Is FYA or FRA allowed for right turns?

[doorknob60]

There's one in Coeur d' Alene. It did (and still does) confuse me a little bit.

Here's an image and street view link:



This right turn arrow flashes yellow when the traffic from the right has both a green ball and a protected green left turn. Based on that, there should be no conflicting movements you have to yield to (for pedestrians, in your direction, straight traffic has a red, and for the other direction, the protected left turn coming from the right makes it a no; if it implies yield to cars, cars from the left have a red as well). It feels to me like it should be a green arrow. At least some of the time (I never saw a green arrow used at this light the handful of times I drove through it). Whenever I came up to this intersection, I was never quite sure what I was supposed to be yielding to, so I felt like I had to look everywhere (pedestrians in both crosswalks and cars from the left and across from me, even though none of those should conflict in that case).

Also worth noting, it felt very weird how few FYAs were used at left turns around there. They existed, but were not all that common. In Boise, Meridian, and Nampa, there are at nearly every intersection where the can be (as in, they don't put them on dual turn lanes, or if a straight lane is an option turn, or if there is bad sight distance). The small number around that I can think of that are still protected only, are in the process of being replaced (ran into a few new 4 section signal heads in Nampa, though the FYA head was covered for now).

[jakeroot]

I made a video several months ago about a T-junction near me that uses only flashing yellow arrows:

Is that protected right turn REALLY necessary? I don't see hordes of pedestrians waiting to cross.....

Since it's a RED right arrow, are right turns fully prohibited on that phase?

Fully protected right turn signals are relatively rare in Ontario, I can only think of a few off the top of my head, but in all those cases, there is a "No Right Turn on Red" sign that goes with the signal, I see no such signal here, are turns allowed on red arrow?

A right turn against a red arrow is permitted in Washington State. The only time a red arrow shows is when the cross street has a green. If the pedestrian light is activated, it flashes yellow. In other words, it's not a protected turn.

Is there a lot of pedestrians? No. But this is a new standard for the city of Federal Way. All T intersections will now have left and right facing FYAs.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm VEHEMENTLY against a red right arrow meaning that one can make the turn if they stop. If that's what they intend the right arrow to mean, then they should use a red ball.....since arrows are the way of the future, make it a flashing red right arrow, thus it has the same meaning as we assume with a flashing red ball.

The whole concept of giving a left and right PROTECTED phase has me still scratching my head when there are very few pedestrians here. Instead, why couldn't they use this approach with the sequence:

FLASHING Right Red Arrow (Displayed when cross traffic has the green)
FLASHING Yellow Arrow (Displayed when this T intersection has the "green")
SOLID Yellow Arrow
FLASHING Right Red Arrow

I honestly think the green right arrow phase is totally unnecessary, it would only make sense if there were a serious flux of pedestrians, but it looks like this intersection in suburbia sees very little action pedestrian wise, so really, what's the point?

Well, for one, most of our signals use either all arrows or all orbs; combination signals are relatively rare around here. The law here in Washington State has permitted left and right turns on red arrows for several decades, and the vast majority of drivers are aware of the law.

Could they have used an orb for the four signals? I suppose, but the law doesn't require orbs, so I don't see the point. Could the right red arrow flash? Sure, but it may cause confusion because the left red arrow wouldn't be. Could you do away with a green phase here? I don't see how. You can't turn left onto a two way street on red, and if the crosswalk is off, why have it flash yellow? The point of Federal Way's setup is to draw attention to the rare times that pedestrians cross -- show green arrows when there is no pedestrians, but flash the yellow arrow when there is. Driver awareness will naturally heighten when they see the rare flashing yellow arrow; ultimately, that's the point here. They could have just used normal three-head, three orb signals, but they chose to go one step further, and draw attention to the crosswalk.

As mentioned in the above paragraph, but just in case you missed it: Your proposed sequence ignores the left turn.

[MisterSG1]

I made a video several months ago about a T-junction near me that uses only flashing yellow arrows:

Is that protected right turn REALLY necessary? I don't see hordes of pedestrians waiting to cross.....

Since it's a RED right arrow, are right turns fully prohibited on that phase?

Fully protected right turn signals are relatively rare in Ontario, I can only think of a few off the top of my head, but in all those cases, there is a "No Right Turn on Red" sign that goes with the signal, I see no such signal here, are turns allowed on red arrow?

A right turn against a red arrow is permitted in Washington State. The only time a red arrow shows is when the cross street has a green. If the pedestrian light is activated, it flashes yellow. In other words, it's not a protected turn.

Is there a lot of pedestrians? No. But this is a new standard for the city of Federal Way. All T intersections will now have left and right facing FYAs.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm VEHEMENTLY against a red right arrow meaning that one can make the turn if they stop. If that's what they intend the right arrow to mean, then they should use a red ball.....since arrows are the way of the future, make it a flashing red right arrow, thus it has the same meaning as we assume with a flashing red ball.

The whole concept of giving a left and right PROTECTED phase has me still scratching my head when there are very few pedestrians here. Instead, why couldn't they use this approach with the sequence:

FLASHING Right Red Arrow (Displayed when cross traffic has the green)
FLASHING Yellow Arrow (Displayed when this T intersection has the "green")
SOLID Yellow Arrow
FLASHING Right Red Arrow

I honestly think the green right arrow phase is totally unnecessary, it would only make sense if there were a serious flux of pedestrians, but it looks like this intersection in suburbia sees very little action pedestrian wise, so really, what's the point?

Well, for one, most of our signals use either all arrows or all orbs; combination signals are relatively rare around here. The law here in Washington State has permitted left and right turns on red arrows for several decades, and the vast majority of drivers are aware of the law.

Could they have used an orb for the four signals? I suppose, but the law doesn't require orbs, so I don't see the point. Could the right red arrow flash? Sure, but it may cause confusion because the left red arrow wouldn't be. Could you do away with a green phase here? I don't see how. You can't turn left onto a two way street on red, and if the crosswalk is off, why have it flash yellow? The point of Federal Way's setup is to draw attention to the rare times that pedestrians cross -- show green arrows when there is no pedestrians, but flash the yellow arrow when there is. Driver awareness will naturally heighten when they see the rare flashing yellow arrow; ultimately, that's the point here. They could have just used normal three-head, three orb signals, but they chose to go one step further, and draw attention to the crosswalk.

As mentioned in the above paragraph, but just in case you missed it: Your proposed sequence ignores the left turn.

Ok, using my tables from before, this is how I would sequence this intersection, ignoring any protected lefts on the cross intersection:

S 304 St Main Signal	||	28 Ave S LEFT SIGNAL	28 Ave S RIGHT SIGNAL
Red Ball	||	SOLID Red Arrow	FLASHING Red Arrow
Green Ball	||	SOLID Red Arrow	FLASHING Red Arrow
Yellow Ball	||	SOLID Red Arrow	FLASHING Red Arrow
Red Ball	||	SOLID Red Arrow	FLASHING Red Arrow
Red Ball	||	SOLID Green Arrow	FLASHING Yellow Arrow
Red Ball	||	SOLID Yellow Arrow	FLASHING Yellow Arrow
Red Ball	||	FLASHING Yellow Arrow	FLASHING Yellow Arrow
Red Ball	||	SOLID Yellow Arrow	SOLID Yellow Arrow
Red Ball	||	SOLID Red Arrow	FLASHING Red Arrow

If you would like me to explain it further, I can.

[mrsman]

There's one in Coeur d' Alene. It did (and still does) confuse me a little bit.

Here's an image and street view link:



This right turn arrow flashes yellow when the traffic from the right has both a green ball and a protected green left turn. Based on that, there should be no conflicting movements you have to yield to (for pedestrians, in your direction, straight traffic has a red, and for the other direction, the protected left turn coming from the right makes it a no; if it implies yield to cars, cars from the left have a red as well). It feels to me like it should be a green arrow. At least some of the time (I never saw a green arrow used at this light the handful of times I drove through it). Whenever I came up to this intersection, I was never quite sure what I was supposed to be yielding to, so I felt like I had to look everywhere (pedestrians in both crosswalks and cars from the left and across from me, even though none of those should conflict in that case).

Also worth noting, it felt very weird how few FYAs were used at left turns around there. They existed, but were not all that common. In Boise, Meridian, and Nampa, there are at nearly every intersection where the can be (as in, they don't put them on dual turn lanes, or if a straight lane is an option turn, or if there is bad sight distance). The small number around that I can think of that are still protected only, are in the process of being replaced (ran into a few new 4 section signal heads in Nampa, though the FYA head was covered for now).

I believe that the answer to your question about why is there a flashing yellow arrow at the same time as a concurrent left green arrow would be U-turning traffic. Cars on Riverstone who would be making u-turns on the green arrow would conflict with cars making a right turn from Lakewood to Riverstone.  Many states (like CA) would only permit a green right arrow concurrent with a complimentary green left arrow if u-turns are prohibited.  Since they are not at this intersection, a green right arrow would be inappropriate.  Other states (like MD) allow green right arrows at the same time as u-turns and it has led to many close calls.  I say either prohibit the u-turn or put in a FYA like in your example above.

[jeffandnicole]

There's one in Coeur d' Alene. It did (and still does) confuse me a little bit.

Here's an image and street view link:



This right turn arrow flashes yellow when the traffic from the right has both a green ball and a protected green left turn. Based on that, there should be no conflicting movements you have to yield to (for pedestrians, in your direction, straight traffic has a red, and for the other direction, the protected left turn coming from the right makes it a no; if it implies yield to cars, cars from the left have a red as well). It feels to me like it should be a green arrow. At least some of the time (I never saw a green arrow used at this light the handful of times I drove through it). Whenever I came up to this intersection, I was never quite sure what I was supposed to be yielding to, so I felt like I had to look everywhere (pedestrians in both crosswalks and cars from the left and across from me, even though none of those should conflict in that case).

Also worth noting, it felt very weird how few FYAs were used at left turns around there. They existed, but were not all that common. In Boise, Meridian, and Nampa, there are at nearly every intersection where the can be (as in, they don't put them on dual turn lanes, or if a straight lane is an option turn, or if there is bad sight distance). The small number around that I can think of that are still protected only, are in the process of being replaced (ran into a few new 4 section signal heads in Nampa, though the FYA head was covered for now).

I believe that the answer to your question about why is there a flashing yellow arrow at the same time as a concurrent left green arrow would be U-turning traffic. Cars on Riverstone who would be making u-turns on the green arrow would conflict with cars making a right turn from Lakewood to Riverstone.  Many states (like CA) would only permit a green right arrow concurrent with a complimentary green left arrow if u-turns are prohibited.  Since they are not at this intersection, a green right arrow would be inappropriate.  Other states (like MD) allow green right arrows at the same time as u-turns and it has led to many close calls.  I say either prohibit the u-turn or put in a FYA like in your example above.

I can understand that if it's just a yellow line, but even with a median or curbing it's still prohibited?

[jakeroot]

I can understand that if it's just a yellow line, but even with a median or curbing it's still prohibited?

California has some of the most stringent U-turn laws of any state that I've visited. The law defines nearly all scenarios where you could make a U-turn, and whether or not it would be legal.

Here's the whole rundown: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/hdbk/turns

Legal U-turns:
- Across a double yellow line when it is safe and legal.
- In a residential district:
--> If there are no vehicles approaching you within 200 feet.
--> Whenever a traffic sign, light, or signal protects you from approaching vehicles.
- At an intersection on a green light or green arrow, unless a "No Uturn" sign is posted.
- On a divided highway, only if an opening is provided in the center divider.

Illegal U-turns:
- At or on a railroad crossing.
- On a divided highway by crossing a dividing section, curb, strip of land, or two sets of double yellow lines.
- Where you cannot see clearly 200 feet in each direction because of a curve, hill, rain, fog, or other reason.
- Where a "No U-Turn" sign is posted.
- When other vehicles may hit you.
- On a one-way street.
- In front of a fire station. Never use a fire station driveway to turn your vehicle around.
- In business districts. Areas with churches, apartments, multiple dwelling houses, clubs, and public buildings (except schools) are also considered to be business districts. Turn only at an intersection, unless a sign prohibits it, or where openings are provided for turns.