AARoads Forum

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-18/n-j-lawmakers-propose-bill-to-allow-voluntary-self-serve-gas

Not sure what to make of this. On the one hand, the law is terribly antiquated. On the other, it doesn't seem to add too much to the price of gas, and is very convenient during the winter. I don't see the full service requirement lasting very long if the law passes.

Until a year ago, I wasn't even aware that Oregon still does this as well.

http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2014/02/the_real_reason_self-service_gas_was_banned_in_nj_corruption_not_safety.html

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2015/05/16/new-jersey-self-service-gas-station-proposal/

Pretty Shocking that Full Service gas still exist. Wow I never heard of Gas Attendents before. But Thats Because I live in California and all the gas places I been to are Self-Service.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtju4jhpZZo

http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/05/new_jersey_and_oregon_are_fina.html

Update Oregon could be the last state in the country to have Full Service gas if New Jersey Law passes.

I mentioned similar in a related FB-post on this subject & will post here; contrary to popular belief, there are still some (mostly older) folks that either won't nor never learned how to pump their own gas... outside of New Jersey and Oregon.

My 78-year-old mother in Massachusetts, who's been driving since the early 1950s; has never used a self-serve pump in her entire life.  As a matter of fact, she will only go to stations that have full-serve (most stations have either or but not both).  When the Prime Energy station in Salem, MA (along Lafayette St./MA 1A & 114) converted to an all-self-serve station last year; she wound up going to another station (either Spiro's or Gibbs along MA 129 in Swampscott) instead.

I half-jokingly told her that she would either have to learn how to pump self-serve or move to New Jersey or Oregon.

Unlike the stations in MA, many in PA have both self-service and full-service pumps at the same station; though the latter is typically priced some 30 cents a gallon higher than the former.

Assuming that there's nothing nefarious hidden deep within the proposal, I certainly hope it passes–and that Oregon follows suit. Then fuel attendants can join the ranks of elevator operators and bathroom attendants–jobs that were eliminated because someone finally realized: We're adults, and we can press a button or grab a towel for ourselves.

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 18, 2015, 04:01:45 PM
Unlike the stations in MA, many in PA have both self-service and full-service pumps at the same station; though the latter is typically priced some 30 cents a gallon higher than the former.

As I recall growing up in central PA in the late '80s and early '90s, most stations were a mix of full and self serve (often one side of the island was full, and the other was self–or there were two separate islands), while a few stations (usually service stations with repair facilities) were strictly full serve, and a growing number of newer and larger stations were self serve only. In my hometown today, I can think of only two stations out of dozens in the area that will pump for you.

Likewise, it's nearly all self serve in California now, but I know of a few stations near me that have a mix of full and self serve gasoline, one of which is primarily a repair shop and has the some of the highest gasoline prices in the state.

Quote from: briantroutman on May 18, 2015, 04:30:15 PM
Assuming that there's nothing nefarious hidden deep within the proposal, I certainly hope it passes–and that Oregon follows suit. Then fuel attendants can join the ranks of elevator operators and bathroom attendants–jobs that were eliminated because someone finally realized: We're adults, and we can press a button or grab a towel for ourselves.

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 18, 2015, 04:01:45 PM
Unlike the stations in MA, many in PA have both self-service and full-service pumps at the same station; though the latter is typically priced some 30 cents a gallon higher than the former.

As I recall growing up in central PA in the late '80s and early '90s, most stations were a mix of full and self serve (often one side of the island was full, and the other was self–or there were two separate islands), while a few stations (usually service stations with repair facilities) were strictly full serve, and a growing number of newer and larger stations were self serve only. In my hometown today, I can think of only two stations out of dozens in the area that will pump for you.

Likewise, it's nearly all self serve in California now, but I know of a few stations near me that have a mix of full and self serve gasoline, one of which is primarily a repair shop and has the some of the highest gasoline prices in the state.

There used to be a Mobil in Northeast Philly somewhere which proclaimed in large letters: "We pump your gas. Same Price!" They had prices somewhere in between self serve and full serve of other stations in the area, 99 cents, back when I went that way. No idea if it's still there.

http://www.nacsonline.com/Magazine/PastIssues/2011/October2011/Pages/Feature8.aspx


Well the First known self service station is in Los Angeles in 1947.

Why would anyone want to go through the inconvience of getting out of their motorcar to pump gasoline into it?  I'd much rather just roll down my window and tell the attendant "Fill it with regular, please."

If you've ever seen the first gas station scene in Duel (the one before the truck starts harassing Dennis Weaver), you might decide that self service isn't a bad thing.

Quote from: roadman on May 18, 2015, 06:34:09 PM
If you've ever seen the first gas station scene in Duel (the one before the truck starts harassing Dennis Weaver), you might decide that self service isn't a bad thing.

Or the second gas station scene...because while Sally's filling your car with Ethyl, you can take a look at the cages of "rattlers"  and use the telephone.

Quote from: briantroutman on May 18, 2015, 06:53:28 PM

Or the second gas station scene...because while Sally's filling your car with Ethyl, you can take a look at the cages of "rattlers"  and use the telephone.

And we all know how well THAT worked out for Dennis Weaver.  Not to mention for Sally (My snakes!!!! My snakes!!!!).

Of course, with self-serve, you also don't have to waste time waiting for your gas while Gomer finishes his story about how he baits his lines with a little bit of cheese.

This is a solution searching for a problem.  Most people I know here in NJ are not jumping up and down waiting to pump their own gas here.  It occasionally gets brought up by politicians but nobody really cares.  By allowing self-serve:
1) Gas will not get cheaper. 
2) A lot of people will be out of work.

I don't want some douchebag spilling gas all over my car or even worse, scratching it. I would rather just pay at the pump and get in and get out.

Quote from: Roadrunner75 on May 18, 2015, 08:24:10 PM
This is a solution searching for a problem.  Most people I know here in NJ are not jumping up and down waiting to pump their own gas here.  It occasionally gets brought up by politicians but nobody really cares.  By allowing self-serve:
1) Gas will not get cheaper. 
2) A lot of people will be out of work.

Wow I never thought about this one in New Jersey. Its just that in most of the country the Gas Attendant seems to be mythical figure that shows up on old Texaco commercials in the 1950's for PR purposes. I never thought they ever existed in real life.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tTq17PcctZM

One thing I do like, at least in Oregon, is that if a busy gas station is fully staffed (which doesn't happen always), having the attendants there keeps the line moving- people are more loathe to park their car at the pump and go inside and take a shit, holding everybody else up.

My Mom didn't pump gas herself until 1997 or so. My Dad always did the refueling, and on the rare case my Mom had to buy gas she'd go to the full service station. When we moved to Idaho, she had to start because there wasn't even really a full service station nearby.

Honestly, at least in Montana/Idaho/Wyoming- I know of one full service gas station in any of these three states, at this point.* There happens to be one in Helena, still. Beyond that, I suspect there has to be at least one in Boise still, but as far as Wyoming and Montana go, I'd be surprised to hear that there is one. A lot of the gas stations in Alberta have an island with full service, but that's as much as I've seen nearby.

*The caveat being that I'm not actively looking for this type of gas station.

Quote from: 02 Park Ave on May 18, 2015, 06:28:47 PM
Why would anyone want to go through the inconvience of getting out of their motorcar to pump gasoline into it?

Because part of the price per gallon you're paying is going to pay that person to pump your gas. Eliminate that legally-mandated cost, and the price you pay for gas will go down. The stations around here that have full-service charge more than they do for their self-service pumps. If I stop at such a place, I always do self-serve to save some money. Why should I pay money for someone to do what I can do myself?

Quote from: 02 Park Ave on May 18, 2015, 06:28:47 PM
Why would anyone want to go through the inconvience of getting out of their motorcar to pump gasoline into it?  I'd much rather just roll down my window and tell the attendant "Fill it with regular, please."

I don't see it as an inconvenience at all. I'd rather contribute something to the process of fueling my car than just sit there twiddling my thumbs while someone else does it. But I suppose it's a question of personality. I need to constantly be doing something, I hate having to sit still while waiting for someone else.

Also, in the midst of a long trip it's nice to be able to get up and stretch your legs a bit. Full serve gas robs one of an opportunity to do this.

Quote from: Roadrunner75 on May 18, 2015, 08:24:10 PM
This is a solution searching for a problem.  Most people I know here in NJ are not jumping up and down waiting to pump their own gas here.  It occasionally gets brought up by politicians but nobody really cares.  By allowing self-serve:
1) Gas will not get cheaper. 
2) A lot of people will be out of work.

With regards to point number 2 - if a job is not actually necessary and only exists because regulation demands it, then it is not productive work and its continued existence does not actually benefit the economy. You might as well take all the people pumping gas in New Jersey and pay them to play solitaire all day, they'd accomplish just as much.

Besides, if the fact that it eliminates jobs is a reason to not do it, then why does NJ have EZpass? Why does NJ not ban self-checkouts at the supermarket? Or vending machines? Or ATMs? All of these things have automated plenty of jobs out of existence, why is full serve gas some special sacred cow that can't be touched?

48 states have figured out how to let everyone pump their own gas. There is not a single good reason for the other two to remain holdouts, it's all just local exceptionalism and social inertia.

Quote from: hbelkins on May 19, 2015, 12:18:14 AM
Because part of the price per gallon you're paying is going to pay that person to pump your gas. Eliminate that legally-mandated cost, and the price you pay for gas will go down. The stations around here that have full-service charge more than they do for their self-service pumps. If I stop at such a place, I always do self-serve to save some money. Why should I pay money for someone to do what I can do myself?

Of course.  Basic economics and business management.  In fact, in my area, the desire for cost savings has pushed 99% of the full-serve stations out of business.  I can really only think of two stations that even offer full-serve.  Both are located in ultra-rich neighborhood and charge confiscatory prices.  Their clientele are the rich white landlords, and more often, the rich white widowed landladies, of Charleston or Huntington.   

Quote from: Roadrunner75 on May 18, 2015, 08:24:10 PM
This is a solution searching for a problem.  Most people I know here in NJ are not jumping up and down waiting to pump their own gas here.  It occasionally gets brought up by politicians but nobody really cares.  By allowing self-serve:
1) Gas will not get cheaper. 
2) A lot of people will be out of work.

Agreed.  Notice that most of the cheering for this measure (here, at least) is not coming from folks from New Jersey.  I am very glad to have someone pump for me in the cold or rain.

There are more full-serve than self in my immediate area, most of them small independents, and they unquestionably make up the bulk of the lowest-priced stations!  Without any kind of mandate, the market manages to not find these vaunted savings from self-serve, but rather bears out just the opposite.

there have been countless times at busy gas stations where i've sat at a pump for several minutes waiting for an attendant, sometimes when i really need to be somewhere. i'd much prefer to have the option of doing it myself.

Somewhere in the past, I heard the argument that the attendants end up paying for themselves by greatly reducing the chances of a customer driving off without paying.  But if that's the case, wouldn't stations everywhere be more likely to offer or even require full service in their own economic interest? 

The full service stations I'm aware of locally either charge a few pennies more for optional full service or are entirely full service and advertise that fact on their signage.  It seems there's little if any difference in price.

When traveling in NJ, the only time it really bothers me is when I'm sitting there waiting for several minutes for someone to start pumping or to replace my gas cap when I'm perfectly capable.  I'm also a little uneasy at times handing my credit card over because some of the attendants leave the card half way in the reader the whole time the gas is pumping.  Not sure what the point of that would be - I don't need to swipe my card twice when I pay at the pump everywhere else.

Many New Jerseyians loudly say they want full serve to stay. Yet, NJ typically loses people to other states, whether it be moving away from the high taxes, relocation because of jobs, going to college out of state, etc.  Not once has anyone said they had to move back to Jersey because they couldn't deal with the pressures of pumping their own gas.   

Quote from: Roadrunner75 on May 18, 2015, 08:24:10 PM
This is a solution searching for a problem.  Most people I know here in NJ are not jumping up and down waiting to pump their own gas here.

There's quite a number that do.  But then again, I've never really seen people jump up and down for much of anything, unless they're protesting something.  And often times, they're protesting just because they want to.  They aren't even really involved, or they got the facts wrong (thanks giving-us-only-some-of-the-story Media).  Even better - look at the online petition websites...most people that sign them have nothing to do whatsoever with the issue.  Most of them are from out of state, sign with false names, etc.

Quote
It occasionally gets brought up by politicians but nobody really cares.  By allowing self-serve:
1) Gas will not get cheaper. 
2) A lot of people will be out of work.

1)  Gas prices fluctuate like the wind.  Prices go up 5 cents; prices go down 3 cents.  I could compare to neighboring states - sometimes our prices go up faster; sometimes they go up slower.  No one will ever really know if gas gets cheaper or not.

2) I get gas once or twice a week. It's extremely rare for me to see the same person at a gas station, ever.  The part time, gas pumping job has to be one of the most unhealthy jobs out there.  How many people really want to be standing around gas pumps, gas fumes, and jockeying cars all day long?  We're not talking about getting rid of a high-paying, life-long career job.  We're talking about minimum wage, many times off-the-books job.  And many of these people could wind up finding work inside the store or booth instead.  Most businesses need at least 2 people inside anyway - especially if the station offers a full-serve option.  Most full-serve gas stations employee at least two people outside.  The net result is almost no jobs lost.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 19, 2015, 08:40:02 AM
Agreed.  Notice that most of the cheering for this measure (here, at least) is not coming from folks from New Jersey.

We're also talking about an extremely small sample size of how many active posters from NJ?  Me, for one, would enjoy *legally* fueling my own vehicle. 

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 19, 2015, 09:27:21 AM
Many New Jerseyians loudly say they want full serve to stay. Yet, NJ typically loses people to other states, whether it be moving away from the high taxes, relocation because of jobs, going to college out of state, etc.  Not once has anyone said they had to move back to Jersey because they couldn't deal with the pressures of pumping their own gas.   

But they have said that whereever they moved to just wasn't as awesome as New Jersey, so they moved back.  :biggrin:

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 19, 2015, 09:27:21 AM
We're also talking about an extremely small sample size of how many active posters from NJ?  Me, for one, would enjoy *legally* fueling my own vehicle. 

I'm indifferent. I don't mind letting someone else fill my car up, because I'm just generally a lazy person anyway, so if it's steaming hot outside or thunderstorming or whatever, I'd much rather just stay in my own car and let them do it for me.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 19, 2015, 09:27:21 AM
1)  Gas prices fluctuate like the wind.  Prices go up 5 cents; prices go down 3 cents.  I could compare to neighboring states - sometimes our prices go up faster; sometimes they go up slower.  No one will ever really know if gas gets cheaper or not.

Agreed that it would be hard to tell if there are any savings due to the constant fluctuations.  Which also of course makes it much easier to not pass on any savings to the consumer by claiming other factors involved in the prices.  One thing we will not see is some dramatic drop in prices easily attributable to a shift to self-serve.  We will pay the same prices we would have paid beforehand, for less service.

Quote
2) I get gas once or twice a week. It's extremely rare for me to see the same person at a gas station, ever.  The part time, gas pumping job has to be one of the most unhealthy jobs out there.  How many people really want to be standing around gas pumps, gas fumes, and jockeying cars all day long?  We're not talking about getting rid of a high-paying, life-long career job.  We're talking about minimum wage, many times off-the-books job.  And many of these people could wind up finding work inside the store or booth instead.  Most businesses need at least 2 people inside anyway - especially if the station offers a full-serve option.  Most full-serve gas stations employee at least two people outside.  The net result is almost no jobs lost.

I still think we'll lose a lot of jobs - NJ.com estimated at least 10,000+ full time jobs in an article today, not counting part-time.  Is it necessarily a reason to maintain full-serve?  No, but we're still going to lose a lot of jobs, even if they're not very good jobs.

I never thought of full-serve as a problem, and it's mostly people I've met from out of state who complain about it.  I also don't find self-serve when I'm out of state really that much quicker than full-serve in NJ in general.  Of course you will find a busy station where they might take a little time to get to you, but usually it's not a problem.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 19, 2015, 09:27:21 AMNot once has anyone said they had to move back to Jersey because they couldn't deal with the pressures of pumping their own gas.

It is also safe to assume people are not leaving New Jersey for the freedom to pump gas.

Quote from: Roadrunner75 on May 19, 2015, 10:02:45 AM
I still think we'll lose a lot of jobs - NJ.com estimated at least 10,000+ full time jobs in an article today, not counting part-time.  Is it necessarily a reason to maintain full-serve?  No, but we're still going to lose a lot of jobs, even if they're not very good jobs.

By a very rough estimate, there's about 3,000 - 3,500 gas stations in NJ.  That would mean about 3 full time attendants per station.  I have a very hard time believing there's an average of 3 full time attendants per station.  I have a harder time believing that every single one of those attendants would be out of work.  Remember, NJ's current bill requires at least some full serve pumps at each gas station, so you can't get rid of every attendant.  And some of those attendants working outside, especially in small, individually owned station, would then be working inside in a booth. 

When people state there could be jobs lost, they rarely look at the jobs found.  Going back to the EZ Pass example - yes, toll booth attendants are less in demand.  But EZ Pass didn't create itself - there's a huge number of jobs in the technology, customer service, construction and maintenance positions dealing with EZ Pass.  It wouldn't be surprising if EZ Pass actually created a net increase in jobs. 

QuoteOf course you will find a busy station where they might take a little time to get to you, but usually it's not a problem.

You'll find many stories, including me, of stations with no one, and you're still looking around for the attendant who may be in the bathroom or roaming around on a cell phone.  And I believe NJ's current law requires attendants to be well trained in the dispensing of fuel, which would mean they should be following safety precautions such as not being on a cell phone.

Wawa actually violates the law in my opinion.  Again, full service is here in part because attendants can make sure the car is functioning properly, which includes checking oil, etc.  Yet Wawa has stickers that say their attendants are only trained in the dispensing of fuel, and can't do other maintenance-type work.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 19, 2015, 10:56:26 AM
Wawa actually violates the law in my opinion.  Again, full service is here in part because attendants can make sure the car is functioning properly, which includes checking oil, etc.  Yet Wawa has stickers that say their attendants are only trained in the dispensing of fuel, and can't do other maintenance-type work.

While oil checks, cleaning windshields, etc. are part of the traditional "full service" package, does the law require anything more than dispensing fuel?

IIRC, Oregon gas stations sometimes describe themselves as "mini-serve", to head off any expectations that the pump jockeys will do anything more than dispense fuel and collect payment.

Most NJ stations seem to be the same.  Of the times I've filled up there, I've only had them do anything other than pump gas once... and that was to clean the windshield at a Turnpike station that practically had a jockey for each pump that needed things to do.

Honestly, I prefer self-serve.  You don't have to wait on anyone else, and you don't worry about someone having the gas cap rest right on the car's paint.

There's actually a gas station with full service pumps right near my parents' house, though I wasn't aware of that fact until recently since I never go there.  Imagine my surprise when I pull in one winter to clean some gunk off my windshield that a truck splattered on it and there's a guy yelling at me.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 19, 2015, 08:40:02 AM
Agreed.  Notice that most of the cheering for this measure (here, at least) is not coming from folks from New Jersey.  I am very glad to have someone pump for me in the cold or rain.

The gas pumps in New Jersey don't have canopies over them?

If it's cold, I put a jacket on. 3 minutes in the cold isn't going to kill me.

Quote from: Jim on May 19, 2015, 08:53:14 AM
Somewhere in the past, I heard the argument that the attendants end up paying for themselves by greatly reducing the chances of a customer driving off without paying.  But if that's the case, wouldn't stations everywhere be more likely to offer or even require full service in their own economic interest? 

Pay at the pump and prepay eliminate the problem of drive offs. Back when I worked at a c-store, some customers (usually rich assholes driving German sedans) would come in when I was helping a customer and demand that I turn the pump on. It delighted me to no end to tell them that I couldn't do that and they would have to prepay.

Quote
When traveling in NJ, the only time it really bothers me is when I'm sitting there waiting for several minutes for someone to start pumping or to replace my gas cap when I'm perfectly capable.  I'm also a little uneasy at times handing my credit card over because some of the attendants leave the card half way in the reader the whole time the gas is pumping.  Not sure what the point of that would be - I don't need to swipe my card twice when I pay at the pump everywhere else.

I don't trust some pump jockey with my credit card. They could easily scribble down (or remember) the number and use it to pay for porn or whatever pump jockeys in New Jersey do.

If I ever visit New Jersey, I'll be sure I have a full tank before I even enter the state.

Reminds me of this, which has now become a new book:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/10/30/opinion/sunday/our-unpaid-extra-shadow-work.html?referrer=&_r=0

Our Unpaid, Extra Shadow Work
By CRAIG LAMBERT
OCTOBER 29, 2011

QuoteThe conventional wisdom is that America has become a "service economy,"  but actually, in many sectors, "service"  is disappearing. There was a time when a gas station attendant would routinely fill your tank and even check your oil and clean your windshield and rear window without charge, then settle your bill. Today, all those jobs have been transferred to the customer: we pump our own gas, squeegee our own windshield, and pay our own bill by swiping a credit card. Where customers once received service from the service station, they now provide "self-service"  – a synonym for "no service."  Technology enables this sleight of hand, which lets gas stations cut their payrolls, having co-opted their patrons into doing these jobs without pay.

Examples abound, helping drive unemployment rates. Airports now have self-service check-in kiosks that allow travelers to perform the jobs of ticket agents. Travel agents once unearthed, perused and compared fares, deals and hotel rates. Shadow-working travelers now do all of this themselves on their computer screens. Medical patients are now better informed than ever – as a result of hours of online shadow work. In 1998, the Internal Revenue Service estimated that taxpayers spent six billion hours per year on "tax compliance activities."  That's serious shadow work, the equivalent of three million full-time jobs.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 19, 2015, 10:28:39 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 19, 2015, 09:27:21 AMNot once has anyone said they had to move back to Jersey because they couldn't deal with the pressures of pumping their own gas.

It is also safe to assume people are not leaving New Jersey for the freedom to pump gas.

If I were in NJ close to the border, I'd go out of state to get gas just because I'm a contrarian and I'm stubborn enough to go out of my way just to prove a point to myself.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 19, 2015, 10:56:26 AM
When people state there could be jobs lost, they rarely look at the jobs found.  Going back to the EZ Pass example - yes, toll booth attendants are less in demand.  But EZ Pass didn't create itself - there's a huge number of jobs in the technology, customer service, construction and maintenance positions dealing with EZ Pass.  It wouldn't be surprising if EZ Pass actually created a net increase in jobs. 

There are going to be even more jobs when E-Z Pass has to upgrade their systems to passive RFID technology like most of the rest of the country's tolling systems.

Quote from: bugo on May 19, 2015, 12:02:21 PM

I don't trust some pump jockey with my credit card. They could easily scribble down (or remember) the number and use it to pay for porn or whatever pump jockeys in New Jersey do.

If I ever visit New Jersey, I'll be sure I have a full tank before I even enter the state.

Unless you're in a really bad area, the pump jockeys are usually just high-school kids trying to make a living. (Even then, the people who have jobs in bad areas usually aren't the troublemakers) Not once has my parent's card been used for purchases without their consent because a gas station attendant used it.

Quote from: bugo on May 19, 2015, 12:06:58 PM

Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 19, 2015, 10:28:39 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 19, 2015, 09:27:21 AMNot once has anyone said they had to move back to Jersey because they couldn't deal with the pressures of pumping their own gas.

It is also safe to assume people are not leaving New Jersey for the freedom to pump gas.

If I were in NJ close to the border, I'd go out of state to get gas just because I'm a contrarian and I'm stubborn enough to go out of my way just to prove a point to myself.

You'd pay substantially more in New York, the only state with a border one can easily duck across for gas from New Jersey.  When I lived near this line I routinely saw 50-60¢/gal. differences.  The point you would be making most clearly might be about your judgement.

It should be noted in this discussion that New Jersey's gas is today among the cheapest in the Northeast.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 19, 2015, 12:23:14 PM
It should be noted in this discussion that New Jersey's gas is today among the cheapest in the Northeast.

Why else would Pennsylvanians and New Yorkers who live close to New Jersey constantly come here for gas?  ;-)

Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 19, 2015, 12:23:14 PM
It should be noted in this discussion that New Jersey's gas is today among the cheapest in the Northeast.

Because its gasoline tax is less than half of either the two states it's sandwiched between. Which has absolutely nothing to do with its antiquated laws requiring full service.

One thing I never thought about is that here in NJ there seems to be a big difference between cash and credit prices for gas (up to 5%). I bet the difference does not go away if self serve is allowed (I don't know how much of difference if any the attenedants get to keep. Logically they spend more time counting your cash, giving change, etc). You can't pay cash at the pump. I know many people (including myself) who only ever pay cash now. I wonder how many switch to credit because of the inconvenience.

Quote from: oscar on May 19, 2015, 11:10:36 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 19, 2015, 10:56:26 AM
Wawa actually violates the law in my opinion.  Again, full service is here in part because attendants can make sure the car is functioning properly, which includes checking oil, etc.  Yet Wawa has stickers that say their attendants are only trained in the dispensing of fuel, and can't do other maintenance-type work.

While oil checks, cleaning windshields, etc. are part of the traditional "full service" package, does the law require anything more than dispensing fuel?

IIRC, Oregon gas stations sometimes describe themselves as "mini-serve", to head off any expectations that the pump jockeys will do anything more than dispense fuel and collect payment.

Is there a law per se, explicitly stating that someone must check oil, wash windows, etc (or do it upon demand of the customer)?  It doesn't appear there is.  However, written within the statutes is this:

34:3A-4.     Findings, declarations     

     The Legislature finds and declares that...

     " h.   Even in filling stations which offer both self-service and full-service gasoline, customers are less likely, because of the much higher price usually charged for full service, to have attendants make needed maintenance checks, thus causing significant neglect of maintenance and danger both to the customers and to other motorists, as well as the unneeded costly repairs which often result from deferred maintenance;"

So the law certainly implies the benefits of maintaining full service.  If there's no one available to check the oil upon demand, then the intent of the full service law isn't being met, even though there's no penalty involved.

I'm going to present all of 34:3A-4 here, only because some of the 'findings' are laughable at best:

QuoteThe Legislature finds and declares that:

    a.   Because of the fire hazards directly associated with dispensing fuel, it is in the public interest that gasoline station operators have the control needed over that activity to ensure compliance with appropriate safety procedures, including turning off vehicle engines and refraining from smoking while fuel is dispensed; 

    b.   At self-service gasoline stations in other states, cashiers are often unable to maintain a clear view of the activities of customers dispensing gasoline, or to give their undivided attention to observing customers; therefore, when customers, rather than attendants, are permitted to dispense fuel, it is far more difficult to enforce compliance with safety procedures; 

    c.   The State needs stronger measures to enforce both compliance by customers with the ban on self-service and compliance by attendants with safety procedures;

    d.   The higher general liability insurance premium rates charged to self-service stations reflect the fact that customers who leave their vehicles to dispense gasoline or other inflammable liquids face significant inconveniences and dangers, including the risks of crime and fall-related personal injury, which are a special burden to drivers with physical infirmities, such as the handicapped and some senior citizens; 

    e.   Exposure to toxic gasoline fumes represents a health hazard when customers dispense their own gasoline, particularly in the case of pregnant women;

    f.   The significantly higher prices usually charged for full-service gasoline in states where self-service is permitted results in discrimination against low income individuals, who are under greater economic pressure to undergo the inconvenience and hazards of dispensing their own gasoline; 

    g.   The increasing use of self-service has contributed to the diminished availability of repair facilities and maintenance services at gasoline stations;

    h.   Even in filling stations which offer both self-service and full-service gasoline, customers are less likely, because of the much higher price usually charged for full service, to have attendants make needed maintenance checks, thus causing significant neglect of maintenance and danger both to the customers and to other motorists, as well as the unneeded costly repairs which often result from deferred maintenance; 

    i.   The prohibition of customer self-service does not constitute a restraint of trade in derogation of the general public interest because the Legislature finds no conclusive evidence that self-service gasoline provides a sustained reduction in gasoline prices charged to customers; and 

    j.   A prohibition of self-service gasoline will therefore promote the common welfare by providing increased safety and convenience without causing economic harm to the public in general.

Quote from: bzakharin on May 19, 2015, 12:50:09 PM
One thing I never thought about is that here in NJ there seems to be a big difference between cash and credit prices for gas (up to 5%). I bet the difference does not go away if self serve is allowed (I don't know how much of difference if any the attenedants get to keep. Logically they spend more time counting your cash, giving change, etc). You can't pay cash at the pump. I know many people (including myself) who only ever pay cash now. I wonder how many switch to credit because of the inconvenience.

I've seen about 10 cents different at most (which is close to the 5% you mentioned).  The reasoning is for the fees incurred by the credit card companies at gas stations, and none of it would go to the attendants.  Again, it has nothing to do with full/self service. 

NJ requires gas stations to display both the cash and credit price if the cash price is displayed.  (Florida for example allows the cash price to be posted, with a tiny sign stating credit price may be higher.)  So if a patron wants to pay with credit and doesn't want to pay a higher price, they are free to find a gas station with same price cash/credit.

Technically, it's a cash discount, not a penalty for using a credit card.  Although in my observations, the cash price is the same as the nearby cash/credit same price stations, and the credit price is 10 cents or so higher.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 19, 2015, 10:28:39 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 19, 2015, 09:27:21 AMNot once has anyone said they had to move back to Jersey because they couldn't deal with the pressures of pumping their own gas.

It is also safe to assume people are not leaving New Jersey for the freedom to pump gas.

It is more fair to assume that we're not because not only is the gas more expensive on the other side, we'll also have to pay a toll just to get out. :)

How many fires are caused per year due to improper pumping of gas? It can't be that many, and the ones that do happen have to be because of some idiot smoking while he's pumping.

 
Dang Gas Station attendants are Targets in Long Island. But not shocking.

Correction made.

Quote from: bugo on May 19, 2015, 01:27:14 PM
How many fires are caused per year due to improper pumping of gas? It can't be that many, and the ones that do happen have to be because of some idiot smoking while he's pumping.

Fires during fueling usually happen for the following reasons:

1. Smoking during fueling.
2. Leaving the gasoline engine running during fueling (note, does not apply to diesel engines).
3. Reentering the vehicle during fueling and not grounding oneself prior to touching the fuel hose.
4. Filling a portable container of gasoline on the bed of a truck or in a trunk instead of on the ground.

1 is just plain stupid around any volatile substance such as gasoline.  Smoking around turpentine can give similar results.
2 can cause a fire due to the sparks in a gasoline engine.  Note that diesel engines use compression, not sparks, and can be left running while fueling.
3 is due to the static buildup and later discharge causing a spark.
4 is an observation I myself have seen complete morons do.  Jerrycans need to be grounded in fill properly.

Note, cell phones have never caused a fire or an explosion at a gasoline filling station.  They may cause distraction, but they cannot cause a fire or explosion.

Quote from: TXtoNJ on May 18, 2015, 12:36:19 PM
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-18/n-j-lawmakers-propose-bill-to-allow-voluntary-self-serve-gas

Not sure what to make of this. On the one hand, the law is terribly antiquated. On the other, it doesn't seem to add too much to the price of gas, and is very convenient during the winter. I don't see the full service requirement lasting very long if the law passes.

The average person doesn't know enough about gas safety to be pumping gas.  More power to NJ!

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 19, 2015, 01:02:41 PM
I've seen about 10 cents different at most (which is close to the 5% you mentioned).  The reasoning is for the fees incurred by the credit card companies at gas stations, and none of it would go to the attendants.  Again, it has nothing to do with full/self service. 

In which case the difference is unlikely to go away if self service is allowed

Quote
if a patron wants to pay with credit and doesn't want to pay a higher price, they are free to find a gas station with same price cash/credit.

Quote
Although in my observations, the cash price is the same as the nearby cash/credit same price stations, and the credit price is 10 cents or so higher.

First, there isn't always a nearby station that charges same price. Second, while prices at same price stations are usualy slightly lower than nearby credit card prices, they are almost always higher than the cash prices

Quote from: texaskdog on May 19, 2015, 03:11:00 PM

Quote from: TXtoNJ on May 18, 2015, 12:36:19 PM
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-18/n-j-lawmakers-propose-bill-to-allow-voluntary-self-serve-gas (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-18/n-j-lawmakers-propose-bill-to-allow-voluntary-self-serve-gas)

Not sure what to make of this. On the one hand, the law is terribly antiquated. On the other, it doesn't seem to add too much to the price of gas, and is very convenient during the winter. I don't see the full service requirement lasting very long if the law passes.

The average person doesn't know enough about gas safety to be pumping gas.  More power to NJ!

:clap: What California has been doing Self Service gas for 68 years and normal. The First Self Service gas open in 1947 in Los Angeles. I'm Shocked at this.

Quote from: bing101 on May 19, 2015, 02:51:31 PM
Dang Gas Station attendants are Targets in New Jersey. But not shocking.

Except it happened on Long Island.

Quote from: NJRoadfan on May 19, 2015, 03:20:09 PM

Quote from: bing101 on May 19, 2015, 02:51:31 PM
Dang Gas Station attendants are Targets in New Jersey. But not shocking.

Except it happened on Long Island.

Not to mention most acts of violence are because the people involved know each other in some way...

Quote from: Zeffy on May 19, 2015, 03:25:24 PM

Quote from: NJRoadfan on May 19, 2015, 03:20:09 PM

Quote from: bing101 on May 19, 2015, 02:51:31 PM
Dang Gas Station attendants are Targets in New Jersey. But not shocking.

Except it happened on Long Island.

Not to mention most acts of violence are because the people involved know each other in some way...

Given that it's a gas station/convenience store, my first assumption would've been armed robbery.

Quote from: Jim on May 19, 2015, 08:53:14 AM
Somewhere in the past, I heard the argument that the attendants end up paying for themselves by greatly reducing the chances of a customer driving off without paying.

I know of very few remaining places that don't require you to prepay for your gas if you're not paying at the pump with a credit card.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 19, 2015, 10:56:26 AMYet Wawa has stickers that say their attendants are only trained in the dispensing of fuel...

If you have to have training to pump gas, then our society is more doomed than I thought.

Quote from: bugo on May 19, 2015, 12:02:21 PM
If I ever visit New Jersey, I'll be sure I have a full tank before I even enter the state.

I've never bought gas in New Jersey the times I've been there since discovering firsthand in 1991 that they don't allow you to pump your gas yourself, for the exact same reason. It's a stupid law and in this instance, I don't mind paying more elsewhere to avoid subsidizing that stupidity.

Quote from: bzakharin on May 19, 2015, 03:15:05 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 19, 2015, 01:02:41 PM
I've seen about 10 cents different at most (which is close to the 5% you mentioned).  The reasoning is for the fees incurred by the credit card companies at gas stations, and none of it would go to the attendants.  Again, it has nothing to do with full/self service. 

In which case the difference is unlikely to go away if self service is allowed

Again - it has absolutely nothing to do with full/self serve.  It has to do with credit card fees incurred by the business.  Why would it go away?

Quote from: bugo on May 19, 2015, 01:27:14 PM
How many fires are caused per year due to improper pumping of gas? It can't be that many, and the ones that do happen have to be because of some idiot smoking while he's pumping.

I would think that gas station fires, especially significant ones, would make the news.  Or we would pass burned out gas stations.  Or GSV would have some burned out gas stations on their shots.  If you could find one or two I would be amazed.  There's more kitchen fires at restaurants caused by professional cooks then amateur car gas tank fillers.

Quote from: NJRoadfan on May 19, 2015, 03:20:09 PM

Quote from: bing101 on May 19, 2015, 02:51:31 PM
Dang Gas Station attendants are Targets in New Jersey. But not shocking.

Except it happened on Long Island.

Correction made thanks.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gM5A8tWc5ZE

The gas attendant looks like the litter removal person at Caltrans with an orange vest. But its a gas attendant talking about gas prices and the job.

Quote from: hbelkins on May 19, 2015, 05:28:39 PM

Quote from: bugo on May 19, 2015, 12:02:21 PM
If I ever visit New Jersey, I'll be sure I have a full tank before I even enter the state.

I've never bought gas in New Jersey the times I've been there since discovering firsthand in 1991 that they don't allow you to pump your gas yourself, for the exact same reason. It's a stupid law and in this instance, I don't mind paying more elsewhere to avoid subsidizing that stupidity.

You're so vastly outnumbered by the folks pouring in from outside to buy gas that your withholding of subsidy, as you call it, makes no meaningful difference.

It cracks me up how people complain all over society about the disappearance of customer service, yet in this one case people are desperate to make it go away even faster.  This is a truly curmudgeonly crowd.

Quote from: bugo on May 19, 2015, 12:02:21 PM

Quote from: Jim on May 19, 2015, 08:53:14 AM
Somewhere in the past, I heard the argument that the attendants end up paying for themselves by greatly reducing the chances of a customer driving off without paying.  But if that's the case, wouldn't stations everywhere be more likely to offer or even require full service in their own economic interest? 

Pay at the pump and prepay eliminate the problem of drive offs. Back when I worked at a c-store, some customers (usually rich assholes driving German sedans) would come in when I was helping a customer and demand that I turn the pump on. It delighted me to no end to tell them that I couldn't do that and they would have to prepay.

Quote
When traveling in NJ, the only time it really bothers me is when I'm sitting there waiting for several minutes for someone to start pumping or to replace my gas cap when I'm perfectly capable.  I'm also a little uneasy at times handing my credit card over because some of the attendants leave the card half way in the reader the whole time the gas is pumping.  Not sure what the point of that would be - I don't need to swipe my card twice when I pay at the pump everywhere else.

I don't trust some pump jockey with my credit card. They could easily scribble down (or remember) the number and use it to pay for porn or whatever pump jockeys in New Jersey do.

If I ever visit New Jersey, I'll be sure I have a full tank before I even enter the state.

You do know that in most cases, the card never leaves your sight.  Or you can get out and swipe it yourself.  In nearly any other state, the pumps are left unattended, and a frequent problem is the criminals will install those card skimmers on those unattended card swipes.

In fact, I would absolutely LOL if someone refuses to get their gas in NJ because of the credit card issue, and have their card compromised anyway because of a card skimmer in another state.

With all the Full-Serve stations in NJ and in Oregon, are there some in either state nowadays who use gimmicks like having an all-female staff (like some did in the 60's and 70s) to bring in the business? 

I can still remember as a kid on a family vacation in Florida in the early 70s seeing a Full-Service gas station with girls on roller skates pumping gas and cleaning windshields.

Looks like senate president Steve Sweeney put the kibosh on any full serve repeal bill. One thing that would have to go if the state was self serve is the stupid cash/credit split pricing. Full serve actually encourages paying with cash as the transaction is tendered at the pump. No need to go into the store to prepay (most stations here aren't setup for it anyway) or running back in to get a refund if you overpay.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 19, 2015, 12:55:18 PM
So the law certainly implies the benefits of maintaining full service.  If there's no one available to check the oil upon demand, then the intent of the full service law isn't being met, even though there's no penalty involved.

Does anyone ever actually check their oil the old fashioned way using the dipstick? It's been a few years since I've done so. The OBD system in my car will turn a warning light on if the oil level drops too low. The dipstick is at this point largely an unnecessary antique... although I can certainly appreciate having a means of checking such things manually in the event that the diagnostic computer fails to do so properly.

Quote from: Duke87 on May 20, 2015, 12:09:09 AM
Does anyone ever actually check their oil the old fashioned way using the dipstick? It's been a few years since I've done so. The OBD system in my car will turn a warning light on if the oil level drops too low. The dipstick is at this point largely an unnecessary antique... although I can certainly appreciate having a means of checking such things manually in the event that the diagnostic computer fails to do so properly.

Without exception, I check the engine oil level (and all other fluids with a sight glass or expansion tank) each time I refuel. That includes a recent trip from CA to PA and back on I-80 in which I checked the levels over twenty times in two weeks. And I maintain this regimen even though not one of the levels has ever been low.

I think it's better to check and be sure, know your vehicle and keep an eye on long-term trends, rather than react to problems when they demand your attention.

Quote from: NJRoadfan on May 19, 2015, 10:21:03 PM
Looks like senate president Steve Sweeney put the kibosh on any full serve repeal bill. One thing that would have to go if the state was self serve is the stupid cash/credit split pricing. Full serve actually encourages paying with cash as the transaction is tendered at the pump. No need to go into the store to prepay (most stations here aren't setup for it anyway) or running back in to get a refund if you overpay.

There's definitely split cash/credit pricing in self-serve states- I don't see why that would have to go away, though I agree that it is stupid and should go away. There's three buttons on the pump: "Pay outside credit" "Pay inside credit" and "Pay inside cash," and that determines the rate. I have no idea what happens if you push "pay inside cash" and then go inside to pay with a credit card.

Incidentally, very few stations in Montana require you to prepay if using cash, so it always throws me when I am reminded that that's a thing in most places now.   

Quote from: briantroutman on May 20, 2015, 12:37:18 AM

Quote from: Duke87 on May 20, 2015, 12:09:09 AM
Does anyone ever actually check their oil the old fashioned way using the dipstick? It's been a few years since I've done so. The OBD system in my car will turn a warning light on if the oil level drops too low. The dipstick is at this point largely an unnecessary antique... although I can certainly appreciate having a means of checking such things manually in the event that the diagnostic computer fails to do so properly.

Without exception, I check the engine oil level (and all other fluids with a sight glass or expansion tank) each time I refuel. That includes a recent trip from CA to PA and back on I-80 in which I checked the levels over twenty times in two weeks. And I maintain this regimen even though not one of the levels has ever been low.

I think it’s better to check and be sure, know your vehicle and keep an eye on long-term trends, rather than react to problems when they demand your attention.

I don't trust my OBD light. On my new VW Golf, the engine supposedly can go 10,000 miles between oil changes with full synthetics. While that change regimen will likely keep the engine running for the life of the powertrain warranty, I'd like to put multiple hundreds of thousands of miles on this car (it's a stick and I am suspicious about the ability to actually purchase a car with a stick in 2030 or whenever I replace it, which entices me to keep it on the road as long as possible) and need to keep the engine in tip-top shape, so it's getting changed every 5,000 with full synthetic.

I don't check my fluids every time I refuel, but do check once a month or so. It's good to keep an eye on things.

Quote from: corco on May 20, 2015, 12:50:55 AM

Quote from: NJRoadfan on May 19, 2015, 10:21:03 PM
Looks like senate president Steve Sweeney put the kibosh on any full serve repeal bill. One thing that would have to go if the state was self serve is the stupid cash/credit split pricing. Full serve actually encourages paying with cash as the transaction is tendered at the pump. No need to go into the store to prepay (most stations here aren't setup for it anyway) or running back in to get a refund if you overpay.

There's definitely split cash/credit pricing in self-serve states- I don't see why that would have to go away, though I agree that it is stupid and should go away. There's three buttons on the pump: "Pay outside credit" "Pay inside credit" and "Pay inside cash," and that determines the rate. I have no idea what happens if you push "pay inside cash" and then go inside to pay with a credit card.

Incidentally, very few stations in Montana require you to prepay if using cash, so it always throws me when I am reminded that that's a thing in most places now.   

Quote from: briantroutman on May 20, 2015, 12:37:18 AM

Quote from: Duke87 on May 20, 2015, 12:09:09 AM
Does anyone ever actually check their oil the old fashioned way using the dipstick? It's been a few years since I've done so. The OBD system in my car will turn a warning light on if the oil level drops too low. The dipstick is at this point largely an unnecessary antique... although I can certainly appreciate having a means of checking such things manually in the event that the diagnostic computer fails to do so properly.

Without exception, I check the engine oil level (and all other fluids with a sight glass or expansion tank) each time I refuel. That includes a recent trip from CA to PA and back on I-80 in which I checked the levels over twenty times in two weeks. And I maintain this regimen even though not one of the levels has ever been low.

I think it's better to check and be sure, know your vehicle and keep an eye on long-term trends, rather than react to problems when they demand your attention.

I don't trust my OBD light. On my new VW Golf, the engine supposedly can go 10,000 miles between oil changes with full synthetics. While that change regimen will likely keep the engine running for the life of the powertrain warranty, I'd like to put multiple hundreds of thousands of miles on this car (it's a stick and I am suspicious about the ability to actually purchase a car with a stick in 2030 or whenever I replace it, which entices me to keep it on the road as long as possible) and need to keep the engine in tip-top shape, so it's getting changed every 5,000 with full synthetic.

I don't check my fluids every time I refuel, but do check once a month or so. It's good to keep an eye on things.

5000 with full synthetic is a waste, 8500 is reasonable. I do 5,000 with conventional oil with no problems. Modern engines are cleaner burning than what was built even 25 years ago plus modern oils have a lot more detergents in them to keep the engine running fine.

Quote from: NJRoadfan on May 19, 2015, 10:21:03 PM
Looks like senate president Steve Sweeney put the kibosh on any full serve repeal bill. One thing that would have to go if the state was self serve is the stupid cash/credit split pricing.

IIRC, not all stations in NJ have split pricing.  The stations (mostly Sunoco) along the Turnpike, Parkway and AC Expressway have the same price for both cash & credit.  Off the toll roads, the Quick Chek stores that have gas stations feature same price cash/credit.

Some smaller, independent all self-serve stations in MA have split cash/credit pricing.  Heck, many supermarket gas stations that offer discounts for those that collect bonus points while shopping (Giant, Stop-and-Shop and Kroger being 3 examples) offer such split pricing (discounted price vs. regular price) as well.

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 20, 2015, 07:49:47 AM

Quote from: NJRoadfan on May 19, 2015, 10:21:03 PM
Looks like senate president Steve Sweeney put the kibosh on any full serve repeal bill. One thing that would have to go if the state was self serve is the stupid cash/credit split pricing.

IIRC, not all stations in NJ have split pricing.  The stations (mostly Sunoco) along the Turnpike, Parkway and AC Expressway have the same price for both cash & credit.  Off the toll roads, the Quick Chek stores that have gas stations feature same price cash/credit.

Some smaller, independent all self-serve stations in MA have split cash/credit pricing.  Heck, many supermarket gas stations that offer discounts for those that collect bonus points while shopping (Giant, Stop-and-Shop and Kroger being 3 examples) offer such split pricing (discounted price vs. regular price) as well.

No Wawas have split pricing.  It's up to each individual station owner whether they charge same cash/credit or different.  The only requirement is that the cash/credit price has to be clearly posted.

It is a safety issue.   One is allowed to pump Diesel fuel into one's vehicle.

Quote from: hbelkins on May 19, 2015, 05:22:43 PM

Quote from: Jim on May 19, 2015, 08:53:14 AM
Somewhere in the past, I heard the argument that the attendants end up paying for themselves by greatly reducing the chances of a customer driving off without paying.

I know of very few remaining places that don't require you to prepay for your gas if you're not paying at the pump with a credit card.

My dad worked full serve in the late 70s.  They usually had several pumps going and they had as many drive offs as we did when I worked for a self serve station 2000-2005.

Steve Sweeney's comment (http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/05/self-serve_gas_not_happening_nj_senate_president_s.html) how he won't even give the bill an up or down vote shows how stuck up he is as a legislator. An issue like this seems like a perfect thing to put to a public referendum rather than other issues that have been proposed in the past or actual questions put to a vote.

Quote from: Mr. Matté on May 20, 2015, 12:19:15 PM
Steve Sweeney's comment (http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/05/self-serve_gas_not_happening_nj_senate_president_s.html) how he won't even give the bill an up or down vote shows how stuck up he is as a legislator. An issue like this seems like a perfect thing to put to a public referendum rather than other issues that have been proposed in the past or actual questions put to a vote.

Public referendums are costly and aren't legally binding, unless it's a constitutional amendment.  There's already numerous polls out there that tell us how people are feeling regarding numerous topics.

That said, there should never be a single politician that can uphold a vote for anything.  Even when the governor vetos it, it can bounce back for an override (although that is very rare).

Of all the issues in New Jersey, it's amazing how strongly people feel about full/self service gas. 

Quote from: Mr. Matté on May 20, 2015, 12:19:15 PM
An issue like this seems like a perfect thing to put to a public referendum rather than other issues that have been proposed in the past or actual questions put to a vote. (http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/05/self-serve_gas_not_happening_nj_senate_president_s.html)

I don't agree.  New Jersey has real problems, and this is not one.  The expenditure of lots of energy on a non-binding referendum (New Jersey does not have direct democracy, only representative) would only be a victory for politicians happy to see voters distracting themselves from actual serious issues.   

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 20, 2015, 12:31:45 PM
Of all the issues in New Jersey, it's amazing how strongly people feel about full/self service gas.

At this point, it's not about the merits of the issue. A significant number of New Jerseyans have decided that universal, government-mandated full service gasoline is part of what makes New Jersey, New Jersey. It has become every but as much of the fabric of the state's culture as Taylor Ham and Frankie Valli.

Goddamnit, here we go again with the Taylor Ham.  Can there please be a day that goes by on which I am not driven to salivate over its elusive salty goodness?

WTF is Taylor Ham?

Quote from: briantroutman on May 20, 2015, 01:36:57 PM
...as much of the fabric of the state's culture as Taylor Ham and Frankie Valli.

This may be why my folks moved from New Jersey shortly after I was born.

Quote from: Brandon on May 20, 2015, 02:02:34 PM
WTF is Taylor Ham?

You're not from Jersey.  You're not allowed to know.

I guess we shouldn't bring up Scrapple then either...

give me pork roll or give me death, and let me pump my own damn gas when i want to.

Quote from: Brandon on May 20, 2015, 02:02:34 PM
WTF is Taylor Ham?

It is a Trenton-made pork sausage with a salty, peppery seasoning to it that is sliced and fried and eaten primarily in a breakfast sandwich with egg on a kaiser roll.  It looks like something between ham and bologna.  It seems to be commonly called Taylor Ham up north and pork roll down south (the John Taylor company markets a two products, one with each of those names), but it is regardless the unofficial state deli meat.  It is as New Jersey as the Texas Wiener.

Quote from: Brandon on May 20, 2015, 02:02:34 PM
WTF is Taylor Ham?

It is an acquired taste.  It is not really "ham", although some New Jersians use "Taylor Ham" as a genercised trademark (like band-aid or xerox) for what is legally called "pork roll".   It is made from the same mystery meat parts of the pig  which yeild  Spam or Treet and such.   Mostly eaten in a manner similar to fried bologna.

You don't see it outside New Jersey and nearby Pennsylvania too much, except in places NJians have migrated (you can get it in Morganhole, WV, where WVU, which has more NJians than most colleges in NJ is located; and I have seen it in south Florida too) . 

For me, I will pass. 

Pork roll is widely available in Pennsylvania, too–at least of the Budway. I've heard it's available in most of the tri-state (NJ, NY, CT) area as well.

I grew up listening to Bruce Williams (a native New Jerseyan if ever there was one) on the radio, and some years ago, he started up a side business selling pork roll online–primarily to NJ expats who can't find it locally. If you want to try it: http://www.jerseyboyporkroll.com/

Unfortunately, I haven't had it in about a decade–after I first gave up pork and later went full-on vegetarian.

Quote from: Brandon on May 20, 2015, 02:02:34 PM
WTF is Taylor Ham?

Trenton's gift to the world state.

I don't really know what the big deal is about self-serving your own gas. New Jersey is different.

What is wrong with letting NJ keep this little quirk of life? It keeps NJ from being just another state when you drive through it, it is a reminder that hey, you're in another state, and the rules here are different.

What is more of an issue is those who boycot New Jersey service stations all over this silly law.  Yes it is silly, but I will not go far to not get gas if I am there.   

Yes, NJ should move on like the rest of us have, but not enough to lose sleep over.

Wegman's carries it at their stores outside the usual Taylor Ham market.  I'm not sure who is buying it, other than tri-state ex-pats. The Wegman's here are kind of far afield, with typical Wegman's high prices, so I don't satisfy my Taylor Ham cravings very often.

Quote from: SteveG1988 on May 20, 2015, 06:39:30 AM
5000 with full synthetic is a waste, 8500 is reasonable. I do 5,000 with conventional oil with no problems. Modern engines are cleaner burning than what was built even 25 years ago plus modern oils have a lot more detergents in them to keep the engine running fine.

Actually 5000 mile change intervals are perfectly fine with VWs running TSI engines. That motor is pretty brutal on oil going by oil quality tests. I have owned 3 cars with various generations of the VW 2.0TSI/TFSI. That and they liked to burn oil, but they seem to have finally fixed that problem.

As for porkroll, I have seen it in Lowe's Supermarkets and BJ's in NC and in Publix in the Tampa Bay area.

Quote from: Duke87 on May 20, 2015, 12:09:09 AM
Does anyone ever actually check their oil the old fashioned way using the dipstick?

Yes, because while all vehicles I've owned have a low oil pressure light, I've never (to my knowledge) owned a vehicle that would tell you if the oil level was low. Took my Saturn Vue,  which is a male, because it has a DIC,* in for an oil change once and was told (and shown) that there was no oil on the dipstick. So now I check it on a semi-regular basis and add oil if needed.

Funny that the vehicle will tell me if my tires are too low, which is something I can eyeball for myself without any trouble, but it won't tell me if my oil level is low. Low air pressure will most likely lead to nothing more serious than a flat tire, while low engine oil levels can lead to a catastrophic engine failure.

*Driver Information Center

I had forgotten that NJ's referenda (referendums?) are non-binding except for Constitutional amendments. But still, I hate the fact that he's not even going to allow for a vote on the bill. I'd sorta understand if it was the other way around where Sweeney is strongly in favor of it but he doesn't post it to avoid the embarrassment of it being voted down, but if he thinks that it's a bad idea for the state, let them vote it down and have the representatives of the people show that it's bad.

We now continue with the satellite /r/newjersey forum's Taylor Ham vs. Pork Roll discussion already in progress.

Wait I read the New Jersey Law about this and supposed New Jersey has a standard for portable Gas Tanks. Wait I thought California makes the standards for Cars such as smog, and auto Safety, and gas tanks.

Quote from: hbelkins on May 20, 2015, 04:56:33 PM

Quote from: Duke87 on May 20, 2015, 12:09:09 AM
Does anyone ever actually check their oil the old fashioned way using the dipstick?

I've never (to my knowledge) owned a vehicle that would tell you if the oil level was low.

A low engine oil level warning light is a relatively new feature that some automakers added perhaps ten years ago at the earliest, but many have added only in the past couple of years, and some still do not offer at all. The 2015 Toyota Camry, the best-selling passenger car in the US, does not have the feature.

Considering that the average age of a car in the US is now 11.4 years, I think it's safe to guess that the vast majority of all cars on the road do not have a low engine oil level warning light.

Duke87's comment about the dipstick being the "old fashioned way"  was a bit like asking whether anyone still accesses the Internet "the old fashioned way...on a computer with keys" . Yes, hundreds of millions still do, every day.

My car doesn't even have a dipstick, its all electronic... and yes there is a low oil (and over fill) warning.

Friend of mine had a 1987 aerostar with a low oil sensor.

Quote from: briantroutman on May 20, 2015, 05:32:30 PM
A low engine oil level warning light is a relatively new feature that some automakers added perhaps ten years ago at the earliest, but many have added only in the past couple of years, and some still do not offer at all. The 2015 Toyota Camry, the best-selling passenger car in the US, does not have the feature.

Considering that the average age of a car in the US is now 11.4 years, I think it's safe to guess that the vast majority of all cars on the road do not have a low engine oil level warning light.

Duke87's comment about the dipstick being the "old fashioned way"  was a bit like asking whether anyone still accesses the Internet "the old fashioned way...on a computer with keys" . Yes, hundreds of millions still do, every day.

Okay, fair point. My car is 4 years old. It not only has a warning light, it also has a young enough engine that oil gradually leaking around the pistons into the combustion chamber is not a concern. I suppose this is one of those things that I don't think of because I've never been in the habit of driving older cars.

My civic is new enough that it tells me the oil level to the nearest 10%.  Pity the tire pressure sensors can't do that.  The "check tire pressure" light can mean anything from "one of your tires has leaked 1psi over the past 4 hours" to "you just had a blow out", and pulling over on I-95 in PA to figure out which is NOT fun.  Of course, it won't tell you which tire either, so an inaccurate/sticky pressure rod can even CAUSE the problem when you check!  Had to buy a new one over this car (turns out the old rod underestimated by 5psi, so it was probably time anyways).  Newer Hondas don't even have service intervals any more... you just rely on the car to tell you what needs to be done.

As for gas... no other state has a "safety" issue (excep Oregon), so either there is something VERY defective about New Jersey gas pump technology or it's just a BS excuse for politicians to have a stick up their rears.

I think it's funny that people equate with allowing self serve with a ban on full serve.  Full serve culture is strong in NJ; do people honestly think it would just vanish overnight?  I guarantee that had the law passed, nobody would have cared if the full serve stations were more expensive (at least no NJ natives would).

I don't get the attraction of waiting in line for an overworked jockey to scratch your paint by just dropping your gas cap on the side of the car instead of putting it in the holder on the car's whatchamacallit, and then waiting another five minutes after the pump is done for him to finish with someone else.

When places charge $1/gal more for full serve, it'll vanish over night.

Odd that a Honda TPMS system doesn't show tire pressures. Acuras are one of the few cars that can give psi readings of all 4 tires in real time.

How does Taylor Ham compare to Parks' Sausages?

Quote from: Brandon on May 19, 2015, 02:55:15 PM
Note, cell phones have never caused a fire or an explosion at a gasoline filling station.  They may cause distraction, but they cannot cause a fire or explosion.

"cannot"?

The cell phone is an electric device. Electric devices sometimes spark. In the right situation, a badly malfunctioning cell phone could theoretically cause a spark.

Quote from: Mr. Matté on May 20, 2015, 05:01:15 PM
I had forgotten that NJ's referenda (referendums?) are non-binding except for Constitutional amendments. But still, I hate the fact that he's not even going to allow for a vote on the bill. I'd sorta understand if it was the other way around where Sweeney is strongly in favor of it but he doesn't post it to avoid the embarrassment of it being voted down, but if he thinks that it's a bad idea for the state, let them vote it down and have the representatives of the people show that it's bad.

We now continue with the satellite /r/newjersey forum's Taylor Ham vs. Pork Roll discussion already in progress.

Honestly, I doubt it would be voted down.  The "I will never pump my own gas" crowd is strong in NJ.

You're also dealing with people from a state that will bitch about their high taxes whenever they can, yet a public question that comes up every few years asking to slightly raise taxes to aid Green Acres/Blue Acres/Historical Preservation/Farmland Preservation programs have never been turned down at the polls.

Quote from: vdeane on May 20, 2015, 09:53:06 PMI don't get the attraction of waiting in line for an overworked jockey to scratch your paint by just dropping your gas cap on the side of the car instead of putting it in the holder on the car's whatchamacallit, and then waiting another five minutes after the pump is done for him to finish with someone else.

I wouldn't understand that attraction, either.  Fortunately what you describe almost never happens, so an attraction to it or lack thereof is more or less a non-issue.

QuoteNewer Hondas don't even have service intervals any more... you just rely on the car to tell you what needs to be done.

And the dumbing down of America contines at a blistering pace.

Quote from: bugo on May 21, 2015, 05:25:47 AM

Quote from: Brandon on May 19, 2015, 02:55:15 PM
Note, cell phones have never caused a fire or an explosion at a gasoline filling station.  They may cause distraction, but they cannot cause a fire or explosion.

"cannot"?

The cell phone is an electric device. Electric devices sometimes spark. In the right situation, a badly malfunctioning cell phone could theoretically cause a spark.

No, they cannot.  The Mythbusters did their best to get one to do so, and it was Busted.

Quote from: roadman on May 21, 2015, 09:24:33 AM

QuoteNewer Hondas don't even have service intervals any more... you just rely on the car to tell you what needs to be done.

And the dumbing down of America contines at a blistering pace.

Yes and no.  The maintenance interval is designed to tell you the optimal times when to change oil, preform routine maintenance, etc.

I shake my head when people say they still get their oil changed based on when they want to change it, ignoring the manufacturer's guidelines on changing oil.  Those recommended service intervals are designed to get the maximum mileage from the various oils and parts, which will save you money in the long run.  Changing the oil every so many miles for one's made-up beliefs is simply throwing money out the window.

The dumbing down of America, personally, is more in regards to those that basically say "well, that's what I did in 1957, so I'm still going to do it today".

My old Toyota Tacoma has a recommended time/mileage interval for oil changes.

My Saturn Vue does not have a manufacturer's recommendation for mileage, relying instead on the "oil life remaining" sensor. I suspect there is a time interval recommendation, though.

Valvoline Instant Oil Change seems to have an overall 3 months/3,000 miles recommendation, whichever comes first. Wonder why? Surely not to maximize revenue.

Quote from: hbelkins on May 21, 2015, 11:10:57 AMValvoline Instant Oil Change seems to have an overall 3 months/3,000 miles recommendation, whichever comes first. Wonder why? Surely not to maximize revenue.

Marketing-driven advice like this sure doesn't help our collective intelligence, either.  Reminds me of a rumor a few years back that one of the leading building vapor-barrier wraps would only be warrantied if installed with one particular side up–completely irrelevant to its function, but critical to the trademark being read.

Quote from: vdeane on May 20, 2015, 09:53:06 PM
My civic is new enough that it tells me the oil level to the nearest 10%.  Newer Hondas don't even have service intervals any more... you just rely on the car to tell you what needs to be done.

Quote from: roadman on May 21, 2015, 09:24:33 AMAnd the dumbing down of America contines at a blistering pace.

I don't think that's particularly fair: I've worked at a Honda dealer, and your gentle drivers require less maintenance and your Hoonigans require more frequent maintenance. Nobody wants to pay for unnecessary maintenance, and this cuts down on that. Theoretically, if you run the engine over higher temperatures, hit more tachometer redlines, drive it raggedly, then you'd need more frequent maintenance anyway. It does make controlled interval planning a bit more difficult.

As to the low-oil sensor...plenty of cars still have them. If you're actually taking care of oil leaks and maintaining it as recommended, then only a few modern cars will regularly burn or consume oil. I check the oil level after an oil change, to make sure they didn't oil-out my car.

There are some cars with transmissions without dipsticks, but there has to be some way to get the fluid in...probably some over-complicated way.

QuotePity the tire pressure sensors can't do that.  The "check tire pressure" light can mean anything from "one of your tires has leaked 1psi over the past 4 hours" to "you just had a blow out", and pulling over on I-95 in PA to figure out which is NOT fun.  Of course, it won't tell you which tire either, so an inaccurate/sticky pressure rod can even CAUSE the problem when you check!  Had to buy a new one over this car (turns out the old rod underestimated by 5psi, so it was probably time anyways).

Some cars have this; lots of modern GM vehicles have it, so do some VW/Audi products, a bunch of Mercedes-Benz and BMW vehicles have it, too. I think it's far better than a light which comes on when you're 20% over/under the placard.

Quote from: bugo on May 21, 2015, 05:25:47 AM

Quote from: Brandon on May 19, 2015, 02:55:15 PM
Note, cell phones have never caused a fire or an explosion at a gasoline filling station.  They may cause distraction, but they cannot cause a fire or explosion.

"cannot"?

The cell phone is an electric device. Electric devices sometimes spark. In the right situation, a badly malfunctioning cell phone could theoretically cause a spark.

Yeah, because nobody's ever smoked near a gas station, left their car running while pumping, nor crashed into anything at a gas station. Nobody's proven a single gas station fire has started from a cellphone having a spontaneous combustion. Time to get over the cellphone paranoia just because you don't want one.

Could a faulty charger cable cause it...possibly, but only if the ignition is left on, or in accessory mode.

Quote from: Brandon on May 21, 2015, 09:56:06 AMNo, they cannot.  The Mythbusters did their best to get one to do so, and it was Busted.

...and the phrase "panty-static charge" has been permanently stuck in my head ever since.

Of my two Hondas, one has the tire pressure system with individual tire alerts; the other (CRV) has just a general alert.  Going back a year now (or 2 years, I forget), the TPMS light came on during a road trip to Ohio.  I'll come on, then go off.  After a few stops at Hondas along the way, I understood it to be the monitoring system in general is failing.  I finally had it checked out at my local Honda, and it was determined that the system itself needs to be replaced - a $300 or so repair job.

Or, I can live with the orange TPMS light, and check my tire pressure occasionally.  Cost: $7.99 for a digital tire pressure gauge.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 21, 2015, 07:02:49 AM

Quote from: vdeane on May 20, 2015, 09:53:06 PMI don't get the attraction of waiting in line for an overworked jockey to scratch your paint by just dropping your gas cap on the side of the car instead of putting it in the holder on the car's whatchamacallit, and then waiting another five minutes after the pump is done for him to finish with someone else.

I wouldn't understand that attraction, either.  Fortunately what you describe almost never happens, so an attraction to it or lack thereof is more or less a non-issue.

There's always a bit of waiting whenever I get gas in NJ, and the guy always just drops the gas cap rather than putting it in the holder.  Yes I'm impatient; I fully admit that.

Quote from: vdeane on May 20, 2015, 09:53:06 PM
My civic is new enough that it tells me the oil level to the nearest 10%.  Pity the tire pressure sensors can't do that.  The "check tire pressure" light can mean anything from "one of your tires has leaked 1psi over the past 4 hours" to "you just had a blow out", and pulling over on I-95 in PA to figure out which is NOT fun.

Eh. If you have a flat or blown out tire, you'll know immediately based on the sudden lack of handling and unusual noise it makes. The low tire pressure light is just "thank you Captain Obvious" at that point.

As for it not being able to tell you which tire is low, yeah, only a pressure gauge can do that. Better yet, get a portable air compressor. Not only tells you what the pressure is, but can reinflate any floppy tires so long as they are only leaking slowly.

Quote from: Duke87 on May 22, 2015, 12:13:50 AM

Quote from: vdeane on May 20, 2015, 09:53:06 PM
My civic is new enough that it tells me the oil level to the nearest 10%.  Pity the tire pressure sensors can't do that.  The "check tire pressure" light can mean anything from "one of your tires has leaked 1psi over the past 4 hours" to "you just had a blow out", and pulling over on I-95 in PA to figure out which is NOT fun.

Eh. If you have a flat or blown out tire, you'll know immediately based on the sudden lack of handling and unusual noise it makes. The low tire pressure light is just "thank you Captain Obvious" at that point.

That notwithstanding, my Toyota Prius' tire pressure warning light blinks rapidly if there's a blowout, rather than shine steadily for a slower leak.

Quote from: Brandon on May 21, 2015, 09:56:06 AM

Quote from: bugo on May 21, 2015, 05:25:47 AM

Quote from: Brandon on May 19, 2015, 02:55:15 PM
Note, cell phones have never caused a fire or an explosion at a gasoline filling station.  They may cause distraction, but they cannot cause a fire or explosion.

"cannot"?

The cell phone is an electric device. Electric devices sometimes spark. In the right situation, a badly malfunctioning cell phone could theoretically cause a spark.

No, they cannot.  The Mythbusters did their best to get one to do so, and it was Busted.

The Mythbusters is just a TV show. Who knows if their conclusions are truthful or not because they often do not use the scientific method. If there's electricity, there's a possibility of a spark. Period. Maybe somebody mowing a yard will send a rock flying into the cell phone that is being used. Don't tell me that it's impossible to do something that is very possible. We're not trying to redefine gravity here.

Quote from: vdeane on May 21, 2015, 09:19:53 PM

Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 21, 2015, 07:02:49 AM

Quote from: vdeane on May 20, 2015, 09:53:06 PMI don't get the attraction of waiting in line for an overworked jockey to scratch your paint by just dropping your gas cap on the side of the car instead of putting it in the holder on the car's whatchamacallit, and then waiting another five minutes after the pump is done for him to finish with someone else.

I wouldn't understand that attraction, either.  Fortunately what you describe almost never happens, so an attraction to it or lack thereof is more or less a non-issue.

There's always a bit of waiting whenever I get gas in NJ, and the guy always just drops the gas cap rather than putting it in the holder.  Yes I'm impatient; I fully admit that.

I just look at it as time to use as I see fit.  For example, someone is pumping my gas as I type this, and I am seated the whole time in a nice cushy chair.

Edit: seated for the full four minutes it took to get 16 gallons of gas.

Quote from: bugo on May 22, 2015, 09:02:02 AM

Quote from: Brandon on May 21, 2015, 09:56:06 AM

Quote from: bugo on May 21, 2015, 05:25:47 AM

Quote from: Brandon on May 19, 2015, 02:55:15 PM
Note, cell phones have never caused a fire or an explosion at a gasoline filling station.  They may cause distraction, but they cannot cause a fire or explosion.

"cannot"?

The cell phone is an electric device. Electric devices sometimes spark. In the right situation, a badly malfunctioning cell phone could theoretically cause a spark.

No, they cannot.  The Mythbusters did their best to get one to do so, and it was Busted.

The Mythbusters is just a TV show. Who knows if their conclusions are truthful or not because they often do not use the scientific method. If there's electricity, there's a possibility of a spark. Period. Maybe somebody mowing a yard will send a rock flying into the cell phone that is being used. Don't tell me that it's impossible to do something that is very possible. We're not trying to redefine gravity here.

Semantically, yes, it is theoretically possible for a cellphone to ignite an explosion. It's theoretically possible for a lot of things to ignite an explosion, including the pump itself (also runs on electricity!).

But while theoretically possible, it would require some odd freak circumstances to actually happen. So the point stands that the risk is negligible and we don't need to freak out about people using their phones while pumping gas.

Interesting paragraph from a article in today's Times:

"But Robert Scott III, a professor of economics at Monmouth University who wrote a 2007 analysis of the self-service bans, found the savings [from allowing self-serve] would be negligible – three or four cents. And self-service did not save drivers much time at the pump: It took just 15 seconds longer to fill up at New Jersey stations than in neighboring Pennsylvania."

Full item:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/05/23/nyregion/new-jersey-drivers-dont-pump-gas-and-dont-intend-to.html

They must have done the study on a station that had a jockey for each pump and/or paid cash.  Paying with a credit card, the difference between just pulling up at the pump in a neighboring state and a typical NJ station with one jockey covering every single pump there, and the difference is huge enough that Fucillo needs to get involved.

Quote from: Duke87 on May 22, 2015, 12:13:50 AM

Quote from: vdeane on May 20, 2015, 09:53:06 PM
My civic is new enough that it tells me the oil level to the nearest 10%.  Pity the tire pressure sensors can't do that.  The "check tire pressure" light can mean anything from "one of your tires has leaked 1psi over the past 4 hours" to "you just had a blow out", and pulling over on I-95 in PA to figure out which is NOT fun.

Eh. If you have a flat or blown out tire, you'll know immediately based on the sudden lack of handling and unusual noise it makes. The low tire pressure light is just "thank you Captain Obvious" at that point.

As for it not being able to tell you which tire is low, yeah, only a pressure gauge can do that. Better yet, get a portable air compressor. Not only tells you what the pressure is, but can reinflate any floppy tires so long as they are only leaking slowly

After having two flats and a leaking valve stem in the span of a single year, I'm definitely paranoid about everything tire related right now.  Even bumpy pavement or gusty winds can get me worried about whether something is wrong.

I use almost exclusively full serve stations here (they're cheaper) and the usual order is 1. I tell them what I want, 2. They ask if cash or charge, 3. I hand them the card as they get the pump going (I almost never pay cash), 4. They run the card while pumping, or simply swipe it once and give it back to me.  Those that don't give it back right away are generally there pretty quick after with the clipboard and receipt.

There is usually one guy per four cars, here and in New Jersey.  The likely staggering of orders usually works pretty well, unless all four cars show up at once.  In the latter case, we all exercise that most crucial of concepts that holds together society, just a little teeny bit of patience.

The simple fact is this: gas stations are like every other business, and they make more money if they get people through faster.  This is true whether because terrible service drives people away, or more throughput sells more gas.  Any gas station with any competition–self, full, whatever–operates according to these rules.  And having done my time under what's made out to be the oppression of gas-buying in New Jersey, I assure you most of them get this, and do a decent job of getting folks in and out in a reasonable amount of time.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 23, 2015, 09:37:01 PM
Interesting paragraph from a article in today's Times:

"But Robert Scott III, a professor of economics at Monmouth University who wrote a 2007 analysis of the self-service bans, found the savings [from allowing self-serve] would be negligible — three or four cents. And self-service did not save drivers much time at the pump: It took just 15 seconds longer to fill up at New Jersey stations than in neighboring Pennsylvania."

Full item:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/05/23/nyregion/new-jersey-drivers-dont-pump-gas-and-dont-intend-to.html

Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 23, 2015, 09:37:01 PM
Interesting paragraph from a article in today's Times:

"But Robert Scott III, a professor of economics at Monmouth University who wrote a 2007 analysis of the self-service bans, found the savings [from allowing self-serve] would be negligible — three or four cents. And self-service did not save drivers much time at the pump: It took just 15 seconds longer to fill up at New Jersey stations than in neighboring Pennsylvania."

Full item:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/05/23/nyregion/new-jersey-drivers-dont-pump-gas-and-dont-intend-to.html

We love the insight of that study!

For the study to be perfect, one would need to go to a gas station needing the same amount of gas.  One would also have to understand how to work the pump.  If the study used someone from NJ who normally doesn't operate pumps, it would add significant time to the refueling process to figure out how to operate the pump.  And it would also be interesting to note when the 'time' started.  Did the study's stopwatch start when the attendant approached the car, and the study ignored the time waiting at the pump for the attendant? 

Being the study's summary in the paper is just the paragraph Pete quoted above, there's really not much to go on to see how 'scientific' the study was.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 24, 2015, 10:27:37 AM

Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 23, 2015, 09:37:01 PM
Interesting paragraph from a article in today's Times:

"But Robert Scott III, a professor of economics at Monmouth University who wrote a 2007 analysis of the self-service bans, found the savings [from allowing self-serve] would be negligible — three or four cents. And self-service did not save drivers much time at the pump: It took just 15 seconds longer to fill up at New Jersey stations than in neighboring Pennsylvania."

Full item:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/05/23/nyregion/new-jersey-drivers-dont-pump-gas-and-dont-intend-to.html

Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 23, 2015, 09:37:01 PM
Interesting paragraph from a article in today's Times:

"But Robert Scott III, a professor of economics at Monmouth University who wrote a 2007 analysis of the self-service bans, found the savings [from allowing self-serve] would be negligible — three or four cents. And self-service did not save drivers much time at the pump: It took just 15 seconds longer to fill up at New Jersey stations than in neighboring Pennsylvania."

Full item:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/05/23/nyregion/new-jersey-drivers-dont-pump-gas-and-dont-intend-to.html

We love the insight of that study!

For the study to be perfect, one would need to go to a gas station needing the same amount of gas.  One would also have to understand how to work the pump.  If the study used someone from NJ who normally doesn't operate pumps, it would add significant time to the refueling process to figure out how to operate the pump.  And it would also be interesting to note when the 'time' started.  Did the study's stopwatch start when the attendant approached the car, and the study ignored the time waiting at the pump for the attendant? 

Being the study's summary in the paper is just the paragraph Pete quoted above, there's really not much to go on to see how 'scientific' the study was.

There's not, but it would be silly to expect a newspaper article to go into the detail you mention, and you can easily track down the study and properly vet their methodologies if you want to.  Let us know what you find out.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 24, 2015, 11:46:14 AM
There's not, but it would be silly to expect a newspaper article to go into the detail you mention, and you can easily track down the study and properly vet their methodologies if you want to.  Let us know what you find out.

Then it's silly to use this study as a talking point in this thread.

Quote from: bugo on May 24, 2015, 12:51:23 PM

Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 24, 2015, 11:46:14 AM
There's not, but it would be silly to expect a newspaper article to go into the detail you mention, and you can easily track down the study and properly vet their methodologies if you want to.  Let us know what you find out.

Then it's silly to use this study as a talking point in this thread.

Let's be sure to hold every piece of data brought up in these forums to the same standard.

I called it "interesting," not definitive nor even correct.  "Interesting" means it makes for relevant conversation.  But you know this already.

There's a big difference between what's mentioned in a public newspaper vs. a private forum.

If the study isn't correct, then that's all the more reason not to mention it in said newspaper. But as noted many times, newspapers aren't really striving for accuracy, they're striving to prove their side of the debate.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 24, 2015, 02:11:51 PM
There's a big difference between what's mentioned in a public newspaper vs. a private forum.

If the study isn't correct, then that's all the more reason not to mention it in said newspaper. But as noted many times, newspapers aren't really striving for accuracy, they're striving to prove their side of the debate.

I agree with you on this matter. I was thinking it over. You have to assume the fuel takes the same amount of time to pump. The difference in time is waiting for the attendant. How long does that take on average? I think 8 seconds is too low.

If my JSTOR access still works, I'll find the relevant info on the methodologies.

Quote from: Alps on May 29, 2015, 06:58:59 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 24, 2015, 02:11:51 PM
There's a big difference between what's mentioned in a public newspaper vs. a private forum.

If the study isn't correct, then that's all the more reason not to mention it in said newspaper. But as noted many times, newspapers aren't really striving for accuracy, they're striving to prove their side of the debate.

I agree with you on this matter. I was thinking it over. You have to assume the fuel takes the same amount of time to pump. The difference in time is waiting for the attendant. How long does that take on average? I think 8 seconds is too low.

Also, perception versus reality. Waiting for an attendant may not take very long objectively speaking, but to an impatient driver any nonzero wait can cause annoyance.

Still, I feel like the conclusion of "allowing self serve gas would bring minimal benefit" is showing a blatant normalcy bias, i.e. default to the status quo. Forget what any state does or doesn't allow, let's assume we just colonized a new planet and are drawing up gas station regulations where none currently exist. Based on the pros and cons, should motorists on Mars be allowed to pump their own gas, or not?

Quote from: bugo on May 22, 2015, 09:02:02 AM

Quote from: Brandon on May 21, 2015, 09:56:06 AM

Quote from: bugo on May 21, 2015, 05:25:47 AM

Quote from: Brandon on May 19, 2015, 02:55:15 PM
Note, cell phones have never caused a fire or an explosion at a gasoline filling station.  They may cause distraction, but they cannot cause a fire or explosion.

"cannot"?

The cell phone is an electric device. Electric devices sometimes spark. In the right situation, a badly malfunctioning cell phone could theoretically cause a spark.

No, they cannot.  The Mythbusters did their best to get one to do so, and it was Busted.

The Mythbusters is just a TV show. Who knows if their conclusions are truthful or not because they often do not use the scientific method. If there's electricity, there's a possibility of a spark. Period. Maybe somebody mowing a yard will send a rock flying into the cell phone that is being used. Don't tell me that it's impossible to do something that is very possible. We're not trying to redefine gravity here.

We made people get off their phones while pumping gas, put gas cans on the ground, not leave their pumps unattended, not get back in their cars.  If they weren't going to follow the safety rules they didn't get to pump gas.