I'm sharing locations where there is a permanent green light that never changes.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lake+Pkwy,+Milwaukee,+WI+53207/@42.9875746,-87.8878933,3a,75y,143.58h,90.62t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sGy3n0GNex7ZU51swWA1HIg!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x8805179ba5c780e9:0xddaaba71ed9f295f
The first location is Wis 794 at Oklahoma Ave. A jug handle ramp was built in the southeast quadrant due to a lack of space for a full interchange. The intersection was modified so southbound traffic doesn't have to stop and traffic from Oklahoma to 794 south merges from the left.
The next one is at Wis 145 north and Fond Du Lac Ave in Milwaukee. Wis 145 becomes a freeway here and there is a protected left turn signal onto Fond Du Lac Ave. Northbound traffic has an eternal green.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/6800-6842+W+Fond+Du+Lac+Ave,+Milwaukee,+WI+53218/@43.1073926,-87.9977796,3a,75y,327h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1staGOOVwNHF1CNm7DN6F3lw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x88051cc383b0361d:0xf288a6bf4f285132
National Ave northeast and I-894/I-41 south ramp in West Allis, WI. Left turns can yield at a flashing yellow or turn with the green light.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/10105+W+National+Ave,+West+Allis,+WI+53227/@42.9981072,-88.0390754,3a,75y,38.47h,86.09t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s-2ouzTulkwEh-sEltQivmQ!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x88050f8f2ab080bb:0x3ecbc35c4cf8d64
The last one is County BB and I-41 north ramp in Appleton, WI. The traffic signals heading east look normal but never turn red. Traffic turning left can yield when there isn't a green arrow.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/3998+W+Prospect+Ave,+Appleton,+WI+54914/@44.2437988,-88.4659553,3a,75y,107.13h,73.53t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1slt-vUbZB0kWeTL6o1jOINA!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x8803b7f163e7a04b:0x4296d86092d905af
Anyone else have locations of an eternal green?
Delaware, Ohio: US 23 northbound at S Sandusky St
Columbus, Ohio: Fifth Ave westbound at western Leonard Ave intersection; left turns from Leonard to Fifth are separated from the eternal green flow by pylons.
Here's a permanent right-turn green arrow signal (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.7781033,-117.8406364,3a,17.2y,284.4h,92.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sggj-YaSMs93JT3rkF-Y7OA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) where US 30 turns from west along Broadway St to north along 10th St in Baker City OR. This intersection's also one of several in Oregon where you can see a stop sign with another sign that reads "Right turn permitted without stopping" posted below it.
Another one (https://www.google.com/maps/@28.3739427,-81.4256738,3a,75y,351.21h,88.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEQJ36mUoKRndmEq7cRbRxg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) when traveling northbound on John Young Pkwy at FL 417 in Hunters Creek.
I swear there was another one at a mall entrance somewhere but I can't find it.
Troy MI. Westbound 14 Mile Rd just west of I-75. There's a double left turn lane to the SB entrance ramp with full signals. But the 2 through lanes have an eternal green arrow.
Westbound Ecorse Road at I-275 in Van Buren Township MI has double right turn lanes with eternal greens.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.249203,-83.4362956,3a,75y,270.34h,75.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGM4OOLyVDDDm4gLh_tz-5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
(BTW, the pavement has been replaced since this street view was made -- Wonder of Wonders in Michigan!)
FL A1A at FL 404 in South Patrick Shores, FL has a right lane continuous green where the arrow never goes out.
NB John Young Parkway at the FL 417 SB ramp in Hunters Creek, FL has two of them as its only a left turn signal light with the SB lanes. Both have 24/7 greens there for straight through
SB FL 535 at Osceola Parkway has a left turn signal at the EB ramp. No need for the SB lanes to stop ever, but only added two permanent arrows just recently. Originally only the turning lanes has a red signal and the straight through had nothing, until Osceola County added a brand new mast arm there. Only side mounts were used for the left turn signals which were removed for the now present mast arm planted on the right side of the roadway going SB spanning over all the SB lanes.
I brought this up before but EB US 90 at I-310 in LA, has a full signal that never turns red. Only the the WB lanes does for the permissive left turn allowed going from EB US 90 to the NB interstate. IMO permanent arrows should be used there going EB while the permissive turn should get a flashing red arrow allowing motorists to turn left when the WB lanes have a full green and the green arrow for when the traffic is stopped going WB.
Brice Rd. southbound @ I-70, Columbus, OH:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9313346,-82.8309782,3a,75y,184.75h,94.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbtCz7yrf-CPmDEaB8TU4Lw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
Baltimore-Reynoldsburg Rd. southbound @ I-70, Reynoldsburg, OH:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9322084,-82.7892209,3a,75y,172.57h,93.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHUkdORG8tNIm3gFsDH3CWQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
N. Fairfield Rd. northbound at I-675, Beavercreek, OH:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7772396,-84.052543,3a,75y,12.17h,93.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sy-xum6P72qn8IU4w_-FSwA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
US 42 southbound at I-275, Sharonville, OH:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sharonville,+OH/@39.2889307,-84.3954458,3a,75y,192.51h,92.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYWeaCOoSQ78bDoepMnFGhg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x8840519d6dd91233:0xf42b814177910313!6m1!1e1
Permanent right turn light (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0612433,-80.9569035,3a,75y,228.77h,83.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-AZwLNQUubVvcvbQ4D7V8g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), located at the southbound exit ramp at Gold Hill Road, near Tega Cay, South Carolina.
And this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0662094,-80.84503,3a,75y,8.7h,90.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAIrtpkbD9AAFc_JZJT54Vg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) use to exist till the end of 2014, the two regular signals were always on green with only the left turning lane changing. Gone now thanks to a fly-over, this setup existed a good decade.
Permanent green right turn arrow for the far right lane on US 1 south that leads to the I-95/128 entrance ramp at the 'jughandle' in Peabody, MA. It's a holdover from the days before I-95 between Danvers and Lynnfield was completed, and I-95 traffic had to use a short section of US 1.
287 EB exit for Hutchinson River Parkway, left lane (to Hutch northbound) is always green.
I'm surprised I wasn't beaten to the punch on this one (Western Ave WB to Northway):
https://goo.gl/maps/UfJmWGqfkUq
Actually, I also like that intersection from this angle. We really do not want you to enter!
https://goo.gl/maps/X7U27UHsArQ2
The right green arrow here in Marple Twp, PA where PA 320 splits off of Springfield Rd is permanently green as that lane splits off and doesn't conflict with any other movements in the intersection.
We have a bunch of them here in Brevard County FL along US1, and the one roadman65 mentioned above along A1A by Patrick AFB. They can use them along parts of US1 because in places the road is right along the lagoon without a sidewalk on that side so they don't need crosswalks.
Typical style around here is to give the left lane a standard set of lights and give the right lane or two a green arrow:
US1 at Port Malabar Blvd in Palm Bay (https://www.google.com/maps/place/4657-4699+Dixie+Hwy+NE,+Palm+Bay,+FL+32905/@28.024113,-80.5740987,3a,75y,339h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1syPmWiLhM-ZRW55JEc_AQqw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x88de13a7094cb617:0x1c483802ac9f822d)
US1 at Cherry Lane in Melbourne (https://www.google.com/maps/place/675-689+S+Harbor+City+Blvd,+Melbourne,+FL+32901/@28.0996594,-80.6128165,3a,75y,344.96h,88.77t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sgh3vQ7XOTqQZQr4aR3I1Yg!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x88de11c0d3ea2dfd:0x2cb3b319f3ef4d4d)
Quote from: realjd on March 25, 2016, 07:06:39 PM
We have a bunch of them here in Brevard County FL along US1, and the one roadman65 mentioned above along A1A by Patrick AFB. They can use them along parts of US1 because in places the road is right along the lagoon without a sidewalk on that side so they don't need crosswalks.
Typical style around here is to give the left lane a standard set of lights and give the right lane or two a green arrow:
US1 at Port Malabar Blvd in Palm Bay (https://www.google.com/maps/place/4657-4699+Dixie+Hwy+NE,+Palm+Bay,+FL+32905/@28.024113,-80.5740987,3a,75y,339h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1syPmWiLhM-ZRW55JEc_AQqw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x88de13a7094cb617:0x1c483802ac9f822d)
US1 at Cherry Lane in Melbourne (https://www.google.com/maps/place/675-689+S+Harbor+City+Blvd,+Melbourne,+FL+32901/@28.0996594,-80.6128165,3a,75y,344.96h,88.77t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sgh3vQ7XOTqQZQr4aR3I1Yg!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x88de11c0d3ea2dfd:0x2cb3b319f3ef4d4d)
There used to be quite a few continuous green right lanes around Jacksonville and the rest of Florida when the cross street only went to one side, especially on busy roads. Most have been changed to standard traffic lights. From what I read it was for safety; pedestrian and drivers. People would switch lanes quickly to not get caught at a red light. Also the left or fast lane was stopped, not expected.
When I was going to the University of North Florida in the early 1990s the entrance off St Johns Bluff Rd had one. Now it SJB Rd in that area is The i295 East beltway
A decent number of them in Chicagoland:
* SB Quentin Road at Euclid Avenue near Palatine: Streetview (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0870514,-88.0631428,3a,75y,191.22h,89.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1zLIR9XD55T63MzykpXOdw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)
* SB Meacham Road at Schaumburg Road in Schaumburg: Streetview (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.028924,-88.0457177,3a,75y,210.7h,87.5t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUN81YnPI9nOMoLBeV42Aww!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DUN81YnPI9nOMoLBeV42Aww%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D183.05418%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)
* The Martingale Road intersection with Schaumburg Road in Schaumburg has two: One for SB to WB, and one for EB to SB. SB Streetview (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0256398,-88.0318435,3a,75y,172.65h,68.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgxtFAx9y1lOCQh_kYfQHgw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)EB Streetview (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0251847,-88.0322559,3a,75y,84.94h,82.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siZ952f4eZMTT_17MgILDxg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)
* WB IL 58 to NB McConnor Parkway in Schaumburg: Streetview (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0508701,-88.0304293,3a,75y,299.72h,83.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9V-c0WjoR-puxIBzACS50g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)
* I believe SB I-355 to WB US 20/Lake Street has one, but it's not show on Streetview.
* EB Fabyian Parkway to EB IL 38 recently had one added
* I believe there is at least one, maybe two in McHenry County leading onto WB/SB Rakow Road.
theres one on NY 106-107 in Hicksville at Bethpage Road, and on NY 110 in Melvile.
Ive noticed sometimes they just don't bother posting anything, just the turn arrow lights. Seen that in South Nashua on Spit Brook Road.
Very popular in seagull intersections (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seagull_intersection), like this one in Everett, Washington:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Seagull_intersection_CGTL_on_Broadway_in_Everett%2C_Washington_%28flickr18779519629%29.jpg/1024px-Seagull_intersection_CGTL_on_Broadway_in_Everett%2C_Washington_%28flickr18779519629%29.jpg)
(Broadway & 40th Street (https://www.google.com/maps/place/47%C2%B057'53.5%22N+122%C2%B012'03.5%22W/@47.9644938,-122.200876,3a,75y,349h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s0WTxJIdYjPzz7BgAoIrasA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D0WTxJIdYjPzz7BgAoIrasA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D392%26h%3D106%26yaw%3D349.94659%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0))
Wow, all the way to post #20 before anybody brought up this (http://www.funnysigns.net/light-never-turns-green/).
Quote from: empirestate on March 26, 2016, 12:36:46 AM
Wow, all the way to post #20 before anybody brought up this (http://www.funnysigns.net/light-never-turns-green/).
Perhaps because we're discussing eternal
green lights...:hmmm:
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 25, 2016, 11:31:34 PM
A decent number of them in Chicagoland:
* SB Quentin Road at Euclid Avenue near Palatine: Streetview (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0870514,-88.0631428,3a,75y,191.22h,89.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1zLIR9XD55T63MzykpXOdw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)
* SB Meacham Road at Schaumburg Road in Schaumburg: Streetview (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.028924,-88.0457177,3a,75y,210.7h,87.5t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUN81YnPI9nOMoLBeV42Aww!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DUN81YnPI9nOMoLBeV42Aww%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D183.05418%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)
* The Martingale Road intersection with Schaumburg Road in Schaumburg has two: One for SB to WB, and one for EB to SB. SB Streetview (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0256398,-88.0318435,3a,75y,172.65h,68.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgxtFAx9y1lOCQh_kYfQHgw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)EB Streetview (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0251847,-88.0322559,3a,75y,84.94h,82.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siZ952f4eZMTT_17MgILDxg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)
* WB IL 58 to NB McConnor Parkway in Schaumburg: Streetview (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0508701,-88.0304293,3a,75y,299.72h,83.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9V-c0WjoR-puxIBzACS50g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)
* I believe SB I-355 to WB US 20/Lake Street has one, but it's not show on Streetview.
* EB Fabyian Parkway to EB IL 38 recently had one added
* I believe there is at least one, maybe two in McHenry County leading onto WB/SB Rakow Road.
The one I bolded really brought back a memory. My doctor's office was in that white 2 story building back in the 80's!
You also covered all the one's that I can remember (I lived off of Martingale in the late 80's). I haven't seen an eternal green (that I am aware of, anyway) since I left Schaumburg in 1991.
Quote from: roadfro on March 26, 2016, 03:39:57 AM
Quote from: empirestate on March 26, 2016, 12:36:46 AM
Wow, all the way to post #20 before anybody brought up this (http://www.funnysigns.net/light-never-turns-green/).
Perhaps because we're discussing eternal green lights...:hmmm:
I have not known that to stop people from changing the subject in other threads, and almost immediately to boot.
Eternal green right turn arrows at NY 104 at Ridgeway Ave. in Rochester.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1943579,-77.6274675,3a,75y,268.65h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saGOVrKvlhXxZ-liYO0ud8g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en
Quote from: empirestate on March 26, 2016, 12:36:46 AM
Wow, all the way to post #20 before anybody brought up this (http://www.funnysigns.net/light-never-turns-green/).
When I first saw this thread I was about to post that, which is exactly the opposite:
Quote from: NE2 on February 02, 2013, 05:41:13 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3-ec.buzzfed.com%2Fstatic%2Fimagebuzz%2Fweb05%2F2011%2F8%2F31%2F11%2Fthis-light-never-turns-green-1368-1314806212-30.jpg&hash=31cf66672edf6b924f23372374d687ef72f193ee)
End thread.
AFAIK it now turns green.
Jericho Turnpike (NY 25) westbound at East Deer Park Road (Suffolk CR 66) in Deer Park, NY. There's literally nothing for the green arrow for vehicles going straight to change to.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8361562,-73.3351109,3a,75y,231.01h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxehV2ktNzNGoSP9F9V9grg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
This intersection (https://goo.gl/maps/VmwfQ2pYPow) on US 15 at PA 304 in Winfield used to have an upward facing arrow outline over the green light until about 2010, but for some reason, it was removed.
On the other hand, this intersection (https://goo.gl/maps/PcdFabD5W3o) at US 220 and PA 287 near Jersey Shore has always (to my recollection) had a standard green ball despite the fact that the through lanes never go red.
CR 111 east of the NY 27 interchange, Suffolk County NY (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8431387,-72.7217757,3a,15y,112.77h,91.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSDSLbp-dIKKLLdsYWKrVgQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
These pedestrian signals (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6561962,-122.3122659,3a,75y,0.95h,78.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHXv8Mv27odBEIdGIT9tRLw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en) are always on walk.
Here's (https://www.google.com/maps/@46.9927632,-123.8860548,3a,15y,105.94h,94.07t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUxlsbUYJ65N4K2GKAUkQEw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DUxlsbUYJ65N4K2GKAUkQEw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D263.19022%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en) another example at a non-signalized intersection, in Hoquiam.
The Ashland, KY/OH bridge across the Ohio River has an interesting pseudo-interchange. WB traffic on US52 doesn't have to stop at the intersection, and EB traffic doesn't have to stop because it goes under the bridge. This permanent green arrow is for the WB traffic
https://goo.gl/maps/v6iP69YmroF2
Another example is NB IL50 where it splits off the Governor's Highway (Old US54) at a marginal angle to the left. https://goo.gl/maps/oyGfTUfshjt
Quote from: Bruce on March 26, 2016, 12:31:53 AM
Very popular in seagull intersections (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seagull_intersection), like this one in Everett, Washington:
The South Sound has quite a few...
31 Ave SW @ S Meridian in Puyallup: https://goo.gl/oJZNON
S 38 St @ I-5 in Tacoma: https://goo.gl/uLN3eS
S Sprague Ave @ WA-16 in Tacoma: https://goo.gl/Huqavh
S Orchard St @ WA-16 in Tacoma: https://goo.gl/HzwdZe
W Valley Hwy @ WA-167 in Sumner: https://goo.gl/XtTzWC
US-30 Westbound at the Northwest edge of Portland, OR
https://goo.gl/maps/FLWTb7fXQd72
Sidenote; since this streetview picture was taken, the sign on the gantry has been destroyed by a tanker truck catching on fire!
DE 2, Kirkwood Hwy, in front of a shopping center. Even though there's a road coming in from the right, they simply have a stop sign.
https://goo.gl/maps/4vXzkmNCkST2
On CT 10 northbound in Plainville, CT. Only not green is when it's blinking yellow
https://goo.gl/maps/5oSFVfdMCqF2
Indianapolis has a variation of this at the ramp from westbound Southport Road to northbound Interstate 65.
https://goo.gl/maps/croFzJGZJmr
The light was added when the ramp from northbound 65 to Southport became a signalized intersection but in any case it has always been a ramp from one road onto the freeway, no need to stop traffic at all, especially with the concrete median separating the road from the ramp. What's funny is that when this ramp was closed a few times last year due to construction, the light remained green (even with road closed barriers in front.)
A location that *should* have an eternal green light is here: https://goo.gl/maps/wz65x9wfLf62 Even though the ramp is barrier separated from the other lanes and has no stop line or bar, occasionally you'll get the car that'll stop because the other lights are red.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 28, 2016, 08:37:40 AM
A location that *should* have an eternal green light is here: https://goo.gl/maps/wz65x9wfLf62 Even though the ramp is barrier separated from the other lanes and has no stop line or bar, occasionally you'll get the car that'll stop because the other lights are red.
I totally agree with this- there's a mast arm right there on the right anyway! Just make it a dual mast arm and put a one-section head on there, and you're done!
Two I know of in Illinois are at Lake Street heading west at the I-294 NB entrance. There's one at Rockland Road heading east at the SB I-94 Entrance.
I've seen more around Illinois but I don't remember their locations.
Quote from: Rothman on March 25, 2016, 11:58:51 AM
I'm surprised I wasn't beaten to the punch on this one (Western Ave WB to Northway):
https://goo.gl/maps/UfJmWGqfkUq
Actually, I also like that intersection from this angle. We really do not want you to enter!
https://goo.gl/maps/X7U27UHsArQ2
I always wondered about this intersection seeing as I used to have family nearby in Voorheesville. Are you sure those lights
never go red? There's signals facing the shopping center off to the right plus a crosswalk going across the ramp, so I figure it would go red at SOME point.
As for other eternal green lights, here's another one along PA 291 (Bartram Avenue) at the I-95 southbound onramp near the Philadelphia Airport.
https://goo.gl/maps/VwZnaJji2V62
And here are some eternal green arrow beacons along US 13 northbound at the DE 1 northbound onramp near St. Georges, DE.
https://goo.gl/maps/j4rwm9mspWU2
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 28, 2016, 09:19:44 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 28, 2016, 08:37:40 AM
A location that *should* have an eternal green light is here: https://goo.gl/maps/wz65x9wfLf62 Even though the ramp is barrier separated from the other lanes and has no stop line or bar, occasionally you'll get the car that'll stop because the other lights are red.
I totally agree with this- there's a mast arm right there on the right anyway! Just make it a dual mast arm and put a one-section head on there, and you're done!
I think some bollards or a railing might do the trick as well.
Quote from: Ian on March 28, 2016, 01:48:11 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 25, 2016, 11:58:51 AM
I'm surprised I wasn't beaten to the punch on this one (Western Ave WB to Northway):
https://goo.gl/maps/UfJmWGqfkUq
Actually, I also like that intersection from this angle. We really do not want you to enter!
https://goo.gl/maps/X7U27UHsArQ2
I always wondered about this intersection seeing as I used to have family nearby in Voorheesville. Are you sure those lights never go red? There's signals facing the shopping center off to the right plus a crosswalk going across the ramp, so I figure it would go red at SOME point.
Go figure. So much for that. I've driven through there a thousand times and they're never red. :D
https://goo.gl/maps/LtqpVM6H8CP2
And then there's the eternal red for right turns (only the left arrow has yellow and green phases):
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9370855,-74.9699092,3a,15y,58.18h,90.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stEyEX3EJyJNhXz9RTA3Jcw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1!6m1!1e1
How common are those?
In Ann Arbor, WB Washtenaw Ave at Stadium Blvd.
Here's a few in Alabama:
Huntsville:
Meridian Street & US 72:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7608131,-86.5754394,3a,66.8y,24.02h,92.66t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1ssyu6j0A4iNDARwDTjGycLQ!2e0
Univeristy Drive (US 72) & Research Park Boulevard (AL 255):
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.741476,-86.6683364,3a,66.8y,104.02h,93.81t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s4ABgjglFc7UXapiYHvXVSg!2e0
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7426177,-86.6717162,3a,66.8y,263.19h,86.87t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1setnTcXda6DZjL-y2_owfOg!2e0
Williams Ave, Echoles Ave, Adams Street, and McClung Ave (the green arrow on the bottom here is always on):
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7295885,-86.580288,3a,55.4y,85.07h,87.18t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sWeUDbBd6IO8oBtGEf3aGAA!2e0
Decatur:
Moulton Street & Gordan Drive:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.6040178,-86.9952082,3a,55.4y,87.14h,89.6t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sYuUSAb_70uLq1vJqO8KtZw!2e0
Florence:
Dr. Hicks Boulevard and Tennessee Street (both here are US 72):
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.8037976,-87.6674391,3a,23.7y,264.63h,91.62t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s3aWiuqVani4bWZahPN6Hpg!2e0
Vestavia Hills has many along US 280:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4212411,-86.6966885,3a,55.4y,286.83h,91.48t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sGijEvQqoDZfjQGRegESeHw!2e0
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4373993,-86.722018,3a,55.4y,299.4h,92.25t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sXq1hgR2lnoFuzpfsC-CsiQ!2e0
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4408904,-86.7278182,3a,55.4y,305.26h,88.89t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sThksoOMeqQhKQUZxXUrVUg!2e0
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4597837,-86.7537971,3a,55.4y,108.68h,90.89t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s93poVQAXaGABWhO_oxkm2g!2e0
The intersection that caused ALDOT to adopt the FYA signal:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4647996,-86.7572651,3a,66.8y,166.74h,89.38t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s-xIvVWuNS-yWD1JalmqYUw!2e0
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4710468,-86.7617121,3a,66.8y,101.01h,93.42t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1stRdR7fJzhLhQoCAGU3-peg!2e0
Quote from: bzakharin on March 28, 2016, 04:03:38 PM
And then there's the eternal red for right turns (only the left arrow has yellow and green phases):
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9370855,-74.9699092,3a,15y,58.18h,90.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stEyEX3EJyJNhXz9RTA3Jcw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1!6m1!1e1
How common are those?
They used to be more common but have generally been phased out over the years. I never knew NJ had one of these lights.
I remember one (it's probably still there) on westbound Valley Blvd. at the north end of I-710 in Los Angeles.
Some Illinois examples of the perpetual right turn arrow.
https://goo.gl/maps/88Bn2Bh4UZq
https://goo.gl/maps/cyFU1F1fZdm
These two below are viewed from the side, because the signals face a stretch of road that isn't updated on GSV:
https://goo.gl/maps/FKZvCXyt4vr
https://goo.gl/maps/9XPJTzms2Sn
CT 9 NB at "Exit 15" in Middletown....
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.56317,-72.6477774,3a,75y,324.32h,78.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEFusx7SzqaTHQJDjeQrMxw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Thru traffic never gets anything but a green light here, as there is no NB entrance at this location.
For the "this light never turns green" comment, CT has several traffic lights at entrances to fire stations. The signals will flash yellow for thru traffic. In the event of an emergency requiring fire/ambulance, the signals will turn red, stopping thru traffic. After the emergency equipment has entered the roadway and cleared, the signal would resume to flashing yellow. Here's an example of one on CT 17 in Durham - there was another one a mile up the road as well:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4679903,-72.6795473,3a,78.2y,338.54h,91.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYO3xoBwpS3yb4bnlGDKFWQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Hard to tell, but the bottom balls on each signal flash yellow. And for some reason, the state/town/whoever hasn't replaced the dead yellow light... it's been that way for more than a couple years.
Quote
For the "this light never turns green" comment, CT has several traffic lights at entrances to fire stations. The signals will flash yellow for thru traffic. In the event of an emergency requiring fire/ambulance, the signals will turn red, stopping thru traffic. After the emergency equipment has entered the roadway and cleared, the signal would resume to flashing yellow. Here's an example of one on CT 17 in Durham - there was another one a mile up the road as well:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4679903,-72.6795473,3a,78.2y,338.54h,91.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYO3xoBwpS3yb4bnlGDKFWQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Hard to tell, but the bottom balls on each signal flash yellow. And for some reason, the state/town/whoever hasn't replaced the dead yellow light... it's been that way for more than a couple years.
Ashwaubenon, WI has signals that flash yellow also in front of their fire station unless emergency crews need to leave
https://www.google.com/maps/place/2101-2155+Holmgren+Way,+Ashwaubenon,+WI+54304/@44.4919327,-88.0575087,3a,66.8y,19.64h,85.92t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1svCTXcy7hyarAhOYvwBkt_A!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x8802fbac3fec388b:0x7bca236b69ec76b6
Another right-turn arrow into a shopping center (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3506291,-77.6685542,3a,50y,185.59h,84.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5baEp4SvEMxjXRDHej4x_g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), this one in (North) Hornell, NY.
The signal near my house always displays a circular green...
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8305149,-72.5549712,3a,27.3y,346.72h,87.41t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0dh3gPWnFCMZN-JgorJViA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664 (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8305149,-72.5549712,3a,27.3y,346.72h,87.41t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0dh3gPWnFCMZN-JgorJViA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664)
...or a right arrow. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8305951,-72.5550027,3a,37.5y,339.86h,87.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWcsEn-egQTGdR02x44AYtw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8305951,-72.5550027,3a,37.5y,339.86h,87.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWcsEn-egQTGdR02x44AYtw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Van Buren, Arkansas (https://goo.gl/maps/7gRcCqtygX72) has a straight ahead arrow that's always green.
There aren't many examples in New York, but I remember seeing a bunch when I lived in Ohio. The Columbus area has several.
Quote from: ILRoad55 on March 28, 2016, 11:05:56 AM
Two I know of in Illinois are at Lake Street heading west at the I-294 NB entrance. There's one at Rockland Road heading east at the SB I-94 Entrance.
I've seen more around Illinois but I don't remember their locations.
It's nowhere close to Chicago, but there's one in Danville, IL on WB US 136 just before it turns onto IL 1.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Froads.mattmajewski.net%2Fimages%2F136150dk.jpg&hash=22b848a9764aaf2dec87d465a4131851fcf3a467)
There is an eternal green light in Branson, Missouri on the ramp from eastbound Shepherd of the Hills Expy. (MO 248, becomes Branson Landing Blvd.) to go northbound on U.S. 65.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.6569131,-93.2211963,3a,15y,97.34h,92.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1safTj2OEPFVSdVNKd1qwLrA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.6569131,-93.2211963,3a,15y,97.34h,92.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1safTj2OEPFVSdVNKd1qwLrA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
https://goo.gl/maps/3QMkV2doo752
There's a permanent green arrow at Hartford Avenue and Winchester Avenue in Atlantic City. Winchester Avenue is two-way when turning right here; the others circulate away from this point.
The GSV shot shows a red light and the green arrow simultaneously, which indicates that you can't drive straight through on Hartford.
I know several off the top of my head in the city of New York.
Platinum Avenue and Staten Island Mall entrace/exit
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Platinum+Ave,+Staten+Island,+NY/@40.5789376,-74.1685603,3a,75y,90.81h,90.26t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sA2nBYR2vicUEV6kfTDkCJg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DA2nBYR2vicUEV6kfTDkCJg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D29.687233%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x89c24b83f06e8b9d:0x2570b69984e02040
The signalized intersection was first built in the early-2000s, and it did not originally have a protected left turn movement. It was added by the NYCDOT sometime after 2007.
Four Corners Rd. and Todt Hill Rd.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5933398,-74.1105689,3a,75y,197.6h,84.93t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sSu4zRqidEKm35VE1vSd-vQ!2e0!5s20120901T000000!7i13312!8i6656
The cross street pedestrian signals are actually actuated, so a person is required to push a nearby button to active the "WALK" phase. Four Corners Rd. and Todt Hill Rd. is one of a handful of intersections on Staten Island that have operable pedestrian push buttons in spite of the fact that many throughout the city of New York have been disconnected from service by the DOT over 30 years ago.
And then there was this oddball at Hillside Av. and 164th St. in Queens, N.Y....
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7087834,-73.7991819,3a,30y,58.59h,90.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sr5GPwKpyRwMl86ymWf8RkA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
The other cluster on the right has a standard three-section (R/A/G) head in use.
Fast forward to present day, and the new setup at the corner looks like this...
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7086517,-73.7992953,3a,15y,41.58h,92.39t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sVtv-AujqgSGKH6iIY4Yg4Q!2e0!5s20150901T000000!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
There's several places in RI that have "eternal greens", except they always put a standard light in, it just never changes.
This one on RI-113 east at the entrance to Post Rd:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7112565,-71.4469081,3a,37.5y,100.3h,77.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHG0yOusl2COVC6hMQeV-NQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
This one on US-1 north, not even a mile from the previous example:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.723155,-71.4406325,3a,75y,7.54h,76.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saxOBgttpis6jZK9RBHez3Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
This one is at RI-401 at RI-4 north:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.662883,-71.4883573,3a,75y,85.6h,75.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_s8RMz87cE147NRYyJurqg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Quote from: doogie1303 on April 04, 2016, 07:48:16 PM
This one is at RI-401 at RI-4 north:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.662883,-71.4883573,3a,75y,85.6h,75.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_s8RMz87cE147NRYyJurqg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
I like how the traffic signals still have their original incandescent amber and red sections intact.
Decatur, Illinois has a BUNCH of these. I was going to state this in the first place, but didn't have many examples on hand to back it up. Now I have found the examples I drove past years ago!
https://goo.gl/maps/2xoJLM47qnR2
https://goo.gl/maps/fX9hyKbZuEx
https://goo.gl/maps/h5BxrTXGmrn
East-central Illinois seems to like these in general... https://goo.gl/maps/nq2dwakk1gL2 (see also the example in Danville, already posted)
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on April 04, 2016, 07:54:21 PM
Quote from: doogie1303 on April 04, 2016, 07:48:16 PM
This one is at RI-401 at RI-4 north:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.662883,-71.4883573,3a,75y,85.6h,75.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_s8RMz87cE147NRYyJurqg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
I like how the traffic signals still have their original incandescent amber and red sections intact.
Well, there's no reason to upgrade those sections to LED since they're never lit.
The intersection of Granger Road (SR-17) and Warner Road in Valley View (Cleveland) OH:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4140583,-81.6374622,3a,75y,80.25h,73.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smeEWUfwjdRsL7WOJDPneYA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
Warner Road traffic must turn right at Granger Road.
Quote from: doogie1303 on April 07, 2016, 07:07:14 PM
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on April 04, 2016, 07:54:21 PM
Quote from: doogie1303 on April 04, 2016, 07:48:16 PM
This one is at RI-401 at RI-4 north:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.662883,-71.4883573,3a,75y,85.6h,75.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_s8RMz87cE147NRYyJurqg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
I like how the traffic signals still have their original incandescent amber and red sections intact.
Well, there's no reason to upgrade those sections to LED since they're never lit.
Then why aren't the signals there just single heads?
In Columbia, SC on Harbison Blvd right off of I-26, there is an eternal green light at the intersection with Saturn Parkway. This eternal green light only exists for traffic heading southwest or away from I-26. Traffic heading northeast or towards I-26 has a regular traffic light that sometimes turns red to allow cars turning right from Saturn Parkway (Walmart, Best Buy, a hotel) to merge. Cars on Saturn Parkway cannot turn left onto Harbison Blvd., thus allowing for the eternal green light there. If that eternal green light didn't exist, traffic would back up horribly on Harbison Blvd., which is already pretty congested.
Quote from: cl94 on April 08, 2016, 08:31:58 AM
Quote from: doogie1303 on April 07, 2016, 07:07:14 PM
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on April 04, 2016, 07:54:21 PM
Quote from: doogie1303 on April 04, 2016, 07:48:16 PM
This one is at RI-401 at RI-4 north:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.662883,-71.4883573,3a,75y,85.6h,75.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_s8RMz87cE147NRYyJurqg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
I like how the traffic signals still have their original incandescent amber and red sections intact.
Well, there's no reason to upgrade those sections to LED since they're never lit.
Then why aren't the signals there just single heads?
Probably because should there be a problem with the signal mechanism, the lights could go into flash mode and either go to an all-flash red or the thru-only lights would flash yellow.
Quote from: thenetwork on April 08, 2016, 11:34:30 AM
Quote from: cl94 on April 08, 2016, 08:31:58 AM
Quote from: doogie1303 on April 07, 2016, 07:07:14 PM
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on April 04, 2016, 07:54:21 PM
Quote from: doogie1303 on April 04, 2016, 07:48:16 PM
This one is at RI-401 at RI-4 north:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.662883,-71.4883573,3a,75y,85.6h,75.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_s8RMz87cE147NRYyJurqg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
I like how the traffic signals still have their original incandescent amber and red sections intact.
Well, there's no reason to upgrade those sections to LED since they're never lit.
Then why aren't the signals there just single heads?
Probably because should there be a problem with the signal mechanism, the lights could go into flash mode and either go to an all-flash red or the thru-only lights would flash yellow.
That doesn't make sense. If the signal were a single head, it should just stay lit as green upon malfunction, while the other lights go into flash mode. In fact, if it were wired right, it couldn't malfunction short of complete power loss or burned out bulb.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 28, 2016, 09:19:44 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 28, 2016, 08:37:40 AM
A location that *should* have an eternal green light is here: https://goo.gl/maps/wz65x9wfLf62 Even though the ramp is barrier separated from the other lanes and has no stop line or bar, occasionally you'll get the car that'll stop because the other lights are red.
I totally agree with this- there's a mast arm right there on the right anyway! Just make it a dual mast arm and put a one-section head on there, and you're done!
I wonder if there is a sign that can be placed instead of a one-section head that can also get the message across. It would be nice if we can save the electricity from adding more signal faces.
It seems like the preferred treatment around Perth, Australia is to leave the straight-through lanes unsignalised with no stop bar, using arrows for all aspects of the turn signals:
https://www.google.com/maps/@-31.9220986,115.8263867,3a,75y,69.7h,75.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sC3bZi9opFs8z10-wAflEaw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@-31.9220986,115.8263867,3a,75y,69.7h,75.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sC3bZi9opFs8z10-wAflEaw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
But there is one intersection I know of that has a continuous green light:
https://www.google.com/maps/@-31.8678271,115.8013963,3a,46.1y,98.59h,84.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siuMazkUxfa5uv0NW-drIAQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@-31.8678271,115.8013963,3a,46.1y,98.59h,84.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siuMazkUxfa5uv0NW-drIAQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
This one is particularly strange because the middle lane is shared, so you have the potential for through traffic to get 'caught' behind cars waiting to turn.
Quote from: mrsman on April 10, 2016, 07:48:42 AM
I wonder if there is a sign that can be placed instead of a one-section head that can also get the message across. It would be nice if we can save the electricity from adding more signal faces.
Something like this, perhaps?
(https://www.mainroads.wa.gov.au/PublishingImages/MR-GT-24.RCN-D13%5E23110177.PNG)
Quote from: bzakharin on April 08, 2016, 11:48:45 AM
Quote from: thenetwork on April 08, 2016, 11:34:30 AM
Quote from: cl94 on April 08, 2016, 08:31:58 AM
Quote from: doogie1303 on April 07, 2016, 07:07:14 PM
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on April 04, 2016, 07:54:21 PM
Quote from: doogie1303 on April 04, 2016, 07:48:16 PM
This one is at RI-401 at RI-4 north:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.662883,-71.4883573,3a,75y,85.6h,75.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_s8RMz87cE147NRYyJurqg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
I like how the traffic signals still have their original incandescent amber and red sections intact.
Well, there's no reason to upgrade those sections to LED since they're never lit.
Then why aren't the signals there just single heads?
Probably because should there be a problem with the signal mechanism, the lights could go into flash mode and either go to an all-flash red or the thru-only lights would flash yellow.
That doesn't make sense. If the signal were a single head, it should just stay lit as green upon malfunction, while the other lights go into flash mode. In fact, if it were wired right, it couldn't malfunction short of complete power loss or burned out bulb.
One aspect to consider might be the color blind, the RYG would denote green to them, even though the R and Y are never lit. But then again, the vast majority of people who drive through an intersection don't think that much about it. If they see green, they go, and they don't worry about why this signal never goes red or yellow. In fact, even for the non color blind, showing R and Y is more familiar to the general public and they wouldn't have to think twice about it.
Quote from: Jet380 on April 10, 2016, 09:43:21 AM
It seems like the preferred treatment around Perth, Australia is to leave the straight-through lanes unsignalised with no stop bar, using arrows for all aspects of the turn signals:
https://www.google.com/maps/@-31.9220986,115.8263867,3a,75y,69.7h,75.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sC3bZi9opFs8z10-wAflEaw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@-31.9220986,115.8263867,3a,75y,69.7h,75.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sC3bZi9opFs8z10-wAflEaw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
This is the preferred treatment where the left turns (or right turns in the case of Australia) are channelized. The left turners will see their traffic signal and act appropriately, and through traffic will just go through and not worry about it. The straight through drivers will not be confused by the left turn signals because of the separation.
Quote from: Jet380 on April 10, 2016, 09:43:21 AM
But there is one intersection I know of that has a continuous green light:
https://www.google.com/maps/@-31.8678271,115.8013963,3a,46.1y,98.59h,84.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siuMazkUxfa5uv0NW-drIAQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@-31.8678271,115.8013963,3a,46.1y,98.59h,84.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siuMazkUxfa5uv0NW-drIAQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
This one is particularly strange because the middle lane is shared, so you have the potential for through traffic to get 'caught' behind cars waiting to turn.
The shared middle lane will actually require having separate indications for straight through traffic, to avoid confusion. But you are right that this is a rare configuration. The only benefit for having a middle lane split would be if turning is the busier movement during some parts of the day and going straight is the busier movement at other times. This situation is usually handled better by split-phasing signals or near-split phased signals.
Quote from: Jet380 on April 10, 2016, 09:43:21 AM
Quote from: mrsman on April 10, 2016, 07:48:42 AM
I wonder if there is a sign that can be placed instead of a one-section head that can also get the message across. It would be nice if we can save the electricity from adding more signal faces.
Something like this, perhaps?
(https://www.mainroads.wa.gov.au/PublishingImages/MR-GT-24.RCN-D13%5E23110177.PNG)
I think the first preference should be using channelizing islands and avoiding having a signal arm over the through lanes whenever possible. (Example: US 395 & SR 209 near Minden, NV (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0271343,-119.7799579,3a,75y,193.89h,79.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSZDf47LoO0g4C-QUJ6J_qQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656))
If there isn't sufficient space for signals in the median, the sign method could work. I'd simply have the legend say "DO NOT STOP (down arrow)".
Almost... Poplar Tent Road at the quarry, west of I-85. Only turns red when trucks are coming out of the quarry... :P
Quote from: roadfro on April 10, 2016, 12:16:12 PM
Quote from: Jet380 on April 10, 2016, 09:43:21 AM
Quote from: mrsman on April 10, 2016, 07:48:42 AM
I wonder if there is a sign that can be placed instead of a one-section head that can also get the message across. It would be nice if we can save the electricity from adding more signal faces.
Something like this, perhaps?
(https://www.mainroads.wa.gov.au/PublishingImages/MR-GT-24.RCN-D13%5E23110177.PNG)
I think the first preference should be using channelizing islands and avoiding having a signal arm over the through lanes whenever possible. (Example: US 395 & SR 209 near Minden, NV (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0271343,-119.7799579,3a,75y,193.89h,79.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSZDf47LoO0g4C-QUJ6J_qQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656))
If there isn't sufficient space for signals in the median, the sign method could work. I'd simply have the legend say "DO NOT STOP (down arrow)".
Here's an example of a sign currently in use:
https://goo.gl/maps/6aPhHHXhP4s
But you can't convey the message with just a sign alone. If there are signals for any traffic, all approaching drivers are going to be looking for their indication. The continuous green is the only way to keep the driver from panicking. Really, it probably doesn't waste that much energy, considering that these continuous green arrows can just be bulbs that stand alone from any signal operation system. In other words, they burn continuously, so they'll only use as much energy as a bulb in an overhead lamp that's always on.
Also, a sign will be harder to see at night.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on April 11, 2016, 11:31:38 AM
Quote from: roadfro on April 10, 2016, 12:16:12 PM
Quote from: Jet380 on April 10, 2016, 09:43:21 AM
Quote from: mrsman on April 10, 2016, 07:48:42 AM
I wonder if there is a sign that can be placed instead of a one-section head that can also get the message across. It would be nice if we can save the electricity from adding more signal faces.
Something like this, perhaps?
(https://www.mainroads.wa.gov.au/PublishingImages/MR-GT-24.RCN-D13%5E23110177.PNG)
I think the first preference should be using channelizing islands and avoiding having a signal arm over the through lanes whenever possible. (Example: US 395 & SR 209 near Minden, NV (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0271343,-119.7799579,3a,75y,193.89h,79.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSZDf47LoO0g4C-QUJ6J_qQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656))
If there isn't sufficient space for signals in the median, the sign method could work. I'd simply have the legend say "DO NOT STOP (down arrow)".
Here's an example of a sign currently in use:
https://goo.gl/maps/6aPhHHXhP4s
But you can't convey the message with just a sign alone. If there are signals for any traffic, all approaching drivers are going to be looking for their indication. The continuous green is the only way to keep the driver from panicking. Really, it probably doesn't waste that much energy, considering that these continuous green arrows can just be bulbs that stand alone from any signal operation system. In other words, they burn continuously, so they'll only use as much energy as a bulb in an overhead lamp that's always on.
Also, a sign will be harder to see at night.
They probably use even less money now with the LED indications.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on April 11, 2016, 11:41:18 AM
They probably use even less money now with the LED indications.
Absolutely! I was going to mention that too but I forgot. ~wavelength~
Here's a thought, I know that in the USA you have to treat any dark signals as an all-way stop. Does this apply to an 'eternal' green light that has burned out or lost power? If so it might be an argument to use a sign over a lamp.
Quote from: Jet380 on April 12, 2016, 01:28:02 AM
Here's a thought, I know that in the USA you have to treat any dark signals as an all-way stop. Does this apply to an 'eternal' green light that has burned out or lost power? If so it might be an argument to use a sign over a lamp.
Personally, that's an argument for a wide, raised median with clear separation from the adjoining turn lane. Drivers should be able to logically infer which signals belong to which movements. A turn arrow for an adjoining turn lane clearly doesn't belong to the through lanes. Yes, some drivers will look for a through signal, but upon noticing A) the hard median between said signal and their lane, and B) the lack of a through signal altogether, will more than likely just continue on with little fanfare.
In conclusion, proper channelization, on its own, should be able to dictate which lanes need not stop. The intersection posted by Roadfro up-thread is an example of a properly-built seagull intersection.
Quote from: Jet380 on April 12, 2016, 01:28:02 AM
Here's a thought, I know that in the USA you have to treat any dark signals as an all-way stop. Does this apply to an 'eternal' green light that has burned out or lost power? If so it might be an argument to use a sign over a lamp.
It depends on the situation, and who uses the intersection. If it's mostly local traffic, after a while motorists don't even 'see' the eternal green light, and would go thru it regardless if it's lit or not. For the most part, eternal green lights don't have intersecting traffic where one would need to stop...or a stop line for traffic to stop at anyway...so the light shouldn't be much of an issue.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 12, 2016, 08:22:50 AM
Quote from: Jet380 on April 12, 2016, 01:28:02 AM
Here's a thought, I know that in the USA you have to treat any dark signals as an all-way stop. Does this apply to an 'eternal' green light that has burned out or lost power? If so it might be an argument to use a sign over a lamp.
It depends on the situation, and who uses the intersection. If it's mostly local traffic, after a while motorists don't even 'see' the eternal green light, and would go thru it regardless if it's lit or not. For the most part, eternal green lights don't have intersecting traffic where one would need to stop...or a stop line for traffic to stop at anyway...so the light shouldn't be much of an issue.
Well, that's the whole idea, isn't it? It shouldn't be an issue at all, but if one were suddenly obliged to stop at a signal that has otherwise been green for its entire existence, would there suddenly be an issue where there should't be one?
On the other hand, is that actually the law in all states? Do some states word it as following the signal's most-restrictive indication, which in the case of an all-green signal would still be green?
Quote from: empirestate on April 12, 2016, 11:04:32 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 12, 2016, 08:22:50 AM
Quote from: Jet380 on April 12, 2016, 01:28:02 AM
Here's a thought, I know that in the USA you have to treat any dark signals as an all-way stop. Does this apply to an 'eternal' green light that has burned out or lost power? If so it might be an argument to use a sign over a lamp.
It depends on the situation, and who uses the intersection. If it's mostly local traffic, after a while motorists don't even 'see' the eternal green light, and would go thru it regardless if it's lit or not. For the most part, eternal green lights don't have intersecting traffic where one would need to stop...or a stop line for traffic to stop at anyway...so the light shouldn't be much of an issue.
Well, that's the whole idea, isn't it? It shouldn't be an issue at all, but if one were suddenly obliged to stop at a signal that has otherwise been green for its entire existence, would there suddenly be an issue where there should't be one?
On the other hand, is that actually the law in all states? Do some states word it as following the signal's most-restrictive indication, which in the case of an all-green signal would still be green?
A regular light's most restrictive indication is "stop and wait for green". I don't think that's what you are supposed to do at a dark signal.
Anyway, what NJ says is "When, by reason of a power failure or other malfunction, a traffic control signal at an intersection is not illuminated, the driver of a vehicle or street car shall, with respect to that intersection, observe the requirement for a stop intersection", which is interesting because it apparently leaves unspecified what you do when a signal is not illuminated for some other reason. Doesn't this make the law unenforceable: "I didn't know it was a malfunction. I thought this signal was just not operational yet"?
Quote from: bzakharin on April 12, 2016, 11:42:26 AM
Quote from: empirestate on April 12, 2016, 11:04:32 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 12, 2016, 08:22:50 AM
Quote from: Jet380 on April 12, 2016, 01:28:02 AM
Here's a thought, I know that in the USA you have to treat any dark signals as an all-way stop. Does this apply to an 'eternal' green light that has burned out or lost power? If so it might be an argument to use a sign over a lamp.
It depends on the situation, and who uses the intersection. If it's mostly local traffic, after a while motorists don't even 'see' the eternal green light, and would go thru it regardless if it's lit or not. For the most part, eternal green lights don't have intersecting traffic where one would need to stop...or a stop line for traffic to stop at anyway...so the light shouldn't be much of an issue.
Well, that's the whole idea, isn't it? It shouldn't be an issue at all, but if one were suddenly obliged to stop at a signal that has otherwise been green for its entire existence, would there suddenly be an issue where there should't be one?
On the other hand, is that actually the law in all states? Do some states word it as following the signal's most-restrictive indication, which in the case of an all-green signal would still be green?
A regular light's most restrictive indication is "stop and wait for green". I don't think that's what you are supposed to do at a dark signal.
Anyway, what NJ says is "When, by reason of a power failure or other malfunction, a traffic control signal at an intersection is not illuminated, the driver of a vehicle or street car shall, with respect to that intersection, observe the requirement for a stop intersection", which is interesting because it apparently leaves unspecified what you do when a signal is not illuminated for some other reason. Doesn't this make the law unenforceable: "I didn't know it was a malfunction. I thought this signal was just not operational yet"?
"other malfunction" would include a burned out bulb.
That said, it's a reason why each direction of travel and each turn lane should have at least 2 signal heads. If one bulb is burned out, or the traffic light pole is knocked over, there's a 2nd, redundant traffic light (and many times, a 3rd & 4th signal) to provide you guidance. "I thought this signal was just not operational yet" isn't much of a defense, as most signals under construction are covered in bags, have Road Construction signage nearby, etc. And even in the absence of all that, if you're approaching a signal that doesn't appear to be lit, slow down and use caution!
Yes, I know, but the letter of the law can be construed to require the motorist to know the reason the light is not operational (power/malfunction vs everything else) which is usually not the case (or cannot be proven anyway) before a penalty can be applied.
Quote from: empirestate on April 12, 2016, 11:04:32 AM
Well, that's the whole idea, isn't it? It shouldn't be an issue at all, but if one were suddenly obliged to stop at a signal that has otherwise been green for its entire existence, would there suddenly be an issue where there should't be one?
On the other hand, is that actually the law in all states? Do some states word it as following the signal's most-restrictive indication, which in the case of an all-green signal would still be green?
If that was the rule in some place, you could argue that an unfamiliar motorist wouldn't know what colour the light is supposed to be (it's dark after all!), so for all they know it might be a flashing red beacon.
Quote from: bzakharin on April 12, 2016, 11:42:26 AM
Anyway, what NJ says is "When, by reason of a power failure or other malfunction, a traffic control signal at an intersection is not illuminated, the driver of a vehicle or street car shall, with respect to that intersection, observe the requirement for a stop intersection", which is interesting because it apparently leaves unspecified what you do when a signal is not illuminated for some other reason. Doesn't this make the law unenforceable: "I didn't know it was a malfunction. I thought this signal was just not operational yet"?
I think 'at an intersection' is the important phrase here. Since the lanes covered by an 'eternal green' light are not crossing any other traffic by design, they probably do not meet the definition as being part of the intersection. Of couse what happens in practice might be something else :D
Perhaps the law includes 'by way of a power failure or other malfunction' might be to stop drivers exploiting cases where the light is clearly not blacked out / broken. For example someone might be at fault when they were turning left at a FYA and say 'Oh well the light was dark for half a second so I treated the intersection as a stop sign' or some other nonsense (not that I think that would fly in any case).
I should probably stop armchair lawyering, given I don't even hold a driver's license in any US state!!!
Quote from: Katavia on April 11, 2016, 08:20:00 AM
Almost... Poplar Tent Road at the quarry, west of I-85. Only turns red when trucks are coming out of the quarry... :P
Similar situation in many factories. Light is only operational for side traffic at shift change times. If it's really a long time, it's probably recommended that the signal operate in flash mode at times when side traffic is not operational.
Quote from: Jet380 on April 12, 2016, 08:03:10 PM
Well, that's the whole idea, isn't it? It shouldn't be an issue at all, but if one were suddenly obliged to stop at a signal that has oFor example someone might be at fault when they were turning left at a FYA and say 'Oh well the light was dark for half a second so I treated the intersection as a stop sign' or some other nonsense (not that I think that would fly in any case).
Point taken...although that excuse wouldn't fly in NJ since we don't have any FYAs here. I doubt most cops would even have a clue what they are!!
Found these three eternal green arrow beacons at the entrance to a shopping plaza in Grand Rapids, MI. Two of them are thru arrows, and the other is a right arrow.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9119977,-85.5412336,3a,33.8y,174.75h,94.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjzbk3Pbty25YIGFFmH8abQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Quote from: CJResotko on November 03, 2023, 11:58:42 AM
Found these three eternal green arrow beacons at the entrance to a shopping plaza in Grand Rapids, MI. Two of them are thru arrows, and the other is a right arrow.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9119977,-85.5412336,3a,33.8y,174.75h,94.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjzbk3Pbty25YIGFFmH8abQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
The one on the left should also have a left arrow as left turns are allowed from that lane.
One in Evansville, IN (Eastbound Lloyd Expressway IN-66). Westbound may get a red light for left turning traffic, but eastbound has no one crossing traffic (at least legally) so the light stays green on and on and on.
https://earth.google.com/web/search/East+Lloyd+Expressway+%26+South+Burkhardt+Road,+Evansville,+IN/@37.97656085,-87.48060222,120.66753387a,0d,60y,86.83078641h,83.76909278t,0r/data=CqcBGn0SdwolMHg4ODZlMmI2OTQwMWNjMTViOjB4MTAwNTBlODYwNDBjNTVjNhkeTfVk_vxCQCEyPPazWN5VwCo8RWFzdCBMbG95ZCBFeHByZXNzd2F5ICYgU291dGggQnVya2hhcmR0IFJvYWQsIEV2YW5zdmlsbGUsIElOGAEgASImCiQJoaLPZxLJR0ARaN7YQUjAR0AZgKIvigi7VsAhgFU9rt6-VsAiGgoWS0JaU3dBLVRxV0hheXRBZjgxUGxydxAC
Quote from: Big John on November 03, 2023, 12:00:21 PM
Quote from: CJResotko on November 03, 2023, 11:58:42 AM
Found these three eternal green arrow beacons at the entrance to a shopping plaza in Grand Rapids, MI. Two of them are thru arrows, and the other is a right arrow.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9119977,-85.5412336,3a,33.8y,174.75h,94.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjzbk3Pbty25YIGFFmH8abQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
The one on the left should also have a left arrow as left turns are allowed from that lane.
These lights are eternally green and entirely unnecessary, especially when everything else at the "intersection" is stop controlled. Just post "do not stop" signs on the approach and be done with it.
Quote from: roadfro on November 04, 2023, 01:19:28 PM
Just post "do not stop" signs on the approach and be done with it.
I'd never advocate for such a sign. I can all too easily imagine someone, having hit another vehicle or pedestrian or whatever, using the "do not stop" sign in his defense.
I have a non MUTCD sign of "KEEP MOVING"
Quote from: kphoger on November 04, 2023, 01:59:17 PM
Quote from: roadfro on November 04, 2023, 01:19:28 PM
Just post "do not stop" signs on the approach and be done with it.
I'd never advocate for such a sign. I can all too easily imagine someone, having hit another vehicle or pedestrian or whatever, using the "do not stop" sign in his defense.
I wouldn't think that, but whatever...
Perhaps it could be something different, such as "keep moving" or "this lane does not stop", per a Reno, NV example entering Meadowood Mall (https://maps.app.goo.gl/pcufbqhmtZHXseJp7) (but not the erroneous FYG version at left). Or even no sign at all. But the main point is that evergreen signals are a waste here.
"Keep Moving" is pretty common in Georgia, mostly at freeway off-ramps with a free right that gets its own lane.
Just remove the sign altogether. I can think of an infinite number of examples of this exact type of setup with no signage at all. Maybe they work, maybe they don't, but I don't see anything unique about the Michigan example that screams "needs supplemental signage".
What I don't get is the stop sign for the opposing direction. I get having traffic entering mall not have a stop or yield condition, so traffic doesn't backup onto the arterial, but traffic leaving the mall doesn't really have the same issue. They probably did it so traffic turning left (towards the ALDI) can constantly keep going, but I doubt either direction has so many cars that it would really be worth the current setup.
Here's one on US 275 EB at the on-ramp to I-80 EB in Omaha, NE: https://maps.app.goo.gl/n4TLte2QtZahGyJo9
I know of several in Massachusetts that have eternal green lights.
There are a few typical installations of eternal green lights around MA like these examples: Fully Protected (Canton) (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2061793,-71.1194337,3a,41.8y,350.32h,91.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srkmmO3Qrril6pgNqtxs8dQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu), FYA (Shrewsbury) (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2815481,-71.6706835,3a,66.6y,205.38h,91.03t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1saHeV8SXMEiGg0T_7ndCZXw!2e0!5s20220701T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DaHeV8SXMEiGg0T_7ndCZXw%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D233.93%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu), and 5-section (Doghouse) (Billerica)* (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5600012,-71.2693371,3a,80.3y,347.31h,80.19t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sw30vR7V2s8AVA0D0K95xrg!2e0!5s20210901T000000!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)...
...but then you have strange examples like this one on the Revere Beach Pkwy (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.40384,-71.0078928,3a,42.8y,216.4h,95.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sR4dlMWfzleMky3dFPJ0_tA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu) where a fully protected left turn signal and a single section thru green is combined into one, four section signal. There used to be another one farther west (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4026699,-71.050135,3a,21.7y,85.02h,90.11t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAMoXlCHloBJtiAxK6uECHw!2e0!5s20191101T000000!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu) but that has been replaced with normal fully protected left turn signals.
There's also this one in Milton (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2608647,-71.0426987,3a,49y,146.83h,81.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szAs2KonhVA9EEqHjA40HMg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu) where SB Granite Ave splits - circular red on the top and a green right turn arrow.
* The Billerica example used to feature a 3 section signal with circular green, yellow arrow and green arrow (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcReI6_p3OS7nGP1nN7gNvS8_9tF0vzjyDCAEQ&usqp=CAU) before it was replaced with a typical 5-section doghouse.
They're not very common in New Hampshire and Maine - Nashua (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7079583,-71.4520562,3a,75y,265.67h,84.62t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1szmcv--iDyL6GxlzEgEoNWQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dzmcv--iDyL6GxlzEgEoNWQ%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D232.25087%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu) and Dover (opposing direction) (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1291326,-70.8408449,3a,31.2y,24.1h,91.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRs3rBGySijY4t2w8cTHdMA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu) in NH I can think of, and only one example in South Portland (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6365192,-70.2586594,3a,75y,122.01h,80.48t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfXl4NjC_p5Z_CBoQ_Tgb_w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DfXl4NjC_p5Z_CBoQ_Tgb_w%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D20.736471%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu) for Maine.
Here's some more continuous green signals in Michigan.
Okemos (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7211984,-84.422704,3a,48.9y,106.8h,100.04t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipMXUaR-0IVUkn8L8OArPVVmfE_oMx-k1n0CmPhN!2e10!3e11!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipMXUaR-0IVUkn8L8OArPVVmfE_oMx-k1n0CmPhN%3Dw900-h600-k-no-pi-10.042160524146809-ya105.64648178062377-ro0-fo100!7i3840!8i1920?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D), near Meridian Mall
Lansing (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7270966,-84.5449897,3a,32.8y,160.84h,93.95t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sSoM_gGFK1Dwoh0cgkKK1kg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-3.95014412306746%26panoid%3DSoM_gGFK1Dwoh0cgkKK1kg%26yaw%3D160.84327700146466!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) - WB I-496 on-off ramps
Just north of Holland, there are multiple setups that have continuous green thru arrows along US-31 between Lakewood Boulevard and Greenly Street. Here's one of them. (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8136739,-86.0890467,3a,15y,334.13h,94.79t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sMXZBoH_nTk1ZZ2hz3zrqmg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-4.786242211771096%26panoid%3DMXZBoH_nTk1ZZ2hz3zrqmg%26yaw%3D334.130682504847!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
Grand Rapids - WB I-96 exit 43B to 28th Street (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9127794,-85.5340899,3a,44.9y,66.38h,94.98t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sYI2trRco32XKIw6oGxAqww!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-4.983968362210717%26panoid%3DYI2trRco32XKIw6oGxAqww%26yaw%3D66.37753334441732!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
Grand Rapids - NB US-131 off ramp to I-96 and M-37 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0169613,-85.6890689,3a,15y,168.4h,95.51t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s7aupbvZyKBEv5yqnhEDQQA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-5.508565861967867%26panoid%3D7aupbvZyKBEv5yqnhEDQQA%26yaw%3D168.40137140062726!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
Kalamazoo, MI - Michigan Avenue and AnnVets Memorial Parkway (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2953375,-85.5691068,3a,15y,242.56h,96.29t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sDe3ike6QT2SyviaiXyjzAA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-6.289373669648995%26panoid%3DDe3ike6QT2SyviaiXyjzAA%26yaw%3D242.56056940147383!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
Saginaw - Remington Street and Sheridan Avenue (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.416014,-83.9356137,3a,20.7y,277.27h,94.17t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sWhJOML-gOTg_jyXkJotmHQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-4.1684798638329426%26panoid%3DWhJOML-gOTg_jyXkJotmHQ%26yaw%3D277.27246927667164!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) (left turn arrow!)
Flushing - Pierson Road and Flushing Road (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0601651,-83.8230492,3a,22.3y,124.97h,112.15t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sHpTcHpiTGROooohWIY7hDQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-22.15464070624715%26panoid%3DHpTcHpiTGROooohWIY7hDQ%26yaw%3D124.97373212306174!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
Here's one in Newport News, VA that I forgot about until I passed them earlier today
https://maps.app.goo.gl/2c1QN4JLqHFSaoed6?g_st=ac
And here's some in Charleston, WV that's beside a very peculiar signal for left turns
https://maps.app.goo.gl/BPSjV4jUavbNKYGq5?g_st=ac
Eastbound Cheyenne Avenue on the west side of Las Vegas has a number of consecutive three-way intersections, due to the "Great Wall of Summerlin" to the south blocking any through traffic. As a result, at each intersection, the rightmost eastbound lane is separated off as a bypass lane that always gets a green light. So if you're passing through the area and not turning, you never have to stop.
Here's an example (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.2182577,-115.3240837,3a,54.4y,86.43h,90.33t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1senxmuSAoa5NvR6tr-N7anQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-0.3333454049252538%26panoid%3DenxmuSAoa5NvR6tr-N7anQ%26yaw%3D86.42516119537088!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) where the Google car was actually using the bypass lane. (If you're not in the bypass lane (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.2182758,-115.3157779,3a,30.1y,90.58h,89.11t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sBuZFQzcGXS5Nipes1d7Slg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0.8890146813965316%26panoid%3DBuZFQzcGXS5Nipes1d7Slg%26yaw%3D90.57991639631219!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D), you can't see the green signal because it's a McCain PV signal that has everything but the bypass lanes masked off.)
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 06, 2024, 08:15:38 AMEastbound Cheyenne Avenue on the west side of Las Vegas has a number of consecutive three-way intersections, due to the "Great Wall of Summerlin" to the south blocking any through traffic. As a result, at each intersection, the rightmost eastbound lane is separated off as a bypass lane that always gets a green light. So if you're passing through the area and not turning, you never have to stop.
Here's an example (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.2182577,-115.3240837,3a,54.4y,86.43h,90.33t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1senxmuSAoa5NvR6tr-N7anQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-0.3333454049252538%26panoid%3DenxmuSAoa5NvR6tr-N7anQ%26yaw%3D86.42516119537088!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) where the Google car was actually using the bypass lane. (If you're not in the bypass lane (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.2182758,-115.3157779,3a,30.1y,90.58h,89.11t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sBuZFQzcGXS5Nipes1d7Slg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0.8890146813965316%26panoid%3DBuZFQzcGXS5Nipes1d7Slg%26yaw%3D90.57991639631219!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D), you can't see the green signal because it's a McCain PV signal that has everything but the bypass lanes masked off.)
I'm surprised they didn't just use a single-section signal with an upwards green arrow there like most other places
Quote from: CJResotko on December 04, 2024, 05:35:14 PMFlushing - Pierson Road and Flushing Road (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0601651,-83.8230492,3a,22.3y,124.97h,112.15t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sHpTcHpiTGROooohWIY7hDQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-22.15464070624715%26panoid%3DHpTcHpiTGROooohWIY7hDQ%26yaw%3D124.97373212306174!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
Quote from: plain on December 05, 2024, 11:32:16 PMHere's one in Newport News, VA that I forgot about until I passed them earlier today
https://maps.app.goo.gl/2c1QN4JLqHFSaoed6?g_st=ac (https://maps.app.goo.gl/2c1QN4JLqHFSaoed6?g_st=ac)
Some nice older heads at both of those, it appears.
Also, I don't think the right-hand signals here at I-65 & TN 255 in Nashville, TN, are ever anything but green:
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0827458,-86.7651046,3a,75y,276.74h,81.49t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s9ND-kNVVlBmZx-8SGYc8sg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D8.513618048252766%26panoid%3D9ND-kNVVlBmZx-8SGYc8sg%26yaw%3D276.74120845356975!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 06, 2024, 08:15:38 AMEastbound Cheyenne Avenue on the west side of Las Vegas has a number of consecutive three-way intersections, due to the "Great Wall of Summerlin" to the south blocking any through traffic. As a result, at each intersection, the rightmost eastbound lane is separated off as a bypass lane that always gets a green light. So if you're passing through the area and not turning, you never have to stop.
Here's an example (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.2182577,-115.3240837,3a,54.4y,86.43h,90.33t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1senxmuSAoa5NvR6tr-N7anQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-0.3333454049252538%26panoid%3DenxmuSAoa5NvR6tr-N7anQ%26yaw%3D86.42516119537088!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) where the Google car was actually using the bypass lane. (If you're not in the bypass lane (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.2182758,-115.3157779,3a,30.1y,90.58h,89.11t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sBuZFQzcGXS5Nipes1d7Slg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0.8890146813965316%26panoid%3DBuZFQzcGXS5Nipes1d7Slg%26yaw%3D90.57991639631219!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D), you can't see the green signal because it's a McCain PV signal that has everything but the bypass lanes masked off.)
Yeah, there's four of those bypass lanes along Cheyenne and that "great wall", at Shady Timber, Hualapai, Fort Apache, and El Capitan. (There used to be another one at Grand Canyon as well, but they took it out in the mid-2000s [you can make out the pavement patching in the 2008 Street View] due to what looks like an emergency access bridge over the flood channel, which interestingly appears to have a motorized gate...) I always kinda assumed that they used regular signal heads here in case they wanted to install signalized pedestrian crossings at some point, but each of these signals is marked for no crossing across Cheyenne—which leaves no signalized crossing of Cheyenne Ave in the 2.7 miles between the 215 and Rampart/Durango (although there is nothing to cross over to except an underutilized sidewalk).
Another example is not too far away, on Lake Mead Blvd at the Best In The West shopping center (https://maps.app.goo.gl/WF4wQ5G4wpRyhUXCA) just east of Rainbow Blvd. This is a three lane roadway with two of the through lanes being bypasses for the continuous green. But unique here is a pedestrian crossing across Lake Mead—so it's possible that the separated through lane signals are not "eternal greens" since they may actually turn red for peds to cross (although I've never seen that happen).
I'm positive I replied to a similar and more recent thread with the same topic.
Southbound Percy Machin Drive in North Little Rock has eternal green arrows at the I-40 eastbound entrance ramp. There is no right movement as there is a railroad track on the other side.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 06, 2024, 08:15:38 AMEastbound Cheyenne Avenue on the west side of Las Vegas has a number of consecutive three-way intersections, due to the "Great Wall of Summerlin" to the south blocking any through traffic. As a result, at each intersection, the rightmost eastbound lane is separated off as a bypass lane that always gets a green light. So if you're passing through the area and not turning, you never have to stop.
Here's an example (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.2182577,-115.3240837,3a,54.4y,86.43h,90.33t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1senxmuSAoa5NvR6tr-N7anQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-0.3333454049252538%26panoid%3DenxmuSAoa5NvR6tr-N7anQ%26yaw%3D86.42516119537088!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) where the Google car was actually using the bypass lane. (If you're not in the bypass lane (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.2182758,-115.3157779,3a,30.1y,90.58h,89.11t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sBuZFQzcGXS5Nipes1d7Slg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0.8890146813965316%26panoid%3DBuZFQzcGXS5Nipes1d7Slg%26yaw%3D90.57991639631219!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D), you can't see the green signal because it's a McCain PV signal that has everything but the bypass lanes masked off.)
So... there's just no way for pedestrians to cross through that entire 2.5-mile stretch without running across 6 lanes of traffic? I get that there aren't really any destinations on the south side of the street, but that still seems like a bad idea. And it's pointless since there are already traffic signals that could easily incorporate an actuated pedestrian phase.
Quote from: jay8g on December 08, 2024, 03:23:08 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on December 06, 2024, 08:15:38 AMEastbound Cheyenne Avenue on the west side of Las Vegas has a number of consecutive three-way intersections, due to the "Great Wall of Summerlin" to the south blocking any through traffic. As a result, at each intersection, the rightmost eastbound lane is separated off as a bypass lane that always gets a green light. So if you're passing through the area and not turning, you never have to stop.
Here's an example (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.2182577,-115.3240837,3a,54.4y,86.43h,90.33t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1senxmuSAoa5NvR6tr-N7anQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-0.3333454049252538%26panoid%3DenxmuSAoa5NvR6tr-N7anQ%26yaw%3D86.42516119537088!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) where the Google car was actually using the bypass lane. (If you're not in the bypass lane (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.2182758,-115.3157779,3a,30.1y,90.58h,89.11t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sBuZFQzcGXS5Nipes1d7Slg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0.8890146813965316%26panoid%3DBuZFQzcGXS5Nipes1d7Slg%26yaw%3D90.57991639631219!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D), you can't see the green signal because it's a McCain PV signal that has everything but the bypass lanes masked off.)
So... there's just no way for pedestrians to cross through that entire 2.5-mile stretch without running across 6 lanes of traffic? I get that there aren't really any destinations on the south side of the street, but that still seems like a bad idea. And it's pointless since there are already traffic signals that could easily incorporate an actuated pedestrian phase.
Not only is there nothing on the south side of Cheyenne (not "not really any destinations" but "zero destinations"), but I'm guessing they don't really
want people on the south side of the street at all. The only thing there is a drainage canal, which they want to keep people out of. What exactly would be the argument
for making it easier to cross? So people could admire the masonry of Summerlin's wall?
I'm not sure why they even bothered building a sidewalk on the south side of Cheyenne at all, to be honest.
(As an aside, I've spent a decent amount of time in this area and it's sort of weird to me how little of it is zoned non-residential. There's basically nothing to do in the area unless you live there.)
Quote from: roadfro on December 07, 2024, 05:26:51 PMAnother example is not too far away, on Lake Mead Blvd at the Best In The West shopping center (https://maps.app.goo.gl/WF4wQ5G4wpRyhUXCA) just east of Rainbow Blvd. This is a three lane roadway with two of the through lanes being bypasses for the continuous green. But unique here is a pedestrian crossing across Lake Mead—so it's possible that the separated through lane signals are not "eternal greens" since they may actually turn red for peds to cross (although I've never seen that happen).
The sign for Lake Mead Blvd. at that intersection is sort of strange because it looks like its face once said "Lake Mead Blvd" but the "Blvd" part was cut off to fit a smaller sign frame. Possibly reused from elsewhere?
That shopping center was in the news recently because the day before your post, someone hacked their video sign to display a rainbow flag and the words "Gay furry pride, bitch". Never a dull moment in Vegas.
NB Oxnard Blvd at Robert Ave, Glenwood Dr, and Citrus Grove Lane in Oxnard, CA have eternal green lights
EB Ventura Blvd at the SB 101 on-ramp in Woodland Hills, CA also has an eternal green.
Before CA 71 was upgraded to a freeway, it had a couple of them (SB at 2nd Street in Pomona, NB at Old Pomona Rd)
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2024, 11:48:42 AMQuote from: jay8g on December 08, 2024, 03:23:08 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on December 06, 2024, 08:15:38 AMEastbound Cheyenne Avenue on the west side of Las Vegas has a number of consecutive three-way intersections, due to the "Great Wall of Summerlin" to the south blocking any through traffic. As a result, at each intersection, the rightmost eastbound lane is separated off as a bypass lane that always gets a green light. So if you're passing through the area and not turning, you never have to stop.
Here's an example (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.2182577,-115.3240837,3a,54.4y,86.43h,90.33t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1senxmuSAoa5NvR6tr-N7anQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-0.3333454049252538%26panoid%3DenxmuSAoa5NvR6tr-N7anQ%26yaw%3D86.42516119537088!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) where the Google car was actually using the bypass lane. (If you're not in the bypass lane (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.2182758,-115.3157779,3a,30.1y,90.58h,89.11t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sBuZFQzcGXS5Nipes1d7Slg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0.8890146813965316%26panoid%3DBuZFQzcGXS5Nipes1d7Slg%26yaw%3D90.57991639631219!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D), you can't see the green signal because it's a McCain PV signal that has everything but the bypass lanes masked off.)
So... there's just no way for pedestrians to cross through that entire 2.5-mile stretch without running across 6 lanes of traffic? I get that there aren't really any destinations on the south side of the street, but that still seems like a bad idea. And it's pointless since there are already traffic signals that could easily incorporate an actuated pedestrian phase.
Not only is there nothing on the south side of Cheyenne (not "not really any destinations" but "zero destinations"), but I'm guessing they don't really want people on the south side of the street at all. The only thing there is a drainage canal, which they want to keep people out of. What exactly would be the argument for making it easier to cross? So people could admire the masonry of Summerlin's wall?
I'm not sure why they even bothered building a sidewalk on the south side of Cheyenne at all, to be honest.
(As an aside, I've spent a decent amount of time in this area and it's sort of weird to me how little of it is zoned non-residential. There's basically nothing to do in the area unless you live there.)
I checked into local bus service out of curiosity. RTC route 218 services this stretch of Cheyenne up to Hualapai, but it's westbound only from Rampart/Durango to Hualapai as part of the turnaround loop (that's about a 1.5-2 miles for the turnaround loop). So not even a need to cross the street for transit.
Literally no reason for the sidewalk to exist on the south side.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2024, 12:00:16 PMQuote from: roadfro on December 07, 2024, 05:26:51 PMAnother example is not too far away, on Lake Mead Blvd at the Best In The West shopping center (https://maps.app.goo.gl/WF4wQ5G4wpRyhUXCA) just east of Rainbow Blvd. This is a three lane roadway with two of the through lanes being bypasses for the continuous green. But unique here is a pedestrian crossing across Lake Mead—so it's possible that the separated through lane signals are not "eternal greens" since they may actually turn red for peds to cross (although I've never seen that happen).
The sign for Lake Mead Blvd. at that intersection is sort of strange because it looks like its face once said "Lake Mead Blvd" but the "Blvd" part was cut off to fit a smaller sign frame. Possibly reused from elsewhere?
That shopping center was in the news recently because the day before your post, someone hacked their video sign to display a rainbow flag and the words "Gay furry pride, bitch". Never a dull moment in Vegas.
I caught that on the VegasIssues Instagram. Hilarious!
Two owned by Nassau County, New York:
Glen Cove (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.87452,-73.6151072,3a,43.7y,229.25h,98.5t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s7DuYWKs_mg_DO3OV-vf-9w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-8.497713985456826%26panoid%3D7DuYWKs_mg_DO3OV-vf-9w%26yaw%3D229.24683465121572!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDEyMC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
Lynbrook (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6571969,-73.6770298,3a,44.4y,30.83h,96.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIg5dOyqVb913isH3nv6oUQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-%20:bigass:%20pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-6.9949744008519446%26panoid%3DIg5dOyqVb913isH3nv6oUQ%26yaw%3D30.83291263943695!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDEyMC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
I know of at least two: First one is CA-91 at Valley View in Buena Park. This was the first time I have ever seen an up arrow as a kid and was infatuated with it since it was on my route to school. Has since been replaced but the green up arrow was kept as a single bulb indicator, but there is still a 3 section signal head.. Google street view selected shows both mast arms in a rare lucky capture mid-replacement.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/AqkyDR25wrx4QbAd7
Second one in Peoria, Ariz. at the intersection of AZ-101 and Grand Av (US-60). Same configuration as above (half diamond), with the exception that the traffic signal phasing gives the left arrow every time the exit ramp traffic is green, unlike the first one, which appears to be independent (?)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/7ovZjmjRLj11MKxX9
Quote from: Jet380 on April 12, 2016, 01:28:02 AMHere's a thought, I know that in the USA you have to treat any dark signals as an all-way stop. Does this apply to an 'eternal' green light that has burned out or lost power? If so it might be an argument to use a sign over a lamp.
I would assume so, at least according to letter of the law, if a traditional three segment light was used for a permanent green, as included in my examples above. Neither of which have crosswalks that would permit a rare, but possible, red cycle. Only time I could ever see such lights not being green is during the very rare chance where the light suddenly recovers power and defaults to all red upon startup, if it even happens. Or if a fault somehow happens that puts it into flash mode.
Quote from: Tendies on January 23, 2026, 03:54:24 AMI know of at least two: First one is CA-91 at Valley View in Buena Park. This was the first time I have ever seen an up arrow as a kid and was infatuated with it since it was on my route to school. Has since been replaced but the green up arrow was kept as a single bulb indicator, but there is still a 3 section signal head.. Google street view selected shows both mast arms in a rare lucky capture mid-replacement.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/AqkyDR25wrx4QbAd7
Second one in Peoria, Ariz. at the intersection of AZ-101 and Grand Av (US-60). Same configuration as above (half diamond), with the exception that the traffic signal phasing gives the left arrow every time the exit ramp traffic is green, unlike the first one, which appears to be independent (?)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/7ovZjmjRLj11MKxX9
Quote from: Jet380 on April 12, 2016, 01:28:02 AMHere's a thought, I know that in the USA you have to treat any dark signals as an all-way stop. Does this apply to an 'eternal' green light that has burned out or lost power? If so it might be an argument to use a sign over a lamp.
I would assume so, at least according to letter of the law, if a traditional three segment light was used for a permanent green, as included in my examples above. Neither of which have crosswalks that would permit a rare, but possible, red cycle. Only time I could ever see such lights not being green is during the very rare chance where the light suddenly recovers power and defaults to all red upon startup, if it even happens. Or if a fault somehow happens that puts it into flash mode.
I really wonder about such a situation. If there is an eternal green, and it comes as part of a RYG housing, I don't see a good reason that the R or Y lights should ever light up, or even be connected to power. I would assume in that case, it powers up to green, even after a power outage.
If no power is showing and you have a RYG housing, there should be treated as an all-way stop. It would be too confusing for the average driver to be aware that this signal is always (not most of the time, but always) green. It also promotes consistency.
Now there are some areas where traffic signals go on flash mode regularly at late night hours. And I believe there is an example earlier in this thread where an eternal green becomes a flashing yellow during the flash mode. There is no new impedance created in the wee hours, but the yellow flash is done for consistency, since likely opposing traffic sees a flashing yellow and the left turn arrow is a flashing red arrow. But that is rare.
The whole point of an eternal green, is that there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that interferes with the movment. No cross traffic. No right turns. No left turns. No pedestrians. The movement is protected by geometry and sees an eternal green as a result.
Of course, the single signal head with the green straight arrow is the most obvious scenario, but there is no reason that you cannot have an eternal green with a RYG signal head.
Ventura Boulevard at US-101 (Exit 27, specifically) has a seagull intersection and thus the single green arrow never changes. I figure at some point it's probably been replaced since the light would have to burn out eventually, but I've never witnessed that.
Quote from: Quillz on January 26, 2026, 01:03:53 AMVentura Boulevard at US-101 (Exit 27, specifically) has a seagull intersection and thus the single green arrow never changes. I figure at some point it's probably been replaced since the light would have to burn out eventually, but I've never witnessed that.
This interchange is an ingenious set up. Three lanes of eastbound Ventura Blvd, but the left lane forces an entry onto the freeway, leaving room for a continuous flow from the freeway off-ramp to the right lane of Ventura (but watch for pedestrians).
There are two signal faces for the straight green arrow. One on the mast arm and one at the near side of the intersection with the off-ramp, along the right side. It is likely very rare for BOTH of those signals to be out due to a burned bulb. (And burned bulbs are likely less and less common overall as traffic signals utilize LED lights). A power outage affecting the entire signal could be more likely, but I doubt that anyone would stop there if power were out.
Quote from: mrsman on January 26, 2026, 12:42:05 PMQuote from: Quillz on January 26, 2026, 01:03:53 AMVentura Boulevard at US-101 (Exit 27, specifically) has a seagull intersection and thus the single green arrow never changes. I figure at some point it's probably been replaced since the light would have to burn out eventually, but I've never witnessed that.
This interchange is an ingenious set up. Three lanes of eastbound Ventura Blvd, but the left lane forces an entry onto the freeway, leaving room for a continuous flow from the freeway off-ramp to the right lane of Ventura (but watch for pedestrians).
There are two signal faces for the straight green arrow. One on the mast arm and one at the near side of the intersection with the off-ramp, along the right side. It is likely very rare for BOTH of those signals to be out due to a burned bulb. (And burned bulbs are likely less and less common overall as traffic signals utilize LED lights). A power outage affecting the entire signal could be more likely, but I doubt that anyone would stop there if power were out.
It's the polar opposite of the Fallbrook Avenue exit just before, which has an off-ramp that leads onto a residential street, which leads to the titular avenue. Both controlled by stop signs, which means that off-ramp is backed up all the way back to Valley Circle, so getting on the 101 there already throws you into a line of cars that you have to weave across.
I've been thinking for years how to fix that off-ramp. Perhaps two signal lights with green arrows? It was very obviously built many decades ago, and the population has grown so much since.
Quote from: mrsman on January 25, 2026, 11:12:28 PMQuote from: Tendies on January 23, 2026, 03:54:24 AMI know of at least two: First one is CA-91 at Valley View in Buena Park. This was the first time I have ever seen an up arrow as a kid and was infatuated with it since it was on my route to school. Has since been replaced but the green up arrow was kept as a single bulb indicator, but there is still a 3 section signal head.. Google street view selected shows both mast arms in a rare lucky capture mid-replacement.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/AqkyDR25wrx4QbAd7
Second one in Peoria, Ariz. at the intersection of AZ-101 and Grand Av (US-60). Same configuration as above (half diamond), with the exception that the traffic signal phasing gives the left arrow every time the exit ramp traffic is green, unlike the first one, which appears to be independent (?)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/7ovZjmjRLj11MKxX9
Quote from: Jet380 on April 12, 2016, 01:28:02 AMHere's a thought, I know that in the USA you have to treat any dark signals as an all-way stop. Does this apply to an 'eternal' green light that has burned out or lost power? If so it might be an argument to use a sign over a lamp.
I would assume so, at least according to letter of the law, if a traditional three segment light was used for a permanent green, as included in my examples above. Neither of which have crosswalks that would permit a rare, but possible, red cycle. Only time I could ever see such lights not being green is during the very rare chance where the light suddenly recovers power and defaults to all red upon startup, if it even happens. Or if a fault somehow happens that puts it into flash mode.
I really wonder about such a situation. If there is an eternal green, and it comes as part of a RYG housing, I don't see a good reason that the R or Y lights should ever light up, or even be connected to power. I would assume in that case, it powers up to green, even after a power outage.
If no power is showing and you have a RYG housing, there should be treated as an all-way stop. It would be too confusing for the average driver to be aware that this signal is always (not most of the time, but always) green. It also promotes consistency.
Now there are some areas where traffic signals go on flash mode regularly at late night hours. And I believe there is an example earlier in this thread where an eternal green becomes a flashing yellow during the flash mode. There is no new impedance created in the wee hours, but the yellow flash is done for consistency, since likely opposing traffic sees a flashing yellow and the left turn arrow is a flashing red arrow. But that is rare.
The whole point of an eternal green, is that there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that interferes with the movment. No cross traffic. No right turns. No left turns. No pedestrians. The movement is protected by geometry and sees an eternal green as a result.
Of course, the single signal head with the green straight arrow is the most obvious scenario, but there is no reason that you cannot have an eternal green with a RYG signal head.
My guess would be they already had RYG signal heads in stock and didnt feel like custom ordering single green up arrows.
At least in the former case (Buena Park, CF), the permanent green seems intentional, given the continued striping and use of the green up arrow, both in the previous RYG housing, and the newer standalone single bulb. In the second case (Peoria, AZ), it almost looks as if the permanent green is entirely accidental, given the lack of striping and painted stop bar that have survived both a resurfacing and widening. Despite there being no plans to change the intersection such to necessitate turning that direction red
I do suppose that light could theoretically go solid red, in the event that power is interrupted and resumes the intersection as all red for a few seconds, though I've never seen a broken light resolve itself.
On the topic of redundant signal indications, there is an intersection near me that never intentionally operates the green left arrow, however at random intervals itll malfunctions and deliver a green arrow every cycle for a few weeks. Not sure why. And a few more intersection that uses a four bulb FYA signal head, but the FYA is permanently disabled. I only know it works because I've seen one malfunction and give FYA once. I've also seen permanent reds facing streets that havent been built. I understand placing signal heads and leaving them dark until the street gets built (if ever), however I'm not sure why they would waste energy and bulbs powering a permanent red that never gets used. Would also be interesting to see a permanent red go green in the event of a malfunction.
Quote from: Quillz on January 26, 2026, 02:34:09 PMQuote from: mrsman on January 26, 2026, 12:42:05 PMQuote from: Quillz on January 26, 2026, 01:03:53 AMVentura Boulevard at US-101 (Exit 27, specifically) has a seagull intersection and thus the single green arrow never changes. I figure at some point it's probably been replaced since the light would have to burn out eventually, but I've never witnessed that.
This interchange is an ingenious set up. Three lanes of eastbound Ventura Blvd, but the left lane forces an entry onto the freeway, leaving room for a continuous flow from the freeway off-ramp to the right lane of Ventura (but watch for pedestrians).
There are two signal faces for the straight green arrow. One on the mast arm and one at the near side of the intersection with the off-ramp, along the right side. It is likely very rare for BOTH of those signals to be out due to a burned bulb. (And burned bulbs are likely less and less common overall as traffic signals utilize LED lights). A power outage affecting the entire signal could be more likely, but I doubt that anyone would stop there if power were out.
It's the polar opposite of the Fallbrook Avenue exit just before, which has an off-ramp that leads onto a residential street, which leads to the titular avenue. Both controlled by stop signs, which means that off-ramp is backed up all the way back to Valley Circle, so getting on the 101 there already throws you into a line of cars that you have to weave across.
I've been thinking for years how to fix that off-ramp. Perhaps two signal lights with green arrows? It was very obviously built many decades ago, and the population has grown so much since.
The Fallbrook exit is really tight. Sadly, I think the only practical improvement would be removing the off-ramp.
It reminds me a lot of the old exit off I-405 at Waterford near the VA hospital in West LA. At one point in time, there was an exit and an entrance there for SB I-405 (and a NB exit at Montana). All of these ramps were removed because they were tight ramps that led directly into residential areas. Traffic was directed to use Wilshire or Sunset instead.
These eternal signals are located in Parkersburg, W. Va.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/FQGkoHnUKwZ9nS7w6
Quote from: TheGinger on March 19, 2026, 07:36:39 AMThese eternal signals are located in Parkersburg, W. Va.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/FQGkoHnUKwZ9nS7w6
I'm fascinated by West Virginia's bypass lanes with the double-red doghouses.
Quote from: PColumbus73 on March 19, 2026, 08:18:06 AMQuote from: TheGinger on March 19, 2026, 07:36:39 AMThese eternal signals are located in Parkersburg, W. Va.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/FQGkoHnUKwZ9nS7w6
I'm fascinated by West Virginia's bypass lanes with the double-red doghouses.
:hmmm:
What do you mean by this? I don't quite understand.
Quote from: TheGinger on March 19, 2026, 08:35:41 AMQuote from: PColumbus73 on March 19, 2026, 08:18:06 AMQuote from: TheGinger on March 19, 2026, 07:36:39 AMThese eternal signals are located in Parkersburg, W. Va.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/FQGkoHnUKwZ9nS7w6
I'm fascinated by West Virginia's bypass lanes with the double-red doghouses.
:hmmm:
What do you mean by this? I don't quite understand.
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.356241,-81.646694,3a,26.2y,148.02h,95.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIrRN884widg7oTNxGBA35A!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-5.085879473214632%26panoid%3DIrRN884widg7oTNxGBA35A%26yaw%3D148.02474051551755!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMxNS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
Quote from: PColumbus73 on March 19, 2026, 08:18:06 AMI'm fascinated by West Virginia's bypass lanes with the double-red doghouses.
:hmmm:
Quote from: TheGinger on March 19, 2026, 08:35:41 AMWhat do you mean by this? I don't quite understand.
Quote from: PColumbus73 on March 19, 2026, 08:41:09 AMhttps://www.google.com/maps/@38.356241,-81.646694,3a,26.2y,148.02h,95.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIrRN884widg7oTNxGBA35A!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-5.085879473214632%26panoid%3DIrRN884widg7oTNxGBA35A%26yaw%3D148.02474051551755!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMxNS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
This harkens to the old days when Kanawha Boulevard [eastbound] on the West Side had a bunch of traffic signals, each with eternal greens on the right lane with the left turn lane separated with Botts' Dots. Back then, there were 7 such intersections along the way: Bream Street, Florida Street, Fitzgerald Street, Park Avenue, Delaware Avenue, Ohio Avenue and Tennessee Avenue. The Florida Avenue intersection is the only one that remains, and it doesn't have an eternal green anymore. If I recall correctly, some of the left turn signals had been upgraded with a double red (but those were in the days before doghouses).
As of 2017, there was at least one such signal remaining at the corner of Kanawha and Greenbrier near the State Capitol. I had never been to Charleston before and we made a left from Greenbrier onto southbound Kanawha and as I completed my turn someone came FLYING through in the other lane going extremely fast (easily 60 mph or more). Startled the shit out of me because I wasn't aware of the configuration and the guy appeared out of nowhere very quickly. At least there were plastic bollards between the lanes (exactly what some comments up the thread have suggested are necessary in these situations). Google Maps shows they removed that configuration sometime between 2019 and 2022.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 23, 2026, 10:41:36 AMAs of 2017, there was at least one such signal remaining at the corner of Kanawha and Greenbrier near the State Capitol. I had never been to Charleston before and we made a left from Greenbrier onto southbound Kanawha and as I completed my turn someone came FLYING through in the other lane going extremely fast (easily 60 mph or more). Startled the shit out of me because I wasn't aware of the configuration and the guy appeared out of nowhere very quickly. At least there were plastic bollards between the lanes (exactly what some comments up the thread have suggested are necessary in these situations). Google Maps shows they removed that configuration sometime between 2019 and 2022.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Florida+St,+Charleston,+WV/@38.345794,-81.6382062,3a,31.3y,44.3h,94.36t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1s0Ty95SDY-j0DLEGwZNLuuA!2e0!5s20230601T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-4.358844389111454%26panoid%3D0Ty95SDY-j0DLEGwZNLuuA%26yaw%3D44.298475552794066!7i16384!8i8192!4m6!3m5!1s0x8848d2c564461003:0x27833bbb7d2c460!8m2!3d38.3672769!4d-81.6599839!16s%2Fg%2F1tmqs1b9?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMxOC4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
There's also this one at the South Side Bridge.
Quote from: PColumbus73 on March 23, 2026, 11:08:02 AMQuote from: 1995hoo on March 23, 2026, 10:41:36 AMAs of 2017, there was at least one such signal remaining at the corner of Kanawha and Greenbrier near the State Capitol. I had never been to Charleston before and we made a left from Greenbrier onto southbound Kanawha and as I completed my turn someone came FLYING through in the other lane going extremely fast (easily 60 mph or more). Startled the shit out of me because I wasn't aware of the configuration and the guy appeared out of nowhere very quickly. At least there were plastic bollards between the lanes (exactly what some comments up the thread have suggested are necessary in these situations). Google Maps shows they removed that configuration sometime between 2019 and 2022.
(link omitted)
There's also this one at the South Side Bridge.
I'll take your word for it because I have not been over that bridge and because the only time I've passed through Charleston since 2017 was in the fall of 2020, and that trip simply involved passing through on the Interstate en route to Ohio to bury my sister-in-law's cremated remains. Given the circumstances of that trip, I was less focused than usual on the roads.
Quote from: PColumbus73 on March 23, 2026, 11:08:02 AMhttps://www.google.com/maps/place/Florida+St,+Charleston,+WV/@38.345794,-81.6382062,3a,31.3y,44.3h,94.36t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1s0Ty95SDY-j0DLEGwZNLuuA!2e0!5s20230601T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-4.358844389111454%26panoid%3D0Ty95SDY-j0DLEGwZNLuuA%26yaw%3D44.298475552794066!7i16384!8i8192!4m6!3m5!1s0x8848d2c564461003:0x27833bbb7d2c460!8m2!3d38.3672769!4d-81.6599839!16s%2Fg%2F1tmqs1b9?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMxOC4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
There's also this one at the South Side Bridge.
I probably mentioned this upstream, but there is another "eternal green" very closeby at the "new" access road to the South Side Bridge (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.350129,-81.6427467,3a,17.1y,316.26h,90.56t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1stVMa82TSoib7bSKrRxvXVA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-0.5603521561940852%26panoid%3DtVMa82TSoib7bSKrRxvXVA%26yaw%3D316.264263960918!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMxOC4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) on the intriguingly differently named Southside Expressway (WV-61) that crosses beneath.
Southside Expressway is still home to several of these. Here's the one at the north end of Corridor G (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.352754,-81.6468854,3a,48.8y,306.6h,98.27t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1snFs-DMYR6jOjnG7a1csZqw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-8.274705388041554%26panoid%3DnFs-DMYR6jOjnG7a1csZqw%26yaw%3D306.60357383882194!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMxOC4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D), also looking [westbound] here (northbound WV-61).
Then there's this one out in front of Morris Harvey (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.3316892,-81.6164823,3a,19.4y,109.04h,89.69t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sRbyMWHQQXkvTR0fhC7VpPw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0.30800165832512505%26panoid%3DRbyMWHQQXkvTR0fhC7VpPw%26yaw%3D109.04148534190705!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMxOC4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) (now the University of Charleston).
In olden days, the "eternal green" for the South Side Bridge access road was much closer to the C&O train station and depot. Also, there used to be one close to there that fell in between the "new" C&P Telephone of West Virginia headquarters (now Frontier Telecom) and the "old" United Fuel headquarters (now part of TC Energy). If I recall correctly, there also used to be ones at 21st Street, 27th Street and 29th Street before that neighborhood got absorbed by the college. All of these were appropriately equipped with Botts' Dots between the through lane and the turn lane.
Growing up, I was always amazed how many folks were caught passing in the left lane when the turn lane signal cycled causing them to stop and stare at the "eternal green" for some two minutes (while usually nobody came out of the side street). Even though they were supposedly designed to allow such, I never ever saw anybody cross over the Botts Dots to get back to the free-flowing right lane.
This thread reminds me that the Virginia DOT is planning to convert the intersection of South Van Dorn Street and Crown Royal Drive (https://maps.app.goo.gl/N7MrcRJ7R8NtBh8m9) here in Fairfax County to a "Continuous Green T." In the Street View image I just linked, traffic in the three northbound thru lanes (the direction the camera is facing) would have a continuous green, while the other side of the road would remain the same. Traffic coming from Crown Royal Drive (the street to the left at that intersection) would turn into a separated acceleration lane. I suppose it wouldn't be a true "eternal green," though, because the pedestrian crosswalk would remain, such that northbound traffic would get a red light when a pedestrian calls for the walk signal. In practice, in almost 25 years of living in the area I've never seen anyone cross at that particular crosswalk.
Here's a link to a .PDF showing what they plan to do there. (https://www.vdot.virginia.gov/media/vdotvirginiagov/projects/northern-virginia/Display-Board---Crown-Royal-Drive---South-Van-Dorn-Street-STARS-Study-Open-House-January-2026_acc01142026_PM.pdf) It's not clear whether there would be any sort of curb or bollards or flexposts to force accelerating traffic to get up to speed before getting over. One potential issue that some of us raised in comments is that the right-side exit point to the Beltway comes up very quickly just north of there (Street View isn't recent enough to show this) such that people will be trying to cut across three lanes of traffic in a very short distance. I think VDOT's viewpoint is, "They should go around the other way on Crown Royal to the next traffic light to the north."
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 23, 2026, 12:44:24 PM"Continuous Green T."
Ah! I have been reading through these new posts and I suppose that it didn't register that this was what these intersections in Charleston were. I've never been on WV 61 (or if I have, it was in pre-road enthusiast days) but I've read about them on VDOT's Innovative Intersections (https://www.vdot.virginia.gov/about/our-system/highways/innovative-intersections/virginia-icap/) page.
Here (https://www.vdot.virginia.gov/about/our-system/highways/innovative-intersections/continuous-green-t/)'s the sub-page for the Green T.
Quote from: PColumbus73 on March 19, 2026, 08:41:09 AMQuote from: TheGinger on March 19, 2026, 08:35:41 AMQuote from: PColumbus73 on March 19, 2026, 08:18:06 AMQuote from: TheGinger on March 19, 2026, 07:36:39 AMThese eternal signals are located in Parkersburg, W. Va.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/FQGkoHnUKwZ9nS7w6
I'm fascinated by West Virginia's bypass lanes with the double-red doghouses.
:hmmm:
What do you mean by this? I don't quite understand.
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.356241,-81.646694,3a,26.2y,148.02h,95.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIrRN884widg7oTNxGBA35A!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-5.085879473214632%26panoid%3DIrRN884widg7oTNxGBA35A%26yaw%3D148.02474051551755!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMxNS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
The double red seems completely pointless, when would that left turn display ever be anything other than green? If it's a yield, and there are no crosswalks or interfering left turns from the cross-street (which there are not), the most restrictive state would only ever be yielding on green.
I get that, under normal circumstances before the advent of the flashing yellow arrow, the doghouse was the standard display for situations like this (at least where fully-protected lefts weren't required), and that a doghouse display installed in this situation was still capable of showing yellow and red orbs...just that they were never used. A double red in this situation seems, well, doubly pointless.
Quote from: jakeroot on March 23, 2026, 04:26:31 PMThe double red seems completely pointless, when would that left turn display ever be anything other than green? If it's a yield, and there are no crosswalks or interfering left turns from the cross-street (which there are not), the most restrictive state would only ever be yielding on green.
I get that, under normal circumstances before the advent of the flashing yellow arrow, the doghouse was the standard display for situations like this (at least where fully-protected lefts weren't required), and that a doghouse display installed in this situation was still capable of showing yellow and red orbs...just that they were never used. A double red in this situation seems, well, doubly pointless.
Although the protected left turn arrow here may seem perfunctory, this left turn lane is arguably the primary route for West Side traffic to access all of the Interstates in all directions, so this intersection is way busier than it looks during the midday.
This intersection with northbound Pennsylvania Avenue (that runs alongside the east side of I-64) is also coordinated with the intersection right behind this one with southbound Pennsylvania Avenue (along the west side of I-64). I'm not sure, but it appears that this signal picks up a protected green left arrow in conjunction with the phase change from red ball to green ball on the signals just behind you here.
You can actually see where the protected green left arrow goes into play if you run GSV up a bit further east onto the Elk River bridge, then turn around and come back. The GSV vehicle gets hit with a yellow ball and stops at the red ball with no traffic queued up on the left turn lane, but rather with everybody still held back with red balls at Penna northbound. (Yes, we actually say "Penn-uh" in Charleston).
Regarding the "double reds" in the doghouse, I can't find a strict redundancy rule in the MUTCD for traffic signals in every such case, but it seems necessary to me to have redundant red balls for any individual signal head that could be displaying a red ball whenever all of the other signal heads could be displaying "greens". As I mentioned previous, the DOH had double reds along here long before the proliferation of the doghouse.
Minnesota has 2 that I know of and an honorable mention:
-Westbound TH 62 at the left turn to southbound I-35E in Mendota Heights
-Northbound TH 280 at Broadway in Lauderdale
Honorable mention:
-Northbound Valley View Road at the left turn to westbound TH 62 in Edina, which will only turn red if you press the pedestrian crossing button
Quote from: Dirt Roads on March 23, 2026, 06:28:57 PMRegarding the "double reds" in the doghouse, I can't find a strict redundancy rule in the MUTCD for traffic signals in every such case, but it seems necessary to me to have redundant red balls for any individual signal head that could be displaying a red ball whenever all of the other signal heads could be displaying "greens". As I mentioned previous, the DOH had double reds along here long before the proliferation of the doghouse.
At least in the National MUTCD there is not any requirement for redundancy for signals serving a turning movement, unless the turning movement is the primary movement at an intersection where the straight movement is prohibited or not possible (T-intersection).
As for the signal at the Kanawha at Pennsylvania: If they wanted redundancy for the red indications they should have added a second head for the left turn. Or used a tower and a biomodal green arrow/yellow arrow section to stay under the 5-section maximum for a signal. If they are that opposed to using a flashing yellow arrow they need to at least put up a Left Turn Signal sign, if not use louvers or programmable red indications.
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 23, 2026, 09:17:09 PMQuote from: Dirt Roads on March 23, 2026, 06:28:57 PMRegarding the "double reds" in the doghouse, I can't find a strict redundancy rule in the MUTCD for traffic signals in every such case, but it seems necessary to me to have redundant red balls for any individual signal head that could be displaying a red ball whenever all of the other signal heads could be displaying "greens". As I mentioned previous, the DOH had double reds along here long before the proliferation of the doghouse.
At least in the National MUTCD there is not any requirement for redundancy for signals serving a turning movement, unless the turning movement is the primary movement at an intersection where the straight movement is prohibited or not possible (T-intersection).
As for the signal at the Kanawha at Pennsylvania: If they wanted redundancy for the red indications they should have added a second head for the left turn. Or used a tower and a biomodal green arrow/yellow arrow section to stay under the 5-section maximum for a signal. If they are that opposed to using a flashing yellow arrow they need to at least put up a Left Turn Signal sign, if not use louvers or programmable red indications.
(bold emphasis mine)
I don't think it's necessary, though. Going back to my point earlier, there is never a phase in which the red orbs are used. They doubled up on the reds, perhaps out of prior habit, but they would never be used.
If there was a state in which the doghouse was red, I would understand louvers or a left turn signal sign, but as it stands, it just cycles between (1) green orb, (2) green orb + green arrow, and (3) green orb + yellow arrow.
There really is no reason to use a flashing yellow arrow here for the same reason. If anything, it might actually be worse since you'd have that interim red between the protected and permissive phases, which in my opinion is, and always has been, completely pointless. That interim red is the only time that red arrow would ever be lit.
PS: These situations would actually be great for a custom flashing yellow arrow signal, with a green arrow, yellow arrow, and flashing yellow arrow display. It would clearly be a left turn signal, and there'd be no needless red arrow that would barely be used.
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 23, 2026, 09:17:09 PMQuote from: Dirt Roads on March 23, 2026, 06:28:57 PMRegarding the "double reds" in the doghouse, I can't find a strict redundancy rule in the MUTCD for traffic signals in every such case, but it seems necessary to me to have redundant red balls for any individual signal head that could be displaying a red ball whenever all of the other signal heads could be displaying "greens". As I mentioned previous, the DOH had double reds along here long before the proliferation of the doghouse.
At least in the National MUTCD there is not any requirement for redundancy for signals serving a turning movement, unless the turning movement is the primary movement at an intersection where the straight movement is prohibited or not possible (T-intersection).
As for the signal at the Kanawha at Pennsylvania: If they wanted redundancy for the red indications they should have added a second head for the left turn. Or used a tower and a biomodal green arrow/yellow arrow section to stay under the 5-section maximum for a signal. If they are that opposed to using a flashing yellow arrow they need to at least put up a Left Turn Signal sign, if not use louvers or programmable red indications.
The double-red configuration follows West Virginia's basic doghouse template. WVDOH standard is that arrows are mounted on their own to the side, not halfway under the red. WV also doesn't use bimodal arrows, which I think is a good move.
There is a similar setup in Morgantown at the WV 7 intersection with the I-68 westbound ramp (https://maps.app.goo.gl/8y61pB1xaxUjSWbJ7) that uses two signals for the left turn lane. I think the double reds as in Charleston work better. I live near the Morgantown example and from time to time see people confused thinking the red applies to the continuous through lane as well even though there is a continuously lit arrow. One signal per lane seems clearer.
Morgantown previously had another continuous through lane setup near the WVU Coliseum (https://maps.app.goo.gl/voWZbT292Ec7qTb28), this one with a protected-only left turn. The signal-controlled through lane got double reds, albeit side by side rather than stacked.
Quote from: Bitmapped on March 24, 2026, 08:17:53 AMI think the double reds as in Charleston work better.
I don't know how you can say that when those double reds in Charleston are literally never programmed to be lit. There may as well not be any red orb at all.
I feel like I'm going completely mad trying to explain this lol.
Quote from: PColumbus73 on March 19, 2026, 08:41:09 AMhttps://www.google.com/maps/@38.356241,-81.646694,3a,26.2y,148.02h,95.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIrRN884widg7oTNxGBA35A!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-5.085879473214632%26panoid%3DIrRN884widg7oTNxGBA35A%26yaw%3D148.02474051551755!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMxNS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
Quote from: jakeroot on March 23, 2026, 04:26:31 PMThe double red seems completely pointless, when would that left turn display ever be anything other than green?
Quote from: jakeroot on March 23, 2026, 09:36:40 PMGoing back to my point earlier, there is never a phase in which the red orbs are used.
Quote from: Bitmapped on March 24, 2026, 08:17:53 AMI think the double reds as in Charleston work better.
Quote from: jakeroot on March 24, 2026, 11:59:35 AMI don't know how you can say that when those double reds in Charleston are literally never programmed to be lit.
That's what makes them work so well. :spin:
In all seriousness, though, that one isn't the only Charleston example that's been brought up in the thread.
Quote from: PColumbus73 on March 23, 2026, 11:08:02 AMhttps://www.google.com/maps/place/Florida+St,+Charleston,+WV/@38.345794,-81.6382062,3a,31.3y,44.3h,94.36t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1s0Ty95SDY-j0DLEGwZNLuuA!2e0!5s20230601T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-4.358844389111454%26panoid%3D0Ty95SDY-j0DLEGwZNLuuA%26yaw%3D44.298475552794066!7i16384!8i8192!4m6!3m5!1s0x8848d2c564461003:0x27833bbb7d2c460!8m2!3d38.3672769!4d-81.6599839!16s%2Fg%2F1tmqs1b9?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMxOC4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
There's also this one at the South Side Bridge.
Quote from: kphoger on March 24, 2026, 12:14:58 PMIn all seriousness, though, that one isn't the only Charleston example that's been brought up in the thread.
Quote from: PColumbus73 on March 23, 2026, 11:08:02 AMhttps://www.google.com/maps/place/Florida+St,+Charleston,+WV/@38.345794,-81.6382062,3a,31.3y,44.3h,94.36t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1s0Ty95SDY-j0DLEGwZNLuuA!2e0!5s20230601T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-4.358844389111454%26panoid%3D0Ty95SDY-j0DLEGwZNLuuA%26yaw%3D44.298475552794066!7i16384!8i8192!4m6!3m5!1s0x8848d2c564461003:0x27833bbb7d2c460!8m2!3d38.3672769!4d-81.6599839!16s%2Fg%2F1tmqs1b9?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMxOC4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
There's also this one at the South Side Bridge.
Cheers. I did miss that.
Quote from: PColumbus73 on March 23, 2026, 11:08:02 AMhttps://www.google.com/maps/place/Florida+St,+Charleston,+WV/@38.345794,-81.6382062,3a,31.3y,44.3h,94.36t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1s0Ty95SDY-j0DLEGwZNLuuA!2e0!5s20230601T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-4.358844389111454%26panoid%3D0Ty95SDY-j0DLEGwZNLuuA%26yaw%3D44.298475552794066!7i16384!8i8192!4m6!3m5!1s0x8848d2c564461003:0x27833bbb7d2c460!8m2!3d38.3672769!4d-81.6599839!16s%2Fg%2F1tmqs1b9?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMxOC4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
There's also this one at the South Side Bridge.
The point that <JakeRoot> is trying to make is that there is a big difference between those two signal arrangements. In the case of the South Side Bridge intersection (with Ferry Street, ergo the access road to WV-61 beneath), the left turn signal is usually set at "red ball" when the opposing traffic signal head from the bridge is displaying a "green ball"; on the other hand, the Kanawha Boulevard traffic signal for the left turn onto Pennsylvania Avenue is assumed to be the primary movement for traffic and gets a "green ball" (yield when making the left turn) whenever the opposing traffic signal head from that bridge is also displaying a "green ball".
I shouldn't argue with <JakeRoot> but I feel like my main point was missed here. At the Kanawha Boulevard signal, the left turn signal does indeed display a "double red" quite a bit during both rush hours (seen it myself quite often). Whenever left turn traffic gets backed up in the queue area, the [westbound] signal on Kanawha Boulevard cycles over to give way to the protected left turn green arrow. (This also happens for any Emergency Preempt cycle). After the queue clears out, then you get the perfunctory cycle to display yellow left turn arrow before the "double reds". If I recall correctly, the DOH programmed this signal for a [much longer than normal] 30-second "double reds" display to allow [westbound] Kanawha Boulevard traffic to [almost] clear out before switching back to the "green ball yield when turning left" arrangement. Same thing that I said before but hopefully makes more sense now.
For the record, my grandparents lived just three blocks away and I used to know many of the folks in this neighborhood back then. It was fun watching up close the DOH construct the Interstate through town.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on March 24, 2026, 01:21:11 PMAt the Kanawha Boulevard signal, the left turn signal does indeed display a "double red" quite a bit during both rush hours (seen it myself quite often). Whenever left turn traffic gets backed up in the queue area, the [westbound] signal on Kanawha Boulevard cycles over to give way to the protected left turn green arrow. (This also happens for any Emergency Preempt cycle). After the queue clears out, then you get the perfunctory cycle to display yellow left turn arrow before the "double reds". If I recall correctly, the DOH programmed this signal for a [much longer than normal] 30-second "double reds" display to allow [westbound] Kanawha Boulevard traffic to [almost] clear out before switching back to the "green ball yield when turning left" arrangement. Same thing that I said before but hopefully makes more sense now.
It still doesn't make sense to me. It sounds like you're saying that
opposing traffic gets a red light every so often to allow left-turning traffic its own protected turn. If that's the case, then what does that have to do with the double-red facing that left-turning traffic?
Are you saying it's like this?
[◀⬤⬤] [▲] [▲]
If that's correct, then, again, what's the point of the red balls?
Quote from: Dirt Roads on March 24, 2026, 01:21:11 PMAt the Kanawha Boulevard signal, the left turn signal does indeed display a "double red" quite a bit during both rush hours (seen it myself quite often). Whenever left turn traffic gets backed up in the queue area, the [westbound] signal on Kanawha Boulevard cycles over to give way to the protected left turn green arrow. (This also happens for any Emergency Preempt cycle). After the queue clears out, then you get the perfunctory cycle to display yellow left turn arrow before the "double reds". If I recall correctly, the DOH programmed this signal for a [much longer than normal] 30-second "double reds" display to allow [westbound] Kanawha Boulevard traffic to [almost] clear out before switching back to the "green ball yield when turning left" arrangement. Same thing that I said before but hopefully makes more sense now.
Quote from: kphoger on March 24, 2026, 01:34:16 PMIt still doesn't make sense to me. It sounds like you're saying that opposing traffic gets a red light every so often to allow left-turning traffic its own protected turn. If that's the case, then what does that have to do with the double-red facing that left-turning traffic?
Are you saying it's like this?
[◀⬤⬤] [▲] [▲]
No. It is a green left turn arrow (and of course, the opposing traffic is set to "red ball"). From a Traffic Engineer point-of-view, this GLTA should be considered the primary traffic flow on the phasing chart. The opposing "green ball" is much less important for traffic flow.
Quote from: kphoger on March 24, 2026, 01:34:16 PMIf that's correct, then, again, what's the point of the red balls?
Irrelevant. But back to the real way that it works. Whenever opposing traffic has waited long enough, then everything cycles back to give Kanawha Boulevard [westbound] the "green ball" for the through movement. Which (in today's world) requires a momentary "All Reds" before kicking back over to a permissive flashing yellow arrow. Except in this case, you really do want to hold back the left turn traffic here for a while until opposing traffic clears out.
Folks making the left turn here already know that they are the primary traffic flow. During rush hour, it's pretty common to see folks making left turns that force opposing traffic to slow down and let them across.
If it weren't so tight, there ought to be two left turn lanes and one through lane here. The far left lane would be for I-64 westbound/US-119 southbound/US-60 westbound. The other left turn lane would be for I-77 southbound/I-64 eastbound // I-77 northbound/I-79 northbound // Virginia Street // Lee Street (US-60 eastbound) // US-119 northbound.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on March 24, 2026, 03:37:54 PMBut back to the real way that it works. Whenever opposing traffic has waited long enough, then everything cycles back to give Kanawha Boulevard [westbound] the "green ball" for the through movement. Which (in today's world) requires a momentary "All Reds" before kicking back over to a permissive flashing yellow arrow. Except in this case, you really do want to hold back the left turn traffic here for a while until opposing traffic clears out.
There's an FYA there? Oh, I missed that. (That brief red light between FYA phases is a minor thing that bothers me.)
Quote from: kphoger on March 24, 2026, 03:56:33 PMQuote from: Dirt Roads on March 24, 2026, 03:37:54 PMBut back to the real way that it works. Whenever opposing traffic has waited long enough, then everything cycles back to give Kanawha Boulevard [westbound] the "green ball" for the through movement. Which (in today's world) requires a momentary "All Reds" before kicking back over to a permissive flashing yellow arrow. Except in this case, you really do want to hold back the left turn traffic here for a while until opposing traffic clears out.
There's an FYA there? Oh, I missed that. (That brief red light between FYA phases is a minor thing that bothers me.)
I think he's just likening the way it [apparently] works in the real world, which is similar to that of the flashing yellow arrows with the interim red after the protected left turn. I also am not a fan, for the record.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on March 24, 2026, 01:21:11 PMI shouldn't argue with <JakeRoot> but I feel like my main point was missed here. At the Kanawha Boulevard signal, the left turn signal does indeed display a "double red" quite a bit during both rush hours (seen it myself quite often). Whenever left turn traffic gets backed up in the queue area, the [westbound] signal on Kanawha Boulevard cycles over to give way to the protected left turn green arrow. (This also happens for any Emergency Preempt cycle). After the queue clears out, then you get the perfunctory cycle to display yellow left turn arrow before the "double reds". If I recall correctly, the DOH programmed this signal for a [much longer than normal] 30-second "double reds" display to allow [westbound] Kanawha Boulevard traffic to [almost] clear out before switching back to the "green ball yield when turning left" arrangement. Same thing that I said before but hopefully makes more sense now.
I appreciate the rundown of its operation. I've never heard of a setup like this. Ostensibly, there is no reason to fully stop left turning traffic with red orbs, as the oncoming traffic simply proceeding on green would already accomplish this task (as left turns off Kanawha have to yield). I don't see why they need to have such a long red orb phase.
Quote from: jakeroot on March 24, 2026, 04:58:43 PMOstensibly, there is no reason to fully stop left turning traffic with red orbs, as the oncoming traffic simply proceeding on green would already accomplish this task (as left turns off Kanawha have to yield). I don't see why they need to have such a long red orb phase.
My response to this can be found in the <FYLA> thread...
Quote from: Dirt Roads on March 24, 2026, 05:16:56 PMQuote from: jakeroot on March 24, 2026, 04:58:43 PMOstensibly, there is no reason to fully stop left turning traffic with red orbs, as the oncoming traffic simply proceeding on green would already accomplish this task (as left turns off Kanawha have to yield). I don't see why they need to have such a long red orb phase.
My response to this can be found in the <FYLA> thread...
While it seems like they do have a red phase here, I would say that even if there were no red phase, having a standard doghouse signal would still be helpful.
With a standard doghouse signal, you know that left turns yield on green orb, left turns protected on green arrow, and left turns prohibited on red orb. The signal face tells you what to expect out of the signal, even if some of the indications are never in fact lit.
I am sure that having a RYG signal is helpful because of its familiarity, even if not strictly necessary because R and Y do not get lit. The eternal green with straight arrow is so common, that putting in a traditional RYG is just simply unnecessary.
Here is a very unique one in Vancouver, BC that probably would not be noteworthy if it was displayed as RYG-GA instead of G-GA. The red and yellow are not ever displayed, but if the red and yellow aspects were present (but not lit) this would be self explanatory:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Quad+Real/@49.2902598,-123.129951,3a,75y,145.33h,87.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sNePBMnMg_gCy0DJ4Pwy1LA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D2.2838424404185247%26panoid%3DNePBMnMg_gCy0DJ4Pwy1LA%26yaw%3D145.33427529519702!7i16384!8i8192!4m15!1m8!3m7!1s0x548673f143a94fb3:0xbb9196ea9b81f38b!2sVancouver,+BC,+Canada!3b1!8m2!3d49.2827291!4d-123.1207375!16zL20vMDgwaDI!3m5!1s0x54867186488e1ac7:0xdb0bf7cf79f2a2fd!8m2!3d49.2902616!4d-123.1291891!16s%2Fg%2F11shpfy222!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
This intersection of Pennsylvania and Constitution in Washington DC used to also be an eternal green with a traditional RYG signal for the straight movement, and R and Y never light up.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/400+Pennsylvania+Ave+NW,+Washington,+DC+20565/@38.8917921,-77.0167723,3a,43.5y,101.15h,86.34t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sxkuYjSsmGmQeNZ6SDTkhgw!2e0!5s20090701T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D3.662957379516996%26panoid%3DxkuYjSsmGmQeNZ6SDTkhgw%26yaw%3D101.1472896364659!7i13312!8i6656!4m6!3m5!1s0x89b7b785c7bb7cd7:0xbe2e7057cc933811!8m2!3d38.8919543!4d-77.0176784!16s%2Fg%2F11f7r1dbxy!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
[With the installation of median bike lanes, the straight movement now has a working red and yellow light.]
SO the WV examples actually do have a red phase. But even if they did not, a traditional doghouse is more readily understood. And the passing car is generally not even aware that there is no skipped red phase.
[In a similar vein, when discussing HAWK signals and other pedestrian crossings, I have made the argument for the more familiar as being safer. HAWKs are still somewhat confusing. THe traditional L.A. mid-block crossing is just as RYG with a flashing red phase in place of the solid red orb. Passersby know that the light may turn red, even if they only pass by during the green phase. But for HAWKs, if you normally pass by when the beacon is off, the fact that it may at times be a red light could be a surprise. There is value in the familiar.]
Quote from: mrsman on March 24, 2026, 11:05:15 PMSO the WV examples actually do have a red phase. But even if they did not, a traditional doghouse is more readily understood. And the passing car is generally not even aware that there is no skipped red phase.
In most of the cases where there is a continuous through lane, the doghouse does have a red phase to allow traffic from the side road to enter.
There are only five cases I can think of in West Virginia where there was a signal solely to facilitate a left turn movement:
- The aforementioned example of Kanawha Blvd at Pennsylvania Avenue in Charleston, where the left turn is protected-permitted.
- WV 10 at I-64, where the left turn is fully protected.
- US 460 at US 52/WV 108 by Princeton, where a ramp terminus was fully signalized from the time the interchange was built even though the conflicting side road traffic was barricaded off for about 20 years. This signal did and does run as a fully protected left turn.
- US 119 for a RCUT U-turn in Charleston, involving the Hickory Road intersection. This is a fully protected U-turn movement, with a double red signal head.
- The companion to Item #4. This one just does a fully protected U-turn.
Quote from: jakeroot on March 24, 2026, 11:59:35 AMQuote from: Bitmapped on March 24, 2026, 08:17:53 AMI think the double reds as in Charleston work better.
I don't know how you can say that when those double reds in Charleston are literally never programmed to be lit. There may as well not be any red orb at all.
A number of other Kanawha Blvd intersections had, for years, a continuous through lane with double red doghouse signal where the reds were used. They lost their continuous through lanes about 2015 to facilitate better pedestrian access to the river.
How common is it in the USA for the through movement to just not have any signal at all?
Something like these examples from Mexico:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/nko72CRxr9EtknP18
https://maps.app.goo.gl/vi1FZ3x1RAgu5iMb6
https://maps.app.goo.gl/WAZeGK479HszhDsU6
Quote from: kphoger on March 25, 2026, 10:37:14 AMHow common is it in the USA for the through movement to just not have any signal at all?
At least in my part of the USA, I'd say sporadically from what I've seen:
South Portland, ME (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6365355,-70.2585707,3a,75y,165.6h,92.01t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1suINWr_k7msxnGH7OuM6YYQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-2.013394303516961%26panoid%3DuINWr_k7msxnGH7OuM6YYQ%26yaw%3D165.60465321726502!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyMy4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
Nashua, NH (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7079861,-71.4519079,3a,31.3y,253.73h,97.11t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sS7UtfXn7iNcQgD9MKt89rA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-7.105173028685357%26panoid%3DS7UtfXn7iNcQgD9MKt89rA%26yaw%3D253.72763116523558!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyMy4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
Everett, MA (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4026743,-71.0501321,3a,28.7y,85.46h,90.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sbvNo3aBMgSKaTip3nBSFQg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-0.7233739015180021%26panoid%3DbvNo3aBMgSKaTip3nBSFQg%26yaw%3D85.45898425787728!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyMy4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
Medford, MA (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4085826,-71.0836176,3a,75y,318.8h,84.03t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sFzbp1wNWhfgyWr1RAfZs3A!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D5.967643309857635%26panoid%3DFzbp1wNWhfgyWr1RAfZs3A%26yaw%3D318.8034121687637!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyMy4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
San Jose, CA - Seagull/Continuous Green T (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.3294373,-121.8156943,3a,71.8y,208.62h,91.9t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sRMb1q4Lmr_BrAexfTjZJzg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-1.899021885058417%26panoid%3DRMb1q4Lmr_BrAexfTjZJzg%26yaw%3D208.61815109876468!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyMy4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
Quote from: Bitmapped on March 25, 2026, 10:27:04 AMQuote from: jakeroot on March 24, 2026, 11:59:35 AMQuote from: Bitmapped on March 24, 2026, 08:17:53 AMI think the double reds as in Charleston work better.
I don't know how you can say that when those double reds in Charleston are literally never programmed to be lit. There may as well not be any red orb at all.
A number of other Kanawha Blvd intersections had, for years, a continuous through lane with double red doghouse signal where the reds were used. They lost their continuous through lanes about 2015 to facilitate better pedestrian access to the river.
The mistake I made was assuming we were all talking about the double red along Kanawha underneath the bridge at Pennsylvania Ave. From first glance, it doesn't seem like it could ever go red. Later I realized that it may actually go red, and that there are actually quite a few of these in Charleston that we are talking about. Oops.
Quote from: jakeroot on March 25, 2026, 11:21:53 AMThe mistake I made was assuming we were all talking about the double red along Kanawha underneath the bridge at Pennsylvania Ave. From first glance, it doesn't seem like it could ever go red. Later I realized that it may actually go red, and that there are actually quite a few of these in Charleston that we are talking about. Oops.
Indeed, pretty much all of the upthread discussion about the "double reds" was related to the left turn arrow for the Penna Northbound. But it does beg to discuss why the DOH uses a "double red" for some left turn lanes and not for others. In the cases where the left turn lane always has a "red ball" when the through lanes also have a "red ball", the "double red" is not required. But when the left turn lane could be displaying a "red ball" when the through lanes have a "green ball" (or in these cases, "eternal green" signals) the "double red" is used for what we railroaders call "light out protection". This practice seemingly goes back to the mid-1960s or so in West Virginia. There may be some exceptions, but I can't recall any in my old age.
And since this is the <Eternal Green> thread, I should point out the obvious. On a old-fashioned fourlane expressway in West Virginia (ergo, no turn lanes), whenever the right lane gets an "eternal green" then the left lane signal head always had a "double red". Shotgun marriage, if I'd-uh ever have'un seen it.
My assumption is that the double-reds are used to save space in tight locations or on shorter mast arms, like on Kanawha Blvd and the South Side Bridge. Adding a separate RYG signal might confuse people in the bypass lane.
While doing work for the AARoads Wiki, I found another one in West Virginia, at WV 62 (http://wiki.aaroads.com/wiki/WV_62)'s southern terminus.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/L2FkfyGoYeziUF5Z7
This one only has one bypass lane.
Quote from: fwydriver405 on March 25, 2026, 10:56:32 AMQuote from: kphoger on March 25, 2026, 10:37:14 AMHow common is it in the USA for the through movement to just not have any signal at all?
At least in my part of the USA, I'd say sporadically from what I've seen:
South Portland, ME (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6365355,-70.2585707,3a,75y,165.6h,92.01t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1suINWr_k7msxnGH7OuM6YYQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-2.013394303516961%26panoid%3DuINWr_k7msxnGH7OuM6YYQ%26yaw%3D165.60465321726502!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyMy4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
Nashua, NH (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7079861,-71.4519079,3a,31.3y,253.73h,97.11t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sS7UtfXn7iNcQgD9MKt89rA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-7.105173028685357%26panoid%3DS7UtfXn7iNcQgD9MKt89rA%26yaw%3D253.72763116523558!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyMy4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
Everett, MA (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4026743,-71.0501321,3a,28.7y,85.46h,90.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sbvNo3aBMgSKaTip3nBSFQg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-0.7233739015180021%26panoid%3DbvNo3aBMgSKaTip3nBSFQg%26yaw%3D85.45898425787728!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyMy4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
Medford, MA (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4085826,-71.0836176,3a,75y,318.8h,84.03t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sFzbp1wNWhfgyWr1RAfZs3A!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D5.967643309857635%26panoid%3DFzbp1wNWhfgyWr1RAfZs3A%26yaw%3D318.8034121687637!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyMy4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
San Jose, CA - Seagull/Continuous Green T (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.3294373,-121.8156943,3a,71.8y,208.62h,91.9t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sRMb1q4Lmr_BrAexfTjZJzg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-1.899021885058417%26panoid%3DRMb1q4Lmr_BrAexfTjZJzg%26yaw%3D208.61815109876468!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyMy4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
One here in Huntsville, AL, as well:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7134583,-86.6886603,3a,41.2y,259.15h,88.77t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1saqoYU77rGyTqQ_vQ1ExaUw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D1.2310790970045389%26panoid%3DaqoYU77rGyTqQ_vQ1ExaUw%26yaw%3D259.14533963155435!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyNC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
Used to be a doghouse that never went red, IIRC.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on March 30, 2026, 05:45:42 AMQuote from: fwydriver405 on March 25, 2026, 10:56:32 AMQuote from: kphoger on March 25, 2026, 10:37:14 AMHow common is it in the USA for the through movement to just not have any signal at all?
At least in my part of the USA, I'd say sporadically from what I've seen:
South Portland, ME (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6365355,-70.2585707,3a,75y,165.6h,92.01t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1suINWr_k7msxnGH7OuM6YYQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-2.013394303516961%26panoid%3DuINWr_k7msxnGH7OuM6YYQ%26yaw%3D165.60465321726502!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyMy4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
Nashua, NH (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7079861,-71.4519079,3a,31.3y,253.73h,97.11t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sS7UtfXn7iNcQgD9MKt89rA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-7.105173028685357%26panoid%3DS7UtfXn7iNcQgD9MKt89rA%26yaw%3D253.72763116523558!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyMy4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
Everett, MA (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4026743,-71.0501321,3a,28.7y,85.46h,90.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sbvNo3aBMgSKaTip3nBSFQg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-0.7233739015180021%26panoid%3DbvNo3aBMgSKaTip3nBSFQg%26yaw%3D85.45898425787728!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyMy4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
Medford, MA (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4085826,-71.0836176,3a,75y,318.8h,84.03t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sFzbp1wNWhfgyWr1RAfZs3A!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D5.967643309857635%26panoid%3DFzbp1wNWhfgyWr1RAfZs3A%26yaw%3D318.8034121687637!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyMy4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
San Jose, CA - Seagull/Continuous Green T (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.3294373,-121.8156943,3a,71.8y,208.62h,91.9t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sRMb1q4Lmr_BrAexfTjZJzg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-1.899021885058417%26panoid%3DRMb1q4Lmr_BrAexfTjZJzg%26yaw%3D208.61815109876468!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyMy4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
One here in Huntsville, AL, as well:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7134583,-86.6886603,3a,41.2y,259.15h,88.77t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1saqoYU77rGyTqQ_vQ1ExaUw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D1.2310790970045389%26panoid%3DaqoYU77rGyTqQ_vQ1ExaUw%26yaw%3D259.14533963155435!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyNC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
Used to be a doghouse that never went red, IIRC.
Oh, can't forget these two in MD, which are also double permissive left turns (via FRA):
Quote from: jakeroot on April 21, 2017, 03:06:07 AMJust gonna dust off this thread. Looking for some input from those familiar with Maryland.
I found a left turn in Silver Spring (Route 650 onto Columbia Pike). It's a dual left turn with a flashing red arrow, with turns permitted after a full stop.
I've read before that flashing red arrows are pretty ubiquitous in Maryland (versus flashing yellow arrows). I can tell from Street View that many single lefts have FRAs, but not many dual lefts.
Anyone know how often Maryland installs dual left flashing red arrows?
Here is the Gmaps link to the intersection below: https://goo.gl/Lr4gDD -- according to Historic Aerials, the second left turn lane was added in 2005.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FTxzxpIc.png&hash=cf45ff3939e66808257a16c3c512814c5793fc07)
Quote from: fwydriver405 on January 11, 2025, 05:19:09 PMAs promised above, I went to videotape the above signal and how it operates yesterday. Operates as a two phase signal - NB thrus then the SB protected left, similar to the Silver Springs example.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on March 30, 2026, 05:45:42 AMOne here in Huntsville, AL, as well:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7134583,-86.6886603,3a,41.2y,259.15h,88.77t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1saqoYU77rGyTqQ_vQ1ExaUw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D1.2310790970045389%26panoid%3DaqoYU77rGyTqQ_vQ1ExaUw%26yaw%3D259.14533963155435!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyNC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
Used to be a doghouse that never went red, IIRC.
A doghouse that never went red also emphasizes my earlier point that the familiar signal is useful, even if it doesn't cycle through all the phases. Probably that doghouse never lit the red or yellow orbs. [And if that is the case, 24/7, even in the wee hours when yellow flash may be best suited, then I would say that the DOT doesn't even have to put light bulbs in the slots for red and yellow orb.]
Keep in mind that most drivers don't think so heavily about this stuff like us. They see a familiar doghouse, they know what to do: green orb: go straight, yield on left turn. green arrow: protected left turn. They never think about whether the light would or could go red. It's just not important to them, since they see a green light now.
A few in the St Louis area:
- Murdoch Ave at I-44 WB ramp (https://maps.app.goo.gl/1hQwTgaP6z4dZtRL9)
- Berry Rd at I-44 EB ramp (https://maps.app.goo.gl/kiSR7WSq77Gz7qrD8)
- MO 141 NB at US 40 WB ramp (https://maps.app.goo.gl/oQwCDVvgq6h5cy23A)
- MO 141 SB at MO 364 EB ramp (https://maps.app.goo.gl/JTFGoBXTRfbqm8Y56)
- Chesterfield Pkwy at US 40 EB frontage road (https://maps.app.goo.gl/tAkJU7KdoySG9yr28)
Some removed examples:
- Delmar Blvd at I-170 NB ramp (https://maps.app.goo.gl/5S87rnwEREPPuXdb6). Replaced with a normal signal when the pedestrian crossing was added
- Jefferson Ave at US 40 WB ramp (https://maps.app.goo.gl/u27nxjhv1Pw1gLC17). Removed when the other half of the diamond interchange was completed
- 5th St at I-70 WB. (https://maps.app.goo.gl/DJ1e26VALtLyQRPL6) Removed when signals for the ramp coming off I-70 WB was added, before the entire interchange was converted to a DDI.
Here's one on US-60 southeast of Charleston:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/4ishZcrSLJ4vG9hY9
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 06, 2026, 10:43:43 PMA few in the St Louis area:
- Murdoch Ave at I-44 WB ramp (https://maps.app.goo.gl/1hQwTgaP6z4dZtRL9)
- Berry Rd at I-44 EB ramp (https://maps.app.goo.gl/kiSR7WSq77Gz7qrD8)
- MO 141 NB at US 40 WB ramp (https://maps.app.goo.gl/oQwCDVvgq6h5cy23A)
- MO 141 SB at MO 364 EB ramp (https://maps.app.goo.gl/JTFGoBXTRfbqm8Y56)
- Chesterfield Pkwy at US 40 EB frontage road (https://maps.app.goo.gl/tAkJU7KdoySG9yr28)
Also:
- NB Carondelet at the SB I-55 entrance ramp (complete with a non-standard shared head for the left+thru lane) (https://maps.app.goo.gl/rENUSCzJKG7wUn6H7)
- SB Germania at the NB I-55 entrance ramp (also with a non-standard shared head) (https://maps.app.goo.gl/xw2rYGLA8VCRJmW76)
- MO 141 at the I-55 entrance ramps (https://maps.app.goo.gl/YJcPjc2k8wQVTPmK6)
- WB MO 30 at Delores Drive (https://maps.app.goo.gl/1TBUpyDjgzVx6xhU7)
- EB MO 30 at Dillon Road (https://maps.app.goo.gl/QhrrAX9favvTj5uA7)
- The South Outer Road for US 40 at Route K in St. Charles County (https://maps.app.goo.gl/s5zTQkhBb9a2nmGWA)
Quote from: kphoger on March 25, 2026, 10:37:14 AMHow common is it in the USA for the through movement to just not have any signal at all?
Something like these examples from Mexico:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/nko72CRxr9EtknP18
https://maps.app.goo.gl/vi1FZ3x1RAgu5iMb6
https://maps.app.goo.gl/WAZeGK479HszhDsU6
Framingham, MA (the EB signal is for a crosswalk, its a MassDOT thing)
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2988268,-71.3940228,3a,55.8y,91.38h,94.1t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sFFbjHjGrtZXCnuuommJWYQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-4.096933786261289%26panoid%3DFFbjHjGrtZXCnuuommJWYQ%26yaw%3D91.38207656314755!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwNS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2988268,-71.3940228,3a,55.8y,91.38h,94.1t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sFFbjHjGrtZXCnuuommJWYQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-4.096933786261289%26panoid%3DFFbjHjGrtZXCnuuommJWYQ%26yaw%3D91.38207656314755!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwNS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on April 08, 2026, 01:20:28 PMFramingham, MA (the EB signal is for a crosswalk, its a MassDOT thing)
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2988268,-71.3940228,3a,55.8y,91.38h,94.1t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sFFbjHjGrtZXCnuuommJWYQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-4.096933786261289%26panoid%3DFFbjHjGrtZXCnuuommJWYQ%26yaw%3D91.38207656314755!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwNS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2988268,-71.3940228,3a,55.8y,91.38h,94.1t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sFFbjHjGrtZXCnuuommJWYQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-4.096933786261289%26panoid%3DFFbjHjGrtZXCnuuommJWYQ%26yaw%3D91.38207656314755!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwNS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
I was initially hesitant (leaning towards DQ'ing) to count this Long Beach example (GSV (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7615875,-118.1417186,3a,48.9y,55.01h,88.16t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1ssIDOq6mS6K0KK8twbPP_6A!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D1.8363126775687562%26panoid%3DsIDOq6mS6K0KK8twbPP_6A%26yaw%3D55.01120331874634!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwNS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lnWKt_YaF0)) due to the fact the EB thru movement is signalised (but only for the crosswalk) on possibly the same controller as the intersection (but on a different phase), not sure if we're counting pedestrian crosswalks here. The only EB conflicts for the Long Beach one is the pedestrians, Ximeno Ave SB must turn right at Livington.
Quote from: kphoger on March 25, 2026, 10:37:14 AMHow common is it in the USA for the through movement to just not have any signal at all?
I think it might be just as common in Washington for there to be no through signal.
Example in Renton: https://maps.app.goo.gl/Cxpb9Kb1HAbcJWnj9 --
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/55195437326_fcc0730aa3_o.png?s=eyJpIjo1NTE5NTQzNzMyNiwiZSI6MTc3NTY3NzE3OSwicyI6Ijc2MzA3MmI5YmI4YjVjNzZkMGRmN2FiOTM2NGRlOTU5YTNjZWU0ZTMiLCJ2IjoxfQ)
More examples with no through signal:
Benson Drive at I-405, Renton: https://maps.app.goo.gl/RFcitGCZR7pNznUu6
Edit: actually, maybe they're not as common as I thought. I remembered a couple examples right away but I'm drawing a blank as to where more might be. Especially any with an additional left-side merge.
I do remember this example in Colorado Springs with a dual permissive left (FYA displays) and no through signal: https://maps.app.goo.gl/ng1vw1nrvmo7MaQL8
Quote from: Revive 755 on April 07, 2026, 09:31:59 PM- NB Carondelet at the SB I-55 entrance ramp (complete with a non-standard shared head for the left+thru lane) (https://maps.app.goo.gl/rENUSCzJKG7wUn6H7)
- SB Germania at the NB I-55 entrance ramp (also with a non-standard shared head) (https://maps.app.goo.gl/xw2rYGLA8VCRJmW76)
Do the non-standard shared heads have an eternal green ball for the through direction, and the two spaces below it are for the left turn arrows? First time seeing them.
Looks like there used to be one at Kingshighway and I-44 WB ramp (https://maps.app.goo.gl/hrVtDYwUM65xXFrZ6) as well, before it got replaced by a FYA. I was looking for an eternal green straight arrow here earlier didn't see a signal for the through movement, which seems to be the exception in the STL area compared to other cities in this thread.
Come to think of it, the following types of intersections also generally seem to also have no signal for the through movement, which may make this semi-common if these intersection types are prevalent in such areas:
- The left turn crossover of a Continuous-flow intersection (CFI), prior to the actual intersection (Example 1 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6800848,-111.9815502,3a,27.4y,3.85h,88.22t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sa_4db1UKyVwGdAX3tJYKYA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D1.7765456661466459%26panoid%3Da_4db1UKyVwGdAX3tJYKYA%26yaw%3D3.848237931790436!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D), 2 (https://www.google.com/maps/@46.2703951,-63.1147438,3a,75y,157.16h,81.85t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfVXKr35kQSzeVjCgaggD-Q!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D8.149262928359477%26panoid%3DfVXKr35kQSzeVjCgaggD-Q%26yaw%3D157.1644915652472!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)),
- The U-turn points of a signalised Michigan U-Turn (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4261845,-83.2774259,3a,71.1y,337.65h,83.7t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s-Mexr_dKgqkr7z-i1khC7g!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D6.295780128352575%26panoid%3D-Mexr_dKgqkr7z-i1khC7g%26yaw%3D337.6468854032582!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) and/or Restricted Crossing U-Turn (RCUT) (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9549451,-78.4455411,3a,63.1y,58.84h,88.79t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sOBs5W2jz3tn3sSCGcbQxOg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D1.213682188188102%26panoid%3DOBs5W2jz3tn3sSCGcbQxOg%26yaw%3D58.844726096715945!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D),
- Some B4 parclo interchanges (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.4120401,-76.6004586,3a,30y,182.95h,87.35t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1symSS6JdWs3onz9j4-aq9Og!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D2.6467289125291558%26panoid%3DymSS6JdWs3onz9j4-aq9Og%26yaw%3D182.95343266294495!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) (or variations of it (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.4221858,-122.0917899,3a,28.6y,25.12h,88.08t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1ss6lIQbZ9dVK5hnzQSXoAcQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D1.9151781675215602%26panoid%3Ds6lIQbZ9dVK5hnzQSXoAcQ%26yaw%3D25.1169734945332!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)), if the right turn coming off the freeway does not have signal control, and
- Certain Seagull (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.3294373,-121.8156943,3a,32.9y,215.15h,87.28t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sRMb1q4Lmr_BrAexfTjZJzg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D2.7162422146206353%26panoid%3DRMb1q4Lmr_BrAexfTjZJzg%26yaw%3D215.15272000475426!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) / Continuous Flow T (as green ball (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?msg=170642), FYA (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.2062079,-97.1317719,3a,29.9y,358.44h,90.17t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1soAjYUa5A10jvawy5vYru8A!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-0.16731387430247935%26panoid%3DoAjYUa5A10jvawy5vYru8A%26yaw%3D358.4387650917701!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)) intersections, where cross street traffic wanting to turn left onto the main road must merge, and there is no crosswalk on the main road with the thru freeflow direction.
I found three on WV 10 in Logan, W. Va.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Pcbsps1Kojww3Pkv9
https://maps.app.goo.gl/V32WcQnKMYW7dAME7
https://maps.app.goo.gl/CToTiVd8TqpyAfUb8
There's a bunch more around Alabama that I haven't shared yet, so here's a list of the ones I can think of that I haven't posted yet (trying again because Cloudflare decided to erase my original post entirely when I went to preview it so I could make sure the links were all right :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: ). Several of these are newer installs that post-date my first post of locations in this thread as well.
These first ones have the standard up arrows:
Alt. US 72/AL 20, Decatur:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.6103902,-86.9780212,3a,46.9y,303.92h,91.92t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sPpWzuROXzuJok8M3yVvLTA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-1.9150354838488681%26panoid%3DPpWzuROXzuJok8M3yVvLTA%26yaw%3D303.9180596373882!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
The other one in Decatur that I shared years ago earlier in this thread is now gone.
US 431 & AL 79, Guntersville:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.4276255,-86.2617244,3a,46.9y,163.02h,92.23t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s28qt07xT-L9KfyEWEWZyig!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-2.225237728302247%26panoid%3D28qt07xT-L9KfyEWEWZyig%26yaw%3D163.01890222165858!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
US 431 & Bynum Leatherwood Road, Anniston:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7175791,-85.8675091,3a,43y,279.26h,90.13t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1snaRMRiPbEAJg51T78zN1tg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-0.1255193103053216%26panoid%3DnaRMRiPbEAJg51T78zN1tg%26yaw%3D279.25972748999476!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
1st Avenue & Georgia Road, Birmingham:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.541485,-86.7490339,3a,22.1y,56.12h,92.21t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s4wZPujWsO2cCbhsjqbQvQw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-2.2117740325427917%26panoid%3D4wZPujWsO2cCbhsjqbQvQw%26yaw%3D56.11691870360571!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5417899,-86.7486137,3a,52.3y,236.67h,91.6t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1s0BQX4WxW912YkbGGEHh7VA!2e0!5s20190501T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-1.5993311728472719%26panoid%3D0BQX4WxW912YkbGGEHh7VA%26yaw%3D236.67061718927428!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
Oporto Madrid Boulevard, Birmingham:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.532442,-86.7212609,3a,15y,188.93h,88.52t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1srnStK4wqL7I_60oLkHOgPQ!2e0!5s20220101T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D1.4836466158266148%26panoid%3DrnStK4wqL7I_60oLkHOgPQ%26yaw%3D188.9347314949356!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
US 280 & I-459, Birmingham:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4408937,-86.7277909,3a,29.7y,302.79h,89.74t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1ss9sOFx45kXtc5wz2cEh2YA!2e0!5s20231101T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0.25732464471209937%26panoid%3Ds9sOFx45kXtc5wz2cEh2YA%26yaw%3D302.79431126435463!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
Shannon-Oxmoor Road & Oxmoor Road, Birmingham:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4356459,-86.8436825,3a,37.6y,332.18h,96.54t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s9PUFwu0oQzwxOz6xC6VReg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-6.537933934372376%26panoid%3D9PUFwu0oQzwxOz6xC6VReg%26yaw%3D332.1782673198078!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4362071,-86.8436627,3a,15y,195.75h,90.21t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1svC-NgQNv4qsy7olJc3BM8g!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-0.20959613799749377%26panoid%3DvC-NgQNv4qsy7olJc3BM8g%26yaw%3D195.75256100589536!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
I've noticed that around the Birmingham area, for whatever reason, a bunch of eternal green signals have green ball indications rather than upwards arrows as they're supposed to, IIRC. Here's the locations of those ones that I'm aware of:
AL 79 & I-20/I-59, Birmingham:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5472888,-86.779721,3a,19.8y,140.76h,91.43t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1skykgIVGeY5sCKdQOwNWElA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-1.4345454617617293%26panoid%3DkykgIVGeY5sCKdQOwNWElA%26yaw%3D140.7580324375039!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
US 280 & Cherokee Road, Mountain Brook:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4712178,-86.7619062,3a,26.2y,127h,95.26t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQUDC69yBNFshI5Vh6y0kIA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-5.259070498878728%26panoid%3DQUDC69yBNFshI5Vh6y0kIA%26yaw%3D127.0047362026373!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
US 280 & Overton Road, Birmingham:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4649037,-86.7572116,3a,55.6y,179.75h,89.13t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQIzYIB5YWqF4kZ9xZDeimg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0.8672919187960701%26panoid%3DQIzYIB5YWqF4kZ9xZDeimg%26yaw%3D179.75010717647896!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
Fun fact: that intersection on US 280 was the first ALDOT-controlled signal to receive an FYA signal, and is why ALDOT adopted FYAs when they did in the mid-2010s.
US 280 & Green Valley Road, Mountain Brook:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4598826,-86.7539777,3a,67.4y,122.92h,89.12t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1steKf6GpM-ocnWhGdPwHuRA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0.8806506905932565%26panoid%3DteKf6GpM-ocnWhGdPwHuRA%26yaw%3D122.91780790613683!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
US 280 & I-459, Birmingham:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4428045,-86.7310525,3a,23.1y,304.36h,93.64t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sgmmmr7HfPtFdfkYF-aVKHw!2e0!5s20240601T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-3.6436698661736813%26panoid%3Dgmmmr7HfPtFdfkYF-aVKHw%26yaw%3D304.3613278730897!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
US 280 & Perimeter Park, Birmingham:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4371962,-86.7216689,3a,15.2y,304.48h,92.48t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sjWJB353m18ipEIIMzQ3lWw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-2.4789429208944824%26panoid%3DjWJB353m18ipEIIMzQ3lWw%26yaw%3D304.47966618084166!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
US 280, Birmingham:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4211615,-86.6965275,3a,46.9y,282.08h,87.35t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sn1QjFhi-POxU3gnENHrnyw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D2.650778035378778%26panoid%3Dn1QjFhi-POxU3gnENHrnyw%26yaw%3D282.07913082729425!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
US 280, Meadowbrook:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4192181,-86.6929682,3a,46.9y,101.73h,93.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s0w8XQTnJWsIMUNFKV2MuXA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-3.9859627887609292%26panoid%3D0w8XQTnJWsIMUNFKV2MuXA%26yaw%3D101.7319681747995!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
I might be missing a few locations across Alabama, especially since I ain't aware of any around Montgomery or Mobile, so I wouldn't be too surprised if there's some around there that I've missed.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on April 12, 2026, 05:42:28 PMUS 431 & Bynum Leatherwood Road, Anniston:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7175791,-85.8675091,3a,43y,279.26h,90.13t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1snaRMRiPbEAJg51T78zN1tg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-0.1255193103053216%26panoid%3DnaRMRiPbEAJg51T78zN1tg%26yaw%3D279.25972748999476!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
It's great to see a second left turn signal on the far left corner, I know they are rare in Alabama. I feel like these should be a must with seagull-type intersections. The spirit of the MUTCD really should be to have supplemental displays for the important movement at an intersection; at seagull intersections, the green up arrows aren't really the most critical displays; the roadway itself usually makes it clear you can keep moving. The left turn signal is far more important since it actually changes, and should have a redundant/second/supplemental display.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on April 12, 2026, 05:42:28 PM(trying again because Cloudflare decided to erase my original post entirely when I went to preview it so I could make sure the links were all right :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: )
When I type a post that's long enough for me to suspect Cloudfare might cause problems, I make sure to hit Ctrl+A Ctrl+C right before clicking the Preview button.
Quote from: kphoger on April 13, 2026, 09:49:16 AMQuote from: freebrickproductions on April 12, 2026, 05:42:28 PM(trying again because Cloudflare decided to erase my original post entirely when I went to preview it so I could make sure the links were all right :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: )
When I type a post that's long enough for me to suspect Cloudfare might cause problems, I make sure to hit Ctrl+A Ctrl+C right before clicking the Preview button.
I had to do that when posting as well, lol.