Motorcycles going between cars

[hbelkins]

Gawd... really dude? Cutting in line? Explain to me, EXACTLY, how when I lane-split, I'm "cutting in line" when I don't even remotely add to the line in the first place?

Let. Me. Type. This. Slowly. So. You. Can. Comprehend. This.

You are cutting line when you zoom past a queue of vehicles stopped at a traffic light, in something that is not a designated lane of travel, so you can get to the front of the line.

Let me guess... you also get pissed at people who make appointments at the DMV who don't have to wait in the line?

God, you're a dumbass.

Stay out of California, please.

Gladly. Your attitude is why much of the rest of the nation can't stand your state.

Or... to put in in another way... Come to California... sit in traffic. I'll split lanes past you and laugh my ass off that you're still stuck in traffic. Try to "stop" me and use your vehicle as weapon, you'll be sitting in jail... I'll still be splitting lanes.

I might just choose to conveniently dump the contents of a soft drink cup out my window as you come by riding the white line. Or if I smoked, I might toss a lit butt out the window.

How do you contribute in a positive way to your state DOT when you're supposed to consider ALL modes? Or are you trying to figure out ways to prevent others from "cutting in line"?

One thing we do is advocate for motorcycle safety and responsible ridership.

[SP Cook]

Exactly.  Donor-cycle riders not only want to drive their, already inherently dangerous hobbiest vehicles, but to do so in an even more dangerous than necessary manner, and to put "in jail" people who are just driving safely, becasue they have the audacity and self-centeredness to ask for special laws to accomodate their dangerous hobby. 

Hey, if somebody wants to ride a donor-cycle, fine.  Same as smoking.  Lifestyle choice.  But don't ask everybody else to change their behavior to accomodate your self-centered a**. No one really, whatever the law says, owes a donor-cyclist any accomodation more than a regular car. If you don't feel safe on a donor-cycle, there is a word for that.  It is called maturity.  And, if you want to zig and zag through traffic, understand that, WHEN you crack up, the illogic of your recreational choice will be clear to you, just before they zip closed the bag. 

Because driving a vehicle with no safety features whatsoever, is dumb.  Really that simple.  No amount of shouting about your "rights" and no amount of taking away the rights of the majority can change that.  Eventually, it will catch up to you.  Just like smoking and other stupid choices.

[jakeroot]

And please cite where it is legal in these other countries.

It's hard to find exact sources because either lane sharing is legal or illegal, lane splitting is verbatim legal or illegal, or the country doesn't speak English altogether:

United Kingdom: https://goo.gl/w331FA (rule 88)
Ireland: http://goo.gl/LI1Of3 (page 8)
Australia (QLD, but some other states allow it as well): http://goo.gl/LJ6yk5 (second paragraph)
New Zealand: http://goo.gl/Le1B8X (basically the whole thing
South Africa: http://goo.gl/ujXAtS (common practice, not specifically illegal -- see follow-up paragraph near bottom)

Donor-cycle..donor-cyclist

You seem to indicate that motorcycling is dangerous (and I would agree). So, why not permit lane splitting? It allows the motorcyclist to ride where they feel safest, be it between cars or in front of/behind them. There is no one "safe place" for motorcyclists.

[sdmichael]

Gawd... really dude? Cutting in line? Explain to me, EXACTLY, how when I lane-split, I'm "cutting in line" when I don't even remotely add to the line in the first place?

Let. Me. Type. This. Slowly. So. You. Can. Comprehend. This.

You are cutting line when you zoom past a queue of vehicles stopped at a traffic light, in something that is not a designated lane of travel, so you can get to the front of the line.

Let me guess... you also get pissed at people who make appointments at the DMV who don't have to wait in the line?

God, you're a dumbass.

Stay out of California, please.

Gladly. Your attitude is why much of the rest of the nation can't stand your state.

Or... to put in in another way... Come to California... sit in traffic. I'll split lanes past you and laugh my ass off that you're still stuck in traffic. Try to "stop" me and use your vehicle as weapon, you'll be sitting in jail... I'll still be splitting lanes.

I might just choose to conveniently dump the contents of a soft drink cup out my window as you come by riding the white line. Or if I smoked, I might toss a lit butt out the window.

How do you contribute in a positive way to your state DOT when you're supposed to consider ALL modes? Or are you trying to figure out ways to prevent others from "cutting in line"?

One thing we do is advocate for motorcycle safety and responsible ridership.

Toss anything out your car window at someone and you will be cited. You are a danger to others, period. What makes you think you are special and can deliberately endanger others by tossing debris at them? WTF is wrong with you?

Allow me to be very clear. First, you seem to not only wish physical harm on someone but also may attempt to inflict said harm. Do so and you will be facing criminal charges. Posting your intentions on this site may also be used against you. Seek anger management therapy before you murder someone.

[ET21]

And please cite where it is legal in these other countries.

It's hard to find exact sources because either lane sharing is legal or illegal, lane splitting is verbatim legal or illegal, or the country doesn't speak English altogether:

United Kingdom: https://goo.gl/w331FA (rule 88)
Ireland: http://goo.gl/LI1Of3 (page 8)
Australia (QLD, but some other states allow it as well): http://goo.gl/LJ6yk5 (second paragraph)
New Zealand: http://goo.gl/Le1B8X (basically the whole thing
South Africa: http://goo.gl/ujXAtS (common practice, not specifically illegal -- see follow-up paragraph near bottom)

Donor-cycle..donor-cyclist

You seem to indicate that motorcycling is dangerous (and I would agree). So, why not permit lane splitting? It allows the motorcyclist to ride where they feel safest, be it between cars or in front of/behind them. There is no one "safe place" for motorcyclists.

[jakeroot]

You seem to indicate that motorcycling is dangerous (and I would agree). So, why not permit lane splitting? It allows the motorcyclist to ride where they feel safest, be it between cars or in front of/behind them. There is no one "safe place" for motorcyclists.

FFS man, use some words. I don't see the connection between the underlined red and your eye-rolling.

[Brandon]

What makes you think you are special and can deliberately endanger others

Which is exactly what you are doing when you lane split.  You are endangering yourself and others.

So why do you think you're so special you can do so?

[jakeroot]

You are endangering yourself and others.

That's subjective at best, ignorant at worst. They are the vulnerable road user here, not the car; let them ride where they feel safest.

[Brandon]

You are endangering yourself and others.

That's subjective at best, ignorant at worst. They are the vulnerable road user here, not the car; let them ride where they feel safest.

Excuse me for believing they should stay in their lane if they wish to be treated as vehicles.  If they want special treatment, then they should be banned from freeways just as bicycles are, and for the same reason.

[jakeroot]

You are endangering yourself and others.

That's subjective at best, ignorant at worst. They are the vulnerable road user here, not the car; let them ride where they feel safest.

Excuse me for believing they should stay in their lane if they wish to be treated as vehicles.  If they want special treatment, then they should be banned from freeways just as bicycles are, and for the same reason.

As strange as it sounds, motorcycles do want special treatment, and I think they deserve it. Legally, they are defined as vehicles, but the comparisons are limited. The problem is that the one thing that generally determines where something belongs (speed) factors them in with everyday vehicles. The problem is that there aren't any advocacy groups building motorcycle lanes or exclusive paths; they really just have to work with what already exists. And of course, I'm not so thick as to not understand what you're saying: cars and bikes are legally the same and should be treated the same. And while I mostly agree, I think there are some unique situations which require less black-and-white thinking. Lane splitting, in my eyes, is one of those situations.

[ET21]

You seem to indicate that motorcycling is dangerous (and I would agree). So, why not permit lane splitting? It allows the motorcyclist to ride where they feel safest, be it between cars or in front of/behind them. There is no one "safe place" for motorcyclists.

FFS man, use some words. I don't see the connection between the underlined red and your eye-rolling.

Why use words when the says it all?

Safest in-between cars???? I'll remember that when someone riding a bike almost takes off my mirror on my commute today

[jakeroot]

Safest in-between cars???? I'll remember that when someone riding a bike almost takes off my mirror on my commute today

The point is to let them ride where they feel most comfortable. You are in a safe cage with airbags and a crumple zone. These guys are riding around without much of any protection, other than what they can put on their heads and their bodies. They need us to look out for them, and insisting that they ride along with other cars in the same lane is not necessarily the way to do that. In some situations, it may not be safer to lane split, but in other situations, it might be. There is no one-size-fits-all answer here. Hence why I support motorcyclists being able to make their own decisions in order to arrive alive.

[DaBigE]

Safest in-between cars???? I'll remember that when someone riding a bike almost takes off my mirror on my commute today

The point is to let them ride where they feel most comfortable. You are in a safe cage with airbags and a crumple zone. These guys are riding around without much of any protection, other than what they can put on their heads and their bodies. They need us to look out for them, and insisting that they ride along with other cars in the same lane is not necessarily the way to do that. In some situations, it may not be safer to lane split, but in other situations, it might be. There is no one-size-fits-all answer here. Hence why I support motorcyclists being able to make their own decisions in order to arrive alive.

If everyone would pay more attention to the driving task, lane-splitting for safety would be a non-issue. Very few people seem to bother checking their side view mirrors anymore, which is why I tend to think lane-splitting is more dangerous (combined with the existing blind spots on a vehicle).

[1995hoo]

All too many people don't know what sideview mirrors are! Too many people call them "rear-view mirrors" and position them so they show the side of the car and overlap the true rear-view mirror, which is located inside the car.

[jakeroot]

Safest in-between cars???? I'll remember that when someone riding a bike almost takes off my mirror on my commute today

The point is to let them ride where they feel most comfortable. You are in a safe cage with airbags and a crumple zone. These guys are riding around without much of any protection, other than what they can put on their heads and their bodies. They need us to look out for them, and insisting that they ride along with other cars in the same lane is not necessarily the way to do that. In some situations, it may not be safer to lane split, but in other situations, it might be. There is no one-size-fits-all answer here. Hence why I support motorcyclists being able to make their own decisions in order to arrive alive.

If everyone would pay more attention to the driving task, lane-splitting for safety would be a non-issue. Very few people seem to bother checking their side view mirrors anymore, which is why I tend to think lane-splitting is more dangerous (combined with the existing blind spots on a vehicle).

And I don't disagree that it can be more dangerous (I actually said that in the post that you quoted), I'm just not convinced that riding in a line of cars is always the safest option. There's a perception, of course, that there's about a million things that can go wrong when lane-splitting (someone changing lanes, mirrors, doors, etc) but a lot of those concerns are just perception and not necessarily representative of reality. Ultimately, the studies don't show lane splitting to be any more dangerous than riding in a line of cars (most studies conclude that lane splitting is actually safer). Most of the studies were performed in California with American drivers (you can't study things that don't exist, and since California is the only state that openly permits lane-splitting, it's pretty much the only place you can study). And so far as I'm aware, California is not regarded nation-wide for having the best drivers (though not the worst, certainly).

[hbelkins]

While in Annapolis this week. CPZ took me on a little sightseeing tour that involved using I-395 and US 50 to get from the Springfield interchange back to Maryland.

At a ramp off 395, we saw a motorcyclist using the shoulder to get past a queue of vehicles.

And on New York Avenue, while stopped at a red light, a MFFY motorcyclist split lanes to get up to the front of the queue.

Made me wonder if that selfish MFFY asshole "sdmichael" had come to the east coast.

WTF is wrong with you?

I have an increasingly low tolerance for selfish idiotic pricks like you.

What makes you think you are special and can deliberately endanger others

Which is exactly what you are doing when you lane split.  You are endangering yourself and others.

So why do you think you're so special you can do so?

You are endangering yourself and others.

That's subjective at best, ignorant at worst. They are the vulnerable road user here, not the car; let them ride where they feel safest.

Excuse me for believing they should stay in their lane if they wish to be treated as vehicles.  If they want special treatment, then they should be banned from freeways just as bicycles are, and for the same reason.

Exactly. If a bicyclist is in traffic and wants to get around it, they can walk their bike on the sidewalk. I guess sdmichael thinks it's OK to ride a bike on the sidewalk, too.

[jakeroot]

You are endangering yourself and others.

That's subjective at best, ignorant at worst. They are the vulnerable road user here, not the car; let them ride where they feel safest.

Excuse me for believing they should stay in their lane if they wish to be treated as vehicles.  If they want special treatment, then they should be banned from freeways just as bicycles are, and for the same reason.

Exactly. If a bicyclist is in traffic and wants to get around it, they can walk their bike on the sidewalk. I guess sdmichael thinks it's OK to ride a bike on the sidewalk, too.

It's not entirely fair to compare motorcycles with pedal-bikes. Many US cities have made accommodations for cyclists that motorcyclists can only dream of. Motorcyclists are legally permitted to ride only where cars can drive. Cyclists, at least in a fair number of cities, don't really have any restrictions on where they can ride. The vast majority of cyclists can choose where they want to ride based on where they feel the safest. Motorcyclists have no such freedom and are forced to ride where they may not feel safe.

A possible downside to lane-splitting is that they tend to "get ahead". They're not MFFY'ing, they're just riding. You two are opposed to lane splitting on purely selfish grounds, which is outrageous. And don't give me any of that small-town "rude" bullshit, and how the Midwest is the only place with any manners left. Times are changing, and it's about time you two did as well, before you get left behind.

[sdmichael]

While in Annapolis this week. CPZ took me on a little sightseeing tour that involved using I-395 and US 50 to get from the Springfield interchange back to Maryland.

At a ramp off 395, we saw a motorcyclist using the shoulder to get past a queue of vehicles.

And on New York Avenue, while stopped at a red light, a MFFY motorcyclist split lanes to get up to the front of the queue.

Made me wonder if that selfish MFFY asshole "sdmichael" had come to the east coast.

WTF is wrong with you?

I have an increasingly low tolerance for selfish idiotic pricks like you.

What makes you think you are special and can deliberately endanger others

Which is exactly what you are doing when you lane split.  You are endangering yourself and others.

So why do you think you're so special you can do so?

You are endangering yourself and others.

That's subjective at best, ignorant at worst. They are the vulnerable road user here, not the car; let them ride where they feel safest.

Excuse me for believing they should stay in their lane if they wish to be treated as vehicles.  If they want special treatment, then they should be banned from freeways just as bicycles are, and for the same reason.

Exactly. If a bicyclist is in traffic and wants to get around it, they can walk their bike on the sidewalk. I guess sdmichael thinks it's OK to ride a bike on the sidewalk, too.

How about laying off the personal insults before you're banned, HBElkins? I will not attempt to argue with someone like you. Be aware your posts have been reported. Promoting road rage, intentional harm of others by tossing debris at them, and personal insults are NOT appropriate under ANY circumstances.

[jakeroot]

How about laying off the personal insults before you're banned, HBElkins? I will not attempt to argue with someone like you. Be aware your posts have been reported. Promoting road rage, intentional harm of others by tossing debris at them, and personal insults are NOT appropriate under ANY circumstances.

Michael, we're trying to have a civil discussion here. No need to go reporting posts. I don't think HB could hurt a fly, let alone throw a beverage at someone. Words are just words; move on.

[sdmichael]

How about laying off the personal insults before you're banned, HBElkins? I will not attempt to argue with someone like you. Be aware your posts have been reported. Promoting road rage, intentional harm of others by tossing debris at them, and personal insults are NOT appropriate under ANY circumstances.

Michael, we're trying to have a civil discussion here. No need to go reporting posts. I don't think HB could hurt a fly, let alone throw a beverage at someone. Words are just words; move on.

Civil is one thing. He has taken it far beyond that and is decidedly no longer civil. Calling me an asshole, promoting intentional harm of others by use of debris thrown, and other remarks by him are inappropriate. Words may be words, but he promotes action, not words. Considering what goes on out there, I take his threats seriously and shall not be tolerated.

[DaBigE]

How about laying off the personal insults before you're banned, HBElkins? I will not attempt to argue with someone like you. Be aware your posts have been reported. Promoting road rage, intentional harm of others by tossing debris at them, and personal insults are NOT appropriate under ANY circumstances.

Michael, we're trying to have a civil discussion here. No need to go reporting posts. I don't think HB could hurt a fly, let alone throw a beverage at someone. Words are just words; move on.

Civil is one thing. He has taken it far beyond that and is decidedly no longer civil. Calling me an asshole, promoting intentional harm of others by use of debris thrown, and other remarks by him are inappropriate. Words may be words, but he promotes action, not words. Considering what goes on out there, I take his threats seriously and shall not be tolerated.

Yea, because

Stay out of California, please. Your kind (the kind that bitches and complains the way you do) aren't welcome here. Maybe next time I'll just drive and add to the traffic congestion. How about that?

You're just a blowhard that wants to complain about other modes of transport. How do you contribute in a positive way to your state DOT when you're supposed to consider ALL modes? Or are you trying to figure out ways to prevent others from "cutting in line"?

was keeping it civil.

You're both pushing each other's buttons. Knock it off before another good discussion gets locked.

[DaBigE]

Lane-splitting may make sense for states/urban areas with severe congestion issues as a potential mitigation tool. I still wonder how many motorcyclists are really being put at a disadvantage in places where lane-splitting is illegal. However, the thought initiating it in an area where it's forbidden may be dangerous at best, mainly because it violates driver expectations.

That said, the motorcycle population is still relatively small in most areas. Adding those motorcycles to the existing vehicle queue isn't going to add much to the overall problem due to the size differential. I don't totally agree with the comparison to bicycles, though. Yes, they're both on two wheels, much smaller than a car, and much more vulnerable to injury than a car driver. That's where the similarities end. Bicyclists have separate facilities due to their speed differential. Motorcycles have the same/superior handling capabilities as a car, thus belong on the same facilities as car, IMHO. If you want separate facilities for motorcycles, good luck with that sell to the taxpayers. I'll bring the popcorn to that town hall meeting.

[sdmichael]

How about laying off the personal insults before you're banned, HBElkins? I will not attempt to argue with someone like you. Be aware your posts have been reported. Promoting road rage, intentional harm of others by tossing debris at them, and personal insults are NOT appropriate under ANY circumstances.

Michael, we're trying to have a civil discussion here. No need to go reporting posts. I don't think HB could hurt a fly, let alone throw a beverage at someone. Words are just words; move on.

Civil is one thing. He has taken it far beyond that and is decidedly no longer civil. Calling me an asshole, promoting intentional harm of others by use of debris thrown, and other remarks by him are inappropriate. Words may be words, but he promotes action, not words. Considering what goes on out there, I take his threats seriously and shall not be tolerated.

Yea, because

Stay out of California, please. Your kind (the kind that bitches and complains the way you do) aren't welcome here. Maybe next time I'll just drive and add to the traffic congestion. How about that?

You're just a blowhard that wants to complain about other modes of transport. How do you contribute in a positive way to your state DOT when you're supposed to consider ALL modes? Or are you trying to figure out ways to prevent others from "cutting in line"?

was keeping it civil.

You're both pushing each other's buttons. Knock it off before another good discussion gets locked.

Let it be locked. This discussion has been more bitching and moaning about something that, where I live, it quite legal and accepted. I seem to be the only motorcyclist adding to this conversation and, thus far, have been insulted, called an asshole, and potentially threatened with violence. All this discussion has done, thus far, has been to give a few a place to vent about something that occurs rarely in their regions and is, again, legal here. This discussion has NO PLACE here and NO PURPOSE but to allow a few to project their anger about others, using terms such as "donor-cycle", asshole, "they should be banned", and many others. It hasn't been a good discussion from the start. Let it be locked. I, for one, haven't promoted, glorified, nor tolerated violent acts upon other road users yet others have here.

Keeping it "civil" does NOT include promoting violent acts upon other road users, insults, and other remarks. Let it be closed. It has gone on long enough. Your knock at my comments without the remarks I was replying to is indeed rather one-sided. Perhaps you should read HB Elkins remarks about his wishing for DEATH upon other road users, first. You call that a "good discussion"?

[hbelkins]

Perhaps you should read HB Elkins remarks about his wishing for DEATH upon other road users, first.

And I did that where, exactly? You really are about as dense as a box of rocks.

...before you're banned, HBElkins? ... Be aware your posts have been reported.

Oh, I'm soooooo scared.

Let me ask you something. How long have you been around the roadgeek community? Were you there in the early days of MTR? Where's your website with thousands of pictures? How many meets have you been to or hosted? In other words, who are you?

California's given the country a lot of bad ideas. Lane-splitting is one of them. Please, keep it out there. It's not wanted around here.

[DaBigE]

Your knock at my comments without the remarks I was replying to is indeed rather one-sided. Perhaps you should read HB Elkins remarks about his wishing for DEATH upon other road users, first. You call that a "good discussion"?

You're both pushing each other's buttons. Knock it off before another good discussion gets locked.

What part of both do you not understand? Absolutely nowhere was I condoning anyone's posts. You share blame in this mess whether you admit it or not.