Electric vehicles of the future! They are really pushing hard for everybody to switch to an electric car I see.
https://www.businessinsider.com/biden-electric-car-charging-stations-national-network-plan-tesla-2022-2
When they have 300+ mile range and ubiquitous charging stations (that's what the infrastructure bill is trying to do), I'll happily switch over to an all-electric vehicle.
For now, when you can walk outside and spit and hit four gas stations, ICE cars are still the champs and will be for probably another decade.
Quote from: DenverBrian on February 11, 2022, 10:02:29 AM
When they have 300+ mile range and ubiquitous charging stations (that's what the infrastructure bill is trying to do), I'll happily switch over to an all-electric vehicle.
For now, when you can walk outside and spit and hit four gas stations, ICE cars are still the champs and will be for probably another decade.
Even once the stations are there it won't fix the problem of having to wait for the thing to charge.
The EV will only be a real car when an EV holds the Cannonball run title.
People really cling to that 5% of their driving to poo-poo EV's. I wonder if they let the 5% use case dictate their other durable goods purchases?
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 11, 2022, 04:10:46 PM
People really cling to that 5% of their driving to poo-poo EV's. I wonder if they let the 5% use case dictate their other durable goods purchases?
Not all goods are the same, and when it comes to vehicles that 5% is the one that actually matters.
I'm not going to buy a car that leaves me unable to do the type of travel that I want, even if it is not the majority, when I can readily buy a vehicle for less money that will outperform the EV in most categories.
And people often do use such considerations for buying what they need. I can't use a hard drive that is 5% smaller than the data I have to store.
Hell, I'm a roadgeek and I've already determined an EV would be viable. There are already way more chargers in the world than anyone driving an ICE car realizes.
If someone values their time at $20/hour 15 minutes of their time is $5. If charging takes 15 minutes, you only need to save $5 over the price of gasoline to overcome the opportunity cost. (And even then, most people own smartphones so they could easily use the 15 minutes of downtime to catch up on emails or whatever, so there may not even be an opportunity cost.)
Most people who own EVs charge at home so they're not even out any time.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 11, 2022, 04:33:57 PM
Hell, I'm a roadgeek and I've already determined an EV would be viable. There are already way more chargers in the world than anyone driving an ICE car realizes.
If someone values their time at $20/hour 15 minutes of their time is $5. If charging takes 15 minutes, you only need to save $5 over the price of gasoline to overcome the opportunity cost. (And even then, most people own smartphones so they could easily use the 15 minutes of downtime to catch up on emails or whatever, so there may not even be an opportunity cost.)
Most people who own EVs charge at home so they're not even out any time.
It's not a matter of monetizing the cost of the time, but more time is just more time. Given the 14 hour days I drive currently when on the road, adding all that extra charging time is intolerable.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 11, 2022, 04:33:57 PM
Hell, I'm a roadgeek and I've already determined an EV would be viable. There are already way more chargers in the world than anyone driving an ICE car realizes.
If someone values their time at $20/hour 15 minutes of their time is $5. If charging takes 15 minutes, you only need to save $5 over the price of gasoline to overcome the opportunity cost. (And even then, most people own smartphones so they could easily use the 15 minutes of downtime to catch up on emails or whatever, so there may not even be an opportunity cost.)
Most people who own EVs charge at home so they're not even out any time.
Opportunity cost does not always work that way. Sometimes I am trying to do endurance trips where sitting for 15 minutes to charge is unacceptable. I am not sitting and wasting time waiting for the stupid thing to charge. Especially considering how its not particularly good as a vehicle otherwise.
With a gas vehicle, I don't even need to consider fueling, virtually anywhere I go has gas readily available as soon as the light comes on, often without leaving sight of the road.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 11, 2022, 04:33:57 PM
Hell, I'm a roadgeek and I've already determined an EV would be viable. There are already way more chargers in the world than anyone driving an ICE car realizes.
If someone values their time at $20/hour 15 minutes of their time is $5. If charging takes 15 minutes, you only need to save $5 over the price of gasoline to overcome the opportunity cost. (And even then, most people own smartphones so they could easily use the 15 minutes of downtime to catch up on emails or whatever, so there may not even be an opportunity cost.)
Most people who own EVs charge at home so they're not even out any time.
A plug-in hybrid towing-capable with 50 miles of all-electric range is the perfect bridge vehicle for me, until the day when lightweight batteries with 600 miles of range or 5-10 minute charge capability, and the stations to serve it, become financially viable. Accounts for bad weather or pulling a load cutting down on time between charges, while serving probably 90% of my travel needs without having to sip dinosaur juice.
Larger-capacity batteries, even though they are expensive and heavy now, will improve over time. They offer real benefits over smaller batteries in faster charge time and less susceptibility of range depletion at real highway speeds, cold weather, or pulling a load.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 11, 2022, 04:10:46 PM
People really cling to that 5% of their driving to poo-poo EV's. I wonder if they let the 5% use case dictate their other durable goods purchases?
Would you buy a house which is uninhabitable for just 5% of time? That is- during the coldest week of winter and the hottest week of summer? Oh, and 3 days during that major storm.
Quote from: kalvado on February 11, 2022, 04:58:46 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 11, 2022, 04:10:46 PM
People really cling to that 5% of their driving to poo-poo EV's. I wonder if they let the 5% use case dictate their other durable goods purchases?
Would you buy a house which is uninhabitable for just 5% of time? That is- during the coldest week of winter and the hottest week of summer? Oh, and 3 days during that major storm.
This. :clap:
You guys do realize that most of the cars you see on the road never leave the metro area you see them in, right?
Think about this–I'm pretty sure absolutely nobody on this forum would think twice about driving from Oklahoma City to Dallas. It's about 200 miles, a straight shot down I-35 for three hours and thirty minutes. Yet not just one but multiple airlines make that flight, and apparently enough people buy tickets that they turn a profit on it.
The people buying those tickets are the people that electric cars appeal to. They don't care that they have to charge the vehicle on a long trip because they don't take those trips by car.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 11, 2022, 05:47:25 PM
You guys do realize that most of the cars you see on the road never leave the metro area you see them in, right?
Think about this–I think absolutely nobody on this forum would think twice about driving from Oklahoma City to Dallas. It's about 200 miles, a straight shot down I-35 for three hours and thirty minutes. Yet that same itinerary has not just one but multiple airlines making that flight, and apparently enough people buying tickets that they turn a profit on it.
Those are the people that electric cars appeal to. They don't care that they have to charge the vehicle on a long trip because they don't take those trips by car.
Airline flights are not really a good argument here. A lot of traffic from a smaller city would connect to another flight. DFW has 2 out of 3 passengers on connecting flights.
I certainly would be OK with one commute-only vehicle in a household. Actually that was the way for many years, one of 2 cars was a commute-only clunker. Now if I want to replace a clunker with EV.... OK, how much of EV can I get under $5k? well, lets up to $10k?
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 11, 2022, 05:47:25 PM
You guys do realize that most of the cars you see on the road never leave the metro area you see them in, right?
Think about this–I'm pretty sure absolutely nobody on this forum would think twice about driving from Oklahoma City to Dallas. It's about 200 miles, a straight shot down I-35 for three hours and thirty minutes. Yet not just one but multiple airlines make that flight, and apparently enough people buy tickets that they turn a profit on it.
The people buying those tickets are the people that electric cars appeal to. They don't care that they have to charge the vehicle on a long trip because they don't take those trips by car.
Eh... I'd bet most of the people buying those tickets are not terminating in Dallas. They're flying American through their hub in DFW and onward to somewhere else much farther away. A 3.5-hour drive honestly doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun if it's all mileage I've done before and it comes right after a long day of air travel.
Also, who besides American flies from OKC to Dallas? The other legacies don't have hubs there, and none of the LCCs have that route as far as I can tell. Even Southwest doesn't have OKC-DAL as an option.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 11, 2022, 05:47:25 PM
You guys do realize that most of the cars you see on the road never leave the metro area you see them in, right?
Think about this–I'm pretty sure absolutely nobody on this forum would think twice about driving from Oklahoma City to Dallas. It's about 200 miles, a straight shot down I-35 for three hours and thirty minutes. Yet not just one but multiple airlines make that flight, and apparently enough people buy tickets that they turn a profit on it.
The people buying those tickets are the people that electric cars appeal to. They don't care that they have to charge the vehicle on a long trip because they don't take those trips by car.
No, I think the people that are buying electric cars fit cleanly into one of two categories.
Wealthy people that own several cars and can have one as a "city car."
Hipsters that want to be trendy and have neither the ability nor need to travel outside of their city by car.
Us regular folk have no use for them.
What does it cost to fly a family of 5 from OKC to Dallas versus drive?
Bringing up connections is sort of missing the point, though–OKC-MCI is a longer trip I think very few people on this forum would blink at doing, but there are plenty of people who would balk at the thought of being in a car for 6 hours.
The point I'm trying to get at is that the average person's travel patterns are nowhere near what we do on this forum.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 11, 2022, 06:20:55 PM
Bringing up connections is sort of missing the point, though–OKC-MCI is a longer trip I think very few people on this forum would blink at doing, but there are plenty of people who would balk at the thought of being in a car for 6 hours.
The point I'm trying to get at is that the average person's travel patterns are nowhere near what we do on this forum.
It may certainly be true, but still many people would be upset with a car without ability to drive away for the weekend. Large park, beach, relatives in another city may be relatively infrequent events - but highly concentrated ones. Thanksgiving, xmas, sunny summer day are peak medium haul travel events which can, and do, clog roads and facilities.
Quote from: kalvado on February 11, 2022, 06:34:10 PM
It may certainly be true, but still many people would be upset with a car without ability to drive away for the weekend. Large park, beach, relatives in another city may be relatively infrequent events - but highly concentrated ones. Thanksgiving, xmas, sunny summer day are peak medium haul travel events which can, and do, clog roads and facilities.
Uber and Lyft exist.
I think I'm also approaching this from more of a western perspective, where the general public does in fact have a greater tolerance for how long they can spend in a car simply because stuff is more spaced out. People out there are more used to long drives.
Despite the existence of a direct Delta Connection flight from SLC to St George, just about the only people who take that flight live down there and the vast majority of people from up north just make the 4 hour drive. If I want to go from Salt Lake to someplace like Steamboat, the only way there is to suck up the 6 hr drive. I don't know anybody that would choose to go to Yellowstone from SLC by flying into Idaho Falls or Bozeman instead of just making the 5 hr drive up. The same concept applies even for slightly longer trips to larger places - unless it's for something like a quick weekend getaway or business trip, I find many people will choose to drive to places like Boise (5 hr drive), Las Vegas (6 hr), or even Denver (8 hr).
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 11, 2022, 05:47:25 PM
You guys do realize that most of the cars you see on the road never leave the metro area you see them in, right?
Think about this–I'm pretty sure absolutely nobody on this forum would think twice about driving from Oklahoma City to Dallas. It's about 200 miles, a straight shot down I-35 for three hours and thirty minutes. Yet not just one but multiple airlines make that flight, and apparently enough people buy tickets that they turn a profit on it.
The people buying those tickets are the people that electric cars appeal to. They don't care that they have to charge the vehicle on a long trip because they don't take those trips by car.
BTS says airline travel is about 13% of highway travel by passenger-miles, bus and rail transit is about 1% and Amtrak about a tenth of a percent. Assuming only 10% of the 5.5 trillion annual automobile passenger miles are from long-haul trips (which would probably allow that local auto trips are in the high 90%s of all auto trips). That's still a hell of a lot of long distance auto trips, on the order of 500 billion passenger miles a year. There IS a great case to be made for EV travel, but there is also a market they will need to improve performance in to serve on a comparable convenience level as today's ICE vehicles.
Quote from: 1 on February 11, 2022, 06:38:17 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 11, 2022, 06:34:10 PM
It may certainly be true, but still many people would be upset with a car without ability to drive away for the weekend. Large park, beach, relatives in another city may be relatively infrequent events - but highly concentrated ones. Thanksgiving, xmas, sunny summer day are peak medium haul travel events which can, and do, clog roads and facilities.
Uber and Lyft exist.
They are sort-of-OK locally. Quickly become prohibitive once you're out of city core, though. But I am talking about a different scenario. Can you price a trip from Speculator NY to Albany NY on either of them?
Quote from: 1 on February 11, 2022, 06:38:17 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 11, 2022, 06:34:10 PM
It may certainly be true, but still many people would be upset with a car without ability to drive away for the weekend. Large park, beach, relatives in another city may be relatively infrequent events - but highly concentrated ones. Thanksgiving, xmas, sunny summer day are peak medium haul travel events which can, and do, clog roads and facilities.
Uber and Lyft exist.
What do you think it costs you to Uber to another state? Hell even Boston to Rhode Island can't be cheap.
Quote from: Rick Powell on February 11, 2022, 06:42:23 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 11, 2022, 05:47:25 PM
You guys do realize that most of the cars you see on the road never leave the metro area you see them in, right?
Think about this–I'm pretty sure absolutely nobody on this forum would think twice about driving from Oklahoma City to Dallas. It's about 200 miles, a straight shot down I-35 for three hours and thirty minutes. Yet not just one but multiple airlines make that flight, and apparently enough people buy tickets that they turn a profit on it.
The people buying those tickets are the people that electric cars appeal to. They don't care that they have to charge the vehicle on a long trip because they don't take those trips by car.
BTS says airline travel is about 13% of highway travel by passenger-miles, bus and rail transit is about 1% and Amtrak about a tenth of a percent. Assuming only 10% of the 5.5 trillion annual automobile passenger miles are from long-haul trips (which would probably allow that local auto trips are in the high 90%s of all auto trips). That's still a hell of a lot of long distance auto trips, on the order of 500 billion passenger miles a year. There IS a great case to be made for EV travel, but there is also a market they will need to improve performance in to serve on a comparable convenience level as today's ICE vehicles.
Here is the other problem. Even if they had the range and facilities to do so, the cars themselves are glorified golf carts, not something I would want to cruise at freeway speeds in coast to coast.
Maybe they're not for you then?
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:08:49 PM
Quote from: Rick Powell on February 11, 2022, 06:42:23 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 11, 2022, 05:47:25 PM
You guys do realize that most of the cars you see on the road never leave the metro area you see them in, right?
Think about this–I'm pretty sure absolutely nobody on this forum would think twice about driving from Oklahoma City to Dallas. It's about 200 miles, a straight shot down I-35 for three hours and thirty minutes. Yet not just one but multiple airlines make that flight, and apparently enough people buy tickets that they turn a profit on it.
The people buying those tickets are the people that electric cars appeal to. They don't care that they have to charge the vehicle on a long trip because they don't take those trips by car.
BTS says airline travel is about 13% of highway travel by passenger-miles, bus and rail transit is about 1% and Amtrak about a tenth of a percent. Assuming only 10% of the 5.5 trillion annual automobile passenger miles are from long-haul trips (which would probably allow that local auto trips are in the high 90%s of all auto trips). That's still a hell of a lot of long distance auto trips, on the order of 500 billion passenger miles a year. There IS a great case to be made for EV travel, but there is also a market they will need to improve performance in to serve on a comparable convenience level as today's ICE vehicles.
Here is the other problem. Even if they had the range and facilities to do so, the cars themselves are glorified golf carts, not something I would want to cruise at freeway speeds in coast to coast.
Do you prefer glorified lawnmowers?
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:08:49 PM
Here is the other problem. Even if they had the range and facilities to do so, the cars themselves are glorified golf carts, not something I would want to cruise at freeway speeds in coast to coast.
Being that golf carts are also gas powered, I guess fuel-powered cars are also glorified golf carts.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 11, 2022, 10:33:13 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:08:49 PM
Here is the other problem. Even if they had the range and facilities to do so, the cars themselves are glorified golf carts, not something I would want to cruise at freeway speeds in coast to coast.
Being that golf carts are also gas powered, I guess fuel-powered cars are also glorified golf carts.
Some are, but some are not. Ever heard of a golf cart battery?
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:35:06 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 11, 2022, 10:33:13 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:08:49 PM
Here is the other problem. Even if they had the range and facilities to do so, the cars themselves are glorified golf carts, not something I would want to cruise at freeway speeds in coast to coast.
Being that golf carts are also gas powered, I guess fuel-powered cars are also glorified golf carts.
Some are, but some are not. Ever heard of a golf cart battery?
Yes. Do they run electric cars?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 11, 2022, 10:39:29 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:35:06 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 11, 2022, 10:33:13 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:08:49 PM
Here is the other problem. Even if they had the range and facilities to do so, the cars themselves are glorified golf carts, not something I would want to cruise at freeway speeds in coast to coast.
Being that golf carts are also gas powered, I guess fuel-powered cars are also glorified golf carts.
Some are, but some are not. Ever heard of a golf cart battery?
Yes. Do they run electric cars?
Obviously not. But that is not the point, the electric cars still feel like a cheap plastic box. Not the kind of thing I want to be driving.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:44:59 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 11, 2022, 10:39:29 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:35:06 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 11, 2022, 10:33:13 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:08:49 PM
Here is the other problem. Even if they had the range and facilities to do so, the cars themselves are glorified golf carts, not something I would want to cruise at freeway speeds in coast to coast.
Being that golf carts are also gas powered, I guess fuel-powered cars are also glorified golf carts.
Some are, but some are not. Ever heard of a golf cart battery?
Yes. Do they run electric cars?
Obviously not. But that is not the point, the electric cars still feel like a cheap plastic box. Not the kind of thing I want to be driving.
Have you driven one?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 11, 2022, 10:45:24 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:44:59 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 11, 2022, 10:39:29 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:35:06 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 11, 2022, 10:33:13 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:08:49 PM
Here is the other problem. Even if they had the range and facilities to do so, the cars themselves are glorified golf carts, not something I would want to cruise at freeway speeds in coast to coast.
Being that golf carts are also gas powered, I guess fuel-powered cars are also glorified golf carts.
Some are, but some are not. Ever heard of a golf cart battery?
Yes. Do they run electric cars?
Obviously not. But that is not the point, the electric cars still feel like a cheap plastic box. Not the kind of thing I want to be driving.
Have you driven one?
Nope and don't plan to.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 11:21:17 AM
Quote from: DenverBrian on February 11, 2022, 10:02:29 AM
When they have 300+ mile range and ubiquitous charging stations (that's what the infrastructure bill is trying to do), I'll happily switch over to an all-electric vehicle.
For now, when you can walk outside and spit and hit four gas stations, ICE cars are still the champs and will be for probably another decade.
Even once the stations are there it won't fix the problem of having to wait for the thing to charge.
The EV will only be a real car when an EV holds the Cannonball run title.
I dunno. When I fill my gas tank, it takes a few minutes...but I'm tethered to the car because I wouldn't leave it, just in the very rare case that the fuel would spill over (even though it's never happened).
When I charge my future EV, I'll feel much better about walking away from the vehicle while it charges, using the 10-20 minutes to pee, grab a Diet Coke, get a snack, etc. Or eat lunch or dinner if there's a diner nearby.
And there's no "gas station" at your house. You can't fill up an ICE car at your house, unless you're a farmer or have some really oddball arrangement. But you CAN charge up your EV at home every night if you like, especially if you have a garage.
There are going to be a lot of paradigm shifts when EVs achieve critical mass.
Quote from: DenverBrian on February 11, 2022, 10:48:18 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 11:21:17 AM
Quote from: DenverBrian on February 11, 2022, 10:02:29 AM
When they have 300+ mile range and ubiquitous charging stations (that's what the infrastructure bill is trying to do), I'll happily switch over to an all-electric vehicle.
For now, when you can walk outside and spit and hit four gas stations, ICE cars are still the champs and will be for probably another decade.
Even once the stations are there it won't fix the problem of having to wait for the thing to charge.
The EV will only be a real car when an EV holds the Cannonball run title.
I dunno. When I fill my gas tank, it takes a few minutes...but I'm tethered to the car because I wouldn't leave it, just in the very rare case that the fuel would spill over (even though it's never happened).
When I charge my future EV, I'll feel much better about walking away from the vehicle while it charges, using the 10-20 minutes to pee, grab a Diet Coke, get a snack, etc. Or eat lunch or dinner if there's a diner nearby.
And there's no "gas station" at your house. You can't fill up an ICE car at your house, unless you're a farmer or have some really oddball arrangement. But you CAN charge up your EV at home every night if you like, especially if you have a garage.
There are going to be a lot of paradigm shifts when EVs achieve critical mass.
There is a gas station 2 minutes from my house every day, I don't need one at my house because I can stop there. And my house does not have an EV charging station either.
The time it takes to fill the tank is about 2 minutes, just enough to wipe the windshield clean and throw out any garbage from the car. Far less than the 20 minutes an EV needs.
Oh, and that fuel tank will last me 400 miles, which is more than most EVs can do.
Oh, and that gas station is available virtually everywhere, I don't even need to hunt for it.
Oh, and driving an EV makes me look like a tool which my car doesn't.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:45:56 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 11, 2022, 10:45:24 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:44:59 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 11, 2022, 10:39:29 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:35:06 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 11, 2022, 10:33:13 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:08:49 PM
Here is the other problem. Even if they had the range and facilities to do so, the cars themselves are glorified golf carts, not something I would want to cruise at freeway speeds in coast to coast.
Being that golf carts are also gas powered, I guess fuel-powered cars are also glorified golf carts.
Some are, but some are not. Ever heard of a golf cart battery?
Yes. Do they run electric cars?
Obviously not. But that is not the point, the electric cars still feel like a cheap plastic box. Not the kind of thing I want to be driving.
Have you driven one?
Nope and don't plan to.
Yet you stated they feel like a cheap plastic box, even though you've never driven one. So you are arguing about something you have absolutely no clue about.
If you don't want to drive one, that's fine. But you can't say how they feel if you've never felt one, and compare it to something when you haven't driven one, if not both, of the things you're comparing.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 11, 2022, 10:53:18 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:45:56 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 11, 2022, 10:45:24 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:44:59 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 11, 2022, 10:39:29 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:35:06 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 11, 2022, 10:33:13 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:08:49 PM
Here is the other problem. Even if they had the range and facilities to do so, the cars themselves are glorified golf carts, not something I would want to cruise at freeway speeds in coast to coast.
Being that golf carts are also gas powered, I guess fuel-powered cars are also glorified golf carts.
Some are, but some are not. Ever heard of a golf cart battery?
Yes. Do they run electric cars?
Obviously not. But that is not the point, the electric cars still feel like a cheap plastic box. Not the kind of thing I want to be driving.
Have you driven one?
Nope and don't plan to.
Yet you stated they feel like a cheap plastic box, even though you've never driven one. So you are arguing about something you have absolutely no clue about.
If you don't want to drive one, that's fine. But you can't say how they feel if you've never felt one, and compare it to something when you haven't driven one, if not both, of the things you're comparing.
I know its a cheap plastic box based on its curb weight and the fact that all modern cars are. So no, I have a clue and I am judging on objective criteria.
I know that the seats are not as comfortable, there is less room, it does not have a full frame, its not RWD, and it has a pile of superfluous crap in it that I neither want nor need.
Its not necessary to drive a car to understand its quality, that can be assessed from design elements and specifications.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:52:46 PM
Oh, and driving an EV makes me look like a tool which my car doesn't.
...That's something you actually worry about?
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 11, 2022, 11:08:29 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 11, 2022, 10:52:46 PM
Oh, and driving an EV makes me look like a tool which my car doesn't.
...That's something you actually worry about?
Being slightly facetious, though I don't care for the styling of any of the EVs, that is less an EV specific issue than the current styling of vehicles generally. Every one is the same amorphous blob. If you took the badges off it would be impossible to tell who built what.
I don't get the hate for EVs. If it looks like a car, sounds like a car, and honks like a car...it probably is a car. The only difference is that you...plug it into a funny looking gas pump that dispenses electricity and not flammable juice.
A Tesla Model 3 base has enough range to get me to New York or Cleveland (280 miles). That's plenty for the regular person. It's not the fault of the EV that there's not enough charging spots, it's the fault of the gas station chains. Even then, there exist adaptors to use NEMA 14-50, common in RV parks and campgrounds. So, yes, you could take an EV into the Rockies.
Quote from: noelbotevera on February 12, 2022, 02:35:53 PM
I don't get the hate for EVs. If it looks like a car, sounds like a car, and honks like a car...it probably is a car. The only difference is that you...plug it into a funny looking gas pump that dispenses electricity and not flammable juice.
A Tesla Model 3 base has enough range to get me to New York or Cleveland (280 miles). That's plenty for the regular person. It's not the fault of the EV that there's not enough charging spots, it's the fault of the gas station chains. Even then, there exist adaptors to use NEMA 14-50, common in RV parks and campgrounds. So, yes, you could take an EV into the Rockies.
It doesn't sound like a car, evs are much quieter. Which is not a bad thing though
Quote from: noelbotevera on February 12, 2022, 02:35:53 PM
I don't get the hate for EVs. If it looks like a car, sounds like a car, and honks like a car...it probably is a car. The only difference is that you...plug it into a funny looking gas pump that dispenses electricity and not flammable juice.
A Tesla Model 3 base has enough range to get me to New York or Cleveland (280 miles). That's plenty for the regular person. It's not the fault of the EV that there's not enough charging spots, it's the fault of the gas station chains. Even then, there exist adaptors to use NEMA 14-50, common in RV parks and campgrounds. So, yes, you could take an EV into the Rockies.
Not all cars are created equal. Some are utter crap.
"Could" and "should" and "want to" are very different things. I can drive my car wherever and whenever without bothering to think about where to charge it, that is good enough for me to not want an EV on top of the other issues.
Quote from: kalvado on February 12, 2022, 02:40:25 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on February 12, 2022, 02:35:53 PM
I don't get the hate for EVs. If it looks like a car, sounds like a car, and honks like a car...it probably is a car. The only difference is that you...plug it into a funny looking gas pump that dispenses electricity and not flammable juice.
A Tesla Model 3 base has enough range to get me to New York or Cleveland (280 miles). That's plenty for the regular person. It's not the fault of the EV that there's not enough charging spots, it's the fault of the gas station chains. Even then, there exist adaptors to use NEMA 14-50, common in RV parks and campgrounds. So, yes, you could take an EV into the Rockies.
It doesn't sound like a car, evs are much quieter. Which is not a bad thing though
Outside it does not sound like a car because it has no engine, so you can't rev it, very lame.
My car is very quiet on the inside, which is what I care about, thanks to sound insulation. I prefer people outside to hear it however.
Quote from: noelbotevera on February 12, 2022, 02:35:53 PM
I don't get the hate for EVs. If it looks like a car, sounds like a car, and honks like a car...it probably is a car. The only difference is that you...plug it into a funny looking gas pump that dispenses electricity and not flammable juice.
A Tesla Model 3 base has enough range to get me to New York or Cleveland (280 miles). That's plenty for the regular person. It's not the fault of the EV that there's not enough charging spots, it's the fault of the gas station chains. Even then, there exist adaptors to use NEMA 14-50, common in RV parks and campgrounds. So, yes, you could take an EV into the Rockies.
And even then, I think the problem of "not enough chargers" is one that's way, way overstated. People who drive ICE cars don't notice the chargers because they don't have a reason to look for them. Their placements aren't as dense or obvious as gas stations. But there's plenty of places that have one or two chargers tucked into some obscure corner of some grocery store parking lot or whatever. Now are all of those chargers going to be in places where you're going to enjoy spending 15 minutes? Eh, maybe not. But that's a situation that will improve as time goes on.
Check out this site for a map of them: https://www.plugshare.com/
You can find a place to charge even in the Oklahoma panhandle, the reddest, most remote part of the state. Hell, there's one on Black Mesa of all places.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 03:36:29 PM
Outside it does not sound like a car because it has no engine, so you can't rev it, very lame.
There's plenty of practical reasons someone might not want an electric car, but "you can't create unnecessary noise with it" has got to be the most ridicule-worthy thing I've seen anyone post on this forum.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 03:45:09 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on February 12, 2022, 02:35:53 PM
I don't get the hate for EVs. If it looks like a car, sounds like a car, and honks like a car...it probably is a car. The only difference is that you...plug it into a funny looking gas pump that dispenses electricity and not flammable juice.
A Tesla Model 3 base has enough range to get me to New York or Cleveland (280 miles). That's plenty for the regular person. It's not the fault of the EV that there's not enough charging spots, it's the fault of the gas station chains. Even then, there exist adaptors to use NEMA 14-50, common in RV parks and campgrounds. So, yes, you could take an EV into the Rockies.
And even then, I think the problem of "not enough chargers" is one that's way, way overstated. People who drive ICE cars don't notice the chargers because they don't have a reason to look for them. Their placements aren't as dense or obvious as gas stations. But there's plenty of places that have one or two chargers tucked into some obscure corner of some grocery store parking lot or whatever. Now are all of those chargers going to be in places where you're going to enjoy spending 15 minutes? Eh, maybe not. But that's a situation that will improve as time goes on.
Check out this site for a map of them: https://www.plugshare.com/
You can find a place to charge even in the Oklahoma panhandle, the reddest, most remote part of the state. Hell, there's one on Black Mesa of all places.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 03:36:29 PM
Outside it does not sound like a car because it has no engine, so you can't rev it, very lame.
There's plenty of practical reasons someone might not want an electric car, but "you can't create unnecessary noise with it" has got to be the most ridicule-worthy thing I've seen anyone post on this forum.
I don't care how you try and swing it, there is simply no way charging for electric vehicles is as easy and readily available as gasoline.
There's plenty of practical reasons someone might not want an electric car, but "you can't create unnecessary noise with it" has got to be the most ridicule-worthy thing I've seen anyone post on this forum.Who is to say its "unnecessary"? That engine note of my V8 is a very nice part of owning the car, its distinctive, you know without even looking at it that its not a cheap I-4 or V-6, you know its the real deal. And of course when you are at a light and want to egg the moron next to you into racing out of the intersection like you are going to race you need that sound to convey that.
The sound of my engine is a part of the car I enjoy, and a plastic box with some batteries and washing machine motors fails utterly in that regard. :popcorn:
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 04:18:36 PM
And of course when you are at a light and want to egg the moron next to you into racing out of the intersection like you are going to race you need that sound to convey that.
This is road rage. Never do this.
Any amount of energy that's expended to produce noise is energy that's not going into the drivetrain or powering some user application like climate control, the windshield wipers, radio, etc. It is literally the sound of dollars being lost to the environment.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 04:39:58 PM
Any amount of energy that's expended to produce noise is energy that's not going into the drivetrain or powering some user application like climate control, the windshield wipers, radio, etc. It is literally the sound of dollars being lost to the environment.
Nope, I derive enjoyment from it so I don't mind in the slightest. I am not so cheap as to sweat over the 2 cents it costs to tap the gas pedal once in a while.
Quote from: 1 on February 12, 2022, 04:24:31 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 04:18:36 PM
And of course when you are at a light and want to egg the moron next to you into racing out of the intersection like you are going to race you need that sound to convey that.
This is road rage. Never do this.
False.
Definitions of road rage,
"violent anger caused by the stress and frustration involved in driving a motor vehicle in difficult conditions."
"aggressive or angry behavior exhibited by motorists."
There is nothing angry or aggressive about challenging someone to a race. If you actually did the race it might qualify as "drag racing" under some statutes, but just revving the engine so the other guy races out is not road rage at all.
People used to race all the time from lights, and frankly as long as you don't break the speed limit in doing so its not that big of a deal.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 04:39:58 PM
Any amount of energy that's expended to produce noise is energy that's not going into the drivetrain or powering some user application like climate control, the windshield wipers, radio, etc. It is literally the sound of dollars being lost to the environment.
Nope, I derive enjoyment from it so I don't mind in the slightest. I am not so cheap as to sweat over the 2 cents it costs to tap the gas pedal once in a while.
Has it occurred to you that people
that are not you may derive enjoyment from an electric vehicle, and therefore not mind their limitations in the slightest?
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 05:44:24 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 04:39:58 PM
Any amount of energy that's expended to produce noise is energy that's not going into the drivetrain or powering some user application like climate control, the windshield wipers, radio, etc. It is literally the sound of dollars being lost to the environment.
Nope, I derive enjoyment from it so I don't mind in the slightest. I am not so cheap as to sweat over the 2 cents it costs to tap the gas pedal once in a while.
Has it occurred to you that people that are not you may derive enjoyment from an electric vehicle, and therefore not mind their limitations in the slightest?
Oh I don't care if they want to drive them, in fact be my guest, makes fuel cheaper for my V8 if there are more people driving electric cars. Someone even made a bumper sticker to the effect of "proudly burning the gas saved by Prius owners" that I would like to find.
However, I also am honest about their deficiencies, and I never can quite look at people driving them without being amused.. :coffee:
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 05:57:47 PM
Someone even made a bumper sticker to the effect of "proudly burning the gas saved by Prius owners" that I would like to find.
This bumper sticker is saying that you're intentionally making the environment worse solely to get back at who you perceive to be the opposition.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 05:57:47 PM
However, I also am honest about their deficiencies
Being quieter is not a deficiency. Not looking the way
you want them to look is also not a deficiency.
Thread split, please?
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 05:57:47 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 05:44:24 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 04:39:58 PM
Any amount of energy that's expended to produce noise is energy that's not going into the drivetrain or powering some user application like climate control, the windshield wipers, radio, etc. It is literally the sound of dollars being lost to the environment.
Nope, I derive enjoyment from it so I don't mind in the slightest. I am not so cheap as to sweat over the 2 cents it costs to tap the gas pedal once in a while.
Has it occurred to you that people that are not you may derive enjoyment from an electric vehicle, and therefore not mind their limitations in the slightest?
Oh I don't care if they want to drive them, in fact be my guest, makes fuel cheaper for my V8 if there are more people driving electric cars. Someone even made a bumper sticker to the effect of "proudly burning the gas saved by Prius owners" that I would like to find.
However, I also am honest about their deficiencies, and I never can quite look at people driving them without being amused.. :coffee:
Every single thing made on planet Earth has deficiences and a result of many compromises. EVs definitely have their niches, question is if you think that is an appropriate thing for you personally.
I do have reservations about EVs, but I equally have questions to ICE technology. Unfortunately 100% wfh is not an option for me, so I have to choose one or the other (buses being either ice or ev included in dilemma) to get to work and earn a paycheck...
Quote from: kalvado on February 12, 2022, 06:15:40 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 05:57:47 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 05:44:24 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 04:39:58 PM
Any amount of energy that's expended to produce noise is energy that's not going into the drivetrain or powering some user application like climate control, the windshield wipers, radio, etc. It is literally the sound of dollars being lost to the environment.
Nope, I derive enjoyment from it so I don't mind in the slightest. I am not so cheap as to sweat over the 2 cents it costs to tap the gas pedal once in a while.
Has it occurred to you that people that are not you may derive enjoyment from an electric vehicle, and therefore not mind their limitations in the slightest?
Oh I don't care if they want to drive them, in fact be my guest, makes fuel cheaper for my V8 if there are more people driving electric cars. Someone even made a bumper sticker to the effect of "proudly burning the gas saved by Prius owners" that I would like to find.
However, I also am honest about their deficiencies, and I never can quite look at people driving them without being amused.. :coffee:
Every single thing made on planet Earth has deficiences and a result of many compromises. EVs definitely have their niches, question is if you think that is an appropriate thing for you personally.
It's more appropriate that it saves the planet from the greenhouse effect and not producing pollution.
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 12, 2022, 06:18:38 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 12, 2022, 06:15:40 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 05:57:47 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 05:44:24 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 04:39:58 PM
Any amount of energy that's expended to produce noise is energy that's not going into the drivetrain or powering some user application like climate control, the windshield wipers, radio, etc. It is literally the sound of dollars being lost to the environment.
Nope, I derive enjoyment from it so I don't mind in the slightest. I am not so cheap as to sweat over the 2 cents it costs to tap the gas pedal once in a while.
Has it occurred to you that people that are not you may derive enjoyment from an electric vehicle, and therefore not mind their limitations in the slightest?
Oh I don't care if they want to drive them, in fact be my guest, makes fuel cheaper for my V8 if there are more people driving electric cars. Someone even made a bumper sticker to the effect of "proudly burning the gas saved by Prius owners" that I would like to find.
However, I also am honest about their deficiencies, and I never can quite look at people driving them without being amused.. :coffee:
Every single thing made on planet Earth has deficiences and a result of many compromises. EVs definitely have their niches, question is if you think that is an appropriate thing for you personally.
It's more appropriate that it saves the planet from the greenhouse effect and not producing pollution.
If things were only that simple. But zis iz sajens, so no discussion permitted
Quote from: kalvado on February 12, 2022, 06:21:21 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 12, 2022, 06:18:38 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 12, 2022, 06:15:40 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 05:57:47 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 05:44:24 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 04:39:58 PM
Any amount of energy that's expended to produce noise is energy that's not going into the drivetrain or powering some user application like climate control, the windshield wipers, radio, etc. It is literally the sound of dollars being lost to the environment.
Nope, I derive enjoyment from it so I don't mind in the slightest. I am not so cheap as to sweat over the 2 cents it costs to tap the gas pedal once in a while.
Has it occurred to you that people that are not you may derive enjoyment from an electric vehicle, and therefore not mind their limitations in the slightest?
Oh I don't care if they want to drive them, in fact be my guest, makes fuel cheaper for my V8 if there are more people driving electric cars. Someone even made a bumper sticker to the effect of "proudly burning the gas saved by Prius owners" that I would like to find.
However, I also am honest about their deficiencies, and I never can quite look at people driving them without being amused.. :coffee:
Every single thing made on planet Earth has deficiences and a result of many compromises. EVs definitely have their niches, question is if you think that is an appropriate thing for you personally.
It's more appropriate that it saves the planet from the greenhouse effect and not producing pollution.
If things were only that simple.
It will be simple once we get a fuckton of EV chargers and EV cars on the planet.
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 12, 2022, 06:25:43 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 12, 2022, 06:21:21 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 12, 2022, 06:18:38 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 12, 2022, 06:15:40 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 05:57:47 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 05:44:24 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 04:39:58 PM
Any amount of energy that's expended to produce noise is energy that's not going into the drivetrain or powering some user application like climate control, the windshield wipers, radio, etc. It is literally the sound of dollars being lost to the environment.
Nope, I derive enjoyment from it so I don't mind in the slightest. I am not so cheap as to sweat over the 2 cents it costs to tap the gas pedal once in a while.
Has it occurred to you that people that are not you may derive enjoyment from an electric vehicle, and therefore not mind their limitations in the slightest?
Oh I don't care if they want to drive them, in fact be my guest, makes fuel cheaper for my V8 if there are more people driving electric cars. Someone even made a bumper sticker to the effect of "proudly burning the gas saved by Prius owners" that I would like to find.
However, I also am honest about their deficiencies, and I never can quite look at people driving them without being amused.. :coffee:
Every single thing made on planet Earth has deficiences and a result of many compromises. EVs definitely have their niches, question is if you think that is an appropriate thing for you personally.
It's more appropriate that it saves the planet from the greenhouse effect and not producing pollution.
If things were only that simple.
It will be simple once we get a fuckton of EV chargers and EV cars on the planet.
I like you optimism. Unfortunately it is hard to share.
Quote from: noelbotevera on February 12, 2022, 02:35:53 PM
I don't get the hate for EVs.
It's not hate; it's just curmudgeons being curmudgeons. And we have a plethora of those in this forum. :D :D :D
These are the same people whose grandfathers sat at the coffee shop, grousing about how them dang auter-matic transmissions were going to RUIN driving forever.
Quote from: DenverBrian on February 12, 2022, 06:40:10 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on February 12, 2022, 02:35:53 PM
I don't get the hate for EVs.
It's not hate; it's just curmudgeons being curmudgeons. And we have a plethora of those in this forum. :D :D :D
These are the same people whose grandfathers sat at the coffee shop, grousing about how them dang auter-matic transmissions were going to RUIN driving forever.
That's why I still have a manual. :nod:
Quote from: kalvado on February 12, 2022, 06:38:10 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 12, 2022, 06:25:43 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 12, 2022, 06:21:21 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 12, 2022, 06:18:38 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 12, 2022, 06:15:40 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 05:57:47 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 05:44:24 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 04:39:58 PM
Any amount of energy that's expended to produce noise is energy that's not going into the drivetrain or powering some user application like climate control, the windshield wipers, radio, etc. It is literally the sound of dollars being lost to the environment.
Nope, I derive enjoyment from it so I don't mind in the slightest. I am not so cheap as to sweat over the 2 cents it costs to tap the gas pedal once in a while.
Has it occurred to you that people that are not you may derive enjoyment from an electric vehicle, and therefore not mind their limitations in the slightest?
Oh I don't care if they want to drive them, in fact be my guest, makes fuel cheaper for my V8 if there are more people driving electric cars. Someone even made a bumper sticker to the effect of "proudly burning the gas saved by Prius owners" that I would like to find.
However, I also am honest about their deficiencies, and I never can quite look at people driving them without being amused.. :coffee:
Every single thing made on planet Earth has deficiences and a result of many compromises. EVs definitely have their niches, question is if you think that is an appropriate thing for you personally.
It's more appropriate that it saves the planet from the greenhouse effect and not producing pollution.
If things were only that simple.
It will be simple once we get a fuckton of EV chargers and EV cars on the planet.
I like you optimism. Unfortunately it is hard to share.
Unless you prefer old-fashioned stuff, which is not a problem. It's like saying overhead signs that require lighting (or even the button copy ones) are what
you prefer rather than the newer retroreflective ones that do not need lighting.
My dad considered getting a Tesla Model S, but he thinks that's taking a step a little too overboard (as of right now). So he'll wait. He's considering to get an Audi Q8 though. I wonder if they have electric models of those but I feel like they are all gas.
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 12, 2022, 06:58:17 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 12, 2022, 06:38:10 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 12, 2022, 06:25:43 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 12, 2022, 06:21:21 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 12, 2022, 06:18:38 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 12, 2022, 06:15:40 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 05:57:47 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 05:44:24 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 04:39:58 PM
Any amount of energy that's expended to produce noise is energy that's not going into the drivetrain or powering some user application like climate control, the windshield wipers, radio, etc. It is literally the sound of dollars being lost to the environment.
Nope, I derive enjoyment from it so I don't mind in the slightest. I am not so cheap as to sweat over the 2 cents it costs to tap the gas pedal once in a while.
Has it occurred to you that people that are not you may derive enjoyment from an electric vehicle, and therefore not mind their limitations in the slightest?
Oh I don't care if they want to drive them, in fact be my guest, makes fuel cheaper for my V8 if there are more people driving electric cars. Someone even made a bumper sticker to the effect of "proudly burning the gas saved by Prius owners" that I would like to find.
However, I also am honest about their deficiencies, and I never can quite look at people driving them without being amused.. :coffee:
Every single thing made on planet Earth has deficiences and a result of many compromises. EVs definitely have their niches, question is if you think that is an appropriate thing for you personally.
It's more appropriate that it saves the planet from the greenhouse effect and not producing pollution.
If things were only that simple.
It will be simple once we get a fuckton of EV chargers and EV cars on the planet.
I like you optimism. Unfortunately it is hard to share.
Unless you prefer old-fashioned stuff, which is not a problem. It's like saying overhead signs that require lighting (or even the button copy ones) are what you prefer rather than the newer retroreflective ones that do not need lighting.
My dad considered getting a Tesla Model S, but he thinks that's taking a step a little too overboard (as of right now). So he'll wait. He's considering to get an Audi Q8 though. I wonder if they have electric models of those but I feel like they are all gas.
Let me put it so... I am a technical person with some kind of experience. Namely, my PhD is in physics, and I have some quarter century of research behind me. My questions are ways more involved than simple old vs new..
Quote from: kalvado on February 12, 2022, 06:21:21 PM
If things were only that simple. But zis iz sajens, so no discussion permitted
Sajens... Hm... Sajak? He could be a renewable energy resource, if we hooked a generator up to the Wheel of Fortune...
Quote from: DenverBrian on February 12, 2022, 06:40:10 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on February 12, 2022, 02:35:53 PM
I don't get the hate for EVs.
It's not hate; it's just curmudgeons being curmudgeons. And we have a plethora of those in this forum. :D :D :D
These are the same people whose grandfathers sat at the coffee shop, grousing about how them dang auter-matic transmissions were going to RUIN driving forever.
Nope. It's those of us who are saying that if we switched over today, it would be an obvious inconvenience for the type of driving we do.
Quote from: Rothman on February 12, 2022, 08:10:02 PM
Quote from: DenverBrian on February 12, 2022, 06:40:10 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on February 12, 2022, 02:35:53 PM
I don't get the hate for EVs.
It's not hate; it's just curmudgeons being curmudgeons. And we have a plethora of those in this forum. :D :D :D
These are the same people whose grandfathers sat at the coffee shop, grousing about how them dang auter-matic transmissions were going to RUIN driving forever.
Nope. It's those of us who are saying that if we switched over today, it would be an obvious inconvenience for the type of driving we do.
As much as the enviro nuts want it, it's not happening today or even in the relatively near future.
You also have to remember the average American is uninterested in a 10+ day road trip. Obviously there have to be concessions for those of us who do want to do that. The market will push us to the fringe and we won't be able to do much about it until the tech and the entities who resist EV coddling catch up.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on February 12, 2022, 08:20:53 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 12, 2022, 08:10:02 PM
Quote from: DenverBrian on February 12, 2022, 06:40:10 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on February 12, 2022, 02:35:53 PM
I don't get the hate for EVs.
It's not hate; it's just curmudgeons being curmudgeons. And we have a plethora of those in this forum. :D :D :D
These are the same people whose grandfathers sat at the coffee shop, grousing about how them dang auter-matic transmissions were going to RUIN driving forever.
Nope. It's those of us who are saying that if we switched over today, it would be an obvious inconvenience for the type of driving we do.
As much as the enviro nuts want it, it's not happening today or even in the relatively near future.
You also have to remember the average American is uninterested in a 10+ day road trip. Obviously there have to be concessions for those of us who do want to do that. The market will push us to the fringe and we won't be able to do much about it until the tech and the entities who resist EV coddling catch up.
Again with the strawman and moving goalposts.
The average American motorist periodically does that family vacation, trip to grandma's for thanksgiving, etc. that is on the road and goes further than an EV is going to make it. And that American motorist has no desire to screw around trying to string together charging stations so they can get A to B. You don't have to need 10+ hour road trips to not want to deal with this crap, especially because we have more than enough petroleum to skip it.
In my area, increasing electricity rates are rapidly becoming a barrier to the use of EVs. Power rates seem to be going up faster than gas prices. Practically everyone I know in my area, who are customers of four different power companies, has been complaining how much higher their rates are. Gas prices fluctuate. Electricity prices never go down -- and government utility regulators never have the guts to tell the power companies "no" when they ask for a rate increase.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 08:32:18 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on February 12, 2022, 08:20:53 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 12, 2022, 08:10:02 PM
Quote from: DenverBrian on February 12, 2022, 06:40:10 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on February 12, 2022, 02:35:53 PM
I don't get the hate for EVs.
It's not hate; it's just curmudgeons being curmudgeons. And we have a plethora of those in this forum. :D :D :D
These are the same people whose grandfathers sat at the coffee shop, grousing about how them dang auter-matic transmissions were going to RUIN driving forever.
Nope. It's those of us who are saying that if we switched over today, it would be an obvious inconvenience for the type of driving we do.
As much as the enviro nuts want it, it's not happening today or even in the relatively near future.
You also have to remember the average American is uninterested in a 10+ day road trip. Obviously there have to be concessions for those of us who do want to do that. The market will push us to the fringe and we won't be able to do much about it until the tech and the entities who resist EV coddling catch up.
Again with the strawman and moving goalposts.
The average American motorist periodically does that family vacation, trip to grandma's for thanksgiving, etc. that is on the road and goes further than an EV is going to make it. And that American motorist has no desire to screw around trying to string together charging stations so they can get A to B. You don't have to need 10+ hour road trips to not want to deal with this crap, especially because we have more than enough petroleum to skip it.
Read what I wrote again, because you missed the entire point out of deliberately choosing to ignore the reality of your average person's daily/weekly habits.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on February 12, 2022, 08:48:22 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 08:32:18 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on February 12, 2022, 08:20:53 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 12, 2022, 08:10:02 PM
Quote from: DenverBrian on February 12, 2022, 06:40:10 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on February 12, 2022, 02:35:53 PM
I don't get the hate for EVs.
It's not hate; it's just curmudgeons being curmudgeons. And we have a plethora of those in this forum. :D :D :D
These are the same people whose grandfathers sat at the coffee shop, grousing about how them dang auter-matic transmissions were going to RUIN driving forever.
Nope. It's those of us who are saying that if we switched over today, it would be an obvious inconvenience for the type of driving we do.
As much as the enviro nuts want it, it's not happening today or even in the relatively near future.
You also have to remember the average American is uninterested in a 10+ day road trip. Obviously there have to be concessions for those of us who do want to do that. The market will push us to the fringe and we won't be able to do much about it until the tech and the entities who resist EV coddling catch up.
Again with the strawman and moving goalposts.
The average American motorist periodically does that family vacation, trip to grandma's for thanksgiving, etc. that is on the road and goes further than an EV is going to make it. And that American motorist has no desire to screw around trying to string together charging stations so they can get A to B. You don't have to need 10+ hour road trips to not want to deal with this crap, especially because we have more than enough petroleum to skip it.
Read what I wrote again, because you missed the entire point out of deliberately choosing to ignore the reality of your average person's daily/weekly habits.
A person's daily/weekly habits are not relevant. It does not matter if you don't need to drive 500 miles every day, if you need to do it once a year you need a car that will do that. The fact that you don't need it every week is simply not relevant.
You can still get there with an electric vehicle. It's not like the situation I'm in where I can't get to New Hampshire by myself because I don't drive and public transit doesn't cross the state line. With an electric vehicle, it will take slightly longer. This is a very minor inconvenience if it only happens once per year or even once every three months.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 08:55:07 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on February 12, 2022, 08:48:22 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 08:32:18 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on February 12, 2022, 08:20:53 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 12, 2022, 08:10:02 PM
Quote from: DenverBrian on February 12, 2022, 06:40:10 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on February 12, 2022, 02:35:53 PM
I don't get the hate for EVs.
It's not hate; it's just curmudgeons being curmudgeons. And we have a plethora of those in this forum. :D :D :D
These are the same people whose grandfathers sat at the coffee shop, grousing about how them dang auter-matic transmissions were going to RUIN driving forever.
Nope. It's those of us who are saying that if we switched over today, it would be an obvious inconvenience for the type of driving we do.
As much as the enviro nuts want it, it's not happening today or even in the relatively near future.
You also have to remember the average American is uninterested in a 10+ day road trip. Obviously there have to be concessions for those of us who do want to do that. The market will push us to the fringe and we won't be able to do much about it until the tech and the entities who resist EV coddling catch up.
Again with the strawman and moving goalposts.
The average American motorist periodically does that family vacation, trip to grandma's for thanksgiving, etc. that is on the road and goes further than an EV is going to make it. And that American motorist has no desire to screw around trying to string together charging stations so they can get A to B. You don't have to need 10+ hour road trips to not want to deal with this crap, especially because we have more than enough petroleum to skip it.
Read what I wrote again, because you missed the entire point out of deliberately choosing to ignore the reality of your average person's daily/weekly habits.
A person's daily/weekly habits are not relevant. It does not matter if you don't need to drive 500 miles every day, if you need to do it once a year you need a car that will do that. The fact that you don't need it every week is simply not relevant.
...which I had already conceded in my post you called me out on.
So why do you, the exception to the norm, matter so much more than the normies?
Man, you just don't know when to give up, do you?
When I was six, my parents used to drive a two-seat Pontiac Fiero and a loud-ass white Chevy pickup truck that probably got a third of a mile per gallon. We wanted to drive all three of us to Kansas City for Thanksgiving every year, yet neither of their cars were suited for the task, and it made no financial sense to buy a third car for the special occasion that literally came up once a year. What do you suppose they did?
They rented a four-door sedan for a week.
Quote from: 1 on February 12, 2022, 08:58:14 PM
You can still get there with an electric vehicle. It's not like the situation I'm in where I can't get to New Hampshire by myself because I don't drive and public transit doesn't cross the state line. With an electric vehicle, it will take slightly longer. This is a very minor inconvenience if it only happens once per year or even once every three months.
I refuse to settle for that type of inconvenience though. If they were actually nice cars it would be one thing, but they aren't.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 09:27:02 PM
When I was six, my parents used to drive a two-seat Pontiac Fiero and a loud-ass white Chevy pickup truck that probably got a third of a mile per gallon. We wanted to drive all three of us to Kansas City for Thanksgiving every year, yet neither of their cars were suited for the task, and it made no financial sense to buy a third car for the special occasion that literally came up once a year. What do you suppose they did?
They rented a four-door sedan for a week.
Nothing is worse than a rental car, people treat them like crap, and they usually drive like it. Nor can I go out and rent a decent road trip car, most of what is available for rent are econobox specials meant for a businessman to get around town for the week, not for 4 people to cruise long highway days in luxury.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:29:58 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 09:27:02 PM
When I was six, my parents used to drive a two-seat Pontiac Fiero and a loud-ass white Chevy pickup truck that probably got a third of a mile per gallon. We wanted to drive all three of us to Kansas City for Thanksgiving every year, yet neither of their cars were suited for the task, and it made no financial sense to buy a third car for the special occasion that literally came up once a year. What do you suppose they did?
They rented a four-door sedan for a week.
Nothing is worse than a rental car, people treat them like crap, and they usually drive like it. Nor can I go out and rent a decent road trip car, most of what is available for rent are econobox specials meant for a businessman to get around town for the week, not for 4 people to cruise long highway days in luxury.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EW5Te2ZUwAEBRlU?format=jpg&name=large)
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:29:58 PM
Nothing is worse than a rental car, people treat them like crap, and they usually drive like it. Nor can I go out and rent a decent road trip car, most of what is available for rent are econobox specials meant for a businessman to get around town for the week, not for 4 people to cruise long highway days in luxury.
BS
I have rented Sedans and Crossovers for long road trips that drive just fine. Schedule your rental ahead of time from a neighborhood rental shop (Avis, Enterprise, etc) and select what style of car you want. They'll get it there
Rented a car for Chicago-Denver, Chicago-DC, and Southern IL-Brainerd MN road trips. Cars drove great and it beat the crap, especially fuel mileage-wise, over driving my 06 Toyota Tacoma or, later, my 2014 F150
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 09:32:42 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:29:58 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 09:27:02 PM
When I was six, my parents used to drive a two-seat Pontiac Fiero and a loud-ass white Chevy pickup truck that probably got a third of a mile per gallon. We wanted to drive all three of us to Kansas City for Thanksgiving every year, yet neither of their cars were suited for the task, and it made no financial sense to buy a third car for the special occasion that literally came up once a year. What do you suppose they did?
They rented a four-door sedan for a week.
Nothing is worse than a rental car, people treat them like crap, and they usually drive like it. Nor can I go out and rent a decent road trip car, most of what is available for rent are econobox specials meant for a businessman to get around town for the week, not for 4 people to cruise long highway days in luxury.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EW5Te2ZUwAEBRlU?format=jpg&name=large)
I was unaware there were people that enjoyed driving crap cars with loose steering, poor alignment, dirty interiors, cheap tires, minimal cargo space, no leg room, hard as rock seats, and a vague odor of cheap cigarettes for hundreds of miles at a time while paying by the mile for the privilege to do so. :-/
Quote from: ilpt4u on February 12, 2022, 09:34:57 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:29:58 PM
Nothing is worse than a rental car, people treat them like crap, and they usually drive like it. Nor can I go out and rent a decent road trip car, most of what is available for rent are econobox specials meant for a businessman to get around town for the week, not for 4 people to cruise long highway days in luxury.
BS
I have rented Sedans and Crossovers for long road trips that drive just fine. Schedule your rental ahead of time from a neighborhood rental shop (Avis, Enterprise, etc) and select what style of car you want. They'll get it there
Rented a car for Chicago-Denver, Chicago-DC, and Southern IL-Brainerd MN road trips. Cars drove great and it beat the crap, especially fuel mileage-wise, over driving my 06 Toyota Tacoma or, later, my 2014 F150
Crossovers are the worst possible type of vehicle for a road trip. The sedans you can rent today are all crap, that was not true 20 years ago but no matter how far out I schedule I am not getting something they don't have.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:36:04 PM
I was unaware there were people that enjoyed driving crap cars with loose steering, poor alignment, dirty interiors, cheap tires, minimal cargo space, no leg room, hard as rock seats, and a vague odor of cheap cigarettes for hundreds of miles at a time while paying by the mile for the privilege to do so. :-/
Who the fuck have you been renting cars from? Literally never experienced any of that in a rental.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 09:42:52 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:36:04 PM
I was unaware there were people that enjoyed driving crap cars with loose steering, poor alignment, dirty interiors, cheap tires, minimal cargo space, no leg room, hard as rock seats, and a vague odor of cheap cigarettes for hundreds of miles at a time while paying by the mile for the privilege to do so. :-/
Who the fuck have you been renting cars from? Literally never experienced any of that in a rental.
That's every one I have ever rented, but I do know people vary widely in how much they pay attention to vehicles. I have had friends that had me drive theirs and within minutes of starting out I had found an issue they had been blissfully unaware of.
This is better as EV cars are not directly related to road projects (highways, bridges, etc)
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 06:49:42 PM
Quote from: DenverBrian on February 12, 2022, 06:40:10 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on February 12, 2022, 02:35:53 PM
I don't get the hate for EVs.
It's not hate; it's just curmudgeons being curmudgeons. And we have a plethora of those in this forum. :D :D :D
These are the same people whose grandfathers sat at the coffee shop, grousing about how them dang auter-matic transmissions were going to RUIN driving forever.
That's why I still have a manual. :nod:
No worries. Along with perhaps 2% of the country, you can enjoy your manual.
And in a matter of years, we'll likely be down to 2% ICE cars and 98% electrics, and then you can proudly say that you still have a gas car. <shrugs>
Quote from: DenverBrian on February 12, 2022, 10:29:12 PM
No worries. Along with perhaps 2% of the country, you can enjoy your manual.
And in a matter of years, we'll likely be down to 2% ICE cars and 98% electrics, and then you can proudly say that you still have a gas car. <shrugs>
I'd probably go a couple decades before Electric trumps ICE that badly
Probably at least a decade before Electric breaks 50% on the road of Passenger Vehicles vs ICE
That said, should gas prices continue a steady rise, Electric will uptick more
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:44:42 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 09:42:52 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:36:04 PM
I was unaware there were people that enjoyed driving crap cars with loose steering, poor alignment, dirty interiors, cheap tires, minimal cargo space, no leg room, hard as rock seats, and a vague odor of cheap cigarettes for hundreds of miles at a time while paying by the mile for the privilege to do so. :-/
Who the fuck have you been renting cars from? Literally never experienced any of that in a rental.
That's every one I have ever rented, but I do know people vary widely in how much they pay attention to vehicles. I have had friends that had me drive theirs and within minutes of starting out I had found an issue they had been blissfully unaware of.
I rent at least somewhat frequently and have never had an experience like you've described. And, I go with bottom-dollar rentals...or so I thought (I get a discount through Enterprise/National).
You must be renting from some pretty sketchy places. "Minimal cargo space"? Choose a different car.
Quote from: Rothman on February 13, 2022, 12:03:48 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:44:42 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 09:42:52 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:36:04 PM
I was unaware there were people that enjoyed driving crap cars with loose steering, poor alignment, dirty interiors, cheap tires, minimal cargo space, no leg room, hard as rock seats, and a vague odor of cheap cigarettes for hundreds of miles at a time while paying by the mile for the privilege to do so. :-/
Who the fuck have you been renting cars from? Literally never experienced any of that in a rental.
That's every one I have ever rented, but I do know people vary widely in how much they pay attention to vehicles. I have had friends that had me drive theirs and within minutes of starting out I had found an issue they had been blissfully unaware of.
I rent at least somewhat frequently and have never had an experience like you've described. And, I go with bottom-dollar rentals...or so I thought (I get a discount through Enterprise/National).
You must be renting from some pretty sketchy places. "Minimal cargo space"? Choose a different car.
There is no car I can choose that is going to match my road trip car.
I am guessing you just have modest expectations, which is fine if you do, but I am not so easily satisfied.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 13, 2022, 12:05:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 13, 2022, 12:03:48 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:44:42 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 09:42:52 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:36:04 PM
I was unaware there were people that enjoyed driving crap cars with loose steering, poor alignment, dirty interiors, cheap tires, minimal cargo space, no leg room, hard as rock seats, and a vague odor of cheap cigarettes for hundreds of miles at a time while paying by the mile for the privilege to do so. :-/
Who the fuck have you been renting cars from? Literally never experienced any of that in a rental.
That's every one I have ever rented, but I do know people vary widely in how much they pay attention to vehicles. I have had friends that had me drive theirs and within minutes of starting out I had found an issue they had been blissfully unaware of.
I rent at least somewhat frequently and have never had an experience like you've described. And, I go with bottom-dollar rentals...or so I thought (I get a discount through Enterprise/National).
You must be renting from some pretty sketchy places. "Minimal cargo space"? Choose a different car.
There is no car I can choose that is going to match my road trip car.
I am guessing you just have modest expectations, which is fine if you do, but I am not so easily satisfied.
Sucks to be you, then. ;D
What's your car?
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 09:42:52 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:36:04 PM
I was unaware there were people that enjoyed driving crap cars with loose steering, poor alignment, dirty interiors, cheap tires, minimal cargo space, no leg room, hard as rock seats, and a vague odor of cheap cigarettes for hundreds of miles at a time while paying by the mile for the privilege to do so. :-/
Who the fuck have you been renting cars from? Literally never experienced any of that in a rental.
When I worked at Firestone, a local Enterprise would often have us do LOFR (lube/oil/filter/rotation, pronounced “loafer”) service on their cars, and they would
very often smell like weed and have the cheapest possible tires on them. In multiple instances, if one of the tires had a non-repairable nail, we’d try to get them to replace it with the cheapest tire we could get in the size, and they’d usually say “sorry, that’s too expensive”. Once there was a nearly new crossover that had unusually high wear on multiple tires, and they declined any work that wasn’t an oil change service. This was maybe a year old vehicle, and all four tires were bald on the inside edge.
TLDR: rental cars have a reputation for a reason.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:44:42 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 09:42:52 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:36:04 PM
I was unaware there were people that enjoyed driving crap cars with loose steering, poor alignment, dirty interiors, cheap tires, minimal cargo space, no leg room, hard as rock seats, and a vague odor of cheap cigarettes for hundreds of miles at a time while paying by the mile for the privilege to do so. :-/
Who the fuck have you been renting cars from? Literally never experienced any of that in a rental.
That's every one I have ever rented, but I do know people vary widely in how much they pay attention to vehicles. I have had friends that had me drive theirs and within minutes of starting out I had found an issue they had been blissfully unaware of.
I've never been charged by the mile for a rental. Unlimited mileage is a fairly standard thing.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:44:42 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 09:42:52 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:36:04 PM
I was unaware there were people that enjoyed driving crap cars with loose steering, poor alignment, dirty interiors, cheap tires, minimal cargo space, no leg room, hard as rock seats, and a vague odor of cheap cigarettes for hundreds of miles at a time while paying by the mile for the privilege to do so. :-/
Who the fuck have you been renting cars from? Literally never experienced any of that in a rental.
That's every one I have ever rented, but I do know people vary widely in how much they pay attention to vehicles. I have had friends that had me drive theirs and within minutes of starting out I had found an issue they had been blissfully unaware of.
Why would you do something so risky like drive a friend's rental car in which you weren't an approved driver?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2022, 12:42:13 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:44:42 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 09:42:52 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:36:04 PM
I was unaware there were people that enjoyed driving crap cars with loose steering, poor alignment, dirty interiors, cheap tires, minimal cargo space, no leg room, hard as rock seats, and a vague odor of cheap cigarettes for hundreds of miles at a time while paying by the mile for the privilege to do so. :-/
Who the fuck have you been renting cars from? Literally never experienced any of that in a rental.
That's every one I have ever rented, but I do know people vary widely in how much they pay attention to vehicles. I have had friends that had me drive theirs and within minutes of starting out I had found an issue they had been blissfully unaware of.
Why would you do something so risky like drive a friend's rental car in which you weren't an approved driver?
Not friend's rental cars, but friend's cars. The point was that some people are not car people, and will drive a disaster of a car without noticing it.
Quote from: Rothman on February 13, 2022, 12:07:45 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 13, 2022, 12:05:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 13, 2022, 12:03:48 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:44:42 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 09:42:52 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:36:04 PM
I was unaware there were people that enjoyed driving crap cars with loose steering, poor alignment, dirty interiors, cheap tires, minimal cargo space, no leg room, hard as rock seats, and a vague odor of cheap cigarettes for hundreds of miles at a time while paying by the mile for the privilege to do so. :-/
Who the fuck have you been renting cars from? Literally never experienced any of that in a rental.
That's every one I have ever rented, but I do know people vary widely in how much they pay attention to vehicles. I have had friends that had me drive theirs and within minutes of starting out I had found an issue they had been blissfully unaware of.
I rent at least somewhat frequently and have never had an experience like you've described. And, I go with bottom-dollar rentals...or so I thought (I get a discount through Enterprise/National).
You must be renting from some pretty sketchy places. "Minimal cargo space"? Choose a different car.
There is no car I can choose that is going to match my road trip car.
I am guessing you just have modest expectations, which is fine if you do, but I am not so easily satisfied.
Sucks to be you, then. ;D
What's your car?
Oh I would say it would suck more to be driving a sub optimal road trip car indefinitely.
I drive an Ultimate Road Trip Car. :awesomeface:
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 13, 2022, 01:39:44 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 13, 2022, 12:07:45 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 13, 2022, 12:05:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 13, 2022, 12:03:48 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:44:42 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 09:42:52 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:36:04 PM
I was unaware there were people that enjoyed driving crap cars with loose steering, poor alignment, dirty interiors, cheap tires, minimal cargo space, no leg room, hard as rock seats, and a vague odor of cheap cigarettes for hundreds of miles at a time while paying by the mile for the privilege to do so. :-/
Who the fuck have you been renting cars from? Literally never experienced any of that in a rental.
That's every one I have ever rented, but I do know people vary widely in how much they pay attention to vehicles. I have had friends that had me drive theirs and within minutes of starting out I had found an issue they had been blissfully unaware of.
I rent at least somewhat frequently and have never had an experience like you've described. And, I go with bottom-dollar rentals...or so I thought (I get a discount through Enterprise/National).
You must be renting from some pretty sketchy places. "Minimal cargo space"? Choose a different car.
There is no car I can choose that is going to match my road trip car.
I am guessing you just have modest expectations, which is fine if you do, but I am not so easily satisfied.
Sucks to be you, then. ;D
What's your car?
Oh I would say it would suck more to be driving a sub optimal road trip car indefinitely.
I drive an Ultimate Road Trip Car. :awesomeface:
You probably drive a 3 cylinder Mitsubishi Mirage or Ford Ecosport and come here trying to bravado your way into making us think you have something "tougher".
Quote from: SectorZ on February 13, 2022, 06:56:03 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 13, 2022, 01:39:44 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 13, 2022, 12:07:45 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 13, 2022, 12:05:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 13, 2022, 12:03:48 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:44:42 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 09:42:52 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:36:04 PM
I was unaware there were people that enjoyed driving crap cars with loose steering, poor alignment, dirty interiors, cheap tires, minimal cargo space, no leg room, hard as rock seats, and a vague odor of cheap cigarettes for hundreds of miles at a time while paying by the mile for the privilege to do so. :-/
Who the fuck have you been renting cars from? Literally never experienced any of that in a rental.
That's every one I have ever rented, but I do know people vary widely in how much they pay attention to vehicles. I have had friends that had me drive theirs and within minutes of starting out I had found an issue they had been blissfully unaware of.
I rent at least somewhat frequently and have never had an experience like you've described. And, I go with bottom-dollar rentals...or so I thought (I get a discount through Enterprise/National).
You must be renting from some pretty sketchy places. "Minimal cargo space"? Choose a different car.
There is no car I can choose that is going to match my road trip car.
I am guessing you just have modest expectations, which is fine if you do, but I am not so easily satisfied.
Sucks to be you, then. ;D
What's your car?
Oh I would say it would suck more to be driving a sub optimal road trip car indefinitely.
I drive an Ultimate Road Trip Car. :awesomeface:
You probably drive a 3 cylinder Mitsubishi Mirage or Ford Ecosport and come here trying to bravado your way into making us think you have something "tougher".
Yeah, being hedgy about what car one drives is telling.
Mods: please merge this with the discussion we had less than two months ago (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30698).
OP: do a search
Quote from: formulanone on February 13, 2022, 09:03:49 AM
OP: do a search
This was a thread split from the 2021 Infrastructure Bill thread.
Returning to the main topic and disregarding the troll (I skipped most of this thread once I saw the "special" user had entered), Car and Driver published a very good and very interesting issue last summer in which they selected an "EV of the Year" (they chose the Ford Mustang Mach-E). It also included a glossary of common terms associated with EVs, an article in which they pitted a bunch of EVs against each other in a 1000-mile loop road trip that included a long off-Interstate segment, and various other articles. Well worth reading even if you don't think you'd be interested in an EV. (The drivers' conclusion in the "EV 1000" article: For long road trips, you want to use an ICE vehicle, even if you have access to a Tesla. The Teslas in the field finished first due to that company's more-developed and more-reliable charging infrastructure.)
I think it's well worth learning about EVs and being aware of what's on the market even though I hope not to be looking for a car any time soon. Reason: I don't know what the market will be like when the time does come. My primary car is 18 years old (my other one is 34 years old and at the moment won't start) and I know it won't last forever, though I'd be very happy if it did. So I'd rather have some understanding of EVs when the time comes so that I'm educated as to all my options. On paper, I'm probably an ideal EV customer–I have no commute (I work from home) and on a regular basis, the farthest I routinely drive is to our favorite winery in Linden, Virginia. Plus my wife has two ICE vehicles, one of them a 2015 Acura that we already use for long trips, so if we did have an EV, we could continue to use that car to avoid the "time lost to charging" conundrum and the "I want to get off the Interstate but all the charging infrastructure is focused on the Interstate" problem.
But I hope not to be in that situation for several years!
Edited to fix a typo (autocorrect somehow changed "Ford" to "Fox" ).
Quote from: 1 on February 13, 2022, 09:10:43 AM
Quote from: formulanone on February 13, 2022, 09:03:49 AM
OP: do a search
This was a thread split from the 2021 Infrastructure Bill thread.
Mods: please do a better search :)
Quote from: Rothman on February 13, 2022, 12:03:48 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:44:42 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2022, 09:42:52 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:36:04 PM
I was unaware there were people that enjoyed driving crap cars with loose steering, poor alignment, dirty interiors, cheap tires, minimal cargo space, no leg room, hard as rock seats, and a vague odor of cheap cigarettes for hundreds of miles at a time while paying by the mile for the privilege to do so. :-/
Who the fuck have you been renting cars from? Literally never experienced any of that in a rental.
That's every one I have ever rented, but I do know people vary widely in how much they pay attention to vehicles. I have had friends that had me drive theirs and within minutes of starting out I had found an issue they had been blissfully unaware of.
I rent at least somewhat frequently and have never had an experience like you've described. And, I go with bottom-dollar rentals...or so I thought (I get a discount through Enterprise/National).
You must be renting from some pretty sketchy places. "Minimal cargo space"? Choose a different car.
I think it depends. I had to rent a car recently when my car was getting fixed after an accident. That car was awful.
But when I have rented from an airport while on a business trip? I have had little problem finding a decent, but admittedly pretty basic car. Not as nice as the one I drive at home, but it doesn't need to be.
Oh and I drive a pretty loaded 2020 Kia Optima at home.
These issues with range, turnaround time on refueling/recharging, cold weather performance, cost of repairs, fire department and rescue procedures, available infrastructure, etc, are exactly what doomed straight electric automotive technology in the earliest days of automobility (as in before 1900). I see no reason to waste my time and money and change my outlook on the tech simply because of the current PC and 'wokeness' issues that are pushing it.
Mike
Quote from: formulanone on February 13, 2022, 09:03:49 AM
Mods: please merge this with the discussion we had less than two months ago (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30698).
OP: do a search
But wasn't this thread directed to the infrastructure bill?
Quote from: ilpt4u on February 12, 2022, 11:01:40 PM
Quote from: DenverBrian on February 12, 2022, 10:29:12 PM
No worries. Along with perhaps 2% of the country, you can enjoy your manual.
And in a matter of years, we'll likely be down to 2% ICE cars and 98% electrics, and then you can proudly say that you still have a gas car. <shrugs>
I'd probably go a couple decades before Electric trumps ICE that badly
Probably at least a decade before Electric breaks 50% on the road of Passenger Vehicles vs ICE
That said, should gas prices continue a steady rise, Electric will uptick more
Hey, a couple of decades is still years. :D :D :D
And, as a comparison, it took perhaps 50 years for automatic transmissions to almost totally subsume manual transmissions. But it did happen. I was just commenting that the same will happen with electric cars. It's not a matter of if, just a matter of when.
For me, I have an ICE car right now that I absolutely love. But, in three years, if there is an electric SUV with proper bells and whistles, 300-mile or greater range, and a reasonable recharge network nationwide...I'll be making the switch. Heck, if for no other reason than I can eliminate oil changes from my life and take that time back for other stuff.
Quote from: DenverBrian on February 13, 2022, 11:16:24 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on February 12, 2022, 11:01:40 PM
Quote from: DenverBrian on February 12, 2022, 10:29:12 PM
No worries. Along with perhaps 2% of the country, you can enjoy your manual.
And in a matter of years, we'll likely be down to 2% ICE cars and 98% electrics, and then you can proudly say that you still have a gas car. <shrugs>
I'd probably go a couple decades before Electric trumps ICE that badly
Probably at least a decade before Electric breaks 50% on the road of Passenger Vehicles vs ICE
That said, should gas prices continue a steady rise, Electric will uptick more
Hey, a couple of decades is still years. :D :D :D
And, as a comparison, it took perhaps 50 years for automatic transmissions to almost totally subsume manual transmissions. But it did happen. I was just commenting that the same will happen with electric cars. It's not a matter of if, just a matter of when.
For me, I have an ICE car right now that I absolutely love. But, in three years, if there is an electric SUV with proper bells and whistles, 300-mile or greater range, and a reasonable recharge network nationwide...I'll be making the switch. Heck, if for no other reason than I can eliminate oil changes from my life and take that time back for other stuff.
"almost totally" is relative. Europe is still not fully convinced (as of 2017, at least). CVTs would have to change that, though - but that is nether manual nor you old car automatic one
(https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/jmnet/koreajoongangdaily/_data/photo/2017/07/06194607.jpg)
Regarding rental cars: I'm in one for 35-40 weeks a year, roughly 4-5 days a week. The cleanliness does vary a little, but they'll give me another one if I don't like it; the biggest turn offs are strong perfume / chemical / food / tobacco / cannabis odors. I stopped being puritanical about other cars' cleanliness because that's literally (wait...litter-alley?) how 3/4 of the public treats their own cars. I don't expect a fully-detailed interior. I've been in the car industry long enough and even washed others' cars in the neighborhood before I was of legal driving age.
Rarely are the rental vehicles really poorly maintained; maybe once a year there's a problem but usually it's enough to soldier on without bitching, as us tough old gentlemen that still worry about what the public's perception of our vehicles are wont to do. Not including flat/low tires, I've had two cars in 10+ years that required replacement: one with a litany of dash lights after 150 miles, and a no-start (also after 100+ miles, it wouldn't take a jumpstart the following day). Anything else I've either returned immediately or dealt with it until returning the car. Most vehicles are less than a year old and average about 15-20K miles on the odometer; that's rarely enough mileage to rack up a warranty claim for drivability on most vehicles. (It should be noted that rentals do get a bit more careless punishment and abuse, therefore aging roughly 2-3 times as quick as personal vehicles.) I get a variety of clapped-out econoboxes, SUVs of all sizes, family-haulers, mid-sized sedans, and a luxury car...maybe once or twice times a year (something that retails at around $60K.)
Almost all engines drone at consistent highway speeds; Even most V8s sound largely the same if you're not going up and down through the gears on switchbacks and ess-bends. Sure, it's easy to pass and pick your spot on the road, but that's like 1-2% of non-performance driving. I know it's a deeply unpopular opinion in the sphere of automotive enthusiasts, but it's the dirty secret nobody wants to mention.
But there's going to be those who want that tiny performance edge out of self-interest, independent of any appreciable gain to anyone other than the end user; just as people whine that nobody makes the money back on hybrids, the extra 0.2 seconds to the speed limit doesn't get you to work that much faster not get you to leisure activities sooner. The same could be said about any hobby; the extra expenditures aren't necessarily for anyone else's pleasure, so will typically seem foolish (or over-priced) to others. That's just a given...
When a 500 mile range, no decrease in acceleration, a price tag under $40,000 becomes a real EV range, I'll become more personally interested. Then it will do what I need and want for more than half my driving needs and wants. But I think that getting all that range through larger battery-pack sizes, is going to mean larger vehicles, and in turn, larger electric motors, not necessarily smaller ones. And the public really wants more stuff in every vehicle. It all adds up and drags down efficiency and range performance. For the average driver commuter, a 300 mile range is great. But consumers usually buy goods with thoughts to its extremes, whether they even need the edges of a performance envelope more than 1-2 times a year, or not...and would be put off because it can't handle a long-distance trip that they may rarely take.
Quote from: mgk920 on February 13, 2022, 10:58:26 AM
These issues with range, turnaround time on refueling/recharging, cold weather performance, cost of repairs, fire department and rescue procedures, available infrastructure, etc, are exactly what doomed straight electric automotive technology in the earliest days of automobility (as in before 1900). I see no reason to waste my time and money and change my outlook on the tech simply because of the current PC and 'wokeness' issues that are pushing it.
Mike
You think the average Tesla driver is "woke?" Bwahahahahahaha!!!!!!
I think I've said enough on my thoughts on the current state of EVs in the other threads we had on this topic. I was sad to hear the LX cars are being discontinued after the 2024 model year. It makes me glad I got one in late 2015 (a 2016 Challenger R/T Scatpack) since I thought environmental regs were going to be a potential Neo-Malaise Era jump starter. That didn't happen but it sure seems like the EV push coupled with everything becoming a CUV is driving the industry towards a state of "blandness."
I guess you might say I'm more disappointed the auto industry is regressing to 80s/90s levels of boring after the past two decades. I don't think that is driven so much by cars becoming EVs rather than consumer tastes shifting. I kind of look at CUVs as the amalgamation of the Mini-Vans and Station Wagons of old.
How many people in these groups even have any sort of non gasoline-powered vehicle? I have a hybrid. I would consider a full EV if I liked the vehicle in comparison to others.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2022, 01:38:59 PM
How many people in these groups even have any sort of non gasoline-powered vehicle? I have a hybrid. I would consider a full EV if I liked the vehicle in comparison to others.
Neither an EV or a electric work for me right now for two reasons:
- I live 38 miles from office.
- I leave the house to go driving places too often which can be 2-5 hours away on a whim.
Really the hybrid is out for me given how I drive. The EV won't be viable until the average range of lower tier cars improves to the 400-500 mile zone. Even the cheapest current EVs that are close to that range requirement are way too expensive for me to pile on 30k-50k in mileage onto annually. Ideally I'd like to wait as long as I can towards the 2030-2035 era for EV prices to become more in line with conventional ICE cars.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2022, 01:38:59 PM
How many people in these groups even have any sort of non gasoline-powered vehicle? I have a hybrid. I would consider a full EV if I liked the vehicle in comparison to others.
Don't have one, and don't really need one or want one.
The only thing I would actually want a hybrid for would be as a bolt on for a Toyota Motorhome, because in that case it would be a good way to add low end torque and improve performance without costing millage at cruising speed. I don't think anyone makes something like that but I would love to see it happen.
There was a great deal of discussion earlier on about the pros and cons of committing to a vehicle that cannot accommodate plausible use cases translating to a small but non-negligible fraction of annual usage (5% was the figure used). From the standpoint of a future transition to EVs, I think what matters is not that a vehicle should be able to accommodate 100% of all conceivable uses: instead, it is the viability of the hedging strategies that are available now or develop over time.
In most parts of the US, it is a lot easier than it is in many other countries to hang on to a second car. I use a 28-year-old car as a daily driver and a 17-year-old car as a roadtrip vehicle, and I know others who have used cars more than 20 years old as daily drivers and simply rented a car for out-of-town trips. I've personally rented cars as part of fly-drive vacations and while I've had to put up with rentals that lack features I consider essential (such as cruise control), I've never encountered one whose basic roadworthiness I felt was in doubt. It's certainly true that some regions, such as Alaska, have large independent rental sectors that specialize in old and underfeatured vehicles, but a large part of travel is accepting the rough with the smooth.
Even now, most of us have use cases we don't try to accommodate in our current vehicles. For example, I've never towed a trailer or owned a vehicle that was rigged to tow, even when it nominally had towing capability. I've never wanted to own a vehicle large enough to haul medium-sized or large furniture pieces because it would be a nuisance for everyday tasks such as parking. These tradeoffs, as well as workarounds such as renting for short periods or arranging delivery by others, will carry through in some form as we transition to EVs.
As time goes on and EVs become more common, I think the real threat to roadtrip vacations will not be charging times (I don't see 15 minutes as a problem as long as it really is only 15 minutes--standard advice when driving is to take breaks of that approximate length every 100 miles), but rather gas stations closing or converting into EV charging points with no liquid fuel availability. Using underground storage tanks to hold polluting and highly flammable liquid is an ongoing liability. Depending on how rapid charging technology evolves, the effect on component durability may also pose a barrier to roadtrips; with gas-powered cars we've all been spoiled by the fact that highway miles are easy miles in terms not just of fuel consumption but also wear and tear.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2022, 01:38:59 PM
How many people in these groups even have any sort of non gasoline-powered vehicle? I have a hybrid. I would consider a full EV if I liked the vehicle in comparison to others.
What kind of hybrid? A primarily electric-motor car with a supplemental gas engine to recharge the batteries, like the late Chevy Volt? A gas-motor car with a supplemental electric motor to provide a power boost, powered by batteries recharged only by the gas motor, like my early-generation Prius? A "plug-in hybrid" that is primarily gas-engine powered, but can be driven short distances only on battery power, recharged either from the electrical grid or by the gas engine, such as a later-generation Prius?
"Hybrid" is a confusing term, covering a lot of territory, including vehicles like the Volt that come much closer to a pure EV than my Prius.
BTW, I once used my Prius as my primary long-haul road trip vehicle, including on some sketchy unpaved roads, and multiple coast-to-coast trips. It worked fine for the first 250K miles or so. But now at over 316,000 miles, I no longer trust it for that purpose, and limit it to local travel, using a pure ICE Subaru for road trips.
Quote from: oscar on February 13, 2022, 02:35:03 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2022, 01:38:59 PM
How many people in these groups even have any sort of non gasoline-powered vehicle? I have a hybrid. I would consider a full EV if I liked the vehicle in comparison to others.
What kind of hybrid? A primarily electric-motor car with a supplemental gas engine to recharge the batteries, like the late Chevy Volt? A gas-motor car with a supplemental electric motor to provide a power boost, powered by batteries recharged only by the gas motor, like my early-generation Prius? A "plug-in hybrid" that is primarily gas-engine powered, but can be driven short distances only on battery power, recharged either from the electrical grid or by the gas engine, such as a later-generation Prius?
"Hybrid" is a confusing term, covering a lot of territory, including vehicles like the Volt that come much closer to a pure EV than my Prius.
BTW, I once used my Prius as my primary long-haul road trip vehicle, including on some sketchy unpaved roads, and multiple coast-to-coast trips. It worked fine for the first 250K miles or so. But now at over 316,000 miles, I no longer trust it for that purpose, and limit it to local travel, using a pure ICE Subaru for road trips.
Any hybrid. Anything that isn't solely gas powered.
My Honda Insight looks very much like a Honda Civic or Honda Accord. Most won't even realize it's a hybrid, even sitting inside,.
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 13, 2022, 02:25:12 PM
Even now, most of us have use cases we don't try to accommodate in our current vehicles. For example, I've never towed a trailer or owned a vehicle that was rigged to tow, even when it nominally had towing capability. I've never wanted to own a vehicle large enough to haul medium-sized or large furniture pieces because it would be a nuisance for everyday tasks such as parking. These tradeoffs, as well as workarounds such as renting for short periods or arranging delivery by others, will carry through in some form as we transition to EVs.
I'm in exactly the same boat. I don't need to haul large items very frequently, maybe three or four times a year. Having a pickup, then, would be inefficient and ill-suited to my needs the majority of the time. Thus, I make do without one, and in the rare case I do need one, I know who in my social circle owns them. Much cheaper to slip a friend a $20 for gas and the use of their time than it is to own one full-time. If that isn't possible, I can formally rent one from Uhaul or whatever.
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 13, 2022, 02:25:12 PM
As time goes on and EVs become more common, I think the real threat to roadtrip vacations will not be charging times (I don't see 15 minutes as a problem as long as it really is only 15 minutes--standard advice when driving is to take breaks of that approximate length every 100 miles) [...]
I personally find the objection to the 15 minute charging time to be rather surprising. After all, on a road trip, it's fairly common for me to break for lunch for at least 30 minutes. I could see national fast food chains like McDonalds installing chargers in their lots. Then it would be trivial to plug in, go inside, eat, come back out to a charged car, and you'd be out zero additional time.
I understand the 15 minute charge time is a detriment to use cases like Rothman's, where a drive currently long enough to incur multiple charge stops is part of his regular commute pattern, and can see how setting aside an hour plus for charging each day would be a non-starter for someone in his shoes. But this is far from most people's typical commute pattern, which is generally well-suited for an electric car, even if no provision for charging at work is given.
What I tend to believe might be more of a road trip killer is potential mileage taxes or road usage fees. Something has to replace the gas tax eventually when EVs take over for passenger ICE vehicles. What that will look like by State likely will vary wildly for awhile.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:29:58 PMNothing is worse than a rental car, people treat them like crap, and they usually drive like it. Nor can I go out and rent a decent road trip car, most of what is available for rent are econobox specials meant for a businessman to get around town for the week, not for 4 people to cruise long highway days in luxury.
I've had pretty good luck with my rentals.
My upcoming trips include rentals of an AWD SUV (going to make my first visits to Idaho and Montana at a time when there's still risk of winter driving conditions), a minivan (week-long drive to/from southern Illinois; need something comfy for my disabled wife / our car is starting to get up there in miles / discovered I like adaptive cruise control in my last rental), and a convertible (going to Hawaii in July, to get my 50th state; might as well splurge...)
Pre-pandemic, I was a frequent business traveler. Renting cars actually provided a good chance to do extended test-drives before a new car purchase. And, while I have had one or two that left something to be desired (especially if renting from more "budget" vendors), they've been the exception, rather than the rule.
FWIW, on the subject of this thread, I still have no plans to go EV until they are viable for all-day drives. While an EV would be fine for "around town" purposes, we're a one-car family (my wife doesn't drive), and I do enough longer drives that an ICE car remains to most logical choice for us.
(However, I do think I will make a point to get a few bucket-list drives out of the way while ICE vehicles remain the norm.)
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2022, 02:47:13 PM
Quote from: oscar on February 13, 2022, 02:35:03 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2022, 01:38:59 PM
How many people in these groups even have any sort of non gasoline-powered vehicle? I have a hybrid. I would consider a full EV if I liked the vehicle in comparison to others.
What kind of hybrid? A primarily electric-motor car with a supplemental gas engine to recharge the batteries, like the late Chevy Volt? A gas-motor car with a supplemental electric motor to provide a power boost, powered by batteries recharged only by the gas motor, like my early-generation Prius? A "plug-in hybrid" that is primarily gas-engine powered, but can be driven short distances only on battery power, recharged either from the electrical grid or by the gas engine, such as a later-generation Prius?
"Hybrid" is a confusing term, covering a lot of territory, including vehicles like the Volt that come much closer to a pure EV than my Prius.
BTW, I once used my Prius as my primary long-haul road trip vehicle, including on some sketchy unpaved roads, and multiple coast-to-coast trips. It worked fine for the first 250K miles or so. But now at over 316,000 miles, I no longer trust it for that purpose, and limit it to local travel, using a pure ICE Subaru for road trips.
Any hybrid. Anything that isn't solely gas powered.
My Honda Insight looks very much like a Honda Civic or Honda Accord. Most won't even realize it's a hybrid, even sitting inside,.
Is your Insight a plug-in hybrid, that can be recharged from an external power source, and can be driven at least for short distances using only the electric motor?
My Prius is not. Its hybrid battery is recharged only by the gas motor, and the hybrid motor isn't powerful enough to move the car without help from the gas motor. By your definition, it's not a true "hybrid".
I'm not trying to get into the merits of the different approaches, just to underscore that there are major differences among hybrids, some (like mine) that are more ICE than EV.
Quote from: oscar on February 13, 2022, 03:56:43 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2022, 02:47:13 PM
Quote from: oscar on February 13, 2022, 02:35:03 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2022, 01:38:59 PM
How many people in these groups even have any sort of non gasoline-powered vehicle? I have a hybrid. I would consider a full EV if I liked the vehicle in comparison to others.
What kind of hybrid? A primarily electric-motor car with a supplemental gas engine to recharge the batteries, like the late Chevy Volt? A gas-motor car with a supplemental electric motor to provide a power boost, powered by batteries recharged only by the gas motor, like my early-generation Prius? A "plug-in hybrid" that is primarily gas-engine powered, but can be driven short distances only on battery power, recharged either from the electrical grid or by the gas engine, such as a later-generation Prius?
"Hybrid" is a confusing term, covering a lot of territory, including vehicles like the Volt that come much closer to a pure EV than my Prius.
BTW, I once used my Prius as my primary long-haul road trip vehicle, including on some sketchy unpaved roads, and multiple coast-to-coast trips. It worked fine for the first 250K miles or so. But now at over 316,000 miles, I no longer trust it for that purpose, and limit it to local travel, using a pure ICE Subaru for road trips.
Any hybrid. Anything that isn't solely gas powered.
My Honda Insight looks very much like a Honda Civic or Honda Accord. Most won't even realize it's a hybrid, even sitting inside,.
Is your Insight a plug-in hybrid, that can be recharged from an external power source, and can be driven at least for short distances using only the electric motor?
My Prius is not. Its hybrid battery is recharged only by the gas motor, and the hybrid motor isn't powerful enough to move the car without help from the gas motor. By your definition, it's not a true "hybrid".
I'm not trying to get into the merits of the different approaches, just to underscore that there are major differences among hybrids, some (like mine) that are more ICE than EV.
You're going to have to argue the definition with the automakers then.
Depending on where and how it's being driven, the electric motor on the Insight runs approximately 30% of the time. This is further evidenced by the longer than normal maintenance times for oil changes and other maintenance normally done on ICE vehicles. Regenerative braking is the main source of proving power to the battery.
One thing I've said (including on this forum) in the past is that I don't think it's irrational for someone to feel that if he's going to spend $50,000+ on a car, he wants that car to be able to do everything he wants a car to do. I've softened a little bit on that stance as to my own needs because my wife's TLX is such a wonderful roadtrip car, but I still understand why someone may feel that way, and I can't say as I blame anyone for feeling that way.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 13, 2022, 05:00:13 PM
One thing I've said (including on this forum) in the past is that I don't think it's irrational for someone to feel that if he's going to spend $50,000+ on a car, he wants that car to be able to do everything he wants a car to do. I've softened a little bit on that stance as to my own needs because my wife's TLX is such a wonderful roadtrip car, but I still understand why someone may feel that way, and I can't say as I blame anyone for feeling that way.
I own a car of similar value (the Challenger I mentioned above) that is totally worthless for commuting. That said I don't commute in it and it's a fantastic road trip car. How many people have that luxury to just afford cars like that though aside from lease payments? That's the biggest issue I see, even the entry level tier EVs are still approaching soft luxury price levels.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 13, 2022, 05:03:46 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 13, 2022, 05:00:13 PM
One thing I've said (including on this forum) in the past is that I don't think it's irrational for someone to feel that if he's going to spend $50,000+ on a car, he wants that car to be able to do everything he wants a car to do. I've softened a little bit on that stance as to my own needs because my wife's TLX is such a wonderful roadtrip car, but I still understand why someone may feel that way, and I can't say as I blame anyone for feeling that way.
I own a car of similar value (the Challenger I mentioned above) that is totally worthless for commuting. That said I don't commute in it and it's a fantastic road trip car. How many people have that luxury to just afford cars like that though aside from lease payments? That's the biggest issue I see, even the entry level tier EVs are still approaching soft luxury price levels.
You'd be surprised how much money is out there.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2022, 01:38:59 PM
How many people in these groups even have any sort of non gasoline-powered vehicle? I have a hybrid. I would consider a full EV if I liked the vehicle in comparison to others.
As I've said before, I have a Saturn Vue Green Line (what's known as a "mild hybrid") and I wish I didn't. There is some sort of problem with the hybrid system that is preventing the alternator from charging the 12-volt system. This renders the vehicle undriveable because it's running only on battery power, and once the battery dies, the vehicle won't run.
I have learned that it
is possible to disconnect the hybrid system and have the vehicle run only on the gasoline engine, but I cannot for the life of me figure out how to do it. If I could figure out how it's done, I could either do it myself or get a mechanic to do it for me. I'd be happy to take the mileage hit because I like that vehicle and other than a couple of issues (a locked-up pulley and a throttle body issue) it's been a good vehicle, has about 280K miles on it and is probably good for that many more.
If only I could get the hybrid system disconnected...
Quote from: hbelkins on February 13, 2022, 07:00:49 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2022, 01:38:59 PM
How many people in these groups even have any sort of non gasoline-powered vehicle? I have a hybrid. I would consider a full EV if I liked the vehicle in comparison to others.
As I've said before, I have a Saturn Vue Green Line (what's known as a "mild hybrid") and I wish I didn't. There is some sort of problem with the hybrid system that is preventing the alternator from charging the 12-volt system. This renders the vehicle undriveable because it's running only on battery power, and once the battery dies, the vehicle won't run.
I have learned that it is possible to disconnect the hybrid system and have the vehicle run only on the gasoline engine, but I cannot for the life of me figure out how to do it. If I could figure out how it's done, I could either do it myself or get a mechanic to do it for me. I'd be happy to take the mileage hit because I like that vehicle and other than a couple of issues (a locked-up pulley and a throttle body issue) it's been a good vehicle, has about 280K miles on it and is probably good for that many more.
If only I could get the hybrid system disconnected...
I doubt most of us will benchmark the Saturn Vue Green Line, which was last made in 2008, against current hybrid and EV technology. <shrugs>
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 13, 2022, 05:41:19 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 13, 2022, 05:03:46 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 13, 2022, 05:00:13 PM
One thing I've said (including on this forum) in the past is that I don't think it's irrational for someone to feel that if he's going to spend $50,000+ on a car, he wants that car to be able to do everything he wants a car to do. I've softened a little bit on that stance as to my own needs because my wife's TLX is such a wonderful roadtrip car, but I still understand why someone may feel that way, and I can't say as I blame anyone for feeling that way.
I own a car of similar value (the Challenger I mentioned above) that is totally worthless for commuting. That said I don't commute in it and it's a fantastic road trip car. How many people have that luxury to just afford cars like that though aside from lease payments? That's the biggest issue I see, even the entry level tier EVs are still approaching soft luxury price levels.
You'd be surprised how much money is out there.
I probably wouldn't be. My family is infamous for spending money on things they don't necessarily "need" or have full practically. In fact my brother is on a wait list fo lease a Rivian RT1 truck.
Well, the Super Bowl commercials certainly made it seem like we're all going to be driving crappy EVs in no time.
Quote from: Rothman on February 13, 2022, 11:23:17 PM
Well, the Super Bowl commercials certainly made it seem like we're all going to be driving crappy EVs in no time.
And use crypto to buy them. :-D
Quote from: US 89 on February 13, 2022, 11:29:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 13, 2022, 11:23:17 PM
Well, the Super Bowl commercials certainly made it seem like we're all going to be driving crappy EVs in no time.
And use crypto to buy them. :-D
Very well-played. :D
Quote from: Rothman on February 13, 2022, 11:29:45 PM
Quote from: US 89 on February 13, 2022, 11:29:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 13, 2022, 11:23:17 PM
Well, the Super Bowl commercials certainly made it seem like we're all going to be driving crappy EVs in no time.
And use crypto to buy them. :-D
Very well-played. :D
There is nothing Lebron James and Matt Damon can say to get me on the Crypto bandwagon any time soon.
I wouldn't even think of buying a car that can only fulfill 95% of my needs. Not when I can buy a car that fulfils 100% of my needs.
Quote from: Mdcastle on February 14, 2022, 12:16:37 AM
I wouldn't even think of buying a car that can only fulfill 95% of my needs. Not when I can buy a car that fulfils 100% of my needs.
Quote from: Rothman on February 13, 2022, 11:23:17 PM
Well, the Super Bowl commercials certainly made it seem like we're all going to be driving crappy EVs in no time.
It wasn't all that long ago the commercials were heavily loaded towards internet sites, shopping, etc.
Guess what we are do now.
Times are a changing. You won't necessary be forced to buy an electronic vehicle, but there's going to be a lot more options that you see today, with features that aren't necessarily available today like 500+ mile ranges.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 13, 2022, 02:57:03 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 13, 2022, 02:25:12 PM
As time goes on and EVs become more common, I think the real threat to roadtrip vacations will not be charging times (I don't see 15 minutes as a problem as long as it really is only 15 minutes--standard advice when driving is to take breaks of that approximate length every 100 miles) [...]
I personally find the objection to the 15 minute charging time to be rather surprising. After all, on a road trip, it's fairly common for me to break for lunch for at least 30 minutes.
So, the charging time isn't 15 minutes. It's 60 minutes at minimum.
If the charging time were 15 minutes that'd be manageable, but lithium ion battery technology physically cannot accommodate this.
I don't find 15 minutes sitting around to be tolerable. The time needs to be comparable to a gas fill up.
Quote from: Duke87 on February 14, 2022, 01:16:49 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 13, 2022, 02:57:03 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 13, 2022, 02:25:12 PM
As time goes on and EVs become more common, I think the real threat to roadtrip vacations will not be charging times (I don't see 15 minutes as a problem as long as it really is only 15 minutes--standard advice when driving is to take breaks of that approximate length every 100 miles) [...]
I personally find the objection to the 15 minute charging time to be rather surprising. After all, on a road trip, it's fairly common for me to break for lunch for at least 30 minutes.
So, the charging time isn't 15 minutes. It's 60 minutes at minimum.
If the charging time were 15 minutes that'd be manageable, but lithium ion battery technology physically cannot accommodate this.
Charging speed is not constant. There is a range, somewhere between 30 and 70% full, where battery can charge pretty fast. It can mean optimal driving profile would include shorter, but more frequent stops top off battery within optimal charging range
Quote from: kalvado on February 14, 2022, 07:58:55 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on February 14, 2022, 01:16:49 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 13, 2022, 02:57:03 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 13, 2022, 02:25:12 PM
As time goes on and EVs become more common, I think the real threat to roadtrip vacations will not be charging times (I don't see 15 minutes as a problem as long as it really is only 15 minutes--standard advice when driving is to take breaks of that approximate length every 100 miles) [...]
I personally find the objection to the 15 minute charging time to be rather surprising. After all, on a road trip, it's fairly common for me to break for lunch for at least 30 minutes.
So, the charging time isn't 15 minutes. It's 60 minutes at minimum.
If the charging time were 15 minutes that'd be manageable, but lithium ion battery technology physically cannot accommodate this.
Charging speed is not constant. There is a range, somewhere between 30 and 70% full, where battery can charge pretty fast. It can mean optimal driving profile would include shorter, but more frequent stops top off battery within optimal charging range
Car and Driver said they found otherwise: EVs' nav systems tend to run conservatively–for completely understandable reasons–and therefore favor frequent but short charging. ("As we crossed middle America, the nav system recommended stopping at almost every Supercharger along our route.") In an article about a long-term test of a Tesla Model S, the magazine's writers noted, "But because the charging rate slows as the battery fills, we found it quicker to ignore Tesla's recommendations, drive the car to near empty, and plug it in for only slightly longer charges. Our routine: Drive between 120 to 200 miles at roughly 5 mph over the speed limit, charge for 20 to 45 minutes to a predicted range 50 miles greater than what was needed for the next stint, then get back on the road. ... Traveling in this manner requires some advanced planning to know which chargers to visit and which to bypass."
Regarding the range, this was in an older issue, not last summer's "EV of the Year" issue I mentioned further up the thread. Newer EVs, especially newer Tesla Model S vehicles, have considerably improved range over the one they were testing. The EV of the Year issue did mention that frequent stops to top off the battery are not the most efficient way to travel because the same principle still holds about charging speed slowing.
For those who suggest to rent an ICE vehicle when travelling: How many ICE rentals do you think there will be in 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?
I delayed replacing my current vehicle because of the current supply problems; instead I put money into it for brakes and suspension that I hope will get it through another year or two without further high-cost repairs.
I knew I didn't want to worry about an EV or a plug-in hybrid at this time; they are in even shorter supply than ICE vehicles. In a year or two, maybe. But that still depends on whether a home charging station is viable. We have a one-car garage filled up with non-car things, and a single width driveway. The space between the neighbor's fence and our back door is quite narrow so we wouldn't like to park the car there for charging.
Quote from: GaryV on February 14, 2022, 08:55:27 AM
For those who suggest to rent an ICE vehicle when travelling: How many ICE rentals do you think there will be in 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?
In a long run, rental fleet will lprobably mimic commute fleet to a large extent. I assume a lot of rentals - at least money-making ones - are business trips, mostly confined in urban, but not transit-rich areas, where EVs would be easy choice. I can even see manufacturers sponsoring EVs for those rentals so people with means can test-drive EV on someone else's dime.
Quote from: kalvado on February 14, 2022, 09:06:25 AM
Quote from: GaryV on February 14, 2022, 08:55:27 AM
For those who suggest to rent an ICE vehicle when travelling: How many ICE rentals do you think there will be in 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?
In a long run, rental fleet will lprobably mimic commute fleet to a large extent. I assume a lot of rentals - at least money-making ones - are business trips, mostly confined in urban, but not transit-rich areas, where EVs would be easy choice. I can even see manufacturers sponsoring EVs for those rentals so people with means can test-drive EV on someone else's dime.
I once rented a Prius on a football trip to Jacksonville partly for the reason you note–I saw it as an interesting opportunity to check one out. I knew I was unlikely to be in the car market any time soon, but a bunch of the guys at our tailgate were very interested in the car and were checking it over. The big thing that surprised all of us was how much space there was in the back seat, considerably more than we'd expected.
I believe Hertz placed an order for a very large number of Teslas, I assume Model 3s. I'd certainly consider trying one on a trip to visit our relatives in Fort Myers if we fly down and if there are any available since I know there's a Supercharger at Gulf Coast Town Center.
Apparently, GM remains committed to its goal of an all-EV lineup by 2025, as its Super Bowl ad of Dr. Evil taking over the company may show. Just a few years ago, that goal may have sounded a bit too ambitious, but it seems as though they're being serious about it, as the internal-combustion engine's days are numbered. For example, crosstown rival Stellantis (who owns Chrysler) is going through with ending production of its Hellcat engines, which I'm sure will upset those who were planning on getting a Challenger or Charger, and Ford may one day drop the Coyote and EcoBoost from its lineup as well, though I've heard nothing on that front.
Quote from: Henry on February 14, 2022, 10:34:40 AM
Apparently, GM remains committed to its goal of an all-EV lineup by 2025, as its Super Bowl ad of Dr. Evil taking over the company may show. Just a few years ago, that goal may have sounded a bit too ambitious, but it seems as though they're being serious about it, as the internal-combustion engine's days are numbered. For example, crosstown rival Stellantis (who owns Chrysler) is going through with ending production of its Hellcat engines, which I'm sure will upset those who were planning on getting a Challenger or Charger, and Ford may one day drop the Coyote and EcoBoost from its lineup as well, though I've heard nothing on that front.
GM can always hope for another bailout if things don't go as planned
Quote from: Henry on February 14, 2022, 10:34:40 AM
Apparently, GM remains committed to its goal of an all-EV lineup by 2025, as its Super Bowl ad of Dr. Evil taking over the company may show. Just a few years ago, that goal may have sounded a bit too ambitious, but it seems as though they're being serious about it, as the internal-combustion engine's days are numbered. For example, crosstown rival Stellantis (who owns Chrysler) is going through with ending production of its Hellcat engines, which I'm sure will upset those who were planning on getting a Challenger or Charger, and Ford may one day drop the Coyote and EcoBoost from its lineup as well, though I've heard nothing on that front.
What disappoints me is cars like the Camaro and Challenger are being cancelled. I'm not opposed to EV Powertrains, but I'm not a fan of cars like that going away or becoming CUVs like the Mach-E. Hence my existing statements above regarding I feel like CUVs are becoming the new age Mini-Van/Wagon. In the case of the Camaro GM effed up and went upmarket when the fifth generation car was less expensive. The Challenger more or less gobbled up much of the market share of the Camaro.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 14, 2022, 09:10:10 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 14, 2022, 09:06:25 AM
Quote from: GaryV on February 14, 2022, 08:55:27 AM
For those who suggest to rent an ICE vehicle when travelling: How many ICE rentals do you think there will be in 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?
In a long run, rental fleet will lprobably mimic commute fleet to a large extent. I assume a lot of rentals - at least money-making ones - are business trips, mostly confined in urban, but not transit-rich areas, where EVs would be easy choice. I can even see manufacturers sponsoring EVs for those rentals so people with means can test-drive EV on someone else's dime.
I once rented a Prius on a football trip to Jacksonville partly for the reason you note–I saw it as an interesting opportunity to check one out. I knew I was unlikely to be in the car market any time soon, but a bunch of the guys at our tailgate were very interested in the car and were checking it over. The big thing that surprised all of us was how much space there was in the back seat, considerably more than we'd expected.
I believe Hertz placed an order for a very large number of Teslas, I assume Model 3s. I'd certainly consider trying one on a trip to visit our relatives in Fort Myers if we fly down and if there are any available since I know there's a Supercharger at Gulf Coast Town Center.
If you think a Prius has any real back seat room you have never had real back seat room.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 14, 2022, 08:36:26 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 14, 2022, 07:58:55 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on February 14, 2022, 01:16:49 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 13, 2022, 02:57:03 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 13, 2022, 02:25:12 PM
As time goes on and EVs become more common, I think the real threat to roadtrip vacations will not be charging times (I don't see 15 minutes as a problem as long as it really is only 15 minutes--standard advice when driving is to take breaks of that approximate length every 100 miles) [...]
I personally find the objection to the 15 minute charging time to be rather surprising. After all, on a road trip, it's fairly common for me to break for lunch for at least 30 minutes.
So, the charging time isn't 15 minutes. It's 60 minutes at minimum.
If the charging time were 15 minutes that'd be manageable, but lithium ion battery technology physically cannot accommodate this.
Charging speed is not constant. There is a range, somewhere between 30 and 70% full, where battery can charge pretty fast. It can mean optimal driving profile would include shorter, but more frequent stops top off battery within optimal charging range
Car and Driver said they found otherwise: EVs' nav systems tend to run conservatively–for completely understandable reasons–and therefore favor frequent but short charging. ("As we crossed middle America, the nav system recommended stopping at almost every Supercharger along our route.") In an article about a long-term test of a Tesla Model S, the magazine's writers noted, "But because the charging rate slows as the battery fills, we found it quicker to ignore Tesla's recommendations, drive the car to near empty, and plug it in for only slightly longer charges. Our routine: Drive between 120 to 200 miles at roughly 5 mph over the speed limit, charge for 20 to 45 minutes to a predicted range 50 miles greater than what was needed for the next stint, then get back on the road. ... Traveling in this manner requires some advanced planning to know which chargers to visit and which to bypass."
Regarding the range, this was in an older issue, not last summer's "EV of the Year" issue I mentioned further up the thread. Newer EVs, especially newer Tesla Model S vehicles, have considerably improved range over the one they were testing. The EV of the Year issue did mention that frequent stops to top off the battery are not the most efficient way to travel because the same principle still holds about charging speed slowing.
Oh wonderful!
Highway Star, pull over at the next service area for vehicle charging.
No thanks Hal, I don't really want to stop yet.
I'm sorry Highway Star, I'm afraid I can't allow you to do that, my self driving feature is pulling us over nowYeah, nothing like a car that tells you to pull over every 20 miles like you have an incontinent dog in the back seat. What a way to travel!
Quote from: Mdcastle on February 14, 2022, 12:17:20 AM
Quote from: Mdcastle on February 14, 2022, 12:16:37 AM
I wouldn't even think of buying a car that can only fulfill 95% of my needs. Not when I can buy a car that fulfils 100% of my needs.
:clap:
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 14, 2022, 11:51:46 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 14, 2022, 09:10:10 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 14, 2022, 09:06:25 AM
Quote from: GaryV on February 14, 2022, 08:55:27 AM
For those who suggest to rent an ICE vehicle when travelling: How many ICE rentals do you think there will be in 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?
In a long run, rental fleet will lprobably mimic commute fleet to a large extent. I assume a lot of rentals - at least money-making ones - are business trips, mostly confined in urban, but not transit-rich areas, where EVs would be easy choice. I can even see manufacturers sponsoring EVs for those rentals so people with means can test-drive EV on someone else's dime.
I once rented a Prius on a football trip to Jacksonville partly for the reason you note–I saw it as an interesting opportunity to check one out. I knew I was unlikely to be in the car market any time soon, but a bunch of the guys at our tailgate were very interested in the car and were checking it over. The big thing that surprised all of us was how much space there was in the back seat, considerably more than we'd expected.
I believe Hertz placed an order for a very large number of Teslas, I assume Model 3s. I'd certainly consider trying one on a trip to visit our relatives in Fort Myers if we fly down and if there are any available since I know there's a Supercharger at Gulf Coast Town Center.
If you think a Prius has any real back seat room you have never had real back seat room.
As usual, you are using someone else's post to push your own agenda by interpreting it in order to sling insults. I said we were surprised at how much space it did have and that it had more than we expected. I expected something like my old 1982 Accord, where for an adult to ride in the backseat either the front-seat passenger had to pull the seat way up or the rear-seat passenger had to sit with his knees splayed way out to either side. The Prius wasn't anything like that. You cannot disprove the accuracy of any of that because there is nothing inaccurate about it. It refers to rear-seat space in relative terms.
(BTW, my late father purchased a Volvo S90 that my mother now owns. The Prius's rear seat isn't remotely comparable to the space in the Volvo, but no reasonable person would expect it to be.)
We took four people in our 2014 Sonic on road trips numerous times. I don't recall the back seat passengers (mostly adults) complaining about a lack of room unless there was a center bench occupant in the back. My Impreza isn't much larger than that Sonic and it gets about as much regular use. I see no need to upsize myself into a vehicle just to get a larger rear seat I don't need.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 14, 2022, 01:02:26 PM
We took four people in our 2014 Sonic on road trips numerous times. I don't recall the back seat passengers (mostly adults) complaining about a lack of room unless there was a center bench occupant in the back. My Impreza isn't much larger than that Sonic and it gets about as much regular use. I see no need to upsize myself into a vehicle just to get a larger rear seat I don't need.
Yeah. I was trying to think of the last time I rode in the rear seat of a car, aside from last summer when we took our nephew car shopping and he test-drove a car with the salesman in the front seat and us in the back. Other than that, I'm at a loss. I mentioned my father's Volvo, but I've never ridden in the rear seat–only sat in it briefly when the car was parked in their garage at home.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 14, 2022, 01:37:50 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 14, 2022, 01:02:26 PM
We took four people in our 2014 Sonic on road trips numerous times. I don't recall the back seat passengers (mostly adults) complaining about a lack of room unless there was a center bench occupant in the back. My Impreza isn't much larger than that Sonic and it gets about as much regular use. I see no need to upsize myself into a vehicle just to get a larger rear seat I don't need.
Yeah. I was trying to think of the last time I rode in the rear seat of a car, aside from last summer when we took our nephew car shopping and he test-drove a car with the salesman in the front seat and us in the back. Other than that, I'm at a loss. I mentioned my father's Volvo, but I've never ridden in the rear seat–only sat in it briefly when the car was parked in their garage at home.
We have a Forester (5 seats) and access to a Chevy Suburban (7 seats) also. I have found people generally don't really say much different if they are in the back of either of those two vehicles opposed to my Impreza. I think (this is just my opinion) that a lot of buyers have simply just convinced themselves they need bigger vehicles over what might be more practical for their lifestyles.
For what it's worth, I have fit baby seats and boosters into all of these cars just fine. I actually found my Challenger also easily accepts baby and booster seats despite it being a coupe.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 14, 2022, 12:31:03 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 14, 2022, 11:51:46 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 14, 2022, 09:10:10 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 14, 2022, 09:06:25 AM
Quote from: GaryV on February 14, 2022, 08:55:27 AM
For those who suggest to rent an ICE vehicle when travelling: How many ICE rentals do you think there will be in 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?
In a long run, rental fleet will lprobably mimic commute fleet to a large extent. I assume a lot of rentals - at least money-making ones - are business trips, mostly confined in urban, but not transit-rich areas, where EVs would be easy choice. I can even see manufacturers sponsoring EVs for those rentals so people with means can test-drive EV on someone else's dime.
I once rented a Prius on a football trip to Jacksonville partly for the reason you note–I saw it as an interesting opportunity to check one out. I knew I was unlikely to be in the car market any time soon, but a bunch of the guys at our tailgate were very interested in the car and were checking it over. The big thing that surprised all of us was how much space there was in the back seat, considerably more than we'd expected.
I believe Hertz placed an order for a very large number of Teslas, I assume Model 3s. I'd certainly consider trying one on a trip to visit our relatives in Fort Myers if we fly down and if there are any available since I know there's a Supercharger at Gulf Coast Town Center.
If you think a Prius has any real back seat room you have never had real back seat room.
As usual, you are using someone else's post to push your own agenda by interpreting it in order to sling insults. I said we were surprised at how much space it did have and that it had more than we expected. I expected something like my old 1982 Accord, where for an adult to ride in the backseat either the front-seat passenger had to pull the seat way up or the rear-seat passenger had to sit with his knees splayed way out to either side. The Prius wasn't anything like that. You cannot disprove the accuracy of any of that because there is nothing inaccurate about it. It refers to rear-seat space in relative terms.
(BTW, my late father purchased a Volvo S90 that my mother now owns. The Prius's rear seat isn't remotely comparable to the space in the Volvo, but no reasonable person would expect it to be.)
Nope, this has nothing to do with some secret "agenda", its simply that anyone calling a Prius roomy hardly knows what a proper back seat would be in the first place.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 14, 2022, 04:00:35 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 14, 2022, 12:31:03 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 14, 2022, 11:51:46 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 14, 2022, 09:10:10 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 14, 2022, 09:06:25 AM
Quote from: GaryV on February 14, 2022, 08:55:27 AM
For those who suggest to rent an ICE vehicle when travelling: How many ICE rentals do you think there will be in 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?
In a long run, rental fleet will lprobably mimic commute fleet to a large extent. I assume a lot of rentals - at least money-making ones - are business trips, mostly confined in urban, but not transit-rich areas, where EVs would be easy choice. I can even see manufacturers sponsoring EVs for those rentals so people with means can test-drive EV on someone else's dime.
I once rented a Prius on a football trip to Jacksonville partly for the reason you note–I saw it as an interesting opportunity to check one out. I knew I was unlikely to be in the car market any time soon, but a bunch of the guys at our tailgate were very interested in the car and were checking it over. The big thing that surprised all of us was how much space there was in the back seat, considerably more than we'd expected.
I believe Hertz placed an order for a very large number of Teslas, I assume Model 3s. I'd certainly consider trying one on a trip to visit our relatives in Fort Myers if we fly down and if there are any available since I know there's a Supercharger at Gulf Coast Town Center.
If you think a Prius has any real back seat room you have never had real back seat room.
As usual, you are using someone else's post to push your own agenda by interpreting it in order to sling insults. I said we were surprised at how much space it did have and that it had more than we expected. I expected something like my old 1982 Accord, where for an adult to ride in the backseat either the front-seat passenger had to pull the seat way up or the rear-seat passenger had to sit with his knees splayed way out to either side. The Prius wasn't anything like that. You cannot disprove the accuracy of any of that because there is nothing inaccurate about it. It refers to rear-seat space in relative terms.
(BTW, my late father purchased a Volvo S90 that my mother now owns. The Prius's rear seat isn't remotely comparable to the space in the Volvo, but no reasonable person would expect it to be.)
Nope, this has nothing to do with some secret "agenda", its simply that anyone calling a Prius roomy hardly knows what a proper back seat would be in the first place.
And your thoughts on the matter of back seats found in Toyota Prius models is consensus how? If anything you sound kind of conceited given that you can't fathom why anyone would hold a differing opinion to you.
Not that I think much of anything about the back seat of any Toyota Prius. All I've ever had the experience with pertaining to any Prius was driving a couple of them as rentals.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 14, 2022, 04:00:35 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 14, 2022, 12:31:03 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 14, 2022, 11:51:46 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 14, 2022, 09:10:10 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 14, 2022, 09:06:25 AM
Quote from: GaryV on February 14, 2022, 08:55:27 AM
For those who suggest to rent an ICE vehicle when travelling: How many ICE rentals do you think there will be in 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?
In a long run, rental fleet will lprobably mimic commute fleet to a large extent. I assume a lot of rentals - at least money-making ones - are business trips, mostly confined in urban, but not transit-rich areas, where EVs would be easy choice. I can even see manufacturers sponsoring EVs for those rentals so people with means can test-drive EV on someone else's dime.
I once rented a Prius on a football trip to Jacksonville partly for the reason you note–I saw it as an interesting opportunity to check one out. I knew I was unlikely to be in the car market any time soon, but a bunch of the guys at our tailgate were very interested in the car and were checking it over. The big thing that surprised all of us was how much space there was in the back seat, considerably more than we'd expected.
I believe Hertz placed an order for a very large number of Teslas, I assume Model 3s. I'd certainly consider trying one on a trip to visit our relatives in Fort Myers if we fly down and if there are any available since I know there's a Supercharger at Gulf Coast Town Center.
If you think a Prius has any real back seat room you have never had real back seat room.
As usual, you are using someone else's post to push your own agenda by interpreting it in order to sling insults. I said we were surprised at how much space it did have and that it had more than we expected. I expected something like my old 1982 Accord, where for an adult to ride in the backseat either the front-seat passenger had to pull the seat way up or the rear-seat passenger had to sit with his knees splayed way out to either side. The Prius wasn't anything like that. You cannot disprove the accuracy of any of that because there is nothing inaccurate about it. It refers to rear-seat space in relative terms.
(BTW, my late father purchased a Volvo S90 that my mother now owns. The Prius's rear seat isn't remotely comparable to the space in the Volvo, but no reasonable person would expect it to be.)
Nope, this has nothing to do with some secret "agenda", its simply that anyone calling a Prius roomy hardly knows what a proper back seat would be in the first place.
Put up or shut up, asshole: Show me where anyone in this thread called the back seat of a Prius "roomy."
Hey, maybe we could stop replying to the troll.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 14, 2022, 04:12:59 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 14, 2022, 04:00:35 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 14, 2022, 12:31:03 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 14, 2022, 11:51:46 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 14, 2022, 09:10:10 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 14, 2022, 09:06:25 AM
Quote from: GaryV on February 14, 2022, 08:55:27 AM
For those who suggest to rent an ICE vehicle when travelling: How many ICE rentals do you think there will be in 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?
In a long run, rental fleet will lprobably mimic commute fleet to a large extent. I assume a lot of rentals - at least money-making ones - are business trips, mostly confined in urban, but not transit-rich areas, where EVs would be easy choice. I can even see manufacturers sponsoring EVs for those rentals so people with means can test-drive EV on someone else's dime.
I once rented a Prius on a football trip to Jacksonville partly for the reason you note–I saw it as an interesting opportunity to check one out. I knew I was unlikely to be in the car market any time soon, but a bunch of the guys at our tailgate were very interested in the car and were checking it over. The big thing that surprised all of us was how much space there was in the back seat, considerably more than we'd expected.
I believe Hertz placed an order for a very large number of Teslas, I assume Model 3s. I'd certainly consider trying one on a trip to visit our relatives in Fort Myers if we fly down and if there are any available since I know there's a Supercharger at Gulf Coast Town Center.
If you think a Prius has any real back seat room you have never had real back seat room.
As usual, you are using someone else's post to push your own agenda by interpreting it in order to sling insults. I said we were surprised at how much space it did have and that it had more than we expected. I expected something like my old 1982 Accord, where for an adult to ride in the backseat either the front-seat passenger had to pull the seat way up or the rear-seat passenger had to sit with his knees splayed way out to either side. The Prius wasn't anything like that. You cannot disprove the accuracy of any of that because there is nothing inaccurate about it. It refers to rear-seat space in relative terms.
(BTW, my late father purchased a Volvo S90 that my mother now owns. The Prius's rear seat isn't remotely comparable to the space in the Volvo, but no reasonable person would expect it to be.)
Nope, this has nothing to do with some secret "agenda", its simply that anyone calling a Prius roomy hardly knows what a proper back seat would be in the first place.
Put up or shut up, asshole: Show me where anyone in this thread called the back seat of a Prius "roomy."
The big thing that surprised all of us was how much space there was in the back seat, considerably more than we'd expected.How should one read this if not that the Prius has a spacious back seat?
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 14, 2022, 04:27:36 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 14, 2022, 04:12:59 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 14, 2022, 04:00:35 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 14, 2022, 12:31:03 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 14, 2022, 11:51:46 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 14, 2022, 09:10:10 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 14, 2022, 09:06:25 AM
Quote from: GaryV on February 14, 2022, 08:55:27 AM
For those who suggest to rent an ICE vehicle when travelling: How many ICE rentals do you think there will be in 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?
In a long run, rental fleet will lprobably mimic commute fleet to a large extent. I assume a lot of rentals - at least money-making ones - are business trips, mostly confined in urban, but not transit-rich areas, where EVs would be easy choice. I can even see manufacturers sponsoring EVs for those rentals so people with means can test-drive EV on someone else's dime.
I once rented a Prius on a football trip to Jacksonville partly for the reason you note–I saw it as an interesting opportunity to check one out. I knew I was unlikely to be in the car market any time soon, but a bunch of the guys at our tailgate were very interested in the car and were checking it over. The big thing that surprised all of us was how much space there was in the back seat, considerably more than we'd expected.
I believe Hertz placed an order for a very large number of Teslas, I assume Model 3s. I'd certainly consider trying one on a trip to visit our relatives in Fort Myers if we fly down and if there are any available since I know there's a Supercharger at Gulf Coast Town Center.
If you think a Prius has any real back seat room you have never had real back seat room.
As usual, you are using someone else's post to push your own agenda by interpreting it in order to sling insults. I said we were surprised at how much space it did have and that it had more than we expected. I expected something like my old 1982 Accord, where for an adult to ride in the backseat either the front-seat passenger had to pull the seat way up or the rear-seat passenger had to sit with his knees splayed way out to either side. The Prius wasn't anything like that. You cannot disprove the accuracy of any of that because there is nothing inaccurate about it. It refers to rear-seat space in relative terms.
(BTW, my late father purchased a Volvo S90 that my mother now owns. The Prius's rear seat isn't remotely comparable to the space in the Volvo, but no reasonable person would expect it to be.)
Nope, this has nothing to do with some secret "agenda", its simply that anyone calling a Prius roomy hardly knows what a proper back seat would be in the first place.
Put up or shut up, asshole: Show me where anyone in this thread called the back seat of a Prius "roomy."
The big thing that surprised all of us was how much space there was in the back seat, considerably more than we'd expected.
How should one read this if not that the Prius has a spacious back seat?
You should read it in exactly the manner it was said. Quit putting words in other people's mouths. As I explained to you, but you apparently either ignored or chose not to read:
Quote
I said we were surprised at how much space it did have and that it had more than we expected. I expected something like my old 1982 Accord, where for an adult to ride in the backseat either the front-seat passenger had to pull the seat way up or the rear-seat passenger had to sit with his knees splayed way out to either side. The Prius wasn't anything like that. You cannot disprove the accuracy of any of that because there is nothing inaccurate about it. It refers to rear-seat space in relative terms.
Quote from: formulanone on February 14, 2022, 04:21:53 PM
Hey, maybe we could stop replying to the troll.
I don't like to use the "ignore" feature, but I'm thinking I probably ought to do so. This jackass makes my blood pressure rise, which is no doubt exactly what he wants to do. I suspect there's something else, too, but I can't prove it.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 14, 2022, 04:31:57 PM
Quote from: formulanone on February 14, 2022, 04:21:53 PM
Hey, maybe we could stop replying to the troll.
I don't like to use the "ignore" feature, but I'm thinking I probably ought to do so. This jackass makes my blood pressure rise, which is no doubt exactly what he wants to do. I suspect there's something else, too, but I can't prove it.
Before hitting post button with an elevated pressure..... Relax, take a deep breath, step back from computer or phone - go grab some coffee, run a bathroom break, a quick stretch - whatever. Come back, re-read what you wrote, take a big breath again... and consider closing the tab without posting...
I would be posting at least 25% more without that technique :)
Quote from: kalvado on February 14, 2022, 04:50:16 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 14, 2022, 04:31:57 PM
Quote from: formulanone on February 14, 2022, 04:21:53 PM
Hey, maybe we could stop replying to the troll.
I don't like to use the "ignore" feature, but I'm thinking I probably ought to do so. This jackass makes my blood pressure rise, which is no doubt exactly what he wants to do. I suspect there's something else, too, but I can't prove it.
Before hitting post button with an elevated pressure..... Relax, take a deep breath, step back from computer or phone - go grab some coffee, run a bathroom break, a quick stretch - whatever. Come back, re-read what you wrote, take a big breath again... and consider closing the tab without posting...
I would be posting at least 25% more without that technique :)
That's the problem–I did all that!
It's fun to read this thread and mentally substitute "horse" for any description of a vroom-vroom car. Because then it's like it would be ~100 years ago with curmudgeons being all ride-or-die about horses over cars.
"I have to buy this smelly chemical to make it go? Screw that, my horse can eat grass where ever I am! I won't let those car companies tell me how to get around. I like the way my horse feels when I ride it. I saw a car once; they're clearly cramped and uncomfortable. Plus, then you're stuck driving on 'roads' like a chump. My horse can go anywhere!"
Quote from: kalvado on February 14, 2022, 07:58:55 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on February 14, 2022, 01:16:49 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 13, 2022, 02:57:03 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 13, 2022, 02:25:12 PM
As time goes on and EVs become more common, I think the real threat to roadtrip vacations will not be charging times (I don't see 15 minutes as a problem as long as it really is only 15 minutes--standard advice when driving is to take breaks of that approximate length every 100 miles) [...]
I personally find the objection to the 15 minute charging time to be rather surprising. After all, on a road trip, it's fairly common for me to break for lunch for at least 30 minutes.
So, the charging time isn't 15 minutes. It's 60 minutes at minimum.
If the charging time were 15 minutes that'd be manageable, but lithium ion battery technology physically cannot accommodate this.
Charging speed is not constant. There is a range, somewhere between 30 and 70% full, where battery can charge pretty fast. It can mean optimal driving profile would include shorter, but more frequent stops top off battery within optimal charging range
So, here's the weird thing about EV charging - it's never consistent.
What is consistent is the amount of volts a charger can provide - it's 240 volts max, because that's how the power grid works. The issue is that not all power stations are created equal (hell, there's two competing standards of charging cable, one that everyone uses and one that Tesla uses). Different power stations can only deliver a certain amount of amps and therefore a certain amount of power (P = I * V). The issue is that these stations do a
bad job of telling you what is provided, so one station may charge your battery in 20 minutes (they provide more amps) but another may take 25 or 30. Without using DC fast charging (some electric cars don't even support this), the best 240V chargers can supply 80 amps, or 19.2 kW - a fifth of a 100 kW fast charger.
I can't answer why a lot of public chargers are around 6.5 kW (around 24 amps), especially since NEMA 14-50 - common in RV parks - can supply 40 amps without breaking a sweat. They're probably not using the NEMA standard.
EDIT: Last sentence edited, because there's a huge difference in time between charging at 20 kW and 100 kW.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 14, 2022, 05:22:41 PM
It's fun to read this thread and mentally substitute "horse" for any description of a vroom-vroom car. Because then it's like it would be ~100 years ago with curmudgeons being all ride-or-die about horses over cars.
"I have to buy this smelly chemical to make it go? Screw that, my horse can eat grass where ever I am! I won't let those car companies tell me how to get around. I like the way my horse feels when I ride it. I saw a car once; they're clearly cramped and uncomfortable. Plus, then you're stuck driving on 'roads' like a chump. My horse can go anywhere!"
And at that time they would have been right, a horse would have been a more dependable way to travel in the early days of the automobile. As the technology became realistically worthwhile they changed their minds. But not all technology evolves that way, some things are just not ever supposed to take off.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 14, 2022, 05:57:53 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 14, 2022, 05:22:41 PM
It's fun to read this thread and mentally substitute "horse" for any description of a vroom-vroom car. Because then it's like it would be ~100 years ago with curmudgeons being all ride-or-die about horses over cars.
"I have to buy this smelly chemical to make it go? Screw that, my horse can eat grass where ever I am! I won't let those car companies tell me how to get around. I like the way my horse feels when I ride it. I saw a car once; they're clearly cramped and uncomfortable. Plus, then you're stuck driving on 'roads' like a chump. My horse can go anywhere!"
And at that time they would have been right, a horse would have been a more dependable way to travel in the early days of the automobile. As the technology became realistically worthwhile they changed their minds. But not all technology evolves that way, some things are just not ever supposed to take off.
Like the Hindenburg.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 14, 2022, 07:00:21 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 14, 2022, 05:57:53 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 14, 2022, 05:22:41 PM
It's fun to read this thread and mentally substitute "horse" for any description of a vroom-vroom car. Because then it's like it would be ~100 years ago with curmudgeons being all ride-or-die about horses over cars.
"I have to buy this smelly chemical to make it go? Screw that, my horse can eat grass where ever I am! I won't let those car companies tell me how to get around. I like the way my horse feels when I ride it. I saw a car once; they're clearly cramped and uncomfortable. Plus, then you're stuck driving on 'roads' like a chump. My horse can go anywhere!"
And at that time they would have been right, a horse would have been a more dependable way to travel in the early days of the automobile. As the technology became realistically worthwhile they changed their minds. But not all technology evolves that way, some things are just not ever supposed to take off.
Like the Hindenburg.
Oh the Hindenburg took off alright, it was landing that had issues. :-D
Oh, I figured it out. HighwayStar's Ultimate Road Trip Car™ is a Carpenter school bus with all of the seats between the driver's and the back row by the emergency exit removed.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 14, 2022, 07:16:06 PM
Oh, I figured it out. HighwayStar's Ultimate Road Trip Car™ is a Carpenter school bus with all of the seats between the driver's and the back row by the emergency exit removed.
But where would he sit? Driver seat has to be occupied by a responsible adult...
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 14, 2022, 07:16:06 PM
Oh, I figured it out. HighwayStar's Ultimate Road Trip Car™ is a Carpenter school bus with all of the seats between the driver's and the back row by the emergency exit removed.
Oh heavens no :-D That would handle like crap, get awful mileage, and be a pain to park.
*Me taking a drive with HighwayStar*
"Pulls to the right."
Quote from: Rothman on February 14, 2022, 09:07:29 PM
*Me taking a drive with HighwayStar*
"Pulls to the right."
Plot twist, the car is right hand drive.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 14, 2022, 09:15:41 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 14, 2022, 09:07:29 PM
*Me taking a drive with HighwayStar*
"Pulls to the right."
Plot twist, the car is right hand drive.
Still pulls to the right.
Quote from: noelbotevera on February 14, 2022, 05:42:40 PM
What is consistent is the amount of volts a charger can provide - it's 240 volts max, because that's how the power grid works.
*because that's how
residential wiring works. The grid is perfectly capable of supplying power at much higher voltages, but your home is not built to handle them.
QuoteI can't answer why a lot of public chargers are around 6.5 kW (around 24 amps), especially since NEMA 14-50 - common in RV parks - can supply 40 amps without breaking a sweat. They're probably not using the NEMA standard.
Because they're being cheap and sticking to smaller wires. If they wanted to supply more juice they'd need to run larger wires that cost more money to the charger and if they're only installing these things for marketing purposes or LEED points...
This thread was pretty amusing. I see a wide variety of opinions, and I thought I would add my first-hand experience:
We have had a Model Y since September 2020. At the time, the price was comparable to the Toyota Highlander we were replacing. I have a wife and two teenagers, and we do a lot of traveling thanks to both kids' sports. It's not uncommon to have to drive a couple hundred miles round-trip for a Saturday soccer match, or to overnight out in the Central Valley for a baseball tournament. Otherwise, like most people, the majority of our travel is around-town. We live in a single family house with a garage, and I had a 240V charger wired up into our garage.
Switching to an EV has been a game-changer for us. The car charges every night, so we start out every day with a "full tank". We have taken 200+ mile Saturday round-trips without stopping to charge, driving at normal freeway speeds. The cost of electricity compared to gasoline is significantly less, since we charge overnight on a cheaper rate plan.
We have taken family road trips to places like Disneyland and as far away as San Diego, 500 miles away. We can make it about 2 hours between stopping to charge, and the average charge is about 20 minutes. (We could travel farther between charges, but the charging speed on these cars is fastest if you don't charge beyond 80% battery) When we drove to San Diego, we had to stop and charge 3 times. That's about how many times my family would stop when we were driving an ICE car on the same route, since people need to use the bathroom, have something to eat, etc.
The biggest change to long distance travel habits for our family is that when we travel I now look for a hotel that offers EV charging -or- is located near a Supercharger.
Quote from: jdbx on February 15, 2022, 02:46:10 PM
This thread was pretty amusing. I see a wide variety of opinions, and I thought I would add my first-hand experience:
We have had a Model Y since September 2020. At the time, the price was comparable to the Toyota Highlander we were replacing. I have a wife and two teenagers, and we do a lot of traveling thanks to both kids' sports. It's not uncommon to have to drive a couple hundred miles round-trip for a Saturday soccer match, or to overnight out in the Central Valley for a baseball tournament. Otherwise, like most people, the majority of our travel is around-town. We live in a single family house with a garage, and I had a 240V charger wired up into our garage.
Switching to an EV has been a game-changer for us. The car charges every night, so we start out every day with a "full tank". We have taken 200+ mile Saturday round-trips without stopping to charge, driving at normal freeway speeds. The cost of electricity compared to gasoline is significantly less, since we charge overnight on a cheaper rate plan.
We have taken family road trips to places like Disneyland and as far away as San Diego, 500 miles away. We can make it about 2 hours between stopping to charge, and the average charge is about 20 minutes. (We could travel farther between charges, but the charging speed on these cars is fastest if you don't charge beyond 80% battery) When we drove to San Diego, we had to stop and charge 3 times. That's about how many times my family would stop when we were driving an ICE car on the same route, since people need to use the bathroom, have something to eat, etc.
The biggest change to long distance travel habits for our family is that when we travel I now look for a hotel that offers EV charging -or- is located near a Supercharger.
How dare you bring rational discussion based on personal experience to this series of rants
Quote from: jdbx on February 15, 2022, 02:46:10 PM
This thread was pretty amusing. I see a wide variety of opinions, and I thought I would add my first-hand experience:
We have had a Model Y since September 2020. At the time, the price was comparable to the Toyota Highlander we were replacing. I have a wife and two teenagers, and we do a lot of traveling thanks to both kids' sports. It's not uncommon to have to drive a couple hundred miles round-trip for a Saturday soccer match, or to overnight out in the Central Valley for a baseball tournament. Otherwise, like most people, the majority of our travel is around-town. We live in a single family house with a garage, and I had a 240V charger wired up into our garage.
Switching to an EV has been a game-changer for us. The car charges every night, so we start out every day with a "full tank". We have taken 200+ mile Saturday round-trips without stopping to charge, driving at normal freeway speeds. The cost of electricity compared to gasoline is significantly less, since we charge overnight on a cheaper rate plan.
We have taken family road trips to places like Disneyland and as far away as San Diego, 500 miles away. We can make it about 2 hours between stopping to charge, and the average charge is about 20 minutes. (We could travel farther between charges, but the charging speed on these cars is fastest if you don't charge beyond 80% battery) When we drove to San Diego, we had to stop and charge 3 times. That's about how many times my family would stop when we were driving an ICE car on the same route, since people need to use the bathroom, have something to eat, etc.
The biggest change to long distance travel habits for our family is that when we travel I now look for a hotel that offers EV charging -or- is located near a Supercharger.
Nothing you wrote made it sound like a "game changer", to start with a full tank you just stop by the fuel station that is inevitably located next to every hotel in the country.
You seem to stop a great deal on your trips, which is perhaps why the EV does not irritate you, but that pace of travel is impractical for long trips.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 15, 2022, 03:32:59 PM
You seem to stop a great deal on your trips, which is perhaps why the EV does not irritate you, but that pace of travel is impractical for long trips.
Quote from: jdbx on February 15, 2022, 02:46:10 PM
When we drove to San Diego, we had to stop and charge 3 times. That's about how many times my family would stop when we were driving an ICE car on the same route, since people need to use the bathroom, have something to eat, etc.
Did you even read?
So we can add "iron butthole" to the features one needs to road trip with HighwayStar. :-D
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2013/J_Cv3I.gif)
To review, stopping is needlessly inconvenient, but it is convenient to start every day by going to a gas station.
Maybe he had a toilet installed in his Carpenter school bus so he won't ever have to stop.
Quote from: 1 on February 15, 2022, 03:41:13 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 15, 2022, 03:32:59 PM
You seem to stop a great deal on your trips, which is perhaps why the EV does not irritate you, but that pace of travel is impractical for long trips.
Quote from: jdbx on February 15, 2022, 02:46:10 PM
When we drove to San Diego, we had to stop and charge 3 times. That's about how many times my family would stop when we were driving an ICE car on the same route, since people need to use the bathroom, have something to eat, etc.
Did you even read?
Yes I read that. They stopped 3 times going to SD, which was 500 miles. So they stopped every 166 miles, which is a lot of stopping.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 15, 2022, 03:50:17 PM
Maybe he had a toilet installed in his Carpenter school bus so he won't ever have to stop.
#9 - What could've been for Cadillac:
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 15, 2022, 03:44:43 PM
So we can add "iron butthole" to the features one needs to road trip with HighwayStar. :-D
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2013/J_Cv3I.gif)
To review, stopping is needlessly inconvenient, but it is convenient to start every day by going to a gas station.
You could just as easily end every night at a gas station, which is what I do. I usually have the gas stops planned tightly enough that I have to get gas at wherever I am staying anyway.
Quote from: jdbx on February 15, 2022, 02:46:10 PM
.... We live in a single family house with a garage, and I had a 240V charger wired up into our garage. ....
If you don't mind my asking, what did that cost and what did the installation involve?
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 15, 2022, 03:32:59 PM
Nothing you wrote made it sound like a "game changer", to start with a full tank you just stop by the fuel station that is inevitably located next to every hotel in the country.
You seem to stop a great deal on your trips, which is perhaps why the EV does not irritate you, but that pace of travel is impractical for long trips.
The "game changer" is that every single day when I am not on a road trip, which is easily 300+/year, I don't once think about fueling my vehicle. I just get in and drive. I plug it in when I park at night. I don't think about the cost of gasoline, I don't need to stand outside in the heat or cold, or even just take that 3-5 minutes out of my day however many times a week to get gas like I used to with my ICE vehicle.
I am not sure what your family situation is like, but I promise that if I did not allow my wife or children to relieve themselves every couple hours on a long drive, I would be traveling solo and likely sleeping solo as well. No thanks, I'd rather have my family be comfortable and want to travel with me.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 15, 2022, 04:00:55 PM
Quote from: jdbx on February 15, 2022, 02:46:10 PM
.... We live in a single family house with a garage, and I had a 240V charger wired up into our garage. ....
If you don't mind my asking, what did that cost and what did the installation involve?
The charger itself was about $500, and the wire and materials to connect it were about another $150. My garage is on the same side of the house as my breaker panel, and I already have 200A service, so it was pretty simple. Labor was free since my buddy is an electrician, I just had to make sure we had some cold beer for when we were finished. Obviously it can get a lot more expensive if you need to upgrade your service, have a longer cable run, or need to pay an electrician, pull permits, etc. The good news is that there are still tax incentives so you can write off a portion of it, and a lot of utility companies will also provide rebates.
Quote from: jdbx on February 15, 2022, 04:45:12 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 15, 2022, 03:32:59 PM
Nothing you wrote made it sound like a "game changer", to start with a full tank you just stop by the fuel station that is inevitably located next to every hotel in the country.
You seem to stop a great deal on your trips, which is perhaps why the EV does not irritate you, but that pace of travel is impractical for long trips.
The "game changer" is that every single day when I am not on a road trip, which is easily 300+/year, I don't once think about fueling my vehicle. I just get in and drive. I plug it in when I park at night. I don't think about the cost of gasoline, I don't need to stand outside in the heat or cold, or even just take that 3-5 minutes out of my day however many times a week to get gas like I used to with my ICE vehicle.
I am not sure what your family situation is like, but I promise that if I did not allow my wife or children to relieve themselves every couple hours on a long drive, I would be traveling solo and likely sleeping solo as well. No thanks, I'd rather have my family be comfortable and want to travel with me.
I only fuel the vehicle maybe every other week, and I don't have to remember to plug it in and charge it every night. Either way that is hardly a game changer. A far bigger game changer is driving a comfortable nice car for the time I am in it. I don't think about the cost of gas either, it is whatever it is. Though I guess if you were worrying about the cost of gas before you are now worrying about the cost of electricity, seems like a 1:1 trade. Also I don't have a charger at my house so I could not charge the car there if I wanted to.
In all the trips I have taken with all kinds of people, I cannot once remember a trip where we had to stop every 166 miles for bathroom breaks, not even one that was inaugurated with a round of 52 ounce big gulp sodas.
That said, if your EV makes you happy I don't really care, more gasoline for the rest of us.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 15, 2022, 03:50:58 PM
Quote from: 1 on February 15, 2022, 03:41:13 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 15, 2022, 03:32:59 PM
You seem to stop a great deal on your trips, which is perhaps why the EV does not irritate you, but that pace of travel is impractical for long trips.
Quote from: jdbx on February 15, 2022, 02:46:10 PM
When we drove to San Diego, we had to stop and charge 3 times. That's about how many times my family would stop when we were driving an ICE car on the same route, since people need to use the bathroom, have something to eat, etc.
Did you even read?
Yes I read that. They stopped 3 times going to SD, which was 500 miles. So they stopped every 166 miles, which is a lot of stopping.
So he stopped every 2-3 hours. I do the same when I drive. I suppose I could get one of these (https://www.walmart.com/ip/Portable-Vehicle-or-Outdoor-Unisex-Adult-Urinal/655233316), but honestly I don't think it's healthy to drive longer without getting out of the car and stretching a bit, even if it's only for a few minutes.
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2022, 05:07:08 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 15, 2022, 03:50:58 PM
Quote from: 1 on February 15, 2022, 03:41:13 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 15, 2022, 03:32:59 PM
You seem to stop a great deal on your trips, which is perhaps why the EV does not irritate you, but that pace of travel is impractical for long trips.
Quote from: jdbx on February 15, 2022, 02:46:10 PM
When we drove to San Diego, we had to stop and charge 3 times. That's about how many times my family would stop when we were driving an ICE car on the same route, since people need to use the bathroom, have something to eat, etc.
Did you even read?
Yes I read that. They stopped 3 times going to SD, which was 500 miles. So they stopped every 166 miles, which is a lot of stopping.
So he stopped every 2-3 hours. I do the same when I drive. I suppose I could get one of these (https://www.walmart.com/ip/Portable-Vehicle-or-Outdoor-Unisex-Adult-Urinal/655233316), but honestly I don't think it's healthy to drive longer without getting out of the car and stretching a bit, even if it's only for a few minutes.
I once went 1100 miles and only stopped twice (Covid thing). I don't expect everyone to be into endurance driving however.
I'm not buying one of those unless I end up on a Cannonball run crew however.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 15, 2022, 04:55:09 PM
I only fuel the vehicle maybe every other week, and I don't have to remember to plug it in and charge it every night. Either way that is hardly a game changer. A far bigger game changer is driving a comfortable nice car for the time I am in it. I don't think about the cost of gas either, it is whatever it is.
How much does it usually cost you to gas up a school bus?
Someone really saying that renting cars is a BAD thing? You must not like cars, because I love being able to pick a different vehicle every time from the Emerald Aisle and comparing my driving experience.
As for much longer trips....fortunately, I can afford plane tickets, and I value my time. Why waste 10 hours dodging trucks when I can be at my destination in 3? The last time I took a legit road trip to national parks, I rented an SUV because why on earth would I want to put all those miles and wear and tear on my personal vehicle?
As for the topic...I test drove a Tesla a couple of months ago because they make it incredibly easy to do so (book a time slot online, no sales pressure). The acceleration was truly fantastic, but Im not sold on everything being on a screen. I like buttons.
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2022, 05:07:08 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 15, 2022, 03:50:58 PM
Quote from: 1 on February 15, 2022, 03:41:13 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 15, 2022, 03:32:59 PM
You seem to stop a great deal on your trips, which is perhaps why the EV does not irritate you, but that pace of travel is impractical for long trips.
Quote from: jdbx on February 15, 2022, 02:46:10 PM
When we drove to San Diego, we had to stop and charge 3 times. That's about how many times my family would stop when we were driving an ICE car on the same route, since people need to use the bathroom, have something to eat, etc.
Did you even read?
Yes I read that. They stopped 3 times going to SD, which was 500 miles. So they stopped every 166 miles, which is a lot of stopping.
So he stopped every 2-3 hours. I do the same when I drive. I suppose I could get one of these (https://www.walmart.com/ip/Portable-Vehicle-or-Outdoor-Unisex-Adult-Urinal/655233316), but honestly I don't think it's healthy to drive longer without getting out of the car and stretching a bit, even if it's only for a few minutes.
Heh. From
Car and Driver's "EV 1000" article:
QuoteVanderWerp, in the Model S, wanted to post a big number on the first leg to make a statement. Possibly that statement was "No owner would ever do this." To maximize the energy available for moving the car, he ran a radar detector off a portable battery and played music through a Bluetooth speaker. With climate control off, the cabin temperature reached 86 degrees despite a 65-degree ambient temperature. At least all the sweating meant that neither VanderWerp nor his partner needed the TravelJohn disposable urinals they'd brought. They plugged into their first Supercharger after 326 miles and were back on the road 26 minutes later.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 15, 2022, 05:34:49 PM
VanderWerp, in the Model S, wanted to post a big number on the first leg to make a statement. Possibly that statement was "No owner would ever do this." To maximize the energy available for moving the car, he ran a radar detector off a portable battery and played music through a Bluetooth speaker. With climate control off, the cabin temperature reached 86 degrees despite a 65-degree ambient temperature. At least all the sweating meant that neither VanderWerp nor his partner needed the TravelJohn disposable urinals they'd brought. They plugged into their first Supercharger after 326 miles and were back on the road 26 minutes later.
[/quote]
Yeah what a classy way to travel. Running everything on portable batteries, listening to some crap quality Bluetooth speaker, in sweltering heat, just to achieve a range that would be possible in my economy car under the worst possible conditions. I like to be able to turn up the AC and run that THX sound system without worrying about the battery life, but I guess I'm crazy.
Quote from: jamess on February 15, 2022, 05:31:02 PM
Someone really saying that renting cars is a BAD thing? You must not like cars, because I love being able to pick a different vehicle every time from the Emerald Aisle and comparing my driving experience.
As for much longer trips....fortunately, I can afford plane tickets, and I value my time. Why waste 10 hours dodging trucks when I can be at my destination in 3? The last time I took a legit road trip to national parks, I rented an SUV because why on earth would I want to put all those miles and wear and tear on my personal vehicle?
As for the topic...I test drove a Tesla a couple of months ago because they make it incredibly easy to do so (book a time slot online, no sales pressure). The acceleration was truly fantastic, but Im not sold on everything being on a screen. I like buttons.
Why would I want to pick a different vehicle every time when they are all inferior to the car I have? And even if they were not, they are never cared for properly anyway.
I can afford plane tickets, they are actually cheaper than driving, but fortunately I can afford to drive instead and not sit in a pressurized tin can stuck between a crying baby and someone heaving into a paper bag for 5 hours while fitting all my luggage into a handbag. Flying ceased to be a pleasant way to travel decades ago.
If you have a sufficiently nice car spending 10 hours cruising down the highway is far more enjoyable than spending a fraction of that time in the air. Just kick back, put on a double live album, sip on a coke and watch the miles go by.
Why would I worry about putting miles on my personal vehicle, I have it to drive, not look at.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 15, 2022, 05:54:21 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 15, 2022, 05:34:49 PM
QuoteVanderWerp, in the Model S, wanted to post a big number on the first leg to make a statement. Possibly that statement was "No owner would ever do this." To maximize the energy available for moving the car, he ran a radar detector off a portable battery and played music through a Bluetooth speaker. With climate control off, the cabin temperature reached 86 degrees despite a 65-degree ambient temperature. At least all the sweating meant that neither VanderWerp nor his partner needed the TravelJohn disposable urinals they'd brought. They plugged into their first Supercharger after 326 miles and were back on the road 26 minutes later.
Yeah what a classy way to travel. Running everything on portable batteries, listening to some crap quality Bluetooth speaker, in sweltering heat, just to achieve a range that would be possible in my economy car under the worst possible conditions. I like to be able to turn up the AC and run that THX sound system without worrying about the battery life, but I guess I'm crazy.
You're not crazy, you're just ignorant and arrogant. Note the boldfaced, which is part of the quotation from that article. They were conducting a rally-style EV race on a loop that began and ended in Ann Arbor. The drivers were free to use whatever route they wanted as long as they passed through certain designated checkpoints and as long as they stopped for the night between certain hours. VanderWerp wanted to, you know, WIN THE RACE.
I mean, Cannonball drivers do all sorts of absurd things rational drivers wouldn't do either. I happen to agree with you that I would use climate control and the car stereo rather than sweating and bringing portable batteries just to increase range. But unlike you, I'm intelligent enough to have read the entire quotation and to understand that the driver in question was intentionally taking extreme steps, whereas you stubbornly try to twist it to support your little delusions.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 15, 2022, 06:00:41 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 15, 2022, 05:54:21 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 15, 2022, 05:34:49 PM
QuoteVanderWerp, in the Model S, wanted to post a big number on the first leg to make a statement. Possibly that statement was "No owner would ever do this." To maximize the energy available for moving the car, he ran a radar detector off a portable battery and played music through a Bluetooth speaker. With climate control off, the cabin temperature reached 86 degrees despite a 65-degree ambient temperature. At least all the sweating meant that neither VanderWerp nor his partner needed the TravelJohn disposable urinals they'd brought. They plugged into their first Supercharger after 326 miles and were back on the road 26 minutes later.
Yeah what a classy way to travel. Running everything on portable batteries, listening to some crap quality Bluetooth speaker, in sweltering heat, just to achieve a range that would be possible in my economy car under the worst possible conditions. I like to be able to turn up the AC and run that THX sound system without worrying about the battery life, but I guess I'm crazy.
You're not crazy, you're just ignorant and arrogant. Note the boldfaced, which is part of the quotation from that article. They were conducting a rally-style EV race on a loop that began and ended in Ann Arbor. The drivers were free to use whatever route they wanted as long as they passed through certain designated checkpoints and as long as they stopped for the night between certain hours. VanderWerp wanted to, you know, WIN THE RACE.
I mean, Cannonball drivers do all sorts of absurd things rational drivers wouldn't do either. I happen to agree with you that I would use climate control and the car stereo rather than sweating and bringing portable batteries just to increase range. But unlike you, I'm intelligent enough to have read the entire quotation and to understand that the driver in question was intentionally taking extreme steps, whereas you stubbornly try to twist it to support your little delusions.
Yeah I had already read the boldface, but that does not change the conclusion. They went to those lengths to achieve something that I could do in a legit beater car with ease. Its obvious no owner is going to drive it like that, but I have done many drives where I did 326+ miles without stopping, so it is relevant.
But if you do those things then you get less range, whereas in my ICE cars I can have my cake and eat it too.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 15, 2022, 03:50:58 PM
They stopped 3 times going to SD, which was 500 miles. So they stopped every 166 miles, which is a lot of stopping.
I dunno, in our history of going the 700 miles between IL and MS where my brother lives, we probably average 3 stops per trip if we drive straight through. Sometimes 2. So 166 would be slightly longer than our average trip leg, but only by an hour or so, which would be important to some but not others. I guess the point is that, with an ICE vehicle, you have the option of going 400+ miles till the fuel light starts flashing, or a more leisurely pace...but in anything except maybe a Lucid or a max-range Model S, your EV trip legs are more limited.
Hell, I stop every 2-3 hours just to take a break for a couple minutes much less relieve my bladder.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 06:20:17 PM
Hell, I stop every 2-3 hours just to take a break for a couple minutes much less relieve my bladder.
Hey, if the alternative was sitting at home inside a barbed-wire fence, you wouldn't want to waste time getting away from that place either.
Hm. I typically don't stop unless I need gas, so every 4 hours or so.
^^^
Generally where I'm going the side of the road is an adequate enough rest area. Either way my attention span starts to wane after that 2-3 hour window. Even 3-5 minutes is usually enough to get my focus back on track. Seems like the side of the road and a 3-5 minute probably isn't very conducive for charging an electric motor though.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 15, 2022, 06:42:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 06:20:17 PM
Hell, I stop every 2-3 hours just to take a break for a couple minutes much less relieve my bladder.
Hey, if the alternative was sitting at home inside a barbed-wire fence, you wouldn't want to waste time getting away from that place either.
I half want to know if there is an empty Amazon delivery driver style bottle involved with these super huge segments of not taking a break cited by Mr. Star. It seems clear from his posting that he likely doesn't suffer from IBS.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 06:48:35 PM
^^^
Generally where I'm going the side of the road is an adequate enough rest area. Either way my attention span starts to wane after that 2-3 hour window. Even 3-5 minutes is usually enough to get my focus back on track. Seems like the side of the road and a 3-5 minute probably isn't very conducive for charging an electric motor though.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 15, 2022, 06:42:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 06:20:17 PM
Hell, I stop every 2-3 hours just to take a break for a couple minutes much less relieve my bladder.
Hey, if the alternative was sitting at home inside a barbed-wire fence, you wouldn't want to waste time getting away from that place either.
I half want to know if there is an empty bottle involved with these super huge segments of not taking a break cited by Mr. Star. It seems clear from his posting that he likely doesn't suffer from IBS.
Rest assured no such devices involved. :-D
Just checking Google, one was 362 miles, calculated drive time of 6 hours. Another was 361 miles, calculated drive time 5.5 hours. And the other was 366 miles, drive time 5.5 hours.
A different trip had a 358 that google says was 5.75 hours, but I know it took a full hour just to leave Philly that morning, so say 6.75.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 15, 2022, 06:56:26 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 06:48:35 PM
^^^
Generally where I'm going the side of the road is an adequate enough rest area. Either way my attention span starts to wane after that 2-3 hour window. Even 3-5 minutes is usually enough to get my focus back on track. Seems like the side of the road and a 3-5 minute probably isn't very conducive for charging an electric motor though.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 15, 2022, 06:42:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 06:20:17 PM
Hell, I stop every 2-3 hours just to take a break for a couple minutes much less relieve my bladder.
Hey, if the alternative was sitting at home inside a barbed-wire fence, you wouldn't want to waste time getting away from that place either.
I half want to know if there is an empty bottle involved with these super huge segments of not taking a break cited by Mr. Star. It seems clear from his posting that he likely doesn't suffer from IBS.
Rest assured no such devices involved. :-D
Just checking Google, one was 362 miles, calculated drive time of 6 hours. Another was 361 miles, calculated drive time 5.5 hours. And the other was 366 miles, drive time 5.5 hours.
A different trip had a 358 that google says was 5.75 hours, but I know it took a full hour just to leave Philly that morning, so say 6.75.
I want to say the last time I deliberately drove for that long without stopping was in 2011 when one of my investigators complained I stopped too much on the way Ruidoso from Phoenix. Usually on that route I would generally stop in Willcox for food and the Gage Rest Area. Never mind he never drove nor ever fronted his own lodging expenses on those lengthy trips. I think that I made him take his own car the next time we needed someone out in New Mexico.
I think on that trip I actually made it the 492 miles without a fill up. My work car could get as high as 580 miles on a tank back then. I may have filled up in Alamogordo or Tularosa but I don't think I did.
I know that everybody has different circumstances, but I think it's important to remember that travel habits can be very different depending on who is riding with you, their age, any medical concerns, etc. When I was in my 20's, I thought nothing of hopping in a car and driving to Phoenix 800 miles away driving straight-through in about 10 hours, only stopping maybe twice for gas. Could I do that again with my remaining ICE vehicle? Sure! Would my 40-something back and legs hate me for it? Absolutely! Would my 13 year old kid make me miserable complaining about wanting to stop or being hungry? Guaranteed!
ICE vehicles are fine, I still own a truck to tow my boat, and my 16 year old daughter recently got an older Civic which is a perfect car for teen driver IMHO. EVs are still an emerging technology, and I think that charging technology and energy density of batteries will soon make them very comparable to an ICE vehicle in terms of overall range and recharge time, we're just not there yet. The point I was trying to make was that my family has been living with one for awhile and it's been an overall improvement in our lifestyle and had made our monthly budget more predictable.
I shared my perspective because a lot of the comments I have seen are from people who don't actually own or use them on a regular basis. I just your average roadgeek over here offering another relevant observation. I'll admit that my perspective is skewed by the area I live in, my family, and my lifestyle. So is yours.
I don't stop unless I have to, and that's only for necessities (fuel or bathroom breaks) and I make those stops as brief as possible. I don't stop to eat; I get drive-through or carryout and eat while I'm driving. It's not all that often that I find myself needing to stop solely for the sake of stretching my legs. Those factors make electric cars less practical for me.
For those of you who have installed home chargers -- what has that done to your home electricity rates? Did your power consumption, and therefore your bills, go up significantly?
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 15, 2022, 06:06:00 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 15, 2022, 06:00:41 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 15, 2022, 05:54:21 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 15, 2022, 05:34:49 PM
QuoteVanderWerp, in the Model S, wanted to post a big number on the first leg to make a statement. Possibly that statement was "No owner would ever do this." To maximize the energy available for moving the car, he ran a radar detector off a portable battery and played music through a Bluetooth speaker. With climate control off, the cabin temperature reached 86 degrees despite a 65-degree ambient temperature. At least all the sweating meant that neither VanderWerp nor his partner needed the TravelJohn disposable urinals they'd brought. They plugged into their first Supercharger after 326 miles and were back on the road 26 minutes later.
Yeah what a classy way to travel. Running everything on portable batteries, listening to some crap quality Bluetooth speaker, in sweltering heat, just to achieve a range that would be possible in my economy car under the worst possible conditions. I like to be able to turn up the AC and run that THX sound system without worrying about the battery life, but I guess I'm crazy.
You're not crazy, you're just ignorant and arrogant. Note the boldfaced, which is part of the quotation from that article. They were conducting a rally-style EV race on a loop that began and ended in Ann Arbor. The drivers were free to use whatever route they wanted as long as they passed through certain designated checkpoints and as long as they stopped for the night between certain hours. VanderWerp wanted to, you know, WIN THE RACE.
I mean, Cannonball drivers do all sorts of absurd things rational drivers wouldn't do either. I happen to agree with you that I would use climate control and the car stereo rather than sweating and bringing portable batteries just to increase range. But unlike you, I'm intelligent enough to have read the entire quotation and to understand that the driver in question was intentionally taking extreme steps, whereas you stubbornly try to twist it to support your little delusions.
Yeah I had already read the boldface, but that does not change the conclusion. They went to those lengths to achieve something that I could do in a legit beater car with ease. Its obvious no owner is going to drive it like that, but I have done many drives where I did 326+ miles without stopping, so it is relevant.
But if you do those things then you get less range, whereas in my ICE cars I can have my cake and eat it too.
But your prattling on about what you can do in your beater car is irrelevant. The writers' assignment was to race electric vehicles. Thus, gas and diesel cars and what they can do is totally irrelevant.
BTW, my primary gas car can go over 450 miles on a tank (farthest I've gone between fillups in that car was 455 miles); my wife's can go at least 534 miles (the farthest we've gone between fillups, so I know it can go further but I don't know how much). I personally am incapable of going that far without stopping–if I try, my lower back will give out and I'll be in enough pain that's it's just not worth trying it. So yes, of course I know gas cars can go farther than the EVs in that article. But that wasn't the point of the article, and your little rants don't change that.
Quote from: jdbx on February 15, 2022, 07:08:02 PM
I know that everybody has different circumstances, but I think it's important to remember that travel habits can be very different depending on who is riding with you, their age, any medical concerns, etc. ....
Heh, not according to HighwayStar. I strongly suspect he's the type of person who would call a fat woman fat to her face and then, when she takes offense, will say "my comment was accurate, so you have no basis to be offended."
Quote from: hbelkins on February 15, 2022, 07:20:14 PM
I don't stop unless I have to, and that's only for necessities (fuel or bathroom breaks) and I make those stops as brief as possible. I don't stop to eat; I get drive-through or carryout and eat while I'm driving. It's not all that often that I find myself needing to stop solely for the sake of stretching my legs. Those factors make electric cars less practical for me.
I would hazard a guess that the percentage of people who prefer eating in a car is lower than those that prefer stopping. I can eat in the car if I'm running short on time, but if eating at an actual table is at all an option, I greatly prefer doing that. And there are some people who absolutely will not have food in their car at all, full stop, because of the messiness or the smell. (I remember reading one of the forum regulars even goes to the extreme of putting takeout in their trunk out of a fear of lingering food odors.)
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 15, 2022, 07:54:14 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 15, 2022, 07:20:14 PM
I don't stop unless I have to, and that's only for necessities (fuel or bathroom breaks) and I make those stops as brief as possible. I don't stop to eat; I get drive-through or carryout and eat while I'm driving. It's not all that often that I find myself needing to stop solely for the sake of stretching my legs. Those factors make electric cars less practical for me.
I would hazard a guess that the percentage of people who prefer eating in a car is lower than those that prefer stopping. I can eat in the car if I'm running short on time, but if eating at an actual table is at all an option, I greatly prefer doing that. And there are some people who absolutely will not have food in their car at all, full stop, because of the messiness or the smell. (I remember reading one of the forum regulars even goes to the extreme of putting takeout in their trunk out of a fear of lingering food odors.)
That post was from a while ago, but he still does that.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 03, 2018, 07:33:38 PM
I never eat in the car other than maybe a candy bar or M&Ms; I also don't transport fast food in the passenger compartment so the cars won't absorb the aroma (so if I want to get food to go, I don't use the drive-thru–I go inside and then put it in the trunk). The exception to the latter is if I'm driving the convertible with the top down.
When I was in school I used to eat in the car every once in a while, but I stopped that years ago. Trying to eat something like a burger was never easy while operating a manual shift anyway.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 15, 2022, 04:55:09 PM
...I don't think about the cost of gasoline...
If his location is true, he doesn't think about the cost of gas because he doesn't want to think how it's generally the highest price east of the Rockies.
I started to get rib pain from sitting in the car too long a couple of years ago. Solution: Slightly recline the seat. Back to longer stints.
Quote from: Rothman on February 15, 2022, 11:14:08 PM
I started to get rib pain from sitting in the car too long a couple of years ago. Solution: Slightly recline the seat. Back to longer stints.
For my endurance drives I deploy a neck pillow in conjunction with a more reclined seat. Makes the head/neck extremely comfortable.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 15, 2022, 05:34:49 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2022, 05:07:08 PM
So he stopped every 2-3 hours. I do the same when I drive. I suppose I could get one of these (https://www.walmart.com/ip/Portable-Vehicle-or-Outdoor-Unisex-Adult-Urinal/655233316), but honestly I don't think it's healthy to drive longer without getting out of the car and stretching a bit, even if it's only for a few minutes.
Heh. From Car and Driver's "EV 1000" article:
QuoteVanderWerp, in the Model S, wanted to post a big number on the first leg to make a statement. Possibly that statement was "No owner would ever do this." To maximize the energy available for moving the car, he ran a radar detector off a portable battery and played music through a Bluetooth speaker. With climate control off, the cabin temperature reached 86 degrees despite a 65-degree ambient temperature. At least all the sweating meant that neither VanderWerp nor his partner needed the TravelJohn disposable urinals they'd brought. They plugged into their first Supercharger after 326 miles and were back on the road 26 minutes later.
In the interest of further clarifying what the "EV 1000" article was about, here are the first three paragraphs. I suppose I should give a proper citation:
Eric Tingwall, "The EV 1000," Car and Driver, July/Aug. 2021, at 55.
Quote
We didn't initially conceive this story as a race. But if you tell two or more Car and Driver editors that they need to drive from a start line to a finish line, there's no going back: You've officially sanctioned a race. Check the FIA sporting regulations.
The plan was to benchmark the state of EV technology and the nation's charging infrastructure by road-tripping EVs beyond the range of a single charge. By the time we got to the start line, we had the 11 vehicles from our EV of the Year test staged for a 1000-mile lap through four states, plus a name to prove that what we were about to do was twice as hardcore as the Indy 500: the EV 1000.
We did our best to keep it relatable to you, dear reader, by banning the usual hijinks: no taped-over panel gaps, no stripped interiors to save weight, no rented U-Hauls to break the wind. The point, we said over and over, was to capture the experience of driving an EV on a long road trip, just as an owner might. Naturally, then, half the teams pumped their tires over the recommended pressure, looking for any advantage that might go unnoticed.
At the end of the article, they reached the following conclusions (page 60):
Quote
Tesla's sweep of the podium makes it clear: If you want to regularly drive long distances in an EV today, you'll want a car with access to Tesla's proprietary charging infrastructure. The rest of the group trickled in over the next several hours, with the exception of the Leaf, which needed twice as long as the Tesla Model S to finish. With its short range and slow charging, the Nissan clearly wasn't intended to stray far from home.
Our drivers are split when asked whether the EV 1000 was harder or easier than expected, but most say that if they were to do the trip again, they would do one thing differently: drive a gas car. And that includes the Tesla drivers. We'll know that the charging networks and EV technology are fully baked when we're no longer saying that.
The EVs involved, in order of finish: Tesla Model S Long Range Plus; Tesla Model Y Performance; Tesla Model 3 Performance; Ford Mustang Mach-E 4X; Porsche Taycan 4S PBP; Kia Niro EV; Audi e-tron; Volkswagen ID.4; Volvo XC40 Recharge; Polestar 2; Nissan Leaf Plus. (The Nissan took more than double the Model S's total time to finish, including both driving and charging time–16:14 for the Tesla, 32:57 for the Nissan. The Polestar had a problem with buggy software at some charging stations.)
Edited to fix a typo.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 15, 2022, 08:01:25 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 15, 2022, 07:54:14 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 15, 2022, 07:20:14 PM
I don't stop unless I have to, and that's only for necessities (fuel or bathroom breaks) and I make those stops as brief as possible. I don't stop to eat; I get drive-through or carryout and eat while I'm driving. It's not all that often that I find myself needing to stop solely for the sake of stretching my legs. Those factors make electric cars less practical for me.
I would hazard a guess that the percentage of people who prefer eating in a car is lower than those that prefer stopping. I can eat in the car if I'm running short on time, but if eating at an actual table is at all an option, I greatly prefer doing that. And there are some people who absolutely will not have food in their car at all, full stop, because of the messiness or the smell. (I remember reading one of the forum regulars even goes to the extreme of putting takeout in their trunk out of a fear of lingering food odors.)
That post was from a while ago, but he still does that.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 03, 2018, 07:33:38 PM
I never eat in the car other than maybe a candy bar or M&Ms; I also don't transport fast food in the passenger compartment so the cars won't absorb the aroma (so if I want to get food to go, I don't use the drive-thru–I go inside and then put it in the trunk). The exception to the latter is if I'm driving the convertible with the top down.
When I was in school I used to eat in the car every once in a while, but I stopped that years ago. Trying to eat something like a burger was never easy while operating a manual shift anyway.
Same for me. I don't like anybody eating in the car because crumbs invariably end up everywhere. No take-out in the passenger compartment either, the last thing I want is for my car to smell like last night's chicken tikka masala.
A good-quality food delivery bag is all you need to contain smells. I've delivered many very smelly foods in my car and it doesn't linger around. If there is a spill (mostly drinks and the like despite the cupholder system I use), then a bit of charcoal usually does the trick.
So to throw a bone to HighwayStar, I was just reading a review of Mazda's new EV, the MX-30. The review generally praised it but noted one not-so-minor problem: Its EPA-estimated range is only 100 miles, and the review said in practical use (including some highway driving, climate control on, etc.) the actual range is more like 70 miles. That's ridiculous, especially in a vehicle with a starting MSRP of $33,000. 70 miles is nothing. It's easy to drive 70 miles just in local driving.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 19, 2022, 08:38:41 AM
So to throw a bone to HighwayStar, I was just reading a review of Mazda's new EV, the MX-30. The review generally praised it but noted one not-so-minor problem: Its EPA-estimated range is only 100 miles, and the review said in practical use (including some highway driving, climate control on, etc.) the actual range is more like 70 miles. That's ridiculous, especially in a vehicle with a starting MSRP of $33,000. 70 miles is nothing. It's easy to drive 70 miles just in local driving.
Also, a few years ago there was a (lake effect?)snowstorm that dumped nearly a meter of snow on downtown Chicago during an evening commuter rush, standing likely over 1000 drivers in their cars for hours in the snow on Lake Shore Drive.
A commentary that I heard on the radio a couple of days later include thoughts on how many of those people might have died had they been in such straight battery-electric cars and the batteries run down just keeping the heat on.
Mike
^^^^^
The debacle on I-95 in Virginia earlier this winter led to some discussion of that on the news. There was some pretty convincing evidence that EV drivers were actually better-able to keep their cars heated than gas-car drivers, though of course the particular type of EV would be a very significant factor in that equation. Something with a dinky battery like that Mazda likely wouldn't do too well, but then I wonder how many of those would have been on the highway in the first place even if they had been more widely available at the time.
Nobody was going to die in downtown Chicago because the batteries ran out on their cars in a snowstorm. There are legitimate issues with EV's that prevent many people from purchasing them, but being hyperbolic isn't helpful.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 19, 2022, 11:34:15 AM
Nobody was going to die in downtown Chicago because the batteries ran out on their cars in a snowstorm. There are legitimate issues with EV's that prevent many people from purchasing them, but being hyperbolic isn't helpful.
That greatly depends on where in Chicago you break down. I would rather be stranded in the Dakotas in a blizzard than some parts of Chicago, at least unless the vehicle is an M1 Tank.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 19, 2022, 12:35:22 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 19, 2022, 11:34:15 AM
Nobody was going to die in downtown Chicago because the batteries ran out on their cars in a snowstorm. There are legitimate issues with EV's that prevent many people from purchasing them, but being hyperbolic isn't helpful.
Well this was specifically Lake Shore Drive. Which means you were never more than a few blocks from somewhere nice and warm, not to mention that police were patrolling the area giving out food, water and fuel.
But I wouldn't care where this happened in Chicago. Of course, I don't stay away from the city in a panic either.
That greatly depends on where in Chicago you break down. I would rather be stranded in the Dakotas in a blizzard than some parts of Chicago, at least unless the vehicle is an M1 Tank.
I lived in Chicago, you aren't likely to find trouble unless you're actively looking for it. More than likely if you broke down you would be left alone. You definitely would get help infinitely faster anywhere in Chicago compared to rural South Dakota.
Quote from: mgk920 on February 19, 2022, 09:29:56 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 19, 2022, 08:38:41 AM
So to throw a bone to HighwayStar, I was just reading a review of Mazda's new EV, the MX-30. The review generally praised it but noted one not-so-minor problem: Its EPA-estimated range is only 100 miles, and the review said in practical use (including some highway driving, climate control on, etc.) the actual range is more like 70 miles. That's ridiculous, especially in a vehicle with a starting MSRP of $33,000. 70 miles is nothing. It's easy to drive 70 miles just in local driving.
Also, a few years ago there was a (lake effect?)snowstorm that dumped nearly a meter of snow on downtown Chicago during an evening commuter rush, standing likely over 1000 drivers in their cars for hours in the snow on Lake Shore Drive.
A commentary that I heard on the radio a couple of days later include thoughts on how many of those people might have died had they been in such straight battery-electric cars and the batteries run down just keeping the heat on.
Mike
I never get this. Anytime there's people stranded on a highway, ultimately some will run out of gas. Yet these news reporters and EV-haters keep focusing on if people had an electric vehicle, they would run out of electric. I'm having a tough time finding a single person who ended up running out of electric.
People have run out of gas, even though gas stations are plentiful, and there's endless alerts warning people to keep their tanks no less than half-full in winter weather. Why not focus on those idiots first.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 19, 2022, 01:13:17 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on February 19, 2022, 09:29:56 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 19, 2022, 08:38:41 AM
So to throw a bone to HighwayStar, I was just reading a review of Mazda's new EV, the MX-30. The review generally praised it but noted one not-so-minor problem: Its EPA-estimated range is only 100 miles, and the review said in practical use (including some highway driving, climate control on, etc.) the actual range is more like 70 miles. That's ridiculous, especially in a vehicle with a starting MSRP of $33,000. 70 miles is nothing. It's easy to drive 70 miles just in local driving.
Also, a few years ago there was a (lake effect?)snowstorm that dumped nearly a meter of snow on downtown Chicago during an evening commuter rush, standing likely over 1000 drivers in their cars for hours in the snow on Lake Shore Drive.
A commentary that I heard on the radio a couple of days later include thoughts on how many of those people might have died had they been in such straight battery-electric cars and the batteries run down just keeping the heat on.
Mike
I never get this. Anytime there's people stranded on a highway, ultimately some will run out of gas. Yet these news reporters and EV-haters keep focusing on if people had an electric vehicle, they would run out of electric. I'm having a tough time finding a single person who ended up running out of electric.
People have run out of gas, even though gas stations are plentiful, and there's endless alerts warning people to keep their tanks no less than half-full in winter weather. Why not focus on those idiots first.
One may argue that it is much easier to replenish gas on a highway.
On the other hand, I wonder what is the idling endurance of ICE with half tank compared to climate control only EV with half battery
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 19, 2022, 12:51:39 PM
I lived in Chicago, you aren't likely to find trouble unless you're actively looking for it. More than likely if you broke down you would be left alone. You definitely would get help infinitely faster anywhere in Chicago compared to rural South Dakota.
Nearly 800 people were killed in Chicago just last year. Unless I am going to breakdown with a couple companies of Marines I would much rather be in South Dakota.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 19, 2022, 03:20:39 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 19, 2022, 12:51:39 PM
I lived in Chicago, you aren't likely to find trouble unless you're actively looking for it. More than likely if you broke down you would be left alone. You definitely would get help infinitely faster anywhere in Chicago compared to rural South Dakota.
Nearly 800 people were killed in Chicago just last year. Unless I am going to breakdown with a couple companies of Marines I would much rather be in South Dakota.
That's slightly more than two per day out of a population of almost 3 million. And most homicides are of people they know, not strangers.
Quote from: 1 on February 19, 2022, 03:23:11 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 19, 2022, 03:20:39 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 19, 2022, 12:51:39 PM
I lived in Chicago, you aren't likely to find trouble unless you're actively looking for it. More than likely if you broke down you would be left alone. You definitely would get help infinitely faster anywhere in Chicago compared to rural South Dakota.
Nearly 800 people were killed in Chicago just last year. Unless I am going to breakdown with a couple companies of Marines I would much rather be in South Dakota.
That's slightly more than two per day out of a population of almost 3 million. And most homicides are of people they know, not strangers.
That is a rate 7 fold where I live. Of course, that is just homicides, which are a great way to proxy other crimes. Multiply those numbers for people that were attacked, shot but did not die, or robbed. And while many are people that they knew, that does not mean a stranger in the wrong part of town is not a target.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 19, 2022, 03:20:39 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 19, 2022, 12:51:39 PM
I lived in Chicago, you aren't likely to find trouble unless you're actively looking for it. More than likely if you broke down you would be left alone. You definitely would get help infinitely faster anywhere in Chicago compared to rural South Dakota.
Nearly 800 people were killed in Chicago just last year. Unless I am going to breakdown with a couple companies of Marines I would much rather be in South Dakota.
Like I said, if you aren't looking for trouble it likely won't find you in Chicago. You seem to be under the impression that crime just descends upon you in Chicago, it doesn't usually anywhere by default. Either way, I'm aware of what the Uniform Crime Report says about Chicago. 1 also pointed out an important fact about murder, most people knew their killer.
Given your statement about South Dakota I'm assuming you haven't been on some of the more rural highways in the state. I'd hate to be broken down the likes of say a US 85 north of I-90 during a snowstorm. It would be a long time before anyone got to you and you might have cell reception to call for help.
Maybe you should get out from behind your barbed wire and see the real world for a change.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 19, 2022, 04:14:26 PM
Maybe you should get out from behind your barbed wire and see the real world for a change.
But then the criminal gangs would descend upon him like a Mad Max movie.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 19, 2022, 04:18:55 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 19, 2022, 04:14:26 PM
Maybe you should get out from behind your barbed wire and see the real world for a change.
But then the criminal gangs would descend upon him like a Mad Max movie.
He can lock himself in the toilet of his Ultimate Road Trip Car™.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 19, 2022, 04:29:08 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 19, 2022, 04:18:55 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 19, 2022, 04:14:26 PM
Maybe you should get out from behind your barbed wire and see the real world for a change.
But then the criminal gangs would descend upon him like a Mad Max movie.
He can lock himself in the toilet of his Ultimate Road Trip Car™.
Too bad Cadillac didn't jump on cornering the car toilet when they had the chance.
Serious question. Is HighwayStar just doing a shtick for attention or is he really that ignorant?
Quote from: brad on February 19, 2022, 04:39:41 PM
Serious question. Is HighwayStar just doing a shtick for attention or is he really that ignorant?
I think those are his true beliefs.
Quote from: 1 on February 19, 2022, 04:41:39 PM
Quote from: brad on February 19, 2022, 04:39:41 PM
Serious question. Is HighwayStar just doing a shtick for attention or is he really that ignorant?
I think those are his true beliefs.
There is no "belief" that Chicago has a crime problem, that is a fact, it has noticeably higher rates of crime than the rest of the country.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 19, 2022, 05:21:59 PM
Quote from: 1 on February 19, 2022, 04:41:39 PM
Quote from: brad on February 19, 2022, 04:39:41 PM
Serious question. Is HighwayStar just doing a shtick for attention or is he really that ignorant?
I think those are his true beliefs.
There is no "belief" that Chicago has a crime problem, that is a fact, it has noticeably higher rates of crime than the rest of the country.
I'm just spit balling here but I think most people (myself included) are keying in the assertion that murderers are just roaming the streets of Chicago looking to pick off random folk passing by.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 19, 2022, 05:29:08 PM
the assertion that murderers are just roaming the streets of Chicago looking to pick off random folk passing by.
In blizzards that shut down the roads.
Quote from: kalvado on February 19, 2022, 01:34:10 PM
One may argue that it is much easier to replenish gas on a highway.
On the other hand, I wonder what is the idling endurance of ICE with half tank compared to climate control only EV with half battery
Certainly depends how many people have ran out of gas on the highway. While emergency crews may bring cans with gas, after a while if there's more cars than gallons of gas, they're going to need to replenish.
For electric vehicles, a generator only needs to power up the vehicle 15 minutes or so to give it enough power to eventually get to a charging station. Ironically the generator will need gas to assist that vehicle. But just like now where where AAA Vehicles will bring gas, as more electric vehicles are on the road, similar AAA vehicles will have generators.
Quote from: brad on February 19, 2022, 04:39:41 PM
Serious question. Is HighwayStar just doing a shtick for attention or is he really that ignorant?
I don't believe much of what he says. It goes back to his opinions of sidewalks. While some people may dislike having sidewalks because they have to shovel snow or maintain them, his belief that no one should even be a pedestrian is highly abnormal.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 20, 2022, 01:22:07 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 19, 2022, 01:34:10 PM
One may argue that it is much easier to replenish gas on a highway.
On the other hand, I wonder what is the idling endurance of ICE with half tank compared to climate control only EV with half battery
Certainly depends how many people have ran out of gas on the highway. While emergency crews may bring cans with gas, after a while if there's more cars than gallons of gas, they're going to need to replenish.
For electric vehicles, a generator only needs to power up the vehicle 15 minutes or so to give it enough power to eventually get to a charging station. Ironically the generator will need gas to assist that vehicle. But just like now where where AAA Vehicles will bring gas, as more electric vehicles are on the road, similar AAA vehicles will have generators.
Even if they didn't have generators at the time, no one was going to die on Lake Shore Drive because their electric car ran out of juice. I get that electric vehicles may not be for everyone - I have only really considered hybrids but never purchased one - but engaging in hyperbolic arguments doesn't really serve any purpose.
Oh and HighwayStar is about 70% troll.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 20, 2022, 08:16:14 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 20, 2022, 01:22:07 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 19, 2022, 01:34:10 PM
One may argue that it is much easier to replenish gas on a highway.
On the other hand, I wonder what is the idling endurance of ICE with half tank compared to climate control only EV with half battery
Certainly depends how many people have ran out of gas on the highway. While emergency crews may bring cans with gas, after a while if there's more cars than gallons of gas, they're going to need to replenish.
For electric vehicles, a generator only needs to power up the vehicle 15 minutes or so to give it enough power to eventually get to a charging station. Ironically the generator will need gas to assist that vehicle. But just like now where where AAA Vehicles will bring gas, as more electric vehicles are on the road, similar AAA vehicles will have generators.
Even if they didn't have generators at the time, no one was going to die on Lake Shore Drive because their electric car ran out of juice. I get that electric vehicles may not be for everyone - I have only really considered hybrids but never purchased one - but engaging in hyperbolic arguments doesn't really serve any purpose.
Oh and HighwayStar is about 70% troll.
I'm thinking more like suburban/rural highways where we have seen massive road closures with motorists stuck on them, such as I-78 in PA or I-95 in Virginia.
I hope the new electric cars don't take a while to charge.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 20, 2022, 08:16:14 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 20, 2022, 01:22:07 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 19, 2022, 01:34:10 PM
One may argue that it is much easier to replenish gas on a highway.
On the other hand, I wonder what is the idling endurance of ICE with half tank compared to climate control only EV with half battery
Certainly depends how many people have ran out of gas on the highway. While emergency crews may bring cans with gas, after a while if there's more cars than gallons of gas, they're going to need to replenish.
For electric vehicles, a generator only needs to power up the vehicle 15 minutes or so to give it enough power to eventually get to a charging station. Ironically the generator will need gas to assist that vehicle. But just like now where where AAA Vehicles will bring gas, as more electric vehicles are on the road, similar AAA vehicles will have generators.
Even if they didn't have generators at the time, no one was going to die on Lake Shore Drive because their electric car ran out of juice. I get that electric vehicles may not be for everyone - I have only really considered hybrids but never purchased one - but engaging in hyperbolic arguments doesn't really serve any purpose.
Oh and HighwayStar is about 70% troll.
How is it "troll" to point out that Chicago has a crime issue and I would rather break down in the countryside?
No, it's trolling to say that sidewalks shouldn't exist, SUVs shouldn't exist, price gouging doesn't exist, McKinley was the original name and not Denali, undesirables (i.e. low income, which is who you think is undesirable rather than actually being undesirable) should be put in freeway medians, and control cities should be signed to remind people that a freeway didn't get completed instead of actually helping people get where they're going.
Except I think you actually believe all this, in which case it isn't trolling, but rather extreme ignorance.
The idea of major cities being gun violence hellholes is an irrational fear spread by conservatives. This is a common enough belief that it's not outlandish, but it's still wrong. Visiting a place and just passing through is safe pretty much anywhere in the United States, if you disregard COVID-19 which isn't what we're talking about right now. Remember that some people live there their entire lives, and most of them are fine. Also what several of us have said before about most victims not being random people on the street.
Most of the places in this country that are held out as scary, dangerous hellholes have actually seen a marked improvement in crime rates since the 1970s (as has all of the country).
I read an online comment from a user who had lived in San Francisco's Tenderloin district since then and his experiences went from occasionally finding bodies at the beginning of his stay there to really not being bothered by much more than panhandlers in that time frame, and yet his neighborhood is still the subject of sensational news coverage about how bad it is.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 20, 2022, 04:02:27 PM
Most of the places in this country that are held out as scary, dangerous hellholes have actually seen a marked improvement in crime rates since the 1970s (as has all of the country).
I read an online comment from a user who had lived in San Francisco's Tenderloin district since then and his experiences went from occasionally finding bodies at the beginning of his stay there to really not being bothered by much more than panhandlers in that time frame, and yet his neighborhood is still the subject of sensational news coverage about how bad it is.
The media has sensationalized the hell out of violent crime that every poll asking people whether homicide rates have gone up or down in the past 50 years always shows people guessing incorrectly, thinking it went up. That has more to do with people being unable to think for themselves.
Quote from: SectorZ on February 20, 2022, 04:40:58 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 20, 2022, 04:02:27 PM
Most of the places in this country that are held out as scary, dangerous hellholes have actually seen a marked improvement in crime rates since the 1970s (as has all of the country).
I read an online comment from a user who had lived in San Francisco's Tenderloin district since then and his experiences went from occasionally finding bodies at the beginning of his stay there to really not being bothered by much more than panhandlers in that time frame, and yet his neighborhood is still the subject of sensational news coverage about how bad it is.
The media has sensationalized the hell out of violent crime that every poll asking people whether homicide rates have gone up or down in the past 50 years always shows people guessing incorrectly, thinking it went up. That has more to do with people being unable to think for themselves.
Whereas the Uniform Crime Report shows a largely downward trend in violent crime.
Quote from: SectorZ on February 20, 2022, 04:40:58 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 20, 2022, 04:02:27 PM
Most of the places in this country that are held out as scary, dangerous hellholes have actually seen a marked improvement in crime rates since the 1970s (as has all of the country).
I read an online comment from a user who had lived in San Francisco's Tenderloin district since then and his experiences went from occasionally finding bodies at the beginning of his stay there to really not being bothered by much more than panhandlers in that time frame, and yet his neighborhood is still the subject of sensational news coverage about how bad it is.
The media has sensationalized the hell out of violent crime that every poll asking people whether homicide rates have gone up or down in the past 50 years always shows people guessing incorrectly, thinking it went up. That has more to do with people being unable to think for themselves.
I go by statistics, not what the media sensationalizes. And I am more than capable of thinking for myself.
I am well aware that homicides have declined relative to their high levels seen in the 70s/80s, mostly due to the crime bust in the 90s/00s, but in the last decade that trend has started to reverse.
Moreover, the "well it used to be worse" response falls flat when you really think about it. Lots of things used to be worse, but that has never stopped us from considering the status quo to be unacceptable as well. Frankly, asking the average person about the crime rate is just typical gaslighting, rather than trying to have an honest discussion about the problem.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 06:52:57 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on February 20, 2022, 04:40:58 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 20, 2022, 04:02:27 PM
Most of the places in this country that are held out as scary, dangerous hellholes have actually seen a marked improvement in crime rates since the 1970s (as has all of the country).
I read an online comment from a user who had lived in San Francisco's Tenderloin district since then and his experiences went from occasionally finding bodies at the beginning of his stay there to really not being bothered by much more than panhandlers in that time frame, and yet his neighborhood is still the subject of sensational news coverage about how bad it is.
The media has sensationalized the hell out of violent crime that every poll asking people whether homicide rates have gone up or down in the past 50 years always shows people guessing incorrectly, thinking it went up. That has more to do with people being unable to think for themselves.
I go by statistics, not what the media sensationalizes. And I am more than capable of thinking for myself.
I am well aware that homicides have declined relative to their high levels seen in the 70s/80s, mostly due to the crime bust in the 90s/00s, but in the last decade that trend has started to reverse.
Moreover, the "well it used to be worse" response falls flat when you really think about it. Lots of things used to be worse, but that has never stopped us from considering the status quo to be unacceptable as well. Frankly, asking the average person about the crime rate is just typical gaslighting, rather than trying to have an honest discussion about the problem.
Time for another split off a split off thread?
Quote from: kalvado on February 20, 2022, 07:15:01 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 06:52:57 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on February 20, 2022, 04:40:58 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 20, 2022, 04:02:27 PM
Most of the places in this country that are held out as scary, dangerous hellholes have actually seen a marked improvement in crime rates since the 1970s (as has all of the country).
I read an online comment from a user who had lived in San Francisco's Tenderloin district since then and his experiences went from occasionally finding bodies at the beginning of his stay there to really not being bothered by much more than panhandlers in that time frame, and yet his neighborhood is still the subject of sensational news coverage about how bad it is.
The media has sensationalized the hell out of violent crime that every poll asking people whether homicide rates have gone up or down in the past 50 years always shows people guessing incorrectly, thinking it went up. That has more to do with people being unable to think for themselves.
I go by statistics, not what the media sensationalizes. And I am more than capable of thinking for myself.
I am well aware that homicides have declined relative to their high levels seen in the 70s/80s, mostly due to the crime bust in the 90s/00s, but in the last decade that trend has started to reverse.
Moreover, the "well it used to be worse" response falls flat when you really think about it. Lots of things used to be worse, but that has never stopped us from considering the status quo to be unacceptable as well. Frankly, asking the average person about the crime rate is just typical gaslighting, rather than trying to have an honest discussion about the problem.
Time for another split off a split off thread?
Even better, delete back to when the EV talk actually stopped.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 20, 2022, 07:23:45 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 20, 2022, 07:15:01 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 06:52:57 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on February 20, 2022, 04:40:58 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 20, 2022, 04:02:27 PM
Most of the places in this country that are held out as scary, dangerous hellholes have actually seen a marked improvement in crime rates since the 1970s (as has all of the country).
I read an online comment from a user who had lived in San Francisco's Tenderloin district since then and his experiences went from occasionally finding bodies at the beginning of his stay there to really not being bothered by much more than panhandlers in that time frame, and yet his neighborhood is still the subject of sensational news coverage about how bad it is.
The media has sensationalized the hell out of violent crime that every poll asking people whether homicide rates have gone up or down in the past 50 years always shows people guessing incorrectly, thinking it went up. That has more to do with people being unable to think for themselves.
I go by statistics, not what the media sensationalizes. And I am more than capable of thinking for myself.
I am well aware that homicides have declined relative to their high levels seen in the 70s/80s, mostly due to the crime bust in the 90s/00s, but in the last decade that trend has started to reverse.
Moreover, the "well it used to be worse" response falls flat when you really think about it. Lots of things used to be worse, but that has never stopped us from considering the status quo to be unacceptable as well. Frankly, asking the average person about the crime rate is just typical gaslighting, rather than trying to have an honest discussion about the problem.
Time for another split off a split off thread?
Even better, delete back to when the EV talk actually stopped.
Second.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 06:52:57 PM
Moreover, the "well it used to be worse" response falls flat when you really think about it. Lots of things used to be worse, but that has never stopped us from considering the status quo to be unacceptable as well.
Now you sound like a Vision Zero proponent. That's the same argument they use.
Quote from: vdeane on February 20, 2022, 07:34:43 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 06:52:57 PM
Moreover, the "well it used to be worse" response falls flat when you really think about it. Lots of things used to be worse, but that has never stopped us from considering the status quo to be unacceptable as well.
Now you sound like a Vision Zero proponent. That's the same argument they use.
The difference is that there is some positive value created by transportation, whereas there is no positive value created by crime.
Sorry. Didn't mean to derail. The Chicago crime comment was not the focus of my post. I mean, everything he said is troll-ish, especially EV comments. If you don't like EV's, that's fine. Don't drive one. But why make false and defensive statements?
Quote from: brad on February 20, 2022, 08:09:35 PM
Sorry. Didn't mean to derail. The Chicago crime comment was not the focus of my post. I mean, everything he said is troll-ish, especially EV comments. If you don't like EV's, that's fine. Don't drive one. But why make false and defensive statements?
Well, you are talking about the forum member who insists I-70 does not enter Baltimore.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 07:35:51 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 20, 2022, 07:34:43 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 06:52:57 PM
Moreover, the "well it used to be worse" response falls flat when you really think about it. Lots of things used to be worse, but that has never stopped us from considering the status quo to be unacceptable as well.
Now you sound like a Vision Zero proponent. That's the same argument they use.
The difference is that there is some positive value created by transportation, whereas there is no positive value created by crime.
Paraguay says hello.
Quote from: Rothman on February 20, 2022, 09:24:43 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 07:35:51 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 20, 2022, 07:34:43 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 06:52:57 PM
Moreover, the "well it used to be worse" response falls flat when you really think about it. Lots of things used to be worse, but that has never stopped us from considering the status quo to be unacceptable as well.
Now you sound like a Vision Zero proponent. That's the same argument they use.
The difference is that there is some positive value created by transportation, whereas there is no positive value created by crime.
Paraguay says hello.
Paraguay is a third world country that is about as comparable to the US as a hot wheels car is to an actual car.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 19, 2022, 08:38:41 AM
So to throw a bone to HighwayStar, I was just reading a review of Mazda's new EV, the MX-30. The review generally praised it but noted one not-so-minor problem: Its EPA-estimated range is only 100 miles, and the review said in practical use (including some highway driving, climate control on, etc.) the actual range is more like 70 miles. That's ridiculous, especially in a vehicle with a starting MSRP of $33,000. 70 miles is nothing. It's easy to drive 70 miles just in local driving.
My understanding is that it is a compliance car, and will only be sold in California.
Mazda, Subuaru and in many cases Toyota are shockingly behind in EV development.
The Hyundai Ionic 5 is a much better new release to reference and is in the same price range.
Small-battery EVs have a place, but that is something like the electric golf cars popular in retirement resorts.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 09:52:23 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 20, 2022, 09:24:43 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 07:35:51 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 20, 2022, 07:34:43 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 06:52:57 PM
Moreover, the "well it used to be worse" response falls flat when you really think about it. Lots of things used to be worse, but that has never stopped us from considering the status quo to be unacceptable as well.
Now you sound like a Vision Zero proponent. That's the same argument they use.
The difference is that there is some positive value created by transportation, whereas there is no positive value created by crime.
Paraguay says hello.
Paraguay is a third world country that is about as comparable to the US as a hot wheels car is to an actual car.
You've moved the goalposts.
Paraguay's GDP was infamously held up by smuggling for decades and therefore still had "positive value" created by crime.
The lack of positive value is a matter of perspective. From those profiting off the crime, there's quite a bit.
Therefore, your assertion is wrong.
Quote from: Rothman on February 21, 2022, 10:27:30 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 09:52:23 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 20, 2022, 09:24:43 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 07:35:51 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 20, 2022, 07:34:43 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 06:52:57 PM
Moreover, the "well it used to be worse" response falls flat when you really think about it. Lots of things used to be worse, but that has never stopped us from considering the status quo to be unacceptable as well.
Now you sound like a Vision Zero proponent. That's the same argument they use.
The difference is that there is some positive value created by transportation, whereas there is no positive value created by crime.
Paraguay says hello.
Paraguay is a third world country that is about as comparable to the US as a hot wheels car is to an actual car.
You've moved the goalposts.
Paraguay's GDP was infamously held up by smuggling for decades and therefore still had "positive value" created by crime.
The lack of positive value is a matter of perspective. From those profiting off the crime, there's quite a bit.
Therefore, your assertion is wrong.
Not really. That same allegedly positive value is countered by all the negative value from the crime. You're arguing the equivalent of Al Capone created positive value because he sponsored soup kitchens and shelters, employed a whole lot of people, and tipped well while ignoring the negative effects of mass murder, extortion, and corruption by the many people he employed. Those who benefited from crime in Paraguay were doing much the same. Keeping an entire country in poverty while a cherished few are living well is not an example of positive value.
Quote from: skluth on February 21, 2022, 11:57:05 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 21, 2022, 10:27:30 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 09:52:23 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 20, 2022, 09:24:43 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 07:35:51 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 20, 2022, 07:34:43 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 06:52:57 PM
Moreover, the "well it used to be worse" response falls flat when you really think about it. Lots of things used to be worse, but that has never stopped us from considering the status quo to be unacceptable as well.
Now you sound like a Vision Zero proponent. That's the same argument they use.
The difference is that there is some positive value created by transportation, whereas there is no positive value created by crime.
Paraguay says hello.
Paraguay is a third world country that is about as comparable to the US as a hot wheels car is to an actual car.
You've moved the goalposts.
Paraguay's GDP was infamously held up by smuggling for decades and therefore still had "positive value" created by crime.
The lack of positive value is a matter of perspective. From those profiting off the crime, there's quite a bit.
Therefore, your assertion is wrong.
Not really. That same allegedly positive value is countered by all the negative value from the crime. You're arguing the equivalent of Al Capone created positive value because he sponsored soup kitchens and shelters, employed a whole lot of people, and tipped well while ignoring the negative effects of mass murder, extortion, and corruption by the many people he employed. Those who benefited from crime in Paraguay were doing much the same. Keeping an entire country in poverty while a cherished few are living well is not an example of positive value.
Of course certain crime can have positive value locally - except for crime victims. Think drugs, for example - this is manufacturing and distribution of expensive goods. Compare that with cigarettes for example
Now those not directly involved may get benefits. If you think, why crypto is surviving?
Quote from: Rothman on February 21, 2022, 10:27:30 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 09:52:23 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 20, 2022, 09:24:43 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 07:35:51 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 20, 2022, 07:34:43 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 06:52:57 PM
Moreover, the "well it used to be worse" response falls flat when you really think about it. Lots of things used to be worse, but that has never stopped us from considering the status quo to be unacceptable as well.
Now you sound like a Vision Zero proponent. That's the same argument they use.
The difference is that there is some positive value created by transportation, whereas there is no positive value created by crime.
Paraguay says hello.
Paraguay is a third world country that is about as comparable to the US as a hot wheels car is to an actual car.
You've moved the goalposts.
Paraguay's GDP was infamously held up by smuggling for decades and therefore still had "positive value" created by crime.
The lack of positive value is a matter of perspective. From those profiting off the crime, there's quite a bit.
Therefore, your assertion is wrong.
No, I am not. GDP is not a reliable measure of a third world country dependent on criminal activity relative to something like the US. You cannot draw conclusions of that. Crime is always a net loss, because even if you generate some positive value on one end, that is lost elsewhere.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 21, 2022, 01:39:12 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 21, 2022, 10:27:30 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 09:52:23 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 20, 2022, 09:24:43 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 07:35:51 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 20, 2022, 07:34:43 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 20, 2022, 06:52:57 PM
Moreover, the "well it used to be worse" response falls flat when you really think about it. Lots of things used to be worse, but that has never stopped us from considering the status quo to be unacceptable as well.
Now you sound like a Vision Zero proponent. That's the same argument they use.
The difference is that there is some positive value created by transportation, whereas there is no positive value created by crime.
Paraguay says hello.
Paraguay is a third world country that is about as comparable to the US as a hot wheels car is to an actual car.
You've moved the goalposts.
Paraguay's GDP was infamously held up by smuggling for decades and therefore still had "positive value" created by crime.
The lack of positive value is a matter of perspective. From those profiting off the crime, there's quite a bit.
Therefore, your assertion is wrong.
No, I am not. GDP is not a reliable measure of a third world country dependent on criminal activity relative to something like the US. You cannot draw conclusions of that. Crime is always a net loss, because even if you generate some positive value on one end, that is lost elsewhere.
That's not the definition of a net loss. You can have an equal gain and equal loss and be net zero. :D
But hey, trolls gotta troll...