Eternal Green Lights

[jakeroot]

These eternal signals are located in Parkersburg, W. Va.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/FQGkoHnUKwZ9nS7w6

I'm fascinated by West Virginia's bypass lanes with the double-red doghouses.

What do you mean by this? I don't quite understand.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.356241,-81.646694,3a,26.2y,148.02h,95.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIrRN884widg7oTNxGBA35A!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-5.085879473214632%26panoid%3DIrRN884widg7oTNxGBA35A%26yaw%3D148.02474051551755!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMxNS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

The double red seems completely pointless, when would that left turn display ever be anything other than green? If it's a yield, and there are no crosswalks or interfering left turns from the cross-street (which there are not), the most restrictive state would only ever be yielding on green.

I get that, under normal circumstances before the advent of the flashing yellow arrow, the doghouse was the standard display for situations like this (at least where fully-protected lefts weren't required), and that a doghouse display installed in this situation was still capable of showing yellow and red orbs...just that they were never used. A double red in this situation seems, well, doubly pointless.

[Dirt Roads]

The double red seems completely pointless, when would that left turn display ever be anything other than green? If it's a yield, and there are no crosswalks or interfering left turns from the cross-street (which there are not), the most restrictive state would only ever be yielding on green.

I get that, under normal circumstances before the advent of the flashing yellow arrow, the doghouse was the standard display for situations like this (at least where fully-protected lefts weren't required), and that a doghouse display installed in this situation was still capable of showing yellow and red orbs...just that they were never used. A double red in this situation seems, well, doubly pointless.

Although the protected left turn arrow here may seem perfunctory, this left turn lane is arguably the primary route for West Side traffic to access all of the Interstates in all directions, so this intersection is way busier than it looks during the midday. 

This intersection with northbound Pennsylvania Avenue (that runs alongside the east side of I-64) is also coordinated with the intersection right behind this one with southbound Pennsylvania Avenue (along the west side of I-64).  I'm not sure, but it appears that this signal picks up a protected green left arrow in conjunction with the phase change from red ball to green ball on the signals just behind you here. 

You can actually see where the protected green left arrow goes into play if you run GSV up a bit further east onto the Elk River bridge, then turn around and come back.  The GSV vehicle gets hit with a yellow ball and stops at the red ball with no traffic queued up on the left turn lane, but rather with everybody still held back with red balls at Penna northbound.  (Yes, we actually say "Penn-uh" in Charleston).


Regarding the "double reds" in the doghouse, I can't find a strict redundancy rule in the MUTCD for traffic signals in every such case, but it seems necessary to me to have redundant red balls for any individual signal head that could be displaying a red ball whenever all of the other signal heads could be displaying "greens".  As I mentioned previous, the DOH had double reds along here long before the proliferation of the doghouse.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Minnesota has 2 that I know of and an honorable mention:

-Westbound TH 62 at the left turn to southbound I-35E in Mendota Heights
-Northbound TH 280 at Broadway in Lauderdale

Honorable mention:
-Northbound Valley View Road at the left turn to westbound TH 62 in Edina, which will only turn red if you press the pedestrian crossing button

[Revive 755]

Regarding the "double reds" in the doghouse, I can't find a strict redundancy rule in the MUTCD for traffic signals in every such case, but it seems necessary to me to have redundant red balls for any individual signal head that could be displaying a red ball whenever all of the other signal heads could be displaying "greens".  As I mentioned previous, the DOH had double reds along here long before the proliferation of the doghouse.

At least in the National MUTCD there is not any requirement for redundancy for signals serving a turning movement, unless the turning movement is the primary movement at an intersection where the straight movement is prohibited or not possible (T-intersection).

As for the signal at the Kanawha at Pennsylvania: If they wanted redundancy for the red indications they should have added a second head for the left turn.  Or used a tower and a biomodal green arrow/yellow arrow section to stay under the 5-section maximum for a signal.  If they are that opposed to using a flashing yellow arrow they need to at least put up a Left Turn Signal sign, if not use louvers or programmable red indications.

[jakeroot]

Regarding the "double reds" in the doghouse, I can't find a strict redundancy rule in the MUTCD for traffic signals in every such case, but it seems necessary to me to have redundant red balls for any individual signal head that could be displaying a red ball whenever all of the other signal heads could be displaying "greens".  As I mentioned previous, the DOH had double reds along here long before the proliferation of the doghouse.

At least in the National MUTCD there is not any requirement for redundancy for signals serving a turning movement, unless the turning movement is the primary movement at an intersection where the straight movement is prohibited or not possible (T-intersection).

As for the signal at the Kanawha at Pennsylvania: If they wanted redundancy for the red indications they should have added a second head for the left turn.  Or used a tower and a biomodal green arrow/yellow arrow section to stay under the 5-section maximum for a signal.  If they are that opposed to using a flashing yellow arrow they need to at least put up a Left Turn Signal sign, if not use louvers or programmable red indications.

(bold emphasis mine)

I don't think it's necessary, though. Going back to my point earlier, there is never a phase in which the red orbs are used. They doubled up on the reds, perhaps out of prior habit, but they would never be used.

If there was a state in which the doghouse was red, I would understand louvers or a left turn signal sign, but as it stands, it just cycles between (1) green orb, (2) green orb + green arrow, and (3) green orb + yellow arrow.

There really is no reason to use a flashing yellow arrow here for the same reason. If anything, it might actually be worse since you'd have that interim red between the protected and permissive phases, which in my opinion is, and always has been, completely pointless. That interim red is the only time that red arrow would ever be lit.

PS: These situations would actually be great for a custom flashing yellow arrow signal, with a green arrow, yellow arrow, and flashing yellow arrow display. It would clearly be a left turn signal, and there'd be no needless red arrow that would barely be used.

[Bitmapped]

Regarding the "double reds" in the doghouse, I can't find a strict redundancy rule in the MUTCD for traffic signals in every such case, but it seems necessary to me to have redundant red balls for any individual signal head that could be displaying a red ball whenever all of the other signal heads could be displaying "greens".  As I mentioned previous, the DOH had double reds along here long before the proliferation of the doghouse.

At least in the National MUTCD there is not any requirement for redundancy for signals serving a turning movement, unless the turning movement is the primary movement at an intersection where the straight movement is prohibited or not possible (T-intersection).

As for the signal at the Kanawha at Pennsylvania: If they wanted redundancy for the red indications they should have added a second head for the left turn.  Or used a tower and a biomodal green arrow/yellow arrow section to stay under the 5-section maximum for a signal.  If they are that opposed to using a flashing yellow arrow they need to at least put up a Left Turn Signal sign, if not use louvers or programmable red indications.

The double-red configuration follows West Virginia's basic doghouse template. WVDOH standard is that arrows are mounted on their own to the side, not halfway under the red. WV also doesn't use bimodal arrows, which I think is a good move.

There is a similar setup in Morgantown at the WV 7 intersection with the I-68 westbound ramp that uses two signals for the left turn lane. I think the double reds as in Charleston work better.  I live near the Morgantown example and from time to time see people confused thinking the red applies to the continuous through lane as well even though there is a continuously lit arrow. One signal per lane seems clearer.

Morgantown previously had another continuous through lane setup near the WVU Coliseum, this one with a protected-only left turn. The signal-controlled through lane got double reds, albeit side by side rather than stacked.

[jakeroot]

I think the double reds as in Charleston work better.

I don't know how you can say that when those double reds in Charleston are literally never programmed to be lit. There may as well not be any red orb at all.

I feel like I'm going completely mad trying to explain this lol.

[kphoger]

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.356241,-81.646694,3a,26.2y,148.02h,95.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIrRN884widg7oTNxGBA35A!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-5.085879473214632%26panoid%3DIrRN884widg7oTNxGBA35A%26yaw%3D148.02474051551755!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMxNS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

The double red seems completely pointless, when would that left turn display ever be anything other than green?

Going back to my point earlier, there is never a phase in which the red orbs are used.

I think the double reds as in Charleston work better.

I don't know how you can say that when those double reds in Charleston are literally never programmed to be lit.

That's what makes them work so well.

In all seriousness, though, that one isn't the only Charleston example that's been brought up in the thread.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Florida+St,+Charleston,+WV/@38.345794,-81.6382062,3a,31.3y,44.3h,94.36t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1s0Ty95SDY-j0DLEGwZNLuuA!2e0!5s20230601T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-4.358844389111454%26panoid%3D0Ty95SDY-j0DLEGwZNLuuA%26yaw%3D44.298475552794066!7i16384!8i8192!4m6!3m5!1s0x8848d2c564461003:0x27833bbb7d2c460!8m2!3d38.3672769!4d-81.6599839!16s%2Fg%2F1tmqs1b9?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMxOC4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

There's also this one at the South Side Bridge.

[jakeroot]

In all seriousness, though, that one isn't the only Charleston example that's been brought up in the thread.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Florida+St,+Charleston,+WV/@38.345794,-81.6382062,3a,31.3y,44.3h,94.36t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1s0Ty95SDY-j0DLEGwZNLuuA!2e0!5s20230601T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-4.358844389111454%26panoid%3D0Ty95SDY-j0DLEGwZNLuuA%26yaw%3D44.298475552794066!7i16384!8i8192!4m6!3m5!1s0x8848d2c564461003:0x27833bbb7d2c460!8m2!3d38.3672769!4d-81.6599839!16s%2Fg%2F1tmqs1b9?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMxOC4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

There's also this one at the South Side Bridge.

Cheers. I did miss that.

[Dirt Roads]

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Florida+St,+Charleston,+WV/@38.345794,-81.6382062,3a,31.3y,44.3h,94.36t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1s0Ty95SDY-j0DLEGwZNLuuA!2e0!5s20230601T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-4.358844389111454%26panoid%3D0Ty95SDY-j0DLEGwZNLuuA%26yaw%3D44.298475552794066!7i16384!8i8192!4m6!3m5!1s0x8848d2c564461003:0x27833bbb7d2c460!8m2!3d38.3672769!4d-81.6599839!16s%2Fg%2F1tmqs1b9?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMxOC4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

There's also this one at the South Side Bridge.

The point that <JakeRoot> is trying to make is that there is a big difference between those two signal arrangements.  In the case of the South Side Bridge intersection (with Ferry Street, ergo the access road to WV-61 beneath), the left turn signal is usually set at "red ball" when the opposing traffic signal head from the bridge is displaying a "green ball"; on the other hand, the Kanawha Boulevard traffic signal for the left turn onto Pennsylvania Avenue is assumed to be the primary movement for traffic and gets a "green ball" (yield when making the left turn) whenever the opposing traffic signal head from that bridge is also displaying a "green ball".

I shouldn't argue with <JakeRoot> but I feel like my main point was missed here.  At the Kanawha Boulevard signal, the left turn signal does indeed display a "double red" quite a bit during both rush hours (seen it myself quite often).  Whenever left turn traffic gets backed up in the queue area, the [westbound] signal on Kanawha Boulevard cycles over to give way to the protected left turn green arrow.  (This also happens for any Emergency Preempt cycle).  After the queue clears out, then you get the perfunctory cycle to display yellow left turn arrow before the "double reds".  If I recall correctly, the DOH programmed this signal for a [much longer than normal] 30-second "double reds" display to allow [westbound] Kanawha Boulevard traffic to [almost] clear out before switching back to the "green ball yield when turning left" arrangement.  Same thing that I said before but hopefully makes more sense now.

For the record, my grandparents lived just three blocks away and I used to know many of the folks in this neighborhood back then.  It was fun watching up close the DOH construct the Interstate through town.

[kphoger]

At the Kanawha Boulevard signal, the left turn signal does indeed display a "double red" quite a bit during both rush hours (seen it myself quite often).  Whenever left turn traffic gets backed up in the queue area, the [westbound] signal on Kanawha Boulevard cycles over to give way to the protected left turn green arrow.  (This also happens for any Emergency Preempt cycle).  After the queue clears out, then you get the perfunctory cycle to display yellow left turn arrow before the "double reds".  If I recall correctly, the DOH programmed this signal for a [much longer than normal] 30-second "double reds" display to allow [westbound] Kanawha Boulevard traffic to [almost] clear out before switching back to the "green ball yield when turning left" arrangement.  Same thing that I said before but hopefully makes more sense now.

It still doesn't make sense to me.  It sounds like you're saying that opposing traffic gets a red light every so often to allow left-turning traffic its own protected turn.  If that's the case, then what does that have to do with the double-red facing that left-turning traffic?

Are you saying it's like this?

[◀⬤⬤] [▲] [▲]

If that's correct, then, again, what's the point of the red balls?

[Dirt Roads]

At the Kanawha Boulevard signal, the left turn signal does indeed display a "double red" quite a bit during both rush hours (seen it myself quite often).  Whenever left turn traffic gets backed up in the queue area, the [westbound] signal on Kanawha Boulevard cycles over to give way to the protected left turn green arrow.  (This also happens for any Emergency Preempt cycle).  After the queue clears out, then you get the perfunctory cycle to display yellow left turn arrow before the "double reds".  If I recall correctly, the DOH programmed this signal for a [much longer than normal] 30-second "double reds" display to allow [westbound] Kanawha Boulevard traffic to [almost] clear out before switching back to the "green ball yield when turning left" arrangement.  Same thing that I said before but hopefully makes more sense now.

It still doesn't make sense to me.  It sounds like you're saying that opposing traffic gets a red light every so often to allow left-turning traffic its own protected turn.  If that's the case, then what does that have to do with the double-red facing that left-turning traffic?

Are you saying it's like this?

[◀⬤⬤] [▲] [▲]

No.  It is a green left turn arrow (and of course, the opposing traffic is set to "red ball").  From a Traffic Engineer point-of-view, this GLTA should be considered the primary traffic flow on the phasing chart.  The opposing "green ball" is much less important for traffic flow.

If that's correct, then, again, what's the point of the red balls?

Irrelevant.  But back to the real way that it works.  Whenever opposing traffic has waited long enough, then everything cycles back to give Kanawha Boulevard [westbound] the "green ball" for the through movement.  Which (in today's world) requires a momentary "All Reds" before kicking back over to a permissive flashing yellow arrow.  Except in this case, you really do want to hold back the left turn traffic here for a while until opposing traffic clears out.

Folks making the left turn here already know that they are the primary traffic flow.  During rush hour, it's pretty common to see folks making left turns that force opposing traffic to slow down and let them across.

If it weren't so tight, there ought to be two left turn lanes and one through lane here.  The far left lane would be for I-64 westbound/US-119 southbound/US-60 westbound.  The other left turn lane would be for I-77 southbound/I-64 eastbound // I-77 northbound/I-79 northbound // Virginia Street // Lee Street (US-60 eastbound) // US-119 northbound.

[kphoger]

But back to the real way that it works.  Whenever opposing traffic has waited long enough, then everything cycles back to give Kanawha Boulevard [westbound] the "green ball" for the through movement.  Which (in today's world) requires a momentary "All Reds" before kicking back over to a permissive flashing yellow arrow.  Except in this case, you really do want to hold back the left turn traffic here for a while until opposing traffic clears out.

There's an FYA there?  Oh, I missed that.  (That brief red light between FYA phases is a minor thing that bothers me.)

[jakeroot]

But back to the real way that it works.  Whenever opposing traffic has waited long enough, then everything cycles back to give Kanawha Boulevard [westbound] the "green ball" for the through movement.  Which (in today's world) requires a momentary "All Reds" before kicking back over to a permissive flashing yellow arrow.  Except in this case, you really do want to hold back the left turn traffic here for a while until opposing traffic clears out.

There's an FYA there?  Oh, I missed that.  (That brief red light between FYA phases is a minor thing that bothers me.)

I think he's just likening the way it [apparently] works in the real world, which is similar to that of the flashing yellow arrows with the interim red after the protected left turn. I also am not a fan, for the record.

I shouldn't argue with <JakeRoot> but I feel like my main point was missed here.  At the Kanawha Boulevard signal, the left turn signal does indeed display a "double red" quite a bit during both rush hours (seen it myself quite often).  Whenever left turn traffic gets backed up in the queue area, the [westbound] signal on Kanawha Boulevard cycles over to give way to the protected left turn green arrow.  (This also happens for any Emergency Preempt cycle).  After the queue clears out, then you get the perfunctory cycle to display yellow left turn arrow before the "double reds".  If I recall correctly, the DOH programmed this signal for a [much longer than normal] 30-second "double reds" display to allow [westbound] Kanawha Boulevard traffic to [almost] clear out before switching back to the "green ball yield when turning left" arrangement.  Same thing that I said before but hopefully makes more sense now.

I appreciate the rundown of its operation. I've never heard of a setup like this. Ostensibly, there is no reason to fully stop left turning traffic with red orbs, as the oncoming traffic simply proceeding on green would already accomplish this task (as left turns off Kanawha have to yield). I don't see why they need to have such a long red orb phase.

[Dirt Roads]

Ostensibly, there is no reason to fully stop left turning traffic with red orbs, as the oncoming traffic simply proceeding on green would already accomplish this task (as left turns off Kanawha have to yield). I don't see why they need to have such a long red orb phase.

My response to this can be found in the <FYLA> thread...

[mrsman]

Ostensibly, there is no reason to fully stop left turning traffic with red orbs, as the oncoming traffic simply proceeding on green would already accomplish this task (as left turns off Kanawha have to yield). I don't see why they need to have such a long red orb phase.

My response to this can be found in the <FYLA> thread...

While it seems like they do have a red phase here, I would say that even if there were no red phase, having a standard doghouse signal would still be helpful. 

With a standard doghouse signal, you know that left turns yield on green orb, left turns protected on green arrow, and left turns prohibited on red orb.  The signal face tells you what to expect out of the signal, even if some of the indications are never in fact lit.

I am sure that having a RYG signal is helpful because of its familiarity, even if not strictly necessary because R and Y do not get lit.  The eternal green with straight arrow is so common, that putting in a traditional RYG is just simply unnecessary.

Here is a very unique one in Vancouver, BC that probably would not be noteworthy if it was displayed as RYG-GA instead of G-GA.  The red and yellow are not ever displayed, but if the red and yellow aspects were present (but not lit) this would be self explanatory:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Quad+Real/@49.2902598,-123.129951,3a,75y,145.33h,87.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sNePBMnMg_gCy0DJ4Pwy1LA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D2.2838424404185247%26panoid%3DNePBMnMg_gCy0DJ4Pwy1LA%26yaw%3D145.33427529519702!7i16384!8i8192!4m15!1m8!3m7!1s0x548673f143a94fb3:0xbb9196ea9b81f38b!2sVancouver,+BC,+Canada!3b1!8m2!3d49.2827291!4d-123.1207375!16zL20vMDgwaDI!3m5!1s0x54867186488e1ac7:0xdb0bf7cf79f2a2fd!8m2!3d49.2902616!4d-123.1291891!16s%2Fg%2F11shpfy222!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

This intersection of Pennsylvania and Constitution in Washington DC used to also be an eternal green with a traditional RYG signal for the straight movement, and R and Y never light up.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/400+Pennsylvania+Ave+NW,+Washington,+DC+20565/@38.8917921,-77.0167723,3a,43.5y,101.15h,86.34t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sxkuYjSsmGmQeNZ6SDTkhgw!2e0!5s20090701T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D3.662957379516996%26panoid%3DxkuYjSsmGmQeNZ6SDTkhgw%26yaw%3D101.1472896364659!7i13312!8i6656!4m6!3m5!1s0x89b7b785c7bb7cd7:0xbe2e7057cc933811!8m2!3d38.8919543!4d-77.0176784!16s%2Fg%2F11f7r1dbxy!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

[With the installation of median bike lanes, the straight movement now has a working red and yellow light.]



SO the WV examples actually do have a red phase.  But even if they did not, a traditional doghouse is more readily understood.  And the passing car is generally not even aware that there is no skipped red phase.

[In a similar vein, when discussing HAWK signals and other pedestrian crossings, I have made the argument for the more familiar as being safer.  HAWKs are still somewhat confusing.  THe traditional L.A. mid-block crossing is just as RYG with a flashing red phase in place of the solid red orb.  Passersby know that the light may turn red, even if they only pass by during the green phase.  But for HAWKs, if you normally pass by when the beacon is off, the fact that it may at times be a red light could be a surprise.  There is value in the familiar.]

[Bitmapped]

SO the WV examples actually do have a red phase.  But even if they did not, a traditional doghouse is more readily understood.  And the passing car is generally not even aware that there is no skipped red phase.

In most of the cases where there is a continuous through lane, the doghouse does have a red phase to allow traffic from the side road to enter.

There are only five cases I can think of in West Virginia where there was a signal solely to facilitate a left turn movement:

• The aforementioned example of Kanawha Blvd at Pennsylvania Avenue in Charleston, where the left turn is protected-permitted.
• WV 10 at I-64, where the left turn is fully protected.
• US 460 at US 52/WV 108 by Princeton, where a ramp terminus was fully signalized from the time the interchange was built even though the conflicting side road traffic was barricaded off for about 20 years. This signal did and does run as a fully protected left turn.
• US 119 for a RCUT U-turn in Charleston, involving the Hickory Road intersection. This is a fully protected U-turn movement, with a double red signal head.
• The companion to Item #4. This one just does a fully protected U-turn.

I think the double reds as in Charleston work better.

I don't know how you can say that when those double reds in Charleston are literally never programmed to be lit. There may as well not be any red orb at all.

A number of other Kanawha Blvd intersections had, for years, a continuous through lane with double red doghouse signal where the reds were used. They lost their continuous through lanes about 2015 to facilitate better pedestrian access to the river.

[kphoger]

How common is it in the USA for the through movement to just not have any signal at all?

Something like these examples from Mexico:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/nko72CRxr9EtknP18
https://maps.app.goo.gl/vi1FZ3x1RAgu5iMb6
https://maps.app.goo.gl/WAZeGK479HszhDsU6

[fwydriver405]

How common is it in the USA for the through movement to just not have any signal at all?

At least in my part of the USA, I'd say sporadically from what I've seen:

South Portland, ME
Nashua, NH
Everett, MA
Medford, MA
San Jose, CA - Seagull/Continuous Green T

[jakeroot]

I think the double reds as in Charleston work better.

I don't know how you can say that when those double reds in Charleston are literally never programmed to be lit. There may as well not be any red orb at all.

A number of other Kanawha Blvd intersections had, for years, a continuous through lane with double red doghouse signal where the reds were used. They lost their continuous through lanes about 2015 to facilitate better pedestrian access to the river.

The mistake I made was assuming we were all talking about the double red along Kanawha underneath the bridge at Pennsylvania Ave. From first glance, it doesn't seem like it could ever go red. Later I realized that it may actually go red, and that there are actually quite a few of these in Charleston that we are talking about. Oops.

[Dirt Roads]

The mistake I made was assuming we were all talking about the double red along Kanawha underneath the bridge at Pennsylvania Ave. From first glance, it doesn't seem like it could ever go red. Later I realized that it may actually go red, and that there are actually quite a few of these in Charleston that we are talking about. Oops.

Indeed, pretty much all of the upthread discussion about the "double reds" was related to the left turn arrow for the Penna Northbound.  But it does beg to discuss why the DOH uses a "double red" for some left turn lanes and not for others.  In the cases where the left turn lane always has a "red ball" when the through lanes also have a "red ball", the "double red" is not required.  But when the left turn lane could be displaying a "red ball" when the through lanes have a "green ball" (or in these cases, "eternal green" signals) the "double red" is used for what we railroaders call "light out protection".  This practice seemingly goes back to the mid-1960s or so in West Virginia.  There may be some exceptions, but I can't recall any in my old age.

And since this is the <Eternal Green> thread, I should point out the obvious.  On a old-fashioned fourlane expressway in West Virginia (ergo, no turn lanes), whenever the right lane gets an "eternal green" then the left lane signal head always had a "double red".  Shotgun marriage, if I'd-uh ever have'un seen it.

[PColumbus73]

My assumption is that the double-reds are used to save space in tight locations or on shorter mast arms, like on Kanawha Blvd and the South Side Bridge. Adding a separate RYG signal might confuse people in the bypass lane.

[The_Ginger]

While doing work for the AARoads Wiki, I found another one in West Virginia, at WV 62's southern terminus.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/L2FkfyGoYeziUF5Z7

This one only has one bypass lane.

[freebrickproductions]

How common is it in the USA for the through movement to just not have any signal at all?

At least in my part of the USA, I'd say sporadically from what I've seen:

South Portland, ME
Nashua, NH
Everett, MA
Medford, MA
San Jose, CA - Seagull/Continuous Green T

One here in Huntsville, AL, as well:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7134583,-86.6886603,3a,41.2y,259.15h,88.77t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1saqoYU77rGyTqQ_vQ1ExaUw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D1.2310790970045389%26panoid%3DaqoYU77rGyTqQ_vQ1ExaUw%26yaw%3D259.14533963155435!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyNC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

Used to be a doghouse that never went red, IIRC.

[fwydriver405]

How common is it in the USA for the through movement to just not have any signal at all?

At least in my part of the USA, I'd say sporadically from what I've seen:

South Portland, ME
Nashua, NH
Everett, MA
Medford, MA
San Jose, CA - Seagull/Continuous Green T

One here in Huntsville, AL, as well:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7134583,-86.6886603,3a,41.2y,259.15h,88.77t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1saqoYU77rGyTqQ_vQ1ExaUw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D1.2310790970045389%26panoid%3DaqoYU77rGyTqQ_vQ1ExaUw%26yaw%3D259.14533963155435!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMyNC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

Used to be a doghouse that never went red, IIRC.

Oh, can't forget these two in MD, which are also double permissive left turns (via FRA):

Just gonna dust off this thread. Looking for some input from those familiar with Maryland.

I found a left turn in Silver Spring (Route 650 onto Columbia Pike). It's a dual left turn with a flashing red arrow, with turns permitted after a full stop.

I've read before that flashing red arrows are pretty ubiquitous in Maryland (versus flashing yellow arrows). I can tell from Street View that many single lefts have FRAs, but not many dual lefts.

Anyone know how often Maryland installs dual left flashing red arrows?

Here is the Gmaps link to the intersection below: https://goo.gl/Lr4gDD -- according to Historic Aerials, the second left turn lane was added in 2005.

As promised above, I went to videotape the above signal and how it operates yesterday. Operates as a two phase signal - NB thrus then the SB protected left, similar to the Silver Springs example.