The Atlantic: The Tax That Dare Not Be Hiked -
Gas prices are plunging, and the Highway Trust Fund is broke. After more than 20 years, why won't Congress just raise the fuel tax? (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/12/the-tax-that-dare-not-be-hiked/383428/?single_page=true)
QuoteIn theory, advocates of an infusion of spending to fix the nation's crumbling roads and bridges have found the perfect political moment.
QuoteFuel prices are plunging to their lowest level in years. The Highway Trust Fund is broke, and Congress faces a spring deadline to replenish it. The obvious answer–the only answer, according to many in Washington–is to raise the 18.4 cent-per-gallon gas tax, which hasn't gone up in more than 20 years. Since prices at the pump have dropped more than a dollar per gallon in some areas, drivers would barely notice the extra nickel they'd be forced initially to pay as a result of the tax hike. That wasn't true until recently: For years, the pocketbook punch of the Great Recession combined with gas prices that peaked above $4 made an increase both politically and economically untenable.
QuoteYet even with prices at a four-year low, the odds of Congress touching the gas tax are as long as ever. "I think it's too toxic and continues to be too toxic," said Steve LaTourette, the former Republican congressman best known for his close friendship with his fellow Ohioan, Speaker John Boehner. "I see no political will to get this done."
One reason why not is that people have a long term memory about gas prices. Most people who are old enough to vote are old enough to remember a time when gas prices all began with a 1, and a great many remember regularly seeing sub-$1 prices. It was that way for quite a long time and so in the collective mind of the public gasoline is still way too expensive, even with prices falling as far as they have.
Another reason why not is that given the current political weather in Washington, any and all taxes dare not be hiked.
A further reason why not is that there is some sentiment present that states should fund their own damn roads rather than relying on the federal government. Which is really interesting because congress has for a while loved using highway funding as a way to make states do things. Now there is a willingness among some to give up or diminish that power in order to dump the difficult job of having to raise taxes onto the states.
Quote from: Duke87 on December 09, 2014, 02:08:27 AM
A further reason why not is that there is some sentiment present that states should fund their own damn roads rather than relying on the federal government. Which is really interesting because congress has for a while loved using highway funding as a way to make states do things. Now there is a willingness among some to give up or diminish that power in order to dump the difficult job of having to raise taxes onto the states.
Or raise tolls, toy with per-mile fees, or otherwise raise funds for roads.
Not only do states have more flexibility than the Feds on paying for roads, but balanced-budget requirements generally limit their ability to dodge hard choices on transportation funding like the U.S. Congress is wont to do, so the states seem to be less allergic to gas tax increases than the Feds. Even in a state like Virginia, where anti-taxers control the legislature's lower house, they found a way to hold their noses and do a lot of hand-waving to let gas and other taxes go up, so they could at least feebly gnaw away at transportation shortfalls.
Quote from: Duke87 on December 09, 2014, 02:08:27 AM
One reason why not is that people have a long term memory about gas prices. Most people who are old enough to vote are old enough to remember a time when gas prices all began with a 1, and a great many remember regularly seeing sub-$1 prices. It was that way for quite a long time and so in the collective mind of the public gasoline is still way too expensive, even with prices falling as far as they have.
Most people have a better memory for gas prices than they do for inflation. Assuming a low price now of around $2.40, this equates roughly to $1.32 in 1990.
Now, $1.32 would have been considered somewhat high in 1990 (the First Gulf War spikes were to just over $2.00 in the City of New York, and that was outlandishly high), but it was 25¢ higher than normal.
Gas isn't going to cost $1.32 again, but it might cost $1.80, which is about a dollar in 1990 terms, a typical good price in those days. People will still prefer to feel that gas is much more expensive than they remember it, though, even though at that point it won't be. Even at current prices it's kind of a stretch to say gas is very expensive.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 09, 2014, 07:59:05 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on December 09, 2014, 02:08:27 AM
One reason why not is that people have a long term memory about gas prices. Most people who are old enough to vote are old enough to remember a time when gas prices all began with a 1, and a great many remember regularly seeing sub-$1 prices. It was that way for quite a long time and so in the collective mind of the public gasoline is still way too expensive, even with prices falling as far as they have.
Most people have a better memory for gas prices than they do for inflation. Assuming a low price now of around $2.40, this equates roughly to $1.32 in 1990.
Now, $1.32 would have been considered somewhat high in 1990 (the First Gulf War spikes were to just over $2.00 in the City of New York, and that was outlandishly high), but it was 25¢ higher than normal.
Gas isn't going to cost $1.32 again, but it might cost $1.80, which is about a dollar in 1990 terms, a typical good price in those days. People will still prefer to feel that gas is much more expensive than they remember it, though, even though at that point it won't be. Even at current prices it's kind of a stretch to say gas is very expensive.
Funny how folks forget that they pay at least 2-3 times as much in a grocery store or restaurant compared to 20 years ago, but gasoline is always considered a rip-off.
I still don't see how a one-cent per gallon increase, raised up incrementally every 2-3 years, is going to destroy the nest eggs and livelihoods of 300 million Americans.
To be fair, I haven't a clue how the excises are collected and distributed, and if it isn't penny-for-penny in the state where the fuel is purchased, there's the problem.
Sometimes, politicians are why we can't have nice things.
And sometimes voters are why we can't have nice things. Inflation-indexed gas tax was repealed here by referendum last month. Now, a) politicians afraid to touch the gas tax have to incrementally pass any increase, and b) they have a clear sense that voters are not only unafraid to vote against them for it, but are so motivated against gas tax that they'll circumvent the legislature if need be to push back against it.
We have the level of infrastructure maintenance we deserve, I'm afraid.
Quote from: formulanone on December 09, 2014, 10:17:02 AM
Funny how folks forget that they pay at least 2-3 times as much in a grocery store or restaurant compared to 20 years ago, but gasoline is always considered a rip-off.
....
What amuses me is how people complain about the price of gas while they blatantly waste it. There's a KFC/Taco Bell in the shopping center near my neighborhood. Invariably there will be 10 or 12 vehicles sitting on line waiting for the drive-thru merrily wasting gas while they idle, yet there will be no line at all inside. You could park, go inside, get your food "to go," and be back in your car driving away in less time than it would take to reach the speaker thing where you place your order at the drive-thru.
When I pick up my wife at the subway station in the evening, some people will sit there idling their vehicles for 10 or 15 minutes waiting to pick someone up instead of just turning off the vehicle to save gas. I get that on a particularly hot day in the summer it's much nicer to run the AC, but some of these people will sit there idling regardless of the weather. Then they all complain about the price of gas. Doesn't make sense to me. I always turn off my car while I'm waiting unless it is an extraordinarily hot summer day (and yes, I know that contributes to air pollution).
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 09, 2014, 10:25:57 AM
And sometimes voters are why we can't have nice things. Inflation-indexed gas tax was repealed here by referendum last month. Now, a) politicians afraid to touch the gas tax have to incrementally pass any increase, and b) they have a clear sense that voters are not only unafraid to vote against them for it, but are so motivated against gas tax that they'll circumvent the legislature if need be to push back against it.
We have the level of infrastructure maintenance we deserve, I'm afraid.
The Massachusetts repeal is a good example of why initiative petition should NEVER be used as a means of deciding taxation issues.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 09, 2014, 10:25:57 AM
And sometimes voters are why we can't have nice things...We have the level of infrastructure maintenance we deserve, I'm afraid.
Instead of sensible discussion, we get soundbites. Instead of rational arguments, we get political action committee advertising that deflects answers. We're getting bullied in our own playground because nobody finds the time and energy to address the liars and charlatans in charge.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 09, 2014, 07:59:05 AM
Most people have a better memory for gas prices than they do for inflation. Assuming a low price now of around $2.40, this equates roughly to $1.32 in 1990.
Yep. Most people
don't even notice inflation unless they're old enough to remember when a quarter could buy enough candy to make you sick at the corner grocery store.
Quote from: oscar on December 09, 2014, 02:57:39 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on December 09, 2014, 02:08:27 AM
A further reason why not is that there is some sentiment present that states should fund their own damn roads rather than relying on the federal government. Which is really interesting because congress has for a while loved using highway funding as a way to make states do things. Now there is a willingness among some to give up or diminish that power in order to dump the difficult job of having to raise taxes onto the states.
Or raise tolls, toy with per-mile fees, or otherwise raise funds for roads.
Not only do states have more flexibility than the Feds on paying for roads, but balanced-budget requirements generally limit their ability to dodge hard choices on transportation funding like the U.S. Congress is wont to do, so the states seem to be less allergic to gas tax increases than the Feds. Even in a state like Virginia, where anti-taxers control the legislature's lower house, they found a way to hold their noses and do a lot of hand-waving to let gas and other taxes go up, so they could at least feebly gnaw away at transportation shortfalls.
That brings up an interesting thought; most people are far more tolerant of states doing things that would cause people to scream bloody murder if the feds did them. Perhaps this is a backdoor method to getting Americans accustomed to a mileage tax? If a state does it, it's "innovation". If the federal government does it, it's "Homeland Security tracking your every move to put you in a FEMA Camp". It's simple: create a funding crisis, force states to find new means of paying for things, and once people get used to what was formerly considered a draconian measure, do it at the federal level when the only people who will object are on the fringe and are easily discredited. Throw a frog into a pot of boiling water, and he'll jump out. Throw the same frog into a pot of water and then slowly raise the temperature to a boil and he'll be cooked alive.
quote from 1995hoo
QuoteWhat amuses me is how people complain about the price of gas while they blatantly waste it. There's a KFC/Taco Bell in the shopping center near my neighborhood. Invariably there will be 10 or 12 vehicles sitting on line waiting for the drive-thru merrily wasting gas while they idle, yet there will be no line at all inside. You could park, go inside, get your food "to go," and be back in your car driving away in less time than it would take to reach the speaker thing where you place your order at the drive-thru.
When I pick up my wife at the subway station in the evening, some people will sit there idling their vehicles for 10 or 15 minutes waiting to pick someone up instead of just turning off the vehicle to save gas. I get that on a particularly hot day in the summer it's much nicer to run the AC, but some of these people will sit there idling regardless of the weather. Then they all complain about the price of gas. Doesn't make sense to me. I always turn off my car while I'm waiting unless it is an extraordinarily hot summer day (and yes, I know that contributes to air pollution).
Amen.
Around here, Chick-Fil-A always has a 13-SUV long line wrapped completely around the building, but no line inside. People are so effing lazy it's ridiculous. Of course, these are the people who are so rich that they can afford huge gas guzzling SUV's and the gas bill that comes with them. I guess to them money is no object. I often go inside places to avoid using the drive-through, and this includes the bank. It's a lot easier to read the menu and communicate with employees of a business if you actually go inside.
Not only that, but if you go inside you don't get trapped behind someone ordering for a family with 114 kids, involving 179 drinks (passed through the window individually because the customer wants to put each drink in an SUV cupholder instead of taking one of the cardboard drink carriers) and 181 burgers, all of which must be checked there at the window lest Ernie Sr. Jr. IX get pickles on his burger.
Quote from: formulanone on December 09, 2014, 10:17:02 AM
Funny how folks forget that they pay at least 2-3 times as much in a grocery store or restaurant compared to 20 years ago, but gasoline is always considered a rip-off.
Partly (mostly?) because nothing else's prices are as volatile as gasoline, and there's seemingly no logic to the price fluctuations.
If one of some sheikh's 10 wives or concubines doesn't give him a little one night, prices are liable to go up a quarter a gallon the next day. Or if some terrorist farts, the futures market gets jittery.
In the town where I work, a pattern has developed. Prices will go down a nickel at a time over the course of a few days at the first of the week. Then, usually on Thursday, the price will go up 20 cents a gallon. Then it will start back down incrementally on Monday.
Quote from: hbelkins on December 09, 2014, 08:12:50 PM
Partly (mostly?) because nothing else's prices are as volatile as gasoline
This. The price of gasoline has always been a subject of discussion, and has long been displayed in big numbers on signs facing the road at every gas station, so you cannot ignore it.
Meanwhile, quick - what exactly were you paying for a gallon of milk in 1995?
Most people would at least have to think about it and many couldn't give you an answer at all. I know I couldn't give you an answer. But I remember what gas cost.
People with kids know what milk costs. And I know how the prices are on a lot of grocery commodities because I'm a stickler on grocery prices. The sales on steak tips were lousy this year compared to most, for example, and anyone remember the lime crisis?
But you're right, I probably won't remember those in five years.
Not everyone is as conscious of gas prices, either. I know a lot of people who barely think twice about where they buy gas, never mind what they paid five years ago. It was drilled into me as a kid to pay attention, though, so I know I paid $1.80 in New Paltz in 2004 (the horror!), $2.75 in Kentucky in 2007 (a steal!), $1.21 in New Jersey in 2008, and in 1998 or so, prices went under $1 for the last time. I could go on, but it's enough to say that really mostly high or low spikes stick out in my mind going way back.
Quote from: Duke87 on December 11, 2014, 12:25:09 AM
Meanwhile, quick - what exactly were you paying for a gallon of milk in 1995?
$0. I was 4 and Mom bought the groceries.
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 09, 2014, 10:30:02 AM
Quote from: formulanone on December 09, 2014, 10:17:02 AM
Funny how folks forget that they pay at least 2-3 times as much in a grocery store or restaurant compared to 20 years ago, but gasoline is always considered a rip-off.
....
What amuses me is how people complain about the price of gas while they blatantly waste it. There's a KFC/Taco Bell in the shopping center near my neighborhood. Invariably there will be 10 or 12 vehicles sitting on line waiting for the drive-thru merrily wasting gas while they idle, yet there will be no line at all inside. You could park, go inside, get your food "to go," and be back in your car driving away in less time than it would take to reach the speaker thing where you place your order at the drive-thru.
When I pick up my wife at the subway station in the evening, some people will sit there idling their vehicles for 10 or 15 minutes waiting to pick someone up instead of just turning off the vehicle to save gas. I get that on a particularly hot day in the summer it's much nicer to run the AC, but some of these people will sit there idling regardless of the weather. Then they all complain about the price of gas. Doesn't make sense to me. I always turn off my car while I'm waiting unless it is an extraordinarily hot summer day (and yes, I know that contributes to air pollution).
I can't stand the fast food business practices. One thing that particularly annoys me is that they often insist on giving out the orders in the exact same order in which they were placed. So if I see the inside is jammed with people, and decide to go around to the empty drive-through, I will often have to wait until everyone inside who has already ordered to get their food before they will start preparing my order. Likewise, there could be 5 people on the drive-thru line but no one inside...but if those 5 people already had their order keyed in, guarantee you'll be standing there waiting until all of them get their food before they will compile your order. So oftentimes, it isn't any faster to go inside, which is silly.
This practice of only handing out food in the same order in which it was ordered is particularly annoying when they are waiting on an item. This happened when the new Maryland House opened...I ordered 2 hot dogs from Nathans. I could see about 20 dogs done, spinning around on the hot dog thing, but because the person ahead of me ordered a dog and fries, and the fry machine was still counting down, we had to wait for the fries to be finished and the person ahead of me handed their food before they could pluck two dogs off the grill and hand them to me. ugh! They could have had my food out while waiting for the fries to cook! But that might be too difficult of a concept for a minimum wage employee to understand.
Heh. I got irked with the teenage employee at KFC when he wouldn't key in my order because I said "to go" at the end of the order instead of before I told him what I wanted (for example: "three-piece chicken and a biscuit to go" as opposed to "to go, three-piece chicken and a biscuit"). :angry:
I have a feeling other people found him annoying because I never saw him working there again.
Quote from: mtantillo on December 11, 2014, 06:56:02 PM
This practice of only handing out food in the same order in which it was ordered is particularly annoying when they are waiting on an item. This happened when the new Maryland House opened...I ordered 2 hot dogs from Nathans. I could see about 20 dogs done, spinning around on the hot dog thing, but because the person ahead of me ordered a dog and fries, and the fry machine was still counting down, we had to wait for the fries to be finished and the person ahead of me handed their food before they could pluck two dogs off the grill and hand them to me. ugh! They could have had my food out while waiting for the fries to cook! But that might be too difficult of a concept for a minimum wage employee to understand.
It isn't always the minimum wage employee.
Sometimes it's the almost-minimum wage
supervisor or
manager that does not have a clue.
A good manager in that type of place (where many customers are want to get back on the road) keeps a close eye on queuing, and if the line builds up, steps in to help out.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 09, 2014, 04:10:13 PM
...all of which must be checked there at the window lest Ernie Sr. Jr. IX get pickles on his burger.
Excuse me. Ernie Sr. Jr. IX has a vlasic deficiency and if pickles, pickle juice, or the air around the pickles came in contact with him, he will almost certainly get a headache. That is why the entire school has banned pickles from all lunches and snacks, including those brought from home. (The other kids in the car can have pickles though - that won't affect him.)
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 11, 2014, 08:08:15 AM
Not everyone is as conscious of gas prices, either. I know a lot of people who barely think twice about where they buy gas, never mind what they paid five years ago. It was drilled into me as a kid to pay attention, though, so I know I paid $1.80 in New Paltz in 2004 (the horror!), $2.75 in Kentucky in 2007 (a steal!), $1.21 in New Jersey in 2008, and in 1998 or so, prices went under $1 for the last time. I could go on, but it's enough to say that really mostly high or low spikes stick out in my mind going way back.
I remember arguing with someone who swears they never paid $4 a gallon when gas prices spiked in 2008 before dramatically falling. Even though I could easily prove with gasbuddy that has historical charts showing gas prices for particular areas, he was insistent prices were never higher than the $2 range.
On the other hand, one of my carpoolers swears gas prices haven't been under $1 a gallon since the 1980's, even though I have been driving since 1993 and paid under $1 a gallon for seemingly much of the rest of that decade.
As for me, especially on road trips I will get super pissed at myself if I find out I could've paid less by waiting an exit or two, or if I had exited an exit or two earlier. At home I try to hit up the cheapest gas stations...as long as they're within a reasonable distance from where I am or where I'll be. But I absolutely steer clear of the cash/credit pricing stations.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 12, 2014, 02:49:58 PM
But I absolutely steer clear of the cash/credit pricing stations.
Why is that? Just pay cash, and you'll get the cheaper price.
Quote from: 1 on December 12, 2014, 02:59:27 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 12, 2014, 02:49:58 PM
But I absolutely steer clear of the cash/credit pricing stations.
Why is that? Just pay cash, and you'll get the cheaper price.
I don't, because chances are good I don't have $60 on me for just in case I come across one of those. There are so many places that charge one really low price for cash or charge that it makes some of the huge credit markups seem usurious.
Quote from: 1 on December 12, 2014, 02:59:27 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 12, 2014, 02:49:58 PM
But I absolutely steer clear of the cash/credit pricing stations.
Why is that? Just pay cash, and you'll get the cheaper price.
Besides the aforementioned issue that I often do not have the necessary quantity of cash on my person, there is also the matter of paying in cash being annoying since it requires I go inside, interact with a human, go back out and pump gas, go back inside and interact with a human again, and then go back outside and leave. If I use my card I just dip it in the machine, pump gas, and leave. Much simpler, quicker, and easier. If you think I should have to pay extra for this privilege you don't deserve my business.
If it's a full service station then most of the bother of paying with cash is removed since you make zero trips inside instead of two. But then that requires going to a full service station which is annoying for a bunch of other reasons.
https://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/why-cheap-gasoline-is-bad-for-america-054906623.html
Some things are true, but to the rest I say to this writer "FUCK YOU!!!" :angry:
Quote from: Duke87 on December 13, 2014, 12:45:02 AM
Quote from: 1 on December 12, 2014, 02:59:27 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 12, 2014, 02:49:58 PM
But I absolutely steer clear of the cash/credit pricing stations.
Why is that? Just pay cash, and you'll get the cheaper price.
Besides the aforementioned issue that I often do not have the necessary quantity of cash on my person, there is also the matter of paying in cash being annoying since it requires I go inside, interact with a human, go back out and pump gas, go back inside and interact with a human again, and then go back outside and leave. If I use my card I just dip it in the machine, pump gas, and leave. Much simpler, quicker, and easier. If you think I should have to pay extra for this privilege you don't deserve my business.
If it's a full service station then most of the bother of paying with cash is removed since you make zero trips inside instead of two. But then that requires going to a full service station which is annoying for a bunch of other reasons.
The cheapest stations here are all full serve.
Full service stations still exist? WHAAAAAAAT????? :confused: :wow: As in like, someone comes out of the store when you run over the airhose-activated bell and asks you how much gas you want in your car? They even check under the hood?
I thought that idea was a relic of the past.
Quote from: 1 on December 12, 2014, 02:59:27 PM
Why is that? Just pay cash, and you'll get the cheaper price.
Who wants to use cash for anything? Aside from putting quarters in the laundry machine, I use cash VERY rarely. It's inconvenient (and it's easier for me than most here since I'm a girl and have things like a purse and a wallet that's large enough to hold coins).
Quote from: cjk374 on December 13, 2014, 09:53:30 AM
Full service stations still exist? WHAAAAAAAT????? :confused: :wow: As in like, someone comes out of the store when you run over the airhose-activated bell and asks you how much gas you want in your car? They even check under the hood?
I thought that idea was a relic of the past.
Well, no. In the 1950's, when there was very little traffic out there, they would do that.
Today, each attendant monitors about 2 dual sided gas pumps (or 1 island) (meaning he's responsible for about 4 vehicles), and there's usually at least one car out there already. The more popular the station, the more likely all the pumps will be in use, with possibly one or two waiting to pull in.
Speaking of NJ here, this is the general process: You pull up to an open pump. The attendant will come to your window. The driver says what they want (Fill it, regular; $20 Premium), and either says Cash or hands over the credit card, as most pumps do have the pay-at-the-pump feature. The attendant runs the credit card, may hand it back to you or leave it in the machine, sticks the nozzle in the fuel line on the car, starts it up, and usually walks away to another vehicle. After the pump has stopped, the attendant returns to the vehicle, tops it off or pulls out the pump, puts it back, waits for the receipt and hands it to you (along with the credit card, if he left it in the machine (which foreign owned stations tend to do). It's extremely rare if the attendant washes the windows, and never checks under the hood. It's also very rare the attendant will be female. If someone says they've never had their gas pumped by a female, they're probably not exaggerating.
If they have time to stand, there's usually a small 3'x6' or so booth on the island between the pumps, which is usually heated as well. This is also where the cash register and secondary credit card machine would be located as well.
Unlike in the past when the guy pumping gas probably worked in the gas station's repair shop and could rebuild your car if necessary, today's attendants are simply gas jockeys and would most likely be holding a coffee or red bull.
Examples:
Wawa, where there are 4 islands with 2 machines each, allowing for 16 vehicles to be served at one time. You can also see the small booth inbetween the pump. In this case, there will be 3 attendants working; 1 for each of the red labeled gas islands. Note, the yellow island on the left is Diesel Only...and NJ law states diesel is Self Serve. Go figure. http://goo.gl/maps/41qwD
Here's a smaller station: Just 1 island which can process 4 cars at once. It happens to have a nice, large booth too. http://goo.gl/maps/YJDaF
Quote from: 1 on December 12, 2014, 02:59:27 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 12, 2014, 02:49:58 PM
But I absolutely steer clear of the cash/credit pricing stations.
Why is that? Just pay cash, and you'll get the cheaper price.
Like others - I rarely carry cash. And credit cards earn points for cash back, hotel stays, etc (well, that's what my 2 main cards do). While the basic rate is 1% towards points, some promotions will allow one to earn 5 points or more per dollar at the gas pump. So, if I can fill up at the pump and get several nights for free at a Hilton because of it, then credit is the way to go. I use credit to pay my cable bill each month too, along with any other bill that allows me to, without a surcharge. My gas/electric bill will surcharge me if I use credit, so I don't.
PS - Yes, I pay off the balance each month.
Quote from: vdeane on December 13, 2014, 01:51:14 PM
Quote from: 1 on December 12, 2014, 02:59:27 PM
Why is that? Just pay cash, and you'll get the cheaper price.
Who wants to use cash for anything? Aside from putting quarters in the laundry machine, I use cash VERY rarely. It's inconvenient (and it's easier for me than most here since I'm a girl and have things like a purse and a wallet that's large enough to hold coins).
I saw a band last night at small bar. There was a five dollar cover. I handed the guy a crisp fin out of my pocket, and was done. No muss, no fuss.
You can actually hand somebody cash, not have to give a cut to some company, not have to have a paper trail, not have to require multiple transactions when doing collective purchasing (nothing is more obnoxious to me than a table splitting a check everyone wants to run their card separately)... Cash is a very, very useful thing to have.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 13, 2014, 02:53:01 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 13, 2014, 01:51:14 PM
Quote from: 1 on December 12, 2014, 02:59:27 PM
Why is that? Just pay cash, and you'll get the cheaper price.
Who wants to use cash for anything? Aside from putting quarters in the laundry machine, I use cash VERY rarely. It's inconvenient (and it's easier for me than most here since I'm a girl and have things like a purse and a wallet that's large enough to hold coins).
I saw a band last night at small bar. There was a five dollar cover. I handed the guy a crisp fin out of my pocket, and was done. No muss, no fuss.
You can actually hand somebody cash, not have to give a cut to some company, not have to have a paper trail, not have to require multiple transactions when doing collective purchasing (nothing is more obnoxious to me than a table splitting a check everyone wants to run their card separately)... Cash is a very, very useful thing to have.
OK, that I try not to do. I'll rather just pay cash when splitting a bill. So yes, there is some planning involved, including for the cover situation as mentioned. And if I'm going to a bar where I'll be paying per drink, I'll try to bring cash, including ones for tips. In fact, I do try to have enough cash to pay a tip at a restaurant as well, although most likely the bill will be going on a card if I'm not splitting bills.
But moving away from that, if I'm at a store, or a gas station, or wherever, then I'm using credit.
I use cash for small purchases becauce forcing a fee on the merchant because I spent $1.25 on a soda seems rude to me. I use cash at stores and restaurants that do not accept cards or strongly prefer not to (still very common in New York City). I tip in cash if possible because I can't guarantee that the person I'm trying to tip will ever see the money if I put it on my card.
But the key is these are all relatively small expenses and while I do carry cash I do not carry loads of it. I think my wallet currently contains about $21 in cash. Not enough to fill my gas tank with, even with prices having gone down as much as they have.
Even still, I would be far more inclined to pay cash for gasoline if I could do so at the pump. The need to make two trips inside is the deal-breaker for me.
I've seen one gas station that had a pay-at-the-pump feature accepting cash, a Shell station in Fairfax City (for those who know the area, it was Main Street Shell just west of Burke Station Road). This was quite some time ago, mid-1990s if memory serves, back when gas over $1.00 a gallon became normal. There was a bill acceptor that looked similar to the ones on soda machines located next to the credit card acceptor.
It flopped. Problem was, it didn't make change. Instead it printed a receipt and you had to go stand on line at the cashier, which defeated the purpose of paying this way unless you filled it exactly to an even dollar amount (because it didn't take coins) AND you paid the exact amount (definitely not routine because if you put in $14, most people using cash would pay $15). The cash acceptor things have been gone from that station for years, although I suppose I should concede I haven't bought gas there for years either after I had an argument with a rude employee (plus I don't live near there anymore so there's little reason to go there for gas).
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 14, 2014, 09:11:19 AM
I've seen one gas station that had a pay-at-the-pump feature accepting cash, a Shell station in Fairfax City (for those who know the area, it was Main Street Shell just west of Burke Station Road). This was quite some time ago, mid-1990s if memory serves, back when gas over $1.00 a gallon became normal. There was a bill acceptor that looked similar to the ones on soda machines located next to the credit card acceptor.
These were once common in at least some EU nations.
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 14, 2014, 09:11:19 AM
It flopped. Problem was, it didn't make change. Instead it printed a receipt and you had to go stand on line at the cashier, which defeated the purpose of paying this way unless you filled it exactly to an even dollar amount (because it didn't take coins) AND you paid the exact amount (definitely not routine because if you put in $14, most people using cash would pay $15). The cash acceptor things have been gone from that station for years, although I suppose I should concede I haven't bought gas there for years either after I had an argument with a rude employee (plus I don't live near there anymore so there's little reason to go there for gas).
The once I have seen required payment first, and then you could pump up to that amount. I do not think they made change, so it was not a good idea to overpay.
Arco stations in California and other western states, which don't take credit cards last I heard, usually have central bill acceptors covering multiple pumps. You still have to go inside to get change, if you paid more than you pumped.
Usually, when I pumped gas at an Arco station, I paid with a large bill not accepted by the bill acceptors (while Arcos are big bill-friendly, their acceptors don't take bills over $20), so that meant one or two trips inside. That inconvenience was OK with me, if I wanted to spend down the big bills in my wallet toward the end of my trip, once I was sure I wouldn't need cash from an out-of-network ATM outside my bank's largely southern territory. Usually I need to use a restroom anyway whenever I need to refuel my car, though restroom availability is uneven at the smaller Arco stations.
Some new Sheetz stations take cash at the pump. Aside from a few stations I saw in Pinellas County FL, split cash/credit pricing seems to be strictly a NJ thing for the most part. It thrives because cash payment is tendered at the pump by the attendant, no need to go into a mini-mart or even leave your car.
Quote from: NJRoadfan on December 14, 2014, 02:02:47 PM
Aside from a few stations I saw in Pinellas County FL, split cash/credit pricing seems to be strictly a NJ thing for the most part. It thrives because cash payment is tendered at the pump by the attendant, no need to go into a mini-mart or even leave your car.
At least one gas station in my area, a Liberty, has split pricing with no outside attendant. I paid cash in that instance to get the cash discount, on a 20+ gallon fill-up of my pickup truck. That was a borderline decision (two trips inside to prepay then get change, and passing up the cashback bonus on my credit card), which I wouldn't have made for the much smaller fill-up for my car.
Quote from: NJRoadfan on December 14, 2014, 02:02:47 PM
Some new Sheetz stations take cash at the pump. Aside from a few stations I saw in Pinellas County FL, split cash/credit pricing seems to be strictly a NJ thing for the most part. It thrives because cash payment is tendered at the pump by the attendant, no need to go into a mini-mart or even leave your car.
I know of at least 2 stations on the Virginia Peninsula with spit pricing, with one (a Citgo, I think) having a 20-cent (2.25 vs 2.45) difference between cash and credit.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 13, 2014, 02:53:01 PM
I saw a band last night at small bar. There was a five dollar cover. I handed the guy a crisp fin out of my pocket, and was done. No muss, no fuss.
You can actually hand somebody cash, not have to give a cut to some company, not have to have a paper trail, not have to require multiple transactions when doing collective purchasing (nothing is more obnoxious to me than a table splitting a check everyone wants to run their card separately)... Cash is a very, very useful thing to have.
I'm not familiar with bars. Too loud, too many people for my tastes. Plus all I know about alcoholic beverages is that I like vodka and don't like beer, scotch, or red wine.
As for restaurants, my preference is that the bills be separate like in
every other country.
Quote from: formulanone on December 09, 2014, 10:17:02 AMTo be fair, I haven't a clue how the excises are collected and distributed, and if it isn't penny-for-penny in the state where the fuel is purchased, there's the problem.
It is pretty close to penny-for-penny: each state has a minimum recovery of 90% or more from the federal gas tax. There is some cross-subsidization but compared to the total highway budget, it is quite small. Opposition to a fuel tax increase at the federal level is largely ideological.
Quote from: vdeane on December 13, 2014, 01:51:14 PMWho wants to use cash for anything? Aside from putting quarters in the laundry machine, I use cash VERY rarely. It's inconvenient (and it's easier for me than most here since I'm a girl and have things like a purse and a wallet that's large enough to hold coins).
There are actually men who use coin purses--I am one of them.
I use a credit card for most transactions, including all fuel purchases, partly because that builds up a spending history I can consult online and export into a spreadsheet. If I pay cash, generally my only record of the transaction is a receipt printed on thermal paper, which rots pretty quickly unless it is promptly put into dark storage. However, I occasionally pay cash for certain services (such as haircuts or taxi rides) where I want to be able to give a tip with part of the change.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 13, 2014, 02:43:07 PM
Speaking of NJ here, this is the general process: You pull up to an open pump. The attendant will come to your window. The driver says what they want (Fill it, regular; $20 Premium), and either says Cash or hands over the credit card, as most pumps do have the pay-at-the-pump feature. The attendant runs the credit card, may hand it back to you or leave it in the machine, sticks the nozzle in the fuel line on the car, starts it up, and usually walks away to another vehicle. After the pump has stopped, the attendant returns to the vehicle, tops it off or pulls out the pump, puts it back, waits for the receipt and hands it to you (along with the credit card, if he left it in the machine, which foreign owned stations tend to do). It's extremely rare if the attendant washes the windows, and never checks under the hood. It's also very rare the attendant will be female. If someone says they've never had their gas pumped by a female, they're probably not exaggerating.
The procedure in Oregon is similar, except the attendant never leaves the pump handle. I suspect this is because the law requires the pump to be under his continuous supervision. (I do not think I have ever seen a female gas jockey on my travels in either New Jersey or Oregon.)
When I took my thirteen-states trip last September, I thought I might be able to bridge Oregon both times without stopping for fuel, but on my second crossing of the state I stopped for gas in Brookings (just north of the California state line) since my gauge was on empty and I had a poor feel for fuel availability on US 101 south. I had to watch while someone else pumped my gas, which I ordinarily don't care for, but fortunately this gas jockey was willing to follow my top-off instructions (pump at lowest flow rate until shutoff, then pump at a higher flow rate until the pump shuts off again, then cap the tank and turn until you lose count of the clicks).
I actually don't want anyone else to do the other elements of a traditional "full service" fillup. On many cars (including mine) a warm dipstick check is a waste of time because the bottom of the dipstick is exposed to splash from the crankshaft, which means a true reading cannot be taken until after drainback. And when I have a lot of dead bugs on my windshield, I want to be left alone to squeegee it as many times as I need to get it perfectly clear. The attendant can be fired if he fails to turn my car over fast enough, but it's my head on the chopping block if I drive after dark and injure or kill someone because my exterior glass was not clean enough.
Split cash/credit seems to be common in South Carolina. Why, I have no idea.
Quote from: roadman on December 09, 2014, 10:30:22 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 09, 2014, 10:25:57 AM
And sometimes voters are why we can't have nice things. Inflation-indexed gas tax was repealed here by referendum last month. Now, a) politicians afraid to touch the gas tax have to incrementally pass any increase, and b) they have a clear sense that voters are not only unafraid to vote against them for it, but are so motivated against gas tax that they'll circumvent the legislature if need be to push back against it.
We have the level of infrastructure maintenance we deserve, I'm afraid.
The Massachusetts repeal is a good example of why initiative petition should NEVER be used as a means of deciding taxation issues.
Ah, no.
I understand completely the necessity of taxation, particularly for building adequate, safe roads. But I also remember, as too few do, that one reason we broke away from the British crown was the hated "taxation without representation."
Or, to put it in modern terms: If my taxes are to be raised, let the legislators go on the record, every single time they think an increase is necessary. Automatic tax increases are a perfect way for them to avoid responsibility.
The trouble I have with that logic is that despite the rhetoric, MA never enacted a tax that automatically increased. What they did was index the tax to inflation, in order to prevent it from automatically decreasing as any tax which is a flat amount rather than a percentage does. The same thing would more or less be achieved with a tax that is a percentage of the untaxed price (a la sales tax) rather than a set number of cents per gallon, but then nobody would be talking about "automatic tax increases". That jive successfully taking hold just shows how financially illiterate most people are.
Quote from: vdeane on December 14, 2014, 06:23:56 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 13, 2014, 02:53:01 PM
I saw a band last night at small bar. There was a five dollar cover. I handed the guy a crisp fin out of my pocket, and was done. No muss, no fuss.
You can actually hand somebody cash, not have to give a cut to some company, not have to have a paper trail, not have to require multiple transactions when doing collective purchasing (nothing is more obnoxious to me than a table splitting a check everyone wants to run their card separately)... Cash is a very, very useful thing to have.
I'm not familiar with bars. Too loud, too many people for my tastes. Plus all I know about alcoholic beverages is that I like vodka and don't like beer, scotch, or red wine.
As for restaurants, my preference is that the bills be separate like in every other country.
Cash is more flexible and carries some extra leverage from being instantaneous. This is why people want to use cash for things.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 14, 2014, 08:10:34 PM
Quote from: formulanone on December 09, 2014, 10:17:02 AMTo be fair, I haven't a clue how the excises are collected and distributed, and if it isn't penny-for-penny in the state where the fuel is purchased, there's the problem.
It is pretty close to penny-for-penny: each state has a minimum recovery of 90% or more from the federal gas tax. There is some cross-subsidization but compared to the total highway budget, it is quite small. Opposition to a fuel tax increase at the federal level is largely ideological.
Thanks for that.
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 14, 2014, 08:24:36 PM
Split cash/credit seems to be common in South Carolina. Why, I have no idea.
Seems to me that some states permit it and others don't.
Stations in Florida started doing it around 2009 or so, around the time after the price started to rebound. But I never noticed such a thing the previous 25 years I'd lived in the state.
Having taken a few drives between Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana this year, I haven't noticed a single station posting separate prices at all, so maybe they do not permit it. Not sure on Georgia, though.
Quote from: cjk374 on December 13, 2014, 09:53:30 AM
Full service stations still exist? WHAAAAAAAT????? :confused: :wow: As in like, someone comes out of the store when you run over the airhose-activated bell and asks you how much gas you want in your car? They even check under the hood?
I thought that idea was a relic of the past.
There's still one in Boca Raton, Florida. Still has a mechanical shop, too...Lots of old-money folks in that area, but no car dealerships for servicing immediate mishaps.
Quote from: Duke87 on December 15, 2014, 01:18:16 AM
The trouble I have with that logic is that despite the rhetoric, MA never enacted a tax that automatically increased. What they did was index the tax to inflation, in order to prevent it from automatically decreasing as any tax which is a flat amount rather than a percentage does. The same thing would more or less be achieved with a tax that is a percentage of the untaxed price (a la sales tax) rather than a set number of cents per gallon, but then nobody would be talking about "automatic tax increases". That jive successfully taking hold just shows how financially illiterate most people are.
A tax rising by indexing it to inflation is still a tax increase, and I do not tolerate tax increases where my elected representative is too afraid to figuratively look me in the eye while grabbing my wallet. I also do not tolerate elected officials evading their responsibility or forgetting in whose name they were elected in the first place. If the legislature wants to raise taxes because road construction got more expensive, let them go on the record instead of hiding behind semantic clap-trap or a reflexive "taxes=bad."
This country's collective failure to have adult conversations when it comes to taxes starts and ends with knowing exactly what taxes are being levied and in what amounts, and too few of us even bother to find out that info.
I'm not willing to accept that we have unsafe roads until the country is willing "to have adult conversations when it comes to taxes." We collectively don't allow politicians to vote to keep the gas tax the same amount (falsely called an "increase" when people look only at numbers and not actual value).
I said earlier that we deserve our crappy roads, and this is exactly why–we insist on this fantasy that we are holding politicians to a high standard while we simultaneously bind them to our low standard (the aforementioned "taxes = bad" attitude).
And now, because we can't even have the gas tax in Massachusetts stay the same in real dollars without a dog-and-pony show of a vote we doom to failure, we don't actually get the value of the gas tax passed. We get less of the agreed-upon amount every day, week, month, year after it passes.
I'd love to have that adult conversation, but we're very deficient in a key component–adults.
Quote from: SidS1045 on December 15, 2014, 08:53:44 PM
A tax rising by indexing it to inflation is still a tax increase
Not in real dollars it isn't. The value of money decreases over time. Indexing something to inflation keeps its value the same. And this isn't just true of taxes - the social security administration adjusts the payments it sends people up a bit every year to compensate for inflation. They call it a "cost of living adjustment".
Failure to make these adjustments results in ever-dwindling revenue. Indeed, the reason we are having this conversation is because the federal gas tax has not been touched in two decades and has lost 40% of its purchasing power in that time ($1 in 2014 = 61 cents in 1993).
Quote from: Duke87 on December 16, 2014, 12:42:01 AM
Quote from: SidS1045 on December 15, 2014, 08:53:44 PM
A tax rising by indexing it to inflation is still a tax increase
Not in real dollars it isn't. The value of money decreases over time. Indexing something to inflation keeps its value the same. And this isn't just true of taxes - the social security administration adjusts the payments it sends people up a bit every year to compensate for inflation. They call it a "cost of living adjustment".
Failure to make these adjustments results in ever-dwindling revenue. Indeed, the reason we are having this conversation is because the federal gas tax has not been touched in two decades and has lost 40% of its purchasing power in that time ($1 in 2014 = 61 cents in 1993).
I agree with the above.
If Congress could index the federal income tax brackets to inflation, then it seems reasonable to also index the federal motor fuel tax rate to inflation.
Here's a crazy idea that will probably never happen but would vastly improve financial literacy: index the dollar to inflation. That way, the cost of goods would not rise when inflation occurs, but what would happen is that people's paychecks would evaporate. I bet people would notice inflation a LOT more if it happened that way. It would also incentivize saving, convince people to stop treating homes as investments, and make Wall St worthless... win-win as far as I'm concerned.