Why hasn't MUTCD adopted more internationally recognized symbolic signs as Canada, Europe and most other countries in the world? We have too many word only signs that could easily be replaced with symbolic ones'. Sure, we use more and more symbolic signs but still not enough.
Quote from: NJ on November 25, 2015, 11:41:11 AM
Why hasn't MUTCD adopted more internationally recognized symbolic signs as Canada, Europe and most other countries in the world? We have too many word only signs that could easily be replaced with symbolic ones'. Sure, we use more and more symbolic signs but still not enough.
Some of them, IMHO, are not as intuitive. The tunnel ones I've seen are usually a mess. We do have a lot more symbol shapes that Europe lacks, such as the No Passing Zone pennant and the school zone sign (shared with Canada).
Quote from: Brandon on November 25, 2015, 12:04:50 PM
Quote from: NJ on November 25, 2015, 11:41:11 AM
Why hasn't MUTCD adopted more internationally recognized symbolic signs as Canada, Europe and most other countries in the world? We have too many word only signs that could easily be replaced with symbolic ones'. Sure, we use more and more symbolic signs but still not enough.
Some of them, IMHO, are not as intuitive. The tunnel ones I've seen are usually a mess. We do have a lot more symbol shapes that Europe lacks, such as the No Passing Zone pennant and the school zone sign (shared with Canada).
Canada including many other countries uses this symbol for "No passing" -> (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fauto.epochtimes.com%2Fuploaded_files%2F2014%2F8%2F13%2F7ea7bb4e24344aacbe637d650926f4f1.gif&hash=4560fc273ba6f91204fe75274896b4cad9400b04)
School signs in Europe (other countries use their native local language though) -> (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.suffolk.police.uk%2Fimages%2Fschoolsign485x275.jpg&hash=d2f34a2456c140cba52ad3048c1a480b53d85197)
I know in the case of logo signs, the use of symbols for each service type would make the signs larger, especially if multiple service types are represented on a single sign.
Plus, I wonder what would a symbol for Attractions look like. The MUTCD doesn't have an official Attractions symbol for general service signs, so I wonder what could be used if logo signs were to switch to symbols.
Quote from: Brandon on November 25, 2015, 12:04:50 PMSome of them, IMHO, are not as intuitive.
I totally agree that some Vienna Convention signs are unintuitive. The parking restriction ones, for example, the lack of red stripes on prohibitions, the use of mandatory blue circles for 'bicycles only', etc that reads as 'bicycles must use' etc, or 'pass obstacle on either side' that reads as 'go both ways' (they ought to be blue rectangles). But all that is fixable - use the current Vienna-inspired US sign for no-Parking, put (as the US does) red lines through prohibitions, use blue circles more like how the UK does (with the occasional slip up), rather than certain other European countries (which have lots of 'you must' when they don't mean that).
QuoteThe tunnel ones I've seen are usually a mess.
Really? What is wrong with them?
And if you are saying 'unintuitive' for these, then I don't see how a picture of a tunnel portal is less intuitive than the word 'tunnel'. All the non-US countries who used the MUTCD as inspiration, rather than the Vienna convention, for their own sign manuals use a Vienna-inspired tunnel symbol instead of the word.
QuoteWe do have a lot more symbol shapes that Europe lacks, such as the No Passing Zone pennant
How is that a symbol?
Quoteand the school zone sign (shared with Canada).
The school zone symbol is the Vienna Convention 'children' one.
Oh, I see, you mean sign shapes. I can, just about understand a sign shape for schools (though why aren't other places busy with vulnerable pedestrians as important?), but does 'No Passing' really require a special sign shape? I'd argue (and Europe is just as flawed here) that No Entry is much more worthy of it's own distinctive shape, alongside STOP and Yield. With the rail-road crossing X, that's 3 more shapes - hardly 'a lot more' and there's no real reason for those three things to have a unique sign shape other than "there's no reason why not".
"NO TURN ON RED"
"BRIDGE"
"LEFT/RIGHT LANE MUST TURN LEFT/RIGHT"
"DIP"
"HUMP/BUMP"
"BRIDGE FREEZES BEFORE ROAD SURFACE/ICY"
"FALLING ROCKS"
"ROAD NORROWS"
"RIGHT/LEFT LANE ENDS"
"TUNNEL"
^ Could be replaced with internationally recognized symbolic signs as used in other countries.
We also should get rid of word only "No parking" or "parking signs" with P around a circle, much nicer and better!
I'm fan of Canada's road signs.
Quote from: NJ on November 25, 2015, 11:41:11 AM
Why hasn't MUTCD adopted more internationally recognized symbolic signs as Canada, Europe and most other countries in the world? We have too many word only signs that could easily be replaced with symbolic ones'. Sure, we use more and more symbolic signs but still not enough.
The MUTCD has actually been moving more toward symbolization. The 2009 version introduced several new symbols, in part based on symbols used around the country and in Canada (and possibly Mexico). Also, in some cases word sign variants were removed (stop/yield ahead)...at one time these were the norm.
The reason why the MUTCD isn't rapidly expanding symbols is that the requirements with symbols require study before being included. Any new symbols are supposed to be approved by FHWA for experimentation prior to being implemented, then study is required after implementation. Compare with word signs, where MUTCD provisions allow jurisdictions to create appropriate word message signs whenever no standard sign exists for the purpose.
Quote from: roadfro on November 25, 2015, 03:13:15 PM
Quote from: NJ on November 25, 2015, 11:41:11 AM
Why hasn't MUTCD adopted more internationally recognized symbolic signs as Canada, Europe and most other countries in the world? We have too many word only signs that could easily be replaced with symbolic ones'. Sure, we use more and more symbolic signs but still not enough.
The reason why the MUTCD isn't rapidly expanding symbols is that the requirements with symbols require study before being included. Any new symbols are supposed to be approved by FHWA for experimentation prior to being implemented, then study is required after implementation. Compare with word signs, where MUTCD provisions allow jurisdictions to create appropriate word message signs whenever no standard sign exists for the purpose.
If Canada and other countries already uses internationally recognized symbol, there shouldn't be any reason why America shouldn't with or without the study. Tunnel, Bridge, Bump, Hump, Dip are examples that should be symbolic for sure.
Quote from: NJ on November 25, 2015, 03:24:03 PM
Quote from: roadfro on November 25, 2015, 03:13:15 PM
Quote from: NJ on November 25, 2015, 11:41:11 AM
Why hasn't MUTCD adopted more internationally recognized symbolic signs as Canada, Europe and most other countries in the world? We have too many word only signs that could easily be replaced with symbolic ones'. Sure, we use more and more symbolic signs but still not enough.
The reason why the MUTCD isn't rapidly expanding symbols is that the requirements with symbols require study before being included. Any new symbols are supposed to be approved by FHWA for experimentation prior to being implemented, then study is required after implementation. Compare with word signs, where MUTCD provisions allow jurisdictions to create appropriate word message signs whenever no standard sign exists for the purpose.
If Canada and other countries already uses internationally recognized symbol, there shouldn't be any reason why America shouldn't with or without the study. Tunnel, Bridge, Bump, Hump, Dip are examples that should be symbolic for sure.
You forget that everyone is not a world traveler. Just because other countries use it doesn't necessarily mean all drivers will understand it here. Hell, I work with road signs on a regular basis, and there's many international ones that I have to look up the meaning of myself.
Quote from: DaBigE on November 25, 2015, 03:55:12 PM
Quote from: NJ on November 25, 2015, 03:24:03 PM
Quote from: roadfro on November 25, 2015, 03:13:15 PM
Quote from: NJ on November 25, 2015, 11:41:11 AM
Why hasn't MUTCD adopted more internationally recognized symbolic signs as Canada, Europe and most other countries in the world? We have too many word only signs that could easily be replaced with symbolic ones'. Sure, we use more and more symbolic signs but still not enough.
The reason why the MUTCD isn't rapidly expanding symbols is that the requirements with symbols require study before being included. Any new symbols are supposed to be approved by FHWA for experimentation prior to being implemented, then study is required after implementation. Compare with word signs, where MUTCD provisions allow jurisdictions to create appropriate word message signs whenever no standard sign exists for the purpose.
If Canada and other countries already uses internationally recognized symbol, there shouldn't be any reason why America shouldn't with or without the study. Tunnel, Bridge, Bump, Hump, Dip are examples that should be symbolic for sure.
You forget that everyone is not a world traveler. Just because other countries use it doesn't necessarily mean all drivers will understand it here. Hell, I work with road signs on a regular basis, and there's many international ones that I have to look up the meaning of myself.
I'm pretty sure most people would understand these symbols (Keep in mind that not everybody understands English either in America), therefore symbolic signs when possible makes more sense regardless of native language;
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/New_Zealand_PW-52.svg/64px-New_Zealand_PW-52.svg.png)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Canada_-_No_Overtaking.svg/120px-Canada_-_No_Overtaking.svg.png)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/Brasil_A-44.svg/64px-Brasil_A-44.svg.png)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Brasil_A-19.svg/64px-Brasil_A-19.svg.png)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Qu%C3%A9bec_D-350.svg/64px-Qu%C3%A9bec_D-350.svg.png)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Colombia_SP-42.svg/64px-Colombia_SP-42.svg.png)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Ontario_Wa-30.svg/64px-Ontario_Wa-30.svg.png)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/Ontario_Wa-74.svg/64px-Ontario_Wa-74.svg.png)
Quote from: roadfro on November 25, 2015, 03:13:15 PM
The MUTCD has actually been moving more toward symbolization. The 2009 version introduced several new symbols, in part based
I wish someone could explain to me why "narrow bridge" was removed. I still see it all the time, but I know it ain't in the manual:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Peru_road_sign_narrow_bridge.svg/140px-Peru_road_sign_narrow_bridge.svg.png)
Quote from: jakeroot on November 25, 2015, 04:44:46 PM
Quote from: roadfro on November 25, 2015, 03:13:15 PM
The MUTCD has actually been moving more toward symbolization. The 2009 version introduced several new symbols, in part based
I wish someone could explain to me why "narrow bridge" was removed. I still see it all the time, but I know it ain't in the manual:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Peru_road_sign_narrow_bridge.svg/140px-Peru_road_sign_narrow_bridge.svg.png)
Probably too subtle for most drivers to understand. Those familiar with maps can figure it out (since the brackets are typically used to denote a bridge or overpass), but not the average schmoe. It only gets worse as GPS and Google Maps continue to replace paper maps. Kind of like why Do Not Enter and Yield signs still have words on them.
I have seen a couple locations use that symbol sign as a generic road narrows alternative.
Hmm....
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/New_Zealand_PW-52.svg/64px-New_Zealand_PW-52.svg.png) ... Train Tunnel ahead?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Canada_-_No_Overtaking.svg/120px-Canada_-_No_Overtaking.svg.png) ... No Parallel Parking?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/Brasil_A-44.svg/64px-Brasil_A-44.svg.png) ... Windy in Florida (or California) or Palms Farting ahead?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Brasil_A-19.svg/64px-Brasil_A-19.svg.png) ... Potholes ahead?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Qu%C3%A9bec_D-350.svg/64px-Qu%C3%A9bec_D-350.svg.png) ... Road Deteriorates ahead?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Colombia_SP-42.svg/64px-Colombia_SP-42.svg.png) ... Falling Rock (this is used in California - Calif Sign Code W50-1)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Ontario_Wa-30.svg/64px-Ontario_Wa-30.svg.png) ... Draw Bridge (although putting "DRAW BRIDGE" on the sign is simpler)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/Ontario_Wa-74.svg/64px-Ontario_Wa-74.svg.png) ... Low Tunnel ahead?
Quote from: NJ on November 25, 2015, 04:09:21 PM
I'm pretty sure most people would understand these symbols (Keep in mind that not everybody understands English either in America), therefore symbolic signs when possible makes more sense regardless of native language;
True but the vast majority (>99%) do and I think some knowledge of English is needed to function in our society and to obtain a drivers license. IMO, using a symbol to replace a single English word (TUNNEL, WINDY, DIP, BUMP, etc) is not worth the trouble of going through the process illustrated by Roadfro to bring in symbols that many Americans may not understand.
Quote from: NJ on November 25, 2015, 04:09:21 PM
Quote from: DaBigE on November 25, 2015, 03:55:12 PM
Quote from: NJ on November 25, 2015, 03:24:03 PM
Quote from: roadfro on November 25, 2015, 03:13:15 PM
Quote from: NJ on November 25, 2015, 11:41:11 AM
Why hasn't MUTCD adopted more internationally recognized symbolic signs as Canada, Europe and most other countries in the world? We have too many word only signs that could easily be replaced with symbolic ones'. Sure, we use more and more symbolic signs but still not enough.
The reason why the MUTCD isn't rapidly expanding symbols is that the requirements with symbols require study before being included. Any new symbols are supposed to be approved by FHWA for experimentation prior to being implemented, then study is required after implementation. Compare with word signs, where MUTCD provisions allow jurisdictions to create appropriate word message signs whenever no standard sign exists for the purpose.
If Canada and other countries already uses internationally recognized symbol, there shouldn't be any reason why America shouldn't with or without the study. Tunnel, Bridge, Bump, Hump, Dip are examples that should be symbolic for sure.
You forget that everyone is not a world traveler. Just because other countries use it doesn't necessarily mean all drivers will understand it here. Hell, I work with road signs on a regular basis, and there's many international ones that I have to look up the meaning of myself.
I'm pretty sure most people would understand these symbols (Keep in mind that not everybody understands English either in America), therefore symbolic signs when possible makes more sense regardless of native language;
...
It's been a while since I've seen results from a sign comprehension test, but from what I recall from some older ones, you would be surprised at the results. The motoring public is not as smart as you think they are. While not directly related to this thread topic...the number which don't know the difference between Stop and Yield is mind boggling.
Quote from: DaBigE on November 25, 2015, 05:00:58 PM
While not directly related to this thread topic...the number which don't know the difference between Stop and Yield is mind boggling.
Not really. I see a ton of people treating stop signs as if they were yield signs. :rolleyes:
^^ As I have said before: Never underestimate the stupidity of the average driver.
The countries below in red will understand our road signs. Those in grey probably won't. Remember that the tourism industry, like pretty much every other country in the world, is a massive part of our GDP. Now yes, more people speak English than ever before in history, but there's no telling how
well they can speak English (in other words, can they decipher an incoming sign quickly?). I speak Spanish moderately well, but it still takes me a minute to comprehend what it is that I'm reading.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0c/Countries_where_over_50%25_of_the_population_are_native_English_speakers.png/640px-Countries_where_over_50%25_of_the_population_are_native_English_speakers.png)
Quote from: myosh_tino on November 25, 2015, 04:57:38 PM
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Colombia_SP-42.svg/64px-Colombia_SP-42.svg.png ... Falling Rock (this is used in California - Calif Sign Code W50-1)
By your logic, that's an exploding mountain. In the context of driving, people can comprehend these signs moderately well. Worst case scenario, they learn these new symbols in drivers ed, and the symbols are introduced with an accompanying plaque. If I remember correctly, the "stop ahead" symbol sign was introduced with a text "stop ahead" below the sign itself, to help "slow" drivers figure out what that sign meant.
Quote from: Big John on November 25, 2015, 05:10:15 PM
^^ As I have said before: Never underestimate the stupidity of the average driver.
Never over-estimate the number of people who can read English at-speed. Err, that was out of context. My bad.
Quote from: DaBigE on November 25, 2015, 04:53:23 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 25, 2015, 04:44:46 PM
I wish someone could explain to me why "narrow bridge" was removed. I still see it all the time, but I know it ain't in the manual:
Probably too subtle for most drivers to understand. Those familiar with maps can figure it out (since the brackets are typically used to denote a bridge or overpass), but not the average schmoe. It only gets worse as GPS and Google Maps continue to replace paper maps. Kind of like why Do Not Enter and Yield signs still have words on them.
I have seen a couple locations use that symbol sign as a generic road narrows alternative.
They could have just added a supplementary plaque? No reason to do away with the entire symbol. The chance of us learning the symbol was good. People would have eventually learned to associate the symbol with the narrow-ness of the road.
I don't necessarily think the symbol should have been relegated to bridges though, so I'm pleased to see the symbol being used for other purposes. It's a good "road narrows" alternative, even if it was meant for bridges.
Supplementary plaques can be used, and many of those are common sense that a person with a normal brain and vision could figure out what they stand for. Let's not pretend to be retarded now.
Quote from: myosh_tino on November 25, 2015, 04:57:38 PM
Hmm....
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/New_Zealand_PW-52.svg/64px-New_Zealand_PW-52.svg.png) ... Train Tunnel ahead?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Canada_-_No_Overtaking.svg/120px-Canada_-_No_Overtaking.svg.png) ... No Parallel Parking?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/Brasil_A-44.svg/64px-Brasil_A-44.svg.png) ... Windy in Florida (or California) or Palms Farting ahead?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Brasil_A-19.svg/64px-Brasil_A-19.svg.png) ... Potholes ahead?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Qu%C3%A9bec_D-350.svg/64px-Qu%C3%A9bec_D-350.svg.png) ... Road Deteriorates ahead?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Colombia_SP-42.svg/64px-Colombia_SP-42.svg.png) ... Falling Rock (this is used in California - Calif Sign Code W50-1)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Ontario_Wa-30.svg/64px-Ontario_Wa-30.svg.png) ... Draw Bridge (although putting "DRAW BRIDGE" on the sign is simpler)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/Ontario_Wa-74.svg/64px-Ontario_Wa-74.svg.png) ... Low Tunnel ahead?
Quote from: NJ on November 25, 2015, 04:09:21 PM
I'm pretty sure most people would understand these symbols (Keep in mind that not everybody understands English either in America), therefore symbolic signs when possible makes more sense regardless of native language;
True but the vast majority (>99%) do and I think some knowledge of English is needed to function in our society and to obtain a drivers license. IMO, using a symbol to replace a single English word (TUNNEL, WINDY, DIP, BUMP, etc) is not worth the trouble of going through the process illustrated by Roadfro to bring in symbols that many Americans may not understand.
Quote from: NJ on November 25, 2015, 04:09:21 PM
I'm pretty sure most people would understand these symbols (Keep in mind that not everybody understands English either in America), therefore symbolic signs when possible makes more sense regardless of native language;
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/New_Zealand_PW-52.svg/64px-New_Zealand_PW-52.svg.png) Why is a tunnel warning even necessary?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Canada_-_No_Overtaking.svg/120px-Canada_-_No_Overtaking.svg.png) This almost made it into the 2009 MUTCD (with optional educational plaque), but there was some concern that it wasn't readily understood. It is not immediately evident that the left car is passing the other. It might make sense in the context of a two-lane road, but there are other instances where "do not pass" is used.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/Brasil_A-44.svg/64px-Brasil_A-44.svg.png) Not sure that this would make sense in places that don't have palm trees...
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Brasil_A-19.svg/64px-Brasil_A-19.svg.png) This is not immediately evident that it means "dips".
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Qu%C3%A9bec_D-350.svg/64px-Qu%C3%A9bec_D-350.svg.png) I've seen this pavement ends symbol before. I'm not sure if it was ever in the MUTCD...if it was, it was removed.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Colombia_SP-42.svg/64px-Colombia_SP-42.svg.png) A similar "Falling Rock" design was introduced in the 2009 MUTCD.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Ontario_Wa-30.svg/64px-Ontario_Wa-30.svg.png) I would support this sign's inclusion in the manual. This is pretty clear.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/Ontario_Wa-74.svg/64px-Ontario_Wa-74.svg.png)
This one could work.
The palm tree is way too specific to a few areas of the country. What if I am unfamiliar with this variety of tree?
The Québec grimacing cloud blowing squiggly arrows all over the road is the only "wind" sign I will ever accept.
I agree that "dip" picture would only be clear with prior knowledge, much like would be the case with an English word to a non-speaker. Less so with "bump," but still not all that clear.
I understood "narrow bridge" (I always just considered it "narrow road") before I could read. I don't know what is unclear about this indicating a road that narrows.
I just threw this together in Illustrator...thoughts?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQj8rqiJ.png&hash=4b1c3337cc4c7f9b2353495f8ce8e38616268daf)
Quote from: jakeroot on November 25, 2015, 07:32:26 PM
I just threw this together in Illustrator...thoughts?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQj8rqiJ.png&hash=4b1c3337cc4c7f9b2353495f8ce8e38616268daf)
Heh, not bad although it looks like the car's front axle has fallen away. :)
I think I've posted this before, but I'll post it again:
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5725/21990805500_022d8c4589_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/zvfCjY)
Standard Canadian No Right Turn on Red Sign (https://flic.kr/p/zvfCjY) by Sign Geek (https://www.flickr.com/photos/135438121@N07/), on Flickr
I like Canadian 'No left turn on red' sign... Wish USA adopted the same
Quote from: SignGeek101 on November 25, 2015, 09:03:59 PM
I think I've posted this before, but I'll post it again:
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5725/21990805500_022d8c4589_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/zvfCjY)
Standard Canadian No Right Turn on Red Sign (https://flic.kr/p/zvfCjY) by Sign Geek (https://www.flickr.com/photos/135438121@N07/), on Flickr
Quote from: myosh_tino on November 25, 2015, 08:50:23 PM
Heh, not bad although it looks like the car's front axle has fallen away. :)
Perhaps a little extreme. :-D
Here's something for wind. Shows a wind sock, common in other country's 'wind ahead' signs:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQ0pOMIQ.png&hash=4923ab933ede889b48cde04e9ff18cea876347f4)
Quote from: roadfro on November 25, 2015, 06:56:37 PM
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/Brasil_A-44.svg/64px-Brasil_A-44.svg.png ... Not sure that this would make sense in places that don't have palm trees...
The point is to at least show a tall object bending over from a visibile strong wind. Tree or otherwise, the point gets across.
Quote from: jakeroot on November 25, 2015, 07:32:26 PM
I just threw this together in Illustrator...thoughts?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQj8rqiJ.png&hash=4b1c3337cc4c7f9b2353495f8ce8e38616268daf)
Nice... I like it actually :bigass: However, without car on pictogram could also be used
Quote from: jakeroot on November 25, 2015, 04:44:46 PM
Quote from: roadfro on November 25, 2015, 03:13:15 PM
The MUTCD has actually been moving more toward symbolization. The 2009 version introduced several new symbols, in part based
I wish someone could explain to me why "narrow bridge" was removed. I still see it all the time, but I know it ain't in the manual:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Peru_road_sign_narrow_bridge.svg/140px-Peru_road_sign_narrow_bridge.svg.png)
I really liked this sign and it seemed to be almost universal, at least here on Florida.. Now new digs have NARROW BRIDGE text signs
Quote from: jakeroot on November 25, 2015, 09:21:40 PM
Here's something for wind. Shows a wind sock, common in other country's 'wind ahead' signs:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQ0pOMIQ.png&hash=4923ab933ede889b48cde04e9ff18cea876347f4)
Looks more like a construction barrel that got blown over to me.
Quote from: GaryV on November 25, 2015, 10:22:19 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 25, 2015, 09:21:40 PM
http://i.imgur.com/Q0pOMIQ.png
Looks more like a construction barrel that got blown over to me.
Hmm, I can see that. Though hopefully the surrounding environment (a bridge, open area, etc) would provide the context necessary for comprehension.
Quote from: jakeroot on November 25, 2015, 11:24:45 PM
Quote from: GaryV on November 25, 2015, 10:22:19 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 25, 2015, 09:21:40 PM
http://i.imgur.com/Q0pOMIQ.png
Looks more like a construction barrel that got blown over to me.
Hmm, I can see that. Though hopefully the surrounding environment (a bridge, open area, etc) would provide the context necessary for comprehension.
Combined with roadfro's post (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=16910.msg2108251#msg2108251) we have the reason why so many signs have remained simple one or two-word messages. In order for a sign to be useful, its message has to be clear, quick to understand, and lack ambiguity.
Quote from: jakeroot on November 25, 2015, 09:21:40 PM
Quote from: myosh_tino on November 25, 2015, 08:50:23 PM
Heh, not bad although it looks like the car's front axle has fallen away. :)
Perhaps a little extreme. :-D
Here's something for wind. Shows a wind sock, common in other country's 'wind ahead' signs:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQ0pOMIQ.png&hash=4923ab933ede889b48cde04e9ff18cea876347f4)
Quote from: roadfro on November 25, 2015, 06:56:37 PM
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/Brasil_A-44.svg/64px-Brasil_A-44.svg.png ... Not sure that this would make sense in places that don't have palm trees...
The point is to at least show a tall object bending over from a visibile strong wind. Tree or otherwise, the point gets across.
How about a some banners on a flagpole, or a single, generic flag perhaps shown bending the pole instead? Borrow the maritime high wind flags as a symbol? On second thought, the latter probably wouldn't test well, especially in the middle of the continent.
Quote from: jakeroot on November 25, 2015, 09:21:40 PM
Quote from: myosh_tino on November 25, 2015, 08:50:23 PM
Heh, not bad although it looks like the car's front axle has fallen away. :)
Perhaps a little extreme. :-D
Here's something for wind. Shows a wind sock, common in other country's 'wind ahead' signs:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQ0pOMIQ.png&hash=4923ab933ede889b48cde04e9ff18cea876347f4)
Quote from: roadfro on November 25, 2015, 06:56:37 PM
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/Brasil_A-44.svg/64px-Brasil_A-44.svg.png ... Not sure that this would make sense in places that don't have palm trees...
The point is to at least show a tall object bending over from a visible strong wind. Tree or otherwise, the point gets across.
That might work. Some states, such as Nebraska, use such windsocks at the tops of freeway overpasses.
As mentioned earlier, there is no reason why the highway depts. could post both the picture and the meaning on the more obscure signs.
Here's a great example:
http://thumb7.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/3185393/323238755/stock-photo-black-and-yellow-school-bus-stop-ahead-sign-323238755.jpg
Quote from: mrsman on December 06, 2015, 07:55:42 AM
As mentioned earlier, there is no reason why the highway depts. could post both the picture and the meaning on the more obscure signs.
Here's a great example:
http://thumb7.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/3185393/323238755/stock-photo-black-and-yellow-school-bus-stop-ahead-sign-323238755.jpg
Latest 2009 MUTCD actually added pictogram sign for that similar to yours...
Why should we change for the sake of the world??? We're Murica! We can do whatever the hell we want! If the world don't like it, they can keep their ass at home!!!
Now that I have vented the redneck out..... :bigass:
I interpreted California's falling rock sign as BLASTING ZONE when I first saw NJ's original post. But then myosh_tino said it meant FALLING ROCK and I could see that also. My idea for a FALLING ROCK symbol sign: the black silhouette of Wylie E. Coyote holding a small umbrella over his head with a rock over him with vertical lines indicating a downward motion.
I don't see NO PASSING in that sign on NJ's original post of it. That would definitely cause confusion.
Quote from: jakeroot on November 25, 2015, 09:21:40 PM
Quote from: myosh_tino on November 25, 2015, 08:50:23 PM
Heh, not bad although it looks like the car's front axle has fallen away. :)
Perhaps a little extreme. :-D
Here's something for wind. Shows a wind sock, common in other country's 'wind ahead' signs:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQ0pOMIQ.png&hash=4923ab933ede889b48cde04e9ff18cea876347f4)
I do like the idea of using the European-style wind sock image (without the up-arrow) for areas where heavy winds are common, pointing in the most common direction of the high crosswinds. Also follow the European practice of mounting large wind socks where the high winds are common.
Although I don't have an image handy, I'd also like to see the European 'watch for congested traffic' warning image (the head-on profile of several cars superimposed on each other) used here in North America. There is a place here in Appleton where such a sign is badly needed.
Use supplemental text plates under the signs for the first 10-20 years of their use to cover the 'Drivers Ed' issue for their meaning.
Mike
Quote from: DaBigE on November 26, 2015, 12:36:12 AM
How about a some banners on a flagpole, or a single, generic flag perhaps shown bending the pole instead? Borrow the maritime high wind flags as a symbol? On second thought, the latter probably wouldn't test well, especially in the middle of the continent.
Still trying to figure out how to best utilize the available space, but I think this is sufficient:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FI9hbAyK.png&hash=5fda6a907c522122bc86a7e2ab57a4f6d3d9e829)
I remember reading somewhere that text signs compared to symbols catch the motorist's attention more. It could be wrong but I remember seeing that factoid somewhere.
Tangentially, why did the stop sign make it to so much of the world, including the English word "STOP" itself (usually)? How many other eight-sided red colored signs are there?
Quote from: bzakharin on December 09, 2015, 03:43:22 PM
Tangentially, why did the stop sign make it to so much of the world, including the English word "STOP" itself (usually)? How many other eight-sided red colored signs are there?
The red colour and octagonal shape are unique to stop signs, as you mention. The wording is simply a reminder of what the shape means, should somebody need it.
Most countries use their own language, or a white hand. Not sure if any other country besides majority-English speaking countries use the English "STOP" (although there is the potential that "stop" is the same in other languages).
Quote from: Mergingtraffic on December 09, 2015, 12:32:29 PM
I remember reading somewhere that text signs compared to symbols catch the motorist's attention more. It could be wrong but I remember seeing that factoid somewhere.
That seems like a long-shot but I'm all ears if it's true.
Quote from: mgk920 on December 06, 2015, 12:29:16 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 25, 2015, 09:21:40 PM
Quote from: myosh_tino on November 25, 2015, 08:50:23 PM
Heh, not bad although it looks like the car's front axle has fallen away. :)
Perhaps a little extreme. :-D
Here's something for wind. Shows a wind sock, common in other country's 'wind ahead' signs:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQ0pOMIQ.png&hash=4923ab933ede889b48cde04e9ff18cea876347f4)
I do like the idea of using the European-style wind sock image (without the up-arrow) for areas where heavy winds are common, pointing in the most common direction of the high crosswinds. Also follow the European practice of mounting large wind socks where the high winds are common.
Nebraska does exactly that where high winds might be common along I-80.
Example: https://goo.gl/maps/cCJxM2dhJTw
Quote from: jakeroot on December 09, 2015, 04:01:41 PMNot sure if any other country besides majority-English speaking countries use the English "STOP"
Turkey is the only European country I'm aware of that uses a word other than English STOP. Even European countries that use the Cyrillic alphabet have English STOP.
Quote from: kphoger on December 09, 2015, 05:25:52 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 09, 2015, 04:01:41 PM
Not sure if any other country besides majority-English speaking countries use the English "STOP"
Turkey is the only European country I'm aware of that uses a word other than English STOP. Even European countries that use the Cyrillic alphabet have English STOP.
The Vienna convention allows either "STOP" or the language equivalent of the country, which is basically another way of saying "the red octagon is the only important bit". I assume most countries don't use the stop sign enough to give a damn what the text says.
Outside of Europe (ex bits of Ireland and Turkey, evidently), my original point still stands.
Quote from: jakeroot on December 09, 2015, 10:03:28 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 09, 2015, 05:25:52 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 09, 2015, 04:01:41 PM
Not sure if any other country besides majority-English speaking countries use the English "STOP"
Turkey is the only European country I'm aware of that uses a word other than English STOP. Even European countries that use the Cyrillic alphabet have English STOP.
The Vienna convention allows either "STOP" or the language equivalent of the country, which is basically another way of saying "the red octagon is the only important bit". I assume most countries don't use the stop sign enough to give a damn what the text says.
Outside of Europe (ex bits of Ireland and Turkey, evidently), my original point still stands.
https://goo.gl/maps/L7mUD3X4SCs
Come to think of it, how many countries don't use a red octagon at all (other than Japan, which uses a red triangle).
Quote from: SignGeek101 on December 09, 2015, 10:20:38 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 09, 2015, 10:03:28 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 09, 2015, 05:25:52 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 09, 2015, 04:01:41 PM
Not sure if any other country besides majority-English speaking countries use the English "STOP"
Turkey is the only European country I'm aware of that uses a word other than English STOP. Even European countries that use the Cyrillic alphabet have English STOP.
The Vienna convention allows either "STOP" or the language equivalent of the country, which is basically another way of saying "the red octagon is the only important bit". I assume most countries don't use the stop sign enough to give a damn what the text says.
Outside of Europe (ex bits of Ireland and Turkey, evidently), my original point still stands.
https://goo.gl/maps/L7mUD3X4SCs
Come to think of it, how many countries don't use a red octagon at all (other than Japan, which uses a red triangle).
The red octagon is fairly standard. Zimbabwe uses a black cross. The Vienna Convention provides for a circle with an upside-down triangle as well.
Indonesia is a fairly isolated example. Most Asian countries use their local language.
Quote from: kphoger on December 09, 2015, 05:25:52 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 09, 2015, 04:01:41 PMNot sure if any other country besides majority-English speaking countries use the English "STOP"
Turkey is the only European country I'm aware of that uses a word other than English STOP. Even European countries that use the Cyrillic alphabet have English STOP.
I know Turkey has a small bit in Europe. But it is mostly in Asia.
Quote from: jakeroot on December 09, 2015, 10:03:28 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 09, 2015, 05:25:52 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 09, 2015, 04:01:41 PM
Not sure if any other country besides majority-English speaking countries use the English "STOP"
Turkey is the only European country I'm aware of that uses a word other than English STOP. Even European countries that use the Cyrillic alphabet have English STOP.
The Vienna convention allows either "STOP" or the language equivalent of the country, which is basically another way of saying "the red octagon is the only important bit". I assume most countries don't use the stop sign enough to give a damn what the text says.
Outside of Europe (ex bits of Ireland and Turkey, evidently), my original point still stands.
When I lived in Volgograd, Russia, I saw your typical, English STOP sign at the exit from a lot that contained a market and a small circus. Only one I saw when I was there.
Quote from: Rothman on December 14, 2015, 09:38:32 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 09, 2015, 10:03:28 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 09, 2015, 05:25:52 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 09, 2015, 04:01:41 PM
Not sure if any other country besides majority-English speaking countries use the English "STOP"
Turkey is the only European country I'm aware of that uses a word other than English STOP. Even European countries that use the Cyrillic alphabet have English STOP.
The Vienna convention allows either "STOP" or the language equivalent of the country, which is basically another way of saying "the red octagon is the only important bit". I assume most countries don't use the stop sign enough to give a damn what the text says.
Outside of Europe (ex bits of Ireland and Turkey, evidently), my original point still stands.
When I lived in Volgograd, Russia, I saw your typical, English STOP sign at the exit from a lot that contained a market and a small circus. Only one I saw when I was there.
There was one in St. Petersburg (then Leningrad) in a park (or maybe next to) near where I lived. It would be around here somewhere: https://www.google.com/maps/@59.9926878,30.3502073,16z though no idea if it's still there
An actual "rough road ahead" graphical sign installed in the US: https://goo.gl/maps/w3o97k75JH72
^ That is the old "pavement ends" sign.
Quote from: roadfro on December 15, 2015, 12:47:35 AM
^ That is the old "pavement ends" sign.
I didn't realize that sign was "old" until I checked the current MUTCD and saw that it refers only to the "PAVEMENT ENDS (W8-3) word message sign" . Was the graphical sign decertified?
Quote from: briantroutman on December 15, 2015, 12:51:28 AM
Quote from: roadfro on December 15, 2015, 12:47:35 AM
^ That is the old "pavement ends" sign.
I didn't realize that sign was "old" until I checked the current MUTCD and saw that it refers only to the "PAVEMENT ENDS (W8-3) word message sign" . Was the graphical sign decertified?
Both the text and symbol versions were in the 1988 MUTCD, but the symbol was removed in the Millennium Edition (the next full edition).
Not sure the rationale on that one...the symbol seems fairly intuitive.
Quote from: kphoger on December 09, 2015, 05:25:52 PMEven European countries that use the Cyrillic alphabet have English STOP.
Typically written as СТОП (the Cyrillic letters 'es' 'te' 'o' and 'pe').
Quote from: jwolfer on December 09, 2015, 10:59:48 PMI know Turkey has a small bit in Europe. But it is mostly in Asia.
So is Russia! ;)
Turkey's a member of the Council of Europe (OK, so are Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan), the UNECE (all the former Soviet Republics are in it), plays soccer as a UEFA nation (Israel's inclusion is understandable, Kazakhstan tolerable, but Turkey would be serious contenders for every competition, and would qualify for every world cup if it was in the AFC. Then again, Australia moved to the AFC from the OFC to have some decent opposition), NATO member, an EU candidate state (and is looking like it wants to be fast-tracked), etc
No one seems to have a problem calling Cyprus 'European', why then Turkey, which is in both. Sporcle, which are really anal on this sort of thing, put it (and Cyprus) in Europe (and the Caucauses in Asia).