropriate thread for this.
The topic of de-metric-ifying I-19 is the focus of today's A-Hed column in the Wall Street Journal (gift link): https://www.wsj.com/politics/policy/america-first-trump-metric-highway-tucker-carlson-827758e6?st=o3sz8V&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
Quote"When you're driving in the United States, it should be unmistakably American—not modeled after foreign systems," said Nate Sizemore, a spokesman for the U.S. Department of Transportation. I-19 will be reviewed as part of the agency's "broader efforts to restore American standards and ensure our infrastructure is easy to understand and navigate."
A change would be welcome news to some conservative critics.
"They're not using gallons and miles in North Korea. They're using the metric system—so are Iran and China. I can't imagine why we'd want any of that in our country," Tucker Carlson said in an interview.
Carlson, a former Fox News host, said having a road that connects the U.S. and Mexico—it technically stops roughly 90 meters (about 300 feet) from the border—in kilometers is a national security risk.
"Everyone is talking about missile defense, the first line of defense is to confuse the enemy on the road," he said.
The White House didn't respond to a request for comment. Garin Groff, a spokesman for the Arizona Department of Transportation, said the road signs remained in the metric system because business owners opposed a state effort to change them in 2009.
The sentiment remains. Locals and visitors across the ideological spectrum say the government should leave their kilometers alone.
I'm not certain it's possible to directly address the arguments raised in the article for shifting I-19 to American customary units without opening a political can of worms...so I'm going to leave it as "it sounds like politicians may be pushing bureaucrats to think about this again".
...
Umm, WTF?
Is this satire?
They're serious?
...
Wow.
...
Are they going after DE 1 next? Or Puerto Rico? Or the metric speed limits on the Canadian border? Or the French signs on I-87?
(Also, I would say that this is the time it's appropriate to bump an old thread)
Seriously, this sounds like something from The Colbert Report.
^^^
Or any of the numerous random metric signs found here on State Highways in California from the 1970s?
Quote from: kphoger on April 30, 2025, 09:41:20 AMQuote from: LilianaUwU on April 30, 2025, 09:31:54 AMIt tracks considering it comes from Tucker Carlson.
You're a liberal. We get it. Jeez.
Like the other respondent, I lean way left of what passes for liberal in the US. Carlson's career exists to do one thing: fearmonger and keep a certain portion of the voter base irrationally angry at all times. It's a schtick that easily seen through. Any self respecting human should just disregard him as the guy who got mad about sexy M&M's
Quote from: LilianaUwU on April 30, 2025, 09:31:54 AMIt tracks considering it comes from Tucker Carlson.
Quote from: kphoger on April 30, 2025, 09:41:20 AMYou're a liberal. We get it. Jeez.
Quote from: kwellada on April 30, 2025, 01:14:55 PMLike the other respondent, I lean way left of what passes for liberal in the US. Carlson's career exists to do one thing: fearmonger and keep a certain portion of the voter base irrationally angry at all times. It's a schtick that easily seen through. Any self respecting human should just disregard him as the guy who got mad about sexy M&M's
My point is that none of it needed to be said. Let's keep the discussion roads-related, rather than signaling our own personal political alignments. What each of us thinks of Tucker Carlson is irrelevant.
Quote from: kwellada on April 30, 2025, 01:14:55 PMQuote from: kphoger on April 30, 2025, 09:41:20 AMQuote from: LilianaUwU on April 30, 2025, 09:31:54 AMIt tracks considering it comes from Tucker Carlson.
You're a liberal. We get it. Jeez.
Like the other respondent, I lean way left of what passes for liberal in the US. Carlson's career exists to do one thing: fearmonger and keep a certain portion of the voter base irrationally angry at all times. It's a schtick that easily seen through. Any self respecting human should just disregard him as the guy who got mad about sexy M&M's
I'm not really someone who follows mainstream news. What is this sexy M&M outrage about now?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 30, 2025, 01:21:49 PMQuote from: kwellada on April 30, 2025, 01:14:55 PMQuote from: kphoger on April 30, 2025, 09:41:20 AMQuote from: LilianaUwU on April 30, 2025, 09:31:54 AMIt tracks considering it comes from Tucker Carlson.
You're a liberal. We get it. Jeez.
Like the other respondent, I lean way left of what passes for liberal in the US. Carlson's career exists to do one thing: fearmonger and keep a certain portion of the voter base irrationally angry at all times. It's a schtick that easily seen through. Any self respecting human should just disregard him as the guy who got mad about sexy M&M's
I'm not really someone who follows mainstream news. What is this sexy M&M outrage about now?
It's irrelevant and nothing more needs to be said about it, but here: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/23/1150844961/tucker-carlsons-war-on-m-ms
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 30, 2025, 01:21:49 PMWhat is this sexy M&M outrage about now?
(https://i.imgur.com/WBqj4vL.png)
Quote from: Molandfreak on April 30, 2025, 01:26:23 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on April 30, 2025, 01:21:49 PMQuote from: kwellada on April 30, 2025, 01:14:55 PMQuote from: kphoger on April 30, 2025, 09:41:20 AMQuote from: LilianaUwU on April 30, 2025, 09:31:54 AMIt tracks considering it comes from Tucker Carlson.
You're a liberal. We get it. Jeez.
Like the other respondent, I lean way left of what passes for liberal in the US. Carlson's career exists to do one thing: fearmonger and keep a certain portion of the voter base irrationally angry at all times. It's a schtick that easily seen through. Any self respecting human should just disregard him as the guy who got mad about sexy M&M's
I'm not really someone who follows mainstream news. What is this sexy M&M outrage about now?
It's irrelevant and nothing more needs to be said about it, but here: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/23/1150844961/tucker-carlsons-war-on-m-ms
Yeah no, if this talking head subject to the topic of discussion today was worried about the female M&M not being sexy enough I would think it certainly speaks to credibility (or lack thereof).
From what little I've heard of this guy he sounds like quite the character and generally unsavory. Nothing discussed thus far in two articles he was cited in has really dissuaded me of that notion.
Quote from: kphoger on April 30, 2025, 01:20:00 PMMy point is that none of it needed to be said. Let's keep the discussion roads-related, rather than signaling our own personal political alignments. What each of us thinks of Tucker Carlson is irrelevant.
I agree that we should keep our own political leanings for the most part to ourselves. But in this case, if you're commenting about this topic and Tucker Carlson is quoted in the Wall Street Journal article referenced, personal opinions about the validity of his ideas are probably relevant to the conversation. Just my opinion.
If Tucker Carlson doesn't want to have his credibility questioned by roadgeeks, he shouldn't talk about roads.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on April 30, 2025, 09:31:54 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on April 30, 2025, 08:19:45 AMThat is one hell of a leap in logic to claim that kilometers represent a national security risk.
It tracks considering it comes from Tucker Carlson.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 30, 2025, 02:32:23 PMIf Tucker Carlson doesn't want to have his credibility questioned by roadgeeks, he shouldn't talk about roads.
Just as long as we're allowed to criticize, say, anything Justin Trudeau ever said about roads by retorting, "Of course it's illogical, considering it comes from Justin Trudeau".
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 30, 2025, 02:32:23 PMIf Tucker Carlson doesn't want to have his credibility questioned by roadgeeks, he shouldn't talk about roads.
I am tiptoeing out on the quoting-purple-text limb to dispute the premise that a media member, by talking about roads, should automatically expect to have their credibility questioned by roadgeeks. Pre-ruling out the possibility of a non-roadgeek having
credible commentary about roads just doesn't sit well with me. In fact, it seems like high time for a self-awareness check.
But I can feel this limb creaking already, so I'll scuttle back to the bole...
Quote from: kphoger on April 30, 2025, 02:54:41 PMQuote from: LilianaUwU on April 30, 2025, 09:31:54 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on April 30, 2025, 08:19:45 AMThat is one hell of a leap in logic to claim that kilometers represent a national security risk.
It tracks considering it comes from Tucker Carlson.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 30, 2025, 02:32:23 PMIf Tucker Carlson doesn't want to have his credibility questioned by roadgeeks, he shouldn't talk about roads.
Just as long as we're allowed to criticize, say, anything Justin Trudeau ever said about roads by retorting, "Of course it's illogical, considering it comes from Justin Trudeau".
One is the former PM of Canada, and one is open to the idea of a flat earth. I don't think the value of Tucker's opinion is lessened because he's seemingly conservative. The value of his opinion, to me, is lessened because of the conspiracy theories that he espouses.
I would've preferred if Interstate 19 had mileage-based exit numbers and distance signs. However, given Interstate 19 has had kilometer-based exit numbers and distance signs since it was first constructed, it is unlikely it will ever be converted (and the locals would stop any attempt to do so, anyway).
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 30, 2025, 03:11:35 PMQuote from: kphoger on April 30, 2025, 02:54:41 PMQuote from: LilianaUwU on April 30, 2025, 09:31:54 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on April 30, 2025, 08:19:45 AMThat is one hell of a leap in logic to claim that kilometers represent a national security risk.
It tracks considering it comes from Tucker Carlson.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 30, 2025, 02:32:23 PMIf Tucker Carlson doesn't want to have his credibility questioned by roadgeeks, he shouldn't talk about roads.
Just as long as we're allowed to criticize, say, anything Justin Trudeau ever said about roads by retorting, "Of course it's illogical, considering it comes from Justin Trudeau".
One is the former PM of Canada, and one is open to the idea of a flat earth. I don't think the value of Tucker's opinion is lessened because he's seemingly conservative. The value of his opinion, to me, is lessened because of the conspiracy theories that he espouses.
If Justin Trudeau decided to chime in on the status of metric based signage on I-19 then conjecture about the merits of his opinion would be fair game also.
But yeah, I don't think there is anything Tucker Carlson can do that will make me consider his opinions as valid. Dude seems like a weirdo that somehow has undue influence over others for some reason.
Quote from: kphoger on April 30, 2025, 02:54:41 PMQuote from: LilianaUwU on April 30, 2025, 09:31:54 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on April 30, 2025, 08:19:45 AMThat is one hell of a leap in logic to claim that kilometers represent a national security risk.
It tracks considering it comes from Tucker Carlson.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 30, 2025, 02:32:23 PMIf Tucker Carlson doesn't want to have his credibility questioned by roadgeeks, he shouldn't talk about roads.
Just as long as we're allowed to criticize, say, anything Justin Trudeau ever said about roads by retorting, "Of course it's illogical, considering it comes from Justin Trudeau".
Bringing up the past statements of a political figure to provide context to their opinion on roads is fair game. For example, if, say, Kathy Hochul were to say some road project were unnecessary, it would be OK to point out her actions in support of the NYC congestion charge as providing context to her opinions on an individual highway project.
As for Tucker Carlson, while I don't think we should have an extended discussion about every conservative political position he espouses, if his opinions are out there enough that people feel puts his credibility in the same category as Art Bell, then it's fair game to note that. Likewise if he has some sort of credentials in the transportation field that would indicate he speaks credibly on the issue, those should be noted too.
Nobody should swallow everything committed to print without judging the source. If something is posted to the forum about roads and the source is questionable, forum members should be free to note that. While I can't imagine anyone hasn't heard of Tucker Carlson at this point, theoretically someone who hasn't could exist, and that person should be able to use the comments of others to gauge how much relevance Mr. Carlson's opinion should be given in deciding their own.
It should be noted that the "no politics" rule has always been intended to be quite a bit looser when it comes to discussion of the actual transportation system, since that is the purpose of the site. (In particular, that means you are free to discuss anything Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy, or any of his predecessors in that office, says or does, so long as you follow the other site rules.)
Quote from: webny99 on April 30, 2025, 02:55:59 PMI am tiptoeing out on the quoting-purple-text limb to dispute the premise that a media member, by talking about roads, should automatically expect to have their credibility questioned by roadgeeks. Pre-ruling out the possibility of a non-roadgeek having credible commentary about roads just doesn't sit well with me. In fact, it seems like high time for a self-awareness check.
His credibility isn't being questioned because he's not a roadgeek, his credibility is being questioned because apparently he wants to fuck an M&M.
Quote from: Tucker CarlsonM&M's will not be satisfied until every last cartoon character is deeply unappealing and totally androgynous, until the moment you wouldn't want to have a drink with any one of them. That's the goal. When you're totally turned off, we've achieved equity. They've won.
Stupid sexy M&Ms.
Quote from: kphoger on April 30, 2025, 01:28:41 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on April 30, 2025, 01:21:49 PMWhat is this sexy M&M outrage about now?
(https://i.imgur.com/WBqj4vL.png)
That's not the correct M&M. Refer to this image, specifically the green M&M:
(https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/rockcms/2022-01/MMs-te-main-220120-bdd57a.jpg)
Quote from: Tucker CarlsonM&M's will not be satisfied until every last cartoon character is deeply unappealing and totally androgynous, until the moment you wouldn't want to have a drink with any one of them. That's the goal. When you're totally turned off, we've achieved equity. They've won.
It should be noted that the M&M in question (the green one) is not "androgynous" - the M&M is still completely female-presenting. All they did was de-gloss the lipstick and change out the boots for sneakers. Maybe Tucker has a boot fetish?
It should also be noted that the other female-presenting M&M (the brown one) didn't change (except maybe the glasses are a little bigger) - still wearing the low heels and giving a kinda librarian vibe. Maybe Tucker doesn't have a librarian fetish?
Regardless, the reason for questioning Tucker Carlson in the actual road-related matter is that, in reviving a decades-old debate that locals (the people who actually use the road the most) have already voiced their opinion on, and if enacted, would cost thousands and thousands of dollars when the administration is supposedly looking to cut needless spending, he cares less about the actual topic at hand than he does about rage-baiting both sides of the political spectrum, because that keeps him relevant (and paid).
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 30, 2025, 08:17:22 PMHis credibility isn't being questioned because he's not a roadgeek, his credibility is being questioned because apparently he wants to fuck an M&M.
And that's a fine reason (to the extent it's true, which we definitely don't need to debate), but that wasn't mentioned in your earlier post; only that by merely talking about roads, his credibility would be questioned by roadgeeks.
Then again, M&M's being media fodder was news to me...
I have no idea how Carlson's viewership statistics are post-Fox, but it seems like the Wall Street Journal and the author of this article are doing a lot of signal boosting.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 30, 2025, 03:19:54 PMI would've preferred if Interstate 19 had mileage-based exit numbers and distance signs. However, given Interstate 19 has had kilometer-based exit numbers and distance signs since it was first constructed, it is unlikely it will ever be converted (and the locals would stop any attempt to do so, anyway).
I'm sure those who live in Phoenix, Flagstaff and everywhere in between would object to the changing of a certain other Interstate's miles and exits to the normal scheme (0 to 146 instead of 194 to 340), so as a result, AZ has two quirky interstates, and they love it. Perhaps the threat of I-11 encroaching on I-19's route might have something to do with the conversion proposal, not that I'm saying it did.
Quote from: Molandfreak on April 30, 2025, 09:50:52 PMI have no idea how Carlson's viewership statistics are post-Fox, but it seems like the Wall Street Journal and the author of this article are doing a lot of signal boosting.
WSJ is owned by the parent organization of Fox. It's plausible that the author might want to help a former colleague out.
Quote from: Molandfreak on April 30, 2025, 09:50:52 PMI have no idea how Carlson's viewership statistics are post-Fox, but it seems like the Wall Street Journal and the author of this article are doing a lot of signal boosting.
The WSJ A-Hed column (which tends to focus on non-news or news-adjacent topics of quirky interests) actually has a surprising number (i.e., more than zero) of roadgeek or roadgeek-adjacent articles.
The A-Hed is how I learned about the old misc.transport.road USENET group back when it was viable, and how I learned that county counting wasn't just a weird hobby that my father and I engaged in.
Occam's Razor suggests that there's no need to read anything more into the decision to fill space with the I-19 story.
Every time I read bullshit like this, I feel like I'm viewing the out-takes of America.
But since many are both desperate for sequels and prequels, we allow these ragemonkeys spout millions of near-meaningless petty distractions, which signals that these kooks need a lot of ADHD medication as a chaser for their unquenchable thirst of attention.