Many times, I've passed vehicles on the highway with with what appears to be tamper-evident tape sealing the driver's side rear corner of the trunk. As far as I can remember, these vehicles are almost exclusively Nissans–perhaps some Hyundais, too–and they're all rental vehicles, as far as I've seen.
The tape is printed with a repeating pattern of the manufacturer emblem and seems to be placed very precisely, leading me to believe it's placed at the factory. Sometimes the tape appears to be unbroken; sometimes it looks like it's been neatly slit, and at others, it's ragged and ready to fall off.
I've seen this now several times, and a number of Google searches haven't revealed the vaguest hint of an explanation. I wasn't able to find a photo of the tape, but I was given a Sentra as a rental today, and it still has the ghost of where this tape had been (pictured below–outlined for clarity).
Has anyone noticed this or know the reason for it?
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7636/16805378265_015cb16bc3_c.jpg)
I haven't seen it before. My wild guess is that it might be to keep people from smuggling drugs cross-country in new-vehicle trunks, and that the tape is supposed to be completely removed by the receiving dealer (one of the things covered by the "destination charge").
How do you know they're all rental cars? Do they all have rental plates or frames or something?
I've never seen this myself.
Quote from: oscar on March 13, 2015, 04:54:41 PM
I haven't seen it before. My wild guess is that it might be to keep people from smuggling drugs cross-country in new-vehicle trunks, and that the tape is supposed to be completely removed by the receiving dealer (one of the things covered by the "destination charge").
It's part of the Pre-Delivery Inspection process, although sometimes they forget to remove the tape? I see about one a month in which the tape wasn't removed properly, and it's sloppy work (to be fair, I see this on lots of rental cars of all makes/models).
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2015, 05:02:14 PM
How do you know they're all rental cars? Do they all have rental plates or frames or something?
Rental cars are pretty easy to spot based on a combination of hints...recent model car, no dealer insignia or license plate frame, no bumper stickers or personalizations of any kind, "no smoking" stickers on the windows... But the dead giveaway is the set of barcode stickers at the corners of front and side glass.
Jalopnik posted a field guide to spotting rentals (http://jalopnik.com/here-s-how-you-can-easily-spot-a-rental-car-1660754908) –which pretty much confirmed everything I've learned watching the many obvious tourists in San Francisco.
Quote from: oscar on March 13, 2015, 04:54:41 PM
My wild guess is that it might be to keep people from smuggling drugs cross-country in new-vehicle trunks...
Given that at least some Sentras and Versas are manufactured in Mexico, it would seem to make more sense in that context. Although in the case of the Sentra, the seatbacks don't appear to be lockable.
Quote from: oscar on March 13, 2015, 04:54:41 PM
...the tape is supposed to be completely removed by the receiving dealer (one of the things covered by the "destination charge").
Quote from: formulanone on March 13, 2015, 06:01:37 PM
It's part of the Pre-Delivery Inspection process, although sometimes they forget to remove the tape?
That part all fits. Any pre-delivery housekeeping would be done by the dealer, and I believe rental agency fleet purchases are all direct transactions, meaning that Hertz, Enterprise, or whatever company bought the cars would be responsible for those tasks. And given the number of very low milage cars I've encountered with the protective clear plastic film still stuck to glossy interior trim, satellite radio not yet activated, or unused front license plate brackets laying in the trunk, the agencies would seem to be rather lax about it.
The barcodes are the giveaway more than anything. Enterprise also likes to put that "Enhance your ride" QR code sticker on the driver's side window too (something tells me scanning that code won't enhance that Dodge Avenger you are stuck with). Some of us remove the dealer's license plate frame the second the car leaves the lot.
Quote from: briantroutman on March 13, 2015, 04:46:00 PM
Many times, I’ve passed vehicles on the highway with with what appears to be tamper-evident tape sealing the driver’s side rear corner of the trunk.
Has anyone noticed this or know the reason for it?
The trunks are taped shut with tamper evident tape at the factory. This insures that nobody has put anything in the trunk such as drugs and when the vehicle reaches the port (or border, in the case of Mexican made ones) they can pass through w/o Customs having to open each trunk for an inspection, should they so choose to.
Retail vehicles which are delivered to a dealer go through dealer prep and they clean this off, because they want it to look all shiny for sale. Rental cars go straight to the rental location, where there is less incentive to do a proper prep. Usually they just rip the plastic bags off the seats and slap on a set of tags and put it out to rent.
Quote from: NJRoadfan on March 14, 2015, 03:15:05 PM
Some of us remove the dealer's license plate frame the second the car leaves the lot.
Yes indeed...and peel off the sticker with the dealership's name on the back glass or back bumper. The way I look at it, they didn't pay for the space on my car to advertise themselves.
Quote from: cjk374 on March 14, 2015, 09:48:46 PM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on March 14, 2015, 03:15:05 PM
Some of us remove the dealer's license plate frame the second the car leaves the lot.
Yes indeed...and peel off the sticker with the dealership's name on the back glass or back bumper. The way I look at it, they didn't pay for the space on my car to advertise themselves.
The only time I've kept the license plate frame is when I worked for the said dealership.
Quote from: cjk374 on March 14, 2015, 09:48:46 PM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on March 14, 2015, 03:15:05 PM
Some of us remove the dealer's license plate frame the second the car leaves the lot.
Yes indeed...and peel off the sticker with the dealership's name on the back glass or back bumper. The way I look at it, they didn't pay for the space on my car to advertise themselves.
Are you paying for Nissan to advertise, or do you take away their logo and other words they have on their vehicle also? And do you rub away the tire manufacturer on the side of the tire?
Is your silent partner Nicole paying you to use her name?
Quote from: NE2 on March 15, 2015, 10:23:41 AM
Is your silent partner Nicole paying you to use her name?
You really are screwed up in the head, aren't you?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 15, 2015, 10:20:57 AM
Quote from: cjk374 on March 14, 2015, 09:48:46 PM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on March 14, 2015, 03:15:05 PM
Some of us remove the dealer's license plate frame the second the car leaves the lot.
Yes indeed...and peel off the sticker with the dealership's name on the back glass or back bumper. The way I look at it, they didn't pay for the space on my car to advertise themselves.
Are you paying for Nissan to advertise, or do you take away their logo and other words they have on their vehicle also? And do you rub away the tire manufacturer on the side of the tire?
At least in my book, a logo or nameplate for a manufacturer is not the same as advertising for a $ealership...err dealership. My favorite part of buying a car is attempting to negotiate my mobile advertising fee. :)
I don't have a problem with the marque and model identification appearing on a car I own. Similarly, I won't seek to remove the manufacturer's branding from any stock component. However, I will never agree to dealer identification being applied to any car I buy, and I will remove any such identification if I can do so without damaging the paint. Unfortunately, some dealers make this virtually impossible to do by spray-painting it on.
I don't think it is uncommon for customers not to want dealer identification on their cars. It is much more the norm to choose cars by marque and model than was the case decades ago, when cars did not last as long and were much less reliable, and developing a relationship of trust with a particular dealer was a way of steering clear of lemons. Dealers also enjoy substantial market protection through state laws that make it impossible for automakers to sell directly to the public, and that often serves to promote rent-seeking behavior.
The last two cars we purchased came from dealers. The more recent of the two, a 2009 Honda Fit, has a painted-on dealer mark, which we could not prevent being put on the car since it was pre-owned. The older, a 2005 Toyota Camry, was purchased new from the Toyota dealer in town, which has a poor reputation and tried several variations of bait-and-switch during the purchase negotiations (e.g., special-ordered car was asked for, a search was conducted and a model with equivalent specs was found in Kansas City, and the starting offer was to have someone drive it down to Wichita). It would have been galling to have that dealer's name on the trunk lid.
Quote from: DaBigE on March 15, 2015, 04:09:08 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 15, 2015, 10:20:57 AM
Quote from: cjk374 on March 14, 2015, 09:48:46 PM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on March 14, 2015, 03:15:05 PM
Some of us remove the dealer's license plate frame the second the car leaves the lot.
Yes indeed...and peel off the sticker with the dealership's name on the back glass or back bumper. The way I look at it, they didn't pay for the space on my car to advertise themselves.
Are you paying for Nissan to advertise, or do you take away their logo and other words they have on their vehicle also? And do you rub away the tire manufacturer on the side of the tire?
At least in my book, a logo or nameplate for a manufacturer is not the same as advertising for a $ealership...err dealership. My favorite part of buying a car is attempting to negotiate my mobile advertising fee. :)
On a wider scale, I look at it this way: There's a lot of focus on buying local. Someone buys from a local dealership. That salesperson probably lives in the area. They add on their label or a license plate frame to show that you purchased a car from the dealership, with the intent to encourage others to buy from them also. The new car owner gets home and takes it off, but leaves on everything else. Now they're advertising for an international company who headquarters may be in Michigan or Japan. Much like someone who says they support small businesses, but will walk around with bags from national chains.
It's hardly the first time I heard of someone doing this. While it's fine if someone doesn't want the info on their vehicles and they can do whatever they want, I think the reasoning is misplaced.
I'm not a fan of having the dealer's name on the car.
After all, you don't buy a pair of Levi's jeans and have the Levi's tag on one pocket and J.C. Penney on the other pocket, do you?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 15, 2015, 05:12:27 PM
On a wider scale, I look at it this way: There's a lot of focus on buying local. Someone buys from a local dealership. That salesperson probably lives in the area. They add on their label or a license plate frame to show that you purchased a car from the dealership, with the intent to encourage others to buy from them also.
I'd love to see a study to see how effective the stickers and plate frames really are.
As for buying "local", that's getting harder to do as larger dealerships keep swallowing up the locals/independents. For me, buying fruits and vegetables local is one thing, a car is another. If I had the kind of disposable income to spend hundreds more on a car just to "buy local" I would. Until then, I'm shopping for the best deal within a reasonable radius of my home.
QuoteThe new car owner gets home and takes it off, but leaves on everything else. Now they're advertising for an international company who headquarters may be in Michigan or Japan.
Again, just me, but I don't mind that, as I only by from companies I want to support buy purchasing their products. I'm buying the item how it came from the factory.
If you buy a tv or other appliance, do you ask the store to put their sticker on the front of it?
Quote from: DaBigE on March 15, 2015, 06:31:06 PMI'd love to see a study to see how effective the stickers and plate frames really are.
I would bet they are pretty effective in building brand awareness. These things are in people's line of sight all the time–every time you're sitting behind someone with a dealer name in traffic, you're seeing that name.
Obviously it's not going to convince you to buy, but it is going to make you familiar with the existence of the dealer, which is really the point.
This happened with a Nissan I rented. I broke the tape even though I didn't use the trunk. A couple of years and tens of thousands of miles later, I ended up with the same car again. I knew it because of the tape remnants left on the trunk. Yeah, it's pretty dumb.
The marque stickers are acceptable in my opinion because they are useful for identifying a car. At my work, you frequently hear stuff on the intercom like "this is a customer page for the owner of a red GMC Safari, Oklahoma tag AAA000, your lights are on". I doubt our security officers are familiar enough with every make of vehicle out there to not have to look at the emblems. It's like any other item like a vacuum or toaster or something.
The dealer information is not useful for anyone but the dealer. Not to mention that the same car might pass through 3 or 4 dealers over its lifespan...
I peeled off the dealer sticker the week I got my current car. I left the part under the logo that says "NORMAN, OK" though. I probably wouldn't buy from a dealer that ruined the paint job with their logo. If they are willing to damage the product to put their name on it I would be concerned about their other business practices.
My car still has a dealership sticker on it.
The dealership is now out of business so I'm not really advertising anything.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 15, 2015, 05:12:27 PMOn a wider scale, I look at it this way: There's a lot of focus on buying local. Someone buys from a local dealership. That salesperson probably lives in the area. They add on their label or a license plate frame to show that you purchased a car from the dealership, with the intent to encourage others to buy from them also. The new car owner gets home and takes it off, but leaves on everything else. Now they're advertising for an international company who headquarters may be in Michigan or Japan. Much like someone who says they support small businesses, but will walk around with bags from national chains.
I don't think car dealers offer a good analogy to the costermongers who support a locavorist lifestyle and are one mechanism by which locally based truck farmers can obtain a higher gate price for their produce than they can from the supermarkets.
The products have different quality dimensions and different associated supply structures. Cars are a global product, normally experience no loss of quality in transit, and have no real seasonality. The smallest non-boutique automaker is quite large, because returns to scale in the auto industry are intrinsically quite high. By buying a new car at all, you are already sending money to a distant headquarters as profit--the best you can hope to do is to support workers at an auto factory close to you if and only if that factory is designated as a production point for the particular model you buy.
Fresh produce, on the other hand, usually tastes better when in season and eaten close to where it is grown, and truck farming brings in many small locally based players as well as the majors that haul in fruit and vegetables from Mexico to maintain year-round availability of certain salad staples like lettuce, tomato, spring onion, and so on.
In a medium-sized city like Wichita, even the locally based new-car dealerships are all large operations that advertise heavily in newspapers and on TV. (Although print media is in terminal decline in Wichita as elsewhere, there is still a large fraction of the city that takes home delivery of the Wichita
Eagle on the days that the ads appear.) Therefore, they get advertising benefit at the margin from having their names on cars only when those cars are taken outside the local media market. There may be some value in letting a person from Hutchinson know that a Chevy Malibu can be bought from Joe Self in Wichita or Don Hattan in Park City, but that goes away once the car is driven much further away, say to New York or the Colorado Front Range.
In contradistinction, passive advertising is of more benefit at the margin to locally based produce farmers (or their cooperatives) since it not only draws business to the specific entity shown, but also raises general awareness of the benefits of eating local.
License plate frames make it hard to apply tax stickers (which we have in Kansas), stuck-on dealer nameplates gather grime, and painted-on dealer marks ruin the clean appearance of the paint. The buyer typically never receives any benefit (such as money off the purchase price) to offset the inconvenience, and application of the mark is often a matter of customer inertia.
On the other hand, when you bring home produce in Farmer X's or Grower Cooperative Y's reusable bag, the benefit is in the eating!
Sometimes the advertising benefit of dealer marks is completely nugatory--for example, there are quite a few Saturns rolling around Wichita with painted-on Saturn of Wichita marks even though all of the Saturn franchises nationwide are long gone.
QuoteIt's hardly the first time I heard of someone doing this. While it's fine if someone doesn't want the info on their vehicles and they can do whatever they want, I think the reasoning is misplaced.
I think the distinction is solid. In the one case, passive advertising helps a small local producer stay in business while raising consciousness of the health, taste, and environmental benefits of eating local. In the other case, the business identified through the passive advertising is the mere local agent of a multinational conglomerate. As such, his or her function is to furnish a convenient local outlet to the distribution chain, and in that capacity he or she is essentially interchangeable. There will always be local salespeople for a given car brand, regardless of who employs them--the true controlling variable is the popularity of that brand's models, which is largely dependent on design, manufacturing, and pricing decisions made at a remote HQ.
Quote from: briantroutman on March 14, 2015, 03:44:29 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2015, 05:02:14 PM
How do you know they're all rental cars? Do they all have rental plates or frames or something?
Rental cars are pretty easy to spot based on a combination of hints...recent model car, no dealer insignia or license plate frame, no bumper stickers or personalizations of any kind, "no smoking" stickers on the windows... But the dead giveaway is the set of barcode stickers at the corners of front and side glass.
Jalopnik posted a field guide to spotting rentals (http://jalopnik.com/here-s-how-you-can-easily-spot-a-rental-car-1660754908) –which pretty much confirmed everything I've learned watching the many obvious tourists in San Francisco.
The other giveaway is that the licence plates are usually recent variants. This is harder in some states but easier in others (Washington has just started ascending from AAA0000 down to ZZZ9999, so obviously the farther away from the former, the newer the plate). My dad drives a pure white Toyota Camry with no dealer info at all (no licence plate frame or stickers). Two giveways that he's not a renter: his licence plate is 2 years old, and he has a DOD sticker in the window (which most people miss).
Also, car color. Rental cars are very often monochromatic (grey, black, white, silver). I see red on occasion, sometimes dark blue (I drive rentals for a living).
Two identifying factors I use for rental cars:
(1) Is it a Chevy Captiva? The Captiva is a fleet only car in the US, and while you could buy a used one off rental (like my aunt and uncle did), the vast majority of Captivas on the road today are rentals.
(2) Does it have a Blount County TN plate? I notice the counties on TN plates because I look to see if it matches the county that my folks live in. What I've noticed is that in New England, almost every TN plate I see is a Blount County plate. I also notice other identifying rental marks like those referenced in the Jalopnik article.
Further research reveals that those Blount County plates are most likely a Hertz rental: https://countytrip.wordpress.com/2013/10/25/the-mystery-of-the-blount-county-plates/ (https://countytrip.wordpress.com/2013/10/25/the-mystery-of-the-blount-county-plates/)
Quote from: formulanone on March 15, 2015, 09:26:03 AM
Quote from: cjk374 on March 14, 2015, 09:48:46 PM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on March 14, 2015, 03:15:05 PM
Some of us remove the dealer's license plate frame the second the car leaves the lot.
Yes indeed...and peel off the sticker with the dealership's name on the back glass or back bumper. The way I look at it, they didn't pay for the space on my car to advertise themselves.
The only time I've kept the license plate frame is when I worked for the said dealership.
Some areas in Texas over-enforce the "nothing shall obstruct the license plate" law to mean that all license plate frames are forbidden. The last car I bought, about four different people in the finalizing process offered to remove the frame for me. They said they are required to have them on all cars sold, but have had enough dissatisfaction from new car purchasers having been ticketed and fined that they are trying to find the right balance between following the corporate mandate and (the local interpretation of) the law.
I have seen several modifications of the badges and markings, too. It's fairly common to see "OMG" tacked just in front of "AWD" or to see the "X" peeled away from the Carmax logo.
Quote from: US81 on March 16, 2015, 07:54:41 AM
Quote from: formulanone on March 15, 2015, 09:26:03 AM
Quote from: cjk374 on March 14, 2015, 09:48:46 PM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on March 14, 2015, 03:15:05 PM
Some of us remove the dealer's license plate frame the second the car leaves the lot.
Yes indeed...and peel off the sticker with the dealership's name on the back glass or back bumper. The way I look at it, they didn't pay for the space on my car to advertise themselves.
The only time I've kept the license plate frame is when I worked for the said dealership.
Some areas in Texas over-enforce the "nothing shall obstruct the license plate" law to mean that all license plate frames are forbidden. The last car I bought, about four different people in the finalizing process offered to remove the frame for me. They said they are required to have them on all cars sold, but have had enough dissatisfaction from new car purchasers having been ticketed and fined that they are trying to find the right balance between following the corporate mandate and (the local interpretation of) the law.
I have seen several modifications of the badges and markings, too. It's fairly common to see "OMG" tacked just in front of "AWD" or to see the "X" peeled away from the Carmax logo.
I am okay with the plate frame version of dealer advertizing. It is easily removed, can sometimes serve a purpose, and is fairly innocent.
There is an old tradition, at least in finer goods, of a retailer leaving some kind of an insignia on products–a label sewn into the lining of a coat, an imprint inside the front cover of a book, etc. It's a relic of an era when well-heeled customers had cordial relationships with local merchants who assorted some of the finer things the world had to offer and brought them to their clients on a personal basis. So assumably in that world, the customer was more receptive to associating him/herself with the discriminating taste of the merchant.
Now–and particularly in automobile sales–you know as much about the product as the dealer. He's merely an impediment (and additional layer of mark-up) standing between you and what you already know you want to buy. If you could do an Amazon-style one click order directly with the manufacturer, you probably would. And so most consumers only think of auto dealers as "those **** who screwed me" .
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 15, 2015, 08:25:52 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 15, 2015, 05:12:27 PMOn a wider scale, I look at it this way: There's a lot of focus on buying local.
I don't think car dealers offer a good analogy to the costermongers who support a locavorist lifestyle...
Without debating the merits of local car dealers being a legitimate part of the "shop local" movement, I can definitely say that the perception that they
are does exist, particularly in smaller communities where you're more likely to find long-running family owned dealerships. In my hometown, there was a very obvious contrast between the local dealers–who sponsored Little League teams, were fixtures at Rotary meetings, had children in the local schools, etc.–and the regional superstores. If you wanted a rock-bottom price, you'd drive an hour or more to one of the destination superstores, but if you wanted to amble down the street to the local showroom, shoot the breeze over the hood of a new '87 Taurus, and feel like an upstanding citizen, you'd buy from Lee Folk Ford.
My understanding, though, is that changes in the size and ownership of car dealerships has in recent years paralleled what has happened in radio, which is to say that most of the small town operations have folded, and control rests with a decreasing number of multi-billion-dollar owners.
I think dealer frames serve some other purposes, too. Sometimes the reverse of the example above–as a way of saying "Screw you overpriced dealers of [name of town]. I went all the way to [other far away city] to get my car." Or if the dealer plate is from far away, it can say "Yes I now live in this miserable state/town but I used to live in ______." A dealer plate frame makes the statement a bit subtler because it's not as if
you went out and purchased it–it came with the car.
* * *
Returning the Sentra, I saw another Sentra with its trunk seal still in place (albeit broken), so I snapped a pic.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8625/16835709045_1aa6b1fa76_c.jpg)
I don't care a bit about "buying local" , be it cars or food.
As to dealer ads on cars, these come off my car, day one. We have a couple of dealers around here that put the front plate holder on (we don't have front plates) and puts an ad plate on there. Front plate holders ruin the look of many cars and I would pass those lots if I had such a car in mind.
NC has a rule about plate frames, which gets enforced. Nothing can cover the state name or any validation stickers. Enforced both in and out of state cars.
But the thing that amazes me is people that pay for a personalized plate, and then put a dealer frame around it. You paid extra for a design and then let the dealer put a frame around it?
Quote from: SP Cook on March 17, 2015, 06:47:10 AM
I don't care a bit about "buying local" , be it cars or food.
As to dealer ads on cars, these come off my car, day one. We have a couple of dealers around here that put the front plate holder on (we don't have front plates) and puts an ad plate on there. Front plate holders ruin the look of many cars and I would pass those lots if I had such a car in mind.
NC has a rule about plate frames, which gets enforced. Nothing can cover the state name or any validation stickers. Enforced both in and out of state cars.
But the thing that amazes me is people that pay for a personalized plate, and then put a dealer frame around it. You paid extra for a design and then let the dealer put a frame around it?
What parts of North Carolina do they enforce the plate frame thing? I've driven all over the state with my car and my plate frame (for my alma mater) and have never once encountered any trouble for it.
I've seen tons of people with dealer or other plate frames who aren't stopped either.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 17, 2015, 06:47:10 AM
NC has a rule about plate frames, which gets enforced. Nothing can cover the state name or any validation stickers. Enforced both in and out of state cars.
Massachusetts has a similar law. Although only the state name, numbers, and valdation sticker are supposed to remain unobscured, some inspection stations are overzealous and will flunk you if the frame obscures the slogan (The Spirit Of America) as well. This despite court rulings upholding the right of individuals to cover the slogan.
Quote from: roadman on March 17, 2015, 09:12:28 AM
Quote from: SP Cook on March 17, 2015, 06:47:10 AM
NC has a rule about plate frames, which gets enforced. Nothing can cover the state name or any validation stickers. Enforced both in and out of state cars.
Massachusetts has a similar law. Although only the state name, numbers, and valdation sticker are supposed to remain unobscured, some inspection stations are overzealous and will flunk you if the frame obscures the slogan (The Spirit Of America) as well. This despite court rulings upholding the right of individuals to cover the slogan.
An inspection station in Quincy removed a Red Sox license plate frame from my wife's car because it obscured the state name. They didn't flunk it, but when she picked it up they made no mention of removing it until she asked why it was gone. "Oh we had to take it off because it covers 'Massachusetts'. Do you want it? I think it's still in the trash can."
Must have been a Yankees fan.
NJ has a similar law that prohibits obscuring any part of the license plate. It's usually not enforced, but if a cop needs a reason to stop someone, this provides that reason.
Quote from: roadman on March 17, 2015, 09:12:28 AM
Quote from: SP Cook on March 17, 2015, 06:47:10 AM
NC has a rule about plate frames, which gets enforced. Nothing can cover the state name or any validation stickers. Enforced both in and out of state cars.
Massachusetts has a similar law. Although only the state name, numbers, and valdation sticker are supposed to remain unobscured, some inspection stations are overzealous and will flunk you if the frame obscures the slogan (The Spirit Of America) as well. This despite court rulings upholding the right of individuals to cover the slogan.
This is why private inspection station states are bad. They can literally hold your car hostage for the slightest of reasons...and questionable reasons. I've heard some stories from my PA coworkers about the things that need to be fixed on their 1 or 2 year old cars, problems which never seem to occur to cars in states with public inspection stations or none at all.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on March 17, 2015, 08:55:05 AM
Quote from: SP Cook on March 17, 2015, 06:47:10 AM
I don't care a bit about "buying local" , be it cars or food.
As to dealer ads on cars, these come off my car, day one. We have a couple of dealers around here that put the front plate holder on (we don't have front plates) and puts an ad plate on there. Front plate holders ruin the look of many cars and I would pass those lots if I had such a car in mind.
NC has a rule about plate frames, which gets enforced. Nothing can cover the state name or any validation stickers. Enforced both in and out of state cars.
But the thing that amazes me is people that pay for a personalized plate, and then put a dealer frame around it. You paid extra for a design and then let the dealer put a frame around it?
What parts of North Carolina do they enforce the plate frame thing? I've driven all over the state with my car and my plate frame (for my alma mater) and have never once encountered any trouble for it.
I've seen tons of people with dealer or other plate frames who aren't stopped either.
I've had no problems in North Carolina either. I have a feeling it's the sort of thing the average cop is unlikely to do much about unless you've done something else to draw his attention.
Regarding dealer-supplied plate frames, the Acura dealer from whom I bought my car normally puts one on the car in lieu of a dealer nameplate or sticker, but since I had the plates from my prior car (declared a total by insurance), when I handed them the plates I gave them the plate frame I was already using and they put that on instead of theirs. Nice.
As far as front plates go, having both front and rear plates is the law here and it's pretty much a given that you'll get stopped at some point if you have Virginia plates but don't display the front plate. More importantly, even if Virginia cops ignore you, DC's parking enforcement will give you a ticket, so I just deal with it. (I'm completely serious. DC law requires front and rear plates on all vehicles, but the law contains an exception for vehicles from states that issue only a rear plate. If your vehicle is not bearing a plate from one of those states and you don't have a front plate displayed, DC will ticket you.)
Briantroutman--many thanks for a thoughtful post.
Quote from: briantroutman on March 16, 2015, 07:57:43 PM
There is an old tradition, at least in finer goods, of a retailer leaving some kind of an insignia on products–a label sewn into the lining of a coat, an imprint inside the front cover of a book, etc. It's a relic of an era when well-heeled customers had cordial relationships with local merchants who assorted some of the finer things the world had to offer and brought them to their clients on a personal basis. So assumably in that world, the customer was more receptive to associating him/herself with the discriminating taste of the merchant.
In the case of automobiles, I don't think this long survived the days of custom coach bodies.
QuoteNow–and particularly in automobile sales–you know as much about the product as the dealer. He's merely an impediment (and additional layer of mark-up) standing between you and what you already know you want to buy. If you could do an Amazon-style one click order directly with the manufacturer, you probably would. And so most consumers only think of auto dealers as "those **** who screwed me" .
Dealers also still have a role as repair shops of last resort. If you have a problem with a car that requires access to a $3000 piece of diagnostic equipment, the dealer is probably the only place where you will find it. Some ostensibly simple repair operations are literally impossible to perform correctly without such high-end equipment. For example, in my 1994 Saturn with ABS, I cannot replace the pads in the rear disc brakes without a tool to "park" the ABS motors so the old pads can be removed. (There is a hillbilly DIY procedure for parking the motors that involves removing a connector and shorting two terminals, but as this causes the pistons to move up abruptly, it can damage the motor pack and is not recommended.)
This is one reason (besides dealers being an entrenched lobby) that I seriously doubt we will ever transition to being able to buy cars as if they were white goods like refrigerators or microwaves.
QuoteWithout debating the merits of local car dealers being a legitimate part of the "shop local" movement, I can definitely say that the perception that they are does exist, particularly in smaller communities where you're more likely to find long-running family owned dealerships. In my hometown, there was a very obvious contrast between the local dealers–who sponsored Little League teams, were fixtures at Rotary meetings, had children in the local schools, etc.–and the regional superstores. If you wanted a rock-bottom price, you'd drive an hour or more to one of the destination superstores, but if you wanted to amble down the street to the local showroom, shoot the breeze over the hood of a new '87 Taurus, and feel like an upstanding citizen, you'd buy from Lee Folk Ford.
This can run in the other direction too. For example, in the autumn of 1985, my parents drove to Arkansas City (about 60 miles away from Wichita) to buy a 1986 Nissan Maxima from Zane Gray Nissan, a small dealer based there. It would have been more convenient to buy in Wichita, but at the time the Maxima was so popular (rave reviews in
Consumer Reports, etc.) that all of the Wichita-area dealers were selling it at a huge markup over MSRP. Zane Gray was the only dealer my parents could find within reasonable driving distance of Wichita that was not gouging and would sell them the car at MSRP. The car wound up staying in the family for 22 years, during which time it was driven to 44 US states, 4 Canadian provinces, and 2 Mexican states, and it outlasted the dealership, which folded about 10 years after the original purchase despite its Western-author name.
QuoteMy understanding, though, is that changes in the size and ownership of car dealerships has in recent years paralleled what has happened in radio, which is to say that most of the small town operations have folded, and control rests with a decreasing number of multi-billion-dollar owners.
I think dealer frames serve some other purposes, too. Sometimes the reverse of the example above–as a way of saying "Screw you overpriced dealers of [name of town]. I went all the way to [other far away city] to get my car." Or if the dealer plate is from far away, it can say "Yes I now live in this miserable state/town but I used to live in ______." A dealer plate frame makes the statement a bit subtler because it's not as if you went out and purchased it–it came with the car.
I don't think there is a new-car dealership left even in Wichita, a mid-size town of about 400,000 people, that qualifies as a small, community-focused operation. And some of them have baggage that would make it very strange for them to do things like sponsoring Little League teams. As an example, the founder of the major Ford dealership in Wichita had to go to federal prison in the 1970's for income tax evasion. He was also a notorious womanizer and serial sex harasser and at the time he died, shortly after 2000, he was under indictment for having sex with an underage girl. When my aunt did accounting work at his dealership at the start of her career in the mid-1970's, her bosses warned her that he had a glass table in his conference room, so she should always wear slacks; moreover, she should take pains never to be alone with him in the same room.
There is one Chevy dealership in Park City (just north of Wichita) that, though a large operation, has been in the same family for three generations. The current owner is now a woman. I could see someone agreeing to her putting the dealer name on a new car, on the basis that car dealers (and auto sales in general) are far too male-dominated and that gender balance would not just get rid of the glass ceiling but also ameliorate the shopping experience for customers regardless of gender. I would not agree to it myself, however, because the dealership is still under the name of the two previous male owners.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 17, 2015, 11:27:22 AM
There is one Chevy dealership in Park City (just north of Wichita) that, though a large operation, has been in the same family for three generations. The current owner is now a woman. I could see someone agreeing to her putting the dealer name on a new car, on the basis that car dealers (and auto sales in general) are far too male-dominated and that gender balance would not just get rid of the glass ceiling but also ameliorate the shopping experience for customers regardless of gender. I would not agree to it myself, however, because the dealership is still under the name of the two previous male owners.
The Washington D.C. area has a few auto dealers who have or imply female ownership, including at least Karen Radley Acura and Volkswagen (but some other Radley dealerships do not carry her name), and the huge Koons chain (Krystal Koons shows up a lot in the company's ads, but I'm not sure where she fits in her family's business). Both companies are large enough operations that, if you shop there, the odds of your ever seeing Karen or Krystal are pretty close to zero.
Tammy Darvish was also a well-known female name among local car dealers, as an executive VP and front person for the local Darcars dealership network, but that went away after she sued her father over ownership of the company.
My impression is that the great majority of small dealerships in this area (and in general, frankly) got flushed out during the 2008 auto industry collapse. I recall automakers revoking the franchise of some, but others surely just took too big a hit from the drop in liquid consumer funds.
The Ford Lincoln and in the lot next to theirs, Subaru Dealer here is fairly good. They are still a local operation and the service department at the ford side actually has good sales on stuff like batteries and tires. All they do is sell Ford/Lincoln and Subaru, as well as a truck leasing company. All locally based, their dealer sticker has not changed much in 25 years. Just says MILLER in a very 80s font with MT HOLLY NJ underneath. I am not a fan of these regional mega dealers that seem to downgrade car buying into a shopping experience and overcharge due to the franchise price of having that big name.
Trends of dealership consolidations and acquisitions has been on the rise for a few years now. There's still some single-rooftop dealers or those with 2-3 stores in one city (usually dominating the local market in a small way), but it's becoming increasingly less the case, nationwide. There's some successful dealers in which the owner is set to retire, but the family wants nothing to do with the business, so it becomes part of a Large Dealer Group's portfolio.
That said, I've worked for dealers in which the customer actually wants the license plate frame in place of the one the car is already sporting. So some have a great reputation, and others either do not, or have no reputation nor heritage to flaunt. That's a big reason many "new points" have names like "Nissan of North Southchesterburg" or "Central Valleyton Audi" which is convienent during a change of ownership or a turnover in staff doesn't tarnish the name.
I dislike plate frames of any sort simply for aesthetic reasons. I prefer the simpler look of a bare plate.
Quote from: Duke87 on March 17, 2015, 08:33:25 PM
I dislike plate frames of any sort simply for aesthetic reasons. I prefer the simpler look of a bare plate.
I never saw the need until wrestling in between snow banks winter after winter turned my front plate into something like a crumpled-up napkin. I need some kind of rigid-backed frame on there.
Quote from: Duke87 on March 17, 2015, 08:33:25 PM
I dislike plate frames of any sort simply for aesthetic reasons. I prefer the simpler look of a bare plate.
I should probably have one for the front plate on my RX-7 because the car was not designed with a front plate in mind and the bracket they added is of a design that means if someone parallel-parks New York—style, the plate gets nicked and beat-up. The bracket is essentially just two small vertical pieces of metal to which the plate gets bolted.
http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/5846986.html
http://www.snopes.com/politics/traffic/texasplate.asp "The Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS) provided us with the ambiguous answer that "the new language could affect license plate brackets, borders or frames if they interfere with the 'readability' of the state where the vehicle is registered" and noted that "DPS policy and interpretation are not binding on law enforcement agencies around the state." In other words, it's up to every local police department to interpret the new law as it sees fit, and any definitive interpretation will come only once some cases involving this law have been brought before the Texas judicial system."
The reported experience of drivers in some areas is that police can use this law both as justification for a stop for an otherwise law-abiding driver and as an add-on to increase revenue by generating multiple offenses from one stop.
QuoteThe reported experience of drivers in some areas is that police can use this law (license plate frames) both as justification for a stop for an otherwise law-abiding driver...
The following would work as well:
The reported experience of drivers in some areas is that police can use this law (broken headlight) both as justification for a stop for an otherwise law-abiding driver...
Or....
The reported experience of drivers in some areas is that police can use this law (speeding) both as justification for a stop for an otherwise law-abiding driver...
It doesn't matter the violation, and if the driver is otherwise doing everything right: If the driver is operating a car that's not operating legally in some fashion, he/she can be stopped and ticketed.
While some people discount the importance of being able to see the state name on the tag number, it would be important if a cop was trying to determine what state that tag was from. Or, if AAA-123 went thru a red light camera intersection, or a toll lane without paying and it was caught on camera, someone reviewing that may mistake one state's plate for another, and send the bill to the wrong person. And we've read horror stories on here of people trying to get it dismissed because it wasn't their car!
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2015, 09:18:59 AM
....
While some people discount the importance of being able to see the state name on the tag number, it would be important if a cop was trying to determine what state that tag was from. Or, if AAA-123 went thru a red light camera intersection, or a toll lane without paying and it was caught on camera, someone reviewing that may mistake one state's plate for another, and send the bill to the wrong person. And we've read horror stories on here of people trying to get it dismissed because it wasn't their car!
Absolutely. I had a friend in high school who took great delight in the fact that his license-plate frame covered up part of one of the letters in his plate number. Because of that, I still remember that his plate began with "OEY" (I do not remember the numbers) but it looked like "OFY" due to the frame. That sort of thing should be grounds for a ticket, IMO, though I'd find it reasonable if the cop stopping such a person simply pulled out a socket wrench and said, "Remove the frame right now while I watch."
I'm a bit surprised my wife has never gotten a ticket because she has a plate frame on the front of her car that covers up not only the state name but also the "month" and "year" expiration-date stickers. Covering up the state name likely isn't a big deal because it hasn't been driven further from home than Linden, Virginia (about 60 miles west of home), in the past few years, but covering up the expiration date is a problem. The rear plate is unobstructed, though.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 18, 2015, 09:42:41 AM
...the "month" and "year" expiration-date stickers...
And if someone sticks a sticker in the center of the plate, or the top right corner, when the instructions clearly say the left corner, then that should be grounds for lethal injection.
Maybe that's a bit overboard, but if they can't properly mount a sticker on a license plate, they're probably a mass murderer as well.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2015, 09:47:02 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 18, 2015, 09:42:41 AM
...the "month" and "year" expiration-date stickers...
And if someone sticks a sticker in the center of the plate, or the top right corner, when the instructions clearly say the left corner, then that should be grounds for lethal injection.
Maybe that's a bit overboard, but if they can't properly mount a sticker on a license plate, they're probably a mass murderer as well.
Plates here have two stickers each for the front and rear plates. The "month" sticker goes on the left and the "year" sticker goes on the right. Which corner (top or bottom) varies by plate design. I see all sorts of bizarre things, though. Some people put both "month" stickers on the rear plate and both "year" stickers on the front, or vice versa. Some people alternate the side for the "year" sticker each year (e.g., the plate might have "14" on the left and "15" on the right). Some people put the stickers directly below, or above, the words "month" and "year" on the plate as if those words are supposed to be explanatory captions (because cops clearly wouldn't understand what "DEC 15" means).
It seems to me it shouldn't be a big deal UNLESS you do something that makes it impossible for a cop viewing the plate to determine its expiration date–for example, alternating the side for the "year" sticker, such that the "month" sticker is covered, means you don't know whether the plate is valid until you run the plate number. (Similarly, putting both "month" stickers on the front and both "year" on the back, so you have "JUN JUN" and "15 15," should be a ticketable offense.) However, I do know someone who got a ticket in DC for "improper display of a license plate" when he had the stickers backwards on his Virginia plate–I don't remember the month and year, but using the current month, it would have said "15 MAR" instead of "MAR 15." I think that sort of ticket is obnoxious and unnecessary, but at the same time, it's a trivial matter to put the stickers on correctly in the first place.
One guy on the next block over from us simply has no "month" or "year" stickers on his plate at all. I'm not sure how he escapes getting ticketed.
I suppose this is now getting totally off-track from the trunk being taped shut.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 18, 2015, 10:31:37 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2015, 09:47:02 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 18, 2015, 09:42:41 AM
...the "month" and "year" expiration-date stickers...
And if someone sticks a sticker in the center of the plate, or the top right corner, when the instructions clearly say the left corner, then that should be grounds for lethal injection.
Maybe that's a bit overboard, but if they can't properly mount a sticker on a license plate, they're probably a mass murderer as well.
Plates here have two stickers each for the front and rear plates. The "month" sticker goes on the left and the "year" sticker goes on the right. Which corner (top or bottom) varies by plate design. I see all sorts of bizarre things, though.
Bizarre overkill. Illinois may be archaic in having both front and rear plates, but we only have one sticker that goes on the rear plate only. No one really cares so long as the sticker is visible.
Quote from: Brandon on March 18, 2015, 10:58:36 AM
Bizarre overkill. Illinois may be archaic in having both front and rear plates, but we only have one sticker that goes on the rear plate only. No one really cares so long as the sticker is visible.
After about ten years of issuing single plates, Massachusetts went back to issuing two plates for new registrations, but only issues a sticker for the rear plate. The rationale behind this is to prevent the possibilty of a person using the front plate as a rear plate on another vehicle.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 18, 2015, 07:49:09 AMI should probably have one for the front plate on my RX-7 because the car was not designed with a front plate in mind and the bracket they added is of a design that means if someone parallel-parks New York—style, the plate gets nicked and beat-up. The bracket is essentially just two small vertical pieces of metal to which the plate gets bolted.
I don't think I have ever had a car with wholly satisfactory provision for mounting a front license plate. The 1986 Maxima is the only car we have had in this family that we bought new with a front bracket, probably because it was purchased at a border-town dealership and Oklahoma requires front plates (Kansas itself does not). It would have supported a license plate mounted to it only at the top, which is a recipe for a lengthwise bend in service.
In my opinion, a bracket for a front license plate should support the entire area of the plate in a flat plane, allowing it to be mounted securely without a frame or any other device for increasing rigidity.
Quote from: Brandon on March 18, 2015, 10:58:36 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 18, 2015, 10:31:37 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2015, 09:47:02 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 18, 2015, 09:42:41 AM
...the "month" and "year" expiration-date stickers...
And if someone sticks a sticker in the center of the plate, or the top right corner, when the instructions clearly say the left corner, then that should be grounds for lethal injection.
Maybe that's a bit overboard, but if they can't properly mount a sticker on a license plate, they're probably a mass murderer as well.
Plates here have two stickers each for the front and rear plates. The "month" sticker goes on the left and the "year" sticker goes on the right. Which corner (top or bottom) varies by plate design. I see all sorts of bizarre things, though.
Bizarre overkill. Illinois may be archaic in having both front and rear plates, but we only have one sticker that goes on the rear plate only. No one really cares so long as the sticker is visible.
A couple of years ago there was a study of going just to two decals (a month decal and a year decal on the rear plate only) and it was determined it would save the state a maximum of about $110,000 a year, bearing in mind most times when they issue decals it's for a plate renewal, so they only have to issue two (new "year" decals because the month remains the same). They decided it wasn't enough of a cost savings to bother.
Seems the other reasons they didn't want to change were (1) if a car is parked backwards against a wall, it'd be hard for a cop or meter maid to tell whether the plate is expired; (2) unless you reissue all new plates (which defeats any cost savings), people would have to remove the existing stickers from the front plate, which would be messy and would cause confusion if people failed to remove them (and I'm sure some people would still put them on the wrong plate).
The stickers are an utterly minor nuisance, trivial in the scheme of things. Having to have two plates is more of an annoyance.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2015, 09:18:59 AM
QuoteThe reported experience of drivers in some areas is that police can use this law (license plate frames) both as justification for a stop for an otherwise law-abiding driver...
The following would work as well:
The reported experience of drivers in some areas is that police can use this law (broken headlight) both as justification for a stop for an otherwise law-abiding driver...
Or....
The reported experience of drivers in some areas is that police can use this law (speeding) both as justification for a stop for an otherwise law-abiding driver...
It doesn't matter the violation, and if the driver is otherwise doing everything right: If the driver is operating a car that's not operating legally in some fashion, he/she can be stopped and ticketed.
While some people discount the importance of being able to see the state name on the tag number, it would be important if a cop was trying to determine what state that tag was from. Or, if AAA-123 went thru a red light camera intersection, or a toll lane without paying and it was caught on camera, someone reviewing that may mistake one state's plate for another, and send the bill to the wrong person. And we've read horror stories on here of people trying to get it dismissed because it wasn't their car!
I am not disagreeing that the all the numbers, letters, stickers, all identifying information should be completely visible. I do have a problem with widely inconsistent enforcement. I do have a problem with ticketing when the frame does not obscure the license plate in any way, when all the numbers and letters, the state name and logo and all images are completely visible.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 18, 2015, 10:31:37 AM
One guy on the next block over from us simply has no "month" or "year" stickers on his plate at all. I'm not sure how he escapes getting ticketed.
NJ tried plate stickers for 5 years since they were moving to 2 year inspections and could no longer use the inspection sticker as a rudimentary proof of registration (the theory was you couldn't get a car inspection without proof of registration). Nobody could figure out how to put them on the plate right, so they got rid of them figuring they serve no real purpose since a police officer is going to run the plate to check registration status anyway (the state was progressive for once!). So, NJ saves money and is one of the few states that have no visible way of telling if a plate is valid or not. Plate stickers on motorcycles, trailers and commercial vehicles were around since the 60s, they were only eliminated 2 years ago.
Plate stickers sometimes landed up in odd places too: http://njplates.moini.net/njfunny.html
In my opinion, if you're in a state with a front/back plate then a plate frame on at least one side should be okay. Plate frames actually have a point on front plates since they're often the only protection that plates have. Despite most of the country requiring front plates, most car manufacturers still don't make cars with a front indentation for the plate.
The front plate on my car has nothing behind it on the bottom. When I had CT plates on it this was never really an issue but after putting NY plates on it it has gotten a bit bent up fairly quickly. It would seem that NY plates are thinner and flimsier than CT plates, much like how NY licenses are thinner and flimsier than CT licenses.
Connecticut did away with plate stickers in 2007 and occasionally you may still see a CT plated car driving around with a sticker on it with a 2007 expiration date. Perfectly legal since the sticker no longer has any meaning. Connecticut then did away with window stickers in 2011 such that now vehicles with CT registrations have no sticker of any sort. Instead, cops have automated license plate readers with live access to the DMV system, and so if your registration is expired, or you're past due for inspection, or anything of the sort, the computer will tell them.
New York has not advanced so far technologically yet and still has window stickers for registrations (every 2 years), and a separate window sticker for inspections (yearly). The upshot to this is that the registration sticker says the year, make, and model of the car on it, so if you encounter a car parked on the street that catches your interest you can quickly verify exactly what it is.
Quote from: NJRoadfan on March 18, 2015, 08:42:53 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 18, 2015, 10:31:37 AM
One guy on the next block over from us simply has no "month" or "year" stickers on his plate at all. I'm not sure how he escapes getting ticketed.
NJ tried plate stickers for 5 years since they were moving to 2 year inspections and could no longer use the inspection sticker as a rudimentary proof of registration (the theory was you couldn't get a car inspection without proof of registration). Nobody could figure out how to put them on the plate right, so they got rid of them figuring they serve no real purpose since a police officer is going to run the plate to check registration status anyway (the state was progressive for once!). So, NJ saves money and is one of the few states that have no visible way of telling if a plate is valid or not. Plate stickers on motorcycles, trailers and commercial vehicles were around since the 60s, they were only eliminated 2 years ago.
Plate stickers sometimes landed up in odd places too: http://njplates.moini.net/njfunny.html
I remember that the 1993-2008 era of plates, even my 2010 issued Agriculture plate (i have a regular flat base one now) had the boxes for stickers.
Quote from: NJRoadfan on March 18, 2015, 08:42:53 PM
Plate stickers sometimes landed up in odd places too: http://njplates.moini.net/njfunny.html
Thanks for that!
Quote from: The Nature Boy on March 18, 2015, 08:55:07 PM
Despite most of the country requiring front plates, most car manufacturers still don't make cars with a front indentation for the plate.
A lot of cars are "world cars", meaning they remain mostly unchanged throughout world-wide sales. As such, front plate indentations just for the American market don't seem to make a lot of sense financially. For example, Europe uses stick on front plates (not sure as to the type of adhesive). No indentation required. Further, if you look on the back of some cars, the indent for the plate is often wider than the plate by a significant amount. This is to save money because the wider indent fits all of the world's licence plates.
Quote from: jakeroot on March 19, 2015, 04:05:33 PMA lot of cars are "world cars", meaning they remain mostly unchanged throughout world-wide sales. As such, front plate indentations just for the American market don't seem to make a lot of sense financially. For example, Europe uses stick on front plates (not sure as to the type of adhesive). No indentation required. Further, if you look on the back of some cars, the indent for the plate is often wider than the plate by a significant amount. This is to save money because the wider indent fits all of the world's licence plates.
A few observations:
* Automakers don't have to provide an indentation on front as long as they provide a bracket and attachment points for it.
* I don't think it is generally true that European countries use adhesive-fixed license plates. In Britain, for example, screw mounting is the norm, as in the US, even though license plates stay with the car by default.
* Even world cars have a significant amount of country-specific hardware without taking different formats of license plates into consideration. The front bumper, which is the usual mounting point for front license plates, is one of the easiest things to naturalize to a particular country.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 19, 2015, 05:38:59 PM
* Automakers don't have to provide an indentation on front as long as they provide a bracket and attachment points for it.
Do any [new] cars have indentations for the front plate? I was eating at Arby's while thinking about this post, and, watching through the large front windows onto the street, not one car had an indent for the plate. About 1/3 had a bracket and the other 2/3 had the plate screwed straight into the bumper.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 19, 2015, 05:38:59 PM
* Even world cars have a significant amount of country-specific hardware without taking different formats of license plates into consideration. The front bumper, which is the usual mounting point for front license plates, is one of the easiest things to naturalize to a particular country.
True, but unless it's required by law, car manufacturers generally won't change things country to country. Since licence-plate-indents are not required by regulation, most won't bother. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but there'd be little reason beyond some sales concern (like a car name unlikely to sell well, et al).
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 19, 2015, 05:38:59 PM
* I don't think it is generally true that European countries use adhesive-fixed license plates. In Britain, for example, screw mounting is the norm, as in the US, even though license plates stay with the car by default.
Meh. The British don't consider themselves European anyways. :D
Now that we're on the license plate discussion, I have this question.
How many modern vehicles, if any, have offset front plate mounting, rather than center of the bumper? I seem to remember it common to find many cars, trucks and vans on the roads featuring left or right mounted plates when I was younger. In fact, my first car was a 1984 Oldsmobile Omega, who's front license plate was on the driver's side of the bumper.
Any ideas as to the reason plates in older vehicles were mounted this way?
Quote from: andrewkbrown on March 19, 2015, 10:17:17 PM
Now that we're on the license plate discussion, I have this question.
How many modern vehicles, if any, have offset front plate mounting, rather than center of the bumper? I seem to remember it common to find many cars, trucks and vans on the roads featuring left or right mounted plates when I was younger. In fact, my first car was a 1984 Oldsmobile Omega, who's front license plate was on the driver's side of the bumper.
Any ideas as to the reason plates in older vehicles were mounted this way?
I don't think it's necessarily a question of old vs. new. My family had a Plymouth Voyager in the '90s with the front plate mounting off-center on the driver's side, but we had multiple full-size Oldsmobiles in the '80s–including an '84 Delta 88–with the license plate centered. By my observation, the vast majority of front license plates through all eras have been centered.
Where the front place is off-center, I suspect it's simply an aesthetic consideration. There was an era, roughly from the late '70s through the early '90s when car designs tended to be extremely subdued–grilles were often a flat rectangular grate across the front of the car, hoods were nearly level from left to right, etc.–that some automakers might have opted for an off-center mounting just to add some visual interest. Today, most car designs have gotten more extreme with all kinds of character lines, bulges and creases, radically swept back headlights, and so on, that the design is too busy for anything to be placed off-center.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 18, 2015, 11:29:03 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 18, 2015, 07:49:09 AMI should probably have one for the front plate on my RX-7 because the car was not designed with a front plate in mind and the bracket they added is of a design that means if someone parallel-parks New York—style, the plate gets nicked and beat-up. The bracket is essentially just two small vertical pieces of metal to which the plate gets bolted.
I don't think I have ever had a car with wholly satisfactory provision for mounting a front license plate. The 1986 Maxima is the only car we have had in this family that we bought new with a front bracket, probably because it was purchased at a border-town dealership and Oklahoma requires front plates (Kansas itself does not).
Oklahoma does not require front plates. Missouri does, however. Must have just been some policy particular to that model or dealership.
One of the changes ford made to the focus in 2005 was to make the rear plate area more US sized.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftenwheel.com%2Fimgs%2Fa%2Fa%2Fd%2Fj%2Fx%2F2000_ford_focus_se_sedan_4___door_2___0l_5_lgw.jpg&hash=20093406dbd0e1ea16f0fd99b6c4a43655f856b3)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.motortrend.com%2Ff%2Fwot%2Fmt-2005-2011-ford-focus-chevrolet-compact-cars-69407%2F60499650%2F2005-ford-focus-rear-view.jpg&hash=058eb33431d1da78b836c74865e488c48bcf4045)
Couple of things.
- The last few new cars I have been involved with have been several Toyotas, a Hyundai and a Lincoln. In all case there are tiny pilot holes where the front plate holder would go. In all cases except for the FoMoCo product, the holder itself was in the well where the spare tire was. The Lincoln you had to buy it from the parts department for like $20. I suppose if you live in a state with front plates the dealer just has to eat the cost of that.
- The DC metro area seems to me to be the capital (no pun intended) of dealer ad plate frames. Seems to be a higher %age of cars there than anywhere. Not just DC, with its political slogan that some people might want to quietly cover up, but MD and VA plates too. Even seen dealer plates around Diplomatic plates.
- If you watch NCIS LA the undercover Dodge is illegally missing its front California plate. Since FIAT is paying to have the car in the show, that means even they understand that a front plate ruins the look of a sporty car. In fact, if you look at car ads or the brochures they give out, the cars almost never have front plates.
- As to international there tends to be 3 types. The US standard, the Euro standard (long and narrow), and Australian ones which are kind of in-between those two. Really I think the whole "world car" of making a plate area where all 3 will fit is more a marketing affectation than anything. German cars (particularly Audi) especially. Its more "look at my cool Euro car" than trying to save having 3 part numbers. There are 1000s of more important differences across countries in car design regs than that.
- In Cincinnati, the taxis all have Ohio tags in their proper places and a separate add on plate holder on the rear, with a light, for a Kentucky tag. I assume the Commonwealth won't let taxis come in with out paying for tags (the airport is in Kentucky), but how is this legal? Why would not every state do that to every commercial vehicle.
I've seen cabs in the DC area with license plates from two jurisdictions. I've always assumed the cabbie either uses the vehicle as a personal vehicle, thus requiring it to be registered in his home jurisdiction as well as in the jurisdiction where it's licensed as a taxi, or else it's simply necessary to register in two places due to laws about registering vehicles parked overnight for more than a certain number of days in a year. (In other words, it's no surprise a jurisdiction would require a taxi to be registered as a taxi, and bear taxi plates, in that jurisdiction. But if the vehicle is routinely parked in another jurisdiction, that jurisdiction will want to tax it.)
So maybe Ohio and Kentucky are similar?
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 22, 2015, 11:05:03 AM
I've seen cabs in the DC area with license plates from two jurisdictions. I've always assumed the cabbie either uses the vehicle as a personal vehicle, thus requiring it to be registered in his home jurisdiction as well as in the jurisdiction where it's licensed as a taxi, or else it's simply necessary to register in two places due to laws about registering vehicles parked overnight for more than a certain number of days in a year. (In other words, it's no surprise a jurisdiction would require a taxi to be registered as a taxi, and bear taxi plates, in that jurisdiction. But if the vehicle is routinely parked in another jurisdiction, that jurisdiction will want to tax it.)
So maybe Ohio and Kentucky are similar?
I always wonder how college students get around that. If you go to any college student parking area, you'll see a rainbow of license plates.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 22, 2015, 11:05:03 AM
So maybe Ohio and Kentucky are similar?
I suppose. IIRC, at the airports for DC there are multiple cab lines for MD, DC, or VA. I do know that if you fly into Newark, the NJ cab can take you into NYC but has to "deadhead" back to NJ, and the NYC cabs can take you back to EWR but likewise cannot pick anybody up.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on March 22, 2015, 11:14:24 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 22, 2015, 11:05:03 AM
I've seen cabs in the DC area with license plates from two jurisdictions. I've always assumed the cabbie either uses the vehicle as a personal vehicle, thus requiring it to be registered in his home jurisdiction as well as in the jurisdiction where it's licensed as a taxi, or else it's simply necessary to register in two places due to laws about registering vehicles parked overnight for more than a certain number of days in a year. (In other words, it's no surprise a jurisdiction would require a taxi to be registered as a taxi, and bear taxi plates, in that jurisdiction. But if the vehicle is routinely parked in another jurisdiction, that jurisdiction will want to tax it.)
So maybe Ohio and Kentucky are similar?
I always wonder how college students get around that. If you go to any college student parking area, you'll see a rainbow of license plates.
A lot of states have a codified exemption for college students and military. I came within 24 hours of moving to Nebraska for grad school several years ago (went to Arizona at the last minute instead), and that state, interestingly, didn't require college kids to get license plates but did require them to go the the DMV and pay the state road tax. I have no idea if or how this was enforced.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on March 22, 2015, 11:14:24 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 22, 2015, 11:05:03 AM
I've seen cabs in the DC area with license plates from two jurisdictions. I've always assumed the cabbie either uses the vehicle as a personal vehicle, thus requiring it to be registered in his home jurisdiction as well as in the jurisdiction where it's licensed as a taxi, or else it's simply necessary to register in two places due to laws about registering vehicles parked overnight for more than a certain number of days in a year. (In other words, it's no surprise a jurisdiction would require a taxi to be registered as a taxi, and bear taxi plates, in that jurisdiction. But if the vehicle is routinely parked in another jurisdiction, that jurisdiction will want to tax it.)
So maybe Ohio and Kentucky are similar?
I always wonder how college students get around that. If you go to any college student parking area, you'll see a rainbow of license plates.
Depends. Colleges here generally don't care. The state has a requirement to register here after 30 days, but I am sure this is unenforced for most cars here for part of the year for college. Where it's an issue is for the rising number of jurisdictions with permit street parking. The car in these cases has to be locally registered if parked on the street (don't get me started in how much of a money-making ploy this is even with regard to people from other towns). This also has the added benefit to the municipality of collecting motor vehicle excise tax on more of the cars garaged in their jurisdiction.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on March 22, 2015, 11:14:24 AM
I always wonder how college students get around that. If you go to any college student parking area, you'll see a rainbow of license plates.
College students (and military and their dependents) are an exception to the standard rule that you have to legally move your car plates and DL. Technically you should carry your college issued ID to avoid a problem with the cops in such a circumstance.
Buddy of mine's daughter is a doc. She attended college and med school in two different states, neither of which she lived in legally, without an issue, but then she did her residency in Alabama. Since she was now an employee and not a student, she awoke one day to find her car towed away, because she had lived and worked in Alabama for 60 days without moving. Got a pretty stiff fine on top of all the taxes, not only for her plates but also for her DL. Apparently the Birmingham cops do such a sweep every year, getting the info from UAB.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 22, 2015, 11:28:23 AM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on March 22, 2015, 11:14:24 AM
I always wonder how college students get around that. If you go to any college student parking area, you'll see a rainbow of license plates.
College students (and military and their dependents) are an exception to the standard rule that you have to legally move your car plates and DL. Technically you should carry your college issued ID to avoid a problem with the cops in such a circumstance.
Buddy of mine's daughter is a doc. She attended college and med school in two different states, neither of which she lived in legally, without an issue, but then she did her residency in Alabama. Since she was now an employee and not a student, she awoke one day to find her car towed away, because she had lived and worked in Alabama for 60 days without moving. Got a pretty stiff fine on top of all the taxes, not only for her plates but also for her DL. Apparently the Birmingham cops do such a sweep every year, getting the info from UAB.
This is the issue I faced. I went to undergrad and graduate school in states that are not my state of residence. I still have a driver's license from where I grew up, even if I haven't lived there in 7 years. I'll be moving back there next month anyway.
For street parking though, I agree that it's different. I know for Boston, they require you to have a Massachusetts plate to take advantage of street parking. I know that Washington DC allows you to street park without a DC plate if you pay a fee to the city.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 22, 2015, 11:28:23 AM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on March 22, 2015, 11:14:24 AM
I always wonder how college students get around that. If you go to any college student parking area, you'll see a rainbow of license plates.
College students (and military and their dependents) are an exception to the standard rule that you have to legally move your car plates and DL. Technically you should carry your college issued ID to avoid a problem with the cops in such a circumstance.
Buddy of mine's daughter is a doc. She attended college and med school in two different states, neither of which she lived in legally, without an issue, but then she did her residency in Alabama. Since she was now an employee and not a student, she awoke one day to find her car towed away, because she had lived and worked in Alabama for 60 days without moving. Got a pretty stiff fine on top of all the taxes, not only for her plates but also for her DL. Apparently the Birmingham cops do such a sweep every year, getting the info from UAB.
Typically if you live in a dormitory it is not your permanent residence so you don't officially "live" there. I didn't own a car when I was in college but I still had my ID at my parents' address, and I was registered to vote at my parents' address.
Interesting to know, though, that there are places where it is actually enforced that if you live somewhere you need to register your car there. New York City is not one of them. There are a lot of PA and CT plates on the streets here. And an indeterminate number of NY plates registered upstate.
Yeah, dorms are NOT legally permanent addresses (or even physical addresses - mail comes to PO boxes that have deals with UPS and FedEx to deliver there). Plus people who live in dorms typically park on college lots that have their own parking requirements (vehicles must be registered, which usually isn't free, and often freshmen aren't allowed cars at all). As such, college students who live on campus legally still live at their parents' house. Many states have no incentive to change this because of the political effects that college students voting in local elections would have.
Quote from: vdeane on March 22, 2015, 08:47:30 PM
Yeah, dorms are NOT legally permanent addresses (or even physical addresses - mail comes to PO boxes that have deals with UPS and FedEx to deliver there). Plus people who live in dorms typically park on college lots that have their own parking requirements (vehicles must be registered, which usually isn't free, and often freshmen aren't allowed cars at all). As such, college students who live on campus legally still live at their parents' house. Many states have no incentive to change this because of the political effects that college students voting in local elections would have.
Though when I lived in the dorms in Tacoma, I was able to register to vote in the state of Washington (even fully disclosing that I was a college student with a campus address). Same with Wyoming and UW- there was even a polling place set up on campus. I didn't see anything that would indicate that this was illegal, as long as I renounced my Idaho voter's registration.
Here's a voter guide for New York State that seems to indicate the same (PDF: http://www.lwvny.org/advocacy/vote/RTVCollegeStudents.pdf)
my 1996 ford has a front plate frame, since it was registered in Maryland before i bought it, i could not fathom trying to find one that fits the pointy nose in 2015.
Quote from: corco on March 22, 2015, 08:50:00 PMThough when I lived in the dorms in Tacoma, I was able to register to vote in the state of Washington (even fully disclosing that I was a college student with a campus address). Same with Wyoming and UW- there was even a polling place set up on campus. I didn't see anything that would indicate that this was illegal, as long as I renounced my Idaho voter's registration.
When I was at Kansas State as an in-state student, I had the option of transferring my voter registration from Sedgwick County to Riley County. Every so often the student government types would urge non-local K-Staters to do this so that the student lobby would have real teeth and electoral power. It never worked.
Kentucky allows students to register to vote in the county where their college is located if they live in that community while they're going to school. I kept my registration at home and voted by absentee ballot, except for one special election where I changed my registration to Rowan County, Ky., to vote as a favor to a classmate and friend who lived there.
Kentucky doesn't require out-of-state students to register their vehicles or change their driver's licenses to here, even if the student lives off-campus.
Quote from: vdeane on March 22, 2015, 08:47:30 PM
Yeah, dorms are NOT legally permanent addresses (or even physical addresses - mail comes to PO boxes that have deals with UPS and FedEx to deliver there). Plus people who live in dorms typically park on college lots that have their own parking requirements (vehicles must be registered, which usually isn't free, and often freshmen aren't allowed cars at all). As such, college students who live on campus legally still live at their parents' house. Many states have no incentive to change this because of the political effects that college students voting in local elections would have.
That and changing things like the permanent address and voter registration count towards residency requirements in most states, and the university systems do love collecting out-of-state tuition at 3-5x what in-state students pay.
I think most states allow you to declare your dorm as a domicile for voting purposes. I don't know if you could use your dorm as an address if you tried to get a driver's license though.
Some states allow you to list whatever you want on your DL. I've seen PO boxes and UPS Store box addresses (which are listed as "suites" of the store's main address) on Oklahoma DLs. Some business owners will put their business address on there. Oklahoma DPS appears to really not check as long as it's a valid Oklahoma address.
Some states, including I think VT and CA, will even allow out-of-state addresses. This came up recently as someone gave a CA driver's license with an OK address to a bartender at work once, and he started following the fake ID protocol, got security involved, etc. It took a good portion of an hour to sort out, until management got involved and someone Googled if CA allows out-of-state licenses on IDs.
I think usually one of the bigger issues factoring into registering to vote, registering your car, etc., is with students attending public universities who want to try to qualify for in-state tuition. Most states are (not surprisingly) super-stingy in determining in-state status and often refuse to accept actions such as getting a driver's license, registering to vote, etc., as bona fide evidence of intent to remain in the state when the student is an undergrad. I believe I read somewhere that they have a harder time applying the same exclusionary principles to graduate and professional students, though I don't know for sure (I attended a public university as an undergrad, but I was in-state, and I attended a private university post-grad so it didn't matter). I know in Virginia they require pretty strong evidence that you've abandoned any prior domicile and that you intend to remain in Virginia indefinitely; things like whether your out-of-state parent claims a tax exemption for you factor into the analysis, as does your moving all your stuff home to the other state during the summer.
Most out-of-staters I knew as an undergrad didn't bother to register their cars and such in Virginia because it would not get them in-state status. I never tried to establish North Carolina residency during law school because there was no benefit to me from doing so.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 23, 2015, 07:36:46 AMI believe I read somewhere that they have a harder time applying the same exclusionary principles to graduate and professional students, though I don't know for sure (I attended a public university as an undergrad, but I was in-state, and I attended a private university post-grad so it didn't matter).
I have a friend who moved from Kansas to do a chemistry PhD at Berkeley and had to navigate these issues. He came in with a NSF fellowship. The deal was that he was actually paid a small stipend to be at Berkeley, but had to obtain a California driver's license and meet certain obligations for undergraduate teaching, apparently to be treated as an in-state student. If there was a requirement to transfer his personal vehicle to California, however, it was not enforced, with the result that he kept a Kansas plate on his minivan during his entire degree to avoid the hassles of insurance and smog checks. (AIUI, California cannot refuse registration to a 49-states car or ding it for emissions violations unless it fails to meet the 49-states standards applicable at the time of manufacture, but OBD II makes it very easy for California to declare vehicles not road-legal for relatively trivial problems, often ones that do not involve emissions at all. His minivan was in marginal condition and the transmission died around the time he had his oral exams.)
Quote from: vdeane on March 22, 2015, 08:47:30 PMMany states have no incentive to change this because of the political effects that college students voting in local elections would have.
That was a pretty funny joke you made there about college students voting in local elections.
I think it's a safe bet that most of the scores of thousands of college students who live in this area live off of campuses. Of those that own cars–because this is far from a given–at least half of them probably lack off street parking. Of the areas they tend to live in, Cambridge and Somerville are pretty much all resident permit parking, while Boston varies by neighborhood (by block, really). This adds up to quite a chunk of change in cars that need to be re-registered here, permit fees that need to be paid, and excise tax on each vehicle owed to its respective city or town.
As a constitutional right, you can register to vote wherever you consider to be home. If your home is a dorm room, the state still can't deny your right to vote.
However, most states require living there for a significant period of time as something other than a college student before granting in-state tuition.
And how is the constitutional right going to stand up to Real ID? Now, in order to get or renew a license in a Read ID compliant state, one needs to produce two proofs of residency within the state. In NY (where they're used for enhanced licenses, even though normal licenses here still aren't Real ID compliant), this typically includes things like jury duty summons, a lease/mortgage, and utility bills. Many of these things would not be available to a college student living in an on campus dorm (the selective service registration acknowledgement would work though for cisgendered men and transgendered women, and is probably the easiest proof to obtain for a college student that would have to register for selective service).
http://frontplate.org
Quote from: SteveG1988 on March 23, 2015, 10:19:47 PM
http://frontplate.org
Is 3M so desperate to sell more reflective sheeting that they're willing to spend money on a propaganda website (with a very deceiving .org domain, I might add)?
Quote from: briantroutman on March 23, 2015, 10:25:49 PM
Quote from: SteveG1988 on March 23, 2015, 10:19:47 PM
http://frontplate.org
Is 3M so desperate to sell more reflective sheeting that they're willing to spend money on a propaganda website (with a very deceiving .org domain, I might add)?
Figured it would be a fun way to stop the discussion of Voting and stuff, and get it away from politics.
NJ for a few years went from 3m to Avery for their reflective sheeting, and returned to 3m due to issues.
Quote from: vdeane on March 23, 2015, 10:02:17 PM
And how is the constitutional right going to stand up to Real ID? Now, in order to get or renew a license in a Read ID compliant state, one needs to produce two proofs of residency within the state.
Rental agreement from the dorm. Tuition bill. Bank statement.
Quote from: SteveG1988 on March 23, 2015, 10:19:47 PM
http://frontplate.org
Full of crap. Having a front license plate is an archaic practice that should be terminated by as many states as possible.
Quote from: Brandon on March 24, 2015, 06:25:43 AM
Full of crap. Having a front license plate is an archaic practice that should be terminated by as many states as possible.
Why shouldn't you be able to identify a vehicle from either end?
Quote from: kkt on March 24, 2015, 12:27:20 AM
Quote from: vdeane on March 23, 2015, 10:02:17 PM
And how is the constitutional right going to stand up to Real ID? Now, in order to get or renew a license in a Read ID compliant state, one needs to produce two proofs of residency within the state.
Rental agreement from the dorm. Tuition bill. Bank statement.
A bank statement won't help you if your bank account is at your parents' address rather than the address of your dorm. Likewise, a tuition bill would likely be sent to your home address, and depending on who's paying might not be sent to the student. I never saw a tuition bill since my parents paid them all.
As for front plates, I don't claim to have any expertise on how much benefit they provide. All I know is that they have always been required around here and seeing cars without one looks weird to me.
Quote from: Duke87 on March 24, 2015, 10:26:02 AM
Quote from: kkt on March 24, 2015, 12:27:20 AM
Quote from: vdeane on March 23, 2015, 10:02:17 PM
And how is the constitutional right going to stand up to Real ID? Now, in order to get or renew a license in a Read ID compliant state, one needs to produce two proofs of residency within the state.
Rental agreement from the dorm. Tuition bill. Bank statement.
A bank statement won't help you if your bank account is at your parents' address rather than the address of your dorm. Likewise, a tuition bill would likely be sent to your home address, and depending on who's paying might not be sent to the student. I never saw a tuition bill since my parents paid them all.
You can't live on the campus of a university without the university sending you a whole bunch of mail there. You might want to, but you can't.
Just from working on campus, I had a check stub with my dorm address. I also don't know who in the world would have a bank account at an address other than where they live. My folks lived almost 800 miles from where I went to school, I had to make sure the bank could contact me quickly if they needed to.
Those two things would've been enough for me to get a driver's license in the state I went to college in. If those won't work, my alma mater would also give you a letter that says that you do in fact live on campus. I used that when I registered to vote because I didn't yet have a bank account and hadn't started working.
Between all of those things, I had 3 different things that proved that I in fact actually resided in the state I attended college. Of course, since I didn't intend to stay in the state I attended college in or the state I attended grad school, there was no reason for me to change residency. Both were private and I had scholarships anyway so there was no financial reason to do it.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on March 24, 2015, 10:52:29 AM
Just from working on campus, I had a check stub with my dorm address. I also don't know who in the world would have a bank account at an address other than where they live. My folks lived almost 800 miles from where I went to school, I had to make sure the bank could contact me quickly if they needed to.
....
During my undergraduate years, I never changed the addresses on my bank accounts to any of my addresses in Charlottesville (three different addresses since I lived in three different places over four years). There was no benefit to doing so: As an in-state resident, I could just leave the account addresses at my home address in Fairfax and it caused no problems whatsoever for account access or any other purpose (and my parents could have referred the bank to me if needed). Indeed it was probably easier than changing the address each year. Local merchants didn't quibble about accepting a check with an address 120 miles away when it was from a student because the Honor Committee's Bad Check Committee was very good about ensuring students who bounced checks made payment (I never bounced one).
I did have to set up new accounts in North Carolina during law school even though I used the same bank. Interstate banking regulations were different in the mid-1990s from what they are now and making deposits across state lines was a lot more of a hassle except, for some reason, in the District of Columbia. But I had the same address all three years of law school so the other hassle of changing the address wasn't there
Quote from: kkt on March 24, 2015, 10:14:59 AM
Quote from: Brandon on March 24, 2015, 06:25:43 AM
Full of crap. Having a front license plate is an archaic practice that should be terminated by as many states as possible.
Why shouldn't you be able to identify a vehicle from either end?
Why do you need one? Michigan, Indiana, and other states seem to have no problem identifying vehicles without front plates.
Quote from: Brandon on March 24, 2015, 01:28:22 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 24, 2015, 10:14:59 AM
Quote from: Brandon on March 24, 2015, 06:25:43 AM
Full of crap. Having a front license plate is an archaic practice that should be terminated by as many states as possible.
Why shouldn't you be able to identify a vehicle from either end?
Why do you need one? Michigan, Indiana, and other states seem to have no problem identifying vehicles without front plates.
But why would you want to have 50% lower chances of seeing it. you have two plates, you just doubled your ability to get identified in a hit and run, or other such things. Convience store cameras for example would not be able to pick up the rear plate, but the front one is visible. if you're dumb enough to rob them and park right in front that is.
Cops love the front plate because it's a nice target for laser-based speed enforcement (sometimes called LIDAR). I find it mildly amusing how many people in "one-plate" states put reflective decorative plates on the front. I suppose if your car was already fitted with the bracket for the front plate it may be easier just to mount something there than to remove the bracket and plug the holes.
Don't forget that you don't live at college in the summer. You live at home. On a semester system, that's 1/3 of the year (when I was in college, I was home from the last week of April until the last week of August). If you go to college out of state, does that mean you're changing your licence twice a year?
In any case, I do all my business electronically. I get my bank statements online. I get my credit card statements online. I get my electric/internet bills, now that I have them, online. As such, I don't have paper copies of many of the documents that can be used as proof of residency in NY (http://dmv.ny.gov/forms/id44edl.pdf). Had I gone to college out of state, I couldn't have changed my car registration even if I wanted to: my parents didn't transfer the car to my name until after I graduated.
Incidentally, I never saw one tuition bill. My parents managed that. There was no rental agreement for dorms either - my college REQUIRED everyone to live on campus (yes, EVERYONE) unless they got a waiver, so everything was built in. The dorms didn't even have addresses - the only college address anyone ever had was a PO box.
As for the frontplate propaganda site... their arguments are bull. Any vehicle legally parked on the street would have the REAR plate facing traffic, not the front. Police and toll cameras on the road can read the rear plate just as easily as the front. As for LIDAR... doing such forms of speed enforcement are immoral. There is nothing unsafe about driving faster than some number a politician pulled out of their rear. Go after the reckless drivers instead, and you don't need things like LIDAR to find them. They're quite obvious.
Quote from: vdeane on March 24, 2015, 03:03:38 PM
Don't forget that you don't live at college in the summer. You live at home. On a semester system, that's 1/3 of the year (when I was in college, I was home from the last week of April until the last week of August). If you go to college out of state, does that mean you're changing your licence twice a year?
Not everyone goes home for the summer. Some get jobs in the college town, some go to some other place. If you consider the college your home, you don't have to be there all the time, just a majority of the year. Plenty of teachers, both K-12 and college, don't have their regular jobs for the summer and leave town too, they don't have to change their driver's licenses. Students have an equal right to vote in the place they consider to be home. Have your mail held or temporarily forwarded for the summer. It's not rocket surgery.
Quote
In any case, I do all my business electronically. I get my bank statements online. I get my credit card statements online. I get my electric/internet bills, now that I have them, online. As such, I don't have paper copies of many of the documents that can be used as proof of residency in NY (http://dmv.ny.gov/forms/id44edl.pdf). Had I gone to college out of state, I couldn't have changed my car registration even if I wanted to: my parents didn't transfer the car to my name until after I graduated.
It seems like you're making this harder than it needs to be. Residential lease can be one, any piece of postmarked mail can be another. Ta-da.
Quote
Incidentally, I never saw one tuition bill. My parents managed that. There was no rental agreement for dorms either - my college REQUIRED everyone to live on campus (yes, EVERYONE) unless they got a waiver, so everything was built in. The dorms didn't even have addresses - the only college address anyone ever had was a PO box.
I am amazed that the're no rental or lease agreement or other statement signed by both reps of the college and the student. If you felt that the college was your home, and really wanted to register to vote there, I bet they could have provided a letter or something. If not, use other ways of establishing residency.
Quote
As for the frontplate propaganda site... their arguments are bull. Any vehicle legally parked on the street would have the REAR plate facing traffic, not the front. Police and toll cameras on the road can read the rear plate just as easily as the front. As for LIDAR... doing such forms of speed enforcement are immoral. There is nothing unsafe about driving faster than some number a politician pulled out of their rear. Go after the reckless drivers instead, and you don't need things like LIDAR to find them. They're quite obvious.
Both front and rear plates show if the car is visible from traffic on both sides of the street. A hit and run driver is a lot more likely to be identified if there are two plates. You give up your right to anonymity when you drive.
Quote from: vdeane on March 24, 2015, 03:03:38 PM
.... Any vehicle legally parked on the street would have the REAR plate facing traffic, not the front. ....
For what it's worth, that isn't always the case, though in most cases you're correct. I am aware of places where there is on-street diagonal parking and you are required to back into the space, so in that case the rear plate is facing away from traffic. But for enforcement purposes that would only be an issue if the parking were up against a wall (such as the way some people back into spaces in underground parking garages). Most on-street parking doesn't face that issue.
Just in case it wasn't clear from my other comments, I see little need for two plates, but since not displaying the front plate is a good way to get a ticket around here I see no reason not to comply with the requirement that I have one (I do know people who refuse to mount the front plate and they invariably wind up getting ticketed).
The added benefit of front plates is limited because they are not required to be illuminated, and they can be a significant source of aerodynamic drag depending on the car model and plate mounting design.
Kentucky doesn't require front plates, but just about every vehicle I ever owned had a spot for one. I always kept some sort of personal expression plate on them (my name on an airbrushed plate, or a UK or Dale Earnhardt-themed plate). My Saturn Vue doesn't have the front plate holder. And that didn't stop PTC from sending me a violation notice when my E-ZPass didn't get read a few years ago because the camera got a photo of my rear plate, they looked up my registration, and sent me the notice.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 24, 2015, 08:58:17 PM
Kentucky doesn't require front plates, but just about every vehicle I ever owned had a spot for one. I always kept some sort of personal expression plate on them (my name on an airbrushed plate, or a UK or Dale Earnhardt-themed plate). My Saturn Vue doesn't have the front plate holder. And that didn't stop PTC from sending me a violation notice when my E-ZPass didn't get read a few years ago because the camera got a photo of my rear plate, they looked up my registration, and sent me the notice.
So was the violation notice only for not having a front plate?
Quote from: oscar on March 24, 2015, 09:11:42 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 24, 2015, 08:58:17 PM
Kentucky doesn't require front plates, but just about every vehicle I ever owned had a spot for one. I always kept some sort of personal expression plate on them (my name on an airbrushed plate, or a UK or Dale Earnhardt-themed plate). My Saturn Vue doesn't have the front plate holder. And that didn't stop PTC from sending me a violation notice when my E-ZPass didn't get read a few years ago because the camera got a photo of my rear plate, they looked up my registration, and sent me the notice.
So was the violation notice only for not having a front plate?
No, the E-ZPass didn't read and the violation was for supposedly using an E-ZPass lane without having an E-ZPass. All I had to do was send a copy of my statement (showing other transactions on the PTC system that day) and the violation was rescinded.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 25, 2015, 04:46:15 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 24, 2015, 09:11:42 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 24, 2015, 08:58:17 PM
Kentucky doesn't require front plates, but just about every vehicle I ever owned had a spot for one. I always kept some sort of personal expression plate on them (my name on an airbrushed plate, or a UK or Dale Earnhardt-themed plate). My Saturn Vue doesn't have the front plate holder. And that didn't stop PTC from sending me a violation notice when my E-ZPass didn't get read a few years ago because the camera got a photo of my rear plate, they looked up my registration, and sent me the notice.
So was the violation notice only for not having a front plate?
No, the E-ZPass didn't read and the violation was for supposedly using an E-ZPass lane without having an E-ZPass. All I had to do was send a copy of my statement (showing other transactions on the PTC system that day) and the violation was rescinded.
Odd. You'd think they'd already realize that from the other transactions on that plate from that day. Here, in Illinois, you see "V Toll" by that transaction without even getting so much as a letter if the system read the transponder at the other locations.
Quote from: Brandon on March 25, 2015, 05:01:45 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 25, 2015, 04:46:15 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 24, 2015, 09:11:42 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 24, 2015, 08:58:17 PM
Kentucky doesn't require front plates, but just about every vehicle I ever owned had a spot for one. I always kept some sort of personal expression plate on them (my name on an airbrushed plate, or a UK or Dale Earnhardt-themed plate). My Saturn Vue doesn't have the front plate holder. And that didn't stop PTC from sending me a violation notice when my E-ZPass didn't get read a few years ago because the camera got a photo of my rear plate, they looked up my registration, and sent me the notice.
So was the violation notice only for not having a front plate?
No, the E-ZPass didn't read and the violation was for supposedly using an E-ZPass lane without having an E-ZPass. All I had to do was send a copy of my statement (showing other transactions on the PTC system that day) and the violation was rescinded.
Odd. You'd think they'd already realize that from the other transactions on that plate from that day. Here, in Illinois, you see "V Toll" by that transaction without even getting so much as a letter if the system read the transponder at the other locations.
Lazy operator syndrome.
By chance the plate wasn't registered (I seriously doubt this option), or they couldn't look up registrations/tags from his state.
But I'll go with my first choice.
Quote from: oscar on March 17, 2015, 12:43:18 PMTammy Darvish was also a well-known female name among local car dealers, as an executive VP and front person for the local Darcars dealership network, but that went away after she sued her father over ownership of the company.
More on that:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/the-good-daughter-tammy-darvish-and-the-darcars-family-drama/2015/04/01/70bb0834-d158-11e4-a62f-ee745911a4ff_story.html