Besides Breezewood and i-93 in NH, what are some good examples of substandard interstate interchanges or general features? one that comes to mind is I-75 in mackanaw city https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7829082,-84.7316542,16.8z it's even substandard on the bridge.
Quote from: silverback1065 on December 16, 2019, 10:27:28 PM
Besides Breezewood and i-93 in NH, what are some good examples of substandard interstate interchanges or general features? one that comes to mind is I-75 in mackanaw city https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7829082,-84.7316542,16.8z it's even substandard on the bridge.
Among substandard features:
The Thousand Island Bridge in New York carries I-81, even though the bridge is only two lanes.
I-70 in Wheeling WV goes through a two lane tunnel.
I-40 westbound in NC (near the Tennessee border) has a couple of RIRO junctions with service roads.
I'm sure there are others.
Quote from: dlsterner on December 17, 2019, 12:04:50 AM
I-70 in Wheeling WV goes through a two lane tunnel.
The tunnel is 4 lanes in 2 tubes, but the interchange just west of the tunnel has lane drops to one lane each way on I-70.
Is this ever going to be upgraded to a full 4-lane standard?
Another one in Michigan: I-75 to I-75 in Detroit. Slow 2-lane ramps to/from the Chrysler and Fisher Freeways, for thru traffic.
Quote from: GaryV on December 17, 2019, 07:29:24 AM
Another one in Michigan: I-75 to I-75 in Detroit. Slow 2-lane ramps to/from the Chrysler and Fisher Freeways, for thru traffic.
Also in Michigan: The I-94/M-10 interchange in Detroit. Those 4 left-exit/left-merge ramps are the pits. When I worked in Downtown Detroit, I had to navigate this mess every work day.
Quote from: silverback1065 on December 16, 2019, 10:27:28 PM
one that comes to mind is I-75 in mackanaw city https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7829082,-84.7316542,16.8z it's even substandard on the bridge.
I can't see how the Mackinac Bridge could ever have its shoulders widened to full interstate specifications, because they'd have to redo the main bridge towers just for starters, and that would be prohibitively expensive:
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.8099856,-84.7288481,3a,75y,87.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swN5KHKB13Ib7AADTKEHVAw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Quote from: dlsterner on December 17, 2019, 12:04:50 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on December 16, 2019, 10:27:28 PM
Besides Breezewood and i-93 in NH, what are some good examples of substandard interstate interchanges or general features? one that comes to mind is I-75 in mackanaw city https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7829082,-84.7316542,16.8z it's even substandard on the bridge.
Among substandard features:
The Thousand Island Bridge in New York carries I-81, even though the bridge is only two lanes.
I-70 in Wheeling WV goes through a two lane tunnel.
I-40 westbound in NC (near the Tennessee border) has a couple of RIRO junctions with service roads.
I'm sure there are others.
Google says the thousand island bridge is in canada.
Quote from: silverback1065 on December 17, 2019, 11:32:20 AM
Quote from: dlsterner on December 17, 2019, 12:04:50 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on December 16, 2019, 10:27:28 PM
Besides Breezewood and i-93 in NH, what are some good examples of substandard interstate interchanges or general features? one that comes to mind is I-75 in mackanaw city https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7829082,-84.7316542,16.8z it's even substandard on the bridge.
Among substandard features:
The Thousand Island Bridge in New York carries I-81, even though the bridge is only two lanes.
I-70 in Wheeling WV goes through a two lane tunnel.
I-40 westbound in NC (near the Tennessee border) has a couple of RIRO junctions with service roads.
I'm sure there are others.
Google says the thousand island bridge is in canada.
It crosses the border.
Basically, any freeway interchange where the on-ramps have a stop sign rather than an acceleration and merging zone is substandard. And there are many older freeways out there that have such designs, from California to Massachusetts.
Quote from: silverback1065 on December 17, 2019, 11:32:20 AM
Quote from: dlsterner on December 17, 2019, 12:04:50 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on December 16, 2019, 10:27:28 PM
Besides Breezewood and i-93 in NH, what are some good examples of substandard interstate interchanges or general features? one that comes to mind is I-75 in mackanaw city https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7829082,-84.7316542,16.8z it's even substandard on the bridge.
Among substandard features:
The Thousand Island Bridge in New York carries I-81, even though the bridge is only two lanes.
I-70 in Wheeling WV goes through a two lane tunnel.
I-40 westbound in NC (near the Tennessee border) has a couple of RIRO junctions with service roads.
I'm sure there are others.
Google says the thousand island bridge is in canada.
The Thousand Islands Bridge is technically a system. There are two main bridges - the American Span on I-81 between the US mainland and Wellesley Island, and the Canadian Span on ON 137 between Hill Island and the Canadian mainland. Between the two islands are a pair of smaller bridges the size of a typical interstate underpass - those are the ones that cross the border. Wellesley Island is decently large - I-81 is on it for 3-4 miles and meets interstate standards on it, even though it narrows down to two 11' lanes for the bridge.
Fun fact: the Canadian Span is the only place in Canada where you can pay a toll with E-ZPass without crossing the border.
The I-55 northbound cloverleaf in Memphis.
This will get extremely long if we try to list every interchange on the interstate system that doesn't meet current design standards.
Some states literally have hundreds.
I pan around New England and virtually every interchange is an antiquated mess.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 17, 2019, 05:11:23 PM
This will get extremely long if we try to list every interchange on the interstate system that doesn't meet current design standards.
It's also already been done.
MODS: I suggest a thread merge with
this one (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=6221.msg136401#msg136401).
Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 17, 2019, 05:11:23 PM
This will get extremely long if we try to list every interchange on the interstate system that doesn't meet current design standards.
Some states literally have hundreds.
I pan around New England and virtually every interchange is an antiquated mess.
The original question did not ask for an exhaustive list. It just asked for notable examples.
Quote from: vdeane on December 17, 2019, 12:29:18 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on December 17, 2019, 11:32:20 AM
Quote from: dlsterner on December 17, 2019, 12:04:50 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on December 16, 2019, 10:27:28 PM
Besides Breezewood and i-93 in NH, what are some good examples of substandard interstate interchanges or general features? one that comes to mind is I-75 in mackanaw city https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7829082,-84.7316542,16.8z it's even substandard on the bridge.
Among substandard features:
The Thousand Island Bridge in New York carries I-81, even though the bridge is only two lanes.
I-70 in Wheeling WV goes through a two lane tunnel.
I-40 westbound in NC (near the Tennessee border) has a couple of RIRO junctions with service roads.
I'm sure there are others.
Google says the thousand island bridge is in canada.
The Thousand Islands Bridge is technically a system. There are two main bridges - the American Span on I-81 between the US mainland and Wellesley Island, and the Canadian Span on ON 137 between Hill Island and the Canadian mainland. Between the two islands are a pair of smaller bridges the size of a typical interstate underpass - those are the ones that cross the border. Wellesley Island is decently large - I-81 is on it for 3-4 miles and meets interstate standards on it, even though it narrows down to two 11' lanes for the bridge.
Fun fact: the Canadian Span is the only place in Canada where you can pay a toll with E-ZPass without crossing the border.
Yes, I should have been more specific. I meant the bridge between Wellesley Island and the mainland US, which is part of the Thousand Islands Bridge system. Entirely within the US, designated as part of I-81, and two lanes wide.
Quote from: Beltway on December 17, 2019, 07:16:17 AM
Quote from: dlsterner on December 17, 2019, 12:04:50 AM
I-70 in Wheeling WV goes through a two lane tunnel.
The tunnel is 4 lanes in 2 tubes, but the interchange just west of the tunnel has lane drops to one lane each way on I-70.
Is this ever going to be upgraded to a full 4-lane standard?
Beltway, you are correct. I've only personally travelled through them once a number of years ago, and I guess my memory was a bit faulty. As far as it being upgraded, I do not have any official information, but I would suspect that the existence of I-470 to the south would minimize the need for an I-70 upgrade. Just my opinion.
Quote from: dlsterner on December 17, 2019, 10:45:08 PM
Beltway, you are correct. I've only personally travelled through them once a number of years ago, and I guess my memory was a bit faulty. As far as it being upgraded, I do not have any official information, but I would suspect that the existence of I-470 to the south would minimize the need for an I-70 upgrade. Just my opinion.
I see that the I-70 Wheeling tunnel carries about 51,000 AADT with a 10% large truck percentage.
That level of traffic should cause serious congestion in peak hours on the 2-lane constriction.
For Illinois (not an exhaustive list)
* I-90 at I-39: Particularly the low speed WB to SB ramp that dumps out onto the left side of I-39
* I-39 at US 20, western interchange: Mainline I-39 goes through long single lane ramps
* I-94 at US 41 near the Wisconsin border: Left side exit to SB US 41
* I-290 at Austin Avenue
* I-290 at IL 43
* I-290 at IL 171
* Palatine Road near Wolf Road: The WB entrance could use a longer acceleration lane (https://goo.gl/maps/qXXT2mcwoc4y4iVm8)
I-70 in Frederick, Maryland. You have I-270 inbound traffic merging from the left, and an immediate exit for US 15/340, resulting in a three-way spaghetti junction that really is no good at preventing traffic.
Quote from: silverback1065 on December 16, 2019, 10:27:28 PM
I-93 in NH,
The interchanges are not substandard. If you're referring to the 2-lane section through Franconia Notch, that isn't an interchange, nor is it substandard for the traffic level.
Quote from: Revive 755 on December 17, 2019, 11:19:04 PM
For Illinois (not an exhaustive list)
* I-90 at I-39: Particularly the low speed WB to SB ramp that dumps out onto the left side of I-39
* I-39 at US 20, western interchange: Mainline I-39 goes through long single lane ramps
* I-94 at US 41 near the Wisconsin border: Left side exit to SB US 41
* I-290 at Austin Avenue
* I-290 at IL 43
* I-290 at IL 171
* Palatine Road near Wolf Road: The WB entrance could use a longer acceleration lane (https://goo.gl/maps/qXXT2mcwoc4y4iVm8)
I'd argue many of those I-290 Ave exits between Mannheim and Austin are pretty bad. Not gonna lie I wonder if eliminating one or two of them would help traffic flow through that corridor (along with redoing the left exits of Austin and Harlem)
Quote from: froggie on December 18, 2019, 07:33:22 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on December 16, 2019, 10:27:28 PM
I-93 in NH,
The interchanges are not substandard. If you're referring to the 2-lane section through Franconia Notch, that isn't an interchange, nor is it substandard for the traffic level.
that goes under the general features portion of my original comment.
^ I would argue it doesn't. 2 lanes is plenty adequate for I-93 traffic through the Notch, even on summer weekends.
If you're including "general features", we've (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=6221) had (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=24718) several (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=14714) threads (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=20915) on the subject.
Did they ever get the "no merge area" issues corrected at the I-70/I-81 interchange?
The ramps between I-80 and I-215 at their interchange east of Salt Lake City are an undivided 2-lane roadway (https://goo.gl/maps/n41SbzfSigVwUC7S7) that directly replaced the old SR 171. That interchange has a bunch of other outdated features including some very tight curves and narrow merges, but I'm not sure anything else in there is technically "substandard".
Quote from: US 89 on December 18, 2019, 01:15:03 PM
The ramps between I-80 and I-215 at their interchange east of Salt Lake City are an undivided 2-lane roadway (https://goo.gl/maps/n41SbzfSigVwUC7S7) that directly replaced the old SR 171. That interchange has a bunch of other outdated features including some very tight curves and narrow merges, but I'm not sure anything else in there is technically "substandard".
Cool! Thanks for pointing that interchange out.
Quote from: kphoger on December 18, 2019, 01:44:07 PM
Quote from: US 89 on December 18, 2019, 01:15:03 PM
The ramps between I-80 and I-215 at their interchange east of Salt Lake City are an undivided 2-lane roadway (https://goo.gl/maps/n41SbzfSigVwUC7S7) that directly replaced the old SR 171. That interchange has a bunch of other outdated features including some very tight curves and narrow merges, but I'm not sure anything else in there is technically "substandard".
Cool! Thanks for pointing that interchange out.
What I don't get is why there's a ramp back to westbound 80.
Quote from: GaryV on December 17, 2019, 07:29:24 AM
Another one in Michigan: I-75 to I-75 in Detroit. Slow 2-lane ramps to/from the Chrysler and Fisher Freeways, for thru traffic.
Suggested speed is 25 mph, safely you can do 40-45 around it. I hate that curve.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 18, 2019, 08:09:45 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 18, 2019, 01:44:07 PM
Quote from: US 89 on December 18, 2019, 01:15:03 PM
The ramps between I-80 and I-215 at their interchange east of Salt Lake City are an undivided 2-lane roadway (https://goo.gl/maps/n41SbzfSigVwUC7S7) that directly replaced the old SR 171. That interchange has a bunch of other outdated features including some very tight curves and narrow merges, but I'm not sure anything else in there is technically "substandard".
Cool! Thanks for pointing that interchange out.
What I don't get is why there's a ramp back to westbound 80.
I believe it's left over from when that interchange was first constructed, based on this 1965 historic imagery (https://www.historicaerials.com/location/40.70926402000083/-111.79635975212761/1965/17) where the exit ramp from 80 to Foothill hasn't been finished yet. I have no idea why it wasn't removed after that ramp was built. I guess it's good to have redundancy in case that mile of I-80 ever has to close for whatever reason.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 18, 2019, 08:44:39 PM
Quote from: GaryV on December 17, 2019, 07:29:24 AM
Another one in Michigan: I-75 to I-75 in Detroit. Slow 2-lane ramps to/from the Chrysler and Fisher Freeways, for thru traffic.
Suggested speed is 25 mph, safely you can do 40-45 around it. I hate that curve.
The semis can't - and they've proved it multiple times.
Quote from: GaryV on December 18, 2019, 09:49:52 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 18, 2019, 08:44:39 PM
Quote from: GaryV on December 17, 2019, 07:29:24 AM
Another one in Michigan: I-75 to I-75 in Detroit. Slow 2-lane ramps to/from the Chrysler and Fisher Freeways, for thru traffic.
Suggested speed is 25 mph, safely you can do 40-45 around it. I hate that curve.
The semis can't - and they've proved it multiple times.
Yeah I wouldn't suggest a semi do it.
I-90 exit 63 with CR 1416 in Box Elder, South Dakota. Standards say it should serve both directions, and upgrades are planned for sometime in the next decade. As for 1416 itself, it looks like they may have wanted I-90 to run Texas-style down the median, but instead it was built further north.
I-405/SR 525 and I-5 in Lynnwood, WA. The newly updated ramps from NB 405/SB 525 to SB 5 has ramp metering. It is a freeway to freeway interchange... METERING SHOULD NEVER EXIST ON FREEWAY-TO-FREEWAY INTERCHANGES. Prior to the redesign, only SB 525 to I-5 had metering, which was a relic from when 525 was a Super 2 between SR 99 and I-5.
I-99 and I-70 - A literal Breezewood Interchange, according to Google Maps
I-405/SR 518 and I-5 in Burien/Tukwilla, WA. The EB 518 to NB 405 through lanes drop to a single lane. There is plenty of space for two+ lanes, however, there is a 2-lane ramp from SB 5 to NB 405, which stole one of the lanes under the NB 5 bridge. The NB 5 bridge would have to be replaced to correct this issue.
I-75 and M-59 near Pontiac, MI. Full Cloverleaf, with much more traffic that any Cloverleaf could handle safely or effectively.
i76 Schuylkill Expressway in Philly, too many to count along the entire road. One exit is merely a cut into a wall.
Interstate 75 at state route 155 / mile 216 in McDonough, Georgia.
Worst. Exit. In. Metro. Atlanta. (Did I mention it's my exit?)
https://goo.gl/maps/XKBZuBt6aWFpeHnK7
iPhone
Quote from: TEG24601 on December 19, 2019, 05:08:55 PM
I-405/SR 525 and I-5 in Lynnwood, WA. The newly updated ramps from NB 405/SB 525 to SB 5 has ramp metering. It is a freeway to freeway interchange... METERING SHOULD NEVER EXIST ON FREEWAY-TO-FREEWAY INTERCHANGES. Prior to the redesign, only SB 525 to I-5 had metering, which was a relic from when 525 was a Super 2 between SR 99 and I-5.
Northbound 167 freeway onto the 405, and eastbound 518 freeway onto the southbound 5 freeway has a ramp meter. The former is brand new, but the latter has been in place for a long time. I don't really see any issues with ramp metering for freeway-to-freeway interchanges, assuming it's done properly and not abused. If freeways are meant to be the top-tier of roads, backing up traffic along one freeway, to avoid backups on another freeway, entirely misses the point of ramp meters.
Not sure I agree on the 5/405/525 interchange. Compared to crap like the 512/5 "freeway" interchange, at least the ramps are free-flowing (if only 3/4 of an interchange). No left turn to contend with!
Quote from: SteveG1988 on December 19, 2019, 06:55:12 PM
One exit is merely a cut into a wall.
What does this mean?
Quote from: hbelkins on December 18, 2019, 01:02:46 PM
Did they ever get the "no merge area" issues corrected at the I-70/I-81 interchange?
Not all of the "no merge area" portions of the interchange have been corrected. There are still lots of areas within the interchange with very little room to merge. The SHA has finished rebuilding the westbound bridges through the interchange but has yet to do any work on the eastbound bridges.
Quote from: SteveG1988 on December 19, 2019, 06:55:12 PM
i76 Schuylkill Expressway in Philly, too many to count along the entire road. One exit is merely a cut into a wall.
almost every urban interstate in pennsylvania is hot garbage. the rural ones arent much better either.
Quote from: kphoger on December 20, 2019, 01:20:12 PM
Quote from: SteveG1988 on December 19, 2019, 06:55:12 PM
One exit is merely a cut into a wall.
What does this mean?
There is a wall on the right side....and there is basically an exit carved into it. minimal decel lane
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9277125,-75.1956089,3a,75y,333.52h,77.8t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sGve0lX4EaD_BNIy2NRBPXw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DGve0lX4EaD_BNIy2NRBPXw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D25.907606%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
Quote from: US 89 on December 18, 2019, 01:15:03 PM
The ramps between I-80 and I-215 at their interchange east of Salt Lake City are an undivided 2-lane roadway (https://goo.gl/maps/n41SbzfSigVwUC7S7) that directly replaced the old SR 171. That interchange has a bunch of other outdated features including some very tight curves and narrow merges, but I'm not sure anything else in there is technically "substandard".
Come on, even the road nameplate says "3000 South" instead of "I-80 Ramp" or something like that.
Quote from: SteveG1988 on December 23, 2019, 06:10:38 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 20, 2019, 01:20:12 PM
Quote from: SteveG1988 on December 19, 2019, 06:55:12 PM
One exit is merely a cut into a wall.
What does this mean?
There is a wall on the right side....and there is basically an exit carved into it. minimal decel lane
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9277125,-75.1956089,3a,75y,333.52h,77.8t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sGve0lX4EaD_BNIy2NRBPXw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DGve0lX4EaD_BNIy2NRBPXw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D25.907606%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
On NY 198 in Buffalo, there's one where one could hardly even call it a ramp... they basically merged the service road and mainline for a block by taking out the wall (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9257319,-78.84702,3a,47.1y,310.2h,77.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9EEPjwGgqGnp3LgtJE8f4w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).
Quote from: vdeane on December 23, 2019, 08:39:39 PM
On NY 198 in Buffalo, there's one where one could hardly even call it a ramp... they basically merged the service road and mainline for a block by taking out the wall (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9257319,-78.84702,3a,47.1y,310.2h,77.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9EEPjwGgqGnp3LgtJE8f4w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).
Are you legally permitted to enter the highway there?
Quote from: sprjus4 on December 23, 2019, 09:19:48 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 23, 2019, 08:39:39 PM
On NY 198 in Buffalo, there's one where one could hardly even call it a ramp... they basically merged the service road and mainline for a block by taking out the wall (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9257319,-78.84702,3a,47.1y,310.2h,77.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9EEPjwGgqGnp3LgtJE8f4w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).
Are you legally permitted to enter the highway there?
Signage on the service road treats it as a merge (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9259842,-78.8473028,3a,88.6y,300.45h,83.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTBQP2EW_3tv1xTJTAj9Vtg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) and the shape of the barrier on the far end implies that you can, though there isn't signage definitively saying such as there is for exiting the highway.
Quote from: vdeane on December 23, 2019, 09:25:28 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on December 23, 2019, 09:19:48 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 23, 2019, 08:39:39 PM
On NY 198 in Buffalo, there's one where one could hardly even call it a ramp... they basically merged the service road and mainline for a block by taking out the wall (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9257319,-78.84702,3a,47.1y,310.2h,77.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9EEPjwGgqGnp3LgtJE8f4w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).
Are you legally permitted to enter the highway there?
Signage on the service road treats it as a merge (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9259842,-78.8473028,3a,88.6y,300.45h,83.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTBQP2EW_3tv1xTJTAj9Vtg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) and the shape of the barrier on the far end implies that you can, though there isn't signage definitively saying such as there is for exiting the highway.
According to Google Maps you can't.
Also, the intersection between Sea Breeze Dr and Pearl Ave in Rochester used to be pretty funky. See for yourself.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Wip6ifdRuA6opqbd6 (on mobile, no access to wayback tool)
Quote from: vdeane on December 23, 2019, 09:25:28 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on December 23, 2019, 09:19:48 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 23, 2019, 08:39:39 PM
On NY 198 in Buffalo, there's one where one could hardly even call it a ramp... they basically merged the service road and mainline for a block by taking out the wall (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9257319,-78.84702,3a,47.1y,310.2h,77.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9EEPjwGgqGnp3LgtJE8f4w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).
Are you legally permitted to enter the highway there?
Signage on the service road treats it as a merge (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9259842,-78.8473028,3a,88.6y,300.45h,83.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTBQP2EW_3tv1xTJTAj9Vtg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) and the shape of the barrier on the far end implies that you can, though there isn't signage definitively saying such as there is for exiting the highway.
Looking at new imagery from the other side, and aerial, I actually see now that they restriped it to be an exit only.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9263195,-78.8484121,3a,75y,97.05h,84.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shCBykxczbEzNh3LCbdCUDA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
I-57 and IL-17, Kankakee, Illinois: Tight entry ramps, including one that could be considered suicidal.
https://goo.gl/maps/pcKcL6DcCKmGpZSo9
https://goo.gl/maps/7EcJaTiuf9GJi3EX9
I-55 and IL-53, Bolingbrook, Illinois: Old, small diamond, but substandard due to the considerable volume of truck traffic using the interchange.
https://goo.gl/maps/fmJAkhFxmrP5GKvm9
IL-56 and Golf View Road, Sugar Grove, Illinois: A freaking RIRO on a freeway segment.
https://goo.gl/maps/oAavY9bra3fMUg3R8
https://goo.gl/maps/TrCMEZbe5S2pRpZN8
Burns Harbor Interchange (I-80, 90, & 94), Lake Station, Indiana: A trumpet next to a cloverleaf carrying a major interstate through its loops.
https://goo.gl/maps/MLS9zeXGpreANH6o8
Lake Shore Drive and 47th Street, Chicago: Basically a set of left turns for northbound traffic. Used to be worse when it was not divided from the main northbound lanes.
https://goo.gl/maps/PL5Quqc7Ye8WfNSf8
https://goo.gl/maps/tM2KKaMKMBaEZU3AA
Mannheim Road (US-12/20/45) and North Avenue (IL-64), Stone Park, Illinois: A strange RIRO cloverleaf.
https://goo.gl/maps/j4oRkV6N6zQfV1ym9
https://goo.gl/maps/oPZTMtJgEhDtPFqn7
I-75 at M-21 in Flint. Guess which side of the interchange had a problem with ROW acquisition. Very dangerous going southbound; the speed limit is 70 while the acceleration lane is nowhere near long enough, considering the slow speed at which vehicles are forced to enter.
https://goo.gl/maps/qVtzq7u7M1vp8qDLA
NY 7 and NY 5 in Schenectady, NY.
Quote from: hbelkins on December 17, 2019, 04:11:28 PM
The I-55 northbound cloverleaf in Memphis.
In the same vein is the I-74/I-80 interchange in Illinois, where you need to navigate a cloverleaf to continue on your interstate of choice (74 or 80).
meh.
WB I-72 @ Springfield, IL – same deal, have to follow a loop ramp
NB I-44 @ Fidelity, MO – same deal, have to follow a loop ramp
SB Ave of the Saints @ Clear Lake, IA – at least it gets a c/d lane
Quote from: paulthemapguy on December 24, 2019, 12:27:28 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 17, 2019, 04:11:28 PM
The I-55 northbound cloverleaf in Memphis.
In the same vein is the I-74/I-80 interchange in Illinois, where you need to navigate a cloverleaf to continue on your interstate of choice (74 or 80).
I always found it odd that the I-74/I-80 interchange is OK, but Kentucky was required to rebuild the I-24/Purchase and WK/Pennyrile interchanges in order to sign I-69.
Quote from: hbelkins on December 24, 2019, 04:17:19 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on December 24, 2019, 12:27:28 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 17, 2019, 04:11:28 PM
The I-55 northbound cloverleaf in Memphis.
In the same vein is the I-74/I-80 interchange in Illinois, where you need to navigate a cloverleaf to continue on your interstate of choice (74 or 80).
I always found it odd that the I-74/I-80 interchange is OK, but Kentucky was required to rebuild the I-24/Purchase and WK/Pennyrile interchanges in order to sign I-69.
Or the I-69/I-55 interchange in Mississippi. I presume I-74/I-80 is older, but I-69/I-55 can't be too different in age from those Kentucky interchanges.
Quote from: vdeane on December 24, 2019, 04:33:19 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 24, 2019, 04:17:19 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on December 24, 2019, 12:27:28 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 17, 2019, 04:11:28 PM
The I-55 northbound cloverleaf in Memphis.
In the same vein is the I-74/I-80 interchange in Illinois, where you need to navigate a cloverleaf to continue on your interstate of choice (74 or 80).
I always found it odd that the I-74/I-80 interchange is OK, but Kentucky was required to rebuild the I-24/Purchase and WK/Pennyrile interchanges in order to sign I-69.
Or the I-69/I-55 interchange in Mississippi. I presume I-74/I-80 is older, but I-69/I-55 can't be too different in age from those Kentucky interchanges.
Or the I-73/I-85 interchange in North Carolina. Signed through there about 2006 - 2008, and I-73 North traverses a single-lane 25 mph loop ramp.
IMO, all of these interchanges should have been rebuilt / designed to accommodate the through movement. At least by the FHWA requiring Kentucky to rebuild three interchanges to accommodate I-69, it's now properly equipped unlike the others to handle long distance traffic.
Quote from: Revive 755 on December 17, 2019, 11:19:04 PM
For Illinois (not an exhaustive list)
* I-90 at I-39: Particularly the low speed WB to SB ramp that dumps out onto the left side of I-39
* I-39 at US 20, western interchange: Mainline I-39 goes through long single lane ramps
* I-94 at US 41 near the Wisconsin border: Left side exit to SB US 41
* I-290 at Austin Avenue
* I-290 at IL 43
* I-290 at IL 171
* Palatine Road near Wolf Road: The WB entrance could use a longer acceleration lane (https://goo.gl/maps/qXXT2mcwoc4y4iVm8)
I-94 (Edens Expressway) merge from the outbound Kennedy (I-90/94) Express lanes - a scary short left merge.
Mike
Quote from: hbelkins on December 24, 2019, 04:17:19 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on December 24, 2019, 12:27:28 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 17, 2019, 04:11:28 PM
The I-55 northbound cloverleaf in Memphis.
In the same vein is the I-74/I-80 interchange in Illinois, where you need to navigate a cloverleaf to continue on your interstate of choice (74 or 80).
I always found it odd that the I-74/I-80 interchange is OK, but Kentucky was required to rebuild the I-24/Purchase and WK/Pennyrile interchanges in order to sign I-69.
74/80 was built with Interstate funds according to the design standards of the day, so it gets grandfathered in. Pretty sure WK/Pennyrile had to be rebuilt due to the ramp & taper designs used in its original construction. And since 69 is a much newer designation, it has to meet the more recent design standards unlike 74/80.
While 24/Purchase was also technically built with Interstate-of-the-day, FHWA likely required upgrading because of 69 being a new designation.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on December 24, 2019, 08:55:50 AM
I-75 at M-21 in Flint. Guess which side of the interchange had a problem with ROW acquisition. Very dangerous going southbound; the speed limit is 70 while the acceleration lane is nowhere near long enough, considering the slow speed at which vehicles are forced to enter.
https://goo.gl/maps/qVtzq7u7M1vp8qDLA
At least Flint has a movie theater now. Speaking of Flint, one cloverleaf didn't have enough merge space to get on the freeway, so they leveled it to make a reverse jughandle for using the ramp across the street. You get to wait and go through the intersection twice. They've since reconfigured the interchange again (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9727665,-83.7251691,277m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) but you can see where it used to be.
Wollchet Drive & SR 16, Gig Harbor: (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.3208188,-122.5907008,511m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) very tight turns near the end that you have to slow down for before accelerating, on BOTH onramps. Further north are simple northbound-only T-intersections for a business access and a cemetery, so they're not going for Interstate standards anyway.
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on December 25, 2019, 09:43:27 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on December 24, 2019, 08:55:50 AM
I-75 at M-21 in Flint. Guess which side of the interchange had a problem with ROW acquisition. Very dangerous going southbound; the speed limit is 70 while the acceleration lane is nowhere near long enough, considering the slow speed at which vehicles are forced to enter.
https://goo.gl/maps/qVtzq7u7M1vp8qDLA
At least Flint has a movie theater now. Speaking of Flint, one cloverleaf didn't have enough merge space to get on the freeway, so they leveled it to make a reverse jughandle for using the ramp across the street. You get to wait and go through the intersection twice. They've since reconfigured the interchange again (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9727665,-83.7251691,277m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) but you can see where it used to be.
Wollchet Drive & SR 16, Gig Harbor: (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.3208188,-122.5907008,511m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) very tight turns near the end that you have to slow down for before accelerating, on BOTH onramps. Further north are simple northbound-only T-intersections for a business access and a cemetery, so they're not going for Interstate standards anyway.
When has Flint not had a movie theater?
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 26, 2019, 09:57:15 AM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on December 25, 2019, 09:43:27 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on December 24, 2019, 08:55:50 AM
I-75 at M-21 in Flint. Guess which side of the interchange had a problem with ROW acquisition. Very dangerous going southbound; the speed limit is 70 while the acceleration lane is nowhere near long enough, considering the slow speed at which vehicles are forced to enter.
https://goo.gl/maps/qVtzq7u7M1vp8qDLA
At least Flint has a movie theater now. Speaking of Flint, one cloverleaf didn't have enough merge space to get on the freeway, so they leveled it to make a reverse jughandle for using the ramp across the street. You get to wait and go through the intersection twice. They've since reconfigured the interchange again (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9727665,-83.7251691,277m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) but you can see where it used to be.
Wollchet Drive & SR 16, Gig Harbor: (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.3208188,-122.5907008,511m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) very tight turns near the end that you have to slow down for before accelerating, on BOTH onramps. Further north are simple northbound-only T-intersections for a business access and a cemetery, so they're not going for Interstate standards anyway.
When has Flint not had a movie theater?
Maybe the *City* of Flint, and not any of its suburbs?
Mike
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 26, 2019, 09:57:15 AM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on December 25, 2019, 09:43:27 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on December 24, 2019, 08:55:50 AM
I-75 at M-21 in Flint. Guess which side of the interchange had a problem with ROW acquisition. Very dangerous going southbound; the speed limit is 70 while the acceleration lane is nowhere near long enough, considering the slow speed at which vehicles are forced to enter.
https://goo.gl/maps/qVtzq7u7M1vp8qDLA
At least Flint has a movie theater now. Speaking of Flint, one cloverleaf didn't have enough merge space to get on the freeway, so they leveled it to make a reverse jughandle for using the ramp across the street. You get to wait and go through the intersection twice. They've since reconfigured the interchange again (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9727665,-83.7251691,277m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) but you can see where it used to be.
Wollchet Drive & SR 16, Gig Harbor: (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.3208188,-122.5907008,511m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) very tight turns near the end that you have to slow down for before accelerating, on BOTH onramps. Further north are simple northbound-only T-intersections for a business access and a cemetery, so they're not going for Interstate standards anyway.
When has Flint not had a movie theater?
The end of the movie Roger and Me has the quote, "This movie can not be shown in Flint. All the movie theaters have closed." I guess things have improved such that they can show it, so there's some improvement.
Quote from: froggie on December 25, 2019, 09:20:26 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 24, 2019, 04:17:19 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on December 24, 2019, 12:27:28 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 17, 2019, 04:11:28 PM
The I-55 northbound cloverleaf in Memphis.
In the same vein is the I-74/I-80 interchange in Illinois, where you need to navigate a cloverleaf to continue on your interstate of choice (74 or 80).
I always found it odd that the I-74/I-80 interchange is OK, but Kentucky was required to rebuild the I-24/Purchase and WK/Pennyrile interchanges in order to sign I-69.
74/80 was built with Interstate funds according to the design standards of the day, so it gets grandfathered in. Pretty sure WK/Pennyrile had to be rebuilt due to the ramp & taper designs used in its original construction. And since 69 is a much newer designation, it has to meet the more recent design standards unlike 74/80.
While 24/Purchase was also technically built with Interstate-of-the-day, FHWA likely required upgrading because of 69 being a new designation.
Which begs the question... why did I-69 need to meet modern standards in Kentucky, but not in Mississippi?
^ Unless there's something I missed (and please point out specifics), it did meet standards in Mississippi. By definition, the cloverleaf at 55/69/269 is not substandard....it meets all the modern design standards for an Interstate cloverleaf interchange...ramp widths, tapers, the whole nine yards.
The WK/Pennyrile interchange did not fully meet those standards...I'm not certain on 24/Purchase. KTC simply opted to go with direct movements as part of the upgrade.
Is it not true that interstates are no longer allowed to follow single-lane loop ramps (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.8612469,-89.9903038,3a,21.7y,90.59h,90.41t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sRf7Fuq-1cQyHPCANtgCJMQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DRf7Fuq-1cQyHPCANtgCJMQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D194.53806%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)?
I don't know if they're "substandard" in the strictest sense but the interchanges I like driving through least around here are US 169's interchanges with 63rd Ave, Medicine Lake Road, and Cedar Lake Road. Short exit ramps, short on-ramps with short acceleration lanes.
Quote from: vdeane on December 27, 2019, 08:50:12 PM
Is it not true that interstates are no longer allowed to follow single-lane loop ramps (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.8612469,-89.9903038,3a,21.7y,90.59h,90.41t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sRf7Fuq-1cQyHPCANtgCJMQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DRf7Fuq-1cQyHPCANtgCJMQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D194.53806%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)?
Still better than I-55 in Memphis :bigass:
Quote from: vdeane on December 27, 2019, 08:50:12 PM
Is it not true that interstates are no longer allowed to follow single-lane loop ramps (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.8612469,-89.9903038,3a,21.7y,90.59h,90.41t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sRf7Fuq-1cQyHPCANtgCJMQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DRf7Fuq-1cQyHPCANtgCJMQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D194.53806%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)?
Was that set as a rule to begin with? Rationale with 55/69/269 may also be that you have 269 continuing as a mainline east of 55.
Quote from: froggie on December 31, 2019, 06:18:30 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 27, 2019, 08:50:12 PM
Is it not true that interstates are no longer allowed to follow single-lane loop ramps (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.8612469,-89.9903038,3a,21.7y,90.59h,90.41t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sRf7Fuq-1cQyHPCANtgCJMQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DRf7Fuq-1cQyHPCANtgCJMQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D194.53806%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)?
Was that set as a rule to begin with? Rationale with 55/69/269 may also be that you have 269 continuing as a mainline east of 55.
I certainly recall hearing of it as justification for the elaborate ramps for the I-69/Pennyrile/Western Kentucky interchange. After all, there is a mainline parkway continuing east where I-69 turns north in Kentucky.
If there is such a rule, it probably has something to due with the attentiveness of the various FHWA state/division offices.
Quote from: kphogerNB I-44 @ Fidelity, MO – same deal, have to follow a loop ramp
I think you meant I-49. IIRC there were proposals to have I-49 replace MO 249 and part of MO 171, which would eliminate this one. How the interchange at the I-49/MO 171 gets done will be interesting to watch.
Quote from: froggie on December 31, 2019, 06:18:30 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 27, 2019, 08:50:12 PM
Is it not true that interstates are no longer allowed to follow single-lane loop ramps (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.8612469,-89.9903038,3a,21.7y,90.59h,90.41t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sRf7Fuq-1cQyHPCANtgCJMQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DRf7Fuq-1cQyHPCANtgCJMQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D194.53806%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)?
Was that set as a rule to begin with?
It's almost like the theory certain people believe that left exits are prohibited on the interstate highways... it's perceived as substandard, but there's no rule against it.
Quote from: sprjus4 on December 31, 2019, 06:54:57 PM
It's almost like the theory certain people believe that left exits are prohibited on the interstate highways... it's perceived as substandard, but there's no rule against it.
They are prohibited by sound engineering judgement.
Re: cloverleaf interchanges, I thought the rule was that they were allowed in new construction on Interstates, but C/D roads are required. 55/69/269 and 73/85 both meet this, while 69/Pennyrile/WK did not. KYTC probably decided to add direct ramps to better handle traffic loads instead of retrofitting the existing interchange.
Interstate 895 in Baltimore, Maryland is almost entirely pre-Interstate design, and it shows in the interchanges. Here are some of the ramps (this is not a complete list):
Southbound only Exit 3 to Inner Loop I-695 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/39%C2%B014'02.1%22N+76%C2%B039'59.0%22W/@39.2339131,-76.6685777,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x89c803aed6f483b7:0x44896a84223e758!2sBaltimore,+MD!3b1!8m2!3d39.2903848!4d-76.6121893!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d39.2339086!4d-76.6663888) (very sharp ramp);
Northbound entrance from northbound MD-295 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/39%C2%B013'53.8%22N+76%C2%B038'57.1%22W/@39.2316121,-76.6513867,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x89c803aed6f483b7:0x44896a84223e758!2sBaltimore,+MD!3b1!8m2!3d39.2903848!4d-76.6121893!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d39.2316081!4d-76.6491978) (sharp ramp);
Extremely sharp loop ramp from I-895 southbound to Potee Street (https://www.google.com/maps/place/39%C2%B014'24.1%22N+76%C2%B036'43.3%22W/@39.2400311,-76.6142027,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x89c803aed6f483b7:0x44896a84223e758!2sBaltimore,+MD!3b1!8m2!3d39.2903848!4d-76.6121893!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d39.2400265!4d-76.6120144) (Potee Street is MD-2, but is not signed here);
Sharp ramp to Shell Road southbound (https://www.google.com/maps/place/39%C2%B014'27.8%22N+76%C2%B035'38.6%22W/@39.2410701,-76.5962337,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x89c803aed6f483b7:0x44896a84223e758!2sBaltimore,+MD!3b1!8m2!3d39.2903848!4d-76.6121893!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d39.2410656!4d-76.5940447); and
Sharp ramps from eastbound U.S. 40 and Erdman Avenue to southbound I-895 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/39%C2%B017'57.2%22N+76%C2%B032'55.7%22W/@39.2992371,-76.5509967,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x89c803aed6f483b7:0x44896a84223e758!2sBaltimore,+MD!3b1!8m2!3d39.2903848!4d-76.6121893!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d39.2992326!4d-76.5488075).
Quote from: Beltway on December 31, 2019, 08:50:45 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on December 31, 2019, 06:54:57 PM
It's almost like the theory certain people believe that left exits are prohibited on the interstate highways... it's perceived as substandard, but there's no rule against it.
They are prohibited by sound engineering judgement.
But it is not against interstate standards.
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 01, 2020, 01:05:01 AM
Quote from: Beltway on December 31, 2019, 08:50:45 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on December 31, 2019, 06:54:57 PM
It's almost like the theory certain people believe that left exits are prohibited on the interstate highways... it's perceived as substandard, but there's no rule against it.
They are prohibited by sound engineering judgement.
But it is not against interstate standards.
It meets basic interstate standards, so that's all it matters.
Quote from: tolbs17 on January 01, 2020, 01:19:21 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 01, 2020, 01:05:01 AM
Quote from: Beltway on December 31, 2019, 08:50:45 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on December 31, 2019, 06:54:57 PM
It's almost like the theory certain people believe that left exits are prohibited on the interstate highways... it's perceived as substandard, but there's no rule against it.
They are prohibited by sound engineering judgement.
But it is not against interstate standards.
It meets basic interstate standards, so that's all it matters.
I'm not advocating for keeping left exits, but it's not prohibiting an interstate highway from being designated.
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 01, 2020, 01:21:57 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on January 01, 2020, 01:19:21 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 01, 2020, 01:05:01 AM
Quote from: Beltway on December 31, 2019, 08:50:45 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on December 31, 2019, 06:54:57 PM
It's almost like the theory certain people believe that left exits are prohibited on the interstate highways... it's perceived as substandard, but there's no rule against it.
They are prohibited by sound engineering judgement.
But it is not against interstate standards.
It meets basic interstate standards, so that's all it matters.
I'm not advocating for keeping left exits, but it's not prohibiting an interstate highway from being designated.
Take a look at I-40 Business in Winston-Salem.
Quote from: tolbs17 on January 01, 2020, 01:19:21 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 01, 2020, 01:05:01 AM
Quote from: Beltway on December 31, 2019, 08:50:45 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on December 31, 2019, 06:54:57 PM
It's almost like the theory certain people believe that left exits are prohibited on the interstate highways... it's perceived as substandard, but there's no rule against it.
They are prohibited by sound engineering judgement.
But it is not against interstate standards.
It meets basic interstate standards, so that's all it matters.
What is the use of having sound and safe engineering standards and they violating them for political reasons?
i'm pretty sure left exits aren't preferred.
Quote from: cl94 on December 31, 2019, 09:13:41 PM
Re: cloverleaf interchanges, I thought the rule was that they were allowed in new construction on Interstates, but C/D roads are required. 55/69/269 and 73/85 both meet this, while 69/Pennyrile/WK did not. KYTC probably decided to add direct ramps to better handle traffic loads instead of retrofitting the existing interchange.
I'd be curious to see new traffic counts, now that the configuration of that exit has been in place for awhile, to know how much through I-69 traffic there is now, vs. how much through traffic on the old parkways. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the through movements on the E-W WK are still more than the through movements on N-S 69. I don't know how much through N-S Pennyrile traffic existed, or how much traffic transitioned from the WK to or from the Pennyrile. I guess they would have had to have counters on each of the eight ramps in the old cloverleaf to determine that.
As for C/D lanes, they were built for I-65 when the Natcher was extended out to US 231. I don't think any configuration changes are necessary with the conversion of the Natcher to I-65.
I'm not so pleased with the new version of FL 50 and US 27 in Clermont, FL. Most of the ramps are too tight against US 27, and the intersection with Hooks Street between the north to east off-ramp screws everything up.
Cleveland's "Dead Man's Curve" where the through lanes of I-90 have rumble strips and large 35 mph caution signs because of the near 90 degree turn between the Innerbelt Freeway and the Cleveland Memorial Shoreway, with the OH 2 only portion of the Shoreway having an interchange with I-90 in an elongated and narrow trumpet.
A few examples I can think of...
- Almost every system interchange in New York City, but particularly the Bruckner Interchange (95/278/678/Hutch), 87/95, 295/495, and 95/Bronx River Parkway. Each of these is a major choke point, with the Bruckner often being considered one of the worst interchanges in the country. 95/BRP is a Breezewood with traffic between the two forced to use the Cross Bronx Expressway service roads. 87/95 and 95/BRP are the two interchanges that set the capacity of the Cross Bronx Expressway
- I-70/I-71/SR 315 in Columbus, Ohio. Left exits, single-lane ramps, major weaving because of nearby interchanges. This interchange is due for a rebuild and traffic flow will likely improve with reconstruction of the eastern 70/71 interchange.
- I-280/Garden State Parkway in East Orange, NJ. It's basically a double trumpet, but replace the trumpets with semi-directional Ts. Major weaving, overloaded single-lane ramps, and there's a ramp toll thrown in there for traffic to the southbound Parkway.
- Classic NY parkway cloverleafs, particularly Wantagh Parkway at NY 24 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7238902,-73.5384169,529m/data=!3m1!1e3) and the Taconic State Parkway at NY 82 (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6254926,-73.7750511,283m/data=!3m1!1e3). The Taconic example has stop signs for 3 of the entrance ramps.
Quote from: Buck87 on January 02, 2020, 04:39:28 PM
Cleveland's "Dead Man's Curve" where the through lanes of I-90 have rumble strips and large 35 mph caution signs because of the near 90 degree turn between the Innerbelt Freeway and the Cleveland Memorial Shoreway, with the OH 2 only portion of the Shoreway having an interchange with I-90 in an elongated and narrow trumpet.
Dead Man's Curve is one of the worst interchanges I have ever driven through. Nothing like 90 having to slow to 35 for that curve (which you can't take much faster) while you can go as fast as you want on the SR 2 lanes.
Quote from: Buck87 on January 02, 2020, 04:39:28 PM
Cleveland's "Dead Man's Curve" where the through lanes of I-90 have rumble strips and large 35 mph caution signs because of the near 90 degree turn between the Innerbelt Freeway and the Cleveland Memorial Shoreway, with the OH 2 only portion of the Shoreway having an interchange with I-90 in an elongated and narrow trumpet.
that looks awful! definitely substandard!
Quote from: cl94 on January 02, 2020, 06:33:07 PM
A few examples I can think of...
- Almost every system interchange in New York City, but particularly the Bruckner Interchange (95/278/678/Hutch), 87/95, 295/495, and 95/Bronx River Parkway. Each of these is a major choke point, with the Bruckner often being considered one of the worst interchanges in the country. 95/BRP is a Breezewood with traffic between the two forced to use the Cross Bronx Expressway service roads. 87/95 and 95/BRP are the two interchanges that set the capacity of the Cross Bronx Expressway
- I-70/I-71/SR 315 in Columbus, Ohio. Left exits, single-lane ramps, major weaving because of nearby interchanges. This interchange is due for a rebuild and traffic flow will likely improve with reconstruction of the eastern 70/71 interchange.
- I-280/Garden State Parkway in East Orange, NJ. It's basically a double trumpet, but replace the trumpets with semi-directional Ts. Major weaving, overloaded single-lane ramps, and there's a ramp toll thrown in there for traffic to the southbound Parkway.
- Classic NY parkway cloverleafs, particularly Wantagh Parkway at NY 24 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7238902,-73.5384169,529m/data=!3m1!1e3) and the Taconic State Parkway at NY 82 (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6254926,-73.7750511,283m/data=!3m1!1e3). The Taconic example has stop signs for 3 of the entrance ramps.
Quote from: Buck87 on January 02, 2020, 04:39:28 PM
Cleveland's "Dead Man's Curve" where the through lanes of I-90 have rumble strips and large 35 mph caution signs because of the near 90 degree turn between the Innerbelt Freeway and the Cleveland Memorial Shoreway, with the OH 2 only portion of the Shoreway having an interchange with I-90 in an elongated and narrow trumpet.
Dead Man's Curve is one of the worst interchanges I have ever driven through. Nothing like 90 having to slow to 35 for that curve (which you can't take much faster) while you can go as fast as you want on the SR 2 lanes.
it seems like there's enough room for them to not fuck up that interchange (bruckner)
Quote from: Buck87 on January 02, 2020, 04:39:28 PM
Cleveland's "Dead Man's Curve" where the through lanes of I-90 have rumble strips and large 35 mph caution signs because of the near 90 degree turn between the Innerbelt Freeway and the Cleveland Memorial Shoreway, with the OH 2 only portion of the Shoreway having an interchange with I-90 in an elongated and narrow trumpet.
It's not so much the
angle of the turn, as much as it is the
radius of the turn, that's the problem.
Hampton Roads...
Most of the system interchanges are substandard for today's traffic demand.
I-64/I-464/US-17/VA-168 (Oak Grove Interchange)
I-264/I-664/I-64 (Bowers Hill Interchange)
I-264/I-464 (Downtown Interchange)
I-264/I-64
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 02, 2020, 08:19:16 PM
Hampton Roads... Most of the system interchanges are substandard for today's traffic demand.
I-64/I-464/US-17/VA-168 (Oak Grove Interchange)
Basically the same full cloverleaf with one C-D as it was built with on the Interstate legs (I-64 and I-464)
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 02, 2020, 08:19:16 PM
I-264/I-664/I-64 (Bowers Hill Interchange)
A sprawling high capacity interchange with multiple 2-lane semi-directional ramps.
But needs expansion which is in planning.
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 02, 2020, 08:19:16 PM
I-264/I-464 (Downtown Interchange)
Actually handles about the traffic that it and the tunnel and bridge were designed for. The interchange is constrained by the urban and industrial location.
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 02, 2020, 08:19:16 PM
I-264/I-64
A sprawling high capacity interchange with multiple 2-lane semi-directional ramps.
In its third expansion, the SE quadrant, the others being the NE quadrant and the direct HOV ramps.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 02, 2020, 07:50:18 PM
Quote from: Buck87 on January 02, 2020, 04:39:28 PM
Cleveland's "Dead Man's Curve" where the through lanes of I-90 have rumble strips and large 35 mph caution signs because of the near 90 degree turn between the Innerbelt Freeway and the Cleveland Memorial Shoreway, with the OH 2 only portion of the Shoreway having an interchange with I-90 in an elongated and narrow trumpet.
It's not so much the angle of the turn, as much as it is the radius of the turn, that's the problem.
Good point. The panned fix involves both a larger radius and a less sharp angle. That's currently estimated to happen in the 2025-2029 timeframe, but could get pushed back.
http://www.dot.state.oh.us/projects/ClevelandUrbanCoreProjects/Innerbelt/Pages/default.aspx
Is the I-77/I-85 interchange a windmill?
Quote from: Beltway on January 02, 2020, 10:52:35 PM
Basically the same full cloverleaf with one C-D as it was built with on the Interstate legs (I-64 and I-464)
And is beyond substandard for today's traffic, especially since the completion of the VA-168 Oak Grove Connector in 1999. The explosive and continuing growth south of the Intracoastal Waterway in Chesapeake and Moyock, NC following the completion of the VA-168 Chesapeake Expressway has certainly not helped this, and now with the completion of the US-17 Relocation Project in 2005 and the US-17 Dominion Blvd Expansion in 2017, the Grassfield area south of VA-165 Cedar Rd has been growing up and a more rapid expansion with many developments approved in the last few years around Dominion Blvd are coming / under construction, and even as far south as Elizabeth City, NC has been getting decent development / growth and more planned off of the US-17 Bypass / Halstead Blvd Ext interchange now having easy, convenient 4-lane access to Hampton Roads being only about one hour away. There's advantages of living in North Carolina vs. Virginia, such as cheaper cost of living, etc. and the demand has increased over the year as developments continue to get built.
Looking beyond the interchanges, VA-168 has become a bottleneck between I-64 and VA-165 Mt. Pleasant Rd carrying close to 80,000 AADT, and while US-17 remains adequate, traffic will only continue to grow further as development increases and more demand for that corridor increases. Right now, that corridor sits at about 30,000 AADT.
Ultimately, as growth expands north and south of the state line, VA-168 will need (quite frankly, needs it now) expansion to 8 lanes in the aforementioned segment, eventually 6 lanes to Hillcrest Pkwy, and eventually the freeway design extended to the state line, especially if the NC-168 Currituck County Bypass is ever constructed in the future. As for US-17, if growth keeps up, again both north and south of the state line, looking 20-30 years in the future, Dominion Blvd will eventually need to be expanded to 6 lanes, and the freeway design extended to the state line
(regardless of what happens with I-87. With growth, occurring now and more planned near the bypass at Elizabeth City, and more proposed along the stretch thru Camden County, looking into the future, a completed freeway connection between Elizabeth City and I-64 will be warranted. This was recognized decades ago, well before the I-87 concept, at least on the N.C. side).
IMO, it is the worse one out of all the other interchanges I've mentioned, and VDOT seems to not be paying attention to it. It takes a good 10-15 minutes or greater to travel under a mile from between the Battlefield & Greenbrier interchanges to VA-168 / US-17 South at peak hours on any day. At least two major flyovers are needed on the movements between I-64 East (towards Bowers Hill) to VA-168 / US-17 South, and VA-168 / US-17 North to I-64 East (towards Bowers Hill), along with braided ramps between the I-464 and Battlefield Blvd interchanges.
Quote from: Beltway on January 02, 2020, 10:52:35 PM
A sprawling high capacity interchange with multiple 2-lane semi-directional ramps.
But needs expansion which is in planning.
Weaving is a major issue, and the interchange is reaching capacity and can begin to backup at peak hours. The expansion is needed to keep it operationally sound.
Quote from: Beltway on January 02, 2020, 10:52:35 PM
Actually handles about the traffic that it and the tunnel and bridge were designed for. The interchange is constrained by the urban and industrial location.
It may be constrained, but there's certainly traffic congestion issues daily, and is substandard to meet today's needs. Ideally, 4 lanes of traffic in each direction is needed in the tunnel, 6 lanes of traffic in each direction over the bridge, and eliminating the left exits are all needed, but obviously, as you mentioned, there's constraints to this.
Quote from: Beltway on January 02, 2020, 10:52:35 PM
A sprawling high capacity interchange with multiple 2-lane semi-directional ramps.
In its third expansion, the SE quadrant, the others being the NE quadrant and the direct HOV ramps.
If you think this interchange is adequate, clearly you've never driven it at peak hours. Even with the ramp additions and HOV connections, there's still large congestion issues in the other quadrants besides the currently under construction quadrant.
The I-264 Corridor Study estimated it would cost $500 million or more to construct the needed improvements to this interchange alone.
A massive overhaul under the proposed Phase #3 project would hopefully address the remainder of the interchange's deficiencies and bring it to meet today's and the future's demands. An Interchange Modification Report is being prepared that will detail proposed improvements that will be released sometime this year.
Quote from: tolbs17 on January 03, 2020, 06:06:16 PM
Is the I-77/I-85 interchange a windmill?
Who are you? Don Quixote? :sombrero:
Seriously, though... 77/85 is a hybrid, but it definitely has elements of the diverging windmill. A true windmill interchange wouldn't have any loop ramps.
Quote from: kphoger on January 03, 2020, 09:31:21 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on January 03, 2020, 06:06:16 PM
Is the I-77/I-85 interchange a windmill?
Who are you? Don Quixote? :sombrero:
Seriously, though... 77/85 is a hybrid, but it definitely has elements of the diverging windmill. A true windmill interchange wouldn't have any loop ramps.
I said that because the ramps are very tight and I hate going down there. That interchange is a clusterfuck.
Quote from: tolbs17 on January 03, 2020, 09:37:30 PM
I said that because the ramps are very tight and I hate going down there. That interchange is a clusterfuck clusterfybrid.
Edited for clarity.
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 03, 2020, 06:15:02 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 02, 2020, 10:52:35 PM
Actually handles about the traffic that it and the tunnel and bridge were designed for. The interchange is constrained by the urban and industrial location.
It may be constrained, but there's certainly traffic congestion issues daily, and is substandard to meet today's needs. Ideally, 4 lanes of traffic in each direction is needed in the tunnel, 6 lanes of traffic in each direction over the bridge, and eliminating the left exits are all needed, but obviously, as you mentioned, there's constraints to this.
No, it would be impossible. That would have a massive impact on the urban area. That facility is fully built out.
A high-level I-264 bridge over both branches of the river has been discussed, but that creates major problems with it towering over the urban area, it having limited or no accessibility to local ramp connections, and how to tie it into the rest of the I-264 facility.
Part of the answer was the parallel Midtown Tunnel and MLK Extension, and the rest of the answer will be the future Uptown Crossing (what I call the I-564 extension to I-664), and the Craney Island Connector to VA-164.
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 03, 2020, 06:15:02 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 02, 2020, 10:52:35 PM
A sprawling high capacity interchange with multiple 2-lane semi-directional ramps.
In its third expansion, the SE quadrant, the others being the NE quadrant and the direct HOV ramps.
If you think this interchange is adequate, clearly you've never driven it at peak hours. Even with the ramp additions and HOV connections, there's still large congestion issues in the other quadrants besides the currently under construction quadrant.
Where did I say that it was adequate for today's traffic?
I described exactly what is there, and portions of the third phase to Witchduck Road are still under construction.
Quote from: Beltway on January 03, 2020, 10:22:59 PM
No, it would be impossible. That would have a massive impact on the urban area. That facility is fully built out.
Agreed, and hence the reason I said that scenario is merely an "ideal" one, but in reality, there's constraints to building such design.
Quote from: Beltway on January 03, 2020, 10:22:59 PM
and the rest of the answer will be the future Uptown Crossing (what I call the I-564 extension to I-664), and the Craney Island Connector to VA-164.
I agree generally, but realistically, are those ever going to get built? How much traffic is bound to truly use them if they are built?
Quote from: Beltway on January 03, 2020, 10:22:59 PM
Where did I say that it was adequate for today's traffic?
Based on your description of the interchange, the contextualization you gave makes it seem like it's an adequate interchange.
Quote from: Beltway on January 02, 2020, 10:52:35 PM
A sprawling high capacity interchange with multiple 2-lane semi-directional ramps.
and for the record, none of the semi-directional ramps are 2-lanes, they're all inadequate single-lane left exits. The only 2-lane ramps that exist on the corridor are I-264 WB to I-64 WB, I-64 EB to I-264 WB, and the recently completed I-64 WB to I-264 EB ramps, and those are all outside ramps.
Quote from: Beltway on January 03, 2020, 10:22:59 PM
portions of the third phase to Witchduck Road are still under construction.
The third phase I was referring to is the current project, not the other 90's projects.
Phase 1 is the I-64 WB to I-264 EB direct ramp, completed in October 2019.
Phase 2 is the Newtown Rd and Witchduck interchange improvements, along with the Cleveland St flyover, scheduled for completion in 2021.
Phase 3 is the proposed overhaul to the remainder of the I-64 / I-264 interchange, currently under study.
substandard ≠ inadequate
I read "sprawling high capacity interchange" to be a critique of its inclusion in a list of substandard interchanges, not a critique of the assertion that it's inadequate for the current traffic levels.
Quote from: kphoger on January 04, 2020, 04:27:47 PM
substandard ≠ inadequate
I read "sprawling high capacity interchange" to be a critique of its inclusion in a list of substandard interchanges, not a critique of the assertion that it's inadequate for the current traffic levels.
Exactly. It was a high-capacity interchange in its day, and a lot more than a simple cloverleaf, it may have even been "advanced" for its time, but today's traffic volumes make it inadequate.