Had some out of state visitors recently, and they were a little surprised when, at a red light, a few motorcyclists were weaving through the traffic, and one biker was sitting between my car and the car in the lane next to me.
They were visiting from Oregon, and said they never see people on motorcycles do that up there. Not sure if that's because it's not legal in Oregon, or if people up there just don't feel the need to do it as much because their traffic probably isn't as bad as LA/OC.
In your state, are motorcyclists allowed to ride between cars? Is this just a California thing, for I think it's really the only place I've observed it, though maybe I've seen it elsewhere, but just haven't paid it much attention until now.
It is just a California thing. Lane splitting is illegal here in Illinois and much, if not all the Midwest. It's a very dangerous thing to do, IMHO.
Quote from: Brandon on September 01, 2015, 01:55:01 PM
It's a very dangerous thing to do, IMHO.
Beats getting rear-ended by an inattentive motorist, IMHO.
I don't see motorcyclists lane split very often up here near Seattle (because it's illegal) but cyclists do it a lot.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 01, 2015, 03:22:15 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 01, 2015, 01:55:01 PM
It's a very dangerous thing to do, IMHO.
Beats getting rear-ended by an inattentive motorist, IMHO.
And it winds up with the motorcyclist being sideswiped and becoming a road pancake. Stay in your fricking lane, not between them.
Quote from: Brandon on September 01, 2015, 03:23:30 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 01, 2015, 03:22:15 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 01, 2015, 01:55:01 PM
It's a very dangerous thing to do, IMHO.
Beats getting rear-ended by an inattentive motorist, IMHO.
And it winds up with the motorcyclist being sideswiped and becoming a road pancake. Stay in your fricking lane, not between them.
At least in the US, lane-splitting is only allowed at slower speeds, giving most motorcyclists time to react to a vehicle changing or about to change lanes. On the other hand, you can't prepare to be rear-ended...it just sort of happens, and there's no minor fender-bender for a motorcyclist.
Guess I'm just used to it, as being at a red light and having a motorcycle come up between myself and another car just seems normal.
Usually the cycles I see are the smaller "crotch rocket" kind of bikes. I don't see larger Harley type motorcycles weaving between as much.
It's an LA/CA thing. When I was out in LA, I saw it during heavy traffic jams. Almost as an enticement for someone to get a motorcycle and ditch the car. Like having the HOV lane open to hybrids, etc.
As for anywhere else: no. I haven't even seen anyone do it in another state, let alone know if it's legal or not.
I saw two crotch rockets passing a truck on the paved shoulder in a curve on northbound KY 15 between Hazard and Jackson today. Too bad there wasn't a disabled vehicle parked there for them to slam into.
Lane-splitting is stupid and dangerous and should be illegal everywhere.
I just happened to see someone doing it today on 295 in Jersey. He was going quite slow. I never even heard him until he was going past me. Sure enough, just a few cars ahead a car switched lanes just in front of the bike.
Lane splitting is only legal and common in CA. It really is unnerving for people from out of state.
Technically the law in CA is that two vehicles can share a lane, which lets motorcycles drive between lanes by sharing one lane or the other and changing lanes repeatedly.
I've seen lane-splitting a couple of times up here in NY -- even on Central Ave in Albany. Not sure if it's legal here or not (I thought it actually may be, but it looks like it isn't).
Quote from: hbelkins on September 01, 2015, 09:02:44 PM
I saw two crotch rockets passing a truck on the paved shoulder in a curve on northbound KY 15 between Hazard and Jackson today.
That's not lane splitting.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 01, 2015, 09:02:44 PM
Lane-splitting is stupid and dangerous and should be illegal everywhere.
Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinions Mr Elkins, but the studies don't show lane splitting to be dangerous. There is a perception that it's dangerous, of course, but that doesn't mean that it
is dangerous.
Quote from: realjd on September 01, 2015, 09:42:48 PM
Lane splitting is only legal and common in CA. It really is unnerving for people from out of state.
Bingo. People are scared by bikes riding by them. It's unnerving, therefore most people oppose it, without a shred of evidence to backup their opposition, other than "it's scary!"
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 01, 2015, 09:05:42 PM
Sure enough, just a few cars ahead a car switched lanes just in front of the bike.
Did they collide?
Because I haven't made it clear so far, I don't advocate lane splitting at speeds above about 30 miles an hour, give or take.
Colorado has its fair share of lane squeezers. Usually it ends poorly. This happened today:
http://gazette.com/motorcyclist-killed-trying-to-squeeze-between-trucks-on-i-25/article/1558469 (http://gazette.com/motorcyclist-killed-trying-to-squeeze-between-trucks-on-i-25/article/1558469)
It's illegal here. About the only times I see it done are (a) motorcyclists slowly proceeding between lines of stopped traffic or (b) aggressive motorcyclists who are ignoring multiple other laws as well and often doing things like popping wheelies on the Interstate.
Quote from: r-dub on September 02, 2015, 12:10:34 AM
Colorado has its fair share of lane squeezers. Usually it ends poorly. This happened today:
http://gazette.com/motorcyclist-killed-trying-to-squeeze-between-trucks-on-i-25/article/1558469 (http://gazette.com/motorcyclist-killed-trying-to-squeeze-between-trucks-on-i-25/article/1558469)
Does it "usually end poorly"? I would say otherwise.
Quote from: sdmichael on September 02, 2015, 10:24:45 AM
Quote from: r-dub on September 02, 2015, 12:10:34 AM
Colorado has its fair share of lane squeezers. Usually it ends poorly. This happened today:
http://gazette.com/motorcyclist-killed-trying-to-squeeze-between-trucks-on-i-25/article/1558469 (http://gazette.com/motorcyclist-killed-trying-to-squeeze-between-trucks-on-i-25/article/1558469)
Does it "usually end poorly"? I would say otherwise.
It's still rude and dangerous. I'm very glad it's illegal here.
Quote from: Brandon on September 02, 2015, 11:30:58 AM
Quote from: sdmichael on September 02, 2015, 10:24:45 AM
Quote from: r-dub on September 02, 2015, 12:10:34 AM
Colorado has its fair share of lane squeezers. Usually it ends poorly. This happened today:
http://gazette.com/motorcyclist-killed-trying-to-squeeze-between-trucks-on-i-25/article/1558469 (http://gazette.com/motorcyclist-killed-trying-to-squeeze-between-trucks-on-i-25/article/1558469)
Does it "usually end poorly"? I would say otherwise.
It's still rude and dangerous. I'm very glad it's illegal here.
Agreed. Although, I'm more concerned about one of them putting a nice long scratch in the side of my car or taking out my side mirror if/when they misjudge the size of the gap vs. the width of their handlebars. Admittedly, it's more of a concern with bicyclists rather than motorcyclists, as the former seem to have poorer judgment in their abilities and try to squeeze in tighter spots. Bicyclists also seem to be less aware of vehicle's blind spots and thus seem to hide there. Motorcyclists you at least can hear.
Lane splitting seems like a way of making it difficult to pass slowpoke motorcyclists on roads with traffic lights. I also wonder what happens if a motorist needs to swerve for some reason (perhaps the car in front having engine trouble, for example) and is stuck with a motor cycle next to them. And what if they scratch your paint by misjudging the space? Plus, I like driving because it gives me privacy, not to have a biker sandwiched right next to my window.
Whatever one's opinion on lane splitting, I have to believe that CA's permission of lane-splitting does not extend to the space between the carpool lane and the regular lanes, which I've frequently seen. As I recall, the wording of CA's law refers to lane striping, such that the carpool lane is out of bounds.
iPhone
Quote from: empirestate on September 02, 2015, 01:51:03 PM
Whatever one's opinion on lane splitting, I have to believe that CA's permission of lane-splitting does not extend to the space between the carpool lane and the regular lanes, which I've frequently seen. As I recall, the wording of CA's law refers to lane striping, such that the carpool lane is out of bounds.
Like many states, California allows motorcycles to use HOV lanes, so such is permitted. Also, do consider how helpful that particular buffer is: cars cannot cross it (legally), and it's wide. Though, not all HOV lanes are marked like this.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetransitcoalition.us%2FPictures%2Ffig1.jpg&hash=c3c60e1085920fc52590aa5203aab7313ba2bb3b)
Quote from: Brandon on September 02, 2015, 11:30:58 AM
It's still rude and dangerous.
It's actually safer, but how exactly is it rude?
Quote from: jakeroot on September 02, 2015, 03:05:18 PM
It's actually safer, but how exactly is it rude?
How is it safer? Are motorcyclists getting hit while sitting in normal traffic, but never having issues while line skipping?
I'll only consider it rude if done in a state or a location where it's illegal.
Rudeness can be in the eye of the beholder. Remember, pertaining to another discussion, some people think it's rude if they're not waved out, even though it's illegal to actually do so.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 02, 2015, 03:05:18 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 02, 2015, 11:30:58 AM
It's still rude and dangerous.
It's actually safer, but how exactly is it rude?
Because it could be considered to be like someone skipping ahead of you in line at worst, sloppy passing procedure at best.
Example: Riding the line is illegal in Wisconsin. While waiting for the Merrimac Ferry, I've seen motorcyclists ride the line and skip ahead of the cars queued for the ferry (a line that can be upwards of 25 minutes long during tourist season). This usually happens while the ferry is en-route (the operator is the only one in the vicinity with any kind of authority).
This subject sounds like if you played GTA 4, found a motorcycle, and dodged the tolls and 1 star on the East Borough Bridge.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 02, 2015, 03:12:33 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 02, 2015, 03:05:18 PM
It's actually safer, but how exactly is it rude?
How is it safer? Are motorcyclists getting hit while sitting in normal traffic, but never having issues while line skipping?
Not necessarily (though I would imagine, yes, though not "never"). But, motorcyclists are more likely to be able to see a car changing lanes than a car about to rear-end them. And if a motorcyclist is riding between lanes, the only thing that could potentially hit them from the rear are other motorcyclists. Beyond that, it
should be obvious that, if/when a car hits a motorcyclist, the motorcyclist is more likely to suffer severe injuries.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 02, 2015, 03:12:33 PM
Rudeness can be in the eye of the beholder.
My assumption was that Brandon considers lane splitting to be rude because he is jealous of them.
Quote from: DaBigE on September 02, 2015, 03:47:25 PM
Because it could be considered to be like someone skipping ahead of you in line at worst, sloppy passing procedure at best.
Completely reasonable, and I can see where you're coming from. But...
Quote from: DaBigE on September 02, 2015, 03:47:25 PM
Example: Riding the line is illegal in Wisconsin. While waiting for the Merrimac Ferry, I've seen motorcyclists ride the line and skip ahead of the cars queued for the ferry (a line that can be upwards of 25 minutes long during tourist season). This usually happens while the ferry is en-route (the operator is the only one in the vicinity with any kind of authority).
Less cars and more bikes = shorter wait time. I don't agree with them skipping ahead, but for everyone else behind them, one less car to load is one less car in their way (unless the ferry operator loads them into the same space as a car, which would be silly and should be re-thought). As jeffandnicole said, rudeness can be in the eye of the beholder, but as far as I'm concerned,
they're doing us a favor by not adding to the congestion.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 02, 2015, 04:27:16 PM
My assumption was that Brandon considers lane splitting to be rude because he is jealous of them.
Hardly. It is line jumping. Now, maybe line jumping is acceptable behavior on the West Coast, but it isn't in the Midwest. It's the same reason assholes (usually with Illinois plates from that bastion of rudeness, Chicago) that use the lane being closed until its very end and then try to bull their way in are considered rude.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 02, 2015, 12:02:10 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 01, 2015, 09:02:44 PM
I saw two crotch rockets passing a truck on the paved shoulder in a curve on northbound KY 15 between Hazard and Jackson today.
That's not lane splitting.
No, but it's the same mentality.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 02, 2015, 04:27:16 PM
Quote from: DaBigE on September 02, 2015, 03:47:25 PM
Because it could be considered to be like someone skipping ahead of you in line at worst, sloppy passing procedure at best.
Completely reasonable, and I can see where you're coming from. But...
Quote from: DaBigE on September 02, 2015, 03:47:25 PM
Example: Riding the line is illegal in Wisconsin. While waiting for the Merrimac Ferry, I've seen motorcyclists ride the line and skip ahead of the cars queued for the ferry (a line that can be upwards of 25 minutes long during tourist season). This usually happens while the ferry is en-route (the operator is the only one in the vicinity with any kind of authority).
Less cars and more bikes = shorter wait time. I don't agree with them skipping ahead, but for everyone else behind them, one less car to load is one less car in their way (unless the ferry operator loads them into the same space as a car, which would be silly and should be re-thought). As jeffandnicole said, rudeness can be in the eye of the beholder, but as far as I'm concerned, they're doing us a favor by not adding to the congestion.
There's a median narrow of sorts between two of the three vehicle lanes where the motorcycles get parked for the trip across the river, so the same number of cars get through regardless of the presence of motorcycles. It's more the principle of the matter, yes, mixed with a bit of jealousy. If I drive up in my car and have to wait 20 minutes, the motorcycle(s) that were behind me on the highway should have to wait 20 minutes as well.
Quote from: Brandon on September 02, 2015, 04:39:02 PM
Hardly. It is line jumping. Now, maybe line jumping is acceptable behavior on the West Coast, but it isn't in the Midwest.
I completely understand that, but I don't agree. Lane splitting is riding where cars cannot be, therefore (outside of lanes merging into one another), there isn't anything to jump ahead of. Where the motorcyclist is riding is a place where you cannot be. You can be angry, fine, but it's no different than a pedestrian or cyclist making quicker progress due to heavy traffic.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 02, 2015, 05:09:50 PM
No, but it's the same mentality.
Yes, they are both technically overtaking maneuvers. But lane splitting is not about being able to overtake in the shoulder way over the speed limit. I don't want to legalize that. What I do want to legalize is riding between two cars at a reasonable, safe speed where the danger of being rear-ended is almost completely absent. And yes, the danger of being side-swiped is still there, of course, but at least the rider might have a chance to see it coming, unlike a car from the rear.
Quote from: DaBigE on September 02, 2015, 05:20:16 PM
There's a median narrow of sorts between two of the three vehicle lanes where the motorcycles get parked for the trip across the river, so the same number of cars get through regardless of the presence of motorcycles. It's more the principle of the matter, yes, mixed with a bit of jealousy. If I drive up in my car and have to wait 20 minutes, the motorcycle(s) that were behind me on the highway should have to wait 20 minutes as well.
As a principle matter, as with Brandon above, I can absolutely see where you're coming from.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 02, 2015, 03:05:18 PM
Quote from: empirestate on September 02, 2015, 01:51:03 PM
Whatever one's opinion on lane splitting, I have to believe that CA's permission of lane-splitting does not extend to the space between the carpool lane and the regular lanes, which I've frequently seen. As I recall, the wording of CA's law refers to lane striping, such that the carpool lane is out of bounds.
Like many states, California allows motorcycles to use HOV lanes, so such is permitted. Also, do consider how helpful that particular buffer is: cars cannot cross it (legally), and it's wide. Though, not all HOV lanes are marked like this.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetransitcoalition.us%2FPictures%2Ffig1.jpg&hash=c3c60e1085920fc52590aa5203aab7313ba2bb3b)
The buffer is exactly the issue; surely, motorcycles may not cross it either. But they necessarily do so in order to successfully lane-split alongside most cars or trucks.
Now, helpful? Sure, there's no doubt it's a more convenient, and likely safer, place to lane split. But legal? Not so far as I'm aware.
iPhone
Quote from: empirestate on September 02, 2015, 06:36:18 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 02, 2015, 03:05:18 PM
Like many states, California allows motorcycles to use HOV lanes, so such is permitted. Also, do consider how helpful that particular buffer is: cars cannot cross it (legally), and it's wide. Though, not all HOV lanes are marked like this.
The buffer is exactly the issue; surely, motorcycles may not cross it either. But they necessarily do so in order to successfully lane-split alongside most cars or trucks.
Now, helpful? Sure, there's no doubt it's a more convenient, and likely safer, place to lane split. But legal? Not so far as I'm aware.
Lane-splitting is simply a tolerated practice in California. I don't believe there are any laws that specifically sanction riding between lanes, it's just not outright illegal. So, in this case, it's probably not legal, but it's tolerated. Then again, CHP writes tickets for those who cross from one lane into the other. As long as the bike doesn't cross completely into the other lane, legally they should be okay.
Quote from: empirestate on September 02, 2015, 01:51:03 PM
Whatever one's opinion on lane splitting, I have to believe that CA's permission of lane-splitting does not extend to the space between the carpool lane and the regular lanes, which I've frequently seen. As I recall, the wording of CA's law refers to lane striping, such that the carpool lane is out of bounds.
iPhone
There is no law regarding "lane splitting" in California. It just isn't illegal, something that may change in the future with an actual law stating it is legal. The space between the HOV and main lanes, when bounded by a double yellow line (or two sets) is illegal to cross regardless of the vehicle.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 02, 2015, 05:09:50 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 02, 2015, 12:02:10 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 01, 2015, 09:02:44 PM
I saw two crotch rockets passing a truck on the paved shoulder in a curve on northbound KY 15 between Hazard and Jackson today.
That's not lane splitting.
No, but it's the same mentality.
How exactly is that the "same mentality"? Driving on the shoulder is illegal most anywhere. Lane splitting, in the United States, is only legal in California. Doing it in a safer manner, as in slower and with caution, is far safer than the alternative of staying in traffic. I don't split lanes with the pretense that I'm somehow reducing traffic congestion. I do it because I can, feel comfortable doing it, and it saves me time. It isn't "cutting ahead". No one is getting cut off nor delayed as a result of my actions. That would be rude.
Quote from: Brandon on September 02, 2015, 04:39:02 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 02, 2015, 04:27:16 PM
My assumption was that Brandon considers lane splitting to be rude because he is jealous of them.
Hardly. It is line jumping. Now, maybe line jumping is acceptable behavior on the West Coast, but it isn't in the Midwest. It's the same reason assholes (usually with Illinois plates from that bastion of rudeness, Chicago) that use the lane being closed until its very end and then try to bull their way in are considered rude.
People who consider it rude to use a lane that's open to traffic need to learn how to drive. Nobody gets to say arbitrarily "this point x distance short of the end of that lane is the merge point and thou shalt not go past it." If that were the rule, there would be umpteen thousand different opinions on where the merge point is. The correct procedure is to go to the end and take turns.
Why should motorcycles get a free pass to cut everyone off by riding in between the lanes? Nothing pisses me off more than seeing motorcycles show complete disregard for traffic laws.
Quote from: Zeffy on September 02, 2015, 09:35:15 PM
Why should motorcycles get a free pass to cut everyone off by riding in between the lanes? Nothing pisses me off more than seeing motorcycles show complete disregard for traffic laws.
If they are lane-splitting where it is not legal, then they should be cited. Otherwise... different vehicles have different rules due to the very nature of the vehicle. I don't like seeing motorcyclists show complete disregard for traffic laws any more than any other road user.
Would you rather they sit in traffic "like everyone else" and make it worse as a result, increasing the length of the line? Lane splitting isn't creating worse traffic, at most it is keeping it the same.
Quote from: Zeffy on September 02, 2015, 09:35:15 PM
Why should motorcycles get a free pass to cut everyone off by riding in between the lanes? Nothing pisses me off more than seeing motorcycles show complete disregard for traffic laws.
By that logic, why should HOV traffic get a "free pass" by not having to sit in the same traffic? What about pedestrians and bicycles? They should sit too, right?
http://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freewaymgmt/faq.htm
Quote15. Why are motorcycles allowed in some HOV lanes?
Motorcycles are permitted by federal law to use HOV lanes, even with only one passenger. The rationale behind allowing motorcycles to use HOV lanes is that it is safer to keep two-wheeled vehicles moving than to have them travel in start-and-stop traffic conditions. States can choose to override this provision of federal law, if they determine that safety is at risk.
Though I thought they were allowed in HOV lanes to account for fuel conservation, a reason HOV lanes were first put in.
Coming home today, in the span of 2 seconds, I saw a rider on a "crotch rocket" motorcycle move from my rear view mirror to my side mirror to in front of me. In dense traffic, moving at 50MPH. He had to be doing at least 80MPH to pass me that fast. I watched as he continued to weave through and between cars ahead of us and then turn right at a stoplight - without stopping.
Unnerving? You bet your ass it was.
I pay attention to motorcycles when I'm driving. My father and uncles are motorcycle riders. They would NEVER think of driving like this asshat was doing. All it would have taken is one car to stop short or close the gap in front of them and this guy would have been toast.
Sorry for the rant - riders like that give other riders a bad rep.
As far as lane splitting, I'm not a fan because it's not expected by most drivers.
Quote from: sdmichael on September 02, 2015, 08:59:06 PM
Quote from: empirestate on September 02, 2015, 01:51:03 PM
Whatever one's opinion on lane splitting, I have to believe that CA's permission of lane-splitting does not extend to the space between the carpool lane and the regular lanes, which I've frequently seen. As I recall, the wording of CA's law refers to lane striping, such that the carpool lane is out of bounds.
iPhone
There is no law regarding "lane splitting" in California. It just isn't illegal, something that may change in the future with an actual law stating it is legal. The space between the HOV and main lanes, when bounded by a double yellow line (or two sets) is illegal to cross regardless of the vehicle.
That's right; it's coming back to me now. It's neither expressly permitted nor illegal, so you simply apply any other existing and pertinent laws, such as the restrictions of pavement markings. Thus, you definitely may not lane-split by riding over the HOV buffer.
Quote from: empirestate on September 02, 2015, 11:49:57 PM
That's right; it's coming back to me now. It's neither expressly permitted nor illegal, so you simply apply any other existing and pertinent laws, such as the restrictions of pavement markings. Thus, you definitely may not lane-split by riding over the HOV buffer.
Probably not. But it's tolerated.
Quote from: Stratuscaster on September 02, 2015, 11:06:52 PM
As far as lane splitting, I'm not a fan because it's not expected by most drivers.
There are people alive today who will not be alive tomorrow. And there are people who will be born tomorrow who are not alive today. With each passing day, the driving populace changes...it's fluid, like our laws.
Right now, I would agree that most drivers don't expect them (outside of California). But given time, people will grow to accommodate the un-accommodated.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 03, 2015, 12:09:06 AM
Quote from: empirestate on September 02, 2015, 11:49:57 PM
That's right; it's coming back to me now. It's neither expressly permitted nor illegal, so you simply apply any other existing and pertinent laws, such as the restrictions of pavement markings. Thus, you definitely may not lane-split by riding over the HOV buffer.
Probably not. But it's tolerated.
Oh sure, lots of infractions are tolerated, as we all know, like jaywalking in NYC.
(Also, by "probably", do you mean you suspect it may actually be legal to ride on the buffer? Or were you saying that as a means of agreement?)
Quote from: empirestate on September 03, 2015, 12:38:05 AM
(Also, by "probably", do you mean you suspect it may actually be legal to ride on the buffer? Or were you saying that as a means of agreement?)
The California Driver handbook is the only thing I can find defining exactly what to do when meeting a double-double yellow line (don't touch it -- it's a wall (https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/wcm/connect/dmv_content_en/dmv/pubs/hdbk/traffic_lanes)). And while that's probably an okay source, I prefer to source the lawbooks themselves. My guess is that the law is in agreement with you (that is, no one may cross it or touch it, motorcycle or otherwise), but given how common it is for motorcyclists to ride upon them, I think there's a distinct possibility that it may actually be legal to ride upon them. Then again, it's been covered already that California does not expressly permit lane splitting, it just doesn't prohibit it, therefore the chance of the law actually spelling out "motorcycles may ride upon these lines" seems highly unlikely. But, I will remain un-convinced until I see the actual lawbook.
Does that make any sense? :D
Quote from: jakeroot on September 03, 2015, 01:24:14 AM
Quote from: empirestate on September 03, 2015, 12:38:05 AM
(Also, by "probably", do you mean you suspect it may actually be legal to ride on the buffer? Or were you saying that as a means of agreement?)
The California Driver handbook is the only thing I can find defining exactly what to do when meeting a double-double yellow line (don't touch it -- it's a wall (https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/wcm/connect/dmv_content_en/dmv/pubs/hdbk/traffic_lanes)). And while that's probably an okay source, I prefer to source the lawbooks themselves. My guess is that the law is in agreement with you (that is, no one may cross it or touch it, motorcycle or otherwise), but given how common it is for motorcyclists to ride upon them, I think there's a distinct possibility that it may actually be legal to ride upon them. Then again, it's been covered already that California does not expressly permit lane splitting, it just doesn't prohibit it, therefore the chance of the law actually spelling out "motorcycles may ride upon these lines" seems highly unlikely. But, I will remain un-convinced until I see the actual lawbook.
Does that make any sense? :D
Absolutely!
Quote from: jakeroot on September 03, 2015, 12:09:06 AM
But given time, people will grow to accommodate the un-accommodated.
That's one perspective. Since the majority of the country doesn't expect it, the tide may turn that more people will not accept it and in turn, shun the practice.
Here's an article from earlier this summer regarding lane splitting:
http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article26620264.html
In most states, the law is going to refer to driving in this manner: You must remain to the right of the center line, or between the lines on a multi-lane roadway. And there's probably going to be something stated that vehicles cannot pass each other in that same marked lane, or that two vehicles cannot be side-by-side in a single marked lane.
Lane Splitting is generally not going to be mentioned because it's going to be illegal already to drive on top of the painted line or next to another vehicle within the same lane.
Thus, lane splitting would need to be explicitly allowed. My guess is that since the law doesn't explicitly allow it, it may in fact be illegal but overlooked in California.
To put it in another, every day context: Turning Right On Red requires a law to explicitly allow it. The main law is: Red Light means Stop. The exception is: After a complete stop, a motorist may turn right on a red light, unless signage states otherwise.
Quote from: empirestate on September 02, 2015, 06:36:18 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 02, 2015, 03:05:18 PM
Quote from: empirestate on September 02, 2015, 01:51:03 PM
Whatever one's opinion on lane splitting, I have to believe that CA's permission of lane-splitting does not extend to the space between the carpool lane and the regular lanes, which I've frequently seen. As I recall, the wording of CA's law refers to lane striping, such that the carpool lane is out of bounds.
Like many states, California allows motorcycles to use HOV lanes, so such is permitted. Also, do consider how helpful that particular buffer is: cars cannot cross it (legally), and it's wide. Though, not all HOV lanes are marked like this.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetransitcoalition.us%2FPictures%2Ffig1.jpg&hash=c3c60e1085920fc52590aa5203aab7313ba2bb3b)
The buffer is exactly the issue; surely, motorcycles may not cross it either. But they necessarily do so in order to successfully lane-split alongside most cars or trucks.
Now, helpful? Sure, there's no doubt it's a more convenient, and likely safer, place to lane split. But legal? Not so far as I'm aware.
Lane splitting in California isn't riding between the lanes. Technically it's allowed because California doesn't have a law against lane sharing which legalizes two vehicles passing in the same lane.
As for the no-mans land between the double yellow lines, I wouldn't expect that to be allowed either. I'm sure California has a law against driving to the left of a double yellow line, or crossing a double yellow line to pass. There would be no legal way to get into that space.
I've just seen it in NJ as well. I don't remember where, but it was while car traffic was crawling. It was either where NJ 55 lanes merge or on NJ 73 approaching a traffic light. Either way, they went in between lanes to get in front of everybody else. suppose it isn't as dangerous in such a situation, but it is still annoying.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 03, 2015, 09:21:35 AM
Here's an article from earlier this summer regarding lane splitting:
http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article26620264.html
Quote from: realjd on September 03, 2015, 12:08:12 PM
Lane splitting in California isn't riding between the lanes. Technically it's allowed because California doesn't have a law against lane sharing which legalizes two vehicles passing in the same lane.
Take a look at the link I posted above. Especially the picture.
If that's not riding the line, then that's being in his own lane. And he's tailgating. And if he's moving faster than the rest of the traffic, then he's probably weaving in and out of traffic, failing to use a turn signal every time he passes another vehicle and merges "side by side" with a vehicle in his lane.
Lane Splitters are absolutely riding the line. They are not sharing a lane with another vehicle.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 02, 2015, 03:12:33 PM
Rudeness can be in the eye of the beholder.
My assumption was that Brandon considers lane splitting to be rude because he is jealous of them.
[/quote]
Jealous of being a jackass going 100 mph weaving in between cars and trucks and driving on the lane divider? :rolleyes:
I've always hated and am scared of motorcycles on interstates because of this behavior. Someone WILL hit one of these bikes while trying to change lanes because one second they check their mirror and signal to change lanes, the next they start moving over, and all of a sudden there is a motorcyclist flipping you off because he was weaving at 100 mph and you cut him off.
Unfortunately, this type of motorcyclist outnumbers the motorcyclists who are actually courteous, properly signal when changing lanes, etc.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 03, 2015, 12:45:15 PM
Lane Splitters are absolutely riding the line. They are not sharing a lane with another vehicle.
That's the appearance, but it's not reflective of reality. Sure, they might ride that narrow line of paint for a few hundred feet at a time, but to ride it for 10 or 15 miles at a time would require a skill that I'm sure only the most elite of motorcyclists possess.
The law in California permits lane sharing. I suppose you could make the argument that they signal their maneuvers, but in my opinion, that misleading, as they'd be turning them on and off multiple times every few yards and that is in no way helpful.
Quote from: ET21 on September 03, 2015, 01:07:00 PM
Jealous of being a jackass going 100 mph weaving in between cars and trucks and driving on the lane divider?
What the fuck are you talking about? That's not lane splitting at all. And not what anyone who promotes lane splitting is advocating for.
Furthermore, to suggest that the majority of motorcyclists weave in and out of traffic at 100 miles per hour is outrageous.
And trust me, if a motorcycle and a car come into contact, the motorcyclist is far more likely to be injured than the driver of the car, hence the whole point of lane splitting to begin with. The idea is to give motorcyclists the ability to protect themselves by riding in a place that's proven to be safer for them.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 03, 2015, 01:20:34 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 03, 2015, 12:45:15 PM
Lane Splitters are absolutely riding the line. They are not sharing a lane with another vehicle.
...Sure, they might ride that narrow line of paint for a few hundred feet at a time...
That would be like saying driving the shoulder to pass motorists going in the same direction for a few hundred feet is legal, or going the wrong way down a one way road for a few hundred feet is legal. If the law states lane sharing is permitted, then it's sharing the lane that's permitted, not intentionally riding between cars on the line.
QuoteThe law in California permits lane sharing. I suppose you could make the argument that they signal their maneuvers, but in my opinion, that misleading, as they'd be turning them on and off multiple times every few yards and that is in no way helpful.
Sorry. The law is the law. If sharing a lane is legal, then the motorcyclist should be remaining in a single lane. If the motorcyclist wants to switch lanes every few yards so that he/she's always "sharing" a lane, then he still needs to obey other laws, including signaling if so required in California.
Quote from: sdmichael on September 02, 2015, 09:18:43 PMIt isn't "cutting ahead".
Yes it is. If you were in a four-wheel vehicle, you'd have to maintain your place in the queue if you approach a traffic light. When you lane-split, you can ride the lane divider stripe right up to the signal, then take off when the light changes ahead of the cars stopped at the stop bars.
There used to be a term that was commonly used on MTR to describe this type of behavior. MFFY.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 03, 2015, 01:20:34 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 03, 2015, 12:45:15 PM
Lane Splitters are absolutely riding the line. They are not sharing a lane with another vehicle.
Quote from: ET21 on September 03, 2015, 01:07:00 PM
Jealous of being a jackass going 100 mph weaving in between cars and trucks and driving on the lane divider?
Furthermore, to suggest that the majority of motorcyclists weave in and out of traffic at 100 miles per hour is outrageous.
Well in my travels, it is the majority unfortunately
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 03, 2015, 12:45:15 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 03, 2015, 09:21:35 AM
Here's an article from earlier this summer regarding lane splitting:
http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article26620264.html
Quote from: realjd on September 03, 2015, 12:08:12 PM
Lane splitting in California isn't riding between the lanes. Technically it's allowed because California doesn't have a law against lane sharing which legalizes two vehicles passing in the same lane.
Take a look at the link I posted above. Especially the picture.
If that's not riding the line, then that's being in his own lane. And he's tailgating. And if he's moving faster than the rest of the traffic, then he's probably weaving in and out of traffic, failing to use a turn signal every time he passes another vehicle and merges "side by side" with a vehicle in his lane.
Lane Splitters are absolutely riding the line. They are not sharing a lane with another vehicle.
I'm just explaining the legal rationale for it being legal there.
Edit: I should add that CHP will sometimes use unsafe lane changing as the charge on tickets for motorcycles lane splitting unsafely.
Nevada does not allow lane splitting.
When the annual "Street Vibrations" motorcycle event is held in downtown Reno every September, NDOT usually goes out of its way to remind motorcycle drivers coming from California that lane splitting is illegal. They usually drag a portable VMS right to the state line on I-80, and use every DMS sign between the line and Reno, and display the message "Illegal to Split Lanes" (the DMSs also usually rotate in a reminder that motorcycle helmets are required).
As I waited to get off of the Queensboro Bridge yesterday, two NJ motorcycles lane split their way through the traffic.
Dirty criminals.
In Ohio, it is legal for motorcycles to travel in-between lanes during traffic, as long as it is done safely.
I don't see any issue with lane-splitting, particularly when there's slow or non-moving congestion, or long queues at red lights. Plus it provide incentive to ride a scooter/motorbike/motorcycle in an urban area, which is the more efficient vehicle for single-traveler personal urban transport (when you consider size, parking etc)
Quote from: hbelkins on September 03, 2015, 03:20:49 PM
Quote from: sdmichael on September 02, 2015, 09:18:43 PMIt isn't "cutting ahead".
Yes it is. If you were in a four-wheel vehicle, you'd have to maintain your place in the queue if you approach a traffic light. When you lane-split, you can ride the lane divider stripe right up to the signal, then take off when the light changes ahead of the cars stopped at the stop bars.
There used to be a term that was commonly used on MTR to describe this type of behavior. MFFY.
I think that's a feature, not a bug. It's simply using all of the available carriageway.
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on September 10, 2015, 10:45:13 AM
I don't see any issue with lane-splitting, particularly when there's slow or non-moving congestion, or long queues at red lights. Plus it provide incentive to ride a scooter/motorbike/motorcycle in an urban area, which is the more efficient vehicle for single-traveler personal urban transport (when you consider size, parking etc)
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on September 10, 2015, 10:48:54 AM
I think that's a feature, not a bug. It's simply using all of the available carriageway.
Why should one type of vehicle be given an advantage over another?
Quote from: hbelkins on September 10, 2015, 11:40:39 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on September 10, 2015, 10:45:13 AM
I don't see any issue with lane-splitting, particularly when there's slow or non-moving congestion, or long queues at red lights. Plus it provide incentive to ride a scooter/motorbike/motorcycle in an urban area, which is the more efficient vehicle for single-traveler personal urban transport (when you consider size, parking etc)
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on September 10, 2015, 10:48:54 AM
I think that's a feature, not a bug. It's simply using all of the available carriageway.
Why should one type of vehicle be given an advantage over another?
Because it can, basically. I don't see what fairness has to do with it at all. It's traffic flow, not social justice.
If you're against lane-splitting, you should also be against passing at-speed on a freeway. After all, you're "cutting" them, or "taking" their slot.
Let me ask you this - do you oppose people taking an acceleration lane all the way to the end, and then cutting over, versus getting in line immediately? Bear in mind that traffic engineers recommend using the entire acceleration lane.
Lane splitting adds capacity by adding invisible lanes. Rather than a motorcycle "taking" a car-equivalent position on a lane, it merely adds a temporary lane, allowing more throughput (the ultimate goal).
update With regards to giving advantage to bikes, I think it's obvious that in congested situations, smaller is better than bigger because you can clearly move more small vehicles (i.e. motorbikes) than large vehicles (cars) on the same roadway space. If you assume that most people are solo drivers, on the balance, there's no reason not to favor the vehicle which allow for a more efficient use of road space.
Think about ferries. I'll use Washington State Ferry as an example: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/ferries/fares/FaresDetail.aspx?tripdate=20150910&departingterm=7&arrivingterm=3
Their rates clearly favor smaller vehicles, but it's more efficient for them to load up with many smaller vehicles than fewer larger vehicles. Their cargo hold has limited space (like roads), and they can move more people (and make more money), by charging less and taking on more small vehicles, bikes, and motorbikes, than they would just filling up with sedans.
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on September 10, 2015, 12:14:49 PM
Lane splitting adds capacity by adding invisible lanes.
Hmm, that's an interesting way to look at it, and perhaps even gets at the root of the disagreement. Myself, I don't get bent out of shape over lane-splitting, so long as it isn't combined with recklessness, and
so long as cyclists don't expect me to make special accommodations for them. If lane splitting is legal, fine; but if we begin to think about a group of vehicles using a special space of their own, superimposed onto the established order of traffic, it becomes too many layers of regulation for me to apply. So, if they can somehow fit in between the rules, both figuratively and literally, and it's considered acceptable, I have no problem with it. I simply won't be engaging in it, as I'm committed to the established space and rules that we expect everyone to abide by.
It's no different than if you had a two-lane road, and then made it a two-lane road with a bike lane aside you. You just raised capacity, and all you had to do was tighten the margins a bit. I view lane-splitting as the constant creation of ad-hoc motorbike/cycle lanes as opportunity arises.
Plus it's not like the bikes are going to just stop at the front of the line. In fact, given their mass, they'll likely be the first ones out of the gate.
If you've ever been to Rome, you'll know what I'm talking about with motorbikes simply filling in the gaps in the road and making their way to the front of the queue.
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on September 10, 2015, 03:59:30 PM
It's no different than if you had a two-lane road, and then made it a two-lane road with a bike lane aside you. You just raised capacity, and all you had to do was tighten the margins a bit. I view lane-splitting as the constant creation of ad-hoc motorbike/cycle lanes as opportunity arises.
A bicycle lane is typically separated as a separate lane on its own though, not "lane splitting".
Quote from: Brandon on September 10, 2015, 04:23:47 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on September 10, 2015, 03:59:30 PM
It's no different than if you had a two-lane road, and then made it a two-lane road with a bike lane aside you. You just raised capacity, and all you had to do was tighten the margins a bit. I view lane-splitting as the constant creation of ad-hoc motorbike/cycle lanes as opportunity arises.
A bicycle lane is typically separated as a separate lane on its own though, not "lane splitting".
Didn't mean to convey that comparison (bad on my end). My point was that a motorcycle/motorbike doesn't need a lane the width of a full-sized auto. So why consign them to wait in a queue full of full-sized autos in full-sized lanes, when there's plenty of extra room on the roadway in the form of what I call the "invisible lanes", which is the space taken up by bikes when they engage in lane splitting.
All you're doing is getting more use out of your roadway. Rather than two lanes for autos, you have two lanes for autos plus whatever motorcycles/bikes can fill in the gaps between them.
Feds put local roads at 9-12 feet in width-
http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/geometric/pubs/mitigationstrategies/chapter3/3_lanewidth.cfm - let's average it out at 10.5 feet.
A Honda Accord sedan is about 6 feet wide- http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan/specifications.aspx - I'll even round up to 6.1
That leaves 4.4 feet (10.5 - 6.1) excess in each average lane, using a Honda Accord as a placeholder example. (What's crazy is that if the maximum lane width, 12 feet, is applied, you would have 5.9 feet, almost as wide as another Honda Accord!)
A Vespa scooter is 2.28 feet wide - http://www.vespamaintenance.com/specs.html - well within the 4.4 excess feet per lane. Why waste that space by preventing lane-splitting?
****
The bottom line is that it's foolish to waste scarce road space, particularly when the lanes are too wide to begin with (excess lane width is a pretty common design flaw in the US on new roads). In times of heavy congestion or while waiting at a red light, I don't see any downside to a small motorcycle/motorbike using this extra space in the roadway.
Obviously at high speeds the stakes are different, but I don't associated lane-splitting with high-speed situations.
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on September 10, 2015, 04:35:36 PM
The bottom line is that it's foolish to waste scarce road space, particularly when the lanes are too wide to begin with (excess lane width is a pretty common design flaw in the US on new roads). In times of heavy congestion or while waiting at a red light, I don't see any downside to a small motorcycle/motorbike using this extra space in the roadway.
Lets say you're on a two lane road, driving along, and you come across a motorcyclist going 5-10 mph slower than the speed you want to go at (not unusual). After puttering around for 5 miles, you FINALLY get to a spot where it is both safe and legal to pass (which on many NY roads is optimistic). A mile or two later, you come across a light, say in a small village, and there's a car in front of you at the light. Let's say the light is red long enough for the motorcyclist to catch up (not unusual). Instead of staying behind you, he lane splits, and when the light turns green, pulls in front of you (since the lane splitting allowed him to jump the queue). I'd be pretty pissed, wouldn't you?
Fair enough - I was basically referring to urban areas, which is my experience driving. I'm sure rural roads would require different rules and customs.
Quote from: vdeane on September 10, 2015, 05:14:47 PM
Lets say you're on a two lane road, driving along, and you come across a motorcyclist going 5-10 mph slower than the speed you want to go at (not unusual). After puttering around for 5 miles, you FINALLY get to a spot where it is both safe and legal to pass (which on many NY roads is optimistic). A mile or two later, you come across a light, say in a small village, and there's a car in front of you at the light. Let's say the light is red long enough for the motorcyclist to catch up (not unusual). Instead of staying behind you, he lane splits, and when the light turns green, pulls in front of you (since the lane splitting allowed him to jump the queue). I'd be pretty pissed, wouldn't you?
Most motorcyclists who drive that slow (usually scooters) tend not to lane split anyways, so I don't think it's something you'd have to worry about happening a lot. If they do decide to filter to the front, just overtake again. The opportunity may never materialize, granted, but if he's knowingly travelling slower than the speed of traffic, at least around here, scooters will ride as close to the edge of the pavement to allow traffic to pass without using the oncoming lane. They certainly have no legal obligation to (unless there's more than X-number of cars behind them, per many state statutes), but a good motorcyclist/scooter-rider would move over.
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on September 10, 2015, 10:48:54 AM
It's traffic flow, not social justice.
This basically sums up my opinion.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 10, 2015, 07:19:00 PM
Most motorcyclists who drive that slow (usually scooters) tend not to lane split anyways, so I don't think it's something you'd have to worry about happening a lot. If they do decide to filter to the front, just overtake again. The opportunity may never materialize, granted, but if he's knowingly travelling slower than the speed of traffic, at least around here, scooters will ride as close to the edge of the pavement to allow traffic to pass without using the oncoming lane. They certainly have no legal obligation to (unless there's more than X-number of cars behind them, per many state statutes), but a good motorcyclist/scooter-rider would move over.
Not usually scooters in these parts, at least not on roads with speed limits of 55.
Lane splitters = MFFY. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned. It's a selfish, dangerous and jerkoff-ish behavior.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 11, 2015, 10:13:46 PM
Lane splitters = MFFY. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned. It's a selfish, dangerous and jerkoff-ish behavior.
No offence HB, but if your own ego is more important than the safety of other road users, you are the problem here.
This thread comes down to something I have observed many of the of the discussions on this thread boil down to, which is basically that driving in urban areas/the Northeast and West costs can often be a very different experience than driving in the heartland.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 12, 2015, 02:39:17 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 11, 2015, 10:13:46 PM
Lane splitters = MFFY. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned. It's a selfish, dangerous and jerkoff-ish behavior.
No offence HB, but if your own ego is more important than the safety of other road users, you are the problem here.
:coffee: :coffee:
Quote from: jakeroot on September 12, 2015, 02:39:17 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 11, 2015, 10:13:46 PM
Lane splitters = MFFY. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned. It's a selfish, dangerous and jerkoff-ish behavior.
No offence HB, but if your own ego is more important than the safety of other road users, you are the problem here.
Uhh, I am talking about the safety of other road users. As in how lane-splitting endangers their lives and property through the selfish behavior of those doing the lane-splitting.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 13, 2015, 09:00:05 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 12, 2015, 02:39:17 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 11, 2015, 10:13:46 PM
Lane splitters = MFFY. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned. It's a selfish, dangerous and jerkoff-ish behavior.
No offence HB, but if your own ego is more important than the safety of other road users, you are the problem here.
Uhh, I am talking about the safety of other road users. As in how lane-splitting endangers their lives and property through the selfish behavior of those doing the lane-splitting.
You're really on about the "selfish and endanger" roll aren't you. I split lanes daily on my commute. I do so in a fairly safe manner, certainly not speeding through as I see some others do. As most motorists seem to stop really close to me when I'm sitting in traffic, I'd prefer to have a bit more control over my safety. I'd rather not get hit on the freeway from behind. It is also legal here and has been so for some time. It is even in the driving manual for California.
Would you prefer all the motorcycles sit in traffic with you, creating a longer backup? How about those in HOV lanes? They are certainly "cheating" by not having to sit in the same traffic you are, by your logic. Perhaps you'd prefer they also sit in the same traffic? I'm glad you're not a DOT employee here. We don't need people like you here.
Quote from: sdmichael on September 13, 2015, 11:23:42 PM
Would you prefer all the motorcycles sit in traffic with you, creating a longer backup? How about those in HOV lanes? They are certainly "cheating" by not having to sit in the same traffic you are, by your logic. Perhaps you'd prefer they also sit in the same traffic? I'm glad you're not a DOT employee here. We don't need people like you here.
I don't have a problem with motorcycles in the HOV lanes because they stay in line.
And trust me, I have no desire to be anywhere near California. San Andreas is the least of your faults. I wouldn't cry if the whole state fell off into the Pacific Ocean.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 14, 2015, 11:06:18 AM
Quote from: sdmichael on September 13, 2015, 11:23:42 PM
Would you prefer all the motorcycles sit in traffic with you, creating a longer backup? How about those in HOV lanes? They are certainly "cheating" by not having to sit in the same traffic you are, by your logic. Perhaps you'd prefer they also sit in the same traffic? I'm glad you're not a DOT employee here. We don't need people like you here.
I don't have a problem with motorcycles in the HOV lanes because they stay in line.
And trust me, I have no desire to be anywhere near California. San Andreas is the least of your faults. I wouldn't cry if the whole state fell off into the Pacific Ocean.
The biggest loss would be no more The Price Is Right.
Quote from: sdmichael on September 13, 2015, 11:23:42 PM
Would you prefer all the motorcycles sit in traffic with you, creating a longer backup? How about those in HOV lanes? They are certainly "cheating" by not having to sit in the same traffic you are, by your logic. Perhaps you'd prefer they also sit in the same traffic? I'm glad you're not a DOT employee here. We don't need people like you here.
Motorcycles are a fraction of the overall traffic. If motorcycles stayed in-line, we're talking what, an additional 50-ft/lane to the queue on a freeway? Maybe an additional 20-ft at a traffic light? I'll live with that. You make it sound like they're the size of semi trucks. As for HOV lanes, apples and oranges. You might as well throw bus and bike lanes into the argument.
Quote from: sdmichael on September 13, 2015, 11:23:42 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 13, 2015, 09:00:05 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 12, 2015, 02:39:17 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 11, 2015, 10:13:46 PM
Lane splitters = MFFY. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned. It's a selfish, dangerous and jerkoff-ish behavior.
No offence HB, but if your own ego is more important than the safety of other road users, you are the problem here.
Uhh, I am talking about the safety of other road users. As in how lane-splitting endangers their lives and property through the selfish behavior of those doing the lane-splitting.
Would you prefer all the motorcycles sit in traffic with you, creating a longer backup? How about those in HOV lanes? They are certainly "cheating" by not having to sit in the same traffic you are, by your logic. Perhaps you'd prefer they also sit in the same traffic? I'm glad you're not a DOT employee here. We don't need people like you here.
Yes. One bike in a traffic lane is not gonna cause the travel time to skyrocket because he is in the backup like everyone else. As DaBigE stated, you make it sound like bikes are semi trucks in backups and add 200+feet to the length :meh:
Quote from: ET21 on September 14, 2015, 12:01:49 PM
Quote from: sdmichael on September 13, 2015, 11:23:42 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 13, 2015, 09:00:05 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 12, 2015, 02:39:17 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 11, 2015, 10:13:46 PM
Lane splitters = MFFY. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned. It's a selfish, dangerous and jerkoff-ish behavior.
No offence HB, but if your own ego is more important than the safety of other road users, you are the problem here.
Uhh, I am talking about the safety of other road users. As in how lane-splitting endangers their lives and property through the selfish behavior of those doing the lane-splitting.
Would you prefer all the motorcycles sit in traffic with you, creating a longer backup? How about those in HOV lanes? They are certainly "cheating" by not having to sit in the same traffic you are, by your logic. Perhaps you'd prefer they also sit in the same traffic? I'm glad you're not a DOT employee here. We don't need people like you here.
Yes. One bike in a traffic lane is not gonna cause the travel time to skyrocket because he is in the backup like everyone else. As DaBigE stated, you make it sound like bikes are semi trucks in backups and add 200+feet to the length :meh:
It probably doesn't make any noticeable difference in travel times within, say two days of changing the law, but in time it would make a difference, albeit small. I know of quite a few people who would rather ride a motorcycle on a daily basis but don't because there's no obvious advantage; if lane splitting was permitted, stop-and-go traffic is of little concern to them.
Really, the advantages are limited to the motorcycling itself. Not only is the potential time savings of riding a motorcycle a huge plus, but there is also, in theory, a huge safety benefit in almost completely eliminating rear-end collisions. Beyond that, motorcycles are clearly the more vulnerable of the two (car and motorcycle). Forcing them to ride in an area that has a higher inherent danger of a collision simply because you think it's rude is nonsense. I'm not saying that they wouldn't be involved in collision when splitting lanes, but at least they can see them coming.
I'll just leave this here. Obviously we are all entitled to our own opinions on the subject and I respect that. I just flat out think it's dangerous, stupid, and could get someone killed if it hasn't already in this world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4KqJYDwxsk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4KqJYDwxsk)
Quote from: jakeroot on September 14, 2015, 02:53:49 PM
Really, the advantages are limited to the motorcycling itself. Not only is the potential time savings of riding a motorcycle a huge plus, but there is also, in theory, a huge safety benefit in almost completely eliminating rear-end collisions. Beyond that, motorcycles are clearly the more vulnerable of the two (car and motorcycle). Forcing them to ride in an area that has a higher inherent danger of a collision simply because you think it's rude is nonsense. I'm not saying that they wouldn't be involved in collision when splitting lanes, but at least they can see them coming.
While you may reduce the number of motorcycles being rear-ended, lane-splitting is more prone to put a motorcycle into a car's blind spot, increasing the risk of sideswipes. A rear-end crash you'd have a better chance of anticipating (mirrors, screeching tires); side-swipes come with less/little warning.
If you're so damned worried about being rear-ended on a frigging motorcycle, just pull up next to the first car you're behind on the shoulder and then when traffic starts moving again, get back in your place in line. Don't cut in front of everyone else under the misguided pretense that you're invoking a sense of self-protection.
Or use a safer vehicle.
Just an observation, but I do notice that the lane splitting proponents tend to be from California and the West Coast, while those of us most against it (and consider it downright rude) are from the Midwest and South.
Quote from: ET21 on September 14, 2015, 04:18:32 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4KqJYDwxsk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4KqJYDwxsk)
That's not lane splitting. Please don't think that's what I'm condoning.
Quote from: Brandon on September 14, 2015, 05:20:43 PM
Just an observation, but I do notice that the lane splitting proponents tend to be from California and the West Coast, while those of us most against it (and consider it downright rude) are from the Midwest and South.
I've noticed this as well. The "everyone's an enemy" attitude is substantially more prevalent back east than it is out west, at least in my experience.
Quote from: DaBigE on September 14, 2015, 04:45:35 PM
While you may reduce the number of motorcycles being rear-ended, lane-splitting is more prone to put a motorcycle into a car's blind spot, increasing the risk of sideswipes. A rear-end crash you'd have a better chance of anticipating (mirrors, screeching tires); side-swipes come with less/little warning.
I tend to measure "danger" by how easy it is to escape a situation (hard to escape = dangerous, easy to escape = safe). My fear with a rear-end collision is that a motorcyclist probably doesn't have anywhere to go, even if they do hear the screeching of the tires (which is not always something that occurs) or see the car approaching from behind (it's not feasible for them to keep their eyes glued to their mirrors). Most motorcyclists stop their bikes pointing towards the rear of a car, so they can't just dump the clutch and escape (best case, they hop off and run). Riding between cars, you can see someone about to move into your path and (hopefully) adjust your path accordingly. So, by my measures at least, rear-end collisions are more dangerous than those which occur while lane-splitting. I'm not saying that one occurs more often than the other, just that the ability to escape a sideswipe is greater than your ability to escape a rear-end collision.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 14, 2015, 04:47:43 PM
Or use a safer vehicle.
Actually, that's my point. Bike riding is, in general, more dangerous than driving a car (no crumple zone, no cage, no airbag, etc). Just by riding a bike, they are putting themselves in an inherently more dangerous situation than if they were driving a car. Given this, they should be permitted to take control of the situation and ride where they feel safe, not where we, the jealous 'murican, thinks they should.
Wouldn't lane splitting increase the time it takes the queue back up to speed? Everyone would have to stop to let the bikes merge back in rather when they could be accelerating.
Plus if they want to go slower than you do and are now in front when they weren't before (in my experience most motorcyclists want to ride 5 mph below the speed limit or at it, whereas I like to ride 5 mph above it), you're screwed.
Quote from: vdeane on September 14, 2015, 08:32:00 PM
Wouldn't lane splitting increase the time it takes the queue back up to speed? Everyone would have to stop to let the bikes merge back in rather when they could be accelerating.
Bikes are a lot faster than cars in terms of acceleration; they'll be on the other side of the intersection before the first car makes it midway through. If lanes are ending, they'll be more worried about each other than a car.
Quote from: vdeane on September 14, 2015, 08:32:00 PM
Plus if they want to go slower than you do and are now in front when they weren't before (in my experience most motorcyclists want to ride 5 mph below the speed limit or at it, whereas I like to ride 5 mph above it), you're screwed.
Bikers who are more interested in riding slowly usually don't lane split. So, yeah, you could be screwed, but I think the chances are slim. At least in my experience, motorcyclists tend to move along faster than most cars. Perhaps your area is an anomaly?
Most of the bikes I encounter are people going out on leisurely Sunday drives and taking in the scenery. Don't usually see them on day to day commuting, though I know at least some people at NYSDOT do commute by motorcycle.
Quote from: Brandon on September 14, 2015, 05:20:43 PM
Just an observation, but I do notice that the lane splitting proponents tend to be from California and the West Coast, while those of us most against it (and consider it downright rude) are from the Midwest and South.
As it is legal in California, that makes sense. It is illegal in the other 49 states and Canada. I'm not sure about Mexico. Most other civilized countries, it is legal.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 14, 2015, 11:06:18 AM
Quote from: sdmichael on September 13, 2015, 11:23:42 PM
Would you prefer all the motorcycles sit in traffic with you, creating a longer backup? How about those in HOV lanes? They are certainly "cheating" by not having to sit in the same traffic you are, by your logic. Perhaps you'd prefer they also sit in the same traffic? I'm glad you're not a DOT employee here. We don't need people like you here.
I don't have a problem with motorcycles in the HOV lanes because they stay in line.
And trust me, I have no desire to be anywhere near California. San Andreas is the least of your faults. I wouldn't cry if the whole state fell off into the Pacific Ocean.
So, the loss of nearly 40 million people is "ok"... got it. You really do have problems, don't you? Seek help dude.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 14, 2015, 04:47:43 PM
If you're so damned worried about being rear-ended on a frigging motorcycle, just pull up next to the first car you're behind on the shoulder and then when traffic starts moving again, get back in your place in line. Don't cut in front of everyone else under the misguided pretense that you're invoking a sense of self-protection.
Or use a safer vehicle.
Gawd... really dude? Cutting in line? Explain to me, EXACTLY, how when I lane-split, I'm "cutting in line" when I don't even remotely add to the line in the first place? Are you just jealous of the ability to avoid the line? Let me guess... you also get pissed at people who make appointments at the DMV who don't have to wait in the line? Get over it. Safety is the least of your considerations. Guess what, we don't all have to sit in the same traffic you do. We can make decisions which can avoid that traffic. You made the choice to go drive, deal with it and quit bitching about others that aren't dealing with the same BS you are. Stay out of California, please. Your kind (the kind that bitches and complains the way you do) aren't welcome here. Maybe next time I'll just drive and add to the traffic congestion. How about that?
Or... to put in in another way... Come to California... sit in traffic. I'll split lanes past you and laugh my ass off that you're still stuck in traffic. Try to "stop" me and use your vehicle as weapon, you'll be sitting in jail... I'll still be splitting lanes. My point, it is legal and safer than you'd think. No mode of transport is really "safe". You're just a blowhard that wants to complain about other modes of transport. How do you contribute in a positive way to your state DOT when you're supposed to consider ALL modes? Or are you trying to figure out ways to prevent others from "cutting in line"?
Quote from: vdeane on September 14, 2015, 08:32:00 PM
Wouldn't lane splitting increase the time it takes the queue back up to speed? Everyone would have to stop to let the bikes merge back in rather when they could be accelerating.
Plus if they want to go slower than you do and are now in front when they weren't before (in my experience most motorcyclists want to ride 5 mph below the speed limit or at it, whereas I like to ride 5 mph above it), you're screwed.
No, even with accelerating to the speed limit, I'm far ahead of the cars and by far not contributing to any slowness on their part. I prefer to ride at or near (within a few mph, I don't speed on surface streets) the speed limit on surface roadways. On average, I tend to gravitate toward 80 mph on freeways, and I'm still being passed. I'm rarely (and when I am I slow down) the "fastest" vehicle on the roadway.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 14, 2015, 08:18:18 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 14, 2015, 05:20:43 PM
Just an observation, but I do notice that the lane splitting proponents tend to be from California and the West Coast, while those of us most against it (and consider it downright rude) are from the Midwest and South.
I've noticed this as well. The "everyone's an enemy" attitude is substantially more prevalent back east than it is out west, at least in my experience.
Has nothing to do with "everyone's an enemy" attitude. It's just considered rude. Rude behavior is very much frowned upon here in the Midwest.
Quote from: sdmichael on September 14, 2015, 11:22:48 PM
As it is legal in California, that makes sense. It is illegal in the other 49 states and Canada. I'm not sure about Mexico. Most other civilized countries, it is legal.
And it is illegal in most civilized states. We in the Midwest hardly consider California civilized. And please cite where it is legal in these other countries.
Quote from: sdmichael on September 14, 2015, 11:32:16 PM
Or... to put in in another way... Come to California... sit in traffic. I'll split lanes past you and laugh my ass off that you're still stuck in traffic. Try to "stop" me and use your vehicle as weapon, you'll be sitting in jail...
And that is the arrogant self-centered and detached from reality me me me me me attitude of some bikers that cause all the problems.
You choose to ride a donor-cycle. Fine, your choice. BUT, no, everybody else, must accommodate Y O U. Not only your RECREATIONAL choice, but a, legal or illegal, STUPID method or riding it.
Eventually the law of averages will catch up to you. And, no matter what the law says, is a lick on you and your foolish choices.
Around here we have this so-called motorcycle safety program. Of which 99% of it is preaching at the 99% who do not ride donor-cycles about "rights" and bitching about having to wear a helmet and not being allowed to zig and zag through traffic.
If you want to ride a donor-cycle in an irresponsible way, fine. Just accept the laws as they are, or should be, and try to leave a clean kidney.
Quote from: SP Cook on September 15, 2015, 07:55:11 AM
Quote from: sdmichael on September 14, 2015, 11:32:16 PM
Or... to put in in another way... Come to California... sit in traffic. I'll split lanes past you and laugh my ass off that you're still stuck in traffic. Try to "stop" me and use your vehicle as weapon, you'll be sitting in jail...
And that is the arrogant self-centered and detached from reality me me me me me attitude of some bikers that cause all the problems.
You choose to ride a donor-cycle. Fine, your choice. BUT, no, everybody else, must accommodate Y O U. Not only your RECREATIONAL choice, but a, legal or illegal, STUPID method or riding it.
Eventually the law of averages will catch up to you. And, no matter what the law says, is a lick on you and your foolish choices.
Around here we have this so-called motorcycle safety program. Of which 99% of it is preaching at the 99% who do not ride donor-cycles about "rights" and bitching about having to wear a helmet and not being allowed to zig and zag through traffic.
If you want to ride a donor-cycle in an irresponsible way, fine. Just accept the laws as they are, or should be, and try to leave a clean kidney.
Donor-cycle? Nice attitude dude. Recreational? I haven't owned a car since 2011. Are you really that arrogant and stupid to call it a "donor-cycle"? ME ME ME? How do you get that part, exactly? Does it really piss you off that I can go ahead of you, not even adding the traffic jam you yourself are helping to create? Get over it. Worry about more important things.
I wear full gear every time I ride. I'm not "preaching about safety" and bitching about wearing a helmet. Gawd... way to stereotype an ENTIRE GROUP because of something you saw once.
People like you are a part of the problem with your pissed-off attitude. SO WHAT if someone gets ahead of you? You're going to wish DEATH upon them? You sure as hell seem to wish DEATH upon me with your "DONOR CYCLE" bullshit. What the f is your problem? GET HELP before you kill someone.
Quote from: sdmichael on September 15, 2015, 10:53:53 AM
Gawd... way to stereotype an ENTIRE GROUP because of something you saw once.
The worst of any group gets anecdotally blown out of proportion because of one or two bad experiences...bicyclists, motorcyclists, truckers, pilots, cops, government workers... it's human nature. What you experience last is what you remember most.
Admittedly, I cringe a little every time I see a sport bike/crotch-rocket. Why? Because so many of them treat the freeway near my home as their personal drag-strip late at night. The majority ones I've encountered in the day time are passing other vehicles with the narrowest of margins, usually well above any posted speed limits. Are all sport bike riders like that? No, but unfortunately a few have ruined my impression for all of them.
In the end, attitude is everything. You gotta give respect in order to get it.
Quote from: sdmichael on September 15, 2015, 10:53:53 AM
ME ME ME? How do you get that part, exactly? Does it really piss you off that I can go ahead of you, not even adding the traffic jam you yourself are helping to create? Get over it. Worry about more important things.
Traveling between the lanes is all about "ME ME ME!" That's why it's MFFY behavior. Wait your turn like a civilized human being.
Quote from: sdmichael on September 14, 2015, 11:32:16 PM
Gawd... really dude? Cutting in line? Explain to me, EXACTLY, how when I lane-split, I'm "cutting in line" when I don't even remotely add to the line in the first place?
Let. Me. Type. This. Slowly. So. You. Can. Comprehend. This.
You are cutting line when you zoom past a queue of vehicles stopped at a traffic light, in something that is not a designated lane of travel, so you can get to the front of the line.
QuoteLet me guess... you also get pissed at people who make appointments at the DMV who don't have to wait in the line?
God, you're a dumbass.
QuoteStay out of California, please.
Gladly. Your attitude is why much of the rest of the nation can't stand your state.
QuoteOr... to put in in another way... Come to California... sit in traffic. I'll split lanes past you and laugh my ass off that you're still stuck in traffic. Try to "stop" me and use your vehicle as weapon, you'll be sitting in jail... I'll still be splitting lanes.
I might just choose to conveniently dump the contents of a soft drink cup out my window as you come by riding the white line. Or if I smoked, I might toss a lit butt out the window.
QuoteHow do you contribute in a positive way to your state DOT when you're supposed to consider ALL modes? Or are you trying to figure out ways to prevent others from "cutting in line"?
One thing we do is advocate for motorcycle safety and responsible ridership.
Exactly. Donor-cycle riders not only want to drive their, already inherently dangerous hobbiest vehicles, but to do so in an even more dangerous than necessary manner, and to put "in jail" people who are just driving safely, becasue they have the audacity and self-centeredness to ask for special laws to accomodate their dangerous hobby.
Hey, if somebody wants to ride a donor-cycle, fine. Same as smoking. Lifestyle choice. But don't ask everybody else to change their behavior to accomodate your self-centered a**. No one really, whatever the law says, owes a donor-cyclist any accomodation more than a regular car. If you don't feel safe on a donor-cycle, there is a word for that. It is called maturity. And, if you want to zig and zag through traffic, understand that, WHEN you crack up, the illogic of your recreational choice will be clear to you, just before they zip closed the bag.
Because driving a vehicle with no safety features whatsoever, is dumb. Really that simple. No amount of shouting about your "rights" and no amount of taking away the rights of the majority can change that. Eventually, it will catch up to you. Just like smoking and other stupid choices.
Quote from: Brandon on September 15, 2015, 07:16:33 AM
And please cite where it is legal in these other countries.
It's hard to find exact sources because either lane sharing is legal or illegal, lane splitting is verbatim legal or illegal, or the country doesn't speak English altogether:
United Kingdom: https://goo.gl/w331FA (rule 88)
Ireland: http://goo.gl/LI1Of3 (page 8)
Australia (QLD, but some other states allow it as well): http://goo.gl/LJ6yk5 (second paragraph)
New Zealand: http://goo.gl/Le1B8X (basically the whole thing
South Africa: http://goo.gl/ujXAtS (common practice, not specifically illegal -- see follow-up paragraph near bottom)
Quote from: SP Cook on September 15, 2015, 02:42:07 PM
Donor-cycle..donor-cyclist
You seem to indicate that motorcycling is dangerous (and I would agree). So, why not permit lane splitting? It allows the motorcyclist to ride where they feel safest, be it between cars or in front of/behind them. There is no one "safe place" for motorcyclists.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 15, 2015, 02:30:41 PM
Quote from: sdmichael on September 14, 2015, 11:32:16 PM
Gawd... really dude? Cutting in line? Explain to me, EXACTLY, how when I lane-split, I'm "cutting in line" when I don't even remotely add to the line in the first place?
Let. Me. Type. This. Slowly. So. You. Can. Comprehend. This.
You are cutting line when you zoom past a queue of vehicles stopped at a traffic light, in something that is not a designated lane of travel, so you can get to the front of the line.
QuoteLet me guess... you also get pissed at people who make appointments at the DMV who don't have to wait in the line?
God, you're a dumbass.
QuoteStay out of California, please.
Gladly. Your attitude is why much of the rest of the nation can't stand your state.
QuoteOr... to put in in another way... Come to California... sit in traffic. I'll split lanes past you and laugh my ass off that you're still stuck in traffic. Try to "stop" me and use your vehicle as weapon, you'll be sitting in jail... I'll still be splitting lanes.
I might just choose to conveniently dump the contents of a soft drink cup out my window as you come by riding the white line. Or if I smoked, I might toss a lit butt out the window.
QuoteHow do you contribute in a positive way to your state DOT when you're supposed to consider ALL modes? Or are you trying to figure out ways to prevent others from "cutting in line"?
One thing we do is advocate for motorcycle safety and responsible ridership.
Toss anything out your car window at someone and you will be cited. You are a danger to others, period. What makes you think you are special and can deliberately endanger others by tossing debris at them? WTF is wrong with you?
Allow me to be very clear. First, you seem to not only wish physical harm on someone but also may attempt to inflict said harm. Do so and you will be facing criminal charges. Posting your intentions on this site may also be used against you. Seek anger management therapy before you murder someone.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 15, 2015, 02:50:51 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 15, 2015, 07:16:33 AM
And please cite where it is legal in these other countries.
It's hard to find exact sources because either lane sharing is legal or illegal, lane splitting is verbatim legal or illegal, or the country doesn't speak English altogether:
United Kingdom: https://goo.gl/w331FA (rule 88)
Ireland: http://goo.gl/LI1Of3 (page 8)
Australia (QLD, but some other states allow it as well): http://goo.gl/LJ6yk5 (second paragraph)
New Zealand: http://goo.gl/Le1B8X (basically the whole thing
South Africa: http://goo.gl/ujXAtS (common practice, not specifically illegal -- see follow-up paragraph near bottom)
Quote from: SP Cook on September 15, 2015, 02:42:07 PM
Donor-cycle..donor-cyclist
You seem to indicate that motorcycling is dangerous (and I would agree). So, why not permit lane splitting? It allows the motorcyclist to ride where they feel safest, be it between cars or in front of/behind them. There is no one "safe place" for motorcyclists.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Quote from: ET21 on September 15, 2015, 03:27:00 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 15, 2015, 02:50:51 PM
You seem to indicate that motorcycling is dangerous (and I would agree). So, why not permit lane splitting? It allows the motorcyclist to ride where they feel safest, be it between cars or in front of/behind them. There is no one "safe place" for motorcyclists.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
FFS man, use some words. I don't see the connection between the underlined red and your eye-rolling.
Quote from: sdmichael on September 15, 2015, 03:06:37 PM
What makes you think you are special and can deliberately endanger others
Which is exactly what you are doing when you lane split. You are endangering yourself and others.
So why do you think you're so special you can do so?
Quote from: Brandon on September 15, 2015, 05:23:12 PM
You are endangering yourself and others.
That's subjective at best, ignorant at worst. They are the vulnerable road user here, not the car;
let them ride where they feel safest.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 15, 2015, 05:38:57 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 15, 2015, 05:23:12 PM
You are endangering yourself and others.
That's subjective at best, ignorant at worst. They are the vulnerable road user here, not the car; let them ride where they feel safest.
Excuse me for believing they should stay in their lane if they wish to be treated as vehicles. If they want special treatment, then they should be banned from freeways just as bicycles are, and for the same reason.
Quote from: Brandon on September 15, 2015, 05:54:36 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 15, 2015, 05:38:57 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 15, 2015, 05:23:12 PM
You are endangering yourself and others.
That's subjective at best, ignorant at worst. They are the vulnerable road user here, not the car; let them ride where they feel safest.
Excuse me for believing they should stay in their lane if they wish to be treated as vehicles. If they want special treatment, then they should be banned from freeways just as bicycles are, and for the same reason.
As strange as it sounds, motorcycles do want special treatment, and I think they deserve it. Legally, they are defined as vehicles, but the comparisons are limited. The problem is that the one thing that generally determines where something belongs (speed) factors them in with everyday vehicles. The problem is that there aren't any advocacy groups building motorcycle lanes or exclusive paths; they really just have to work with what already exists. And of course, I'm not so thick as to not understand what you're saying: cars and bikes are legally the same and should be treated the same. And while I mostly agree, I think there are some unique situations which require less black-and-white thinking. Lane splitting, in my eyes, is one of those situations.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 15, 2015, 03:42:31 PM
Quote from: ET21 on September 15, 2015, 03:27:00 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 15, 2015, 02:50:51 PM
You seem to indicate that motorcycling is dangerous (and I would agree). So, why not permit lane splitting? It allows the motorcyclist to ride where they feel safest, be it between cars or in front of/behind them. There is no one "safe place" for motorcyclists.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
FFS man, use some words. I don't see the connection between the underlined red and your eye-rolling.
Why use words when the :rolleyes: says it all?
Safest in-between cars???? I'll remember that when someone riding a bike almost takes off my mirror on my commute today
Quote from: ET21 on September 16, 2015, 10:56:12 AM
Safest in-between cars???? I'll remember that when someone riding a bike almost takes off my mirror on my commute today
The point is to let them ride where they feel most comfortable. You are in a safe cage with airbags and a crumple zone. These guys are riding around without much of any protection, other than what they can put on their heads and their bodies. They need us to look out for them, and
insisting that they ride along with other cars in the same lane is not necessarily the way to do that. In some situations, it may not be safer to lane split, but in other situations, it might be. There is no one-size-fits-all answer here. Hence why I support motorcyclists being able to make their own decisions in order to arrive alive.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 16, 2015, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: ET21 on September 16, 2015, 10:56:12 AM
Safest in-between cars???? I'll remember that when someone riding a bike almost takes off my mirror on my commute today
The point is to let them ride where they feel most comfortable. You are in a safe cage with airbags and a crumple zone. These guys are riding around without much of any protection, other than what they can put on their heads and their bodies. They need us to look out for them, and insisting that they ride along with other cars in the same lane is not necessarily the way to do that. In some situations, it may not be safer to lane split, but in other situations, it might be. There is no one-size-fits-all answer here. Hence why I support motorcyclists being able to make their own decisions in order to arrive alive.
If everyone would pay more attention to the driving task, lane-splitting for safety would be a non-issue. Very few people seem to bother checking their side view mirrors anymore, which is why I tend to think lane-splitting is more dangerous (combined with the existing blind spots on a vehicle).
All too many people don't know what sideview mirrors are! Too many people call them "rear-view mirrors" and position them so they show the side of the car and overlap the true rear-view mirror, which is located inside the car.
Quote from: DaBigE on September 16, 2015, 01:36:09 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 16, 2015, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: ET21 on September 16, 2015, 10:56:12 AM
Safest in-between cars???? I'll remember that when someone riding a bike almost takes off my mirror on my commute today
The point is to let them ride where they feel most comfortable. You are in a safe cage with airbags and a crumple zone. These guys are riding around without much of any protection, other than what they can put on their heads and their bodies. They need us to look out for them, and insisting that they ride along with other cars in the same lane is not necessarily the way to do that. In some situations, it may not be safer to lane split, but in other situations, it might be. There is no one-size-fits-all answer here. Hence why I support motorcyclists being able to make their own decisions in order to arrive alive.
If everyone would pay more attention to the driving task, lane-splitting for safety would be a non-issue. Very few people seem to bother checking their side view mirrors anymore, which is why I tend to think lane-splitting is more dangerous (combined with the existing blind spots on a vehicle).
And I don't disagree that it can be more dangerous (I actually said that in the post that you quoted), I'm just not convinced that riding in a line of cars is always the safest option. There's a perception, of course, that there's about a million things that can go wrong when lane-splitting (someone changing lanes, mirrors, doors, etc) but a lot of those concerns are
just perception and not necessarily representative of reality. Ultimately, the studies don't show lane splitting to be any more dangerous than riding in a line of cars (most studies conclude that lane splitting is actually safer). Most of the studies were performed in California with American drivers (you can't study things that don't exist, and since California is the only state that openly permits lane-splitting, it's pretty much the only place you can study). And so far as I'm aware, California is not regarded nation-wide for having the best drivers (though not the worst, certainly).
While in Annapolis this week. CPZ took me on a little sightseeing tour that involved using I-395 and US 50 to get from the Springfield interchange back to Maryland.
At a ramp off 395, we saw a motorcyclist using the shoulder to get past a queue of vehicles.
And on New York Avenue, while stopped at a red light, a MFFY motorcyclist split lanes to get up to the front of the queue.
Made me wonder if that selfish MFFY asshole "sdmichael" had come to the east coast.
Quote from: sdmichael on September 15, 2015, 03:06:37 PM
WTF is wrong with you?
I have an increasingly low tolerance for selfish idiotic pricks like you.
Quote from: Brandon on September 15, 2015, 05:23:12 PM
Quote from: sdmichael on September 15, 2015, 03:06:37 PM
What makes you think you are special and can deliberately endanger others
Which is exactly what you are doing when you lane split. You are endangering yourself and others.
So why do you think you're so special you can do so?
Quote from: Brandon on September 15, 2015, 05:54:36 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 15, 2015, 05:38:57 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 15, 2015, 05:23:12 PM
You are endangering yourself and others.
That's subjective at best, ignorant at worst. They are the vulnerable road user here, not the car; let them ride where they feel safest.
Excuse me for believing they should stay in their lane if they wish to be treated as vehicles. If they want special treatment, then they should be banned from freeways just as bicycles are, and for the same reason.
Exactly. If a bicyclist is in traffic and wants to get around it, they can walk their bike on the sidewalk. I guess sdmichael thinks it's OK to ride a bike on the sidewalk, too.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 18, 2015, 04:22:56 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 15, 2015, 05:54:36 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 15, 2015, 05:38:57 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 15, 2015, 05:23:12 PM
You are endangering yourself and others.
That's subjective at best, ignorant at worst. They are the vulnerable road user here, not the car; let them ride where they feel safest.
Excuse me for believing they should stay in their lane if they wish to be treated as vehicles. If they want special treatment, then they should be banned from freeways just as bicycles are, and for the same reason.
Exactly. If a bicyclist is in traffic and wants to get around it, they can walk their bike on the sidewalk. I guess sdmichael thinks it's OK to ride a bike on the sidewalk, too.
It's not entirely fair to compare motorcycles with pedal-bikes. Many US cities have made accommodations for cyclists that motorcyclists can only dream of. Motorcyclists are legally permitted to ride only where cars can drive. Cyclists, at least in a fair number of cities, don't really have any restrictions on where they can ride. The vast majority of cyclists can choose where they want to ride based on where they feel the safest. Motorcyclists have no such freedom and are forced to ride where they may not feel safe.
A possible downside to lane-splitting is that they tend to "get ahead". They're not MFFY'ing, they're just riding. You two are opposed to lane splitting on purely selfish grounds, which is outrageous. And don't give me any of that small-town "rude" bullshit, and how the Midwest is the only place with any manners left. Times are changing, and it's about time you two did as well, before you get left behind.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 18, 2015, 04:22:56 PM
While in Annapolis this week. CPZ took me on a little sightseeing tour that involved using I-395 and US 50 to get from the Springfield interchange back to Maryland.
At a ramp off 395, we saw a motorcyclist using the shoulder to get past a queue of vehicles.
And on New York Avenue, while stopped at a red light, a MFFY motorcyclist split lanes to get up to the front of the queue.
Made me wonder if that selfish MFFY asshole "sdmichael" had come to the east coast.
Quote from: sdmichael on September 15, 2015, 03:06:37 PM
WTF is wrong with you?
I have an increasingly low tolerance for selfish idiotic pricks like you.
Quote from: Brandon on September 15, 2015, 05:23:12 PM
Quote from: sdmichael on September 15, 2015, 03:06:37 PM
What makes you think you are special and can deliberately endanger others
Which is exactly what you are doing when you lane split. You are endangering yourself and others.
So why do you think you're so special you can do so?
Quote from: Brandon on September 15, 2015, 05:54:36 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 15, 2015, 05:38:57 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 15, 2015, 05:23:12 PM
You are endangering yourself and others.
That's subjective at best, ignorant at worst. They are the vulnerable road user here, not the car; let them ride where they feel safest.
Excuse me for believing they should stay in their lane if they wish to be treated as vehicles. If they want special treatment, then they should be banned from freeways just as bicycles are, and for the same reason.
Exactly. If a bicyclist is in traffic and wants to get around it, they can walk their bike on the sidewalk. I guess sdmichael thinks it's OK to ride a bike on the sidewalk, too.
How about laying off the personal insults before you're banned, HBElkins? I will not attempt to argue with someone like you. Be aware your posts have been reported. Promoting road rage, intentional harm of others by tossing debris at them, and personal insults are NOT appropriate under ANY circumstances.
Quote from: sdmichael on September 18, 2015, 09:03:08 PM
How about laying off the personal insults before you're banned, HBElkins? I will not attempt to argue with someone like you. Be aware your posts have been reported. Promoting road rage, intentional harm of others by tossing debris at them, and personal insults are NOT appropriate under ANY circumstances.
Michael, we're trying to have a civil discussion here. No need to go reporting posts. I don't think HB could hurt a fly, let alone throw a beverage at someone. Words are just words; move on.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 18, 2015, 09:42:53 PM
Quote from: sdmichael on September 18, 2015, 09:03:08 PM
How about laying off the personal insults before you're banned, HBElkins? I will not attempt to argue with someone like you. Be aware your posts have been reported. Promoting road rage, intentional harm of others by tossing debris at them, and personal insults are NOT appropriate under ANY circumstances.
Michael, we're trying to have a civil discussion here. No need to go reporting posts. I don't think HB could hurt a fly, let alone throw a beverage at someone. Words are just words; move on.
Civil is one thing. He has taken it far beyond that and is decidedly no longer civil. Calling me an asshole, promoting intentional harm of others by use of debris thrown, and other remarks by him are inappropriate. Words may be words, but he promotes action, not words. Considering what goes on out there, I take his threats seriously and shall not be tolerated.
Quote from: sdmichael on September 18, 2015, 09:56:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 18, 2015, 09:42:53 PM
Quote from: sdmichael on September 18, 2015, 09:03:08 PM
How about laying off the personal insults before you're banned, HBElkins? I will not attempt to argue with someone like you. Be aware your posts have been reported. Promoting road rage, intentional harm of others by tossing debris at them, and personal insults are NOT appropriate under ANY circumstances.
Michael, we're trying to have a civil discussion here. No need to go reporting posts. I don't think HB could hurt a fly, let alone throw a beverage at someone. Words are just words; move on.
Civil is one thing. He has taken it far beyond that and is decidedly no longer civil. Calling me an asshole, promoting intentional harm of others by use of debris thrown, and other remarks by him are inappropriate. Words may be words, but he promotes action, not words. Considering what goes on out there, I take his threats seriously and shall not be tolerated.
Yea, because
Quote from: sdmichael on September 14, 2015, 11:32:16 PM
Stay out of California, please. Your kind (the kind that bitches and complains the way you do) aren't welcome here. Maybe next time I'll just drive and add to the traffic congestion. How about that?
Quote from: sdmichael on September 14, 2015, 11:32:16 PM
You're just a blowhard that wants to complain about other modes of transport. How do you contribute in a positive way to your state DOT when you're supposed to consider ALL modes? Or are you trying to figure out ways to prevent others from "cutting in line"?
was keeping it civil. :rolleyes:
You're both pushing each other's buttons. Knock it off before another good discussion gets locked.
Lane-splitting may make sense for states/urban areas with severe congestion issues as a potential mitigation tool. I still wonder how many motorcyclists are really being put at a disadvantage in places where lane-splitting is illegal. However, the thought initiating it in an area where it's forbidden may be dangerous at best, mainly because it violates driver expectations.
That said, the motorcycle population is still relatively small in most areas. Adding those motorcycles to the existing vehicle queue isn't going to add much to the overall problem due to the size differential. I don't totally agree with the comparison to bicycles, though. Yes, they're both on two wheels, much smaller than a car, and much more vulnerable to injury than a car driver. That's where the similarities end. Bicyclists have separate facilities due to their speed differential. Motorcycles have the same/superior handling capabilities as a car, thus belong on the same facilities as car, IMHO. If you want separate facilities for motorcycles, good luck with that sell to the taxpayers. I'll bring the popcorn to that town hall meeting.
Quote from: DaBigE on September 18, 2015, 10:28:03 PM
Quote from: sdmichael on September 18, 2015, 09:56:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 18, 2015, 09:42:53 PM
Quote from: sdmichael on September 18, 2015, 09:03:08 PM
How about laying off the personal insults before you're banned, HBElkins? I will not attempt to argue with someone like you. Be aware your posts have been reported. Promoting road rage, intentional harm of others by tossing debris at them, and personal insults are NOT appropriate under ANY circumstances.
Michael, we're trying to have a civil discussion here. No need to go reporting posts. I don't think HB could hurt a fly, let alone throw a beverage at someone. Words are just words; move on.
Civil is one thing. He has taken it far beyond that and is decidedly no longer civil. Calling me an asshole, promoting intentional harm of others by use of debris thrown, and other remarks by him are inappropriate. Words may be words, but he promotes action, not words. Considering what goes on out there, I take his threats seriously and shall not be tolerated.
Yea, because
Quote from: sdmichael on September 14, 2015, 11:32:16 PM
Stay out of California, please. Your kind (the kind that bitches and complains the way you do) aren't welcome here. Maybe next time I'll just drive and add to the traffic congestion. How about that?
Quote from: sdmichael on September 14, 2015, 11:32:16 PM
You're just a blowhard that wants to complain about other modes of transport. How do you contribute in a positive way to your state DOT when you're supposed to consider ALL modes? Or are you trying to figure out ways to prevent others from "cutting in line"?
was keeping it civil. :rolleyes:
You're both pushing each other's buttons. Knock it off before another good discussion gets locked.
Let it be locked. This discussion has been more bitching and moaning about something that, where I live, it quite legal and accepted. I seem to be the only motorcyclist adding to this conversation and, thus far, have been insulted, called an asshole, and potentially threatened with violence. All this discussion has done, thus far, has been to give a few a place to vent about something that occurs rarely in their regions and is, again, legal here. This discussion has NO PLACE here and NO PURPOSE but to allow a few to project their anger about others, using terms such as "donor-cycle", asshole, "they should be banned", and many others. It hasn't been a good discussion from the start. Let it be locked. I, for one, haven't promoted, glorified, nor tolerated violent acts upon other road users yet others have here.
Keeping it "civil" does NOT include promoting violent acts upon other road users, insults, and other remarks. Let it be closed. It has gone on long enough. Your knock at my comments without the remarks I was replying to is indeed rather one-sided. Perhaps you should read HB Elkins remarks about his wishing for DEATH upon other road users, first. You call that a "good discussion"?
Quote from: sdmichael on September 18, 2015, 10:50:21 PMPerhaps you should read HB Elkins remarks about his wishing for DEATH upon other road users, first.
And I did that where, exactly? You really are about as dense as a box of rocks.
Quote from: sdmichael on September 18, 2015, 09:03:08 PM...before you're banned, HBElkins? ... Be aware your posts have been reported.
Oh, I'm soooooo scared.
Let me ask you something. How long have you been around the roadgeek community? Were you there in the early days of MTR? Where's your website with thousands of pictures? How many meets have you been to or hosted? In other words, who are you?
California's given the country a lot of bad ideas. Lane-splitting is one of them. Please, keep it out there. It's not wanted around here.
Quote from: sdmichael on September 18, 2015, 10:50:21 PM
Your knock at my comments without the remarks I was replying to is indeed rather one-sided. Perhaps you should read HB Elkins remarks about his wishing for DEATH upon other road users, first. You call that a "good discussion"?
Quote from: DaBigE on September 18, 2015, 10:28:03 PM
You're both pushing each other's buttons. Knock it off before another good discussion gets locked.
What part of
both do you not understand? Absolutely nowhere was I condoning
anyone's posts. You share blame in this mess whether you admit it or not.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 18, 2015, 11:06:52 PM
Quote from: sdmichael on September 18, 2015, 10:50:21 PMPerhaps you should read HB Elkins remarks about his wishing for DEATH upon other road users, first.
And I did that where, exactly? You really are about as dense as a box of rocks.
Quote from: sdmichael on September 18, 2015, 09:03:08 PM...before you're banned, HBElkins? ... Be aware your posts have been reported.
Oh, I'm soooooo scared.
Let me ask you something. How long have you been around the roadgeek community? Were you there in the early days of MTR? Where's your website with thousands of pictures? How many meets have you been to or hosted? In other words, who are you?
California's given the country a lot of bad ideas. Lane-splitting is one of them. Please, keep it out there. It's not wanted around here.
Hmm... had the same website since 1995... I have thousands of photos... was on MTR long ago... yeah... I'm "nobody". What difference does that make, exactly? You know nothing about me yet you persist in calling me an asshole, among others things. Do research and STOP with the acts of aggression against others. Wishing death upon others, using profanities, promoting road rage, and threatening harm upon others is uncalled for, period. Call me whatever names you wish, but promoting acts of violence against others WILL NOT BE TOLERATED AT ALL. It is uncalled for. This isn't a forum to vent your road rage and to threaten others. It is not humorous in the least. IS THAT UNDERSTOOD? I have ZERO TOLERANCE for such things.
In case you haven't noticed, I don't really care who started what or why. Promoting acts of violence or threatening others with violence is not to be condoned nor tolerated, period. I have not done so, nor will I do so.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 15, 2015, 02:30:41 PM
QuoteOr... to put in in another way... Come to California... sit in traffic. I'll split lanes past you and laugh my ass off that you're still stuck in traffic. Try to "stop" me and use your vehicle as weapon, you'll be sitting in jail... I'll still be splitting lanes.
I might just choose to conveniently dump the contents of a soft drink cup out my window as you come by riding the white line. Or if I smoked, I might toss a lit butt out the window.
Ok, that last statement is probably the most irresponsible thing I've heard given the fact that there are hundreds, if not thousands of people who are homeless because of two large wildfires burning in northern and central California (http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_details_info?incident_id=1221 and http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_details_info?incident_id=1226). Granted these fires were not started because of a tossed cigarette butt but to say you'd do it to stop a lane splitter is just plain irresponsible. :angry:
Now, to get back on topic, am I annoyed/angered by lane splitters? No, if they followed the guidelines provided (and subsequently removed) by the CHP, most notably when speed of traffic is less than 30 MPH with a differential of 10 MPH or less. The ones that get me angry are the idiots that lane split when traffic is flowing freely doing 70+ MPH.
It should be noted that the only reason lane splitting is legal in California is because there are no laws that explicitly ban the practice. The California Highway Patrol took the stance that lane splitting is legal
if done safely. There was a bill in the California legislature (AB 51) that would have formally legalized lane splitting but was tabled by the author until 2016 to iron out some of the kinks.
Quote from: myosh_tino on September 19, 2015, 05:40:49 AM
It should be noted that the only reason lane splitting is legal in California is because there are no laws that explicitly ban the practice.
Technically, it's explicitly permitted. If California took out the language that allows 2 vehicles to occupy the same lane at the same time, then it'll be illegal.
Quote from: sdmichael on September 19, 2015, 12:21:26 AMWishing death upon others
And I did that where, exactly? I didn't. That's why you are so annoying. You're imagining things and putting words in my mouth.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 19, 2015, 10:14:23 PM
Quote from: sdmichael on September 19, 2015, 12:21:26 AMWishing death upon others
And I did that where, exactly? I didn't. That's why you are so annoying. You're imagining things and putting words in my mouth.
How about this? They are your words, bolded and underlined for emphasis. Sounds like you wished them serious injury or death to me. They were idiots and weren't "lane splitting". Just stop dude. Just stop. This isn't your road rage vent fest.
"Re: Motorcycles going between cars
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2015, 09:02:44 PM »
ReplyQuote
I saw two crotch rockets passing a truck on the paved shoulder in a curve on northbound KY 15 between Hazard and Jackson today.
Too bad there wasn't a disabled vehicle parked there for them to slam into.Lane-splitting is stupid and dangerous and should be illegal everywhere."
Quote from: sdmichael on September 19, 2015, 11:05:57 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 19, 2015, 10:14:23 PM
Quote from: sdmichael on September 19, 2015, 12:21:26 AMWishing death upon others
And I did that where, exactly? I didn't. That's why you are so annoying. You're imagining things and putting words in my mouth.
How about this? They are your words, bolded and underlined for emphasis. Sounds like you wished them serious injury or death to me. They were idiots and weren't "lane splitting". Just stop dude. Just stop. This isn't your road rage vent fest.
"Re: Motorcycles going between cars
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2015, 09:02:44 PM »
ReplyQuote
I saw two crotch rockets passing a truck on the paved shoulder in a curve on northbound KY 15 between Hazard and Jackson today. Too bad there wasn't a disabled vehicle parked there for them to slam into.
Lane-splitting is stupid and dangerous and should be illegal everywhere."
Pardon me, but allow me to interject. First off, hb's quote that you bolded and underlined mentions nothing about death. Just by hoping that the riders encounter an object to slam into, it doesn't mean said riders will die. Chances are, they won't fare well, but it isn't certain that they will die. Second, it's only human nature for a person to hope for negative results to something they're opposed to. I doubt anyone has or ever will say something like, "Gee, I hope those motorcyclists successfully pass that truck on the shoulder so they can go on to commit similar acts down the road."
Quote from: signalman on September 20, 2015, 01:15:47 AM
First off, hb's quote that you bolded and underlined mentions nothing about death. Just by hoping that the riders encounter an object to slam into, it doesn't mean said riders will die.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FGn04H.gif&hash=f850c1a78c4b8790d1a0340f7cbc21c8ca3995fe)
Quote from: signalman on September 20, 2015, 01:15:47 AM
Second, it's only human nature for a person to hope for negative results to something they're opposed to. I doubt anyone has or ever will say something like, "Gee, I hope those motorcyclists successfully pass that truck on the shoulder so they can go on to commit similar acts down the road."
Wishing death upon someone simply because you're opposed to their way of life is pretty heinous. And don't get me wrong, I love a good off-color joke; dark comedy is my favorite. But unless HB plans on stepping in at some point, and declaring his statement a joke, I reserve some right to take him seriously.
Locking - Calm down people