Substandard Interchanges

[kphoger]

meh.

WB I-72 @ Springfield, IL – same deal, have to follow a loop ramp

NB I-44 @ Fidelity, MO – same deal, have to follow a loop ramp

SB Ave of the Saints @ Clear Lake, IA – at least it gets a c/d lane

[hbelkins]

The I-55 northbound cloverleaf in Memphis.

In the same vein is the I-74/I-80 interchange in Illinois, where you need to navigate a cloverleaf to continue on your interstate of choice (74 or 80).

I always found it odd that the I-74/I-80 interchange is OK, but Kentucky was required to rebuild the I-24/Purchase and WK/Pennyrile interchanges in order to sign I-69.

[vdeane]

The I-55 northbound cloverleaf in Memphis.

In the same vein is the I-74/I-80 interchange in Illinois, where you need to navigate a cloverleaf to continue on your interstate of choice (74 or 80).

I always found it odd that the I-74/I-80 interchange is OK, but Kentucky was required to rebuild the I-24/Purchase and WK/Pennyrile interchanges in order to sign I-69.

Or the I-69/I-55 interchange in Mississippi.  I presume I-74/I-80 is older, but I-69/I-55 can't be too different in age from those Kentucky interchanges.

[sprjus4]

The I-55 northbound cloverleaf in Memphis.

In the same vein is the I-74/I-80 interchange in Illinois, where you need to navigate a cloverleaf to continue on your interstate of choice (74 or 80).

I always found it odd that the I-74/I-80 interchange is OK, but Kentucky was required to rebuild the I-24/Purchase and WK/Pennyrile interchanges in order to sign I-69.

Or the I-69/I-55 interchange in Mississippi.  I presume I-74/I-80 is older, but I-69/I-55 can't be too different in age from those Kentucky interchanges.

Or the I-73/I-85 interchange in North Carolina. Signed through there about 2006 - 2008, and I-73 North traverses a single-lane 25 mph loop ramp.

IMO, all of these interchanges should have been rebuilt / designed to accommodate the through movement. At least by the FHWA requiring Kentucky to rebuild three interchanges to accommodate I-69, it's now properly equipped unlike the others to handle long distance traffic.

[mgk920]

For Illinois (not an exhaustive list)
* I-90 at I-39:  Particularly the low speed WB to SB ramp that dumps out onto the left side of I-39
* I-39 at US 20, western interchange:  Mainline I-39 goes through long single lane ramps
* I-94 at US 41 near the Wisconsin border:  Left side exit to SB US 41
* I-290 at Austin Avenue
* I-290 at IL 43
* I-290 at IL 171
* Palatine Road near Wolf Road:  The WB entrance could use a longer acceleration lane

I-94 (Edens Expressway) merge from the outbound Kennedy (I-90/94) Express lanes - a scary short left merge.

Mike

[froggie]

The I-55 northbound cloverleaf in Memphis.

In the same vein is the I-74/I-80 interchange in Illinois, where you need to navigate a cloverleaf to continue on your interstate of choice (74 or 80).

I always found it odd that the I-74/I-80 interchange is OK, but Kentucky was required to rebuild the I-24/Purchase and WK/Pennyrile interchanges in order to sign I-69.

74/80 was built with Interstate funds according to the design standards of the day, so it gets grandfathered in.  Pretty sure WK/Pennyrile had to be rebuilt due to the ramp & taper designs used in its original construction.  And since 69 is a much newer designation, it has to meet the more recent design standards unlike 74/80.

While 24/Purchase was also technically built with Interstate-of-the-day, FHWA likely required upgrading because of 69 being a new designation.

[ErmineNotyours]

I-75 at M-21 in Flint.  Guess which side of the interchange had a problem with ROW acquisition.  Very dangerous going southbound; the speed limit is 70 while the acceleration lane is nowhere near long enough, considering the slow speed at which vehicles are forced to enter.

https://goo.gl/maps/qVtzq7u7M1vp8qDLA

At least Flint has a movie theater now.  Speaking of Flint, one cloverleaf didn't have enough merge space to get on the freeway, so they leveled it to make a reverse jughandle for using the ramp across the street.  You get to wait and go through the intersection twice.  They've since reconfigured the interchange again but you can see where it used to be.

Wollchet Drive & SR 16, Gig Harbor: very tight turns near the end that you have to slow down for before accelerating, on BOTH onramps.  Further north are simple northbound-only T-intersections for a business access and a cemetery, so they're not going for Interstate standards anyway.

[Flint1979]

I-75 at M-21 in Flint.  Guess which side of the interchange had a problem with ROW acquisition.  Very dangerous going southbound; the speed limit is 70 while the acceleration lane is nowhere near long enough, considering the slow speed at which vehicles are forced to enter.

https://goo.gl/maps/qVtzq7u7M1vp8qDLA

At least Flint has a movie theater now.  Speaking of Flint, one cloverleaf didn't have enough merge space to get on the freeway, so they leveled it to make a reverse jughandle for using the ramp across the street.  You get to wait and go through the intersection twice.  They've since reconfigured the interchange again but you can see where it used to be.

Wollchet Drive & SR 16, Gig Harbor: very tight turns near the end that you have to slow down for before accelerating, on BOTH onramps.  Further north are simple northbound-only T-intersections for a business access and a cemetery, so they're not going for Interstate standards anyway.

When has Flint not had a movie theater?

[mgk920]

I-75 at M-21 in Flint.  Guess which side of the interchange had a problem with ROW acquisition.  Very dangerous going southbound; the speed limit is 70 while the acceleration lane is nowhere near long enough, considering the slow speed at which vehicles are forced to enter.

https://goo.gl/maps/qVtzq7u7M1vp8qDLA

At least Flint has a movie theater now.  Speaking of Flint, one cloverleaf didn't have enough merge space to get on the freeway, so they leveled it to make a reverse jughandle for using the ramp across the street.  You get to wait and go through the intersection twice.  They've since reconfigured the interchange again but you can see where it used to be.

Wollchet Drive & SR 16, Gig Harbor: very tight turns near the end that you have to slow down for before accelerating, on BOTH onramps.  Further north are simple northbound-only T-intersections for a business access and a cemetery, so they're not going for Interstate standards anyway.

When has Flint not had a movie theater?

Maybe the *City* of Flint, and not any of its suburbs?

Mike

[ErmineNotyours]

I-75 at M-21 in Flint.  Guess which side of the interchange had a problem with ROW acquisition.  Very dangerous going southbound; the speed limit is 70 while the acceleration lane is nowhere near long enough, considering the slow speed at which vehicles are forced to enter.

https://goo.gl/maps/qVtzq7u7M1vp8qDLA

At least Flint has a movie theater now.  Speaking of Flint, one cloverleaf didn't have enough merge space to get on the freeway, so they leveled it to make a reverse jughandle for using the ramp across the street.  You get to wait and go through the intersection twice.  They've since reconfigured the interchange again but you can see where it used to be.

Wollchet Drive & SR 16, Gig Harbor: very tight turns near the end that you have to slow down for before accelerating, on BOTH onramps.  Further north are simple northbound-only T-intersections for a business access and a cemetery, so they're not going for Interstate standards anyway.

When has Flint not had a movie theater?

The end of the movie Roger and Me has the quote, "This movie can not be shown in Flint.  All the movie theaters have closed."  I guess things have improved such that they can show it, so there's some improvement.

[vdeane]

The I-55 northbound cloverleaf in Memphis.

In the same vein is the I-74/I-80 interchange in Illinois, where you need to navigate a cloverleaf to continue on your interstate of choice (74 or 80).

I always found it odd that the I-74/I-80 interchange is OK, but Kentucky was required to rebuild the I-24/Purchase and WK/Pennyrile interchanges in order to sign I-69.

74/80 was built with Interstate funds according to the design standards of the day, so it gets grandfathered in.  Pretty sure WK/Pennyrile had to be rebuilt due to the ramp & taper designs used in its original construction.  And since 69 is a much newer designation, it has to meet the more recent design standards unlike 74/80.

While 24/Purchase was also technically built with Interstate-of-the-day, FHWA likely required upgrading because of 69 being a new designation.

Which begs the question... why did I-69 need to meet modern standards in Kentucky, but not in Mississippi?

[froggie]

^ Unless there's something I missed (and please point out specifics), it did meet standards in Mississippi.  By definition, the cloverleaf at 55/69/269 is not substandard....it meets all the modern design standards for an Interstate cloverleaf interchange...ramp widths, tapers, the whole nine yards.

The WK/Pennyrile interchange did not fully meet those standards...I'm not certain on 24/Purchase.  KTC simply opted to go with direct movements as part of the upgrade.

[vdeane]

Is it not true that interstates are no longer allowed to follow single-lane loop ramps?

[TheHighwayMan3561]

I don't know if they're "substandard" in the strictest sense but the interchanges I like driving through least around here are US 169's interchanges with 63rd Ave, Medicine Lake Road, and Cedar Lake Road. Short exit ramps, short on-ramps with short acceleration lanes.

[TheGrassGuy]

Is it not true that interstates are no longer allowed to follow single-lane loop ramps?

Still better than I-55 in Memphis 

[froggie]

Is it not true that interstates are no longer allowed to follow single-lane loop ramps?

Was that set as a rule to begin with?  Rationale with 55/69/269 may also be that you have 269 continuing as a mainline east of 55.

[Revive 755]

Is it not true that interstates are no longer allowed to follow single-lane loop ramps?

Was that set as a rule to begin with?  Rationale with 55/69/269 may also be that you have 269 continuing as a mainline east of 55.

I certainly recall hearing of it as justification for the elaborate ramps for the I-69/Pennyrile/Western Kentucky interchange.  After all, there is a mainline parkway continuing east where I-69 turns north in Kentucky.

If there is such a rule, it probably has something to due with the attentiveness of the various FHWA state/division offices.

NB I-44 @ Fidelity, MO – same deal, have to follow a loop ramp

I think you meant I-49.  IIRC there were proposals to have I-49 replace MO 249 and part of MO 171, which would eliminate this one.  How the interchange at the I-49/MO 171 gets done will be interesting to watch.

[sprjus4]

Is it not true that interstates are no longer allowed to follow single-lane loop ramps?

Was that set as a rule to begin with?

It's almost like the theory certain people believe that left exits are prohibited on the interstate highways... it's perceived as substandard, but there's no rule against it.

[Beltway]

It's almost like the theory certain people believe that left exits are prohibited on the interstate highways... it's perceived as substandard, but there's no rule against it.

They are prohibited by sound engineering judgement.

[cl94]

Re: cloverleaf interchanges, I thought the rule was that they were allowed in new construction on Interstates, but C/D roads are required. 55/69/269 and 73/85 both meet this, while 69/Pennyrile/WK did not. KYTC probably decided to add direct ramps to better handle traffic loads instead of retrofitting the existing interchange.

[cpzilliacus]

Interstate 895 in Baltimore, Maryland is almost entirely pre-Interstate design, and it shows in the interchanges.  Here are some of the ramps (this is not a complete list):

Southbound only Exit 3 to Inner Loop I-695 (very sharp ramp);

Northbound entrance from northbound MD-295 (sharp ramp);

Extremely sharp loop ramp from I-895 southbound to Potee Street (Potee Street is MD-2, but is not signed here);

Sharp ramp to Shell Road southbound; and

Sharp ramps from eastbound U.S. 40 and Erdman Avenue to southbound I-895.

[sprjus4]

It's almost like the theory certain people believe that left exits are prohibited on the interstate highways... it's perceived as substandard, but there's no rule against it.

They are prohibited by sound engineering judgement.

But it is not against interstate standards.

[tolbs17]

It's almost like the theory certain people believe that left exits are prohibited on the interstate highways... it's perceived as substandard, but there's no rule against it.

They are prohibited by sound engineering judgement.

But it is not against interstate standards.

It meets basic interstate standards, so that's all it matters.

[sprjus4]

It's almost like the theory certain people believe that left exits are prohibited on the interstate highways... it's perceived as substandard, but there's no rule against it.

They are prohibited by sound engineering judgement.

But it is not against interstate standards.

It meets basic interstate standards, so that's all it matters.

I'm not advocating for keeping left exits, but it's not prohibiting an interstate highway from being designated.

[tolbs17]

It's almost like the theory certain people believe that left exits are prohibited on the interstate highways... it's perceived as substandard, but there's no rule against it.

They are prohibited by sound engineering judgement.

But it is not against interstate standards.

It meets basic interstate standards, so that's all it matters.

I'm not advocating for keeping left exits, but it's not prohibiting an interstate highway from being designated.

Take a look at I-40 Business in Winston-Salem.