This is a question I was curious about, is there anyone who uses flashing red or yellow arrows for right turns....I know a few places where such a situation would be very convenient.
So I was wondering if anyone knows if they are used anywhere, or if they are even allowed.
Right-facing FYAs have begun showing up on a limited basis. Some areas seem to use them more than others. There are none anywhere near me; the first one that comes to mind is the NB 15 Fwy off-ramp towards the Timpanogos Hwy (EB), south of Salt Lake City. I believe it goes red only when pedestrians activate the crosswalk.
Frankly, I'd place right-facing FYAs at the end of all channelized right turns, but that's rather expensive.
https://goo.gl/fekIE5
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FLLBScDb.png&hash=8fe9cd0729456a0b7242673b59b72e5a50b1874c)
Interesting....anyways if you want to know, this is a situation I propose that uses both FYA and FRA for right turns:
Yes, I'm using another Brampton example, this time Kensington and Central Park, in the Bramalea City Centre vicinity:
https://goo.gl/maps/d9wTwCTVnKQ2 (https://goo.gl/maps/d9wTwCTVnKQ2)
In this situation, ALL right turns on red are prohibited because of a potential conflict involving the transit signal. The transit signal when it gets its green has its movement entirely protected, everything else in the intersection faces a red.
Below is how I envision signalling this intersection to eliminate the restriction, in this intersection, only EB to NB Kensington to Central Park left turn has any form of protection.
Central Park Dr NB-SB Main | || | Kensington Rd WB Left Signal | Kensington Rd WB Main Signal | Kensington Rd WB Right Signal | || | Transit Signal |
Red Ball | || | | Red Ball | FLASHING Red Arrow | || | Red Ball |
Green Ball | || | | Red Ball | FLASHING Red Arrow | || | Red Ball |
Yellow Ball | || | | Red Ball | FLASHING Red Arrow | || | Red Ball |
Red Ball | || | | Red Ball | FLASHING Red Arrow | || | Red Ball |
Red Ball | || | | Red Ball | SOLID Red Arrow | || | Green Ball |
Red Ball | || | | Red Ball | SOLID Red Arrow | || | Yellow Ball |
Red Ball | || | | Red Ball | SOLID Red Arrow | || | Red Ball |
Red Ball | || | Green Arrow | Green Ball | FLASHING Yellow Arrow | || | Red Ball |
Red Ball | || | Yellow Arrow | Green Ball | FLASHING Yellow Arrow | || | Red Ball |
Red Ball | || | | Green Ball | FLASHING Yellow Arrow | || | Red Ball |
Red Ball | || | | Yellow Ball | SOLID Yellow Arrow | || | Red Ball |
Red Ball | || | | Red Ball | SOLID Red Arrow | || | Red Ball |
Red Ball | || | | Red Ball | SOLID Red Arrow | || | Green Ball |
Red Ball | || | | Red Ball | SOLID Red Arrow | || | Yellow Ball |
Red Ball | || | | Red Ball | SOLID Red Arrow | || | Red Ball |
And then repeat again....if there is no bus waiting at the transit signal stop line, then the transit signal phase shall be skipped.
NYC has been installing them at more places in the past few years. Mostly 3 section signals to give pedestrians a headstart on crossing.
Example
Queens Blvd/Thompson Ave and Van Dam St, Queens (https://goo.gl/maps/HzSiEyZg2Pk)
I've seen two of these in Oregon - they're both FYA right turn signals. One is at the intersection of NW 3rd St and NW Van Buren Ave (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.5662944,-123.2599223,3a,75y,6.01h,79.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1agZBEKcxa-cgyC3g5Sh-g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) in Corvallis where drivers travelling on Oregon Route 34 turn right to remain on OR 34.
I think another one of these has (or is about to) pop up along Cornelius Pass Rd in Hillsboro between Cornell Rd and US Route 26. It's a four-headed signal on the right corner of the intersection, so what else could it be? There's been lots of road work in this area the past few months, and it looks like a new multi-use path is opening just immediately to the east of Cornelius Pass Rd (which runs north-south). I bet the new signal will have a red arrow when trail users need to cross the cross street, and will otherwise be green or flashing yellow.
Flashing yellow arrows are shown quite a bit in the US MUTCD as an option for right turns. As for places I've seen FYA's for right turns:
* A couple locations in Madison, WI
* SB Big Bend Road at MO 100/Machester around St. Louis (Streetview (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.612648,-90.3229896,3a,24.1y,209.8h,87.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxmzHWxUGaaPCJrdjzHc8Ng!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)
* A couple corners around Lincoln, Nebraska
IMHO using a FYA for a right turn ought to be looked into if there is a separate right turn lane, a crosswalk parallel to the right turn lane, and a leading ped phase is desired, and maybe in cases with dual right turn lanes opposed by a permissive left turn movement.
VDOT installed a FRA for a right turn on the Gallows Rd offramp from the Capital Beltway.
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8531297,-77.2194489,3a,75y,38.04h,67.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smna_rRKxU2coMKvbgRo1qw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en-US
I made a video several months ago about a T-junction near me that uses only flashing yellow arrows:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk4m574Bi-o
Last October, we were heading west from Austin TX on U.S. 290 when we saw a right turn FYA at an intersection, William Cannon Drive, that has continuous flow left turn lanes. I didn't have time to analyze the intersection, but it seems logical that a right turn off of U.S. 290 creates a conflict with traffic in the continuous flow left turn lane that is turning onto the cross street at the same time that 290 traffic has a through traffic indication. Thus, there was the flashing yellow right turn arrow to warn of the potential conflict. (Not sure whether the right turn traffic has a merge lane to minimize the conflict).
EDIT: To follow up, Google Maps has the intersection on satellite view, and the left turning traffic from the CFL lane is in a single lane directed to the left lane of the cross street. Right turn traffic from the opposite direction is OK if it turns into the right lane.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 06, 2016, 01:31:45 AM
I made a video several months ago about a T-junction near me that uses only flashing yellow arrows:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk4m574Bi-o
Is that protected right turn REALLY necessary? I don't see hordes of pedestrians waiting to cross.....
Since it's a RED right arrow, are right turns fully prohibited on that phase?
Fully protected right turn signals are relatively rare in Ontario, I can only think of a few off the top of my head, but in all those cases, there is a "No Right Turn on Red" sign that goes with the signal, I see no such signal here, are turns allowed on red arrow?
Quote from: jakeroot on August 04, 2016, 11:26:04 PM
Frankly, I'd place right-facing FYAs at the end of all channelized right turns, but that's rather expensive.
If I had a dollar for every time I had to sit behind someone that stops at one of those even though the lane continues past the intersection, I'd be a rich man.
Quote from: MisterSG1 on August 04, 2016, 11:15:55 PM
This is a question I was curious about, is there anyone who uses flashing red or yellow arrows for right turns....I know a few places where such a situation would be very convenient.
So I was wondering if anyone knows if they are used anywhere, or if they are even allowed.
I want to say there is at least one signal of this type in Tucson, near the downtown area.
Quote from: MisterSG1 on August 09, 2016, 09:48:20 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 06, 2016, 01:31:45 AM
I made a video several months ago about a T-junction near me that uses only flashing yellow arrows:
Is that protected right turn REALLY necessary? I don't see hordes of pedestrians waiting to cross.....
Since it's a RED right arrow, are right turns fully prohibited on that phase?
Fully protected right turn signals are relatively rare in Ontario, I can only think of a few off the top of my head, but in all those cases, there is a "No Right Turn on Red" sign that goes with the signal, I see no such signal here, are turns allowed on red arrow?
A right turn against a red arrow is permitted in Washington State. The only time a red arrow shows is when the cross street has a green. If the pedestrian light is activated, it flashes yellow. In other words, it's not a protected turn.
Is there a lot of pedestrians? No. But this is a new standard for the city of Federal Way. All T intersections will now have left and right facing FYAs.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 09, 2016, 03:42:17 PM
Quote from: MisterSG1 on August 09, 2016, 09:48:20 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 06, 2016, 01:31:45 AM
I made a video several months ago about a T-junction near me that uses only flashing yellow arrows:
Is that protected right turn REALLY necessary? I don't see hordes of pedestrians waiting to cross.....
Since it's a RED right arrow, are right turns fully prohibited on that phase?
Fully protected right turn signals are relatively rare in Ontario, I can only think of a few off the top of my head, but in all those cases, there is a "No Right Turn on Red" sign that goes with the signal, I see no such signal here, are turns allowed on red arrow?
A right turn against a red arrow is permitted in Washington State. The only time a red arrow shows is when the cross street has a green. If the pedestrian light is activated, it flashes yellow. In other words, it's not a protected turn.
Is there a lot of pedestrians? No. But this is a new standard for the city of Federal Way. All T intersections will now have left and right facing FYAs.
Regarding the bolded statement: If the green arrow is on, then no other conflicting movements are going simultaneously–in this scenario, it
is protected. The right turn signal is basically protected/permitted (the mode being determined by the presence of pedestrians).
Federal Way's policy here is actually a decent one, but only if it is desired/necessary to have pedestrian crossings to both sides of the "T" stem–one FYA can be eliminated if the adjacent ped crossing is removed.
Quote from: roadfro on August 10, 2016, 02:30:33 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 09, 2016, 03:42:17 PM
Quote from: MisterSG1 on August 09, 2016, 09:48:20 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 06, 2016, 01:31:45 AM
I made a video several months ago about a T-junction near me that uses only flashing yellow arrows:
Is that protected right turn REALLY necessary? I don't see hordes of pedestrians waiting to cross.....
Since it's a RED right arrow, are right turns fully prohibited on that phase?
Fully protected right turn signals are relatively rare in Ontario, I can only think of a few off the top of my head, but in all those cases, there is a "No Right Turn on Red" sign that goes with the signal, I see no such signal here, are turns allowed on red arrow?
A right turn against a red arrow is permitted in Washington State. The only time a red arrow shows is when the cross street has a green. If the pedestrian light is activated, it flashes yellow. In other words, it's not a protected turn.
Is there a lot of pedestrians? No. But this is a new standard for the city of Federal Way. All T intersections will now have left and right facing FYAs.
Regarding the bolded statement: If the green arrow is on, then no other conflicting movements are going simultaneously–in this scenario, it is protected. The right turn signal is basically protected/permitted (the mode being determined by the presence of pedestrians).
Sorry. When I said it wasn't protected, what I meant was that you can turn on red (SG1 brought up prohibited turns, so that's where my mind was).
Quote from: roadfro on August 10, 2016, 02:30:33 AM
Federal Way's policy here is actually a decent one, but only if it is desired/necessary to have pedestrian crossings to both sides of the "T" stem–one FYA can be eliminated if the adjacent ped crossing is removed.
They could do that, but I fail to see the reason why. It doesn't really hurt having it on both sides.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 10, 2016, 07:59:56 AM
Quote from: roadfro on August 10, 2016, 02:30:33 AM
Federal Way's policy here is actually a decent one, but only if it is desired/necessary to have pedestrian crossings to both sides of the "T" stem–one FYA can be eliminated if the adjacent ped crossing is removed.
They could do that, but I fail to see the reason why. It doesn't really hurt having it on both sides.
It would basically come down to a capacity issue.
For example, one scenario would remove the crosswalk conflicting with the left turn coming from the stem, to in essence always have a protected left turn. Since the right turn on red is usually allowed, more signal time for the stem leg is needed to clear left turns as opposed to right turns. Eliminating the crosswalk across the left turn allows more time to clear that lane between cycles. This is a typical setup in Nevada–and is nearly always implemented if it's a dual left turn, since Nevada very rarely allows dual permitted left turn scenarios.
Quote from: roadfro on August 10, 2016, 04:01:56 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 10, 2016, 07:59:56 AM
Quote from: roadfro on August 10, 2016, 02:30:33 AM
Federal Way's policy here is actually a decent one, but only if it is desired/necessary to have pedestrian crossings to both sides of the "T" stem–one FYA can be eliminated if the adjacent ped crossing is removed.
They could do that, but I fail to see the reason why. It doesn't really hurt having it on both sides.
It would basically come down to a capacity issue.
For example, one scenario would remove the crosswalk conflicting with the left turn coming from the stem, to in essence always have a protected left turn. Since the right turn on red is usually allowed, more signal time for the stem leg is needed to clear left turns as opposed to right turns. Eliminating the crosswalk across the left turn allows more time to clear that lane between cycles. This is a typical setup in Nevada–and is nearly always implemented if it's a dual left turn, since Nevada very rarely allows dual permitted left turn scenarios.
Also the right turn lane will get a protected signal during the cross streets left turn even if it missed it during the crossing phase. In this scenario, the left turn seemingly could end up never getting a protected phase if the crosswalk is getting used continuously.
NYSDOT Region 4 has them in Geneva. In this case, the right turn in one direction immediately crosses a rail line, so this allows the right turn to be independent of the straight movement.
Quote from: cl94 on August 11, 2016, 11:43:51 AM
NYSDOT Region 4 has them in Geneva. In this case, the right turn in one direction immediately crosses a rail line, so this allows the right turn to be independent of the straight movement.
Couldn't Region 4 achieve the same result using a 3-head signal? I'm all for using FYA's at right turns, particularly when there's a crosswalk involved. But I can't think of a use for it here, lest there's a crosswalk?
Quote from: jakeroot on August 11, 2016, 03:51:37 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 11, 2016, 11:43:51 AM
NYSDOT Region 4 has them in Geneva. In this case, the right turn in one direction immediately crosses a rail line, so this allows the right turn to be independent of the straight movement.
Couldn't Region 4 achieve the same result using a 3-head signal? I'm all for using FYA's at right turns, particularly when there's a crosswalk involved. But I can't think of a use for it here, lest there's a crosswalk?
It's 3 head (no green) and NTOR because of the railroad tracks.
Quote from: cl94 on August 11, 2016, 06:25:51 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 11, 2016, 03:51:37 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 11, 2016, 11:43:51 AM
NYSDOT Region 4 has them in Geneva. In this case, the right turn in one direction immediately crosses a rail line, so this allows the right turn to be independent of the straight movement.
Couldn't Region 4 achieve the same result using a 3-head signal? I'm all for using FYA's at right turns, particularly when there's a crosswalk involved. But I can't think of a use for it here, lest there's a crosswalk?
It's 3 head (no green) and NTOR because of the railroad tracks.
Gotcha. So the standard phase is flashing yellow?
Quote from: jakeroot on August 11, 2016, 08:03:13 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 11, 2016, 06:25:51 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 11, 2016, 03:51:37 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 11, 2016, 11:43:51 AM
NYSDOT Region 4 has them in Geneva. In this case, the right turn in one direction immediately crosses a rail line, so this allows the right turn to be independent of the straight movement.
Couldn't Region 4 achieve the same result using a 3-head signal? I'm all for using FYA's at right turns, particularly when there's a crosswalk involved. But I can't think of a use for it here, lest there's a crosswalk?
It's 3 head (no green) and NTOR because of the railroad tracks.
Gotcha. So the standard phase is flashing yellow?
Correct. Here is the intersection (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8702222,-76.9783974,3a,37.9y,230.05h,85.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUxl55oZZMO_knrs9lhQXcw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) in GSV. To the south (left) is a park with little traffic, so right turn traffic will rarely face a red arrow unless there is a train.
Quote from: cl94 on August 11, 2016, 09:59:58 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 11, 2016, 08:03:13 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 11, 2016, 06:25:51 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 11, 2016, 03:51:37 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 11, 2016, 11:43:51 AM
NYSDOT Region 4 has them in Geneva. In this case, the right turn in one direction immediately crosses a rail line, so this allows the right turn to be independent of the straight movement.
Couldn't Region 4 achieve the same result using a 3-head signal? I'm all for using FYA's at right turns, particularly when there's a crosswalk involved. But I can't think of a use for it here, lest there's a crosswalk?
It's 3 head (no green) and NTOR because of the railroad tracks.
Gotcha. So the standard phase is flashing yellow?
Correct. Here is the intersection (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8702222,-76.9783974,3a,37.9y,230.05h,85.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUxl55oZZMO_knrs9lhQXcw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) in GSV. To the south (left) is a park with little traffic, so right turn traffic will rarely face a red arrow unless there is a train.
Very cool! So it acts more like a slip lane with a yield sign? Does it go red when EB traffic has a green arrow?
Quote from: jakeroot on August 11, 2016, 10:10:47 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 11, 2016, 09:59:58 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 11, 2016, 08:03:13 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 11, 2016, 06:25:51 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 11, 2016, 03:51:37 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 11, 2016, 11:43:51 AM
NYSDOT Region 4 has them in Geneva. In this case, the right turn in one direction immediately crosses a rail line, so this allows the right turn to be independent of the straight movement.
Couldn't Region 4 achieve the same result using a 3-head signal? I'm all for using FYA's at right turns, particularly when there's a crosswalk involved. But I can't think of a use for it here, lest there's a crosswalk?
It's 3 head (no green) and NTOR because of the railroad tracks.
Gotcha. So the standard phase is flashing yellow?
Correct. Here is the intersection (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8702222,-76.9783974,3a,37.9y,230.05h,85.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUxl55oZZMO_knrs9lhQXcw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) in GSV. To the south (left) is a park with little traffic, so right turn traffic will rarely face a red arrow unless there is a train.
Very cool! So it acts more like a slip lane with a yield sign? Does it go red when EB traffic has a green arrow?
I don't remember. Generally, New York's FYAs flash when opposing traffic is green even if the adjacent through movement is red, so it is possible that it doesn't. Region 4 has been quite aggressive and inventive with their FYAs and I'd love to see stuff like this throughout the state where a grade crossing is next to an intersection.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 09, 2016, 03:42:17 PM
Quote from: MisterSG1 on August 09, 2016, 09:48:20 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 06, 2016, 01:31:45 AM
I made a video several months ago about a T-junction near me that uses only flashing yellow arrows:
Is that protected right turn REALLY necessary? I don't see hordes of pedestrians waiting to cross.....
Since it's a RED right arrow, are right turns fully prohibited on that phase?
Fully protected right turn signals are relatively rare in Ontario, I can only think of a few off the top of my head, but in all those cases, there is a "No Right Turn on Red" sign that goes with the signal, I see no such signal here, are turns allowed on red arrow?
A right turn against a red arrow is permitted in Washington State. The only time a red arrow shows is when the cross street has a green. If the pedestrian light is activated, it flashes yellow. In other words, it's not a protected turn.
Is there a lot of pedestrians? No. But this is a new standard for the city of Federal Way. All T intersections will now have left and right facing FYAs.
Maybe it's just me, but I'm VEHEMENTLY against a red right arrow meaning that one can make the turn if they stop. If that's what they intend the right arrow to mean, then they should use a red ball.....since arrows are the way of the future, make it a flashing red right arrow, thus it has the same meaning as we assume with a flashing red ball.
The whole concept of giving a left and right PROTECTED phase has me still scratching my head when there are very few pedestrians here. Instead, why couldn't they use this approach with the sequence:
FLASHING Right Red Arrow (Displayed when cross traffic has the green)
FLASHING Yellow Arrow (Displayed when this T intersection has the "green")
SOLID Yellow Arrow
FLASHING Right Red Arrow
I honestly think the green right arrow phase is totally unnecessary, it would only make sense if there were a serious flux of pedestrians, but it looks like this intersection in suburbia sees very little action pedestrian wise, so really, what's the point?
There's one in Coeur d' Alene. It did (and still does) confuse me a little bit.
Here's an image and street view link:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FWi2K4vO.png&hash=a0d184af4254da0d22d58862465788808116530a) (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6933162,-116.8043556,3a,47.3y,240.1h,84.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHFfpHYA1lLXD6QpQYdgSBg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1)
This right turn arrow flashes yellow when the traffic from the right has both a green ball and a protected green left turn. Based on that, there should be no conflicting movements you have to yield to (for pedestrians, in your direction, straight traffic has a red, and for the other direction, the protected left turn coming from the right makes it a no; if it implies yield to cars, cars from the left have a red as well). It feels to me like it should be a green arrow. At least some of the time (I never saw a green arrow used at this light the handful of times I drove through it). Whenever I came up to this intersection, I was never quite sure what I was supposed to be yielding to, so I felt like I had to look everywhere (pedestrians in both crosswalks and cars from the left and across from me, even though none of those should conflict in that case).
Also worth noting, it felt very weird how few FYAs were used at left turns around there. They existed, but were not all that common. In Boise, Meridian, and Nampa, there are at nearly every intersection where the can be (as in, they don't put them on dual turn lanes, or if a straight lane is an option turn, or if there is bad sight distance). The small number around that I can think of that are still protected only, are in the process of being replaced (ran into a few new 4 section signal heads in Nampa, though the FYA head was covered for now).
Quote from: MisterSG1 on August 12, 2016, 05:53:50 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 09, 2016, 03:42:17 PM
Quote from: MisterSG1 on August 09, 2016, 09:48:20 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 06, 2016, 01:31:45 AM
I made a video several months ago about a T-junction near me that uses only flashing yellow arrows:
Is that protected right turn REALLY necessary? I don't see hordes of pedestrians waiting to cross.....
Since it's a RED right arrow, are right turns fully prohibited on that phase?
Fully protected right turn signals are relatively rare in Ontario, I can only think of a few off the top of my head, but in all those cases, there is a "No Right Turn on Red" sign that goes with the signal, I see no such signal here, are turns allowed on red arrow?
A right turn against a red arrow is permitted in Washington State. The only time a red arrow shows is when the cross street has a green. If the pedestrian light is activated, it flashes yellow. In other words, it's not a protected turn.
Is there a lot of pedestrians? No. But this is a new standard for the city of Federal Way. All T intersections will now have left and right facing FYAs.
Maybe it's just me, but I'm VEHEMENTLY against a red right arrow meaning that one can make the turn if they stop. If that's what they intend the right arrow to mean, then they should use a red ball.....since arrows are the way of the future, make it a flashing red right arrow, thus it has the same meaning as we assume with a flashing red ball.
The whole concept of giving a left and right PROTECTED phase has me still scratching my head when there are very few pedestrians here. Instead, why couldn't they use this approach with the sequence:
FLASHING Right Red Arrow (Displayed when cross traffic has the green)
FLASHING Yellow Arrow (Displayed when this T intersection has the "green")
SOLID Yellow Arrow
FLASHING Right Red Arrow
I honestly think the green right arrow phase is totally unnecessary, it would only make sense if there were a serious flux of pedestrians, but it looks like this intersection in suburbia sees very little action pedestrian wise, so really, what's the point?
Well, for one, most of our signals use either all arrows or all orbs; combination signals are relatively rare around here. The law here in Washington State has permitted left and right turns on red arrows for several decades, and the vast majority of drivers are aware of the law.
Could they have used an orb for the four signals? I suppose, but the law doesn't require orbs, so I don't see the point. Could the right red arrow flash? Sure, but it may cause confusion because the left red arrow wouldn't be. Could you do away with a green phase here? I don't see how. You can't turn left onto a two way street on red, and if the crosswalk is off, why have it flash yellow? The point of Federal Way's setup is to draw attention to the rare times that pedestrians cross -- show green arrows when there is no pedestrians, but flash the yellow arrow when there is. Driver awareness will naturally heighten when they see the rare flashing yellow arrow; ultimately, that's the point here. They could have just used normal three-head, three orb signals, but they chose to go one step further, and draw attention to the crosswalk.
As mentioned in the above paragraph, but just in case you missed it: Your proposed sequence ignores the left turn.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 12, 2016, 06:55:47 PM
Quote from: MisterSG1 on August 12, 2016, 05:53:50 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 09, 2016, 03:42:17 PM
Quote from: MisterSG1 on August 09, 2016, 09:48:20 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 06, 2016, 01:31:45 AM
I made a video several months ago about a T-junction near me that uses only flashing yellow arrows:
Is that protected right turn REALLY necessary? I don't see hordes of pedestrians waiting to cross.....
Since it's a RED right arrow, are right turns fully prohibited on that phase?
Fully protected right turn signals are relatively rare in Ontario, I can only think of a few off the top of my head, but in all those cases, there is a "No Right Turn on Red" sign that goes with the signal, I see no such signal here, are turns allowed on red arrow?
A right turn against a red arrow is permitted in Washington State. The only time a red arrow shows is when the cross street has a green. If the pedestrian light is activated, it flashes yellow. In other words, it's not a protected turn.
Is there a lot of pedestrians? No. But this is a new standard for the city of Federal Way. All T intersections will now have left and right facing FYAs.
Maybe it's just me, but I'm VEHEMENTLY against a red right arrow meaning that one can make the turn if they stop. If that's what they intend the right arrow to mean, then they should use a red ball.....since arrows are the way of the future, make it a flashing red right arrow, thus it has the same meaning as we assume with a flashing red ball.
The whole concept of giving a left and right PROTECTED phase has me still scratching my head when there are very few pedestrians here. Instead, why couldn't they use this approach with the sequence:
FLASHING Right Red Arrow (Displayed when cross traffic has the green)
FLASHING Yellow Arrow (Displayed when this T intersection has the "green")
SOLID Yellow Arrow
FLASHING Right Red Arrow
I honestly think the green right arrow phase is totally unnecessary, it would only make sense if there were a serious flux of pedestrians, but it looks like this intersection in suburbia sees very little action pedestrian wise, so really, what's the point?
Well, for one, most of our signals use either all arrows or all orbs; combination signals are relatively rare around here. The law here in Washington State has permitted left and right turns on red arrows for several decades, and the vast majority of drivers are aware of the law.
Could they have used an orb for the four signals? I suppose, but the law doesn't require orbs, so I don't see the point. Could the right red arrow flash? Sure, but it may cause confusion because the left red arrow wouldn't be. Could you do away with a green phase here? I don't see how. You can't turn left onto a two way street on red, and if the crosswalk is off, why have it flash yellow? The point of Federal Way's setup is to draw attention to the rare times that pedestrians cross -- show green arrows when there is no pedestrians, but flash the yellow arrow when there is. Driver awareness will naturally heighten when they see the rare flashing yellow arrow; ultimately, that's the point here. They could have just used normal three-head, three orb signals, but they chose to go one step further, and draw attention to the crosswalk.
As mentioned in the above paragraph, but just in case you missed it: Your proposed sequence ignores the left turn.
Ok, using my tables from before, this is how I would sequence this intersection, ignoring any protected lefts on the cross intersection:
S 304 St Main Signal | || | 28 Ave S LEFT SIGNAL | 28 Ave S RIGHT SIGNAL |
Red Ball | || | SOLID Red Arrow | FLASHING Red Arrow |
Green Ball | || | SOLID Red Arrow | FLASHING Red Arrow |
Yellow Ball | || | SOLID Red Arrow | FLASHING Red Arrow |
Red Ball | || | SOLID Red Arrow | FLASHING Red Arrow |
Red Ball | || | SOLID Green Arrow | FLASHING Yellow Arrow |
Red Ball | || | SOLID Yellow Arrow | FLASHING Yellow Arrow |
Red Ball | || | FLASHING Yellow Arrow | FLASHING Yellow Arrow |
Red Ball | || | SOLID Yellow Arrow | SOLID Yellow Arrow |
Red Ball | || | SOLID Red Arrow | FLASHING Red Arrow |
If you would like me to explain it further, I can.
Quote from: doorknob60 on August 12, 2016, 06:24:49 PM
There's one in Coeur d' Alene. It did (and still does) confuse me a little bit.
Here's an image and street view link:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FWi2K4vO.png&hash=a0d184af4254da0d22d58862465788808116530a) (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6933162,-116.8043556,3a,47.3y,240.1h,84.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHFfpHYA1lLXD6QpQYdgSBg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1)
This right turn arrow flashes yellow when the traffic from the right has both a green ball and a protected green left turn. Based on that, there should be no conflicting movements you have to yield to (for pedestrians, in your direction, straight traffic has a red, and for the other direction, the protected left turn coming from the right makes it a no; if it implies yield to cars, cars from the left have a red as well). It feels to me like it should be a green arrow. At least some of the time (I never saw a green arrow used at this light the handful of times I drove through it). Whenever I came up to this intersection, I was never quite sure what I was supposed to be yielding to, so I felt like I had to look everywhere (pedestrians in both crosswalks and cars from the left and across from me, even though none of those should conflict in that case).
Also worth noting, it felt very weird how few FYAs were used at left turns around there. They existed, but were not all that common. In Boise, Meridian, and Nampa, there are at nearly every intersection where the can be (as in, they don't put them on dual turn lanes, or if a straight lane is an option turn, or if there is bad sight distance). The small number around that I can think of that are still protected only, are in the process of being replaced (ran into a few new 4 section signal heads in Nampa, though the FYA head was covered for now).
I believe that the answer to your question about why is there a flashing yellow arrow at the same time as a concurrent left green arrow would be U-turning traffic. Cars on Riverstone who would be making u-turns on the green arrow would conflict with cars making a right turn from Lakewood to Riverstone. Many states (like CA) would only permit a green right arrow concurrent with a complimentary green left arrow if u-turns are prohibited. Since they are not at this intersection, a green right arrow would be inappropriate. Other states (like MD) allow green right arrows at the same time as u-turns and it has led to many close calls. I say either prohibit the u-turn or put in a FYA like in your example above.
Quote from: mrsman on September 02, 2016, 05:42:24 PM
Quote from: doorknob60 on August 12, 2016, 06:24:49 PM
There's one in Coeur d' Alene. It did (and still does) confuse me a little bit.
Here's an image and street view link:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FWi2K4vO.png&hash=a0d184af4254da0d22d58862465788808116530a) (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6933162,-116.8043556,3a,47.3y,240.1h,84.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHFfpHYA1lLXD6QpQYdgSBg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1)
This right turn arrow flashes yellow when the traffic from the right has both a green ball and a protected green left turn. Based on that, there should be no conflicting movements you have to yield to (for pedestrians, in your direction, straight traffic has a red, and for the other direction, the protected left turn coming from the right makes it a no; if it implies yield to cars, cars from the left have a red as well). It feels to me like it should be a green arrow. At least some of the time (I never saw a green arrow used at this light the handful of times I drove through it). Whenever I came up to this intersection, I was never quite sure what I was supposed to be yielding to, so I felt like I had to look everywhere (pedestrians in both crosswalks and cars from the left and across from me, even though none of those should conflict in that case).
Also worth noting, it felt very weird how few FYAs were used at left turns around there. They existed, but were not all that common. In Boise, Meridian, and Nampa, there are at nearly every intersection where the can be (as in, they don't put them on dual turn lanes, or if a straight lane is an option turn, or if there is bad sight distance). The small number around that I can think of that are still protected only, are in the process of being replaced (ran into a few new 4 section signal heads in Nampa, though the FYA head was covered for now).
I believe that the answer to your question about why is there a flashing yellow arrow at the same time as a concurrent left green arrow would be U-turning traffic. Cars on Riverstone who would be making u-turns on the green arrow would conflict with cars making a right turn from Lakewood to Riverstone. Many states (like CA) would only permit a green right arrow concurrent with a complimentary green left arrow if u-turns are prohibited. Since they are not at this intersection, a green right arrow would be inappropriate. Other states (like MD) allow green right arrows at the same time as u-turns and it has led to many close calls. I say either prohibit the u-turn or put in a FYA like in your example above.
I can understand that if it's just a yellow line, but even with a median or curbing it's still prohibited?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 03, 2016, 08:11:14 AM
I can understand that if it's just a yellow line, but even with a median or curbing it's still prohibited?
California has some of the most stringent U-turn laws of any state that I've visited. The law defines nearly all scenarios where you could make a U-turn, and whether or not it would be legal.
Here's the whole rundown: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/hdbk/turns
Legal U-turns:
- Across a double yellow line when it is safe and legal.
- In a residential district:
--> If there are no vehicles approaching you within 200 feet.
--> Whenever a traffic sign, light, or signal protects you from approaching vehicles.
- At an intersection on a green light or green arrow, unless a "No Uturn" sign is posted.
- On a divided highway, only if an opening is provided in the center divider.
Illegal U-turns:
- At or on a railroad crossing.
- On a divided highway by crossing a dividing section, curb, strip of land, or two sets of double yellow lines.
- Where you cannot see clearly 200 feet in each direction because of a curve, hill, rain, fog, or other reason.
- Where a "No U-Turn" sign is posted.
- When other vehicles may hit you.
- On a one-way street.
- In front of a fire station. Never use a fire station driveway to turn your vehicle around.
- In business districts. Areas with churches, apartments, multiple dwelling houses, clubs, and public buildings (except schools) are also considered to be business districts. Turn only at an intersection, unless a sign prohibits it, or where openings are provided for turns.