AARoads Forum

It is the subject of much debate around here: the Chicken Lane.

There's a Canes here, that frequently has the drive-thru backed up onto northbound South College. It's dangerous, because you either:

a) run up suddenly on stopped cars that aren't immediately visible
b) are in the center lane, and one of the aforementioned vehicles suddenly changes lanes to the left to get out of the line

The speed limit on this road is 40, going to 35 as you go down the hill. Local suggestions have been along the line of removing the break so you can access the place through the frontage road, or accessing the place from one block east, Remington st. The city's answer thus far, has been posting a "CONGESTED AREA AHEAD" sign, slightly south of this GSV image.

This kind of thing happen around you?

GSV: https://goo.gl/maps/4eZ5KbpxNstMXhiu9 (https://goo.gl/maps/4eZ5KbpxNstMXhiu9)

In Adrian, MI, the KFC traffic around dinner time usually spills out onto the right lane of M-52 southbound.  It is a 5 lane road, 2 lanes north, a center turn lane, and 2 lanes south, so there room to get around them.  If you are northbound trying to make a left turn in, you could be sitting in the center turn lane for a while.  I think in general, most drive-thru's have experienced much more traffic since the beginning of COVID.

Relatively common at a few Chick Fil As across the south during the peak. A McDonald's in my old college town did it too. If it's an arterial with enough space it's not THAT big a deal, just an inconvenience. COVID has certainly made things worse

This Cook Out drive-thru in Atlanta (https://goo.gl/maps/jhQ66jYfrdCD68tv8) is notorious for backing up into Northside, especially during late night hours when there are very few other food options.

The Chick-Fil-A drive-thru in Springfield, Virginia (https://goo.gl/maps/e2CVAdxJhzLFhJvG7), is notorious for that, although Street View doesn't show it backed up all the way out onto Backlick Road. In the image, you can see the restaurant itself to the far left near Advance Auto Parts (the drive-thru exit is between Advance and Chick-Fil-A), and the drive-thru entrance is straight ahead of the camera viewpoint (the SUV and the Camry coming from the right are most likely part of the drive-thru line). Several businesses have left that shopping center, and others have expressed an intent to leave, because the drive-thru line so severely interferes with parking.

The Raising Cane's in Charlottesville has been noted to cause traffic problems on US-29, though no Street View imagery of a backup there is available.

In a similar situation that doesn't involve a restaurant, the Mr. Wash Express car wash at the corner of Edsall Road and Van Dorn Street in Alexandria, Virginia, sometimes backs up so much (despite having two queues) that the city police wind up coming out to try to manage the congestion since it's adjacent to an intersection. Arguably too small a piece of property for a place that's so busy.

Finally, while this one doesn't back up out onto the street, it can be almost as bad in some respects: The drive-thru for the KFC/Taco Bell here in Kingstowne always backs up (https://goo.gl/maps/npnBnqzZ2QQSKuCv7) and often blocks access to the other drive-thru for the Burger King located in the same row of stores (see the blue SUV located in the distance beyond the silver Chevy SUV). Drivers can't seem to agree on how to form the drive-thru line when it backs up to, or beyond, the point seen in this Street View image. They've started work to put in a Chick-Fil-A in the same shopping center where the Irish pub used to be (https://goo.gl/maps/PpwVi7hRTG7v244H6). I don't necessarily think the traffic waiting for the drive-thru will be a huge problem, but I think the traffic exiting from the drive-thru is going to cause major problems because the shopping center's exits are poorly-designed. Good thing it's close enough that I'll be able to walk there for my chicken fix.

When the Sonic opened in Latham, NY, locals went nuts and backups were an issue.  I guess Upstaters didn't know Sonic just isn't that special (the Sonics in the Syracuse area are horrible).

Just Sunday night, I was by a Krispy Kreme  on Mavis in Mississauga, Ontario that had a car line wrapping around a large parking lot.  I think it was because it was the only one around that stayed open until 10, while others closed at 8.  I guess Canadians are still nuts about Krispy Kreme; took us a millisecond to know it wasn't worth that kind of wait.

That would be Chick Fil A in a nutshell. Sometimes there's even police there directing traffic. I mean c'mon people it's just fast food.

Too many Dunkin' Donuts in Massachusetts.

Style points when instead of trying to stop it, police are adding to it.

Gas stations: this one (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Global+American+Auto+Care/@42.6848087,-71.1385903,17.85z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e3063416e5e7c3:0xdf17447533ce7156!8m2!3d42.6841243!4d-71.1390933) every day, and this one (https://www.google.com/maps/place/RMP+Auto/@42.5681024,-71.1071253,17.11z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e30b8471663837:0x1e9ee01ae9d9d4d3!8m2!3d42.5680599!4d-71.1090618) on Thursdays.

Not even a drive-thru, but a full restaurant: this seafood place (https://www.google.com/maps/place/New+England+Seafoods/@42.7361239,-71.1312695,17.1z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e306d027e90ae3:0x67c76dc5e4f4538a!8m2!3d42.736157!4d-71.1330381) during Lent on Fridays. They even have someone controlling traffic during PM dinner hours.

Perhaps there will be another thread about drive-thru layout. I'm sure the engineers did their due diligence, but the layout of the Sunnyvale CA CFA seems problematic: https://goo.gl/maps/czcXsQsSbMHhjgef8

There's always a conflict (and usually a person directing traffic) as the drive-thru exit vehicles have to turn left across the incoming driveway.

Having the entrance upstream of the building (further west) instead of downstream (a mirror image) would have avoided that, since there would be no crossing needed. But maybe CFA preferred downstream as customers would see the building then then entrance?

Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2022, 11:54:09 AM
When the Sonic opened in Latham, NY, locals went nuts and backups were an issue.  I guess Upstaters didn't know Sonic just isn't that special (the Sonics in the Syracuse area are horrible).

Just Sunday night, I was by a Krispy Kreme  on Mavis in Mississauga, Ontario that had a car line wrapping around a large parking lot.  I think it was because it was the only one around that stayed open until 10, while others closed at 8.  I guess Canadians are still nuts about Krispy Kreme; took us a millisecond to know it wasn't worth that kind of wait.

Yeah, the Sonic backup was nuts, especially the first couple of days when it went onto the Northway (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.7768113,-73.7606414/42.7565009,-73.7752023/@42.7669458,-73.7722202,14.21z/data=!4m9!4m8!1m5!3m4!1m2!1d-73.7756442!2d42.7570243!3s0x89de0db93800444d:0xf22a8c42740911e5!1m0!3e0) (in fact, I think the line might have gotten even longer than what I showed...).  It took weeks for traffic to fully return to normal.  I'm curious if something similar will happen when CFA opens their first non-airport location right on the other side of the Northway (where the Brick House restaurant (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.751888,-73.7665577,3a,66.6y,71.62h,89.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZPQwV4G0lITU8ISA0Mf-gg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) is now), especially since the traffic pattern at that plaza isn't great.

When the In-N-Out opened here in Aurora, it caused backups onto I-225 because there was so much traffic exiting onto Alameda.  I drove by it wondering if there was an accident before I realized what it was.  It's obviously gotten better since than opening week.  Too many Cali transplants out here I guess.

My local Arby's has this problem.

3 lanes going NB on the main drag, divided highway, and since the DT line is so short, it can, and does occasionally backup into the right lane going NB.  Especially since it's the first fast food you encounter coming out of Pittsburgh here.

Most of the local fast food drive-throughs are accessed from shopping center parking lots, so it's not a big issue here. Local governments here try to limit how many access points are allowed on our main boulevards. When they don't, they often have to use some rather unusual drive-thru designs away from the street like this  (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8170968,-116.5448958,110m/data=!3m1!1e3)or this (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7143057,-116.2330585,54m/data=!3m1!1e3). Much of Palm Desert (https://patch.com/california/palmdesert/ban-drive-thru-restaurants-palm-desert-holds) doesn't even allow drive-thru restaurants. 

My Costco gas station (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8021048,-116.389088,135m/data=!3m1!1e3) does regularly back up into Dinah Shore. It's fairly self-correcting as drivers don't like to wait on the street and will circle around to the other gas station entrance in the parking lot via Shoppers Lane and Carver Place which usually only has at most a couple cars waiting. (Until now, I didn't know Shoppers Lane had a name much less Carver Pl.)

The Culvers around here can back up into the street.  They refer to themselves as America's slowest drive through because they make everything to order, but they actually have a nice system down.

Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on February 22, 2022, 11:27:15 AM
It is the subject of much debate around here: the Chicken Lane.

There's a Canes here, that frequently has the drive-thru backed up onto northbound South College. It's dangerous, because you either:

a) run up suddenly on stopped cars that aren't immediately visible
b) are in the center lane, and one of the aforementioned vehicles suddenly changes lanes to the left to get out of the line

The speed limit on this road is 40, going to 35 as you go down the hill. Local suggestions have been along the line of removing the break so you can access the place through the frontage road, or accessing the place from one block east, Remington st. The city's answer thus far, has been posting a "CONGESTED AREA AHEAD" sign, slightly south of this GSV image.

This kind of thing happen around you?

GSV: https://goo.gl/maps/4eZ5KbpxNstMXhiu9 (https://goo.gl/maps/4eZ5KbpxNstMXhiu9)

Yes, and also with a Cane's. The Cane's location in Athens GA has traffic backing up onto the street throughout the day. Seems like Cane's just needs to open a few more locations, due to the fact that the Athens Cane's attracts customers from all over NE Georgia such as Gainesville, Gwinnett County, etc.

Chick-fil-A gets a lot of traffic as well but they actually try to manage it and avoid it backing up onto streets. Plus there's several locations so not everyone is trying to go to the same one.

Aside from the usual (and in my opinion, overrated) Chick Fil A, I can think of 3 places in the Richmond area where this happens sometimes, especially late night on Friday and Saturday.

Cookout on W. Broad St just inside city limits

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.58017,-77.49159,3a,75.0y,345.55096h,81.3536t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s03y4Ue7V6s-aehBk7_agXA!2e0


Just a block west of there, Krispy Kreme

https://maps.app.goo.gl/n3g2BBBDrogMFqdN6


Wendy's on Williamsburg Rd in eastern Henrico County

https://maps.app.goo.gl/kyzR8394fZDKHa2y5

Quote from: rickmastfan67 on February 22, 2022, 01:04:03 PM
My local Arby's has this problem.

A huge line of people wanting to go to Arby's sounds like the worst problem in this thread so far. :P

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 22, 2022, 11:53:40 AM
The Chick-Fil-A drive-thru in Springfield, Virginia (https://goo.gl/maps/e2CVAdxJhzLFhJvG7), is notorious for that

I'm surprised to see a chickfila in a strip mall like that. I haven't seen that before.

The chickfila near my childhood home was torn down completely and rebuilt due to the high volume of customers. It was obviously rebuilt with drive thru in mind, because it features the double line and plenty of waiting space. Previously, the line would back up all the way out to NC 51, which was impressive considering its entrance isn't directly off that road.

I'm pretty sure it was the busiest chickfila of all at one point. Chickfila at the Arboretum in Charlotte NC, if anyone is interested.

I don't care how hungry I am, nor how good the food might be, but I will not wait in a line that long for any food.

That's a usual occurrence at McDonald's where I work every morning, and there's no way I would sit in a line that long for a Sausage McMuffin.

Quote from: hbelkins on February 22, 2022, 04:52:50 PM
I don't care how hungry I am, nor how good the food might be, but I will not wait in a line that long for any food.

That's a usual occurrence at McDonald's where I work every morning, and there's no way I would sit in a line that long for a Sausage McMuffin.

Neither would I.  But a Culver's patty melt and chocolate custard?  I have and will again.

Basically every Chick-fil-A in Western Washington. Some were built in the worst possible spots almost to purposely induce such lines. The Bellevue, WA location wraps several times onto the I-405 offramp!

Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 22, 2022, 01:01:39 PM
When the In-N-Out opened here in Aurora, it caused backups onto I-225 because there was so much traffic exiting onto Alameda.  I drove by it wondering if there was an accident before I realized what it was.  It's obviously gotten better since than opening week.  Too many Cali transplants out here I guess.

14 hours when it opened, apparently. Just ridiculous.

Quote from: BlueOutback7 on February 22, 2022, 11:57:58 AM
That would be Chick Fil A in a nutshell. Sometimes there's even police there directing traffic. I mean c'mon people it's just fast food.

Yeah, but it's virtue-signaling fast food, see.

This Starbucks:https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0411587,-87.6994028,3a,75y,347.89h,78.65t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sVTcVvFjG0ZPaajnEyEpuww!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DVTcVvFjG0ZPaajnEyEpuww%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D9.795698%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0411587,-87.6994028,3a,75y,347.89h,78.65t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sVTcVvFjG0ZPaajnEyEpuww!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DVTcVvFjG0ZPaajnEyEpuww%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D9.795698%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) is a fustercluck in the morning for the following reasons:

(a) Traffic can't turn right onto Dempster when traveling south on Dodge
(b) Traffic can't turn left onto Dempster when traveling north on Dodge
(c) Westbound traffic on Dempster can't proceed at all
(d) The drive-thru line also blocks the parking lot, meaning you can't even skip the line by going into the store.

 This Dunkin (https://goo.gl/maps/arbhZ9qP9u1vao5s8) is notorious for it any time between 7 and 9 AM on weekdays and till 10 AM on weekends

Seeing a lot of this lately, and I think its getting worse. Too many places don't have their dining room open for whatever reason and so everyone is stuck in the drive through.

The worst I ever saw was in the first few months of COVID, saw a Chick Fil A with a line that wrapped around the building and trapped the first layer of cars in before exiting out onto a side street and going another block.

Quote from: fillup420 on February 22, 2022, 04:43:55 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 22, 2022, 11:53:40 AM
The Chick-Fil-A drive-thru in Springfield, Virginia (https://goo.gl/maps/e2CVAdxJhzLFhJvG7), is notorious for that

I'm surprised to see a chickfila in a strip mall like that. I haven't seen that before.

There's one in the Willow Lawn shopping center just down the street from the Cookout and Krispy Kreme I mentioned a couple posts back...

https://maps.app.goo.gl/AM1hsadSUuTnPTeH6

... which is literally right across Broad St from a standalone one

https://maps.app.goo.gl/i7TRFQEJadCArjuB9

And both are usually busy.

Quote from: Bruce on February 22, 2022, 05:24:49 PM
Basically every Chick-fil-A in Western Washington. Some were built in the worst possible spots almost to purposely induce such lines. The Bellevue, WA location wraps several times onto the I-405 offramp!

Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 22, 2022, 01:01:39 PM
When the In-N-Out opened here in Aurora, it caused backups onto I-225 because there was so much traffic exiting onto Alameda.  I drove by it wondering if there was an accident before I realized what it was.  It's obviously gotten better since than opening week.  Too many Cali transplants out here I guess.

14 hours when it opened, apparently. Just ridiculous.

Daaaammmnnnn that is absolutely ridiculous. That's up there with the craziness at Popeyes when the chicken sandwich first came out. Maybe even more so!

Popeyes in Green Bay had a 1/4 mile backup when it opened in 2020.  Not sure who bad the backups will be when the first area Chick-fil-A opens in suburban Ashwaubenon in a couple weeks.

Quote from: plain on February 22, 2022, 01:50:47 PM
Aside from the usual (and in my opinion, overrated) Chick Fil A ...

The Chick Fil A's here often back up too, especially the Ridge Road one, but less so now that they have a third location in the area.

I agree that their regular lunch/dinner menu is overrated, but I actually think their breakfast is underrated. If I had to pick a meal to go there, I'd easily pick breakfast. Not only is it better, you avoid the crowds and hardly ever have to wait in much of a line.

Quote from: HighwayStar on February 22, 2022, 06:22:54 PM
Seeing a lot of this lately, and I think its getting worse. Too many places don't have their dining room open for whatever reason and so everyone is stuck in the drive through.

The worst I ever saw was in the first few months of COVID, saw a Chick Fil A with a line that wrapped around the building and trapped the first layer of cars in before exiting out onto a side street and going another block.

Plenty of places here have dining rooms open AND have the lines at the drive thru. I think people's preferences have changed.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 22, 2022, 09:24:11 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on February 22, 2022, 06:22:54 PM
Seeing a lot of this lately, and I think its getting worse. Too many places don't have their dining room open for whatever reason and so everyone is stuck in the drive through.

The worst I ever saw was in the first few months of COVID, saw a Chick Fil A with a line that wrapped around the building and trapped the first layer of cars in before exiting out onto a side street and going another block.

Plenty of places here have dining rooms open AND have the lines at the drive thru. I think people's preferences have changed.

There was that period of time where lobbies reopened for takeout but seating remained closed, which made going inside pointless for most people who tried and they probably (for now) don't want to bother with it.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 22, 2022, 09:24:11 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on February 22, 2022, 06:22:54 PM
Seeing a lot of this lately, and I think its getting worse. Too many places don't have their dining room open for whatever reason and so everyone is stuck in the drive through.

The worst I ever saw was in the first few months of COVID, saw a Chick Fil A with a line that wrapped around the building and trapped the first layer of cars in before exiting out onto a side street and going another block.

Plenty of places here have dining rooms open AND have the lines at the drive thru. I think people's preferences have changed.

Unfortunately that does seem to be the case.  DiBella's used to have people go right up to a sub maker, give their order, have their sub made right in front of them, get handed it, and walk to the checkout.  It worked well.  The only waiting was the line for the next available sub maker, if it was busy.  Since the pandemic began, however, now they require people to take a number, give their order to someone who writes it down and puts it in the queue, pay (verbally telling the cashier what you ordered), and then wait for your number to be called.  This system prioritizes online and phone orders over in-restaurant ones, and the wait is a lot longer than it used to be.  I thought it was just a pandemic safety measure, but they took down the plexiglass sometime over the last month, so clearly it has more staying power than I thought.

When this happens at drive-thrus, the drive-thru restaurant should raise its prices until customer queues no longer back up onto public roads.

It's called congestion pricing.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 22, 2022, 09:24:11 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on February 22, 2022, 06:22:54 PM
Seeing a lot of this lately, and I think its getting worse. Too many places don't have their dining room open for whatever reason and so everyone is stuck in the drive through.

The worst I ever saw was in the first few months of COVID, saw a Chick Fil A with a line that wrapped around the building and trapped the first layer of cars in before exiting out onto a side street and going another block.

Plenty of places here have dining rooms open AND have the lines at the drive thru. I think people's preferences have changed.

No, if you have many dining rooms closed that will cause this type of congestion. It does not matter if half of them remain open, the overall effect is still to reduce capacity.
Moreover, the underlying driver of both is slower, poorer quality service driven by a lack of help. Some places are slow because of it, others have their dining rooms closed, and many are suffering both effects.
Pretty sure people did not suddenly prefer cold food in a soggy bag to dining in overnight.

Here in So Cal a Cane's opened nearby last April.  The lines were so long, they backed up on to Hawthorne Blvd (CA SR 107), a major arterial street.  The super-long lines and backups went on for months.  More recently, the lines have not been bad at all, and they do not back up into the street anymore.  The lure of Cane's? It was a bright new shiny object that attracted people who were eager for a change of pace.  We have plenty of fast food choices around here.

My local version of this involves four different establishments adjacent to Bass Pro Shops. Raising Cane's, Chick-Fil-A, Starbucks, and McDonalds have at one point or another, caused backups on to west-bound Sunshine Street, a major east-west arterial for the city. Below is a diagram of the signed overflow route, used to prevent Sunshine from backing up by allowing customers to enter through the back side of Chick-Fil-A, McDonalds, or Starbucks.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51898827299_d8d6c89dd4_c.jpg)
I'll snap a picture of the signs soon-ish, driving during tomorrow/Thursday's icy weather doesn't sound appealing.

Cane's lines still occasionally wrap around the building, but during the first 3 weeks of business (circa Nov. 2020), the police had to assist in directing the heavy traffic, which regularly backed up on to Sunshine. The Cane's line setup is also potentially dangerous. Here is a diagram of the convoluted setup:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51898486991_43c0eac0a1_c.jpg)


People in this town really like to clog their arteries, then proceed to, you guessed it, clog their arteries...

The In'n'Out on Shaw Avenue westbound approaching CA 99 (in Fresno) always backups a couple yards into traffic daily.

Quote from: HighwayStar on February 22, 2022, 10:06:55 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 22, 2022, 09:24:11 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on February 22, 2022, 06:22:54 PM
Seeing a lot of this lately, and I think its getting worse. Too many places don't have their dining room open for whatever reason and so everyone is stuck in the drive through.

The worst I ever saw was in the first few months of COVID, saw a Chick Fil A with a line that wrapped around the building and trapped the first layer of cars in before exiting out onto a side street and going another block.

Plenty of places here have dining rooms open AND have the lines at the drive thru. I think people's preferences have changed.

No, if you have many dining rooms closed that will cause this type of congestion. It does not matter if half of them remain open, the overall effect is still to reduce capacity.
Moreover, the underlying driver of both is slower, poorer quality service driven by a lack of help. Some places are slow because of it, others have their dining rooms closed, and many are suffering both effects.
Pretty sure people did not suddenly prefer cold food in a soggy bag to dining in overnight.

Per usual, you don't know what you are talking about.  Where I live, ALL restaurants are open.  Every fast food place has their dining room completely open. and ready for service  At the Culvers I mentioned, I sat in a half-full dining room last week while there was a long line of cars waiting to place orders and pick up food.  And they are pretty good at it because when I have done the same, my food has neither been cold nor soggy.

So yes, I feel pretty confident in saying that customer preferences have changed.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 23, 2022, 08:05:57 AM

Quote from: HighwayStar on February 22, 2022, 10:06:55 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 22, 2022, 09:24:11 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on February 22, 2022, 06:22:54 PM
Seeing a lot of this lately, and I think its getting worse. Too many places don't have their dining room open for whatever reason and so everyone is stuck in the drive through.

The worst I ever saw was in the first few months of COVID, saw a Chick Fil A with a line that wrapped around the building and trapped the first layer of cars in before exiting out onto a side street and going another block.

Plenty of places here have dining rooms open AND have the lines at the drive thru. I think people's preferences have changed.

No, if you have many dining rooms closed that will cause this type of congestion. It does not matter if half of them remain open, the overall effect is still to reduce capacity.
Moreover, the underlying driver of both is slower, poorer quality service driven by a lack of help. Some places are slow because of it, others have their dining rooms closed, and many are suffering both effects.
Pretty sure people did not suddenly prefer cold food in a soggy bag to dining in overnight.

Per usual, you don't know what you are talking about.  Where I live, ALL restaurants are open.  Every fast food place has their dining room completely open. and ready for service  At the Culvers I mentioned, I sat in a half-full dining room last week while there was a long line of cars waiting to place orders and pick up food.  And they are pretty good at it because when I have done the same, my food has neither been cold nor soggy.

So yes, I feel pretty confident in saying that customer preferences have changed.

In our area, even well prior to the pandemic the drive-thru lines were often insanely long, at least in some locations, to the point where you would get your food much more quickly if you'd simply parked, gone inside, ordered "to go," and taken your food back out to the car and been on your way. The KFC/Taco Bell seen in a Street View link in an earlier post of mine in this thread was an excellent example of such a location–I mentioned it on this forum in 2013 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=10483.msg248584#msg248584). I suspect, but do not know, that many of the people using the drive-thru despite the long lines are parents with small children in the car who view it as too much of a nuisance to get the kids out of the car to go inside and order "to go" or who are unwilling to leave the kids in the locked car while doing so. I suppose I can understand their approach in either instance even if I somewhat roll my eyes overall.

I do wonder how many of the people who spend lengthy periods of time idling while waiting on line for drive-thru service are the same people who constantly complain about the high price of gas. (There's no law that says you can't turn off your car while you wait, but very few people seem to do that other than people whose cars have auto idle stop or–in what amounts to the same thing in practical terms–people who drive hybrids that run solely on electricity in that sort of situation.)

Quote from: plain on February 22, 2022, 01:50:47 PM
Aside from the usual (and in my opinion, overrated) Chick Fil A, I can think of 3 places in the Richmond area where this happens sometimes, especially late night on Friday and Saturday.

Cookout on W. Broad St just inside city limits

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.58017,-77.49159,3a,75.0y,345.55096h,81.3536t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s03y4Ue7V6s-aehBk7_agXA!2e0


Just a block west of there, Krispy Kreme

https://maps.app.goo.gl/n3g2BBBDrogMFqdN6


Wendy's on Williamsburg Rd in eastern Henrico County

https://maps.app.goo.gl/kyzR8394fZDKHa2y5

The Cook Out on Midlothian Turnpike has the same problem. There is also a car wash next to it that tends to back up onto the road when it's busy (e.g. if it's snowed recently).

Quote from: ozarkman417 on February 22, 2022, 11:07:38 PM
Cane's lines still occasionally wrap around the building, but during the first 3 weeks of business (circa Nov. 2020), the police had to assist in directing the heavy traffic, which regularly backed up on to Sunshine. The Cane's line setup is also potentially dangerous. Here is a diagram of the convoluted setup:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51898486991_43c0eac0a1_c.jpg)


People in this town really like to clog their arteries, then proceed to, you guessed it, clog their arteries...

Most fast food places here in Louisville are still drive thru only. I suspect that some will never reopen their dining rooms. (Fine by me).

Your diagram is often used at fast food places around Louisville. My favorite is this Chick-Fil-A. You enter the drive-thru from the right in right out on Ten Pin Lane (not Shelbyville Rd that entrance is for cheaters lol). You snake through the first parking lot, then you are put into a queue that circles the entire building. Then enter the two ordering lanes that circle the building again. So you end up circling the building twice. Because of their bollards, it is impossible to just enter the ordering lanes directly. So even when it is not busy, you must complete the circle.

https://goo.gl/maps/Vi2Y2HYHXjVfYdYQ9

This Dunkin' in Dover NH has a rather ineffective sign. Of course, people still stop in the street.

https://goo.gl/maps/LTgsMWm76wnLm77y8

This bagel shop in Reading, MA has the same issue. When MassDOT was putting MA 28 on a diet through town, the combination of work zone traffic and the weekend crowds there made it almost impossible to get through there. There is usually a police officer directing traffic and in fact it's so bad, that there are two lines. No indoor dining makes things worse.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5172897,-71.1034814,3a,75y,80.96h,82.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKGq2tvtqixPJQtn3C4aAhw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Quote from: CardInLex on February 23, 2022, 09:34:24 AM

Quote from: ozarkman417 on February 22, 2022, 11:07:38 PM
Cane's lines still occasionally wrap around the building, but during the first 3 weeks of business (circa Nov. 2020), the police had to assist in directing the heavy traffic, which regularly backed up on to Sunshine. The Cane's line setup is also potentially dangerous. Here is a diagram of the convoluted setup:

(diagram omitted to reduce image duplication in the thread)


People in this town really like to clog their arteries, then proceed to, you guessed it, clog their arteries...

Most fast food places here in Louisville are still drive thru only. I suspect that some will never reopen their dining rooms. (Fine by me).

Your diagram is often used at fast food places around Louisville. My favorite is this Chick-Fil-A. You enter the drive-thru from the right in right out on Ten Pin Lane (not Shelbyville Rd that entrance is for cheaters lol). You snake through the first parking lot, then you are put into a queue that circles the entire building. Then enter the two ordering lanes that circle the building again. So you end up circling the building twice. Because of their bollards, it is impossible to just enter the ordering lanes directly. So even when it is not busy, you must complete the circle.

https://goo.gl/maps/Vi2Y2HYHXjVfYdYQ9

I've seen that at other Chick-Fil-A locations as well. The one near the Auto Train in Sanford, Florida (https://www.google.com/maps/@28.8123084,-81.3313893,198m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1), uses a similar system: You enter off Rinehart Road and make a right, loop around the parking lot, and form two lines to the ordering points, then merge into a single line to the pickup windows. We've never used the drive-thru there–we always park and go inside, especially because we usually stop there for breakfast after 17 hours on the train such that we just want to get up and stretch our legs for a bit–but I've never heard horns honking due to the traffic exiting the pickup lane having to cross the path of the queuing vehicles.

Also, because no post with Google Map links would be complete without a link to a location in the Center of the Known Universe (aka North Carolina), here's a Chick-Fil-A in Lumberton that uses a similar system (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.6665953,-79.0062048,74m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1) except the exiting traffic makes a right turn across the drive-thru queuing lanes and all three lanes at that spot have a stop bar. (Again, we stopped and went inside at that location because we wanted a break from being in the car.)

What I find interesting about the Chick-Fil-A two-line ordering point coupled with a single-line pickup point is that it doesn't seem to cause order mixups. That is, it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect that there will be times when the cars leaving the ordering point don't necessarily alternate between lanes (perhaps one person had a much bigger order that took longer to place, perhaps one driver was an asshole who refused to take turns, who knows), but I don't generally hear anything about the wrong order being given to the wrong customer at the drive-thru. I'm sure it must happen, and given how some people seem to have a severe hatred of Chick-Fil-A I'd expect them to go on social media to bleat about anything negative to do with the chain, but it's not something I've heard.

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 23, 2022, 10:58:20 AM
given how some people seem to have a severe hatred of Chick-Fil-A I'd expect them to go on social media to bleat about anything negative to do with the chain

The people who hate the chain (I'm one of them) never go there at all, so they would never experience this.

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 23, 2022, 10:58:20 AM
Also, because no post with Google Map links would be complete without a link to a location in the Center of the Known Universe (aka North Carolina), here's a Chick-Fil-A in Lumberton that uses a similar system (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.6665953,-79.0062048,74m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1) ...

:-D :-D

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 23, 2022, 10:58:20 AM
What I find interesting about the Chick-Fil-A two-line ordering point coupled with a single-line pickup point is that it doesn't seem to cause order mixups. That is, it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect that there will be times when the cars leaving the ordering point don't necessarily alternate between lanes (perhaps one person had a much bigger order that took longer to place, perhaps one driver was an asshole who refused to take turns, who knows), but I don't generally hear anything about the wrong order being given to the wrong customer at the drive-thru. I'm sure it must happen, and given how some people seem to have a severe hatred of Chick-Fil-A I'd expect them to go on social media to bleat about anything negative to do with the chain, but it's not something I've heard.

One thing Chick Fil A does that other fast food restaurants don't, at least every time I've been there, is ask for a name on the order. I'm not sure if that's just a "customer service" gesture, similar to saying "my pleasure" after every thank you, or if it's somehow used to keep the orders straight internally.

And come to think of it...
My last visit to Chick Fil A was to the new one in Irondequoit, NY (you can see it under construction here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1966537,-77.5847618,3a,90y,242.21h,78.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svrt9Fvfdc_4JLHtYo5YTow!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)), and that one has a setup I've never seen before: instead of merging and pulling up to a window to pick up your order, both lanes continue and you pull up under a roof, and your order gets brought out to you by the server through a set of double swing doors. So they could theoretically bring out multiple orders at once if there's a car in each lane (I was there in the morning, so the right lane was closed). I noticed on the sticker on the bag, in addition to my name, there was a description of my car in very large print. Now I wish I'd kept it, so I could share a picture of it here... the point being, of course, that they use the description of the car to help keep the orders straight. I haven't noticed if this is done at the restaurants with a normal pick up window, but I imagine it probably is - and I'll certainly think to notice it next time.

Quote from: webny99 on February 23, 2022, 11:30:26 AM

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 23, 2022, 10:58:20 AM
Also, because no post with Google Map links would be complete without a link to a location in the Center of the Known Universe (aka North Carolina), here's a Chick-Fil-A in Lumberton that uses a similar system (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.6665953,-79.0062048,74m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1) ...

:-D :-D

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 23, 2022, 10:58:20 AM
What I find interesting about the Chick-Fil-A two-line ordering point coupled with a single-line pickup point is that it doesn't seem to cause order mixups. That is, it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect that there will be times when the cars leaving the ordering point don't necessarily alternate between lanes (perhaps one person had a much bigger order that took longer to place, perhaps one driver was an asshole who refused to take turns, who knows), but I don't generally hear anything about the wrong order being given to the wrong customer at the drive-thru. I'm sure it must happen, and given how some people seem to have a severe hatred of Chick-Fil-A I'd expect them to go on social media to bleat about anything negative to do with the chain, but it's not something I've heard.

One thing Chick Fil A does that other fast food restaurants don't, at least every time I've been there, is ask for a name on the order. I'm not sure if that's just a "customer service" gesture, similar to saying "my pleasure" after every thank you, or if it's somehow used to keep the orders straight internally.

And come to think of it...
My last visit to Chick Fil A was to the new one in Irondequoit, NY (you can see it under construction here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1966537,-77.5847618,3a,90y,242.21h,78.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svrt9Fvfdc_4JLHtYo5YTow!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)), and that one has a setup I've never seen before: instead of merging and pulling up to a window to pick up your order, both lanes continue and you pull up under a roof, and your order gets brought out to you by the server through a set of double swing doors. So they could theoretically bring out multiple orders at once if there's a car in each lane (I was there in the morning, so the right lane was closed). I noticed on the sticker on the bag, in addition to my name, there was a description of my car in very large print. Now I wish I'd kept it, so I could share a picture of it here... the point being, of course, that they use the description of the car to help keep the orders straight. I haven't noticed if this is done at the restaurants with a normal pick up window, but I imagine it probably is - and I'll certainly think to notice it next time.

I love chick Fil A and make a point to eat there as much as I can, but the last one I went to was bizarre in that the dining room had been half roped off and signed as a "staff area" supposedly to support the drive through options.

What I don't like about this trend is it seems dangerously trending to getting rid of dine in as a cost cutting measure.

Birdcall >>>>>> Chick-Fil-A.  Too bad only in Arizona and Colorado currently.  And I feel much better spending my money there.

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 23, 2022, 10:58:20 AMWhat I find interesting about the Chick-Fil-A two-line ordering point coupled with a single-line pickup point is that it doesn't seem to cause order mixups. That is, it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect that there will be times when the cars leaving the ordering point don't necessarily alternate between lanes (perhaps one person had a much bigger order that took longer to place, perhaps one driver was an asshole who refused to take turns, who knows), but I don't generally hear anything about the wrong order being given to the wrong customer at the drive-thru.

Most of the McDonalds near me have dual ordering points in the drive-thru as well, and it sorts itself out when you pull up to pay.  I don't know if there's any kind of communication between the first and second window when the cars aren't in the same order as the orders, but I've never left with someone else's order, either.

Quote from: 1 on February 23, 2022, 11:02:27 AM

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 23, 2022, 10:58:20 AM
given how some people seem to have a severe hatred of Chick-Fil-A I'd expect them to go on social media to bleat about anything negative to do with the chain

The people who hate the chain (I'm one of them) never go there at all, so they would never experience this.

In my observation, that wouldn't matter: People like to rant about things and if they can find something they deem negative about a place or thing they don't like, they will cite it as somehow "proving" their opinion that said place is bad. I can think of someone on this forum (not you) who uses that thought process in various discussions, though I won't name usernames.

---

Quote from: abefroman329 on February 23, 2022, 11:56:03 AM

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 23, 2022, 10:58:20 AMWhat I find interesting about the Chick-Fil-A two-line ordering point coupled with a single-line pickup point is that it doesn't seem to cause order mixups. That is, it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect that there will be times when the cars leaving the ordering point don't necessarily alternate between lanes (perhaps one person had a much bigger order that took longer to place, perhaps one driver was an asshole who refused to take turns, who knows), but I don't generally hear anything about the wrong order being given to the wrong customer at the drive-thru.

Most of the McDonalds near me have dual ordering points in the drive-thru as well, and it sorts itself out when you pull up to pay.  I don't know if there's any kind of communication between the first and second window when the cars aren't in the same order as the orders, but I've never left with someone else's order, either.

I'm unlikely ever to find out because I don't use drive-thrus other than in the very rare circumstance when all I want is a soda.

Quote from: webny99 on February 23, 2022, 11:30:26 AM
My last visit to Chick Fil A was to the new one in Irondequoit, NY (you can see it under construction here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1966537,-77.5847618,3a,90y,242.21h,78.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svrt9Fvfdc_4JLHtYo5YTow!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)), and that one has a setup I've never seen before: instead of merging and pulling up to a window to pick up your order, both lanes continue and you pull up under a roof, and your order gets brought out to you by the server through a set of double swing doors. So they could theoretically bring out multiple orders at once if there's a car in each lane (I was there in the morning, so the right lane was closed). I noticed on the sticker on the bag, in addition to my name, there was a description of my car in very large print. Now I wish I'd kept it, so I could share a picture of it here... the point being, of course, that they use the description of the car to help keep the orders straight. I haven't noticed if this is done at the restaurants with a normal pick up window, but I imagine it probably is - and I'll certainly think to notice it next time.

I once stopped at a new Chick-Fil-A in Wilson NC (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.764133,-78.0092157,3a,41.1y,293.52h,88.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sT03szHOy7M9D_31ogP_Cbg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) while passing thru on I-95, and it had the same "delivery" setup you note (and on top of that, this one has a separate tent setup for payment).  Which was great in that orders can be brought out as soon as they're ready, compared to the usual drive-thru setup where your order could be ready already, but it doesn't matter if the car in front of you is still waiting on something.

(Don't worry - as 1995hoo noted, I too made sure to embed Streetview due to the illustrious location!)

EDITED TO ADD: I'm also a fan of places that let you order ahead thru the app and bypass a long drive-thru line that way (Dunkin & Chick-Fil-A are 2 places I do this at).  At Dunkin I'll usually order "walk-in" and typically my order is already ready when I arrive, and at Chick-Fil-A there's usually designated parking spots for "curbside" orders.

Quote from: abefroman329 on February 23, 2022, 11:56:03 AM

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 23, 2022, 10:58:20 AMWhat I find interesting about the Chick-Fil-A two-line ordering point coupled with a single-line pickup point is that it doesn't seem to cause order mixups. That is, it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect that there will be times when the cars leaving the ordering point don't necessarily alternate between lanes (perhaps one person had a much bigger order that took longer to place, perhaps one driver was an asshole who refused to take turns, who knows), but I don't generally hear anything about the wrong order being given to the wrong customer at the drive-thru.

Most of the McDonalds near me have dual ordering points in the drive-thru as well, and it sorts itself out when you pull up to pay.  I don't know if there's any kind of communication between the first and second window when the cars aren't in the same order as the orders, but I've never left with someone else's order, either.

I used to work at mcdonalds, and was the 'first window' guy. The sorting takes place at the first window. I'm watching a camera and noting what car ordered what in my head. When you get to the window, i'll ask something about your order 'you had the no pickles, extra onions?' if i'm not sure, to make sure i'm charging the right car. by the time you get to the second window, everything's in proper order, unless the 'second window' guy hands you the wrong bag, but they're generally placed in order.

Quote from: jmacswimmer on February 23, 2022, 11:58:22 AM
....

EDITED TO ADD: I'm also a fan of places that let you order ahead thru the app and bypass a long drive-thru line that way (Dunkin & Chick-Fil-A are 2 places I do this at).  At Dunkin I'll usually order "walk-in" and typically my order is already ready when I arrive, and at Chick-Fil-A there's usually designated parking spots for "curbside" orders.

When I worked downtown and commuted on the Metrorail, I found the Starbucks app really useful for that purpose–I'd order my coffee (and sometimes a breakfast sandwich) when the train reached the stop before mine so that my order would be ready by the time I got there. The line was always insanely long, so being able to skip the line and then head across the street to the office was very nice. Only annoyance is that the app doesn't necessarily tell you if they run out of a particular food offering.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 23, 2022, 11:54:23 AM
Birdcall >>>>>> Chick-Fil-A.  Too bad only in Arizona and Colorado currently.  And I feel much better spending my money there.

Never had it

Nom nom nom.

(https://i.postimg.cc/jd7nsSPL/Birdcall.png)

Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 23, 2022, 03:57:31 PM
Nom nom nom.

(https://i.postimg.cc/jd7nsSPL/Birdcall.png)

Food looks fine, the restaurant interiors leave something to be desired.

Never actually been in one.

Quote from: Ned Weasel on February 22, 2022, 09:56:25 PM
When this happens at drive-thrus, the drive-thru restaurant should raise its prices until customer queues no longer back up onto public roads.

It's called congestion pricing.

That will never happen; the restaurant doesn't give a shit about whether their customers are in everyone's way.

Better option: the cops go down the line issuing everyone in the public road a ticket for obstructing traffic.

Here's a new Chick-Fil-A in northeastern Ohio that's being oriented in what appears to be backwards, but designed that way to accommodate the expected drive-thru traffic and stack-up, hopefully avoiding the on-street backlog.

https://www.wfmj.com/story/45933676/austintown-zoning-there-is-no-mistake-with-new-chickfila-design?fbclid=IwAR0Z-k6Wyb4LdRL0gaSjVZ9_gNzCIB3DlhzQHRn_j8kXjUNnEwly5cJRJus

Quote from: CardInLex on February 23, 2022, 09:34:24 AM
Most fast food places here in Louisville are still drive thru only. I suspect that some will never reopen their dining rooms. (Fine by me).

We're finally getting some opened inside here in the Pittsburgh area for dine-in.

McDonald's was the first last year, but they've had a few times where they closed the inside for awhile again, and then reopened.  But as of today, they are open inside.

Taco Bell was the next to fully reopen inside, however, their hours aren't constant.  I've gone there once @ 12:30PM, and the inside is closed, but hitting them up another day at 5:30PM and they're open inside.  It's been hit and miss, but they've been getting my business as of late as long as they're open inside, as I rather be able to stretch my legs while sitting down and eating instead of having them cramped inside of the car.

Wendy's has (well, at least the one I can check) is 'partially' open inside.  You can go in and order, but you can't sit and eat inside yet.

Arby's is still drive-thru only.  However, I did run across one that was open inside in the South Hills of Pittsburgh one day, unlike my local one.  My local one also has the worst hours too.  They had been only open till 8PM for quite some time (c19 hours), but only recently, changed to 9PM (compared to Taco Bell being normally open till 11PM or later in the drive-thru just across the street).  This is a location that used to be open till 1AM (drive-thru) in the past.  Plus, my local Arby's HAD been the #1 store in Pittsburgh in sales.  Can't see that being the case anymore with their messed up hours, and sometimes slow service as of late.

Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 22, 2022, 02:15:30 PM

Quote from: rickmastfan67 on February 22, 2022, 01:04:03 PM
My local Arby's has this problem.

A huge line of people wanting to go to Arby's sounds like the worst problem in this thread so far. :P

Well, with the dine-in closed, and only enough space for 7-8 cars from the ordering placement to the road, it can back up easily.  Plus it doesn't help when sometimes the crew wants to work on only 1-2 orders at a time, and refuse to take a new order, allowing people to backup to the main road, while leaving the back of the loop around the building empty to the pickup window.

Quote from: coldshoulder on February 23, 2022, 07:38:23 PM
Here's a new Chick-Fil-A in northeastern Ohio that's being oriented in what appears to be backwards, but designed that way to accommodate the expected drive-thru traffic and stack-up, hopefully avoiding the on-street backlog.

https://www.wfmj.com/story/45933676/austintown-zoning-there-is-no-mistake-with-new-chickfila-design?fbclid=IwAR0Z-k6Wyb4LdRL0gaSjVZ9_gNzCIB3DlhzQHRn_j8kXjUNnEwly5cJRJus

The story would've been much better if they briefly showed the site plan for the building.  They talked with the zoning inspector, so the plans should've been available.

At the end of the story, it says you can visit their website for more information.  Which is the link above.  Which is just the video and typed script of what was on the video. No new information, like the site plan, is provided.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 23, 2022, 11:54:23 AM
Birdcall >>>>>> Chick-Fil-A.  Too bad only in Arizona and Colorado currently.  And I feel much better spending my money there.

Because you thoroughly researched their financial statements and spending documents of their higher level employees and officials?  Or simply because there's been no mainstream, clickbait or social media stories about how they spend their money?

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 23, 2022, 11:48:23 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 23, 2022, 11:54:23 AM
Birdcall >>>>>> Chick-Fil-A.  Too bad only in Arizona and Colorado currently.  And I feel much better spending my money there.

Because you thoroughly researched their financial statements and spending documents of their higher level employees and officials?  Or simply because there's been no mainstream, clickbait or social media stories about how they spend their money?

Let's try to keep politics out of this, ok?

Quote from: jmacswimmer on February 23, 2022, 11:58:22 AM
EDITED TO ADD: I'm also a fan of places that let you order ahead thru the app and bypass a long drive-thru line that way (Dunkin & Chick-Fil-A are 2 places I do this at).

I do this all the time at a nearby Dunkin.  I've had occasions where it was the same car waiting at the drive thru window when I walked in to grab my order and and got back in my car.

As for the OP, there are two that come to mind.  First is the Starbucks at the corner of Snelling & Marshall in St. Paul, MN...this one would routinely back up traffic on Marshall and even sometimes spill onto Snelling.  They have since permanently closed their drive thru window.

The second is the Chik-Fil-A (notice a trend here?) at 14th & Maryland NE in DC.  Often spills out onto Maryland Ave and occasionally blocks the intersection.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 23, 2022, 11:48:23 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 23, 2022, 11:54:23 AM
Birdcall >>>>>> Chick-Fil-A.  Too bad only in Arizona and Colorado currently.  And I feel much better spending my money there.

Because you thoroughly researched their financial statements and spending documents of their higher level employees and officials?  Or simply because there's been no mainstream, clickbait or social media stories about how they spend their money?

I know that they no longer give their money to groups to which I vehemently disagree. I also know that they did donate that money about ten years ago.  Dan Cathy was in charge then and he's in charge now. He has made no comments that I have seen that make me believe he has changed his stance.  That's a good enough reason for me not to go there when I have other choices that I like as well or better. Obviously they don't need my business anyway since they're listed so often here as extending out into streets. I will just continue to allocate my resources differently. (Hopefully that's politics-free enough for the mods. I tried to choose words carefully.)

I don't hate CFA, but neither am I a huge fanboy. I find the food to be pricey for the amount you get, and I've actually gotten to where I like Zaxby's or Cane's better -- and Lee's Famous Recipe rules over all.

Quote from: ozarkman417 on February 22, 2022, 11:07:38 PM
I'll snap a picture of the signs soon-ish, driving during tomorrow/Thursday's icy weather doesn't sound appealing.

It appears that I do not have a photo of the signs, though I could have sworn I took one. I am very unorganized with my photos, so who knows.
The signs of the overflow route no longer exist. Instead of having a picture of my own, here is the local news article that contains a video of:
-An example of traffic backed up on to Sunshine
-The signs, as well as a portable VMS telling drivers to not stop on Sunshine.
link (https://www.ky3.com/2021/04/29/city-of-springfield-putting-up-signs-to-try-and-detour-chick-fil-a-starbucks-overflow-at-sunshine/)

Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 24, 2022, 10:55:26 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 23, 2022, 11:48:23 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 23, 2022, 11:54:23 AM
Birdcall >>>>>> Chick-Fil-A.  Too bad only in Arizona and Colorado currently.  And I feel much better spending my money there.

Because you thoroughly researched their financial statements and spending documents of their higher level employees and officials?  Or simply because there's been no mainstream, clickbait or social media stories about how they spend their money?

I know that they no longer give their money to groups to which I vehemently disagree. I also know that they did donate that money about ten years ago.  Dan Cathy was in charge then and he's in charge now. He has made no comments that I have seen that make me believe he has changed his stance.  That's a good enough reason for me not to go there when I have other choices that I like as well or better. Obviously they don't need my business anyway since they're listed so often here as extending out into streets. I will just continue to allocate my resources differently. (Hopefully that's politics-free enough for the mods. I tried to choose words carefully.)

You may have chosen your words carefully regarding politics, but you didn't choose your words carefully about actually answering the question, which was have you researched the places you do go to to see where their money is spent?

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 26, 2022, 09:05:17 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 24, 2022, 10:55:26 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 23, 2022, 11:48:23 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 23, 2022, 11:54:23 AM
Birdcall >>>>>> Chick-Fil-A.  Too bad only in Arizona and Colorado currently.  And I feel much better spending my money there.

Because you thoroughly researched their financial statements and spending documents of their higher level employees and officials?  Or simply because there's been no mainstream, clickbait or social media stories about how they spend their money?

I know that they no longer give their money to groups to which I vehemently disagree. I also know that they did donate that money about ten years ago.  Dan Cathy was in charge then and he's in charge now. He has made no comments that I have seen that make me believe he has changed his stance.  That's a good enough reason for me not to go there when I have other choices that I like as well or better. Obviously they don't need my business anyway since they're listed so often here as extending out into streets. I will just continue to allocate my resources differently. (Hopefully that's politics-free enough for the mods. I tried to choose words carefully.)

You may have chosen your words carefully regarding politics, but you didn't choose your words carefully about actually answering the question, which was have you researched the places you do go to to see where their money is spent?

Obviously not every store, but I do my best to stay informed, yes. I have several causes that are important to me and I research the places that give money to the other side and/or advocate thusly.

A company has to get pretty out there politically before I'll go out of my way to avoid them, especially if they have a product and/or service that's really good.  What am I gonna do? Not get gas at any brand that's ever had an oil spill? Good luck!  It's gonna be a long time before the kind of electric vehicle I would like finally exists, so shrug-a-lug.  (That vehicle?  Mid-sized, two-door extended cab pickup truck.  Not four door; not full-sized; and 4WD of course; it is a pick-up.  First one to market with an eRanger, eTacoma, eColorado, or whatever gets my business.)

Some 10 years ago, they started opening a few Sonics in Wisconsin and for some reason, people went ape-shit over them.  They had ridiculous lines that I'm sure looked absurd to the rest of the country that was intimately familiar with the fast food mediocrity that is Sonic.  Never underestimate the appeal of novelty, I guess.

Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 26, 2022, 11:52:43 PM
A company has to get pretty out there politically before I'll go out of my way to avoid them, especially if they have a product and/or service that's really good.  What am I gonna do? Not get gas at any brand that's ever had an oil spill? Good luck!  It's gonna be a long time before the kind of electric vehicle I would like finally exists, so shrug-a-lug.  (That vehicle?  Mid-sized, two-door extended cab pickup truck.  Not four door; not full-sized; and 4WD of course; it is a pick-up.  First one to market with an eRanger, eTacoma, eColorado, or whatever gets my business.)

Some 10 years ago, they started opening a few Sonics in Wisconsin and for some reason, people went ape-shit over them.  They had ridiculous lines that I'm sure looked absurd to the rest of the country that was intimately familiar with the fast food mediocrity that is Sonic.  Never underestimate the appeal of novelty, I guess.

Same thing happened in CT when they opened the first one.  People waited up to 2 hours in line to go.  Then a couple more opened, and the novelty kind of wore off.  One even closed, but was resurrected a year later thank to the pandemic and people eating in cars rather than in dining rooms.  But don't even get me started on the Krispy Kreme Kraze that arose when they opened 2 locations.  The line stretched for about a mile down the road and required local police to set up a traffic detail.  3 years later, both locations closed, and the only Krispy Kreme left in all of New England is in Mohegan Sun casino. 

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on March 01, 2022, 12:26:51 AM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 26, 2022, 11:52:43 PM
A company has to get pretty out there politically before I'll go out of my way to avoid them, especially if they have a product and/or service that's really good.  What am I gonna do? Not get gas at any brand that's ever had an oil spill? Good luck!  It's gonna be a long time before the kind of electric vehicle I would like finally exists, so shrug-a-lug.  (That vehicle?  Mid-sized, two-door extended cab pickup truck.  Not four door; not full-sized; and 4WD of course; it is a pick-up.  First one to market with an eRanger, eTacoma, eColorado, or whatever gets my business.)

Some 10 years ago, they started opening a few Sonics in Wisconsin and for some reason, people went ape-shit over them.  They had ridiculous lines that I'm sure looked absurd to the rest of the country that was intimately familiar with the fast food mediocrity that is Sonic.  Never underestimate the appeal of novelty, I guess.

Same thing happened in CT when they opened the first one.  People waited up to 2 hours in line to go.  Then a couple more opened, and the novelty kind of wore off.  One even closed, but was resurrected a year later thank to the pandemic and people eating in cars rather than in dining rooms.  But don't even get me started on the Krispy Kreme Kraze that arose when they opened 2 locations.  The line stretched for about a mile down the road and required local police to set up a traffic detail.  3 years later, both locations closed, and the only Krispy Kreme left in all of New England is in Mohegan Sun casino.

Krispy Kreme is another of those chains whose reputation exceeds the quality of their product. Their donuts are fine, but they're no better than the thousands  (https://www.safegraph.com/data/retail-bakeries-in-united-states)of local bakeries across the country. I'd rather support the small, locally-owned shops that are often family-run. Yet I've also seen huge lines when the first ones opened in St Louis and the same happened when the first one in the Coachella Valley opened recently.

Quote from: skluth on March 01, 2022, 12:06:48 PM

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on March 01, 2022, 12:26:51 AM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 26, 2022, 11:52:43 PM
A company has to get pretty out there politically before I'll go out of my way to avoid them, especially if they have a product and/or service that's really good.  What am I gonna do? Not get gas at any brand that's ever had an oil spill? Good luck!  It's gonna be a long time before the kind of electric vehicle I would like finally exists, so shrug-a-lug.  (That vehicle?  Mid-sized, two-door extended cab pickup truck.  Not four door; not full-sized; and 4WD of course; it is a pick-up.  First one to market with an eRanger, eTacoma, eColorado, or whatever gets my business.)

Some 10 years ago, they started opening a few Sonics in Wisconsin and for some reason, people went ape-shit over them.  They had ridiculous lines that I'm sure looked absurd to the rest of the country that was intimately familiar with the fast food mediocrity that is Sonic.  Never underestimate the appeal of novelty, I guess.

Same thing happened in CT when they opened the first one.  People waited up to 2 hours in line to go.  Then a couple more opened, and the novelty kind of wore off.  One even closed, but was resurrected a year later thank to the pandemic and people eating in cars rather than in dining rooms.  But don't even get me started on the Krispy Kreme Kraze that arose when they opened 2 locations.  The line stretched for about a mile down the road and required local police to set up a traffic detail.  3 years later, both locations closed, and the only Krispy Kreme left in all of New England is in Mohegan Sun casino.

Krispy Kreme is another of those chains whose reputation exceeds the quality of their product. Their donuts are fine, but they're no better than the thousands  (https://www.safegraph.com/data/retail-bakeries-in-united-states)of local bakeries across the country. I'd rather support the small, locally-owned shops that are often family-run. Yet I've also seen huge lines when the first ones opened in St Louis and the same happened when the first one in the Coachella Valley opened recently.

But when I go to Krispy Kreme, no matter what place I am in, I know what the product is. I don't know that with Joe Blow Bakery. I don't know what they have or if its any good.
Nor am I sure there is anything intrinsically good about "small, locally-owned shops" that are "family run." Certainly not enough to make me want to go find one.

Take a risk!  See the world!  Regardless, Krispy Kreme isn't very good so pretty much any local bakery is going to be better. 

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 01, 2022, 02:16:36 PM

Quote from: skluth on March 01, 2022, 12:06:48 PM

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on March 01, 2022, 12:26:51 AM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 26, 2022, 11:52:43 PM
A company has to get pretty out there politically before I'll go out of my way to avoid them, especially if they have a product and/or service that's really good.  What am I gonna do? Not get gas at any brand that's ever had an oil spill? Good luck!  It's gonna be a long time before the kind of electric vehicle I would like finally exists, so shrug-a-lug.  (That vehicle?  Mid-sized, two-door extended cab pickup truck.  Not four door; not full-sized; and 4WD of course; it is a pick-up.  First one to market with an eRanger, eTacoma, eColorado, or whatever gets my business.)

Some 10 years ago, they started opening a few Sonics in Wisconsin and for some reason, people went ape-shit over them.  They had ridiculous lines that I'm sure looked absurd to the rest of the country that was intimately familiar with the fast food mediocrity that is Sonic.  Never underestimate the appeal of novelty, I guess.

Same thing happened in CT when they opened the first one.  People waited up to 2 hours in line to go.  Then a couple more opened, and the novelty kind of wore off.  One even closed, but was resurrected a year later thank to the pandemic and people eating in cars rather than in dining rooms.  But don't even get me started on the Krispy Kreme Kraze that arose when they opened 2 locations.  The line stretched for about a mile down the road and required local police to set up a traffic detail.  3 years later, both locations closed, and the only Krispy Kreme left in all of New England is in Mohegan Sun casino.

Krispy Kreme is another of those chains whose reputation exceeds the quality of their product. Their donuts are fine, but they're no better than the thousands  (https://www.safegraph.com/data/retail-bakeries-in-united-states)of local bakeries across the country. I'd rather support the small, locally-owned shops that are often family-run. Yet I've also seen huge lines when the first ones opened in St Louis and the same happened when the first one in the Coachella Valley opened recently.

But when I go to Krispy Kreme, no matter what place I am in, I know what the product is. I don't know that with Joe Blow Bakery. I don't know what they have or if its any good.
Nor am I sure there is anything intrinsically good about "small, locally-owned shops" that are "family run." Certainly not enough to make me want to go find one.

This is what Yelp is for.

Anyone who would intentionally choose Krispy Kreme over the likes of Dinkel's or Weber's in Chicago or Long's in Indianapolis or La Fiorentina in Springfield, MA (etc.)...would be hard not to be called an idiot.

Then again, half this country prefers expected mediocrity instead of pursuing something better out of fear that things'll be worse (usually stoked by those with a financial stake in mediocrity), so I suppose the mentality expressed is unsurprising.

Quote from: Rothman on March 01, 2022, 03:06:42 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 01, 2022, 02:16:36 PM

Quote from: skluth on March 01, 2022, 12:06:48 PM

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on March 01, 2022, 12:26:51 AM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 26, 2022, 11:52:43 PM
A company has to get pretty out there politically before I'll go out of my way to avoid them, especially if they have a product and/or service that's really good.  What am I gonna do? Not get gas at any brand that's ever had an oil spill? Good luck!  It's gonna be a long time before the kind of electric vehicle I would like finally exists, so shrug-a-lug.  (That vehicle?  Mid-sized, two-door extended cab pickup truck.  Not four door; not full-sized; and 4WD of course; it is a pick-up.  First one to market with an eRanger, eTacoma, eColorado, or whatever gets my business.)

Some 10 years ago, they started opening a few Sonics in Wisconsin and for some reason, people went ape-shit over them.  They had ridiculous lines that I'm sure looked absurd to the rest of the country that was intimately familiar with the fast food mediocrity that is Sonic.  Never underestimate the appeal of novelty, I guess.

Same thing happened in CT when they opened the first one.  People waited up to 2 hours in line to go.  Then a couple more opened, and the novelty kind of wore off.  One even closed, but was resurrected a year later thank to the pandemic and people eating in cars rather than in dining rooms.  But don't even get me started on the Krispy Kreme Kraze that arose when they opened 2 locations.  The line stretched for about a mile down the road and required local police to set up a traffic detail.  3 years later, both locations closed, and the only Krispy Kreme left in all of New England is in Mohegan Sun casino.

Krispy Kreme is another of those chains whose reputation exceeds the quality of their product. Their donuts are fine, but they're no better than the thousands  (https://www.safegraph.com/data/retail-bakeries-in-united-states)of local bakeries across the country. I'd rather support the small, locally-owned shops that are often family-run. Yet I've also seen huge lines when the first ones opened in St Louis and the same happened when the first one in the Coachella Valley opened recently.

But when I go to Krispy Kreme, no matter what place I am in, I know what the product is. I don't know that with Joe Blow Bakery. I don't know what they have or if its any good.
Nor am I sure there is anything intrinsically good about "small, locally-owned shops" that are "family run." Certainly not enough to make me want to go find one.

This is what Yelp is for.

Anyone who would intentionally choose Krispy Kreme over the likes of Dinkel's or Weber's in Chicago or Long's in Indianapolis or La Fiorentina in Springfield, MA (etc.)...would be hard not to be called an idiot.

Then again, half this country prefers expected mediocrity instead of pursuing something better out of fear that things'll be worse (usually stoked by those with a financial stake in mediocrity), so I suppose the mentality expressed is unsurprising.

So I am supposed to pull of the freeway and spend 15 minutes fighting through Yelp (which is a poorly designed website stuck in the last decade anyway) on a 4" smartphone screen trying to figure out if there is a marginally better option than Krispy Kream? Sounds like a lot of work compared to just heading for the sign of Krispy Kream.

The value and power of a brand is its ability to communicate. Krispy Kream has a brand which is valuable because it contains so much data in a simple name.


Anyone who would intentionally choose Krispy Kreme over the likes of Dinkel's or Weber's in Chicago or Long's in Indianapolis or La Fiorentina in Springfield, MA (etc.)...would be hard not to be called an idiot.

Assuming you lived in any of those cities yes, sure. But someone that just pulls off the highway and does not know what those places are you can hardly say they are an "idiot" for going with a known and reputable brand. The best hamburger place in my hometown is a little mom and pop place, but I would hardly blame anyone from going to McDonald's or Wendy's when the pull into town because just looking at the buildings both look much cleaner and more well run, not to mention their brands.

half this country prefers expected mediocrity instead of pursuing something better out of fear that things'll be worse
Oh, you mean like not bothering to finish I-95 or I-70 through major cities? I would call that mediocrity.

Quote from: Rothman on March 01, 2022, 03:06:42 PM
This is what Yelp is for.

No, a good rating on Yelp means the business paid Yelp. Stick with Google reviews.

Quote from: 1 on March 01, 2022, 03:39:09 PM

Quote from: Rothman on March 01, 2022, 03:06:42 PM
This is what Yelp is for.

No, a good rating on Yelp means the business paid Yelp. Stick with Google reviews.

Many of those are fake too

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 01, 2022, 03:41:32 PM

Quote from: 1 on March 01, 2022, 03:39:09 PM

Quote from: Rothman on March 01, 2022, 03:06:42 PM
This is what Yelp is for.

No, a good rating on Yelp means the business paid Yelp. Stick with Google reviews.

Many of those are fake too

I think you're both fake.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 01, 2022, 03:23:36 PM

Quote from: Rothman on March 01, 2022, 03:06:42 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 01, 2022, 02:16:36 PM

Quote from: skluth on March 01, 2022, 12:06:48 PM

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on March 01, 2022, 12:26:51 AM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 26, 2022, 11:52:43 PM
A company has to get pretty out there politically before I'll go out of my way to avoid them, especially if they have a product and/or service that's really good.  What am I gonna do? Not get gas at any brand that's ever had an oil spill? Good luck!  It's gonna be a long time before the kind of electric vehicle I would like finally exists, so shrug-a-lug.  (That vehicle?  Mid-sized, two-door extended cab pickup truck.  Not four door; not full-sized; and 4WD of course; it is a pick-up.  First one to market with an eRanger, eTacoma, eColorado, or whatever gets my business.)

Some 10 years ago, they started opening a few Sonics in Wisconsin and for some reason, people went ape-shit over them.  They had ridiculous lines that I'm sure looked absurd to the rest of the country that was intimately familiar with the fast food mediocrity that is Sonic.  Never underestimate the appeal of novelty, I guess.

Same thing happened in CT when they opened the first one.  People waited up to 2 hours in line to go.  Then a couple more opened, and the novelty kind of wore off.  One even closed, but was resurrected a year later thank to the pandemic and people eating in cars rather than in dining rooms.  But don't even get me started on the Krispy Kreme Kraze that arose when they opened 2 locations.  The line stretched for about a mile down the road and required local police to set up a traffic detail.  3 years later, both locations closed, and the only Krispy Kreme left in all of New England is in Mohegan Sun casino.

Krispy Kreme is another of those chains whose reputation exceeds the quality of their product. Their donuts are fine, but they're no better than the thousands  (https://www.safegraph.com/data/retail-bakeries-in-united-states)of local bakeries across the country. I'd rather support the small, locally-owned shops that are often family-run. Yet I've also seen huge lines when the first ones opened in St Louis and the same happened when the first one in the Coachella Valley opened recently.

But when I go to Krispy Kreme, no matter what place I am in, I know what the product is. I don't know that with Joe Blow Bakery. I don't know what they have or if its any good.
Nor am I sure there is anything intrinsically good about "small, locally-owned shops" that are "family run." Certainly not enough to make me want to go find one.

This is what Yelp is for.

Anyone who would intentionally choose Krispy Kreme over the likes of Dinkel's or Weber's in Chicago or Long's in Indianapolis or La Fiorentina in Springfield, MA (etc.)...would be hard not to be called an idiot.

Then again, half this country prefers expected mediocrity instead of pursuing something better out of fear that things'll be worse (usually stoked by those with a financial stake in mediocrity), so I suppose the mentality expressed is unsurprising.

So I am supposed to pull of the freeway and spend 15 minutes fighting through Yelp (which is a poorly designed website stuck in the last decade anyway) on a 4" smartphone screen trying to figure out if there is a marginally better option than Krispy Kream? Sounds like a lot of work compared to just heading for the sign of Krispy Kream.

The value and power of a brand is its ability to communicate. Krispy Kream has a brand which is valuable because it contains so much data in a simple name.


Anyone who would intentionally choose Krispy Kreme over the likes of Dinkel's or Weber's in Chicago or Long's in Indianapolis or La Fiorentina in Springfield, MA (etc.)...would be hard not to be called an idiot.

Assuming you lived in any of those cities yes, sure. But someone that just pulls off the highway and does not know what those places are you can hardly say they are an "idiot" for going with a known and reputable brand. The best hamburger place in my hometown is a little mom and pop place, but I would hardly blame anyone from going to McDonald's or Wendy's when the pull into town because just looking at the buildings both look much cleaner and more well run, not to mention their brands.

I stand by my statement.

If I pull up to a McDonald's, Wendy's, or even Dunkin, there's no guarantee that I get good service. Some employees just don't care, and some locations have shady business practices (e.g. always giving you the large if you don't ask or charging 10¢ for a tiny lemon wedge that doesn't even squeeze).

The key to a good donut is cook 'em in lard.  The overblown hysteria over saturated fats caused them to take the lard out of everything which made it taste crappier, so to compensate, they dumped more sugar into everything.  Which is why grocery store and gas station donuts are so pathetic.  They can look amazing but are always disappointing because they are too sweet.  Good donuts are savory because of the "bad" fat.  Take that out and you're left with just a giant sugar bomb.

We were healthier as a society when these kinds of foods were made out of butter and lard.

"Krispy Kream" sounds like Kennedy Fried Chicken or New Kantacky Fried Chicken (https://forgotten-ny.com/2004/12/chicken-shacks-ken-clucky-fried-imitators-around-town-by-mike-epstein-of-satanslaundromat/).

This place is closed now, but the guy who owned it also owned the (now-defunct) Eleven-Seven located across the street, so (as the article linked above says), "why mess with a winning formula?" It seems the fellow named the place "New Kentucky Fried Chicken," which not surprisingly didn't sit too well with KFC, especially given that there's a real KFC just up the block.

(https://forgotten-ny.com/wp-content/gallery/chicken_10/thumbs/thumbs_new-kantacky.jpg)

Quote from: 1 on March 01, 2022, 04:24:06 PM
If I pull up to a McDonald's, Wendy's, or even Dunkin, there's no guarantee that I get good service. Some employees just don't care, and some locations have shady business practices (e.g. always giving you the large if you don't ask or charging 10¢ for a tiny lemon wedge that doesn't even squeeze).

But the same is true of every other business on the planet.

However, when you see the Golden Arches, you know what they serve, you know that the food is generally good, and you know that your rewards app will work there.

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 01, 2022, 04:27:31 PM
"Krispy Kream" sounds like Kennedy Fried Chicken or New Kantacky Fried Chicken (https://forgotten-ny.com/2004/12/chicken-shacks-ken-clucky-fried-imitators-around-town-by-mike-epstein-of-satanslaundromat/).

This place is closed now, but the guy who owned it also owned the (now-defunct) Eleven-Seven located across the street, so (as the article linked above says), "why mess with a winning formula?" It seems the fellow named the place "New Kentucky Fried Chicken," which not surprisingly didn't sit too well with KFC, especially given that there's a real KFC just up the block.

(https://forgotten-ny.com/wp-content/gallery/chicken_10/thumbs/thumbs_new-kantacky.jpg)

The interesting thing about those is that only someone that lived under a rock would possibly be confused.

City Brew on the other hand has designed their logo and locations to closely resemble Starbucks to the point that at a distance you might see one and mistake it for the other (assuming you were driving and focusing on the road too). By the time you pull up you just decide to go with it rather than try and navigate someplace else.

Not a restaurant, but there's a car wash on Reservoir Avenue in Cranston, RI whose customers back up on to the road on good days for getting one's car washed.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 01, 2022, 03:23:36 PM

Quote from: Rothman on March 01, 2022, 03:06:42 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 01, 2022, 02:16:36 PM

Quote from: skluth on March 01, 2022, 12:06:48 PM

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on March 01, 2022, 12:26:51 AM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 26, 2022, 11:52:43 PM
A company has to get pretty out there politically before I'll go out of my way to avoid them, especially if they have a product and/or service that's really good.  What am I gonna do? Not get gas at any brand that's ever had an oil spill? Good luck!  It's gonna be a long time before the kind of electric vehicle I would like finally exists, so shrug-a-lug.  (That vehicle?  Mid-sized, two-door extended cab pickup truck.  Not four door; not full-sized; and 4WD of course; it is a pick-up.  First one to market with an eRanger, eTacoma, eColorado, or whatever gets my business.)

Some 10 years ago, they started opening a few Sonics in Wisconsin and for some reason, people went ape-shit over them.  They had ridiculous lines that I'm sure looked absurd to the rest of the country that was intimately familiar with the fast food mediocrity that is Sonic.  Never underestimate the appeal of novelty, I guess.

Same thing happened in CT when they opened the first one.  People waited up to 2 hours in line to go.  Then a couple more opened, and the novelty kind of wore off.  One even closed, but was resurrected a year later thank to the pandemic and people eating in cars rather than in dining rooms.  But don't even get me started on the Krispy Kreme Kraze that arose when they opened 2 locations.  The line stretched for about a mile down the road and required local police to set up a traffic detail.  3 years later, both locations closed, and the only Krispy Kreme left in all of New England is in Mohegan Sun casino.

Krispy Kreme is another of those chains whose reputation exceeds the quality of their product. Their donuts are fine, but they're no better than the thousands  (https://www.safegraph.com/data/retail-bakeries-in-united-states)of local bakeries across the country. I'd rather support the small, locally-owned shops that are often family-run. Yet I've also seen huge lines when the first ones opened in St Louis and the same happened when the first one in the Coachella Valley opened recently.

But when I go to Krispy Kreme, no matter what place I am in, I know what the product is. I don't know that with Joe Blow Bakery. I don't know what they have or if its any good.
Nor am I sure there is anything intrinsically good about "small, locally-owned shops" that are "family run." Certainly not enough to make me want to go find one.

This is what Yelp is for.

Anyone who would intentionally choose Krispy Kreme over the likes of Dinkel's or Weber's in Chicago or Long's in Indianapolis or La Fiorentina in Springfield, MA (etc.)...would be hard not to be called an idiot.

Then again, half this country prefers expected mediocrity instead of pursuing something better out of fear that things'll be worse (usually stoked by those with a financial stake in mediocrity), so I suppose the mentality expressed is unsurprising.

So I am supposed to pull of the freeway and spend 15 minutes fighting through Yelp (which is a poorly designed website stuck in the last decade anyway) on a 4" smartphone screen trying to figure out if there is a marginally better option than Krispy Kream? Sounds like a lot of work compared to just heading for the sign of Krispy Kream.

The value and power of a brand is its ability to communicate. Krispy Kream has a brand which is valuable because it contains so much data in a simple name.


Anyone who would intentionally choose Krispy Kreme over the likes of Dinkel's or Weber's in Chicago or Long's in Indianapolis or La Fiorentina in Springfield, MA (etc.)...would be hard not to be called an idiot.

Assuming you lived in any of those cities yes, sure. But someone that just pulls off the highway and does not know what those places are you can hardly say they are an "idiot" for going with a known and reputable brand. The best hamburger place in my hometown is a little mom and pop place, but I would hardly blame anyone from going to McDonald's or Wendy's when the pull into town because just looking at the buildings both look much cleaner and more well run, not to mention their brands.

half this country prefers expected mediocrity instead of pursuing something better out of fear that things'll be worse
Oh, you mean like not bothering to finish I-95 or I-70 through major cities? I would call that mediocrity.

I don't blame anyone for going to a chain while on the road. I usually do too, especially on the way to a destination. It can be risky (visitors won't know how good the local health code enforcement is) and the local experience isn't for everyone. However, most of Krispy Kreme's customers are locals who don't even bother with locally-owned options. I had several options in St Louis (Alton Brown called it a donut nirvana) and even in Palm Springs I have a little hole-in-the-wall (actually in a strip mall) family-run donut shop I visit every time the fat pill craving hits.

Quote from: skluth on March 01, 2022, 05:26:26 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 01, 2022, 03:23:36 PM

Quote from: Rothman on March 01, 2022, 03:06:42 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 01, 2022, 02:16:36 PM

Quote from: skluth on March 01, 2022, 12:06:48 PM

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on March 01, 2022, 12:26:51 AM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 26, 2022, 11:52:43 PM
A company has to get pretty out there politically before I'll go out of my way to avoid them, especially if they have a product and/or service that's really good.  What am I gonna do? Not get gas at any brand that's ever had an oil spill? Good luck!  It's gonna be a long time before the kind of electric vehicle I would like finally exists, so shrug-a-lug.  (That vehicle?  Mid-sized, two-door extended cab pickup truck.  Not four door; not full-sized; and 4WD of course; it is a pick-up.  First one to market with an eRanger, eTacoma, eColorado, or whatever gets my business.)

Some 10 years ago, they started opening a few Sonics in Wisconsin and for some reason, people went ape-shit over them.  They had ridiculous lines that I'm sure looked absurd to the rest of the country that was intimately familiar with the fast food mediocrity that is Sonic.  Never underestimate the appeal of novelty, I guess.

Same thing happened in CT when they opened the first one.  People waited up to 2 hours in line to go.  Then a couple more opened, and the novelty kind of wore off.  One even closed, but was resurrected a year later thank to the pandemic and people eating in cars rather than in dining rooms.  But don't even get me started on the Krispy Kreme Kraze that arose when they opened 2 locations.  The line stretched for about a mile down the road and required local police to set up a traffic detail.  3 years later, both locations closed, and the only Krispy Kreme left in all of New England is in Mohegan Sun casino.

Krispy Kreme is another of those chains whose reputation exceeds the quality of their product. Their donuts are fine, but they're no better than the thousands  (https://www.safegraph.com/data/retail-bakeries-in-united-states)of local bakeries across the country. I'd rather support the small, locally-owned shops that are often family-run. Yet I've also seen huge lines when the first ones opened in St Louis and the same happened when the first one in the Coachella Valley opened recently.

But when I go to Krispy Kreme, no matter what place I am in, I know what the product is. I don't know that with Joe Blow Bakery. I don't know what they have or if its any good.
Nor am I sure there is anything intrinsically good about "small, locally-owned shops" that are "family run." Certainly not enough to make me want to go find one.

This is what Yelp is for.

Anyone who would intentionally choose Krispy Kreme over the likes of Dinkel's or Weber's in Chicago or Long's in Indianapolis or La Fiorentina in Springfield, MA (etc.)...would be hard not to be called an idiot.

Then again, half this country prefers expected mediocrity instead of pursuing something better out of fear that things'll be worse (usually stoked by those with a financial stake in mediocrity), so I suppose the mentality expressed is unsurprising.

So I am supposed to pull of the freeway and spend 15 minutes fighting through Yelp (which is a poorly designed website stuck in the last decade anyway) on a 4" smartphone screen trying to figure out if there is a marginally better option than Krispy Kream? Sounds like a lot of work compared to just heading for the sign of Krispy Kream.

The value and power of a brand is its ability to communicate. Krispy Kream has a brand which is valuable because it contains so much data in a simple name.


Anyone who would intentionally choose Krispy Kreme over the likes of Dinkel's or Weber's in Chicago or Long's in Indianapolis or La Fiorentina in Springfield, MA (etc.)...would be hard not to be called an idiot.

Assuming you lived in any of those cities yes, sure. But someone that just pulls off the highway and does not know what those places are you can hardly say they are an "idiot" for going with a known and reputable brand. The best hamburger place in my hometown is a little mom and pop place, but I would hardly blame anyone from going to McDonald's or Wendy's when the pull into town because just looking at the buildings both look much cleaner and more well run, not to mention their brands.

half this country prefers expected mediocrity instead of pursuing something better out of fear that things'll be worse
Oh, you mean like not bothering to finish I-95 or I-70 through major cities? I would call that mediocrity.

I don't blame anyone for going to a chain while on the road. I usually do too, especially on the way to a destination. It can be risky (visitors won't know how good the local health code enforcement is) and the local experience isn't for everyone. However, most of Krispy Kreme's customers are locals who don't even bother with locally-owned options. I had several options in St Louis (Alton Brown called it a donut nirvana) and even in Palm Springs I have a little hole-in-the-wall (actually in a strip mall) family-run donut shop I visit every time the fat pill craving hits.

Again, why is the location of the ownership relevant? What is the difference if it is locally owned or not? Why does it matter if a family runs it or not? You do realize Krispy Kreme is a franchise model, so in many cases the owners are going to be as local as the doughnut shop down the road?

Quote from: 1 on March 01, 2022, 04:24:06 PM
If I pull up to a McDonald's, Wendy's, or even Dunkin, there's no guarantee that I get good service. Some employees just don't care, and some locations have shady business practices (e.g. always giving you the large if you don't ask or charging 10¢ for a tiny lemon wedge that doesn't even squeeze).

I'm not sure if you'd call it a "shady business practice", but I find it absurd that Wendy's charges a 50 cent upcharge to get an 11.5 oz Simply Orange brand orange juice with a breakfast combo. Why on earth would you charge more for a much smaller drink - not to mention a drink that's so standard that no one on earth would consider it an "upgrade"? I did it anyways since I don't like coffee, but I found it rather ridiculous.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 01, 2022, 06:11:09 PM
Again, why is the location of the ownership relevant? What is the difference if it is locally owned or not? Why does it matter if a family runs it or not? You do realize Krispy Kreme is a franchise model, so in many cases the owners are going to be as local as the doughnut shop down the road?

Do they make donuts in corporate boot leather flavor now?

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 01, 2022, 06:11:09 PM

Again, why is the location of the ownership relevant? What is the difference if it is locally owned or not? Why does it matter if a family runs it or not? You do realize Krispy Kreme is a franchise model, so in many cases the owners are going to be as local as the doughnut shop down the road?

The ownership may be different, but the food is (technically) the same.

It might be inconvenient to read reviews of some local place if you're traveling, but if you have a specific destination in mind, why not check ahead of time? "I'm going to be in Eastnorth Alanland at 10 a.m., so let's see what kind of breakfast options they have. Himmm, there's a Dunkin. They have a Krispy Kreme too. But hey, here's Alan's Pastry Shop that looks really good. I think I'll get my Goat Cheese Cruller from there."

Of course, we've all had bad food and service at these standardized franchise places. Sometimes at the same one. I got some terrible fries at the McDonald's in Lavallette, WV, about 20 years ago. I've since had fries just as bad in Jackson, Ky., and then having gotten some of the best once I've ever tasted there on my next visit.

Quote from: hbelkins on March 03, 2022, 03:16:56 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 01, 2022, 06:11:09 PM

Again, why is the location of the ownership relevant? What is the difference if it is locally owned or not? Why does it matter if a family runs it or not? You do realize Krispy Kreme is a franchise model, so in many cases the owners are going to be as local as the doughnut shop down the road?

The ownership may be different, but the food is (technically) the same.

It might be inconvenient to read reviews of some local place if you're traveling, but if you have a specific destination in mind, why not check ahead of time? "I'm going to be in Eastnorth Alanland at 10 a.m., so let's see what kind of breakfast options they have. Himmm, there's a Dunkin. They have a Krispy Kreme too. But hey, here's Alan's Pastry Shop that looks really good. I think I'll get my Goat Cheese Cruller from there."

Of course, we've all had bad food and service at these standardized franchise places. Sometimes at the same one. I got some terrible fries at the McDonald's in Lavallette, WV, about 20 years ago. I've since had fries just as bad in Jackson, Ky., and then having gotten some of the best once I've ever tasted there on my next visit.

Which is basically to agree with my point that the ownership of a restaurant has no bearing on the food.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 01, 2022, 06:11:09 PM
Again, why is the location of the ownership relevant? What is the difference if it is locally owned or not? Why does it matter if a family runs it or not? You do realize Krispy Kreme is a franchise model, so in many cases the owners are going to be as local as the doughnut shop down the road?

You're assuming a franchise is locally-owned. This is typical but there are many franchise restaurants where the owner may own several franchises and may not be in the same state.

Over half of Krispy Kreme outlets are corporate-owned (https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/amp/financing/krispy-kreme-shifts-away-franchising). Almost all new stores are corporate-owned. I like supporting my locally-owned businesses knowing the profits are more likely to support my community rather than wherever a corporate-owned restaurant is based. Those local owners are more likely to support other local businesses and charities than a corporation based on the other side of the country (https://www.headquartersinfo.com/krispy-kreme-headquarters-information/) from me.

I don't hate Krispy Kreme or McDonalds or any other franchise. I'll usually eat at them when I'm traveling. But I prefer to spend my money to support locally-owned businesses when all other things are equal. My local restaurants have been better than the chains whether I've lived in Palm Springs, St Louis, Tidewater, or my birthplace in Wisconsin. If you don't have that, I'm sorry.

Quote from: skluth on March 03, 2022, 05:19:44 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 01, 2022, 06:11:09 PM
Again, why is the location of the ownership relevant? What is the difference if it is locally owned or not? Why does it matter if a family runs it or not? You do realize Krispy Kreme is a franchise model, so in many cases the owners are going to be as local as the doughnut shop down the road?

You're assuming a franchise is locally-owned. This is typical but there are many franchise restaurants where the owner may own several franchises and may not be in the same state.

Over half of Krispy Kreme outlets are corporate-owned (https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/amp/financing/krispy-kreme-shifts-away-franchising). Almost all new stores are corporate-owned. I like supporting my locally-owned businesses knowing the profits are more likely to support my community rather than wherever a corporate-owned restaurant is based. Those local owners are more likely to support other local businesses and charities than a corporation based on the other side of the country (https://www.headquartersinfo.com/krispy-kreme-headquarters-information/) from me.

I don't hate Krispy Kreme or McDonalds or any other franchise. I'll usually eat at them when I'm traveling. But I prefer to spend my money to support locally-owned businesses when all other things are equal. My local restaurants have been better than the chains whether I've lived in Palm Springs, St Louis, Tidewater, or my birthplace in Wisconsin. If you don't have that, I'm sorry.

No, I am not assuming anything, I am pointing out that franchises are not owned by the corporation, and are almost invariably more "local"  even if it is common for a franchisee to have several locations over a geographic area.

Profits from a corporation do not go to wherever it is based, but rather to wherever its owners live. This tends to result in a wide distribution of the profits with no concentration in any single geographic area.

I think people's affinity for the locally owned place is more related to the observability versus obscurity of the impact. You can see mom and pop making their living at their diner, but you can't see 20 million moms and pops collecting their retirement income from dividends.

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 01, 2022, 04:27:31 PM
"Krispy Kream" sounds like Kennedy Fried Chicken or New Kantacky Fried Chicken (https://forgotten-ny.com/2004/12/chicken-shacks-ken-clucky-fried-imitators-around-town-by-mike-epstein-of-satanslaundromat/).

This place is closed now, but the guy who owned it also owned the (now-defunct) Eleven-Seven located across the street, so (as the article linked above says), "why mess with a winning formula?" It seems the fellow named the place "New Kentucky Fried Chicken," which not surprisingly didn't sit too well with KFC, especially given that there's a real KFC just up the block.

(https://forgotten-ny.com/wp-content/gallery/chicken_10/thumbs/thumbs_new-kantacky.jpg)

Based on what was drawn under the first pasted "A," it could have been the city code officer trying to get him on a (potentially unconstitutional) obscenity charge.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 04, 2022, 12:14:44 AM

Quote from: skluth on March 03, 2022, 05:19:44 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 01, 2022, 06:11:09 PM
Again, why is the location of the ownership relevant? What is the difference if it is locally owned or not? Why does it matter if a family runs it or not? You do realize Krispy Kreme is a franchise model, so in many cases the owners are going to be as local as the doughnut shop down the road?

You're assuming a franchise is locally-owned. This is typical but there are many franchise restaurants where the owner may own several franchises and may not be in the same state.

Over half of Krispy Kreme outlets are corporate-owned (https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/amp/financing/krispy-kreme-shifts-away-franchising). Almost all new stores are corporate-owned. I like supporting my locally-owned businesses knowing the profits are more likely to support my community rather than wherever a corporate-owned restaurant is based. Those local owners are more likely to support other local businesses and charities than a corporation based on the other side of the country (https://www.headquartersinfo.com/krispy-kreme-headquarters-information/) from me.

I don't hate Krispy Kreme or McDonalds or any other franchise. I'll usually eat at them when I'm traveling. But I prefer to spend my money to support locally-owned businesses when all other things are equal. My local restaurants have been better than the chains whether I've lived in Palm Springs, St Louis, Tidewater, or my birthplace in Wisconsin. If you don't have that, I'm sorry.

No, I am not assuming anything, I am pointing out that franchises are not owned by the corporation, and are almost invariably more "local"  even if it is common for a franchisee to have several locations over a geographic area.

Profits from a corporation do not go to wherever it is based, but rather to wherever its owners live. This tends to result in a wide distribution of the profits with no concentration in any single geographic area.

I think people's affinity for the locally owned place is more related to the observability versus obscurity of the impact. You can see mom and pop making their living at their diner, but you can't see 20 million moms and pops collecting their retirement income from dividends.

My affinity for locally owned places is that they are often just better. When I think about the places I generally eat out, almost none of them are chains or franchises. There are some exceptions but those are low end fast food places where I just want a quick meal.

I remember as a kid, there was a burger place called "Norman McDonalds's Hamburgers", this was in the late 60's outside of Owensboro, KY, long after McDonalds was spread throughout the country.  I imagine these days, lawyers would be contacting this place hours after they opened for business the first time.

Quote from: RoadWarrior56 on March 04, 2022, 06:37:46 AM
I remember as a kid, there was a burger place called "Norman McDonalds's Hamburgers", this was in the late 60's outside of Owensboro, KY, long after McDonalds was spread throughout the country.  I imagine these days, lawyers would be contacting this place hours after they opened for business the first time.

Unlikely, unless they were using other elements of McDonald's branding, such as colors or the arches.

A few examples from my hometown of Manistee, MI:
Dairy Queen is on the NW corner of Greenbush St and First St (and has been there since the 1950s), with the drive-thru entrance being off of Greenbush St. On nice nights, the line of cars can back up not only onto Greenbush St, but onto First St almost to Walnut St at times.

A&W has two entrances to its parking lot, one off of US-31 and the other off of Third St. Most lunch hours (even pre-pandemic), the line of cars would often stretch onto Third St or almost to US-31. Also, they're the only fast food place in Manistee that kept their inside open for takeout during the pandemic (their being in the middle of a residential area plays a big role) and one of only two that I know of that have inside seating open as of a few weeks ago.

Michigan seems to have a very high number of permanently converted to drive thru only fast food locations compared to other states. The opioid crisis doesn't help matters either.

Quote from: jmacswimmer on February 23, 2022, 11:58:22 AM

Quote from: webny99 on February 23, 2022, 11:30:26 AM
My last visit to Chick Fil A was to the new one in Irondequoit, NY (you can see it under construction here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1966537,-77.5847618,3a,90y,242.21h,78.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svrt9Fvfdc_4JLHtYo5YTow!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)), and that one has a setup I've never seen before: instead of merging and pulling up to a window to pick up your order, both lanes continue and you pull up under a roof, and your order gets brought out to you by the server through a set of double swing doors. So they could theoretically bring out multiple orders at once if there's a car in each lane (I was there in the morning, so the right lane was closed). I noticed on the sticker on the bag, in addition to my name, there was a description of my car in very large print. Now I wish I'd kept it, so I could share a picture of it here... the point being, of course, that they use the description of the car to help keep the orders straight. I haven't noticed if this is done at the restaurants with a normal pick up window, but I imagine it probably is - and I'll certainly think to notice it next time.

I once stopped at a new Chick-Fil-A in Wilson NC (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.764133,-78.0092157,3a,41.1y,293.52h,88.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sT03szHOy7M9D_31ogP_Cbg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) while passing thru on I-95, and it had the same "delivery" setup you note (and on top of that, this one has a separate tent setup for payment).  Which was great in that orders can be brought out as soon as they're ready, compared to the usual drive-thru setup where your order could be ready already, but it doesn't matter if the car in front of you is still waiting on something.

(Don't worry - as 1995hoo noted, I too made sure to embed Streetview due to the illustrious location!)

EDITED TO ADD: I'm also a fan of places that let you order ahead thru the app and bypass a long drive-thru line that way (Dunkin & Chick-Fil-A are 2 places I do this at).  At Dunkin I'll usually order "walk-in" and typically my order is already ready when I arrive, and at Chick-Fil-A there's usually designated parking spots for "curbside" orders.

This one of my favorite things about COVID. Pre-COVID when I used an app to order food at, say, Taco Bell, when I'd go inside to pick it up, they would tell me "oh, you're here, we'll start making it now" like 90% of the time even though I hit I'm here in the app like 5 minutes before I arrived. Post COVID they actually just make the order when it comes in everywhere, so I'm able to get my fast food much faster.

Quote from: UCFKnights on March 12, 2022, 08:17:00 PM

Quote from: jmacswimmer on February 23, 2022, 11:58:22 AM

Quote from: webny99 on February 23, 2022, 11:30:26 AM
My last visit to Chick Fil A was to the new one in Irondequoit, NY (you can see it under construction here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1966537,-77.5847618,3a,90y,242.21h,78.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svrt9Fvfdc_4JLHtYo5YTow!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)), and that one has a setup I've never seen before: instead of merging and pulling up to a window to pick up your order, both lanes continue and you pull up under a roof, and your order gets brought out to you by the server through a set of double swing doors. So they could theoretically bring out multiple orders at once if there's a car in each lane (I was there in the morning, so the right lane was closed). I noticed on the sticker on the bag, in addition to my name, there was a description of my car in very large print. Now I wish I'd kept it, so I could share a picture of it here... the point being, of course, that they use the description of the car to help keep the orders straight. I haven't noticed if this is done at the restaurants with a normal pick up window, but I imagine it probably is - and I'll certainly think to notice it next time.

I once stopped at a new Chick-Fil-A in Wilson NC (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.764133,-78.0092157,3a,41.1y,293.52h,88.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sT03szHOy7M9D_31ogP_Cbg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) while passing thru on I-95, and it had the same "delivery" setup you note (and on top of that, this one has a separate tent setup for payment).  Which was great in that orders can be brought out as soon as they're ready, compared to the usual drive-thru setup where your order could be ready already, but it doesn't matter if the car in front of you is still waiting on something.

(Don't worry - as 1995hoo noted, I too made sure to embed Streetview due to the illustrious location!)

EDITED TO ADD: I'm also a fan of places that let you order ahead thru the app and bypass a long drive-thru line that way (Dunkin & Chick-Fil-A are 2 places I do this at).  At Dunkin I'll usually order "walk-in" and typically my order is already ready when I arrive, and at Chick-Fil-A there's usually designated parking spots for "curbside" orders.

This one of my favorite things about COVID. Pre-COVID when I used an app to order food at, say, Taco Bell, when I'd go inside to pick it up, they would tell me "oh, you're here, we'll start making it now" like 90% of the time even though I hit I'm here in the app like 5 minutes before I arrived. Post COVID they actually just make the order when it comes in everywhere, so I'm able to get my fast food much faster.

That would be all well and good if it did not come at a tradeoff of making service for everyone else very poor to non existent.

Quote from: UCFKnights on March 12, 2022, 08:17:00 PM
This one of my favorite things about COVID. Pre-COVID when I used an app to order food at, say, Taco Bell, when I'd go inside to pick it up, they would tell me "oh, you're here, we'll start making it now" like 90% of the time even though I hit I'm here in the app like 5 minutes before I arrived. Post COVID they actually just make the order when it comes in everywhere, so I'm able to get my fast food much faster.

Conversely, when ordering though their app for pickup, "Five Guys" policy was to not make your fries until you arrived for pickup, to ensure that you didn't get non-fresh ones.  (I assume the burgers and dogs were still made ahead of time).

I didn't find that to be much of an issue

(This was during the height of the pandemic when they had their dining room closed and were only doing take-out and pick-up)

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 12, 2022, 11:06:10 PM

Quote from: UCFKnights on March 12, 2022, 08:17:00 PM

Quote from: jmacswimmer on February 23, 2022, 11:58:22 AM

Quote from: webny99 on February 23, 2022, 11:30:26 AM
My last visit to Chick Fil A was to the new one in Irondequoit, NY (you can see it under construction here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1966537,-77.5847618,3a,90y,242.21h,78.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svrt9Fvfdc_4JLHtYo5YTow!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)), and that one has a setup I've never seen before: instead of merging and pulling up to a window to pick up your order, both lanes continue and you pull up under a roof, and your order gets brought out to you by the server through a set of double swing doors. So they could theoretically bring out multiple orders at once if there's a car in each lane (I was there in the morning, so the right lane was closed). I noticed on the sticker on the bag, in addition to my name, there was a description of my car in very large print. Now I wish I'd kept it, so I could share a picture of it here... the point being, of course, that they use the description of the car to help keep the orders straight. I haven't noticed if this is done at the restaurants with a normal pick up window, but I imagine it probably is - and I'll certainly think to notice it next time.

I once stopped at a new Chick-Fil-A in Wilson NC (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.764133,-78.0092157,3a,41.1y,293.52h,88.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sT03szHOy7M9D_31ogP_Cbg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) while passing thru on I-95, and it had the same "delivery" setup you note (and on top of that, this one has a separate tent setup for payment).  Which was great in that orders can be brought out as soon as they're ready, compared to the usual drive-thru setup where your order could be ready already, but it doesn't matter if the car in front of you is still waiting on something.

(Don't worry - as 1995hoo noted, I too made sure to embed Streetview due to the illustrious location!)

EDITED TO ADD: I'm also a fan of places that let you order ahead thru the app and bypass a long drive-thru line that way (Dunkin & Chick-Fil-A are 2 places I do this at).  At Dunkin I'll usually order "walk-in" and typically my order is already ready when I arrive, and at Chick-Fil-A there's usually designated parking spots for "curbside" orders.

This one of my favorite things about COVID. Pre-COVID when I used an app to order food at, say, Taco Bell, when I'd go inside to pick it up, they would tell me "oh, you're here, we'll start making it now" like 90% of the time even though I hit I'm here in the app like 5 minutes before I arrived. Post COVID they actually just make the order when it comes in everywhere, so I'm able to get my fast food much faster.

That would be all well and good if it did not come at a tradeoff of making service for everyone else very poor to non existent.

Everyone has the choice of ordering in the app, and it takes less employee time to handle the persons who order in the app then anyone who doesn't order in the app. They deserve better service.

Quote from: UCFKnights on March 13, 2022, 12:24:09 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 12, 2022, 11:06:10 PM

Quote from: UCFKnights on March 12, 2022, 08:17:00 PM

Quote from: jmacswimmer on February 23, 2022, 11:58:22 AM

Quote from: webny99 on February 23, 2022, 11:30:26 AM
My last visit to Chick Fil A was to the new one in Irondequoit, NY (you can see it under construction here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1966537,-77.5847618,3a,90y,242.21h,78.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svrt9Fvfdc_4JLHtYo5YTow!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)), and that one has a setup I've never seen before: instead of merging and pulling up to a window to pick up your order, both lanes continue and you pull up under a roof, and your order gets brought out to you by the server through a set of double swing doors. So they could theoretically bring out multiple orders at once if there's a car in each lane (I was there in the morning, so the right lane was closed). I noticed on the sticker on the bag, in addition to my name, there was a description of my car in very large print. Now I wish I'd kept it, so I could share a picture of it here... the point being, of course, that they use the description of the car to help keep the orders straight. I haven't noticed if this is done at the restaurants with a normal pick up window, but I imagine it probably is - and I'll certainly think to notice it next time.

I once stopped at a new Chick-Fil-A in Wilson NC (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.764133,-78.0092157,3a,41.1y,293.52h,88.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sT03szHOy7M9D_31ogP_Cbg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) while passing thru on I-95, and it had the same "delivery" setup you note (and on top of that, this one has a separate tent setup for payment).  Which was great in that orders can be brought out as soon as they're ready, compared to the usual drive-thru setup where your order could be ready already, but it doesn't matter if the car in front of you is still waiting on something.

(Don't worry - as 1995hoo noted, I too made sure to embed Streetview due to the illustrious location!)

EDITED TO ADD: I'm also a fan of places that let you order ahead thru the app and bypass a long drive-thru line that way (Dunkin & Chick-Fil-A are 2 places I do this at).  At Dunkin I'll usually order "walk-in" and typically my order is already ready when I arrive, and at Chick-Fil-A there's usually designated parking spots for "curbside" orders.

This one of my favorite things about COVID. Pre-COVID when I used an app to order food at, say, Taco Bell, when I'd go inside to pick it up, they would tell me "oh, you're here, we'll start making it now" like 90% of the time even though I hit I'm here in the app like 5 minutes before I arrived. Post COVID they actually just make the order when it comes in everywhere, so I'm able to get my fast food much faster.

That would be all well and good if it did not come at a tradeoff of making service for everyone else very poor to non existent.

Everyone has the choice of ordering in the app, and it takes less employee time to handle the persons who order in the app then anyone who doesn't order in the app. They deserve better service.

I am a paying customer, I deserve good service without jumping through hoops to order through some stupid app.
This is just another example of skimpflation, making the product worse to save money and hide the impacts of rising prices.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 13, 2022, 02:08:19 PM

Quote from: UCFKnights on March 13, 2022, 12:24:09 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 12, 2022, 11:06:10 PM

Quote from: UCFKnights on March 12, 2022, 08:17:00 PM

Quote from: jmacswimmer on February 23, 2022, 11:58:22 AM

Quote from: webny99 on February 23, 2022, 11:30:26 AM
My last visit to Chick Fil A was to the new one in Irondequoit, NY (you can see it under construction here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1966537,-77.5847618,3a,90y,242.21h,78.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svrt9Fvfdc_4JLHtYo5YTow!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)), and that one has a setup I've never seen before: instead of merging and pulling up to a window to pick up your order, both lanes continue and you pull up under a roof, and your order gets brought out to you by the server through a set of double swing doors. So they could theoretically bring out multiple orders at once if there's a car in each lane (I was there in the morning, so the right lane was closed). I noticed on the sticker on the bag, in addition to my name, there was a description of my car in very large print. Now I wish I'd kept it, so I could share a picture of it here... the point being, of course, that they use the description of the car to help keep the orders straight. I haven't noticed if this is done at the restaurants with a normal pick up window, but I imagine it probably is - and I'll certainly think to notice it next time.

I once stopped at a new Chick-Fil-A in Wilson NC (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.764133,-78.0092157,3a,41.1y,293.52h,88.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sT03szHOy7M9D_31ogP_Cbg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) while passing thru on I-95, and it had the same "delivery" setup you note (and on top of that, this one has a separate tent setup for payment).  Which was great in that orders can be brought out as soon as they're ready, compared to the usual drive-thru setup where your order could be ready already, but it doesn't matter if the car in front of you is still waiting on something.

(Don't worry - as 1995hoo noted, I too made sure to embed Streetview due to the illustrious location!)

EDITED TO ADD: I'm also a fan of places that let you order ahead thru the app and bypass a long drive-thru line that way (Dunkin & Chick-Fil-A are 2 places I do this at).  At Dunkin I'll usually order "walk-in" and typically my order is already ready when I arrive, and at Chick-Fil-A there's usually designated parking spots for "curbside" orders.

This one of my favorite things about COVID. Pre-COVID when I used an app to order food at, say, Taco Bell, when I'd go inside to pick it up, they would tell me "oh, you're here, we'll start making it now" like 90% of the time even though I hit I'm here in the app like 5 minutes before I arrived. Post COVID they actually just make the order when it comes in everywhere, so I'm able to get my fast food much faster.

That would be all well and good if it did not come at a tradeoff of making service for everyone else very poor to non existent.

Everyone has the choice of ordering in the app, and it takes less employee time to handle the persons who order in the app then anyone who doesn't order in the app. They deserve better service.

I am a paying customer, I deserve good service without jumping through hoops to order through some stupid app.
This is just another example of skimpflation, making the product worse to save money and hide the impacts of rising prices.

Ah, the magical word: "Deserve". Everyone deserves everything. Do you go screaming it's your constitutional right you deserve it?

I oppose smartphone-only deals (and smartphone-only vaccination cards, etc.), but for an entirely different reason from HighwayStar: Not everyone is able to afford a smartphone, and even for the majority that do have one, it could be lost, in need of repair, or at 0% battery.

Quote from: 1 on March 13, 2022, 08:07:29 PM
I oppose smartphone-only deals (and smartphone-only vaccination cards, etc.), but for an entirely different reason from HighwayStar: Not everyone is able to afford a smartphone, and even for the majority that do have one, it could be lost, in need of repair, or at 0% battery.

Do you oppose credit card offers since not everyone can qualify for the credit card? Lower interest rates since people don't have the credit scores to qualify?

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2022, 08:19:13 PM

Quote from: 1 on March 13, 2022, 08:07:29 PM
I oppose smartphone-only deals (and smartphone-only vaccination cards, etc.), but for an entirely different reason from HighwayStar: Not everyone is able to afford a smartphone, and even for the majority that do have one, it could be lost, in need of repair, or at 0% battery.

Do you oppose credit card offers since not everyone can qualify for the credit card? Lower interest rates since people don't have the credit scores to qualify?

Yes. Credit score is basically a scam, anyway, and the concept of a credit score disadvantages poorer people who might not always be able to make payments on time.

I don't even have a credit score right now, since I'm not making payments to anything.

There's also the issue that credit card companies make way too much money, and people can be suckered into getting 1-2% cash back and then having to declare bankruptcy due to credit card debt that they weren't expecting.

Quote from: 1 on March 13, 2022, 08:23:22 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2022, 08:19:13 PM

Quote from: 1 on March 13, 2022, 08:07:29 PM
I oppose smartphone-only deals (and smartphone-only vaccination cards, etc.), but for an entirely different reason from HighwayStar: Not everyone is able to afford a smartphone, and even for the majority that do have one, it could be lost, in need of repair, or at 0% battery.

Do you oppose credit card offers since not everyone can qualify for the credit card? Lower interest rates since people don't have the credit scores to qualify?

Yes. Credit score is basically a scam, anyway, and the concept of a credit score disadvantages poorer people who might not always be able to make payments on time.

I don't even have a credit score right now, since I'm not making payments to anything.

There's also the issue that credit card companies make way too much money, and people can be suckered into getting 1-2% cash back and then having to declare bankruptcy due to credit card debt that they weren't expecting.

:-D

Credit scores are most definitely not a scam. They are a pretty good indicator of how much credit you can give to someone and expect to be paid back.
It does not "disadvantage" anyone, it simply reports someone's creditworthiness. Yeah "poor" people are less creditworthy in many cases, which makes perfect sense if you think about it. Interestingly however, many well to do people are also not creditworthy, its amazing how doctors making six figure salaries still live paycheque to paycheque.
Who are you to decide how much any company should make? No one is making you use a credit card, you are free to use cash if you please.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 13, 2022, 10:29:25 PM

Quote from: 1 on March 13, 2022, 08:23:22 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2022, 08:19:13 PM

Quote from: 1 on March 13, 2022, 08:07:29 PM
I oppose smartphone-only deals (and smartphone-only vaccination cards, etc.), but for an entirely different reason from HighwayStar: Not everyone is able to afford a smartphone, and even for the majority that do have one, it could be lost, in need of repair, or at 0% battery.

Do you oppose credit card offers since not everyone can qualify for the credit card? Lower interest rates since people don't have the credit scores to qualify?

Yes. Credit score is basically a scam, anyway, and the concept of a credit score disadvantages poorer people who might not always be able to make payments on time.

I don't even have a credit score right now, since I'm not making payments to anything.

There's also the issue that credit card companies make way too much money, and people can be suckered into getting 1-2% cash back and then having to declare bankruptcy due to credit card debt that they weren't expecting.

:-D

Credit scores are most definitely not a scam. They are a pretty good indicator of how much credit you can give to someone and expect to be paid back.
It does not "disadvantage" anyone, it simply reports someone's creditworthiness. ...

It doesn't disadvantage any one person because it instead disadvantages everyone. It encourages you to go into to debt, while ultimately being fictitious, pretty much meaningless, and something people pay way too much attention to.

https://twitter.com/DaveRamsey/status/1494703758877601798

Lets just say Ramsey did not get his degree in finance from an A tier business school.
This aversion to debt is a relic of a bygone age, in a world with constant inflation having some types of debt is a good thing, it creates leverage. Firms use debt financing for a reason. Having credit, ie. proof that you will pay back money you borrow, is important for doing things like buying real estate, which few people are ever going to go their entire life being able to pay for with straight cash.
Its also important for getting access to desirable credit cards with good rewards programmes.

Quote from: 1 on March 13, 2022, 08:23:22 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2022, 08:19:13 PM

Quote from: 1 on March 13, 2022, 08:07:29 PM
I oppose smartphone-only deals (and smartphone-only vaccination cards, etc.), but for an entirely different reason from HighwayStar: Not everyone is able to afford a smartphone, and even for the majority that do have one, it could be lost, in need of repair, or at 0% battery.

Do you oppose credit card offers since not everyone can qualify for the credit card? Lower interest rates since people don't have the credit scores to qualify?

Yes. Credit score is basically a scam, anyway, and the concept of a credit score disadvantages poorer people who might not always be able to make payments on time.

I don't even have a credit score right now, since I'm not making payments to anything.

There's also the issue that credit card companies make way too much money, and people can be suckered into getting 1-2% cash back and then having to declare bankruptcy due to credit card debt that they weren't expecting.

So, contracts are meaningless to you then, eh?

Personal finance 101: Get yourself a credit card. Any card. Buy a few things of low value each month. Pay the card in full each month. Build up your credit score.

Creditors, employers and others won't give two damns about your opinion when you want to buy a house or car. But they will care that you have a habit of paying your bills on time each month.

If anyone in here has the entire formula behind FICO scores, please post it.

Frankly, I'm in the camp that considers credit scores an indicator of how much profit can be made off an individual.  Need to look no farther than the housing bust to see that.

ETA:  We seem far afield of the topic of the thread.  Perhaps a split would be welcome.

Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2022, 11:51:28 PM
If anyone in here has the entire formula behind FICO scores, please post it.

Frankly, I'm in the camp that considers credit scores an indicator of how much profit can be made off an individual.  Need to look no farther than the housing bust to see that.

How is it an indicator of profit?

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 13, 2022, 11:52:57 PM

Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2022, 11:51:28 PM
If anyone in here has the entire formula behind FICO scores, please post it.

Frankly, I'm in the camp that considers credit scores an indicator of how much profit can be made off an individual.  Need to look no farther than the housing bust to see that.

How is it an indicator of profit?

Higher the score, the more profit potential is seen by a bank.

C'mon, Barbed Wire Guy, businesses are in business to maximize profit.  They came up with the FICO score to do so.

Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2022, 11:54:45 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 13, 2022, 11:52:57 PM

Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2022, 11:51:28 PM
If anyone in here has the entire formula behind FICO scores, please post it.

Frankly, I'm in the camp that considers credit scores an indicator of how much profit can be made off an individual.  Need to look no farther than the housing bust to see that.

How is it an indicator of profit?

Higher the score, the more profit potential is seen by a bank.

Yeah, its not that simple. It depends greatly on the product, etc. but there is not a straightforward correlation between FICO and profitability. Higher FICO scores can get lower rates, which means smaller margins and less profit. In at least some product categories the middle FICO scores are actually the most profitable because they are the maximizing point between high losses and low rates.

I've seen this local ice cream shop (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sweet+Smitty%E2%80%99s/@41.0430074,-82.7299799,130m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8839897fd7b86f2d:0x344d2ded3230202d!8m2!3d41.0429382!4d-82.7299412) have this problem several times, sometimes even when they have the line wrap all the way around the plaza next door with the Subway in it.

Quote from: 1 on March 13, 2022, 08:07:29 PM
I oppose smartphone-only deals (and smartphone-only vaccination cards, etc.), but for an entirely different reason from HighwayStar: Not everyone is able to afford a smartphone, and even for the majority that do have one, it could be lost, in need of repair, or at 0% battery.

But the smartphone deals are given by the companies because it literally costs less for them to take the order, discounts shouldn't be given to customers who save companies money? Incentives 101 here

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 13, 2022, 02:08:19 PM
I am a paying customer, I deserve good service without jumping through hoops to order through some stupid app.
This is just another example of skimpflation, making the product worse to save money and hide the impacts of rising prices.

I'd also argue that when I use the app and get faster service utilizing employee time, you are benefiting as well, even if you don't use the app... if I walk in and insist on ordering at the register, the employee who was helping make the food is going to have to stop and take my order, usually immediately.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 13, 2022, 11:58:30 PM

Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2022, 11:54:45 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 13, 2022, 11:52:57 PM

Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2022, 11:51:28 PM
If anyone in here has the entire formula behind FICO scores, please post it.

Frankly, I'm in the camp that considers credit scores an indicator of how much profit can be made off an individual.  Need to look no farther than the housing bust to see that.

How is it an indicator of profit?

Higher the score, the more profit potential is seen by a bank.

Yeah, its not that simple. It depends greatly on the product, etc. but there is not a straightforward correlation between FICO and profitability. Higher FICO scores can get lower rates, which means smaller margins and less profit. In at least some product categories the middle FICO scores are actually the most profitable because they are the maximizing point between high losses and low rates.

I love how you talk out of both sides of your mouth when it comes to private businesses.  They would not come up with a FICO score formula that would hurt their profits, since their entire purpose is to maximize profits.

They've rigged the system comprehensively to do so.

Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2022, 11:51:28 PM
If anyone in here has the entire formula behind FICO scores, please post it.

It's a proprietary formula, as are the formulas behind calculating credit scores with the three major bureaus, but this is a good guide:

https://www.equifax.com/personal/education/credit/score/what-is-a-fico-score/

Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2022, 11:51:28 PMFrankly, I'm in the camp that considers credit scores an indicator of how much profit can be made off an individual.  Need to look no farther than the housing bust to see that.

Correct - a low score enables the lender to charge the borrower a usurious interest rate, which translates into more profit for the company.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 13, 2022, 10:29:25 PMThey are a pretty good indicator of how much credit you can give to someone and expect to be paid back.

No they're not.  You could have a perfect credit score and be on the verge of being evicted from your home, with the utilities shut off due to nonpayment, because none of these are on your credit report.

Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2022, 06:56:28 AM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 13, 2022, 11:58:30 PM

Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2022, 11:54:45 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 13, 2022, 11:52:57 PM

Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2022, 11:51:28 PM
If anyone in here has the entire formula behind FICO scores, please post it.

Frankly, I'm in the camp that considers credit scores an indicator of how much profit can be made off an individual.  Need to look no farther than the housing bust to see that.

How is it an indicator of profit?

Higher the score, the more profit potential is seen by a bank.

Yeah, its not that simple. It depends greatly on the product, etc. but there is not a straightforward correlation between FICO and profitability. Higher FICO scores can get lower rates, which means smaller margins and less profit. In at least some product categories the middle FICO scores are actually the most profitable because they are the maximizing point between high losses and low rates.

I love how you talk out of both sides of your mouth when it comes to private businesses.  They would not come up with a FICO score formula that would hurt their profits, since their entire purpose is to maximize profits.

They've rigged the system comprehensively to do so.

I am a realist, not a fanboy or a hater, so if that is what you call "talking out of both sides of your mouth" then so be it.

First off, FICO is not a product of the companies that make money on loans, it is a product of the credit bureaus who came up with it to make money by providing information to lenders. So there are two different entities in play here.
Second, FICO being useful to maximize profits is not the same thing as your earlier claim that FICO is positively correlated with profits, so you are moving the goalpost here.
Third, maximizing profits is not a bad thing, every business does it.
Fourth, there is no "rigging" of the system or any other conspiracy here. Some entities came up with a measure of creditworthiness and sold that to lenders, no smoke and mirrors or anything weird about it.

Quote from: abefroman329 on March 14, 2022, 10:07:40 AM

Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2022, 11:51:28 PM
If anyone in here has the entire formula behind FICO scores, please post it.

It's a proprietary formula, as are the formulas behind calculating credit scores with the three major bureaus, but this is a good guide:

https://www.equifax.com/personal/education/credit/score/what-is-a-fico-score/

Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2022, 11:51:28 PMFrankly, I'm in the camp that considers credit scores an indicator of how much profit can be made off an individual.  Need to look no farther than the housing bust to see that.

Correct - a low score enables the lender to charge the borrower a usurious interest rate, which translates into more profit for the company.

Incorrect. A low score does not allow an usurious interest rate, as by definition usurious interest rates are prohibited by usury laws.
Also incorrect in the sense that it is not a uni-dimensional problem to solve, people with really low FICO scores can often not be loaned to at even the maximum interest rate and still generate NPV.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 11:05:12 AM

Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2022, 06:56:28 AM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 13, 2022, 11:58:30 PM

Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2022, 11:54:45 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 13, 2022, 11:52:57 PM

Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2022, 11:51:28 PM
If anyone in here has the entire formula behind FICO scores, please post it.

Frankly, I'm in the camp that considers credit scores an indicator of how much profit can be made off an individual.  Need to look no farther than the housing bust to see that.

How is it an indicator of profit?

Higher the score, the more profit potential is seen by a bank.

Yeah, its not that simple. It depends greatly on the product, etc. but there is not a straightforward correlation between FICO and profitability. Higher FICO scores can get lower rates, which means smaller margins and less profit. In at least some product categories the middle FICO scores are actually the most profitable because they are the maximizing point between high losses and low rates.

I love how you talk out of both sides of your mouth when it comes to private businesses.  They would not come up with a FICO score formula that would hurt their profits, since their entire purpose is to maximize profits.

They've rigged the system comprehensively to do so.

I am a realist, not a fanboy or a hater, so if that is what you call "talking out of both sides of your mouth" then so be it.

First off, FICO is not a product of the companies that make money on loans, it is a product of the credit bureaus who came up with it to make money by providing information to lenders. So there are two different entities in play here.
Second, FICO being useful to maximize profits is not the same thing as your earlier claim that FICO is positively correlated with profits, so you are moving the goalpost here.
Third, maximizing profits is not a bad thing, every business does it.
Fourth, there is no "rigging" of the system or any other conspiracy here. Some entities came up with a measure of creditworthiness and sold that to lenders, no smoke and mirrors or anything weird about it.

Regarding your first point: "Now who's being naive, Kay."

The rest ignores the social consequences of the system as set.

Quote from: abefroman329 on March 14, 2022, 10:07:40 AM

Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2022, 11:51:28 PM
If anyone in here has the entire formula behind FICO scores, please post it.

It's a proprietary formula, as are the formulas behind calculating credit scores with the three major bureaus, but this is a good guide:

https://www.equifax.com/personal/education/credit/score/what-is-a-fico-score/

Yeah, that was my point in asking.  The fact its inner workings are secret is also very telling about its true purpose.

Quote from: abefroman329 on March 14, 2022, 10:09:02 AM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 13, 2022, 10:29:25 PMThey are a pretty good indicator of how much credit you can give to someone and expect to be paid back.

No they're not.  You could have a perfect credit score and be on the verge of being evicted from your home, with the utilities shut off due to nonpayment, because none of these are on your credit report.

That does not matter though. Notice what I said, they are a good indicator ie. there is a high correlation between FICO score and repayment of loans. What you describe is a theoretical edge case, but in reality it is extremely rare for that to happen, so it is not relevant.
Remember that banks are making thousands and thousands, usually millions, of loans, if a variable is accurate 95% of the time it is very useful.

Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2022, 11:09:43 AM

Quote from: abefroman329 on March 14, 2022, 10:07:40 AM

Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2022, 11:51:28 PM
If anyone in here has the entire formula behind FICO scores, please post it.

It's a proprietary formula, as are the formulas behind calculating credit scores with the three major bureaus, but this is a good guide:

https://www.equifax.com/personal/education/credit/score/what-is-a-fico-score/

Yeah, that was my point in asking.  The fact its inner workings are secret is also very telling about its true purpose.

So everything that is proprietary or not open source has some sinister "true purpose"? You should probabally destroy whatever device you are typing this on then, since I guarantee several of its inner workings are secret. Who knows, it might just be waiting for you to fall asleep before it comes alive and starts sucking brain tissue. I hope you never have KFC or Coke either, because those might be laced with some mind control agent in their secret formula.

The reason that the exact inner workings are secret is the same reason many companies have secret formulas or processes, because it provides a competitive advantage. And yes, there are competitors to the big 3 credit bureaus these days that would like a piece of the action.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 11:07:23 AMIncorrect. A low score does not allow an usurious interest rate, as by definition usurious interest rates are prohibited by usury laws.

Incorrect, incorrect, and thrice incorrect: https://wallethub.com/edu/cc/usury-laws/25568

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 11:07:23 AMAlso incorrect in the sense that it is not a uni-dimensional problem to solve, people with really low FICO scores can often not be loaned to at even the maximum interest rate and still generate NPV.

So you know nothing about underwriting, then.  Cool.

Quote from: abefroman329 on March 14, 2022, 11:14:26 AM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 11:07:23 AMIncorrect. A low score does not allow an usurious interest rate, as by definition usurious interest rates are prohibited by usury laws.

Incorrect, incorrect, and thrice incorrect: https://wallethub.com/edu/cc/usury-laws/25568

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 11:07:23 AMAlso incorrect in the sense that it is not a uni-dimensional problem to solve, people with really low FICO scores can often not be loaned to at even the maximum interest rate and still generate NPV.

So you know nothing about underwriting, then.  Cool.

That is not "incorrect", it is perfectly correct. Did  you even read the whole article? If something has no set usury rate in law, then there is no such thing as an usury rate for that product.

Actually I do know a great deal about underwriting. And your statement is so simplistic as to offer no real critique of my explanation that I cannot really respond further than that.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 11:17:05 AM

Quote from: abefroman329 on March 14, 2022, 11:14:26 AM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 11:07:23 AMIncorrect. A low score does not allow an usurious interest rate, as by definition usurious interest rates are prohibited by usury laws.

Incorrect, incorrect, and thrice incorrect: https://wallethub.com/edu/cc/usury-laws/25568

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 11:07:23 AMAlso incorrect in the sense that it is not a uni-dimensional problem to solve, people with really low FICO scores can often not be loaned to at even the maximum interest rate and still generate NPV.

So you know nothing about underwriting, then.  Cool.

That is not "incorrect", it is perfectly correct. Did  you even read the whole article? If something has no set usury rate in law, then there is no such thing as an usury rate for that product.

Did you even read the whole article?

QuoteAlthough usury laws are still in the books, whether they actually apply depends on the type of financial institution and where it is based. Usury laws have no effect on most banks and credit card companies, especially if they are headquartered in states with no defined maximum interest rate limits.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 11:17:05 AMActually I do know a great deal about underwriting.

So you know that extending credit and setting an interest rate are two separate processes, then.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 11:13:57 AM

Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2022, 11:09:43 AM

Quote from: abefroman329 on March 14, 2022, 10:07:40 AM

Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2022, 11:51:28 PM
If anyone in here has the entire formula behind FICO scores, please post it.

It's a proprietary formula, as are the formulas behind calculating credit scores with the three major bureaus, but this is a good guide:

https://www.equifax.com/personal/education/credit/score/what-is-a-fico-score/

Yeah, that was my point in asking.  The fact its inner workings are secret is also very telling about its true purpose.

So everything that is proprietary or not open source has some sinister "true purpose"? You should probabally destroy whatever device you are typing this on then, since I guarantee several of its inner workings are secret. Who knows, it might just be waiting for you to fall asleep before it comes alive and starts sucking brain tissue. I hope you never have KFC or Coke either, because those might be laced with some mind control agent in their secret formula.

The reason that the exact inner workings are secret is the same reason many companies have secret formulas or processes, because it provides a competitive advantage. And yes, there are competitors to the big 3 credit bureaus these days that would like a piece of the action.

And you were talking about moving the goalposts?

Your first paragraph is blather while your second paragraph supports my original point that FICO scores are all about maximizing private profit.

Just because something is legal (charging extremely high interest rates) doesn't mean it should be. You seem to think that corporations can make as much money as they want in any way possible and that that's a good thing.

Reiterating:

Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2022, 11:51:28 PM
ETA:  We seem far afield of the topic of the thread.  Perhaps a split would be welcome.

Quote from: abefroman329 on March 14, 2022, 11:19:53 AM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 11:17:05 AM

Quote from: abefroman329 on March 14, 2022, 11:14:26 AM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 11:07:23 AMIncorrect. A low score does not allow an usurious interest rate, as by definition usurious interest rates are prohibited by usury laws.

Incorrect, incorrect, and thrice incorrect: https://wallethub.com/edu/cc/usury-laws/25568

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 11:07:23 AMAlso incorrect in the sense that it is not a uni-dimensional problem to solve, people with really low FICO scores can often not be loaned to at even the maximum interest rate and still generate NPV.

So you know nothing about underwriting, then.  Cool.

That is not "incorrect", it is perfectly correct. Did  you even read the whole article? If something has no set usury rate in law, then there is no such thing as an usury rate for that product.

Did you even read the whole article?

QuoteAlthough usury laws are still in the books, whether they actually apply depends on the type of financial institution and where it is based. Usury laws have no effect on most banks and credit card companies, especially if they are headquartered in states with no defined maximum interest rate limits.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 11:17:05 AMActually I do know a great deal about underwriting.

So you know that extending credit and setting an interest rate are two separate processes, then.

The are not entirely separate processes. While many institutions do attempt to separate them in their processing, from an economic standpoint there are clear relationships between them.
For example, who you choose to extend credit to is partially based on what interest rate you can/will charge. If you are in a state with a rate capped at say 18%, then that is a key factor in your underwriting decisions, as you cannot make NPV positive loans to some people on the basis of that rate.
Likewise, who you decide to extend credit to has an obvious impact on the interest rate you then set for them.
So to say they are "separate processes" is true in the sense that they are both questions a firm must deal with, but in a macroeconomic sense you can generally view it as one process.

Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2022, 11:23:09 AM
And you were talking about moving the goalposts?

Your first paragraph is blather while your second paragraph supports my original point that FICO scores are all about maximizing private profit.

Lets rewind.

My question to you
How is it an indicator of profit?
Your answer
Higher the score, the more profit potential is seen by a bank.

There is a distinction between something being used to maximize profit, and it being an indicator of profit. Banks use FICO to maximize profit, which I never claimed otherwise, but your assertion that you can look at a FICO score and know how profitable that customer would be for the bank is simply wrong and misunderstands how they are used.

Your original point was not that they are used to maximize profit, but that "Higher the score, the more profit potential is seen by a bank." which is simply false.

Quote from: 1 on March 14, 2022, 11:24:46 AM
Just because something is legal (charging extremely high interest rates) doesn't mean it should be. You seem to think that corporations can make as much money as they want in any way possible and that that's a good thing.

Reiterating:

Quote from: Rothman on March 13, 2022, 11:51:28 PM
ETA:  We seem far afield of the topic of the thread.  Perhaps a split would be welcome.

Not sure this is even worth splitting, I think we have reached the point where everyone is entrenched in a viewpoint and further discussion is likely to be circular.

Quote from: 1 on March 13, 2022, 08:23:22 PM
Yes. Credit score is basically a scam, anyway, and the concept of a credit score disadvantages poorer people who might not always be able to make payments on time.

I don't even have a credit score right now, since I'm not making payments to anything.

There's also the issue that credit card companies make way too much money, and people can be suckered into getting 1-2% cash back and then having to declare bankruptcy due to credit card debt that they weren't expecting.

You probably have a credit score even if you don't know you have one. It's something you have the moment you do anything within the US financial system. Open a bank account; you get a credit score. Apply for a student loan; you get a credit score. Regularly pay your car insurance; you get a credit score. They're not a scam; they are a tool used by companies to help determine whether it's a good idea to lend a person money. It's important to remember it's a tool, no more or less. It's not a conspiracy nor is it something to increase profitability. It's just a tool.

For those with bad credit scores and those who just don't like the idea of capitalism on any level, credit scores are evil. But the world is capitalist whether we like it or not. The only option we have is to make it better for people. Anger towards your FICO score is a waste of time. A bad score may hurt you if you're poor and need to borrow money. That's a modern thing. The old feudal/ mercantile system had usurious payments (read The Merchant of Venice (https://shakespeareandbeyond.folger.edu/2017/12/05/usury-merchant-of-venice-london-triumph-stephen-alford/)). The modern system of borrowing is actually better for most people, including poorer people, than it was even a couple hundred years ago.

That's my issue.

"FICO is good for you."

"Ok, let me see how it's calculated."

"No.  Just take our word for it and any future need for debt will depend upon it."

Folks, please check the quotes in your posts (use the "Preview" button) before posting. There are some illegible posts in this thread (by multiple people) and it's not the reader's responsibility to sift through the mangled quotations.

My issue with the whole "credit score" system is that information is often used for things it doesn't need to be used for, such as employment or auto insurance rates.

As to the debate over the term "usurious," it's often a matter of opinion.

Quote from: hbelkins on March 14, 2022, 11:46:57 AMMy issue with the whole "credit score" system is that information is often used for things it doesn't need to be used for, such as employment or auto insurance rates.

Why?  There's a strong correlation between credit score and likeliness that you'll be in an accident, same as there's a strong correlation between credit score and likeliness you'll pay your loan as agreed.

As for employment, well, if you're drowning in debt, and the position you're being offered includes access to information that a bad actor would pay you a lot of money for, why should you get the job?

Quote from: abefroman329 on March 14, 2022, 12:18:45 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on March 14, 2022, 11:46:57 AMMy issue with the whole "credit score" system is that information is often used for things it doesn't need to be used for, such as employment or auto insurance rates.

Why?  There's a strong correlation between credit score and likeliness that you'll be in an accident, same as there's a strong correlation between credit score and likeliness you'll pay your loan as agreed.

As for employment, well, if you're drowning in debt, and the position you're being offered includes access to information that a bad actor would pay you a lot of money for, why should you get the job?

What does a credit score have to do with whether or not someone is a good driver??

A correlation doesn't have to be a direct one in order to be useful to the actuaries.

I'm surprised that nobody mentioned that credit scored actually go down when paying off a loan because it decreases one's variety of credit.  Apparently paid off accounts don't count, whereas they would if it was purely an indicator of how well one can handle debt.

Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2022, 12:41:20 PM
A correlation doesn't have to be a direct one in order to be useful to the actuaries.

This.  :coffee:

Quote from: skluth on March 14, 2022, 11:32:58 AM
...Open a bank account; you get a credit score...Regularly pay your car insurance; you get a credit score...

While it probably varies among banking institutions, bank accounts and insurance policies often are *not* reported to credit agencies.

Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2022, 11:40:35 AM
That's my issue.

"FICO is good for you."

"Ok, let me see how it's calculated."

"No.  Just take our word for it and any future need for debt will depend upon it."

While the exact number will vary among even the different reporting agencies, basically, you pay your bills on time, your score goes up. Utilize minimal money on your credit, your score goes up. The longer you maintain a credit history, your score goes up.

If someone has some late payments, constantly bump up against your credit limits or declared bankruptcy, your score goes down.

People know their past history.  If they say their score shouldn't matter, then chances are they have a history that tells creditors it does matter.

Credit agencies have been using these scores for decades. Creditors have relied on those scores for decades. They are tried and true for a high percentage of their business.

Quote from: vdeane on March 14, 2022, 01:04:31 PM
I'm surprised that nobody mentioned that credit scored actually go down when paying off a loan because it decreases one's variety of credit.  Apparently paid off accounts don't count, whereas they would if it was purely an indicator of how well one can handle debt.

It's been a few years for me since I paid off a loan, but I think the actual decrease is very minimal.  If someone is on the line between good and fair, or excellent and good, it may affect them. But otherwise any actual decrease isn't noteworthy.  Credit utilization when someone pays for an expensive trip on their credit card, or does a lot of Christmas/Holiday shopping, has the same effect with a small decrease on the credit score. Once that payment is made to reduce/eliminate the balance, the score pops back up.

Quote from: vdeane on March 14, 2022, 01:04:31 PM
I'm surprised that nobody mentioned that credit scored actually go down when paying off a loan because it decreases one's variety of credit.  Apparently paid off accounts don't count, whereas they would if it was purely an indicator of how well one can handle debt.

It can, but not inherently. And paying it off will still be indicated on a credit report which is to your advantage.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 01:52:32 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2022, 12:41:20 PM
A correlation doesn't have to be a direct one in order to be useful to the actuaries.

This.  :coffee:

See also: Life Insurance Policies.

If someone wants a policy with a significant payout, the company producing your policy will want to know your current health and potential health issues.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 14, 2022, 01:56:15 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 01:52:32 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2022, 12:41:20 PM
A correlation doesn't have to be a direct one in order to be useful to the actuaries.

This.  :coffee:

See also: Life Insurance Policies.

If someone wants a policy with a significant payout, the company producing your policy will want to know your current health and potential health issues.

You mean Colonial Penn won't write someone a $2M policy for $9.95 a month if they smoke 3 packs a day, live in a converted uranium mine, and bathe in Liquid Wrench? That is so unfair.  :D

Heck, your gender affects your car insurance rate.  Why shouldn't your credit history?

Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2022, 02:14:15 PM
Heck, your gender affects your car insurance rate.  Why shouldn't your credit history?

Gender typically has a small effect, but age has a very large effect, and one that I would argue should be considered discriminatory (at least based on all the other protected classes out there).

Instead of age, insurers should have to use the number of years you have been licensed.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 02:18:04 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2022, 02:14:15 PM
Heck, your gender affects your car insurance rate.  Why shouldn't your credit history?

Gender typically has a small effect, but age has a very large effect, and one that I would argue should be considered discriminatory (at least based on all the other protected classes out there).

Instead of age, insurers should have to use the number of years you have been licensed.

Oh, I don't know.  Life experience in general tends to affect one's decision-making, even without taking into consideration how long one has had a license.

Got a wife and kids at home?  Chances are, you'll be less likely to make risky moves.  Etc.

Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2022, 02:20:19 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 02:18:04 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2022, 02:14:15 PM
Heck, your gender affects your car insurance rate.  Why shouldn't your credit history?

Gender typically has a small effect, but age has a very large effect, and one that I would argue should be considered discriminatory (at least based on all the other protected classes out there).

Instead of age, insurers should have to use the number of years you have been licensed.

Oh, I don't know.  Life experience in general tends to affect one's decision-making, even without taking into consideration how long one has had a license.

Got a wife and kids at home?  Chances are, you'll be less likely to make risky moves.  Etc.

Except in many industries marital status and parental status are already protected classes, ie. no consideration may be given of either.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 02:24:16 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2022, 02:20:19 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 02:18:04 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2022, 02:14:15 PM
Heck, your gender affects your car insurance rate.  Why shouldn't your credit history?

Gender typically has a small effect, but age has a very large effect, and one that I would argue should be considered discriminatory (at least based on all the other protected classes out there).

Instead of age, insurers should have to use the number of years you have been licensed.

Oh, I don't know.  Life experience in general tends to affect one's decision-making, even without taking into consideration how long one has had a license.

Got a wife and kids at home?  Chances are, you'll be less likely to make risky moves.  Etc.

Except in many industries marital status and parental status are already protected classes, ie. no consideration may be given of either.

As is gender.

Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2022, 02:25:42 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 02:24:16 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2022, 02:20:19 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 02:18:04 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2022, 02:14:15 PM
Heck, your gender affects your car insurance rate.  Why shouldn't your credit history?

Gender typically has a small effect, but age has a very large effect, and one that I would argue should be considered discriminatory (at least based on all the other protected classes out there).

Instead of age, insurers should have to use the number of years you have been licensed.

Oh, I don't know.  Life experience in general tends to affect one's decision-making, even without taking into consideration how long one has had a license.

Got a wife and kids at home?  Chances are, you'll be less likely to make risky moves.  Etc.

Except in many industries marital status and parental status are already protected classes, ie. no consideration may be given of either.

As is gender.

Right. And insurance is less regulated them some, allowing the use of these.
The reason gender is mostly allowed in Auto insurance still is because it is used to charge men more, if it were the other way around a law would have been passed by now. I do think California might have tried one though, or maybe they did.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 02:18:04 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2022, 02:14:15 PM
Heck, your gender affects your car insurance rate.  Why shouldn't your credit history?

Gender typically has a small effect

No it doesn't, and if it didn't, then insurers wouldn't fight tooth and nail to use it for underwriting purposes

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 02:18:04 PMbut age has a very large effect, and one that I would argue should be considered discriminatory (at least based on all the other protected classes out there).

...because you'll be old one day, and you don't want to be discriminated against?

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 02:18:04 PMInstead of age, insurers should have to use the number of years you have been licensed.

Number of years licensed has nothing to do with anything - a 30-year-old who has been driving for a year is going to be as cautious as a 30-year-old who has been driving for 14-15 years, maybe even more.  And I am 100% fine with older drivers being charged more for auto insurance.

Quote from: abefroman329 on March 14, 2022, 02:45:16 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 02:18:04 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2022, 02:14:15 PM
Heck, your gender affects your car insurance rate.  Why shouldn't your credit history?

Gender typically has a small effect

No it doesn't, and if it didn't, then insurers wouldn't fight tooth and nail to use it for underwriting purposes

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 02:18:04 PMbut age has a very large effect, and one that I would argue should be considered discriminatory (at least based on all the other protected classes out there).

...because you'll be old one day, and you don't want to be discriminated against?

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 02:18:04 PMInstead of age, insurers should have to use the number of years you have been licensed.

Number of years licensed has nothing to do with anything - a 30-year-old who has been driving for a year is going to be as cautious as a 30-year-old who has been driving for 14-15 years, maybe even more.  And I am 100% fine with older drivers being charged more for auto insurance.

Yes the effect is small. You want to prove it to yourself? Go on some of the insurance sites and get a quote. Do an identical profile except change the gender in each. You get very minor differences.

No, more because it is inconsistent that all of these other hyper restrictive laws limit what variables firms can use, while pricing auto insurance on age is not.

Incorrect. A 30 year old with 1 year of experience is far more likely to get into an accident than a 30 year old with 15 years of experience. New drivers are not as skilled handling the vehicle, navigating traffic, etc. How "cautious" someone drives is not what age is proxying, age is proxying experience behind the wheel. Because most people learn to drive when they are younger, it is used to account for that new driver risk. In some cases older drivers pay a bit more (but nowhere near the premium of younger drivers) mainly due to assumptions about neurological decline, which are well founded.  But trying to proxy "cautiousness" with age does not work, because it is far more dependent on personality than anything.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 03:12:20 PMYes the effect is small. You want to prove it to yourself? Go on some of the insurance sites and get a quote. Do an identical profile except change the gender in each. You get very minor differences.

I have a better idea: Go get a quote and show it to me.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 03:12:20 PMNo, more because it is inconsistent that all of these other hyper restrictive laws limit what variables firms can use, while pricing auto insurance on age is not.

That's just a fancy way of saying "I don't like it when people discriminate against me, but everyone else can go to hell."

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 03:12:20 PMHow "cautious" someone drives is not what age is proxying, age is proxying experience behind the wheel.

Correct, and gender is proxying cautiousness.  Your point?

And credit rating is proxying race.

/me ducks and runs for cover.

There's a McDonald's on US 202 just north of Wilmington that is right up against the road (six lane 40 MPH road).  Often during lunch or PM rush hour, traffic backs up into the street.  The sign you see in this GSV to not stop in the roadway is widely ignored.

https://goo.gl/maps/pmu8eS9MqhVn1ZLN8

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 14, 2022, 01:53:21 PM

Quote from: skluth on March 14, 2022, 11:32:58 AM
...Open a bank account; you get a credit score...Regularly pay your car insurance; you get a credit score...

While it probably varies among banking institutions, bank accounts and insurance policies often are *not* reported to credit agencies.

Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2022, 11:40:35 AM
That's my issue.

"FICO is good for you."

"Ok, let me see how it's calculated."

"No.  Just take our word for it and any future need for debt will depend upon it."

While the exact number will vary among even the different reporting agencies, basically, you pay your bills on time, your score goes up. Utilize minimal money on your credit, your score goes up. The longer you maintain a credit history, your score goes up.

If someone has some late payments, constantly bump up against your credit limits or declared bankruptcy, your score goes down.

People know their past history.  If they say their score shouldn't matter, then chances are they have a history that tells creditors it does matter.

Credit agencies have been using these scores for decades. Creditors have relied on those scores for decades. They are tried and true for a high percentage of their business.

You just used more words to say what I criticized and summarized what the credit bureaus say...

Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2022, 03:56:45 PM

You just used more words to say what I criticized and summarized what the credit bureaus say...

Which is no different than pricing anything else. There isn't a burger company out there that'll tell you the formula into pricing a burger for sale.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 14, 2022, 04:15:53 PM

Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2022, 03:56:45 PM

You just used more words to say what I criticized and summarized what the credit bureaus say...

Which is no different than pricing anything else. There isn't a burger company out there that'll tell you the formula into pricing a burger for sale.

Pfft. Ingredients, yes.

Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2022, 04:57:25 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 14, 2022, 04:15:53 PM

Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2022, 03:56:45 PM

You just used more words to say what I criticized and summarized what the credit bureaus say...

Which is no different than pricing anything else. There isn't a burger company out there that'll tell you the formula into pricing a burger for sale.

Pfft. Ingredients, yes.

And?

Quote from: kphoger on March 14, 2022, 03:23:19 PM
And credit rating is proxying race.

/me ducks and runs for cover.

Except it doesn't. And every firm using any kind of model that takes it into consideration knows that because variables have to be checked to be sure they don't proxy a protected class.

Quote from: UCFKnights on March 14, 2022, 01:56:56 AM

Quote from: 1 on March 13, 2022, 08:07:29 PM
I oppose smartphone-only deals (and smartphone-only vaccination cards, etc.), but for an entirely different reason from HighwayStar: Not everyone is able to afford a smartphone, and even for the majority that do have one, it could be lost, in need of repair, or at 0% battery.

But the smartphone deals are given by the companies because it literally costs less for them to take the order, discounts shouldn't be given to customers who save companies money? Incentives 101 here

You're missing the much bigger reason. App-only deals are given because when you install their app on your phone you're giving them all sorts of juicy valuable data about you if you don't have the wherewithal to block permissions (and most people won't). They'll know where you live, they'll know where you work, they'll know if you walk into one of their competitors' stores, they'll know who you're hanging out with if your phone spends a bunch of time near someone else's phone who also has the app, etc.

Indeed, whenever any company wants you to install their app... this is generally why. Your smartphone is a personal homing beacon tracking your every move and they want access to that info.

This discussion of credit scores and their uses and abuses has been interesting.  I agree that in general, systematic compilation and assessment of credit files is necessary in order to have a functioning lending industry.  But it does not follow that the algorithms for calculating credit scores should be opaque or unregulated.  Credit reporting itself is highly regulated.

I don't think it's realistic for a consumer to expect there to be a regulation to address every conceivable fairness argument, any more than it is for lenders to expect to operate without any oversight at all.  So much of this is up for grabs and is contingent on political arbitrage, with results that vary (often radically) from state to state.

Quote from: Duke87 on March 14, 2022, 07:01:49 PM

Quote from: UCFKnights on March 14, 2022, 01:56:56 AM

Quote from: 1 on March 13, 2022, 08:07:29 PM
I oppose smartphone-only deals (and smartphone-only vaccination cards, etc.), but for an entirely different reason from HighwayStar: Not everyone is able to afford a smartphone, and even for the majority that do have one, it could be lost, in need of repair, or at 0% battery.

But the smartphone deals are given by the companies because it literally costs less for them to take the order, discounts shouldn't be given to customers who save companies money? Incentives 101 here

You're missing the much bigger reason. App-only deals are given because when you install their app on your phone you're giving them all sorts of juicy valuable data about you if you don't have the wherewithal to block permissions (and most people won't). They'll know where you live, they'll know where you work, they'll know if you walk into one of their competitors' stores, they'll know who you're hanging out with if your phone spends a bunch of time near someone else's phone who also has the app, etc.

Indeed, whenever any company wants you to install their app... this is generally why. Your smartphone is a personal homing beacon tracking your every move and they want access to that info.

This is actually the correct answer on that one. Its not about any savings in ordering or crap like that.

Quote from: J N Winkler on March 14, 2022, 07:25:52 PM
This discussion of credit scores and their uses and abuses has been interesting.  I agree that in general, systematic compilation and assessment of credit files is necessary in order to have a functioning lending industry.  But it does not follow that the algorithms for calculating credit scores should be opaque or unregulated.  Credit reporting itself is highly regulated.

I don't think it's realistic for a consumer to expect there to be a regulation to address every conceivable fairness argument, any more than it is for lenders to expect to operate without any oversight at all.  So much of this is up for grabs and is contingent on political arbitrage, with results that vary (often radically) from state to state.

The algorithms are heavily regulated by extension from the reporting regulations, underwriting regulations, etc.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 14, 2022, 07:25:55 PM

Quote from: Duke87 on March 14, 2022, 07:01:49 PM

Quote from: UCFKnights on March 14, 2022, 01:56:56 AM

Quote from: 1 on March 13, 2022, 08:07:29 PM
I oppose smartphone-only deals (and smartphone-only vaccination cards, etc.), but for an entirely different reason from HighwayStar: Not everyone is able to afford a smartphone, and even for the majority that do have one, it could be lost, in need of repair, or at 0% battery.

But the smartphone deals are given by the companies because it literally costs less for them to take the order, discounts shouldn't be given to customers who save companies money? Incentives 101 here

You're missing the much bigger reason. App-only deals are given because when you install their app on your phone you're giving them all sorts of juicy valuable data about you if you don't have the wherewithal to block permissions (and most people won't). They'll know where you live, they'll know where you work, they'll know if you walk into one of their competitors' stores, they'll know who you're hanging out with if your phone spends a bunch of time near someone else's phone who also has the app, etc.

Indeed, whenever any company wants you to install their app... this is generally why. Your smartphone is a personal homing beacon tracking your every move and they want access to that info.

This is actually the correct answer on that one. Its not about any savings in ordering or crap like that.

There's a useful saying everyone needs to remember: If it's not clear to you how an app developer makes money by offering a "free" service, it means YOU are the product.

I don't think fast-food app developers are generally interested in such fine-grained data as GPS tracing. That sort of thing tends to be most interesting to the sellers of advertising, not the advertisers themselves. Advertisers want to use that data to limit their ad spend to likely customers only. Once you install an app, they already know you're a likely customer.

Getting a customer to install an app has plenty of other benefits, though:

- collecting data about all of the customer's purchases into a single customer profile, which can then be used for analytics and marketing information
- enforcing customer loyalty by offering rewards programs based on the customer profile
- discouraging customer disloyalty (if you have the Burger King app you may be more likely to visit it than restaurants you don't have the app for)
- ability to send push notifications
- using the GPS to direct the customer to the nearest location

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 14, 2022, 09:23:39 PM
I don't think fast-food app developers are generally interested in such fine-grained data as GPS tracing. That sort of thing tends to be most interesting to the sellers of advertising, not the advertisers themselves. Advertisers want to use that data to limit their ad spend to likely customers only. Once you install an app, they already know you're a likely customer.

Getting a customer to install an app has plenty of other benefits, though:

- collecting data about all of the customer's purchases into a single customer profile, which can then be used for analytics and marketing information
- enforcing customer loyalty by offering rewards programs based on the customer profile
- discouraging customer disloyalty (if you have the Burger King app you may be more likely to visit it than restaurants you don't have the app for)
- ability to send push notifications
- using the GPS to direct the customer to the nearest location

I personally kill all apps manually whenever I'm not using them, mainly to prevent them from tracking me if they ask for location info.  At least most of them respect my killing (Force Stop) of them, and don't restart unless I reactivate them myself.

Quote from: rickmastfan67 on February 23, 2022, 11:32:26 PM

Quote from: CardInLex on February 23, 2022, 09:34:24 AM
Most fast food places here in Louisville are still drive thru only. I suspect that some will never reopen their dining rooms. (Fine by me).

We're finally getting some opened inside here in the Pittsburgh area for dine-in.

McDonald's was the first last year, but they've had a few times where they closed the inside for awhile again, and then reopened.  But as of today, they are open inside.

Taco Bell was the next to fully reopen inside, however, their hours aren't constant.  I've gone there once @ 12:30PM, and the inside is closed, but hitting them up another day at 5:30PM and they're open inside.  It's been hit and miss, but they've been getting my business as of late as long as they're open inside, as I rather be able to stretch my legs while sitting down and eating instead of having them cramped inside of the car.

Wendy's has (well, at least the one I can check) is 'partially' open inside.  You can go in and order, but you can't sit and eat inside yet.

Arby's is still drive-thru only.  However, I did run across one that was open inside in the South Hills of Pittsburgh one day, unlike my local one.  My local one also has the worst hours too.  They had been only open till 8PM for quite some time (c19 hours), but only recently, changed to 9PM (compared to Taco Bell being normally open till 11PM or later in the drive-thru just across the street).  This is a location that used to be open till 1AM (drive-thru) in the past.  Plus, my local Arby's HAD been the #1 store in Pittsburgh in sales.  Can't see that being the case anymore with their messed up hours, and sometimes slow service as of late.

UPDATE: Wendy's JUST reopened inside today.  Found out by dumb luck by driving by it and seeing somebody sitting inside at the window that wasn't dressed in a Wendy's uniform.  So, ate there today for lunch. :)  Finally got my first Frosty Float in just over 2 years (drink + Jr Vanilla Frosty).  :clap:

Quote from: rickmastfan67 on March 15, 2022, 12:12:44 AM

Quote from: rickmastfan67 on February 23, 2022, 11:32:26 PM

Quote from: CardInLex on February 23, 2022, 09:34:24 AM
Most fast food places here in Louisville are still drive thru only. I suspect that some will never reopen their dining rooms. (Fine by me).

We're finally getting some opened inside here in the Pittsburgh area for dine-in.

McDonald's was the first last year, but they've had a few times where they closed the inside for awhile again, and then reopened.  But as of today, they are open inside.

Taco Bell was the next to fully reopen inside, however, their hours aren't constant.  I've gone there once @ 12:30PM, and the inside is closed, but hitting them up another day at 5:30PM and they're open inside.  It's been hit and miss, but they've been getting my business as of late as long as they're open inside, as I rather be able to stretch my legs while sitting down and eating instead of having them cramped inside of the car.

Wendy's has (well, at least the one I can check) is 'partially' open inside.  You can go in and order, but you can't sit and eat inside yet.

Arby's is still drive-thru only.  However, I did run across one that was open inside in the South Hills of Pittsburgh one day, unlike my local one.  My local one also has the worst hours too.  They had been only open till 8PM for quite some time (c19 hours), but only recently, changed to 9PM (compared to Taco Bell being normally open till 11PM or later in the drive-thru just across the street).  This is a location that used to be open till 1AM (drive-thru) in the past.  Plus, my local Arby's HAD been the #1 store in Pittsburgh in sales.  Can't see that being the case anymore with their messed up hours, and sometimes slow service as of late.

UPDATE: Wendy's JUST reopened inside today.  Found out by dumb luck by driving by it and seeing somebody sitting inside at the window that wasn't dressed in a Wendy's uniform.  So, ate there today for lunch. :)  Finally got my first Frosty Float in just over 2 years (drink + Jr Vanilla Frosty).  :clap:

See if it is consistent or not. I have some that are open and closed at random intervals with no way of knowing until you try the door.

For the most part any dining rooms in the Twin Cities that aren't fully reopened at this point are due to staffing issues, not COVID.

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 15, 2022, 12:43:02 AM
For the most part any dining rooms in the Twin Cities that aren't fully reopened at this point are due to staffing issues, not COVID.

I think that has been true most places for months now, but they keep using COVID as an excuse where possible.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 12:41:03 AM

Quote from: rickmastfan67 on March 15, 2022, 12:12:44 AM

Quote from: rickmastfan67 on February 23, 2022, 11:32:26 PM

Quote from: CardInLex on February 23, 2022, 09:34:24 AM
Most fast food places here in Louisville are still drive thru only. I suspect that some will never reopen their dining rooms. (Fine by me).

We're finally getting some opened inside here in the Pittsburgh area for dine-in.

McDonald's was the first last year, but they've had a few times where they closed the inside for awhile again, and then reopened.  But as of today, they are open inside.

Taco Bell was the next to fully reopen inside, however, their hours aren't constant.  I've gone there once @ 12:30PM, and the inside is closed, but hitting them up another day at 5:30PM and they're open inside.  It's been hit and miss, but they've been getting my business as of late as long as they're open inside, as I rather be able to stretch my legs while sitting down and eating instead of having them cramped inside of the car.

Wendy's has (well, at least the one I can check) is 'partially' open inside.  You can go in and order, but you can't sit and eat inside yet.

Arby's is still drive-thru only.  However, I did run across one that was open inside in the South Hills of Pittsburgh one day, unlike my local one.  My local one also has the worst hours too.  They had been only open till 8PM for quite some time (c19 hours), but only recently, changed to 9PM (compared to Taco Bell being normally open till 11PM or later in the drive-thru just across the street).  This is a location that used to be open till 1AM (drive-thru) in the past.  Plus, my local Arby's HAD been the #1 store in Pittsburgh in sales.  Can't see that being the case anymore with their messed up hours, and sometimes slow service as of late.

UPDATE: Wendy's JUST reopened inside today.  Found out by dumb luck by driving by it and seeing somebody sitting inside at the window that wasn't dressed in a Wendy's uniform.  So, ate there today for lunch. :)  Finally got my first Frosty Float in just over 2 years (drink + Jr Vanilla Frosty).  :clap:

See if it is consistent or not. I have some that are open and closed at random intervals with no way of knowing until you try the door.

Very true.  But they did take down the sign they had on both doors saying they were only open inside for takeout @ Wendy's.  So, promising sign.  Plus, they took down all the 'Covid' shields they had at the counters.  That, to me, says they plan on staying open inside once again.

I was sort of hoping places were going to keep the covid shields after the pandemic. They weren't really that much of a pain, it would be helpful to keep from passing around non-covid germs, and it was nice knowing there was some kind of physical barrier to keep crazy people from being able to hop the counter or reach across and fuck around with shit on the cashier side (the latter was a constant problem at my old job).

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 12:52:49 AM

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 15, 2022, 12:43:02 AM
For the most part any dining rooms in the Twin Cities that aren't fully reopened at this point are due to staffing issues, not COVID.

I think that has been true most places for months now, but they keep using COVID as an excuse where possible.

And "staffing issues" often means, we can't make money if we pay people enough to get them to work here.

Quote from: GaryV on March 15, 2022, 07:18:39 AM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 12:52:49 AM

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 15, 2022, 12:43:02 AM
For the most part any dining rooms in the Twin Cities that aren't fully reopened at this point are due to staffing issues, not COVID.

I think that has been true most places for months now, but they keep using COVID as an excuse where possible.

And "staffing issues" often means, we can't make money if we pay people enough to get them to work here.

That pretty much goes without saying.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 12:52:49 AM

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 15, 2022, 12:43:02 AM
For the most part any dining rooms in the Twin Cities that aren't fully reopened at this point are due to staffing issues, not COVID.

I think that has been true most places for months now, but they keep using COVID as an excuse where possible.

At a Taco Bell near me, which is open for drive-through only, the cashier recently told us they were limiting orders to one item only.  I assume that's because there was only one or two people on staff in the entire place.  Not going back there anytime soon.

Quote from: Duke87 on March 14, 2022, 07:01:49 PM

Quote from: UCFKnights on March 14, 2022, 01:56:56 AM

Quote from: 1 on March 13, 2022, 08:07:29 PM
I oppose smartphone-only deals (and smartphone-only vaccination cards, etc.), but for an entirely different reason from HighwayStar: Not everyone is able to afford a smartphone, and even for the majority that do have one, it could be lost, in need of repair, or at 0% battery.

But the smartphone deals are given by the companies because it literally costs less for them to take the order, discounts shouldn't be given to customers who save companies money? Incentives 101 here

You're missing the much bigger reason. App-only deals are given because when you install their app on your phone you're giving them all sorts of juicy valuable data about you if you don't have the wherewithal to block permissions (and most people won't). They'll know where you live, they'll know where you work, they'll know if you walk into one of their competitors' stores, they'll know who you're hanging out with if your phone spends a bunch of time near someone else's phone who also has the app, etc.

Indeed, whenever any company wants you to install their app... this is generally why. Your smartphone is a personal homing beacon tracking your every move and they want access to that info.

None of this really bothers me all that much. 

And I dislike app-only anything for a different reason:  I no longer use a smartphone.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 14, 2022, 01:53:21 PM

Quote from: skluth on March 14, 2022, 11:32:58 AM
...Open a bank account; you get a credit score...Regularly pay your car insurance; you get a credit score...

While it probably varies among banking institutions, bank accounts and insurance policies often are *not* reported to credit agencies.

Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2022, 11:40:35 AM
That's my issue.

"FICO is good for you."

"Ok, let me see how it's calculated."

"No.  Just take our word for it and any future need for debt will depend upon it."

While the exact number will vary among even the different reporting agencies, basically, you pay your bills on time, your score goes up. Utilize minimal money on your credit, your score goes up. The longer you maintain a credit history, your score goes up.

If someone has some late payments, constantly bump up against your credit limits or declared bankruptcy, your score goes down.

People know their past history.  If they say their score shouldn't matter, then chances are they have a history that tells creditors it does matter.

Credit agencies have been using these scores for decades. Creditors have relied on those scores for decades. They are tried and true for a high percentage of their business.

Quote from: vdeane on March 14, 2022, 01:04:31 PM
I'm surprised that nobody mentioned that credit scored actually go down when paying off a loan because it decreases one's variety of credit.  Apparently paid off accounts don't count, whereas they would if it was purely an indicator of how well one can handle debt.

It's been a few years for me since I paid off a loan, but I think the actual decrease is very minimal.  If someone is on the line between good and fair, or excellent and good, it may affect them. But otherwise any actual decrease isn't noteworthy.  Credit utilization when someone pays for an expensive trip on their credit card, or does a lot of Christmas/Holiday shopping, has the same effect with a small decrease on the credit score. Once that payment is made to reduce/eliminate the balance, the score pops back up.

If you pay off a loan or a credit card balance, and close the account, your score can go down.  If you keep a credit line open, but leave it unused, it is actually very good for your credit score.  Unused credit balances show that you aren't going to spend simply to spend it.  That is why I have a couple of no fee credit cards that I no longer regularly use outside of a couple routine monthly charges.  I pay them in full each month but have the balance open.  I save my heavy use for the card that earns me the most points - which I pay in full as well.

Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 09:53:53 AM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 12:52:49 AM

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 15, 2022, 12:43:02 AM
For the most part any dining rooms in the Twin Cities that aren't fully reopened at this point are due to staffing issues, not COVID.

I think that has been true most places for months now, but they keep using COVID as an excuse where possible.

At a Taco Bell near me, which is open for drive-through only, the cashier recently told us they were limiting orders to one item only.  I assume that's because there was only one or two people on staff in the entire place.  Not going back there anytime soon.

Why on earth would they bother staying open at all then?

Quote from: webny99 on March 15, 2022, 10:52:53 AM

Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 09:53:53 AM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 12:52:49 AM

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 15, 2022, 12:43:02 AM
For the most part any dining rooms in the Twin Cities that aren't fully reopened at this point are due to staffing issues, not COVID.

I think that has been true most places for months now, but they keep using COVID as an excuse where possible.

At a Taco Bell near me, which is open for drive-through only, the cashier recently told us they were limiting orders to one item only.  I assume that's because there was only one or two people on staff in the entire place.  Not going back there anytime soon.

Why on earth would they bother staying open at all then?

The real answer is they were not authorized to limit orders that way, and corporate would probabally have a cow if they found out what they were up to. Its not a rational business decision by any means, but for a couple lazy employees that want to collect a cheque and not work it makes perfect sense.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 11:19:48 AM

Quote from: webny99 on March 15, 2022, 10:52:53 AM

Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 09:53:53 AM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 12:52:49 AM

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 15, 2022, 12:43:02 AM
For the most part any dining rooms in the Twin Cities that aren't fully reopened at this point are due to staffing issues, not COVID.

I think that has been true most places for months now, but they keep using COVID as an excuse where possible.

At a Taco Bell near me, which is open for drive-through only, the cashier recently told us they were limiting orders to one item only.  I assume that's because there was only one or two people on staff in the entire place.  Not going back there anytime soon.

Why on earth would they bother staying open at all then?

The real answer is they were not authorized to limit orders that way, and corporate would probabally have a cow if they found out what they were up to. Its not a rational business decision by any means, but for a couple lazy employees that want to collect a cheque and not work it makes perfect sense.

The staffing shortage could have been legitimate, but limiting customers to one item is obviously a terrible resolution (does this mean literally one item? what about meal combos? people with a spouse and/or kids (basically everyone)? etc.). A better solution would be to cone off the drive thru after a set number of cars, or even just telling people about the staff shortage combined with longer wait times could be a significant deterrent.

Quote from: webny99 on March 15, 2022, 11:57:55 AM
The staffing shortage could have been legitimate, but limiting customers to one item is obviously a terrible resolution (does this mean literally one item? what about meal combos? people with a spouse and/or kids (basically everyone)? etc.). A better solution would be to cone off the drive thru after a set number of cars, or even just telling people about the staff shortage combined with longer wait times could be a significant deterrent.

Yeah, all five of us were in the car, picking up lunch on the way home from church.  I told her through the speaker that we had planned to order a taco party pack (12 identical tacos).  Her answer:  Sorry about that.

Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 12:01:22 PM

Quote from: webny99 on March 15, 2022, 11:57:55 AM
The staffing shortage could have been legitimate, but limiting customers to one item is obviously a terrible resolution (does this mean literally one item? what about meal combos? people with a spouse and/or kids (basically everyone)? etc.). A better solution would be to cone off the drive thru after a set number of cars, or even just telling people about the staff shortage combined with longer wait times could be a significant deterrent.

Yeah, all five of us were in the car, picking up lunch on the way home from church.  I told her through the speaker that we had planned to order a taco party pack (12 identical tacos).  Her answer:  Sorry about that.

I would report their ass to corporate.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 12:08:40 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 12:01:22 PM

Quote from: webny99 on March 15, 2022, 11:57:55 AM
The staffing shortage could have been legitimate, but limiting customers to one item is obviously a terrible resolution (does this mean literally one item? what about meal combos? people with a spouse and/or kids (basically everyone)? etc.). A better solution would be to cone off the drive thru after a set number of cars, or even just telling people about the staff shortage combined with longer wait times could be a significant deterrent.

Yeah, all five of us were in the car, picking up lunch on the way home from church.  I told her through the speaker that we had planned to order a taco party pack (12 identical tacos).  Her answer:  Sorry about that.

I would report their ass to corporate.

And leave a one-star review warning others of what happened.

This feels like they're trying to strike without actually being able to. Of course, the way it turned out, if that is the case, nobody is going to know that they're doing it in protest, so it will be for naught.

Quote from: 1 on March 15, 2022, 12:54:04 PM
This feels like they're trying to strike without actually being able to. Of course, the way it turned out, if that is the case, nobody is going to know that they're doing it in protest, so it will be for naught.

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 15, 2022, 06:04:47 AM
I was sort of hoping places were going to keep the covid shields after the pandemic. They weren't really that much of a pain, it would be helpful to keep from passing around non-covid germs, and it was nice knowing there was some kind of physical barrier to keep crazy people from being able to hop the counter or reach across and fuck around with shit on the cashier side (the latter was a constant problem at my old job).

I haven't found any places that had them that have removed them.

Quote from: hbelkins on March 15, 2022, 03:15:22 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 15, 2022, 06:04:47 AM
I was sort of hoping places were going to keep the covid shields after the pandemic. They weren't really that much of a pain, it would be helpful to keep from passing around non-covid germs, and it was nice knowing there was some kind of physical barrier to keep crazy people from being able to hop the counter or reach across and fuck around with shit on the cashier side (the latter was a constant problem at my old job).

I haven't found any places that had them that have removed them.

Home Depot and Lowe's have removed them Convenience stores also. When I start thinking about it. quite a number of places have gotten rid of the shield.

I have found the shields to be annoying when I go into a place that is overly loud with crowds and/or music and it's impossible to lean in closer to speak to and hear the cashier better.

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 15, 2022, 04:13:32 PM
I have found the shields to be annoying when I go into a place that is overly loud with crowds and/or music and it's impossible to lean in closer to speak to and hear the cashier better.

Add in face masks and a cashier who speaks too quietly, and communication is hopeless.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 11:19:48 AM

Quote from: webny99 on March 15, 2022, 10:52:53 AM

Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 09:53:53 AM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 12:52:49 AM

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 15, 2022, 12:43:02 AM
For the most part any dining rooms in the Twin Cities that aren't fully reopened at this point are due to staffing issues, not COVID.

I think that has been true most places for months now, but they keep using COVID as an excuse where possible.

At a Taco Bell near me, which is open for drive-through only, the cashier recently told us they were limiting orders to one item only.  I assume that's because there was only one or two people on staff in the entire place.  Not going back there anytime soon.

Why on earth would they bother staying open at all then?

The real answer is they were not authorized to limit orders that way, and corporate would probabally have a cow if they found out what they were up to. Its not a rational business decision by any means, but for a couple lazy employees that want to collect a cheque and not work it makes perfect sense.

tell me you've never worked a day in your life without telling me you've never worked a day in your life

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 15, 2022, 04:13:32 PM
I have found the shields to be annoying when I go into a place that is overly loud with crowds and/or music and it's impossible to lean in closer to speak to and hear the cashier better.

Usually cashiers would rather you not do that anyway. I don't want to get any closer to an unknown person than I have to be. Sure, they're probably just trying to hear me better, but I don't know if when they lean in they're going to try to steal something from my side of the counter (had that happen before) or try to grab me or something.

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 15, 2022, 05:20:01 PM

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 15, 2022, 04:13:32 PM
I have found the shields to be annoying when I go into a place that is overly loud with crowds and/or music and it's impossible to lean in closer to speak to and hear the cashier better.

Usually cashiers would rather you not do that anyway. I don't want to get any closer to an unknown person than I have to be. Sure, they're probably just trying to hear me better, but I don't know if when they lean in they're going to try to steal something from my side of the counter (had that happen before) or try to grab me or something.

If a customer can't hear the cashier, what are they supposed to do?

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 15, 2022, 05:28:19 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 15, 2022, 05:20:01 PM

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 15, 2022, 04:13:32 PM
I have found the shields to be annoying when I go into a place that is overly loud with crowds and/or music and it's impossible to lean in closer to speak to and hear the cashier better.

Usually cashiers would rather you not do that anyway. I don't want to get any closer to an unknown person than I have to be. Sure, they're probably just trying to hear me better, but I don't know if when they lean in they're going to try to steal something from my side of the counter (had that happen before) or try to grab me or something.

If a customer can't hear the cashier, what are they supposed to do?

I would much rather them make some sort of gesture or otherwise indicate that they can't hear me somehow, so I can either speak louder, write down what I'm trying to say on a post-it or something, or I can wave what I had to say off as being unimportant and not worth repeating. (Not that the last one helps sometimes. More than once I'd say some meaningless pleasantry like "Okay, everything looks good" or "Just a second while this loads on my computer" that wasn't worth repeating but the customer simply would not let me move on to the next step in what we needed to do until they successfully comprehended what I had to say, then get huffy that they wasted so much time on something unimportant.)

(Of course when it was something important I could yell it at the top of my lungs and have it on a flashing neon sign and they wouldn't listen to me.)

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 15, 2022, 06:04:47 AM
I was sort of hoping places were going to keep the covid shields after the pandemic. They weren't really that much of a pain, it would be helpful to keep from passing around non-covid germs, and it was nice knowing there was some kind of physical barrier to keep crazy people from being able to hop the counter or reach across and fuck around with shit on the cashier side (the latter was a constant problem at my old job).

The shields wouldn't have stopped any crazy people at my local Wendy's.  Especially since the opening for the employees to go behind the counter was literately 4in to the left of the cash register.  Having the shields stay up would have only slowed them down by less than a second.

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 15, 2022, 05:20:01 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 11:19:48 AM

Quote from: webny99 on March 15, 2022, 10:52:53 AM

Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 09:53:53 AM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 12:52:49 AM

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 15, 2022, 12:43:02 AM
For the most part any dining rooms in the Twin Cities that aren't fully reopened at this point are due to staffing issues, not COVID.

I think that has been true most places for months now, but they keep using COVID as an excuse where possible.

At a Taco Bell near me, which is open for drive-through only, the cashier recently told us they were limiting orders to one item only.  I assume that's because there was only one or two people on staff in the entire place.  Not going back there anytime soon.

Why on earth would they bother staying open at all then?

The real answer is they were not authorized to limit orders that way, and corporate would probabally have a cow if they found out what they were up to. Its not a rational business decision by any means, but for a couple lazy employees that want to collect a cheque and not work it makes perfect sense.

tell me you've never worked a day in your life without telling me you've never worked a day in your life

I've worked plenty trust me. And worked food service for a chunk of it. Never closed early or short serviced a customer because I felt like sitting on my hindquarters and playing on my phone.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 12:08:40 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 12:01:22 PM

Quote from: webny99 on March 15, 2022, 11:57:55 AM
The staffing shortage could have been legitimate, but limiting customers to one item is obviously a terrible resolution (does this mean literally one item? what about meal combos? people with a spouse and/or kids (basically everyone)? etc.). A better solution would be to cone off the drive thru after a set number of cars, or even just telling people about the staff shortage combined with longer wait times could be a significant deterrent.

Yeah, all five of us were in the car, picking up lunch on the way home from church.  I told her through the speaker that we had planned to order a taco party pack (12 identical tacos).  Her answer:  Sorry about that.

I would report their ass to corporate.

Yeah, that's an automatic report to corporate for sure.

Quote from: rickmastfan67 on March 15, 2022, 06:39:26 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 12:08:40 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 12:01:22 PM

Quote from: webny99 on March 15, 2022, 11:57:55 AM
The staffing shortage could have been legitimate, but limiting customers to one item is obviously a terrible resolution (does this mean literally one item? what about meal combos? people with a spouse and/or kids (basically everyone)? etc.). A better solution would be to cone off the drive thru after a set number of cars, or even just telling people about the staff shortage combined with longer wait times could be a significant deterrent.

Yeah, all five of us were in the car, picking up lunch on the way home from church.  I told her through the speaker that we had planned to order a taco party pack (12 identical tacos).  Her answer:  Sorry about that.

I would report their ass to corporate.

Yeah, that's an automatic report to corporate for sure.

Lets not forget this happened. https://www.cracked.com/article_28014_the-crazy-story-fake-burger-king-in-pittsburgh.html (https://www.cracked.com/article_28014_the-crazy-story-fake-burger-king-in-pittsburgh.html)

If you see something, say something.  :-D

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 06:36:04 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 15, 2022, 05:20:01 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 11:19:48 AM

Quote from: webny99 on March 15, 2022, 10:52:53 AM

Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 09:53:53 AM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 12:52:49 AM

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 15, 2022, 12:43:02 AM
For the most part any dining rooms in the Twin Cities that aren't fully reopened at this point are due to staffing issues, not COVID.

I think that has been true most places for months now, but they keep using COVID as an excuse where possible.

At a Taco Bell near me, which is open for drive-through only, the cashier recently told us they were limiting orders to one item only.  I assume that's because there was only one or two people on staff in the entire place.  Not going back there anytime soon.

Why on earth would they bother staying open at all then?

The real answer is they were not authorized to limit orders that way, and corporate would probabally have a cow if they found out what they were up to. Its not a rational business decision by any means, but for a couple lazy employees that want to collect a cheque and not work it makes perfect sense.

tell me you've never worked a day in your life without telling me you've never worked a day in your life

I've worked plenty trust me. And worked food service for a chunk of it. Never closed early or short serviced a customer because I felt like sitting on my hindquarters and playing on my phone.

That's the problem. You've posted enough shit here that is 100% wrong that I don't trust you. You have no credibility.

You haven't the foggiest clue about what's going on in this particular Taco Bell. It could well be that there's one person working there because everyone besides the person ordering quit, and this person is trying to offer the only semblance of service that they can actually successfully pull off. Props to them if so. What else are they supposed to do, if corporate won't adequately staff the store? "We won't give you enough people to run the store but we also won't let you close" is exactly the sort of horseshit one can expect from corporate.

We had a Burger King in our franchise where that happened more than once, except the last person left too, so there was just an entirely vacant Burger King left with the lights on, money in the till, and nobody home. Sometimes after people had already paid and not gotten their food yet. Usually when that'd happen we'd get a call from the panicked district manager asking for some manager from our store to drive down there ASAP and at least close out the register and put the money in the safe.

You are not entitled to be able to demand an order of arbitrary size at a restaurant. You don't get to unilaterally decide the terms of the business transaction just because you have the money. If the business cannot or even doesn't want to fulfill your request, that's the business's choice to make.

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 15, 2022, 07:08:55 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 06:36:04 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 15, 2022, 05:20:01 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 11:19:48 AM

Quote from: webny99 on March 15, 2022, 10:52:53 AM

Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 09:53:53 AM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 12:52:49 AM

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 15, 2022, 12:43:02 AM
For the most part any dining rooms in the Twin Cities that aren't fully reopened at this point are due to staffing issues, not COVID.

I think that has been true most places for months now, but they keep using COVID as an excuse where possible.

At a Taco Bell near me, which is open for drive-through only, the cashier recently told us they were limiting orders to one item only.  I assume that's because there was only one or two people on staff in the entire place.  Not going back there anytime soon.

Why on earth would they bother staying open at all then?

The real answer is they were not authorized to limit orders that way, and corporate would probabally have a cow if they found out what they were up to. Its not a rational business decision by any means, but for a couple lazy employees that want to collect a cheque and not work it makes perfect sense.

tell me you've never worked a day in your life without telling me you've never worked a day in your life

I've worked plenty trust me. And worked food service for a chunk of it. Never closed early or short serviced a customer because I felt like sitting on my hindquarters and playing on my phone.

That's the problem. You've posted enough shit here that is 100% wrong that I don't trust you. You have no credibility.

You haven't the foggiest clue about what's going on in this particular Taco Bell. It could well be that there's one person working there because everyone besides the person ordering quit, and this person is trying to offer the only semblance of service that they can actually successfully pull off. Props to them if so. What else are they supposed to do, if corporate won't adequately staff the store? "We won't give you enough people to run the store but we also won't let you close" is exactly the sort of horseshit one can expect from corporate.

We had a Burger King in our franchise where that happened more than once, except the last person left too, so there was just an entirely vacant Burger King left with the lights on, money in the till, and nobody home. Sometimes after people had already paid and not gotten their food yet. Usually when that'd happen we'd get a call from the panicked district manager asking for some manager from our store to drive down there ASAP and at least close out the register and put the money in the safe.

You are not entitled to be able to demand an order of arbitrary size at a restaurant. You don't get to unilaterally decide the terms of the business transaction just because you have the money. If the business cannot or even doesn't want to fulfill your request, that's the business's choice to make.

If its actually franchised the most likely outcome is corporate tells the franchisee to get it together or they will revoke the franchise.

Wrong. The actual most likely outcome is that the person working the counter trying to hold things together gets in trouble while the corporate managers who set that person up to fail suffer no consequences at all.

Apparently Jesus Chicken has gotten into trouble with the City of Santa Barbara by being the cause of backups on State Street:

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-03-14/city-of-santa-barbara-could-declare-chick-fil-a-drive-thru-a-public-nuisance

Granted, I don't know how a restaurant can really be held accountable for being too successful?

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 15, 2022, 07:37:57 PM
Apparently Jesus Chicken has gotten into trouble with the City of Santa Barbara by being the cause of backups on State Street:

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-03-14/city-of-santa-barbara-could-declare-chick-fil-a-drive-thru-a-public-nuisance

Granted, I don't know how a restaurant can really be held accountable for being too successful?

If there is a state that can manage that it will be California.

This part of the article is really intriguing though.

The city has been in talks with the store's operators for years and in 2020, the city recommended Chick-fil-A hire a security firm to manage traffic at the location.

If the issue is that there are more customers there than the drive through can process, then how is having "traffic management" going to really solve anything? Maybe make people leave gaps for other driveways or something? Which leads into another problem, that if they are actually on the city street I doubt a private security firm would have any jurisdiction to tell people what to do.

But of course this is California, and its obvious the problem is one of their own making.

Drive-through businesses are rare in Santa Barbara because the city banned the construction of new drive-through businesses more than 40 years ago. Chick-fil-A is grandfathered into its site, which was previously a Burger King drive-through that had nowhere near the same volume of traffic.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 07:42:56 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 15, 2022, 07:37:57 PM
Apparently Jesus Chicken has gotten into trouble with the City of Santa Barbara by being the cause of backups on State Street:

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-03-14/city-of-santa-barbara-could-declare-chick-fil-a-drive-thru-a-public-nuisance

Granted, I don't know how a restaurant can really be held accountable for being too successful?

If there is a state that can manage that it will be California.

This part of the article is really intriguing though.

The city has been in talks with the store's operators for years and in 2020, the city recommended Chick-fil-A hire a security firm to manage traffic at the location.

If the issue is that there are more customers there than the drive through can process, then how is having "traffic management" going to really solve anything? Maybe make people leave gaps for other driveways or something? Which leads into another problem, that if they are actually on the city street I doubt a private security firm would have any jurisdiction to tell people what to do.

But of course this is California, and its obvious the problem is one of their own making.

Drive-through businesses are rare in Santa Barbara because the city banned the construction of new drive-through businesses more than 40 years ago. Chick-fil-A is grandfathered into its site, which was previously a Burger King drive-through that had nowhere near the same volume of traffic.

Worth noting that physical space is a huge issue in Santa Barbara and the lands along Santa Barbara Channel.  All the same, the easy solution would to be to build a second location to take advantage of overflow business.  Santa Barbara seems to have made that extremely difficult but I do wonder if a business case for nearby Goleta could be made?

A friend of mine went to the Krystal drive-thru near me about a week ago late at night. When he pulled up to the speaker, the woman on the other end said she was the only one working in the entire restaurant and so couldn't serve him anything.

Quote from: US 89 on March 15, 2022, 11:12:09 PM
A friend of mine went to the Krystal drive-thru near me about a week ago late at night. When he pulled up to the speaker, the woman on the other end said she was the only one working in the entire restaurant and so couldn't serve him anything.

I had some friends a few months ago that reported going to a Burger King, waiting in line for the better part of 30 minutes, only for an employee to come out and say they just decided to close for the night.
These types of problems seem to be getting worse.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 06:36:04 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 15, 2022, 05:20:01 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 11:19:48 AM

Quote from: webny99 on March 15, 2022, 10:52:53 AM

Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 09:53:53 AM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 12:52:49 AM

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 15, 2022, 12:43:02 AM
For the most part any dining rooms in the Twin Cities that aren't fully reopened at this point are due to staffing issues, not COVID.

I think that has been true most places for months now, but they keep using COVID as an excuse where possible.

At a Taco Bell near me, which is open for drive-through only, the cashier recently told us they were limiting orders to one item only.  I assume that's because there was only one or two people on staff in the entire place.  Not going back there anytime soon.

Why on earth would they bother staying open at all then?

The real answer is they were not authorized to limit orders that way, and corporate would probabally have a cow if they found out what they were up to. Its not a rational business decision by any means, but for a couple lazy employees that want to collect a cheque and not work it makes perfect sense.

tell me you've never worked a day in your life without telling me you've never worked a day in your life

I've worked plenty trust me. And worked food service for a chunk of it. Never closed early or short serviced a customer because I felt like sitting on my hindquarters and playing on my phone.

tell me you've never worked a day in your life without telling me you've never worked a day in your life

Back on topic...

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/trending/california-city-may-declare-chick-fil-a-public-nuisance/LFWX3VMSVREUHHXCSFCXUUWGOE/?utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3O7i1AbsW7BQC4RItaMt4YgCdtRezb4S5BM3FxMmNG3avkmB7IA1k6Jkw

EDIT: This is the same one referenced above and the TV station's story actually references the LAT story.

Quote from: hbelkins on March 16, 2022, 10:58:33 AM
Back on topic...

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/trending/california-city-may-declare-chick-fil-a-public-nuisance/LFWX3VMSVREUHHXCSFCXUUWGOE/?utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3O7i1AbsW7BQC4RItaMt4YgCdtRezb4S5BM3FxMmNG3avkmB7IA1k6Jkw

Interesting - I wonder if insurance companies noticed how many claims they were having to pay thanks to this traffic and made a stink with the local authorities.

Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 09:53:53 AMAt a Taco Bell near me, which is open for drive-through only, the cashier recently told us they were limiting orders to one item only.  I assume that's because there was only one or two people on staff in the entire place.  Not going back there anytime soon.

Out of interest, which one was that?

Here in northwest Wichita, by far the most troublesome of our Saturday fast-food regulars has been the Popeye's near Central and West--there are different faces behind the counter nearly every time I go in (a sign of high turnover) and they have turned off the customer-facing screens at each till so that you cannot tell by sight whether they're ringing up a dinner (no drinks) as a combo (drinks at a dollar extra).

Quote from: J N Winkler on March 16, 2022, 01:25:44 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 09:53:53 AM
At a Taco Bell near me, which is open for drive-through only, the cashier recently told us they were limiting orders to one item only.  I assume that's because there was only one or two people on staff in the entire place.  Not going back there anytime soon.

Out of interest, which one was that?

Here in northwest Wichita, by far the most troublesome of our Saturday fast-food regulars has been the Popeye's near Central and West--there are different faces behind the counter nearly every time I go in (a sign of high turnover) and they have turned off the customer-facing screens at each till so that you cannot tell by sight whether they're ringing up a dinner (no drinks) as a combo (drinks at a dollar extra).

Across from Via Christi on Harry.

I didn't use to see the high turnover you speak of.  When dining in, it was often the same lady I was used to seeing.  Google Maps currently shows it as open for dine-in, but I haven't gone inside since before the pandemic, so I don't know if even she is still working there.  But I don't even want to go back now, considering the bad taste left in my mouth.

...

And, before anyone makes a comment about Taco Bell and bad tastes ... Yes, I know Taco Bell isn't authentic Mexican food:  I've spent a total of probably two or three months in Mexico over the years, and most of those meals were home-cooking.  Yes, I know it's just cheap American-Mexican food.  Yes, I still enjoy eating there.  I don't go there for an authentic Mexican experience.  I go there for an easy way to feed a family of five after church sometimes, or to get a cheap bean and rice burrito or a Mexican pizza.  Heck, I actually prefer Taco Bell's quesadillas to those I've eaten in Mexico.

Quote from: kphoger on March 16, 2022, 02:18:30 PM

And, before anyone makes a comment about Taco Bell and bad tastes ... Yes, I know Taco Bell isn't authentic Mexican food:  I've spent a total of probably two or three months in Mexico over the years, and most of those meals were home-cooking.  Yes, I know it's just cheap American-Mexican food.  Yes, I still enjoy eating there.  I don't go there for an authentic Mexican experience.  I go there for an easy way to feed a family of five after church sometimes, or to get a cheap bean and rice burrito or a Mexican pizza.  Heck, I actually prefer Taco Bell's quesadillas to those I've eaten in Mexico.

I don't think there is anything wrong with Taco Bell, its exactly what it advertises, fast food Mexican. Complaining that that Taco Bell is not "authentic" is like saying McDonald's burgers are not "authentic" because the hamburger is not made in Hamburg.
I find I don't go there often, mainly because they don't serve Coke products, but they are actually a great way to add variety on a road trip after you have had your fill of hamburgers.
Would also make good service plaza restaurants, fast and cheap.

Quote from: kphoger on March 16, 2022, 02:18:30 PMAcross from Via Christi on Harry.

Thanks.  It surprises me they are having so much trouble.  They apparently have the highest rating (3.8, per Google) of any Taco Bell in Wichita, and I'd have thought they'd be doing land-office business with St. Joe's across the street.

Quote from: J N Winkler on March 16, 2022, 04:11:33 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 16, 2022, 02:18:30 PM
Across from Via Christi on Harry.

Thanks.  It surprises me they are having so much trouble.  They apparently have the highest rating (3.8, per Google) of any Taco Bell in Wichita, and I'd have thought they'd be doing land-office business with St. Joe's across the street.

Their lobby was closed to dine-in longer than many other restaurants, too, I noticed.

In the past, I never had any problem with them.

Santa Barbara wants to declare CFA a "public nuisance" for causing 90-minute backups onto the street on weekdays and 155-minute backups on Saturdays.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chick-fil-a-fast-food-california-city-public-nuisance-traffic/

Quote from: Bruce on March 16, 2022, 07:34:14 PM
Santa Barbara wants to declare CFA a "public nuisance" for causing 90-minute backups onto the street on weekdays and 155-minute backups on Saturdays.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chick-fil-a-fast-food-california-city-public-nuisance-traffic/

We hit on that one above a little bit already.  Apparently the space they occupy was inherited from a previous fast location.  I'm still confused why this is the restaurant's problem to deal with. 

Is the drive-thru configured in a way that they can reconfigure it and make it longer entirely within the parking lot?

Quote from: 1 on March 16, 2022, 07:44:22 PM
Is the drive-thru configured in a way that they can reconfigure it and make it longer entirely within the parking lot?

Unlikely, the drive thru is already one way and very short by modern restaurant standards.  A major alteration would likely require a new building.  Either way, that isn't going to completely solve 90 plus minutes of traffic.  If anything that just speaks to pent up demand which could be funneled into a second location. The problem there is the city is infamously difficult for permit new drive thru location construction.

Quote from: kphoger on March 16, 2022, 02:18:30 PM
When dining in, it was often the same lady I was used to seeing.  Google Maps currently shows it as open for dine-in, but I haven't gone inside since before the pandemic, so I don't know if even she is still working there.  But I don't even want to go back now, considering the bad taste left in my mouth.

Believe it or not, one of the same managers is still at my local Taco Bell that was there before C19.  The first time I went in there after they had opened the Dine-In back up, she even remembered my name!

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 15, 2022, 07:37:57 PM
Apparently Jesus Chicken has gotten into trouble with the City of Santa Barbara by being the cause of backups on State Street:

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-03-14/city-of-santa-barbara-could-declare-chick-fil-a-drive-thru-a-public-nuisance

Granted, I don't know how a restaurant can really be held accountable for being too successful?

Quote from: hbelkins on March 16, 2022, 10:58:33 AM
Back on topic...

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/trending/california-city-may-declare-chick-fil-a-public-nuisance/LFWX3VMSVREUHHXCSFCXUUWGOE/?utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3O7i1AbsW7BQC4RItaMt4YgCdtRezb4S5BM3FxMmNG3avkmB7IA1k6Jkw

EDIT: This is the same one referenced above and the TV station's story actually references the LAT story.

Quote from: Bruce on March 16, 2022, 07:34:14 PM
Santa Barbara wants to declare CFA a "public nuisance" for causing 90-minute backups onto the street on weekdays and 155-minute backups on Saturdays.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chick-fil-a-fast-food-california-city-public-nuisance-traffic/

Anyone else?

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 15, 2022, 07:42:56 PM
If the issue is that there are more customers there than the drive through can process, then how is having "traffic management" going to really solve anything? Maybe make people leave gaps for other driveways or something? Which leads into another problem, that if they are actually on the city street I doubt a private security firm would have any jurisdiction to tell people what to do.

How do megachurches do it?  Are there city police officers directing traffic, or are there private entities doing so?

Quote from: kphoger on March 16, 2022, 08:11:12 PM

How do megachurches do it?  Are there city police officers directing traffic, or are there private entities doing so?

Southeast Christian here in Louisville hires off duty police officers to direct traffic at most of their campuses. A lot of times they set the signals to flash to direct traffic in and out.

Quote from: CardInLex on March 17, 2022, 12:02:49 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 16, 2022, 08:11:12 PM

How do megachurches do it?  Are there city police officers directing traffic, or are there private entities doing so?

Southeast Christian here in Louisville hires off duty police officers to direct traffic at most of their campuses. A lot of times they set the signals to flash to direct traffic in and out.

I thought back in the day there were various special provisions for churches, maybe we should adopt some special traffic laws for churches, and chicken restaurants endorsed by the savior.

Start ticketing drivers for obstructing traffic and you'll see the problem sort itself out. The chicken might be good, but is it $150-and-points-on-your-license good?

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2022, 12:26:54 PM
Start ticketing drivers for obstructing traffic and you'll see the problem sort itself out. The chicken might be good, but is it $150-and-points-on-your-license good?

If a motorist is in the proper lane waiting to make a legal turn, there's no obstruction of traffic. If I'm waiting to turn because of a pedestrian, is that obstruction? If I'm waiting to turn because of a jam on another roadway, is that obstruction? If traffic is jammed in general, is everyone guilty of obstructing?

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 17, 2022, 12:18:15 PM
maybe we should adopt some special traffic laws for churches, and chicken restaurants endorsed by the savior.

Reminded me of this passage:

And they sent to him some of the city Councilmembers and some of the Representatives, to entrap him in his talk. And they came and said to him, "Teacher, we know that you are true, and care for no politics; for you do not regard the position of Democrats, but truly teach the way of Chick-fil-A. Is it lawful to pay traffic violations to the city, or not? Should we pay them, or should we not?"  But knowing their hypocrisy, he said to them, "Why put me to the test? Bring me the citation, and let me look at it."  And they brought one. And he said to them, "Whose signature is this?"  They said to him, "The police officer's."  Jesus said to them, "Render to Santa Barbara the things that are Santa Barbara's, and to Chick-fil-A the things that are Chick-fil-A's."  And they were amazed at him.

Mark 12:13-17  [New California Version]

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 17, 2022, 12:35:16 PMIf traffic is jammed in general, is everyone guilty of obstructing?

Everyone who's "blocking the box," so to speak, is guilty of obstructing.

Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2022, 12:42:44 PM
New California Version

Love it

Quote from: abefroman329 on March 17, 2022, 01:00:26 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 17, 2022, 12:35:16 PMIf traffic is jammed in general, is everyone guilty of obstructing?

Everyone who's "blocking the box," so to speak, is guilty of obstructing.

I feel this magnifies the problem. You can ticket people for actual violations like blocking an intersection, but then people will simply start lining up in lanes using even more space. Not sure that really fixes anything.

Complete misuse of police resources ticketing people who just want a good chicken sandwich.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 17, 2022, 03:16:32 PM
Complete misuse of police resources ticketing people who just want a good chicken sandwich.

Subjective measure there.  Good/decent for fast food would be the term I would use.  Definitely not worth a 90 minute wait to get, especially when other options exist in Santa Barbara.

I'll tell you who has mastered the fine art of drive-thru traffic management: Portillo's.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 17, 2022, 01:30:02 PM

Quote from: abefroman329 on March 17, 2022, 01:00:26 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 17, 2022, 12:35:16 PMIf traffic is jammed in general, is everyone guilty of obstructing?

Everyone who's "blocking the box," so to speak, is guilty of obstructing.

I feel this magnifies the problem. You can ticket people for actual violations like blocking an intersection, but then people will simply start lining up in lanes using even more space. Not sure that really fixes anything.

It eliminates gridlock.

Quote from: abefroman329 on March 17, 2022, 03:41:15 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 17, 2022, 01:30:02 PM

Quote from: abefroman329 on March 17, 2022, 01:00:26 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 17, 2022, 12:35:16 PMIf traffic is jammed in general, is everyone guilty of obstructing?

Everyone who's "blocking the box," so to speak, is guilty of obstructing.

I feel this magnifies the problem. You can ticket people for actual violations like blocking an intersection, but then people will simply start lining up in lanes using even more space. Not sure that really fixes anything.

It eliminates gridlock.

Yeah, agreed, don't block an intersection. I've read on these boards where people feel that if they entered before the light is red, it's their God given right to block the intersection, when in fact they're committing another violation by doing so.

That said, that's not what I was thinking of when I stated about congestion. I'm thinking along the lines of a normal highway jam.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 17, 2022, 04:19:22 PMThat said, that's not what I was thinking of when I stated about congestion. I'm thinking along the lines of a normal highway jam.

My guess is, if you can move your vehicle, and you're not, then you're obstructing traffic (with "but I'll lose my place in the Homophobic Chicken drive-thru line!" not being a valid reason why you can't move your vehicle).

Quote from: abefroman329 on March 17, 2022, 04:29:26 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 17, 2022, 04:19:22 PMThat said, that's not what I was thinking of when I stated about congestion. I'm thinking along the lines of a normal highway jam.

My guess is, if you can move your vehicle, and you're not, then you're obstructing traffic (with "but I'll lose my place in the Homophobic Chicken drive-thru line!" not being a valid reason why you can't move your vehicle).

Please try to keep the politics out of this thread so we don't have to lock it.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 17, 2022, 03:16:32 PM
Complete misuse of police resources ticketing people who just want a good chicken sandwich.

If they are obstructing traffic flow on a busy arterial, yes.

Dunkin' Donuts on South Florida Avenue does block the right lane northbound in Lakeland, Florida.  That's because everyone is fixed their on Dunkin Coffee and Doughnuts.  To me traffic is more important than good coffee or food, let them be forced to keep moving.

Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2022, 12:42:44 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 17, 2022, 12:18:15 PM
maybe we should adopt some special traffic laws for churches, and chicken restaurants endorsed by the savior.

Reminded me of this passage:

And they sent to him some of the city Councilmembers and some of the Representatives, to entrap him in his talk. And they came and said to him, "Teacher, we know that you are true, and care for no politics; for you do not regard the position of Democrats, but truly teach the way of Chick-fil-A. Is it lawful to pay traffic violations to the city, or not? Should we pay them, or should we not?"  But knowing their hypocrisy, he said to them, "Why put me to the test? Bring me the citation, and let me look at it."  And they brought one. And he said to them, "Whose signature is this?"  They said to him, "The police officer's."  Jesus said to them, "Render to Santa Barbara the things that are Santa Barbara's, and to Chick-fil-A the things that are Chick-fil-A's."  And they were amazed at him.

Mark 12:13-17  [New California Version]

Do we really need to even leave the thread open after this? It's not like anyone's going to post anything better. :-D

Quote from: roadman65 on March 17, 2022, 11:50:13 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 17, 2022, 03:16:32 PM
Complete misuse of police resources ticketing people who just want a good chicken sandwich.

If they are obstructing traffic flow on a busy arterial, yes.

Dunkin' Donuts on South Florida Avenue does block the right lane northbound in Lakeland, Florida.  That's because everyone is fixed their on Dunkin Coffee and Doughnuts.  To me traffic is more important than good coffee or food, let them be forced to keep moving.

Then why did the town/county allow them to build there in the first place?

It goes back to a government-created problem. The government zoned land as commercial. A business did research and determined their business would be a good fit at that location. The business reviewed all regulations pertaining to that spot. A business bought/leased the land (or agreed to if they were permitted to operate there). The business' representatives went to the government to get permits and licenses as necessary to open their business there. After the government reviewed the required documents, they grant the business permission to operate.

If the government had any qualms of a business operating there, they had the full power to restrict that land prior to it being zoned commercial.

Again, this isn't a business problem. It's a government problem. If traffic back up onto a roadway, that's the result of thr government failing to properly review the business's proposal.  No different than the government approving housing developments, warehouses or shopping centers that cause congestion.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2022, 12:17:43 AM

Quote from: roadman65 on March 17, 2022, 11:50:13 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 17, 2022, 03:16:32 PM
Complete misuse of police resources ticketing people who just want a good chicken sandwich.

If they are obstructing traffic flow on a busy arterial, yes.

Dunkin' Donuts on South Florida Avenue does block the right lane northbound in Lakeland, Florida.  That's because everyone is fixed their on Dunkin Coffee and Doughnuts.  To me traffic is more important than good coffee or food, let them be forced to keep moving.

Then why did the town/county allow them to build there in the first place?

It goes back to a government-created problem. The government zoned land as commercial. A business did research and determined their business would be a good fit at that location. The business reviewed all regulations pertaining to that spot. A business bought/leased the land (or agreed to if they were permitted to operate there). The business' representatives went to the government to get permits and licenses as necessary to open their business there. After the government reviewed the required documents, they grant the business permission to operate.

If the government had any qualms of a business operating there, they had the full power to restrict that land prior to it being zoned commercial.

Again, this isn't a business problem. It's a government problem. If traffic back up onto a roadway, that's the result of thr government failing to properly review the business's proposal.  No different than the government approving housing developments, warehouses or shopping centers that cause congestion.

Exactly.

In the Santa Barbra Chick Fil A case the traffic is a result of artificially constricted supply of Chick Fil A restaurants. Obviously a government problem.

But even more generally I would say these fall under that description more generally. Consider a stadium that is known to have traffic issues. Its not the stadium's fault that people go to games, so when lines to get in are backed up on surface roads it falls to the government to manage that traffic issue. Usually they detail some police units to manage traffic for major events.

If your Chick Fil A is backing up then put some cops out to help with traffic just like a concert or football game has.

And for a longer term solution maybe include X spaces worth of line on premises as a requirement for restaurants with a drive through.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 18, 2022, 01:48:14 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2022, 12:17:43 AM

Quote from: roadman65 on March 17, 2022, 11:50:13 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 17, 2022, 03:16:32 PM
Complete misuse of police resources ticketing people who just want a good chicken sandwich.

If they are obstructing traffic flow on a busy arterial, yes.

Dunkin' Donuts on South Florida Avenue does block the right lane northbound in Lakeland, Florida.  That's because everyone is fixed their on Dunkin Coffee and Doughnuts.  To me traffic is more important than good coffee or food, let them be forced to keep moving.

Then why did the town/county allow them to build there in the first place?

It goes back to a government-created problem. The government zoned land as commercial. A business did research and determined their business would be a good fit at that location. The business reviewed all regulations pertaining to that spot. A business bought/leased the land (or agreed to if they were permitted to operate there). The business' representatives went to the government to get permits and licenses as necessary to open their business there. After the government reviewed the required documents, they grant the business permission to operate.

If the government had any qualms of a business operating there, they had the full power to restrict that land prior to it being zoned commercial.

Again, this isn't a business problem. It's a government problem. If traffic back up onto a roadway, that's the result of thr government failing to properly review the business's proposal.  No different than the government approving housing developments, warehouses or shopping centers that cause congestion.

Exactly.

In the Santa Barbra Chick Fil A case the traffic is a result of artificially constricted supply of Chick Fil A restaurants. Obviously a government problem.

But even more generally I would say these fall under that description more generally. Consider a stadium that is known to have traffic issues. Its not the stadium's fault that people go to games, so when lines to get in are backed up on surface roads it falls to the government to manage that traffic issue. Usually they detail some police units to manage traffic for major events.

If your Chick Fil A is backing up then put some cops out to help with traffic just like a concert or football game has.

And for a longer term solution maybe include X spaces worth of line on premises as a requirement for restaurants with a drive through.

I believe that it was noted elsewhere that Santa Barbara no longer allows new drive-throughs through zoning.

Too early in the morning to find the quote...

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 18, 2022, 01:48:14 AM

If your Chick Fil A is backing up then put some cops out to help with traffic just like a concert or football game has.

What's interesting with this is, at least here in Philly, the police really aren't controlling traffic all that much. They are stationed at intersections with traffic lights. The lines of traffic entering the parking lots just queue up on the road for as long as needed...just like traffic queueing up to get into a drive thru.

Quote from: Rothman on March 18, 2022, 06:41:09 AM
Too early in the morning to find the quote...

This isn't the exact article you referenced, but it does mention it.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-03-15/chick-fil-a-drive-through-backlash-isnt-a-first-in-california

Someone of the concerns brought up veer far away from traffic issues, including that drive thru lines can be "magnets for gangs, graffiti and panhandlers", which is pretty unlikely in much of the country.

Quote from: roadman65 on March 17, 2022, 11:50:13 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 17, 2022, 03:16:32 PM
Complete misuse of police resources ticketing people who just want a good chicken sandwich.

If they are obstructing traffic flow on a busy arterial, yes.

Dunkin' Donuts on South Florida Avenue does block the right lane northbound in Lakeland, Florida.  That's because everyone is fixed their on Dunkin Coffee and Doughnuts.  To me traffic is more important than good coffee or food, let them be forced to keep moving.

I think you've hit on it, there.  The police need their doughnuts and coffee.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2022, 08:09:27 AM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 18, 2022, 01:48:14 AM

If your Chick Fil A is backing up then put some cops out to help with traffic just like a concert or football game has.

What's interesting with this is, at least here in Philly, the police really aren't controlling traffic all that much. They are stationed at intersections with traffic lights. The lines of traffic entering the parking lots just queue up on the road for as long as needed...just like traffic queueing up to get into a drive thru.

Quote from: Rothman on March 18, 2022, 06:41:09 AM
Too early in the morning to find the quote...

This isn't the exact article you referenced, but it does mention it.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-03-15/chick-fil-a-drive-through-backlash-isnt-a-first-in-california

Someone of the concerns brought up veer far away from traffic issues, including that drive thru lines can be "magnets for gangs, graffiti and panhandlers", which is pretty unlikely in much of the country.

Oh never let Philly be the standard of what should be done. They also park in the median here.

Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 12:01:22 PM

Quote from: webny99 on March 15, 2022, 11:57:55 AM
The staffing shortage could have been legitimate, but limiting customers to one item is obviously a terrible resolution (does this mean literally one item? what about meal combos? people with a spouse and/or kids (basically everyone)? etc.). A better solution would be to cone off the drive thru after a set number of cars, or even just telling people about the staff shortage combined with longer wait times could be a significant deterrent.

Yeah, all five of us were in the car, picking up lunch on the way home from church.  I told her through the speaker that we had planned to order a taco party pack (12 identical tacos).  Her answer:  Sorry about that.

While I think a lot of places are having issues with this type of thing now, I found a real sign of the times filling out a survey for Jack In The Box today.
On the list of radio buttons you can choose for a complaint about the service, one of the options is now "Restaurant Hours Not Followed", it seems corporate is catching on to this kind of stuff.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 18, 2022, 06:00:00 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 12:01:22 PM

Quote from: webny99 on March 15, 2022, 11:57:55 AM
The staffing shortage could have been legitimate, but limiting customers to one item is obviously a terrible resolution (does this mean literally one item? what about meal combos? people with a spouse and/or kids (basically everyone)? etc.). A better solution would be to cone off the drive thru after a set number of cars, or even just telling people about the staff shortage combined with longer wait times could be a significant deterrent.

Yeah, all five of us were in the car, picking up lunch on the way home from church.  I told her through the speaker that we had planned to order a taco party pack (12 identical tacos).  Her answer:  Sorry about that.

While I think a lot of places are having issues with this type of thing now, I found a real sign of the times filling out a survey for Jack In The Box today.
On the list of radio buttons you can choose for a complaint about the service, one of the options is now "Restaurant Hours Not Followed", it seems corporate is catching on to this kind of stuff.

Corporate is well aware. They can easily pull reports that shows no payroll and $0 sales during what should be normal operating hours.

Options on surveys like that are meant to appease the complainer. The restaurant will write back "we have contacted management". Customer is happy it appears something was done.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 19, 2022, 05:43:02 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 18, 2022, 06:00:00 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2022, 12:01:22 PM

Quote from: webny99 on March 15, 2022, 11:57:55 AM
The staffing shortage could have been legitimate, but limiting customers to one item is obviously a terrible resolution (does this mean literally one item? what about meal combos? people with a spouse and/or kids (basically everyone)? etc.). A better solution would be to cone off the drive thru after a set number of cars, or even just telling people about the staff shortage combined with longer wait times could be a significant deterrent.

Yeah, all five of us were in the car, picking up lunch on the way home from church.  I told her through the speaker that we had planned to order a taco party pack (12 identical tacos).  Her answer:  Sorry about that.

While I think a lot of places are having issues with this type of thing now, I found a real sign of the times filling out a survey for Jack In The Box today.
On the list of radio buttons you can choose for a complaint about the service, one of the options is now "Restaurant Hours Not Followed", it seems corporate is catching on to this kind of stuff.

Corporate is well aware. They can easily pull reports that shows no payroll and $0 sales during what should be normal operating hours.

Options on surveys like that are meant to appease the complainer. The restaurant will write back "we have contacted management". Customer is happy it appears something was done.

Not quite. Reports on payroll and sales only tell if someone is there, they do not distinguish between the restaurant being open for drive thru and being open for dine in (even if there is a flag for order type that can be entered incorrectly on purpose). So the survey is useful for that data check. Also, the survey gives an indication of what customers were unsatisfied with, that is not the same thing as knowing if the restaurant is open or not (ie. if 90% of reports are about hours that is a very different result than 10%, even if you know exactly when the restaurant was operating via other means).

Second, surveys are not primarily used to "appease complainers", at least not in any corporation running things correctly. I have done work with surveys and customer complaints before and considerable resources are dedicated to understanding process failures and preventing recurrences.

Different chains prioritize different clientele.

If you go inside hoping to get Taco Hell quicker, you'll be sorely disappointed. You have to wait your turn.

At the same time, Jack in the Crack will be packed inside at 4 am as you glance in through the drive-thru window and all the tweakers get their fill while you idle and stew.

Quote from: rickmastfan67 on March 15, 2022, 12:12:44 AM

Quote from: rickmastfan67 on February 23, 2022, 11:32:26 PM

Quote from: CardInLex on February 23, 2022, 09:34:24 AM
Most fast food places here in Louisville are still drive thru only. I suspect that some will never reopen their dining rooms. (Fine by me).

We're finally getting some opened inside here in the Pittsburgh area for dine-in.

McDonald's was the first last year, but they've had a few times where they closed the inside for awhile again, and then reopened.  But as of today, they are open inside.

Taco Bell was the next to fully reopen inside, however, their hours aren't constant.  I've gone there once @ 12:30PM, and the inside is closed, but hitting them up another day at 5:30PM and they're open inside.  It's been hit and miss, but they've been getting my business as of late as long as they're open inside, as I rather be able to stretch my legs while sitting down and eating instead of having them cramped inside of the car.

Wendy's has (well, at least the one I can check) is 'partially' open inside.  You can go in and order, but you can't sit and eat inside yet.

Arby's is still drive-thru only.  However, I did run across one that was open inside in the South Hills of Pittsburgh one day, unlike my local one.  My local one also has the worst hours too.  They had been only open till 8PM for quite some time (c19 hours), but only recently, changed to 9PM (compared to Taco Bell being normally open till 11PM or later in the drive-thru just across the street).  This is a location that used to be open till 1AM (drive-thru) in the past.  Plus, my local Arby's HAD been the #1 store in Pittsburgh in sales.  Can't see that being the case anymore with their messed up hours, and sometimes slow service as of late.

UPDATE: Wendy's JUST reopened inside today.  Found out by dumb luck by driving by it and seeing somebody sitting inside at the window that wasn't dressed in a Wendy's uniform.  So, ate there today for lunch. :)  Finally got my first Frosty Float in just over 2 years (drink + Jr Vanilla Frosty).  :clap:

UPDATE #2: My local Arby's JUST reopened inside today (Monday) finally.  They even advertised the fact on their sign board.  Honestly took them long enough.  They probably finally realized they were loosing way too many sales from people who parked, got out, and when they got up to the door, saw the "Drive Thru ONLY" signs, and then turned around and left.  I saw at least 2 to 3 cars any time I was sitting inside Taco Bell across the street do that.  That and probably too many complaints as to why they aren't open inside while every other fast food restaurant was open inside for dine-in around them.

Yet when White Castle opened their first Florida Store in Orlando, they had both inside and outside opened with a packed house! The drive through line was more than out in the street as local law enforcement was there to handle the spilled queue the first several weeks.  Plus a couple hours wait time in drive through lane and to eat inside.

Never seen any restaurant like that anyplace or anywhere.  It was madness over just a simple Slider.

Don't know if it's still like that now, but it was like Orlando's Fourth Biggest Attraction after the three major theme parks the first two months it was open for business. Even Trader Joe's when opened at first wasn't that busy and that did draw lots of customers when first opened as Tharp store is been known to attract many in any market it serves when opening.

Quote from: rickmastfan67 on April 05, 2022, 03:36:57 AM
They probably finally realized they were loosing way too many sales from people who parked, got out, and when they got up to the door, saw the "Drive Thru ONLY" signs, and then turned around and left.

Drive-through only doesn't exactly serve people who don't drive, either.

Last Monday, my pastor and I traveled by bus from Saltillo to Nuevo Laredo, crossed the border by taxi, checked into our hotel near the Laredo airport, and then walked over to grab some supper.  After supper, we walked over to Whataburger for a shake.  Whataburger had a sign on the door stating that it was drive-through only.  So my pastor called the phone number and asked if we should just walk through the drive-through lane or what.  Well, no, they said we couldn't do that either.  (I think they probably would have just walked our order out to us, but it ended up not mattering anyway because, after all that, we found out their machine was broken.)

Quote from: kphoger on April 05, 2022, 08:56:06 AM

Quote from: rickmastfan67 on April 05, 2022, 03:36:57 AM
They probably finally realized they were loosing way too many sales from people who parked, got out, and when they got up to the door, saw the "Drive Thru ONLY" signs, and then turned around and left.

Drive-through only doesn't exactly serve people who don't drive, either.

Last Monday, my pastor and I traveled by bus from Saltillo to Nuevo Laredo, crossed the border by taxi, checked into our hotel near the Laredo airport, and then walked over to grab some supper.  After supper, we walked over to Whataburger for a shake.  Whataburger had a sign on the door stating that it was drive-through only.  So my pastor called the phone number and asked if we should just walk through the drive-through lane or what.  Well, no, they said we couldn't do that either.  (I think they probably would have just walked our order out to us, but it ended up not mattering anyway because, after all that, we found out their machine was broken.)

Back when I was a kid, walking through drive-thrus was a thing, but then it became a safety concern.  Someone must have been hit and sued.

Another Louisville update... I have recently been turned on to Jaggers. They are a fast food chain from Texas Roadhouse (this location is just down the street from the Texas Roadhouse headquarters). I have been four times in two weeks.

Anyway, they are drive thru only (the entire time they have been in existence they have been drive thru only) with two drive thru ordering lanes. Every time I have been, the line has been out the parking lot and onto Dutchman's Lane and onto New Dutchman's Parkway.

Link to location but the satellite imagery is not up to date:
https://goo.gl/maps/1sBHC6wRxXP5P2i58

Quote from: CardInLex on April 05, 2022, 10:21:04 AM
Another Louisville update... I have recently been turned on to Jaggers. They are a fast food chain from Texas Roadhouse (this location is just down the street from the Texas Roadhouse headquarters). I have been four times in two weeks.

Anyway, they are drive thru only (the entire time they have been in existence they have been drive thru only) with two drive thru ordering lanes. Every time I have been, the line has been out the parking lot and onto Dutchman's Lane and onto New Dutchman's Parkway.

Link to location but the satellite imagery is not up to date:
https://goo.gl/maps/1sBHC6wRxXP5P2i58

Looks like they could support Dine-In in the future. https://goo.gl/maps/YJXup27Xynj8zEtt6

Quote from: rickmastfan67 on April 05, 2022, 10:46:18 AM

Quote from: CardInLex on April 05, 2022, 10:21:04 AM
Another Louisville update... I have recently been turned on to Jaggers. They are a fast food chain from Texas Roadhouse (this location is just down the street from the Texas Roadhouse headquarters). I have been four times in two weeks.

Anyway, they are drive thru only (the entire time they have been in existence they have been drive thru only) with two drive thru ordering lanes. Every time I have been, the line has been out the parking lot and onto Dutchman's Lane and onto New Dutchman's Parkway.

Link to location but the satellite imagery is not up to date:
https://goo.gl/maps/1sBHC6wRxXP5P2i58

Looks like they could support Dine-In in the future. https://goo.gl/maps/YJXup27Xynj8zEtt6

Yes, they do have indoor seating. It has never been open though.

Quote from: rickmastfan67 on April 05, 2022, 03:36:57 AM

Quote from: rickmastfan67 on March 15, 2022, 12:12:44 AM

Quote from: rickmastfan67 on February 23, 2022, 11:32:26 PM

Quote from: CardInLex on February 23, 2022, 09:34:24 AM
Most fast food places here in Louisville are still drive thru only. I suspect that some will never reopen their dining rooms. (Fine by me).

We're finally getting some opened inside here in the Pittsburgh area for dine-in.

McDonald's was the first last year, but they've had a few times where they closed the inside for awhile again, and then reopened.  But as of today, they are open inside.

Taco Bell was the next to fully reopen inside, however, their hours aren't constant.  I've gone there once @ 12:30PM, and the inside is closed, but hitting them up another day at 5:30PM and they're open inside.  It's been hit and miss, but they've been getting my business as of late as long as they're open inside, as I rather be able to stretch my legs while sitting down and eating instead of having them cramped inside of the car.

Wendy's has (well, at least the one I can check) is 'partially' open inside.  You can go in and order, but you can't sit and eat inside yet.

Arby's is still drive-thru only.  However, I did run across one that was open inside in the South Hills of Pittsburgh one day, unlike my local one.  My local one also has the worst hours too.  They had been only open till 8PM for quite some time (c19 hours), but only recently, changed to 9PM (compared to Taco Bell being normally open till 11PM or later in the drive-thru just across the street).  This is a location that used to be open till 1AM (drive-thru) in the past.  Plus, my local Arby's HAD been the #1 store in Pittsburgh in sales.  Can't see that being the case anymore with their messed up hours, and sometimes slow service as of late.

UPDATE: Wendy's JUST reopened inside today.  Found out by dumb luck by driving by it and seeing somebody sitting inside at the window that wasn't dressed in a Wendy's uniform.  So, ate there today for lunch. :)  Finally got my first Frosty Float in just over 2 years (drink + Jr Vanilla Frosty).  :clap:

UPDATE #2: My local Arby's JUST reopened inside today (Monday) finally.  They even advertised the fact on their sign board.  Honestly took them long enough.  They probably finally realized they were loosing way too many sales from people who parked, got out, and when they got up to the door, saw the "Drive Thru ONLY" signs, and then turned around and left.  I saw at least 2 to 3 cars any time I was sitting inside Taco Bell across the street do that.  That and probably too many complaints as to why they aren't open inside while every other fast food restaurant was open inside for dine-in around them.

This.  :nod:

I have not been to any of my local Arby's in years because they are not opening their dining rooms. Lot of lost business for them.
Every time I see a "dining room closed" sign its a 1 Star review on Google and a drive to their competitor.

Arby's (at least in my experience) probably has the least margin of any fast food restaurant to keep their dining room closed because their drive-thru wait times are already so long. They're night and day compared to Wendy's, and even McDonalds and Burger King have shorter lines/wait times.

Quote from: webny99 on April 05, 2022, 02:38:07 PM
Arby's (at least in my experience) probably has the least margin of any fast food restaurant to keep their dining room closed because their drive-thru wait times are already so long. They're night and day compared to Wendy's, and even McDonalds and Burger King have shorter lines/wait times.

Must be your experience. I haven't been in an Arby's drive-thru in a while but I regularly went there (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.5065734,-90.3257776,18.83z?hl=en) when I lived in St Louis; it was close to my dog's day care and I'd get a larger sandwich so we could split the meat. I thought it moved as fast as the few other drive-thrus I used (mostly McD's).

Quote from: skluth on April 05, 2022, 02:50:37 PM

Quote from: webny99 on April 05, 2022, 02:38:07 PM
Arby's (at least in my experience) probably has the least margin of any fast food restaurant to keep their dining room closed because their drive-thru wait times are already so long. They're night and day compared to Wendy's, and even McDonalds and Burger King have shorter lines/wait times.

Must be your experience. I haven't been in an Arby's drive-thru in a while but I regularly went there (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.5065734,-90.3257776,18.83z?hl=en) when I lived in St Louis; it was close to my dog's day care and I'd get a larger sandwich so we could split the meat. I thought it moved as fast as the few other drive-thrus I used (mostly McD's).

Curious what other's experiences are as well but I think they've gotten worse in recent years. The fact that so many have closed seems to make the remaining ones even busier/even more understaffed. They're now tied with Chick-Fil-A with just 3 locations in this area (4 if you count the Thruway), which would have been completely unthinkable a decade ago when there was 0 CFA's and at least 6 Arby's.

Their curly fries and shakes are the best, but half the time when I do get a chance to go there (the closest one being almost 20 minutes away now), the line is so long and so slow that I just forget it and go somewhere else.

My family just went to Arby's after church this past Sunday.  We dined in, and I was pleasantly surprised how fast our order was ready–to the extent that I even mentioned it when I picked it up at the counter.

ymmv

Quote from: kphoger on April 05, 2022, 08:56:06 AM
Drive-through only doesn't exactly serve people who don't drive, either.

Last Monday, my pastor and I traveled by bus from Saltillo to Nuevo Laredo, crossed the border by taxi, checked into our hotel near the Laredo airport, and then walked over to grab some supper.  After supper, we walked over to Whataburger for a shake.  Whataburger had a sign on the door stating that it was drive-through only.  So my pastor called the phone number and asked if we should just walk through the drive-through lane or what.  Well, no, they said we couldn't do that either.  (I think they probably would have just walked our order out to us, but it ended up not mattering anyway because, after all that, we found out their machine was broken.)

Drive-thru-only service should be illegal. The Washington legislature proposed making it illegal to not serve non-motorized traffic (https://app.leg.wa.gov/billsummary?BillNumber=5903&Initiative=false&Year=2021) in drive-thrus where no other accommodation is provided, but the bill didn't make it past committee.

Quote from: Bruce on April 05, 2022, 04:47:35 PM

Quote from: kphoger on April 05, 2022, 08:56:06 AM
Drive-through only doesn't exactly serve people who don't drive, either.

Last Monday, my pastor and I traveled by bus from Saltillo to Nuevo Laredo, crossed the border by taxi, checked into our hotel near the Laredo airport, and then walked over to grab some supper.  After supper, we walked over to Whataburger for a shake.  Whataburger had a sign on the door stating that it was drive-through only.  So my pastor called the phone number and asked if we should just walk through the drive-through lane or what.  Well, no, they said we couldn't do that either.  (I think they probably would have just walked our order out to us, but it ended up not mattering anyway because, after all that, we found out their machine was broken.)

Drive-thru-only service should be illegal. The Washington legislature proposed making it illegal to not serve non-motorized traffic (https://app.leg.wa.gov/billsummary?BillNumber=5903&Initiative=false&Year=2021) in drive-thrus where no other accommodation is provided, but the bill didn't make it past committee.

There are quite a few things that are often drive-thru only. Many ATMs. Some banks. A few pharmacies. Some Covid test sites. Drive-thrus would be smart to accept walk-ups unless they want a situation like this (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-23403935).

Quote from: Bruce on April 05, 2022, 04:47:35 PM

Quote from: kphoger on April 05, 2022, 08:56:06 AM
Drive-through only doesn't exactly serve people who don't drive, either.

Last Monday, my pastor and I traveled by bus from Saltillo to Nuevo Laredo, crossed the border by taxi, checked into our hotel near the Laredo airport, and then walked over to grab some supper.  After supper, we walked over to Whataburger for a shake.  Whataburger had a sign on the door stating that it was drive-through only.  So my pastor called the phone number and asked if we should just walk through the drive-through lane or what.  Well, no, they said we couldn't do that either.  (I think they probably would have just walked our order out to us, but it ended up not mattering anyway because, after all that, we found out their machine was broken.)

Drive-thru-only service should be illegal. The Washington legislature proposed making it illegal to not serve non-motorized traffic (https://app.leg.wa.gov/billsummary?BillNumber=5903&Initiative=false&Year=2021) in drive-thrus where no other accommodation is provided, but the bill didn't make it past committee.

Its a sign when it won't make it out of committee, that there was too much grass being smoked when they came up with that one.

There is no justifiable reason to outlaw drive through only service, and I say that as someone that refuses to eat in establishments with no dine in service. I vote with my wallet.

Quote from: Bruce on April 05, 2022, 04:47:35 PM

Quote from: kphoger on April 05, 2022, 08:56:06 AM
Drive-through only doesn't exactly serve people who don't drive, either.

Last Monday, my pastor and I traveled by bus from Saltillo to Nuevo Laredo, crossed the border by taxi, checked into our hotel near the Laredo airport, and then walked over to grab some supper.  After supper, we walked over to Whataburger for a shake.  Whataburger had a sign on the door stating that it was drive-through only.  So my pastor called the phone number and asked if we should just walk through the drive-through lane or what.  Well, no, they said we couldn't do that either.  (I think they probably would have just walked our order out to us, but it ended up not mattering anyway because, after all that, we found out their machine was broken.)

Drive-thru-only service should be illegal. The Washington legislature proposed making it illegal to not serve non-motorized traffic (https://app.leg.wa.gov/billsummary?BillNumber=5903&Initiative=false&Year=2021) in drive-thrus where no other accommodation is provided, but the bill didn't make it past committee.

There are various plaintiffs' attorneys going around filing attempted class actions on behalf of, for example, blind people trying to get a judgment saying drive-thru only violates the Americans with Disabilities Act. Insofar as I know they have not yet succeeded anywhere, mainly because the courts have found that such arrangements do not discriminate on whether you can see but rather on whether you can drive (e.g., someone with no driver's license, or someone whose license was revoked, cannot use the drive-thru either despite being able to see).

My wife is an Arby's fan. 99% of the time, no problem with the drive-through line...like just tonight.

Quote from: 1995hoo on April 05, 2022, 08:57:45 PM

Quote from: Bruce on April 05, 2022, 04:47:35 PM

Quote from: kphoger on April 05, 2022, 08:56:06 AM
Drive-through only doesn't exactly serve people who don't drive, either.

Last Monday, my pastor and I traveled by bus from Saltillo to Nuevo Laredo, crossed the border by taxi, checked into our hotel near the Laredo airport, and then walked over to grab some supper.  After supper, we walked over to Whataburger for a shake.  Whataburger had a sign on the door stating that it was drive-through only.  So my pastor called the phone number and asked if we should just walk through the drive-through lane or what.  Well, no, they said we couldn't do that either.  (I think they probably would have just walked our order out to us, but it ended up not mattering anyway because, after all that, we found out their machine was broken.)

Drive-thru-only service should be illegal. The Washington legislature proposed making it illegal to not serve non-motorized traffic (https://app.leg.wa.gov/billsummary?BillNumber=5903&Initiative=false&Year=2021) in drive-thrus where no other accommodation is provided, but the bill didn't make it past committee.

There are various plaintiffs' attorneys going around filing attempted class actions on behalf of, for example, blind people trying to get a judgment saying drive-thru only violates the Americans with Disabilities Act. Insofar as I know they have not yet succeeded anywhere, mainly because the courts have found that such arrangements do not discriminate on whether you can see but rather on whether you can drive (e.g., someone with no driver's license, or someone whose license was revoked, cannot use the drive-thru either despite being able to see).

Most lawsuits are as frivolous as buttons on a dishrag. I think we ought to cap lawyers to say 10 per year, they can choose those that have merit and decline the rest.  :pan:

Quote from: kphoger on April 05, 2022, 08:56:06 AM
Drive-through only doesn't exactly serve people who don't drive, either.

Last Monday, my pastor and I traveled by bus from Saltillo to Nuevo Laredo, crossed the border by taxi, checked into our hotel near the Laredo airport, and then walked over to grab some supper.  After supper, we walked over to Whataburger for a shake.  Whataburger had a sign on the door stating that it was drive-through only.  So my pastor called the phone number and asked if we should just walk through the drive-through lane or what.  Well, no, they said we couldn't do that either.  (I think they probably would have just walked our order out to us, but it ended up not mattering anyway because, after all that, we found out their machine was broken.)

The only thing is that many fast food restaurants are having an extremely difficult time staffing back up after COVID.  Here in Orange and Durham counties in North Carolina, the COVID restrictions were lifted in early March 2022 (for the very first time).  Folks in the know have indicated that much of this is because both Duke Hospital and UNC North Carolina Memorial Hospital serve a much greater area than the local region, so we've been ultra careful here.  But a number of fast food places have been having a difficult time staffing up to handle dine-in service. 

Most fast food restaurants are trying, and occasionally flip to drive-thru only when staffing gets too low.  But several (such as the Arby's in Carrboro) have been unable to reopen their dining areas, and in those cases, you also run the risk that those drive-thrus will also be temporarily closed due to staffing shortages. 

For the record, we can now say that it is no longer legal to operate a drive-thru restaurant of any sort in Orange County (unless they are located within the incorporated cities/towns, which are Hillsborough, Chapel Hill, Carrboro and small portions of Durham and Mebane).  Older ones had been previously grandfather by the regulation, but they have now all either closed or have been absorbed by the those municipalities.  This is one of the main reasons that outsiders have been pushing for Efland to get incorporated, because it could possibly open two more exits up to development.  No chance of that happening anytime soon.

Quote from: Bruce on April 05, 2022, 04:47:35 PM
Drive-thru-only service should be illegal. The Washington legislature proposed making it illegal to not serve non-motorized traffic (https://app.leg.wa.gov/billsummary?BillNumber=5903&Initiative=false&Year=2021) in drive-thrus where no other accommodation is provided, but the bill didn't make it past committee.

That's a liability issue that the insurance industry is going to fight hard.  Not sure why that is considered such a safety issue, but it may have more to do with security.  But fortunately, we've got Cook Out in this area where most of the restaurants have a separate walk-up window.  Except the one in Mebane (that's just across the line in Alamance County).  Last year, I got caught in the double drive-through crossover there because several folks did a walk-up order in the blind spot.  It wasn't dangerous, per se, but it could have caused gridlock for the left lane drive-thru line.  I was driving a full-size pickup truck and would have been stuck, but fortunately the car behind me gave me a little bit of space to back out of the crossover area.

Most Rallys/Checkers locations are drive-through only, although I think I have seen some outdoor seating at some of them.

Cook Out is increasingly opening drive-through only locations with no indoor seating. There's one in Morehead, Ky. A new location opened in Winchester, and it was drive-through only the one time I got something there, but it appeared as if they had indoor seating. It just wasn't open at the time because we were still doing the "fear of covid" thing.

I've never had any general issues with the speed of Arby's DT service. Like everywhere else, it seems to vary based on location and individual circumstances. Last Arby's where I used the DT was in Winchester, and they were very fast with my order.

During the height of the Pandemic, a Cook Out on Laburnum Ave just east of Richmond let me walk up to the drive thru window and order while the inside was closed. They brought my order outside to me.

I suspect most establishments would agree to take your order by phone and then walk it out to you.

Quote from: hbelkins on April 06, 2022, 12:14:29 PM
Most Rallys/Checkers locations are drive-through only, although I think I have seen some outdoor seating at some of them.

Cook Out is increasingly opening drive-through only locations with no indoor seating. There's one in Morehead, Ky. A new location opened in Winchester, and it was drive-through only the one time I got something there, but it appeared as if they had indoor seating. It just wasn't open at the time because we were still doing the "fear of covid" thing.

I've never had any general issues with the speed of Arby's DT service. Like everywhere else, it seems to vary based on location and individual circumstances. Last Arby's where I used the DT was in Winchester, and they were very fast with my order.

The Rally's/Checkers I've seen have a walkup window though it's been a while since I've gone to either one. I patronized this Rally's on occasion when I lived in St Louis; the walkup window (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.602811,-90.2235611,3a,20y,286.47h,84.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxJRISCgh4rqwrkeB-xH-_Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) is in front. This one in suburban Arnold (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.4472276,-90.3711222,3a,61y,161.02h,70.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIDv1NLN8jx2nBsd38fQQ0g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) also does. Both also have outdoor dining area.

The Aroma Joes near the UMaine Campus  (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.8922776,-68.6631906,3a,42.7y,88.87h,90.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_vDfOEiFVQlmQyN5WUVzkA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)on US 2 in Orono always tends to back up well into the roundabout, usually Mon-Fri from like 7am-3pm but I have seen it back up as late as 4-5pm at times. Weekends, although shorter, are not immune to these backups as well. Causes a lot of close calls in the roundabout at times, and blocks drivers who wants to go to the Alltown, Dunkin Donuts or the Sunoco gas station.

I'm going to have to get a picture when I go to classes tomrrow if I get the chance...

When I worked at Burger King, when I first started, we would serve people on foot in the drive thru. We hated doing it, though, because there was no way to trigger the speakerbox on foot (it had the same sort of magnetic sensor older stoplights had), so it would mean that the orders wouldn't be made in the order they were received. Most of these happened when we were open inside, so I never understood what people were trying to accomplish (they thought they were being funny, probably).

Later, when we extended our hours to 2am, we were told by corporate this wasn't allowed. None of us really argued much.

Quote from: Scott5114 on April 07, 2022, 03:39:39 AM
When I worked at Burger King, when I first started, we would serve people on foot in the drive thru. We hated doing it, though, because there was no way to trigger the speakerbox on foot (it had the same sort of magnetic sensor older stoplights had), so it would mean that the orders wouldn't be made in the order they were received. Most of these happened when we were open inside, so I never understood what people were trying to accomplish (they thought they were being funny, probably).

Drive-through on bicycle makes more sense–especially if there's no bike rack or the cyclist doesn't have a bike lock.  I used to deposit my paycheck by bicycle in the bank drive-through lane every two weeks, because the lobby was closed by the time I got off from work.  They chuckled about it sometimes, but they knew there was no real alternative.