The Detroit Free Press's Brian Dickerson has a really interesting column (http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/columnists/brian-dickerson/2015/08/01/many-counties/31004239/) on the number of counties and whether we need as many as we did when they were formed in the 1800s. Some of the statistics aren't all that surprising, but this column should hold some appeal for the county counters, which is a large subsection of the roadgeek community.
Quote from: rawmustard on August 03, 2015, 10:18:47 AM
The Detroit Free Press's Brian Dickerson has a really interesting column (http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/columnists/brian-dickerson/2015/08/01/many-counties/31004239/) on the number of counties and whether we need as many as we did when they were formed in the 1800s. Some of the statistics aren't all that surprising, but this column should hold some appeal for the county counters, which is a large subsection of the roadgeek community.
I believe it was Tom Brokaw that called for fewer counties in Iowa some years ago.
Here in NY, Governor Cuomo has been trying to "incentivize" consolidation amongst our ridiculously complex hierarchy of local entities through tightening state funds that are distributed to them (i.e., here are pennies that could be used if you shared services with your neighbor. You refuse to do so? Okay...then you can't afford to provide the services yourselves).
As far as I'm aware, it hasn't worked.
At least here in NY, all those local entities are little fiefdoms. There is just too much advantage to keeping the status quo rather than dissolving whatever organizations.
Makes you wonder how Massachusetts and other states were able to weaken counties to the point to where they barely exist anymore (i.e., a courthouse and a sheriff and not much else).
Quote from: Rothman on August 03, 2015, 10:27:30 AM
Makes you wonder how Massachusetts and other states were able to weaken counties to the point to where they barely exist anymore (i.e., a courthouse and a sheriff and not much else).
Here in Connecticut, the counties have no power whatsoever. The only significance they have is for the National Weather Service, to differentiate who they're issuing weather warnings for.
We need more counties here in CT-or at least split up Fairfield. All the attention is focused on RICH southern Fairfield. X-(
Talk to Georgia about that. It is full of small counties. It is behind only Texas for the most counties in the nation.
Counties were set-up to allow residents to be able to reach the courthouse (on horseback) and get back home within 1 day of travel.
Except where there are large populations of people that do not use motor vehicles for mobility (large and very dense urban areas such as New York County (Manhattan) and the Amish people being an example), that is (IMO) an obsolete requirement that should be done-away with (and already has been in some states - consider that it is 213 miles (one way) from Needles, California in the far eastern part of the county to the court house in downtown San Bernardino.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 03, 2015, 12:06:38 PM
consider that it is 213 miles (one way) from Needles, California in the far eastern part of the county to the court house in downtown San Bernardino.
Still a hike for Needles no matter where they are, but consider that San Bernardino County has courthouses in other places besides just the city (http://www.sb-court.org/Locations.aspx).
In Canada, Manitoba earlier this year ruthlessly reduced the number of its municipalities (including the most county-like units, "rural municipalities") by forcible consolidations of municipalities with populations under 1000. Sometimes that was done by folding separate town governments into their surrounding RMs, but in other cases two or even three RMs had to be combined to reach the minimum population threshold. The only remaining small-population municipalities are a few in northern Manitoba, usually isolated ones with no neighbors they could be merged with.
I really wish Saskatchewan would do something like that. It has more RMs (296) than Texas has counties (254), in an area about half the size of Texas, if you exclude the northern half of the province within the sparsely-populated and RM-free Northern Saskatchewan Administration District. Saskatchewan, and even Manitoba post-consolidations, definitely have way too many counties if you consider their RMs to be county equivalents.
Monroe County, FL not only covers all the keys, but has land on the mainland south of Collier as well. Nonetheless, its over 130 miles to Key Largo from the courthouse at US 1's southern terminus in Key West. Then on the mainland by road its further yet via another county probably doubling that.
No matter where you are on the islands you have a long travel along slow US 1 though any of the Keys if talking about large area and traveling.
Quote from: oscar on August 03, 2015, 02:46:56 PM
In Canada, Manitoba earlier this year ruthlessly reduced the number of its municipalities (including the most county-like units, "rural municipalities") by forcible consolidations of municipalities with populations under 1000. Sometimes that was done by folding separate town governments into their surrounding RMs, but in other cases two or even three RMs had to be combined to reach the minimum population threshold. The only remaining small-population municipalities are a few in northern Manitoba, usually isolated ones with no neighbors they could be merged with.
Ironically, the most effective way to alleviate the oft-lamented multiple layers of government in the U.S. would be this kind of Canadian-style consolidation imposed by the state legislatures. But of course, the side of the political spectrum that tends to favor reduced layers of government would never condone this kind of overreach by the bigwigs at the state level. In other words, it takes Big Government to effect Less Government, and that's a political paradox in this country.
iPhone
Quote from: empirestate on August 03, 2015, 03:18:52 PM
Quote from: oscar on August 03, 2015, 02:46:56 PM
In Canada, Manitoba earlier this year ruthlessly reduced the number of its municipalities (including the most county-like units, "rural municipalities") by forcible consolidations of municipalities with populations under 1000. Sometimes that was done by folding separate town governments into their surrounding RMs, but in other cases two or even three RMs had to be combined to reach the minimum population threshold. The only remaining small-population municipalities are a few in northern Manitoba, usually isolated ones with no neighbors they could be merged with.
Ironically, the most effective way to alleviate the oft-lamented multiple layers of government in the U.S. would be this kind of Canadian-style consolidation imposed by the state legislatures. But of course, the side of the political spectrum that tends to favor reduced layers of government would never condone this kind of overreach by the bigwigs at the state level. In other words, it takes Big Government to effect Less Government, and that's a political paradox in this country.
New Jersey comes to mind as having an inefficient multitude of minor township governments, which gets complained about a lot. But as you say, it takes a fair amount of political will to overcome the whining by the minor-league politicians who would lose their positions. That happened in Manitoba, too, though they had an opportunity to file administrative appeals with the ministry responsible for municipal governments, but in the end the ministry's plan was implemented in full.
Of course, consolidations of local governments are not guaranteed to lead to efficiency. Hawaii, for example, has only four counties (plus tiny, oddball Kalawao County, which is a benevolent co-dictatorship of the state health department and the National Park Service), with no local governments under the county level. And many traditionally local functions (such as K-12 public schools, and libraries) are run by the state. Yet even with one less layer of government, Hawaii is no paragon of efficiency,
In Florida (at least in northeast Florida. Maybe influence of consolidation of Duval County and Jacksonville) the county is the local government for many areas. And not just rural areas. Many incorporated cities don't really have much administrative function. They rely on County government for fire and police service. Really no reason to incorporate when municipal services are provided by County. Yes I know there are exceptions.
Schools are already county wide in Florida.
Maryland has very few incorporated cities. The counties seem to provide municipal functions
In NJ there are so many local governments and school districts, lots of patronage jobs to give out. It will take lots of political will to eliminate any of them. Although people do identify with County very strongly
Although in Southern California there are some gigantic counties, in the Sierra and far north there are several tiny counties that really ought to be merged.
Quote from: Big John on August 03, 2015, 12:05:28 PM
Talk to Georgia about that. It is full of small counties. It is behind only Texas for the most counties in the nation.
Oddly, given the multitude of relatively small counties in Georgia serving as the predominant form of local government for much of the state, it ends up looking a lot like Connecticut, where, with the abolition of counties, the state is broken up primarily into towns the way Georgia is with counties. And offhand, I'd guess that each comprises an approximately equal percentage of area in one state as it does in the other.
But I'm also willing to wager that, despite their apparent similarity, the prevailing attitude towards the respective efficiency of their local government forms is very different between the two states.
iPhone
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 03, 2015, 10:41:48 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 03, 2015, 10:27:30 AM
Makes you wonder how Massachusetts and other states were able to weaken counties to the point to where they barely exist anymore (i.e., a courthouse and a sheriff and not much else).
Here in Connecticut, the counties have no power whatsoever. The only significance they have is for the National Weather Service, to differentiate who they're issuing weather warnings for.
We need more counties here in CT-or at least split up Fairfield. All the attention is focused on RICH southern Fairfield. X-(
CT's counties are still used to divide up various state court districts, and of course by the Census Bureau to keep track of population.
I found it interesting that most of the arguments in the article were about the inefficiencies of smaller units of government within the county, not the counties themselves. It's not the fault of the county that cities, villages and townships took over responsibility for some services.
Also, I don't know if the map in the link is much smaller than what was printed in the newspaper. I don't know what the shading of certain counties is for. But Kent County touches Lake Michigan?
Looks like the shading for the counties on that map (presumably those of a higher population such as Kent) is off a bit to the west from their actual location. Indianapolis (Marion County) is further west in the state than it ought to be and Louisville (Jefferson County) is located in the middle of Southern Indiana. Last I knew, Ottawa and Allegan Counties separated Kent from Lake Michigan.
^^ And Fulton County GA does not touch Alabama.
We don't have too many counties. In some states, we don't have enough.
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 03, 2015, 10:41:48 AMWe need more counties here in CT-or at least split up Fairfield. All the attention is focused on RICH southern Fairfield. X-(
New Jersey fractured into countless little jurisdictions along just these kinds of issues. Rich vs. poor, town vs. country, wet vs. dry, etc. This resulted in the most government per square mile in the country, something that now begets parochialism and inefficiency. It is not a solution.
I don't think Indiana has too many counties, but I do think that the state needs to do away with townships. They are a relic from the days when travel was much slower and you needed government at a smaller level of geography than a county. Now they are just a waste of money.
Obviously, what a county does for people varies from state to state. The more it does (as opposed to the state, or some subdivision of a county like a township or some overlaying special district) then the more counties you need, because you want government officials to be responsible to a small enough group of people that poor decision makers can be held accountable.
In WV, the only sub-county unit, a district that elected a kangaroo court JP and a (full law enforcement powers, no training at all) constable was abolished in the 70s. The county pretty much has very limited powers. Schools are county run, but state funded and the state has taken an increasing role in how the money is spent. Counties have no roads function at all. Only a handful of places have water, sewer or garbage functions run by the county. Jails have been regionalized for 20 years. Sheriffs provide basic law enforcement, and then you have the standard courthouse functions (taxes, court and land records, probate, and so on). Welfare is state run. Libraries are special overlaying districts. Health departments (free clinics, smoke Nazis, and restaurant inspections) are county based, but mostly state funded. The court system uses counties as the basis for its districts, but is state funded and state run.
If you want to change the world, running for County Commissioner isn't your ticket. You are not in charge of much that is going to really make a difference in anybody's life.
As the state empties, some pundits have pointed out the savings to be gained by county consolidation. Every county has highly (especially by rural WV standards) County Commissioners X3, County Clerk, Circuit Clerk, Assessor, Sheriff, Prosecutor, and their attendent staffs, plus the grossly over-paid Magistrates (at least 2, up to 11) who are non-lawyer small claims judges and their staff. Plus the vast county Board of Education staffs, and the pretty much county based (though state funded) Circuit Court. You could cut the 55 counties down to 20 or so and do fine. But nothing will ever come of it. Too many people undersand that they can get elected County Clerk and draw $80K for doing not much.
Quote from: bandit957 on August 03, 2015, 10:09:05 PM
We don't have too many counties. In some states, we don't have enough.
I would agree in certain areas. Where you have a lot of counties with populations under 1,000 or so, yes, those should be combined. On the other hand, you have the 5,000,000 population Cook County, Illinois. That one should really be split into 3 or 4 counties (with one being coterminous with the City of Chicago) to better serve the residents there.
Quote from: jwolfer on August 03, 2015, 04:00:39 PM
In Florida (at least in northeast Florida. Maybe influence of consolidation of Duval County and Jacksonville) the county is the local government for many areas. And not just rural areas. Many incorporated cities don't really have much administrative function. They rely on County government for fire and police service. Really no reason to incorporate when municipal services are provided by County. Yes I know there are exceptions.
Schools are already county wide in Florida.
Maryland has very few incorporated cities. The counties seem to provide municipal functions
In NJ there are so many local governments and school districts, lots of patronage jobs to give out. It will take lots of political will to eliminate any of them. Although people do identify with County very strongly
In New Jersey they only identify county as a regional thing to let people know what part of Jersey you are from. I lived there and right near the Union/ Middlesex County Line, but we never referred to it as such. We would more call it the Clark/ Colonia Line and even NJ roads posts municipal borders for reference on its state highways over county lines. In fact county lines do not denote the change for a new county, but the township, borough, city, etc when approaching the county border.
Sales tax is the same per each county, and other than blue laws (which Bergen holds steadfast to till this very day) nothing really takes notice of the counties except that it is the regional identifier for New Jerseyans.
Quote from: roadman65 on August 04, 2015, 11:58:22 AM
Quote from: jwolfer on August 03, 2015, 04:00:39 PM
In Florida (at least in northeast Florida. Maybe influence of consolidation of Duval County and Jacksonville) the county is the local government for many areas. And not just rural areas. Many incorporated cities don't really have much administrative function. They rely on County government for fire and police service. Really no reason to incorporate when municipal services are provided by County. Yes I know there are exceptions.
Schools are already county wide in Florida.
Maryland has very few incorporated cities. The counties seem to provide municipal functions
In NJ there are so many local governments and school districts, lots of patronage jobs to give out. It will take lots of political will to eliminate any of them. Although people do identify with County very strongly
In New Jersey they only identify county as a regional thing to let people know what part of Jersey you are from. I lived there and right near the Union/ Middlesex County Line, but we never referred to it as such. We would more call it the Clark/ Colonia Line and even NJ roads posts municipal borders for reference on its state highways over county lines. In fact county lines do not denote the change for a new county, but the township, borough, city, etc when approaching the county border.
Sales tax is the same per each county, and other than blue laws (which Bergen holds steadfast to till this very day) nothing really takes notice of the counties except that it is the regional identifier for New Jerseyans.
That's exactly what I mean. Regional identifier
Counties in NJ were also helpful in placing Garden State Parkway toll booths.
Arizona actually has a small number of counties for such a large state. Arizona's laws concerning county secession are some of the strictest in the nation. I know former Arizona State Senator Russell Pearce once tried to ease the laws twice to allow the East Valley of the Phoenix metro area to secede from Maricopa County. The original proposal in the early 1990s included the cities and towns of Mesa (which would have been the county seat), Chandler, Gilbert, Queen Creek, Tempe, and Guadalupe, while a second attempt in the early 2000s did not include Tempe nor Guadalupe.
It's hard to imagine Mesa being the seat of anything, despite its size.
Apparently Arizona's laws came as the result of one of America's youngest counties, La Paz, being created before it was a viable entity. Were the previous laws exceptionally lax, or just average?
iPhone
Quote from: roadman65 on August 04, 2015, 11:58:22 AM
Quote from: jwolfer on August 03, 2015, 04:00:39 PM
In Florida (at least in northeast Florida. Maybe influence of consolidation of Duval County and Jacksonville) the county is the local government for many areas. And not just rural areas. Many incorporated cities don't really have much administrative function. They rely on County government for fire and police service. Really no reason to incorporate when municipal services are provided by County. Yes I know there are exceptions.
Schools are already county wide in Florida.
Maryland has very few incorporated cities. The counties seem to provide municipal functions
In NJ there are so many local governments and school districts, lots of patronage jobs to give out. It will take lots of political will to eliminate any of them. Although people do identify with County very strongly
In New Jersey they only identify county as a regional thing to let people know what part of Jersey you are from. I lived there and right near the Union/ Middlesex County Line, but we never referred to it as such. We would more call it the Clark/ Colonia Line and even NJ roads posts municipal borders for reference on its state highways over county lines. In fact county lines do not denote the change for a new county, but the township, borough, city, etc when approaching the county border.
Sales tax is the same per each county, and other than blue laws (which Bergen holds steadfast to till this very day) nothing really takes notice of the counties except that it is the regional identifier for New Jerseyans.
Yes and no. People do use their county to establish location, particularly because few people know 565 municipalities, but most know most of the 21 counties. But there is significant county government, including road, park, health care, law enforcement, and other services.
Town line signs at county lines do often denote the county in my experience.
Quote from: Rothman on August 04, 2015, 12:37:34 PM
Counties in NJ were also helpful in placing Garden State Parkway toll booths.
Helpful as in placing them to allow GSP drivers on short trips to avoid having to pay (at least at the mainline plazas)?
It is my understanding that the Connecticut Turnpike toll barriers were sited to allow as many local trips as possible to be made free of charge (unlike the GSP, I do not recall any ramp tolls on the Connecticut Pike).
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 05, 2015, 11:55:12 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 04, 2015, 12:37:34 PM
Counties in NJ were also helpful in placing Garden State Parkway toll booths.
Helpful as in placing them to allow GSP drivers on short trips to avoid having to pay (at least at the mainline plazas)?
Nah, just in terms of locating the barriers. With only a couple of exceptions, it's basically one per county:
Cape May Toll Plaza: Cape May County
Great Egg Toll Plaza: Atlantic County
New Gretna Toll Plaza: Burlington County
Barnegat Toll Plaza: Ocean County
Toms River Toll Plaza: Ocean County
Asbury Park Toll Plaza: Monmouth County
Raritan Toll Plaza: Middlesex County
Union Toll Plaza: Union County
Essex Toll Plaza: Essex County
Bergen Toll Plaza: Bergen County
Pascack Valley Toll Plaza: Bergen County
Kentucky definitely has too many counties. Most are too small. But Pike County is definitely too big, especially given its terrain, and should be split at least into two counties.
I also thought some of WV's counties are too big. Seems like you can drive forever in some of them and not make it to the county seat.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 04, 2015, 04:30:52 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 04, 2015, 11:58:22 AM
Quote from: jwolfer on August 03, 2015, 04:00:39 PM
In Florida (at least in northeast Florida. Maybe influence of consolidation of Duval County and Jacksonville) the county is the local government for many areas. And not just rural areas. Many incorporated cities don't really have much administrative function. They rely on County government for fire and police service. Really no reason to incorporate when municipal services are provided by County. Yes I know there are exceptions.
Schools are already county wide in Florida.
Maryland has very few incorporated cities. The counties seem to provide municipal functions
In NJ there are so many local governments and school districts, lots of patronage jobs to give out. It will take lots of political will to eliminate any of them. Although people do identify with County very strongly
In New Jersey they only identify county as a regional thing to let people know what part of Jersey you are from. I lived there and right near the Union/ Middlesex County Line, but we never referred to it as such. We would more call it the Clark/ Colonia Line and even NJ roads posts municipal borders for reference on its state highways over county lines. In fact county lines do not denote the change for a new county, but the township, borough, city, etc when approaching the county border.
Sales tax is the same per each county, and other than blue laws (which Bergen holds steadfast to till this very day) nothing really takes notice of the counties except that it is the regional identifier for New Jerseyans.
Yes and no. People do use their county to establish location, particularly because few people know 565 municipalities, but most know most of the 21 counties. But there is significant county government, including road, park, health care, law enforcement, and other services.
Town line signs at county lines do often denote the county in my experience.
It seems that NJ is preparing for County governments eventually, sort of like Maryland. There is County-wide school boards for vocational schools.
Quote from: jwolfer on August 05, 2015, 08:15:52 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 04, 2015, 04:30:52 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 04, 2015, 11:58:22 AM
Quote from: jwolfer on August 03, 2015, 04:00:39 PM
In Florida (at least in northeast Florida. Maybe influence of consolidation of Duval County and Jacksonville) the county is the local government for many areas. And not just rural areas. Many incorporated cities don't really have much administrative function. They rely on County government for fire and police service. Really no reason to incorporate when municipal services are provided by County. Yes I know there are exceptions.
Schools are already county wide in Florida.
Maryland has very few incorporated cities. The counties seem to provide municipal functions
In NJ there are so many local governments and school districts, lots of patronage jobs to give out. It will take lots of political will to eliminate any of them. Although people do identify with County very strongly
In New Jersey they only identify county as a regional thing to let people know what part of Jersey you are from. I lived there and right near the Union/ Middlesex County Line, but we never referred to it as such. We would more call it the Clark/ Colonia Line and even NJ roads posts municipal borders for reference on its state highways over county lines. In fact county lines do not denote the change for a new county, but the township, borough, city, etc when approaching the county border.
Sales tax is the same per each county, and other than blue laws (which Bergen holds steadfast to till this very day) nothing really takes notice of the counties except that it is the regional identifier for New Jerseyans.
Yes and no. People do use their county to establish location, particularly because few people know 565 municipalities, but most know most of the 21 counties. But there is significant county government, including road, park, health care, law enforcement, and other services.
Town line signs at county lines do often denote the county in my experience.
It seems that NJ is preparing for County governments eventually, sort of like Maryland. There is County-wide school boards for vocational schools.
Bergen has had a county vocational magnet school for decades, and now has several, because no municipality is large enough to have one on its own. I wouldn't call this preparation for county government. As has been repeated here, New Jersey's populace clings stubbornly and proudly to municipal government.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 05, 2015, 08:24:34 PM
Quote from: jwolfer on August 05, 2015, 08:15:52 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 04, 2015, 04:30:52 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 04, 2015, 11:58:22 AM
Quote from: jwolfer on August 03, 2015, 04:00:39 PM
In Florida (at least in northeast Florida. Maybe influence of consolidation of Duval County and Jacksonville) the county is the local government for many areas. And not just rural areas. Many incorporated cities don't really have much administrative function. They rely on County government for fire and police service. Really no reason to incorporate when municipal services are provided by County. Yes I know there are exceptions.
Schools are already county wide in Florida.
Maryland has very few incorporated cities. The counties seem to provide municipal functions
In NJ there are so many local governments and school districts, lots of patronage jobs to give out. It will take lots of political will to eliminate any of them. Although people do identify with County very strongly
In New Jersey they only identify county as a regional thing to let people know what part of Jersey you are from. I lived there and right near the Union/ Middlesex County Line, but we never referred to it as such. We would more call it the Clark/ Colonia Line and even NJ roads posts municipal borders for reference on its state highways over county lines. In fact county lines do not denote the change for a new county, but the township, borough, city, etc when approaching the county border.
Sales tax is the same per each county, and other than blue laws (which Bergen holds steadfast to till this very day) nothing really takes notice of the counties except that it is the regional identifier for New Jerseyans.
Yes and no. People do use their county to establish location, particularly because few people know 565 municipalities, but most know most of the 21 counties. But there is significant county government, including road, park, health care, law enforcement, and other services.
Town line signs at county lines do often denote the county in my experience.
It seems that NJ is preparing for County governments eventually, sort of like Maryland. There is County-wide school boards for vocational schools.
Bergen has had a county vocational magnet school for decades, and now has several, because no municipality is large enough to have one on its own. I wouldn't call this preparation for county government. As has been repeated here, New Jersey's populace clings stubbornly and proudly to municipal government.
There are County school boards already. New Jersey municipalities will not go easily
It's a bit odd to me to look at this from a practical perspective - I have never lived in a country that has a county government, and thus have no firsthand experience with being represented by or being provided regular service by any such thing.
Looking at a map it is rather apparent that Georgia and Kentucky both have too many counties, though. Tennessee and Indiana could probably stand to combine some as well.
Southern California, meanwhile, has too way few counties. The LA Metro parts of San Bernardino and Riverside counties need to be split from the rest, and you could easily make four counties out of Los Angeles county itself. For San Diego county I'd carve the city and its inner suburbs out from the rest.
Also, Virginia - cut the independent city crap and make them all officially part of a county.
Quote from: hbelkins on August 05, 2015, 03:00:20 PM
Kentucky definitely has too many counties. Most are too small. But Pike County is definitely too big, especially given its terrain, and should be split at least into two counties.
Campbell is too big as well. The southern half votes against the northern half, because they hate us.
Quote from: hbelkins on August 05, 2015, 03:00:20 PM
Kentucky definitely has too many counties. Most are too small. But Pike County is definitely too big, especially given its terrain, and should be split at least into two counties.
I also thought some of WV's counties are too big. Seems like you can drive forever in some of them and not make it to the county seat.
WV and eastern KY, along with southwestern VA, all suffer from the same issue. Which is the counties were drawn up by people who had never been there, working from in accurate maps and with a lack of appreciation for the topography. Which got compounded when coal was discovered and rural mountainous countiess that otherwise would have supported a few thousand hard scrabble farmers and lumberjacks each became populated with 10s of 1000s of people.
In WV the ones that stand out are Mingo, which has two major mountains without good roads that cut the county into thirds, with long drives between the parts; Kanawha, which has a southeastern rural coal producting part that is culturally and politically totally out-of-touch with the urban and suburban rest of the county; and Fayette, which, like Mingo, is made up of areas seperated by large mountains that cannot easily interact. While not too big, Lincoln is also a poorly drawn county, with the various parts much more tuned into the neighboring areas than one another.
Prairie states could use some county consolidation. They have a lot of tiny counties with very, very few people.
Yet other western states could probably break up their enormous counties now that lots of people have moved there.
Quote from: bandit957 on August 06, 2015, 10:57:09 AM
Campbell is too big as well. The southern half votes against the northern half, because they hate us.
Actually, I think Boone, Campbell and Kenton should all be merged into one county. I would suggest combining the three into two, but the Licking River is a natural boundary.
Quote from: SP Cook on August 06, 2015, 11:22:22 AM
In WV the ones that stand out are Mingo, which has two major mountains without good roads that cut the county into thirds, with long drives between the parts; Kanawha, which has a southeastern rural coal producting part that is culturally and politically totally out-of-touch with the urban and suburban rest of the county; and Fayette, which, like Mingo, is made up of areas seperated by large mountains that cannot easily interact. While not too big, Lincoln is also a poorly drawn county, with the various parts much more tuned into the neighboring areas than one another.
I always thought Wayne and Cabell counties were poorly drawn-up. Wayne is narrow and tall and includes some of the metro Huntington area, but not the city itself.
Quote from: jwolfer on August 05, 2015, 08:15:52 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 04, 2015, 04:30:52 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 04, 2015, 11:58:22 AM
Quote from: jwolfer on August 03, 2015, 04:00:39 PM
In Florida (at least in northeast Florida. Maybe influence of consolidation of Duval County and Jacksonville) the county is the local government for many areas. And not just rural areas. Many incorporated cities don't really have much administrative function. They rely on County government for fire and police service. Really no reason to incorporate when municipal services are provided by County. Yes I know there are exceptions.
Schools are already county wide in Florida.
Maryland has very few incorporated cities. The counties seem to provide municipal functions
In NJ there are so many local governments and school districts, lots of patronage jobs to give out. It will take lots of political will to eliminate any of them. Although people do identify with County very strongly
In New Jersey they only identify county as a regional thing to let people know what part of Jersey you are from. I lived there and right near the Union/ Middlesex County Line, but we never referred to it as such. We would more call it the Clark/ Colonia Line and even NJ roads posts municipal borders for reference on its state highways over county lines. In fact county lines do not denote the change for a new county, but the township, borough, city, etc when approaching the county border.
Sales tax is the same per each county, and other than blue laws (which Bergen holds steadfast to till this very day) nothing really takes notice of the counties except that it is the regional identifier for New Jerseyans.
Yes and no. People do use their county to establish location, particularly because few people know 565 municipalities, but most know most of the 21 counties. But there is significant county government, including road, park, health care, law enforcement, and other services.
Town line signs at county lines do often denote the county in my experience.
It seems that NJ is preparing for County governments eventually, sort of like Maryland. There is County-wide school boards for vocational schools.
There are also varying county-wide police forces, county-wide 911 systems, etc. But you're dealing with a state where few townships act on possible mergers. There's nothing even remotely in the offering of creating a true county-wide government.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 06, 2015, 02:14:46 PM
Quote from: jwolfer on August 05, 2015, 08:15:52 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 04, 2015, 04:30:52 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 04, 2015, 11:58:22 AM
Quote from: jwolfer on August 03, 2015, 04:00:39 PM
In Florida (at least in northeast Florida. Maybe influence of consolidation of Duval County and Jacksonville) the county is the local government for many areas. And not just rural areas. Many incorporated cities don't really have much administrative function. They rely on County government for fire and police service. Really no reason to incorporate when municipal services are provided by County. Yes I know there are exceptions.
Schools are already county wide in Florida.
Maryland has very few incorporated cities. The counties seem to provide municipal functions
In NJ there are so many local governments and school districts, lots of patronage jobs to give out. It will take lots of political will to eliminate any of them. Although people do identify with County very strongly
In New Jersey they only identify county as a regional thing to let people know what part of Jersey you are from. I lived there and right near the Union/ Middlesex County Line, but we never referred to it as such. We would more call it the Clark/ Colonia Line and even NJ roads posts municipal borders for reference on its state highways over county lines. In fact county lines do not denote the change for a new county, but the township, borough, city, etc when approaching the county border.
Sales tax is the same per each county, and other than blue laws (which Bergen holds steadfast to till this very day) nothing really takes notice of the counties except that it is the regional identifier for New Jerseyans.
Yes and no. People do use their county to establish location, particularly because few people know 565 municipalities, but most know most of the 21 counties. But there is significant county government, including road, park, health care, law enforcement, and other services.
Town line signs at county lines do often denote the county in my experience.
It seems that NJ is preparing for County governments eventually, sort of like Maryland. There is County-wide school boards for vocational schools.
There are also varying county-wide police forces, county-wide 911 systems, etc. But you're dealing with a state where few townships act on possible mergers. There's nothing even remotely in the offering of creating a true county-wide government.
It will take a long time and lots of political will
Quote from: jwolfer on August 06, 2015, 02:54:54 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 06, 2015, 02:14:46 PM
Quote from: jwolfer on August 05, 2015, 08:15:52 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 04, 2015, 04:30:52 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 04, 2015, 11:58:22 AM
Quote from: jwolfer on August 03, 2015, 04:00:39 PM
In Florida (at least in northeast Florida. Maybe influence of consolidation of Duval County and Jacksonville) the county is the local government for many areas. And not just rural areas. Many incorporated cities don't really have much administrative function. They rely on County government for fire and police service. Really no reason to incorporate when municipal services are provided by County. Yes I know there are exceptions.
Schools are already county wide in Florida.
Maryland has very few incorporated cities. The counties seem to provide municipal functions
In NJ there are so many local governments and school districts, lots of patronage jobs to give out. It will take lots of political will to eliminate any of them. Although people do identify with County very strongly
In New Jersey they only identify county as a regional thing to let people know what part of Jersey you are from. I lived there and right near the Union/ Middlesex County Line, but we never referred to it as such. We would more call it the Clark/ Colonia Line and even NJ roads posts municipal borders for reference on its state highways over county lines. In fact county lines do not denote the change for a new county, but the township, borough, city, etc when approaching the county border.
Sales tax is the same per each county, and other than blue laws (which Bergen holds steadfast to till this very day) nothing really takes notice of the counties except that it is the regional identifier for New Jerseyans.
Yes and no. People do use their county to establish location, particularly because few people know 565 municipalities, but most know most of the 21 counties. But there is significant county government, including road, park, health care, law enforcement, and other services.
Town line signs at county lines do often denote the county in my experience.
It seems that NJ is preparing for County governments eventually, sort of like Maryland. There is County-wide school boards for vocational schools.
There are also varying county-wide police forces, county-wide 911 systems, etc. But you're dealing with a state where few townships act on possible mergers. There's nothing even remotely in the offering of creating a true county-wide government.
It will take a long time and lots of political will
Only the long time is available at present.
There's a collective mental disconnect in New Jersey about the relation of microgovernment to high taxes. Everyone rails against the latter, while few want to face how much of the cause lies in the former. Fewer still are willing to relinquish it.
Massively urbanized state clinging to a small-town-y fiction.
There have been proposals over the years to merge Keweenaw County into Houghton County, Michigan. There is currently a proposal to rearrange some of the judgeships in the state, which if enacted as proposed could eventually mean the loss of Keweenaw County's district court judge or the consolidation of the probate courts for the two counties into a single probate district. Judicial circuits already cross county lines now, such that a murder trial out of Alger County had a change of venue to Schoolcraft County, and judge just transferred to his other courtroom at the other courthouse to continue hearing the case.
Quote from: hbelkins on August 05, 2015, 03:00:20 PM
Kentucky definitely has too many counties. Most are too small. But Pike County is definitely too big, especially given its terrain, and should be split at least into two counties.
I also thought some of WV's counties are too big. Seems like you can drive forever in some of them and not make it to the county seat.
The counties that are between 350-400 square miles seem to be the optimal size - ironically Jefferson and Shelby are about 1 square mile different in area, even though their populations differ by nearly 700,000. IIRC Pike County is about twice the size in terms of area.
Quote from: hbelkins on August 06, 2015, 02:08:32 PM
Quote from: bandit957 on August 06, 2015, 10:57:09 AM
Campbell is too big as well. The southern half votes against the northern half, because they hate us.
Actually, I think Boone, Campbell and Kenton should all be merged into one county.
I don't want to be ruled by the criminals and crazies who run Boone County, which is what would happen.
Quote from: bandit957 on August 06, 2015, 10:21:59 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on August 06, 2015, 02:08:32 PM
Quote from: bandit957 on August 06, 2015, 10:57:09 AM
Campbell is too big as well. The southern half votes against the northern half, because they hate us.
Actually, I think Boone, Campbell and Kenton should all be merged into one county.
I don't want to be ruled by the criminals and crazies who run Boone County, which is what would happen.
That would be a very weird merge. :wow:. But what would we even call this new county? Boontell County? :happy:
Quote from: empirestate on August 04, 2015, 03:09:09 PM
Apparently Arizona's laws came as the result of one of America's youngest counties, La Paz, being created before it was a viable entity. Were the previous laws exceptionally lax, or just average?
iPhone
Not sure, considering how few counties were formed in the years prior.
There is a law on the books in Tennessee that the county line must be at least eleven miles from the courthouse in order to form a new county. I can see a liberal from NY or some Northern state to banter about there being too many counties by looking at a map. However, what they do not realize is that the county has a much different relationship with populace in the south and the west than it does the north.
Contrary to what Avalanchez may think, a lot of the discussion about consolidating counties in some northern states is coming from conservatives, not liberals.
But his point about the county having a different relationship in the south is valid, as south of the Mason-Dixon the county is the basic/lowest-level unit of governance whereas New England and New York have towns and most other states from New Jersey to the Dakotas have townships as the basic/lowest-level unit of government.
Minnesota for the most part I think has a good county-population ratio. The glaring exception is St. Louis County, which is the second-largest in the US located east of the Mississippi and has two major population clusters located over an hour apart. However administrative functions are divided between Duluth and Iron Range cities so a person who needs to go to court for a crime in Hibbing would not have to go to Duluth to appear.
I definitely believe some counties should be consolidated. How does Loving County, TX, survive on less than 100 people?
Quote from: hbelkins on August 06, 2015, 02:08:32 PM
I always thought Wayne and Cabell counties were poorly drawn-up. Wayne is narrow and tall and includes some of the metro Huntington area, but not the city itself.
Actually a small part of the city is in Wayne County. The neighborhood of Westmoreland, maybe 5% of the city's population. Causes all sorts of problems, such as the cops have to deal with the Wayne courts, located 15 miles of not great road south in Wayne, and not the Cabell ones, which are in the city, just up the street.
But, yeah, remember Huntington did not even exist, either as a city or even as a place people lived, when the counties were drawn. It was all marshland. So you end up with Wayne, the northern part of which is very urban or suburban, and the southern part is typical Appalachian coal country. Very dissimilar regions.
OT, people in the town of Wayne are stereotypically known for their strong accents and would say "Out Wayne" when asked where they lived if they worked in Huntington, to distinguish the town from the county. They have those fake Euro circles that read "OW" and people that live past the town have "WOW" for "Way Out Wayne".
Quote from: froggie on August 07, 2015, 12:20:27 AM
Contrary to what Avalanchez may think, a lot of the discussion about consolidating counties in some northern states is coming from conservatives, not liberals.
That certainly seems to be the case in upstate New York, for example, where there has been a recent rash of village dissolutions in rural areas in the hopes of reducing the layers of government and taxation.
QuoteBut his point about the county having a different relationship in the south is valid, as south of the Mason-Dixon the county is the basic/lowest-level unit of governance whereas New England and New York have towns and most other states from New Jersey to the Dakotas have townships as the basic/lowest-level unit of government.
This is the point I was trying to make earlier comparing Georgia and Connecticut. Georgia seems to be divided into counties, as its basic level of governance, to about the same proportional extent as Connecticut is divided into towns. It looks to me as though, while philosophies will differ on how and why to streamline local governments, there is be an optimal extent of size, in terms of both area and population, at which local government entities tend to feel most comfortable.
I like the way Maryland does its counties. The counties (at least the ones that I'm familiar with in the central part of the state) seem to be about the right size. A drive from one end to the other is still a local trip and can be done in about an hour. There are 23 counties, and Baltimore is considered an independent city. (Baltimore City can be considered a separate county for most purposes, separate from suburban Baltimore County.)
Another positive is with the county being the key form of local government, you don't have too many levels of government. There are only 24 school districts, for instance.
Recently, there was an article about the county executive in PG County wanting to move the county seat from Upper Marlboro, which is in the southeastern part of the county to Largo, which is central, and transit-accessible as most of the population in PG County is close to DC and may be transit reliant.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on August 06, 2015, 10:56:53 PM
I can see a liberal from NY or some Northern state to banter about there being too many counties by looking at a map.
That's JUST LIKE us northern-state liberals–just ignorantly banter on like nobody else has any other valid way of doing things. We love that! You nailed us perfectly.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 07, 2015, 11:30:34 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on August 06, 2015, 10:56:53 PM
I can see a liberal from NY or some Northern state to banter about there being too many counties by looking at a map.
That's JUST LIKE us northern-state liberals–just ignorantly banter on like nobody else has any other valid way of doing things. We love that! You nailed us perfectly.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 07, 2015, 11:30:34 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on August 06, 2015, 10:56:53 PM
I can see a liberal from NY or some Northern state to banter about there being too many counties by looking at a map.
That's JUST LIKE us northern-state liberals–just ignorantly banter on like nobody else has any other valid way of doing things. We love that! You nailed us perfectly.
Never mind that some of us hold onto our local entities as strongly as anyone else.
Quote from: golden eagle on August 07, 2015, 01:23:59 AM
I definitely believe some counties should be consolidated. How does Loving County, TX, survive on less than 100 people?
About 20 years ago as a kid, I read an article in Reader's Digest about Loving County, TX. "The Loneliest County". Then, just this past week, I saw a pickup truck driving through Washington DC marked for the Loving County Sheriff's Office.
Quote from: Rothman on August 07, 2015, 11:40:39 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 07, 2015, 11:30:34 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on August 06, 2015, 10:56:53 PM
I can see a liberal from NY or some Northern state to banter about there being too many counties by looking at a map.
That's JUST LIKE us northern-state liberals–just ignorantly banter on like nobody else has any other valid way of doing things. We love that! You nailed us perfectly.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 07, 2015, 11:30:34 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on August 06, 2015, 10:56:53 PM
I can see a liberal from NY or some Northern state to banter about there being too many counties by looking at a map.
That's JUST LIKE us northern-state liberals–just ignorantly banter on like nobody else has any other valid way of doing things. We love that! You nailed us perfectly.
Never mind that some of us hold onto our local entities as strongly as anyone else.
What strikes me as very different from my understanding is the system of townships west of the Appalachians. I follow the theory and all, but it is so dramatically different from the 567 irregular municipalities I grew up with in (a conservative, anti-any-change part of) New Jersey that I still scratch my head about it, even though it is a simpler, more logical setup in many ways.
Quote from: Rothman on August 07, 2015, 11:40:39 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 07, 2015, 11:30:34 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on August 06, 2015, 10:56:53 PM
I can see a liberal from NY or some Northern state to banter about there being too many counties by looking at a map.
That's JUST LIKE us northern-state liberals–just ignorantly banter on like nobody else has any other valid way of doing things. We love that! You nailed us perfectly.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 07, 2015, 11:30:34 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on August 06, 2015, 10:56:53 PM
I can see a liberal from NY or some Northern state to banter about there being too many counties by looking at a map.
That's JUST LIKE us northern-state liberals–just ignorantly banter on like nobody else has any other valid way of doing things. We love that! You nailed us perfectly.
Never mind that some of us hold onto our local entities as strongly as anyone else.
And in some densely-populated areas, new ones are being created, in contrast to the trend toward eliminating them in rural areas.
Now I say densely-populated areas, but of course they're suburban, not urban. So I can't tell whether these movements are left- or right-inspired (assuming there's any correlation there at all).
I can say that one reason for incorporating new local governments is to legitimize the extra layers of taxation that already exist in some of these areas, in the form of special districts.
iPhone
Quote from: froggie on August 07, 2015, 12:20:27 AM
Contrary to what Avalanchez may think, a lot of the discussion about consolidating counties in some northern states is coming from conservatives, not liberals.
In Arizona for Maricopa County it was the opposite; the split of the East Valley was proposed by former state Senator Russell Pearce, an ultra-conservative.
One dilemma if this were to happen: would Maricopa County keep Sherriff Joe Arpaio, or would he become the Sherriff of the newly created East Valley county? The East Valley is probably where Arpaio draws his greatest support.
Quote from: empirestate on August 07, 2015, 09:16:35 AM
QuoteBut his point about the county having a different relationship in the south is valid, as south of the Mason-Dixon the county is the basic/lowest-level unit of governance whereas New England and New York have towns and most other states from New Jersey to the Dakotas have townships as the basic/lowest-level unit of government.
This is the point I was trying to make earlier comparing Georgia and Connecticut. Georgia seems to be divided into counties, as its basic level of governance, to about the same proportional extent as Connecticut is divided into towns. It looks to me as though, while philosophies will differ on how and why to streamline local governments, there is be an optimal extent of size, in terms of both area and population, at which local government entities tend to feel most comfortable.
Now I don't know about North Dakota, but South Dakota, especially West River, doesn't demarcate townships very well. We're more "county-city" type than township, I think.
Quote from: mrsman on August 07, 2015, 11:06:45 AM
I like the way Maryland does its counties. The counties (at least the ones that I'm familiar with in the central part of the state) seem to be about the right size. A drive from one end to the other is still a local trip and can be done in about an hour. There are 23 counties, and Baltimore is considered an independent city. (Baltimore City can be considered a separate county for most purposes, separate from suburban Baltimore County.)
Baltimore City is
entirely independent of Baltimore County in terms of governance - just like (all) cities in Virginia are independent of adjoining counties.
In theory, other Maryland cities could become "independent," though it has not happened so far (Annapolis has made threats in the past about seceding from Anne Arundel County and becoming independent, but at least for now, it is part of the county, and Annapolis is Anne Arundel's county seat in addition to the state capitol).
The Baltimore City water utility does supply water service to a fairly large area of the county, but that's because the city set-up a drinking water supply system long before the county gave it much thought (and much of the water comes from city-owned reservoirs located in Baltimore County).
Quote from: mrsman on August 07, 2015, 11:06:45 AM
Another positive is with the county being the key form of local government, you don't have too many levels of government. There are only 24 school districts, for instance.
Recently, there was an article about the county executive in PG County wanting to move the county seat from Upper Marlboro, which is in the southeastern part of the county to Largo, which is central, and transit-accessible as most of the population in PG County is close to DC and may be transit reliant.
I generally prefer the "southern" approach to local government, which means that counties are frequently the lowest level of local government, and some places have municipal government, but there are usually very large areas that have been left unincorporated (unlike Pennsylvania, where even the most rural of places is part of a township or borough, and some of those municipalities have
very small populations).
Regarding Prince George's County, Upper Marlboro has been the county seat since
long before anyone heard of Washington (the general, the president or the city). I believe it was designated the county seat not long after the county was established in 1696.
I'm in one of few counties that has 2 county seats. Campbell County has both Newport and Alexandria as a county seat, and it has a courthouse in each location. But some maps and reference books list only one or the other, not both. I never go to the Alexandria courthouse - always Newport.
A few years ago, some extremists sued to try to have the Newport courthouse closed - for no apparent reason. They lost the case, and the judge ruled that the county has 2 seats.
Quote from: bandit957 on August 08, 2015, 12:53:30 PM
I'm in one of few counties that has 2 county seats. Campbell County has both Newport and Alexandria as a county seat, and it has a courthouse in each location. But some maps and reference books list only one or the other, not both. I never go to the Alexandria courthouse - always Newport.
A few years ago, some extremists sued to try to have the Newport courthouse closed - for no apparent reason. They lost the case, and the judge ruled that the county has 2 seats.
I would think that wanting one seat of government falls short of extremism.
We have multiple courthouses, but most of our counties have no real existence beyond a court system, so most people never notice.
Pike County has a satellite courthouse in the Belfry/South Williamson area, but it doesn't qualify as two county seats. Officially, Alexandria is listed as the county seat of Campbell County.
Auxiliary courthouses aren't that uncommon. Kent County, Michigan, has multiple judicial districts, each with its own courthouse. Within the county are the 59th District (courthouses in Walker and Grandville), the 61st District (Grand Rapids) 62-A District (Wyoming), 62-B (Kentwood) and 63rd District (the rest of the county with a courthouse in Grand Rapids Township). The county seat though is still Grand Rapids.
Marquette County has a second courthouse in Ishpeming, and Marquette has the primary one as the county seat.
I can definitely say Nebraska has too many. I even remember seeing an article in the Omaha World-Herald once about how Nebraska should consolidate to 28 counties, from 93. The thing about county consolidation is how do they decide which city should get the courthouse. Just to cite one example, suppose they consolidated Johnson, Nemaha, Pawnee and Richardson Counties, the 4 in Nebraska's southeast corner. Who wants to be the one who kills off the city of Auburn (or, alternately, Falls City)? It seems to me if you take away the county government, more than just the county government goes away.
Quote from: hbelkins on August 08, 2015, 02:45:17 PM
Pike County has a satellite courthouse in the Belfry/South Williamson area, but it doesn't qualify as two county seats. Officially, Alexandria is listed as the county seat of Campbell County.
Newport is usually considered the main courthouse. Also, some editions of the World Almanac listed only Newport as the county seat. I don't know if it's still listed like that. Wikipedia lists both county seats.
Also, Newport makes much more sense as a county seat. To put all the county services in Alexandria would force people in the cities to travel 15 miles out of town just to get their business done.
Quote from: bandit957 on August 09, 2015, 01:04:39 PM
Also, Newport makes much more sense as a county seat. To put all the county services in Alexandria would force people in the cities to travel 15 miles out of town just to get their business done.
Especially since Newport is at a better spot and higher population than Alexandria. Kenton County has two county seats too. Covington and Independence. What other instances of dual county seats exist?
Quote from: iBallasticwolf2 on August 09, 2015, 01:28:18 PM
Quote from: bandit957 on August 09, 2015, 01:04:39 PM
Also, Newport makes much more sense as a county seat. To put all the county services in Alexandria would force people in the cities to travel 15 miles out of town just to get their business done.
Especially since Newport is at a better spot and higher population than Alexandria. Kenton County has two county seats too. Covington and Independence. What other instances of dual county seats exist?
No others in Kentucky, but I think Arkansas and Mississippi have some, and I know Iowa has one.
Quote from: bandit957 on August 09, 2015, 02:04:41 PM
Quote from: iBallasticwolf2 on August 09, 2015, 01:28:18 PM
Quote from: bandit957 on August 09, 2015, 01:04:39 PM
Also, Newport makes much more sense as a county seat. To put all the county services in Alexandria would force people in the cities to travel 15 miles out of town just to get their business done.
Especially since Newport is at a better spot and higher population than Alexandria. Kenton County has two county seats too. Covington and Independence. What other instances of dual county seats exist?
No others in Kentucky, but I think Arkansas and Mississippi have some, and I know Iowa has one.
Here's the Wikipedia list of counties with multiple seats.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_seat#U.S._counties_with_more_than_one_county_seat
Looks like Alabama, New York, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Missouri, and Vermont also have at least one dual seat county. Arkansas, Mississippi, and Iowa as you listed also have at least 1 dual seat county. Arkansas seems to be the state with the most.
Quote from: hbelkins on August 08, 2015, 02:45:17 PM
Pike County has a satellite courthouse in the Belfry/South Williamson area.
You think that is a remnant of the era before Corridor G was finished? It used to be, like, an hour over bad road to Pikeville. Now its just a few minutes of safe and fast driving on a good road.
I'm for division of Riverside and San Bernardino counties (SB is the nation's largest county in size, about 20,000 sq. mi. in area), have SB/Northern LA/Eastern Kern county form "Mojave county", and the Palm Springs area become "Desert county". County seats will be Lancaster or Palmdale in what's now L.A. county or Victorville, depending on where is most convenient, and either Palm Springs, Indio or Coachella for the other. Then CA will have 2 more counties to its 58, and So CA's counties were created in a time there was sparse populations so the boundaries have wider expenses of area, like Riv's goes 200 miles to AZ and so does SB, which also touches NV.
Quote from: SP Cook on August 09, 2015, 02:33:34 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on August 08, 2015, 02:45:17 PM
Pike County has a satellite courthouse in the Belfry/South Williamson area.
You think that is a remnant of the era before Corridor G was finished? It used to be, like, an hour over bad road to Pikeville. Now its just a few minutes of safe and fast driving on a good road.
Highly possible. I remember it being there when the only four-lane sections were on either end between Pikeville and the state line.
There may also be a satellite courthouse at Phelps, but I'm not positive.
Kansas has 105 counties. In 2009, a Democrat from Wyandotte County introduced a no-hoper bill to reduce the county count to 13:
http://wichitaliberty.org/kansas-government/steineger-introduces-kansas-county-consolidation-bill/
A year after this bill was introduced, Sam Brownback was elected governor, and one of his first signature measures was an employment subsidy program designed to curb rural depopulation, which is the main threat to the continued viability of the existing counties in western Kansas. While there may be technocratic arguments in favor of county consolidation, policy is moving entirely in the opposite direction.
This is helped by the truly horrible quality of service the state provides in the major urban areas. As an example, in the rural counties driver license renewal is handled in the county courthouses, so rural residents effectively have one driver's license bureau for as few as 1,300 people. In Sedgwick County, which has a population just under 500,000, there are just two driver licensing bureaus, the second of which opened last year in Derby after years of complaints about the long waits at the original bureau in the moribund Twin Lakes shopping center at 21st and Amidon. (Twin Lakes is just 2.6 miles from my house, per Google Maps. The last time I had to renew my driver's license, I considered driving all the way to Wellington--40 miles--to have it done at the Sumner County courthouse. In the end I drove 20 miles to the bureau in Andover, which is in Butler County but abuts the Sedgwick County line, and did it there. Others have driven 30 miles to Newton only to be hit with "convenience fees" for being Wichita residents despite the fact that driver licensing is a statewide operation.)
In Kansas, counties have nothing to do with education and the vast majority of school districts are not coterminous with counties. There are a total of 293 school districts, which are the result of several developments since 1950: the abolition of ecclesiastical school districts (previously there were schools attached to churches that had standing as public schools, but this was eventually ruled contrary to the First Amendment), unification of elementary and high school districts, and forced consolidation of too-small school districts. The latter two were mandated by the Kansas Legislature and carried out under the supervision of Adel F. Throckmorton, a dirigiste Republican appointee who had a long incumbency as the state Superintendent of Public Instruction.
As a result of these measures, which were originally pushed for the sake of efficiency, rural Kansas is now full of small towns where the folk memory is of the closure of the local high school touching off an extended period of decline. It is partly for this reason that although both a Republican governor and a Republican legislature believe the state is spending far too much on non-classroom expenses for K-12 education, further consolidation of school districts is not even on the table.
Thirteen counties for Kansas? I can't imagine the geographical nightmare that would be, especially in the rural parts of the state.
Here is the bill, which lays out the consolidation plan:
http://www.kansas.gov/government/legislative/bills/2010/198.pdf
I sketched it out in CorelDRAW, using USGS basemapping borrowed via the Wikipedia page on Kansas counties, and it is actually not an implausible scheme. It does result in some very large counties outside northeastern Kansas. However, with the exception of the middle county against the Nebraska border, no county is more than 150 miles wide in any direction. All counties have a substantially convex shape. The plan narrows the per-county population range significantly, from about 2,000-500,000 to about 30,000-700,000.
It doesn't matter, anyway: in Kansas it will never be the aim of either the Republicans or the Democrats to search for efficiency savings in local government in western Kansas (where all of the underpopulated counties are) because further falls in the population would be the almost inevitable result. Republicans don't want to give up western Kansas because it is their most reliable voting bloc, and Democrats are uncomfortable with job losses on economic grounds.