What changes should be made to time zones? At least Spain and Iceland are "wrong" time zone, and in North America, all time zones could shift eastwards. This means that Vancouver would be in Alaska Time Zone (UTC -9) and most of Alaska would be in Hawaiian Time Zone (UTC-10) and Hawaii and westernmost Alaska would be in UTC-11. Additionally, all Aleutian Islands west on 180th meridian would be in UTC-12.
See https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=25894.0 and https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=17449. for some previous time zones discussions.
Just need permanent Daylight Savings Time (aka no switch) like several states have already approved. Will gladly sacrifice the chance of pre-commute morning daylight for more guaranteed usable hours of sunlight in the afternoon.
Quote from: Bruce on October 25, 2022, 04:07:41 AM
Just need permanent Daylight Savings Time (aka no switch) like several states have already approved. Will gladly sacrifice the chance of pre-commute morning daylight for more guaranteed usable hours of sunlight in the afternoon.
Somebody said the magic words.
Ruh roh.
Since the OP is new: discussion about DST is banned. Other discussion about moving time zones, such as your OP, is in a gray area.
I don't think it's permanently banned; more like temporarily banned as soon as it becomes too repetitive. Unfortunately, it always becomes too repetitive, and it's hard to see that changing.
(I think it's totally absurd that the latest sunrise of the year is in early November, but otherwise don't have a strong opinion on it.)
I think every location's time zone should be the one that makes their sunrise between 7:00 and 8:00 on December 21.
Which is most taboo topic on the history of the forum?
- Daylight Savings Time
- COVID-19
- Alanland
- The Hypotenuse
- Flat Illinois
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 25, 2022, 08:18:31 AM
Which is most taboo topic on the history of the forum?
- Daylight Savings Time
- COVID-19
- Alanland
- The Hypotenuse
- Flat Illinois
One of the first two. We joke about the other three, while the first two are frowned upon to even mention. I would go with the first over the second; for COVID-19, it's only policy debate that results in issues, not "here's what I did in 2020 because of the pandemic", "I have COVID-19", or other personal stuff.
Part of the USA would be on Atlantic Time. But I'm not sure where to draw the line.
Just go to Worldwide UTC/zulu and adjust your own schedules acccordingly.
Mike
Quote from: Bruce on October 25, 2022, 04:07:41 AM
Just need permanent Daylight Savings Time (aka no switch) like several states have already approved. Will gladly sacrifice the chance of pre-commute morning daylight for more guaranteed usable hours of sunlight in the afternoon.
Amen!
And anyone who suggests that my area of Kentucky needs to be in the Central Time Zone needs to be flogged. Living on the eastern edge of Central Time during the standard time months would be awful. Sunset would be between 4:30 and 5 p.m., generally.
It's a little after 8 p.m. as I type this. Feels like it's 11 p.m. In two weeks it'll be shortly after 7 p.m. and it will feel like 11.
I don't know why Texas is disproportionately in the Central Time Zone; not enough is in the Mountain Time Zone. Move the time line farther east.
Quote from: jgb191 on October 26, 2022, 12:45:00 AM
I don't know why Texas is disproportionately in the Central Time Zone; not enough is in the Mountain Time Zone. Move the time line farther east.
Easy answer: The Central part of Texas likes later sunsets and doesn't mind if it's a little dark in the morning.
Quote from: Bruce on October 25, 2022, 04:07:41 AM
Just need permanent Daylight Savings Time (aka no switch) like several states have already approved. Will gladly sacrifice the chance of pre-commute morning daylight for more guaranteed usable hours of sunlight in the afternoon.
EXACTLY!
Quote from: Road Hog on October 26, 2022, 01:24:39 AM
Quote from: jgb191 on October 26, 2022, 12:45:00 AM
I don't know why Texas is disproportionately in the Central Time Zone; not enough is in the Mountain Time Zone. Move the time line farther east.
Easy answer: The Central part of Texas likes later sunsets and doesn't mind if it's a little dark in the morning.
Yeah keep all the counties east of the US-83/US-277 corridor the way it is. Move the time line east of the Texas Panhandle along with the Oklahoma border and continuing south from there. This means the time line should be straddling near the towns like Childress, Guthrie, and Aspermont, Ballinger, Menard, Junction, Uvalde, and so on.
El Paso could use some much-needed company in the Mountain Time Zone: Amarillo, Lubbock, Midland-Odessa, San Angelo, (and maybe even Abilene).
Quote from: jgb191 on October 26, 2022, 02:13:15 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on October 26, 2022, 01:24:39 AM
Quote from: jgb191 on October 26, 2022, 12:45:00 AM
I don't know why Texas is disproportionately in the Central Time Zone; not enough is in the Mountain Time Zone. Move the time line farther east.
Easy answer: The Central part of Texas likes later sunsets and doesn't mind if it's a little dark in the morning.
Yeah keep all the counties east of the US-83/US-277 corridor the way it is. Move the time line east of the Texas Panhandle along with the Oklahoma border and continuing south from there. This means the time line should be straddling near the towns like Childress, Guthrie, and Aspermont, Ballinger, Menard, Junction, Uvalde, and so on.
El Paso could use some much-needed company in the Mountain Time Zone: Amarillo, Lubbock, Midland-Odessa, San Angelo, (and maybe even Abilene).
El Paso is much more likely to be switched over to Central Time Zone, especially considering Juarez, right across the Rio Grande, is in CTZ.
Quote from: brad2971 on October 26, 2022, 07:47:21 AM
Quote from: jgb191 on October 26, 2022, 02:13:15 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on October 26, 2022, 01:24:39 AM
Quote from: jgb191 on October 26, 2022, 12:45:00 AM
I don't know why Texas is disproportionately in the Central Time Zone; not enough is in the Mountain Time Zone. Move the time line farther east.
Easy answer: The Central part of Texas likes later sunsets and doesn't mind if it's a little dark in the morning.
Yeah keep all the counties east of the US-83/US-277 corridor the way it is. Move the time line east of the Texas Panhandle along with the Oklahoma border and continuing south from there. This means the time line should be straddling near the towns like Childress, Guthrie, and Aspermont, Ballinger, Menard, Junction, Uvalde, and so on.
El Paso could use some much-needed company in the Mountain Time Zone: Amarillo, Lubbock, Midland-Odessa, San Angelo, (and maybe even Abilene).
El Paso is much more likely to be switched over to Central Time Zone, especially considering Juarez, right across the Rio Grande, is in CTZ.
That prompts me to wonder, as a general question, how many places there are that de facto operate on a different time zone than where they're actually located. I recall about 25 years ago, when I was working in Montgomery, Alabama, I had to drive out to Phenix City for something and I found that pretty much everything there, with the exception of state and federal government facilities (courthouse, post office, etc.), operated on Eastern Time, despite being located in the Central Time Zone, because it was more convenient to be in sync with the much larger city of Columbus, Georgia, located just across the river (and to which many Phenix City residents routinely travelled for things like buying cheaper gas–which I did too while I was there).
I'm sure there must be other places that function similarly for practical reasons. I would expect that Hyder, Alaska, would likely be an example of this sort of thing (again, presumably excepting any government offices).
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 26, 2022, 08:17:15 AM
I'm sure there must be other places that function similarly for practical reasons. I would expect that Hyder, Alaska, would likely be an example of this sort of thing (again, presumably excepting any government offices).
When I visited Hyder AK in 1994, it much more extremely followed neighboring Stewart BC. Except for the Hyder post office, it used Canadian money. Its phones were in BC's area code rather than Alaska's. Its residents on Medicare got a waiver to use Canadian doctors and hospitals, since it was so difficult for Hyder residents to get their care from U.S. providers in Ketchikan. There weren't even any border checkpoints back then (now there are on the Canadian side of the border, but still none on the U.S. side). Time was among the least of Hyder's anomalies.
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 26, 2022, 08:17:15 AM
Quote from: brad2971 on October 26, 2022, 07:47:21 AM
Quote from: jgb191 on October 26, 2022, 02:13:15 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on October 26, 2022, 01:24:39 AM
Quote from: jgb191 on October 26, 2022, 12:45:00 AM
I don't know why Texas is disproportionately in the Central Time Zone; not enough is in the Mountain Time Zone. Move the time line farther east.
Easy answer: The Central part of Texas likes later sunsets and doesn't mind if it's a little dark in the morning.
Yeah keep all the counties east of the US-83/US-277 corridor the way it is. Move the time line east of the Texas Panhandle along with the Oklahoma border and continuing south from there. This means the time line should be straddling near the towns like Childress, Guthrie, and Aspermont, Ballinger, Menard, Junction, Uvalde, and so on.
El Paso could use some much-needed company in the Mountain Time Zone: Amarillo, Lubbock, Midland-Odessa, San Angelo, (and maybe even Abilene).
El Paso is much more likely to be switched over to Central Time Zone, especially considering Juarez, right across the Rio Grande, is in CTZ.
That prompts me to wonder, as a general question, how many places there are that de facto operate on a different time zone than where they're actually located.
Near me there is a school district that straddles LaPorte (Central) and St Joseph (Eastern) counties. The high school, middle school and all but one of the elementary schools in the district are physically in LaPorte County and operate on Central Time. New Carlisle is the principal town on the St Joseph side of the district, and while the town and the elementary school officially operate on Eastern Time, because all the middle school and high school kids and teachers are essentially living on Central Time, business hours get adjusted and many places have clocks showing both times.
Porcupine Mountains State Park in MI is in both Eastern and Central TZ. There are signs that say the whole park follows Eastern Time.
Bark River - Harris School District in the UP is mostly in CST but observes EST - it is mentioned on the district's website home page.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 25, 2022, 08:12:08 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 25, 2022, 04:07:41 AM
Just need permanent Daylight Savings Time (aka no switch) like several states have already approved. Will gladly sacrifice the chance of pre-commute morning daylight for more guaranteed usable hours of sunlight in the afternoon.
Amen!
And anyone who suggests that my area of Kentucky needs to be in the Central Time Zone needs to be flogged. Living on the eastern edge of Central Time during the standard time months would be awful. Sunset would be between 4:30 and 5 p.m., generally.
It's a little after 8 p.m. as I type this. Feels like it's 11 p.m. In two weeks it'll be shortly after 7 p.m. and it will feel like 11.
In the winter evenings it sucks but as someone who has to wake up pretty early in the morning it's a heck of a lot easier to do that on Central time because it's actually light out.
Quote from: brad2971 on October 26, 2022, 07:47:21 AM
El Paso is much more likely to be switched over to Central Time Zone, especially considering Juarez, right across the Rio Grande, is in CTZ.
No it isn't, and it hasn't been for 24 years now. The entire state of Chihuahua has been in the
Zona PacÃfico since 1998, which corresponds to the US Mountain Time Zone. Furthermore, being within the border zone, the
municipio of Juárez has operated on the same (new) DST schedule as does the USA since 2009. Therefore, it is always the same time in Ciudad Juárez as it is in El Paso and has been for the last 13 years.
Quote from: royo6022 on October 26, 2022, 10:39:07 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 25, 2022, 08:12:08 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 25, 2022, 04:07:41 AM
Just need permanent Daylight Savings Time (aka no switch) like several states have already approved. Will gladly sacrifice the chance of pre-commute morning daylight for more guaranteed usable hours of sunlight in the afternoon.
Amen!
And anyone who suggests that my area of Kentucky needs to be in the Central Time Zone needs to be flogged. Living on the eastern edge of Central Time during the standard time months would be awful. Sunset would be between 4:30 and 5 p.m., generally.
It's a little after 8 p.m. as I type this. Feels like it's 11 p.m. In two weeks it'll be shortly after 7 p.m. and it will feel like 11.
In the winter evenings it sucks but as someone who has to wake up pretty early in the morning it's a heck of a lot easier to do that on Central time because it's actually light out.
That's why I suggested using the December 21 sunrise as a guide. Get the latest possible sunset you can without pushing sunrise past 8am.
I am surprised (not really) that this is still an issue where the states and localities have more say than other issues. One could make an argument that time zones affect interstate commerce, and the federal government usually enters in where interstate commerce is involved. Some bureaucrat or legislative body could determine the exact lines of the time zones for US so that they are more appropriately representative. I know that is a ticking time bomb for someone. Perhaps we should turn that over to a legislative body, and they could have have arguments and debates about it for months or maybe years, therefore we could avoid legislation that might not be wanted anyway.
Quote from: Life in Paradise on October 26, 2022, 12:33:31 PM
I am surprised (not really) that this is still an issue where the states and localities have more say than other issues. One could make an argument that time zones affect interstate commerce, and the federal government usually enters in where interstate commerce is involved. Some bureaucrat or legislative body could determine the exact lines of the time zones for US so that they are more appropriately representative. I know that is a ticking time bomb for someone. Perhaps we should turn that over to a legislative body, and they could have have arguments and debates about it for months or maybe years, therefore we could avoid legislation that might not be wanted anyway.
States have the authority as to whether or not to observe DST. The US Department of Transportation has the authority to approve any actual changes in time zones. That's why state bills are worded "observed DST year-round" rather than "change time zones."
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Solar_time_vs_standard_time.png (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Solar_time_vs_standard_time.png)
Any place whose time zone is over an hour off from solar time should be moved into the next time zone.
What's the deal with that chunk of GMT in northeastern Greenland?
https://goo.gl/maps/WoKvE7bGnYDf51Cr9
Quote from: kphoger on October 26, 2022, 05:29:18 PM
What's the deal with that chunk of GMT in northeastern Greenland?
https://goo.gl/maps/WoKvE7bGnYDf51Cr9
The only connections outside of Greenland from there are to Iceland, so they maintain the same time zone as Iceland which happens to be GMT.
Cincinnati should be moved to Central Time, especially if Daylight Saving Time becomes year-round.
I think the best thing to do would be to use the natural boundaries for time zones, except that areas centered on each major city would be in that city's time zone. I once read that this was how it was originally done. Places like Cincinnati used to be on Central Time, but large financial firms in New York kept demanding that Eastern Time be moved further and further west.
Quote from: bandit957 on October 27, 2022, 10:34:23 AM
I think the best thing to do would be to use the natural boundaries for time zones, except that areas centered on each major city would be in that city's time zone. I once read that this was how it was originally done. Places like Cincinnati used to be on Central Time, but large financial firms in New York kept demanding that Eastern Time be moved further and further west.
That was the basis for the map I proposed last time we had a thread on this...
(https://i.imgur.com/GSumlqQ.png)
I don't think it's worth it for 98,200 people in the mainland US to be in their own time zone.
Quote from: 1 on October 27, 2022, 12:35:48 PM
I don't think it's worth it for 98,200 people in the mainland US to be in their own time zone.
SST already has less than half that (which you apparently knew already).
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 25, 2022, 08:18:31 AM
Which is most taboo topic on the history of the forum?
- Daylight Savings Time
- COVID-19
- Alanland
- The Hypotenuse
- Flat Illinois
None of the above.
Carl Rodgers, aka Calrog. He was banned before the first word was posted on this site. If that isn't taboo, then the rest of you need new witch doctors.
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on October 27, 2022, 01:30:15 PM
None of the above.
Carl Rodgers, aka Calrog. He was banned before the first word was posted on this site. If that isn't taboo, then the rest of you need new witch doctors.
Carl Rogers isn't banned (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=5812.msg126910#msg126910).
Quote from: Alps on December 16, 2011, 05:47:32 PMAs far as I know none of us have any such idea. I couldn't trace him to any particular account. If Carl Rogers were to join the board, we'd take the same approach: Keep up your usual shenanigans and you'll be banned forthwith. Be a productive member of the community and you can stay around. Doesn't matter what your past life is unless you're known for doing something illegal (we had a case of that a couple years ago where I caught a suspicious-looking name)
I think when Jake Bear was head admin we had an unwritten policy of "if Carl Rogers makes an account, ban him on sight", but he never seemed to be interested in doing so (probably because he knew he could only pull off his schtick on an unmoderated forum), so that kind of went by the wayside.
Moderation is a significant deterrent to bad behavior in and of itself. I found it a little hard to believe this concept was so difficult to accept in MTR back in 2003 when the creation of a new moderated newsgroup was under consideration.
DST is definitely a topic that I agree and disagree with. I view it favorably negative.
And Illinois is still flat except where it's not.
Quote from: The State of Arizona
DST is definitely a topic that I agree and disagree with. I view it favorably negative.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 25, 2022, 08:18:31 AM
Which is most taboo topic on the history of the forum?
- Daylight Savings Time
- COVID-19
- Alanland
- The Hypotenuse
- Flat Illinois
Orleans County, NY?
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 27, 2022, 02:53:31 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 25, 2022, 08:18:31 AM
Which is most taboo topic on the history of the forum?
- Daylight Savings Time
- COVID-19
- Alanland
- The Hypotenuse
- Flat Illinois
Orleans County, NY?
Scary looking bridges in North Carolina?
Quote from: dlsterner on October 27, 2022, 03:00:27 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 27, 2022, 02:53:31 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 25, 2022, 08:18:31 AM
Which is most taboo topic on the history of the forum?
- Daylight Savings Time
- COVID-19
- Alanland
- The Hypotenuse
- Flat Illinois
Orleans County, NY?
Scary looking bridges in North Carolina?
Or just anything from North Carolina.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 25, 2022, 08:18:31 AM
Which is most taboo topic on the history of the forum?
- Daylight Savings Time
- COVID-19
- Alanland
- The Hypotenuse
- Flat Illinois
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 27, 2022, 02:53:31 PM
Orleans County, NY?
Not quite. How about "Does I-70 go to Baltimore?"
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 27, 2022, 02:53:31 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 25, 2022, 08:18:31 AM
Which is most taboo topic on the history of the forum?
- Daylight Savings Time
- COVID-19
- Alanland
- The Hypotenuse
- Flat Illinois
Orleans County, NY?
I'm probably the only one who might regard that as taboo, and I've come to accept it's "longstanding joke" status. :biggrin:
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 27, 2022, 02:52:57 PM
Quote from: The State of Arizona
DST is definitely a topic that I agree and disagree with. I view it favorably negative.
Well done!! :-D
Here was my proposal. Wasn't in the other threads with links here, but I'm sure it was posted somewhere. Borders are based on TV markets.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/1773/29067492267_ab96b405e6.jpg)
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on October 28, 2022, 01:55:56 AM
Here was my proposal. Wasn't in the other threads with links here, but I'm sure it was posted somewhere. Borders are based on TV markets.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/1773/29067492267_ab96b405e6.jpg)
The little sliver of counties on the west side of the Mississippi being on the central (?) time zone is an odd choice. I think I would shift the line further west. As someone who went to school in Platteville, WI, it would also be strange to go to Dubuque, IA and be in a different time zone.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on October 28, 2022, 08:47:19 AM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on October 28, 2022, 01:55:56 AM
Here was my proposal. Wasn't in the other threads with links here, but I'm sure it was posted somewhere. Borders are based on TV markets.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/1773/29067492267_ab96b405e6.jpg)
The little sliver of counties on the west side of the Mississippi being on the central (?) time zone is an odd choice. I think I would shift the line further west. As someone who went to school in Platteville, WI, it would also be strange to go to Dubuque, IA and be in a different time zone.
Being in Indiana is worse as 90% of the state is on Eastern except for the Chicago and Evansville areas... which serve as hubs for many of the counties on the Eastern side of the line making life pretty confusing sometimes... especially people in my area, growing up 10 minutes from the line that has reason being where it is. There are even several counties to the EAST of where I live that are still on Central.
I actually operate on Standard Time through most of the year when Daylight Saving Time is official.
There was a time maybe 20 years ago when I was actually operating on Central Standard Time year-round, despite being officially in the Eastern Time Zone. That was because of health problems that disrupted sleep. But this is an area that naturally should be on Central Time.
Quote from: bandit957 on October 28, 2022, 11:39:56 AM
I actually operate on Standard Time through most of the year when Daylight Saving Time is official.
There was a time maybe 20 years ago when I was actually operating on Central Standard Time year-round, despite being officially in the Eastern Time Zone. That was because of health problems that disrupted sleep. But this is an area that naturally should be on Central Time.
Meanwhile, I
realistically operate on Eastern Standard Time for 34 weeks every year, despite living in the Central Time Zone all year long.
Quote from: kphoger on October 28, 2022, 11:44:39 AM
Quote from: bandit957 on October 28, 2022, 11:39:56 AM
I actually operate on Standard Time through most of the year when Daylight Saving Time is official.
There was a time maybe 20 years ago when I was actually operating on Central Standard Time year-round, despite being officially in the Eastern Time Zone. That was because of health problems that disrupted sleep. But this is an area that naturally should be on Central Time.
Meanwhile, I realistically operate on Eastern Standard Time for 34 weeks every year, despite living in the Central Time Zone all year long.
I operated on Standard time for the entire first 22½ years of my life.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 28, 2022, 11:45:57 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 28, 2022, 11:44:39 AM
Quote from: bandit957 on October 28, 2022, 11:39:56 AM
I actually operate on Standard Time through most of the year when Daylight Saving Time is official.
There was a time maybe 20 years ago when I was actually operating on Central Standard Time year-round, despite being officially in the Eastern Time Zone. That was because of health problems that disrupted sleep. But this is an area that naturally should be on Central Time.
Meanwhile, I realistically operate on Eastern Standard Time for 34 weeks every year, despite living in the Central Time Zone all year long.
I operated on Standard time for the entire first 22½ years of my life.
I guess if we're going there, I support DST.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 28, 2022, 11:45:57 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 28, 2022, 11:44:39 AM
Quote from: bandit957 on October 28, 2022, 11:39:56 AM
I actually operate on Standard Time through most of the year when Daylight Saving Time is official.
There was a time maybe 20 years ago when I was actually operating on Central Standard Time year-round, despite being officially in the Eastern Time Zone. That was because of health problems that disrupted sleep. But this is an area that naturally should be on Central Time.
Meanwhile, I realistically operate on Eastern Standard Time for 34 weeks every year, despite living in the Central Time Zone all year long.
I operated on Standard time for the entire first 22½ years of my life.
Never left the state?
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 28, 2022, 12:49:14 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 28, 2022, 11:45:57 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 28, 2022, 11:44:39 AM
Quote from: bandit957 on October 28, 2022, 11:39:56 AM
I actually operate on Standard Time through most of the year when Daylight Saving Time is official.
There was a time maybe 20 years ago when I was actually operating on Central Standard Time year-round, despite being officially in the Eastern Time Zone. That was because of health problems that disrupted sleep. But this is an area that naturally should be on Central Time.
Meanwhile, I realistically operate on Eastern Standard Time for 34 weeks every year, despite living in the Central Time Zone all year long.
I operated on Standard time for the entire first 22½ years of my life.
Never left the state?
Never lived out of the state. Never was out of the state during time changes.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 28, 2022, 02:12:49 PM
Never lived out of the state. Never was out of the state during time changes.
I was once in Mexico when the US switched to DST, but returned to the US before Mexico switched.
This means we
didn't change our watches on the drive south, but then, a week later, we
did change our watches on the drive north. That confused some people.
Quote from: kphoger on October 28, 2022, 02:30:46 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 28, 2022, 02:12:49 PM
Never lived out of the state. Never was out of the state during time changes.
I was once in Mexico when the US switched to DST, but returned to the US before Mexico switched.
This means we didn't change our watches on the drive south, but then, a week later, we did change our watches on the drive north. That confused some people.
So in 2000 I had a friend who was late to work on a Wednesday because of the time change. He was in Indy for the Final Four on a weekend where the time changed at his home in Chicago but didn't change in Indy. He went straight from his hotel in Indy to work Tuesday morning, but by that time had forgotten that time had changed and didn't change his clocks at home Tuesday evening.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 28, 2022, 02:12:49 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 28, 2022, 12:49:14 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 28, 2022, 11:45:57 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 28, 2022, 11:44:39 AM
Quote from: bandit957 on October 28, 2022, 11:39:56 AM
I actually operate on Standard Time through most of the year when Daylight Saving Time is official.
There was a time maybe 20 years ago when I was actually operating on Central Standard Time year-round, despite being officially in the Eastern Time Zone. That was because of health problems that disrupted sleep. But this is an area that naturally should be on Central Time.
Meanwhile, I realistically operate on Eastern Standard Time for 34 weeks every year, despite living in the Central Time Zone all year long.
I operated on Standard time for the entire first 22½ years of my life.
Never left the state?
Never lived out of the state. Never was out of the state during time changes.
Just find it odd, I guess, that you never went to Chicago in the summer (or any other state other than Arizona for that matter).
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 28, 2022, 03:27:15 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 28, 2022, 02:12:49 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 28, 2022, 12:49:14 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 28, 2022, 11:45:57 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 28, 2022, 11:44:39 AM
Quote from: bandit957 on October 28, 2022, 11:39:56 AM
I actually operate on Standard Time through most of the year when Daylight Saving Time is official.
There was a time maybe 20 years ago when I was actually operating on Central Standard Time year-round, despite being officially in the Eastern Time Zone. That was because of health problems that disrupted sleep. But this is an area that naturally should be on Central Time.
Meanwhile, I realistically operate on Eastern Standard Time for 34 weeks every year, despite living in the Central Time Zone all year long.
I operated on Standard time for the entire first 22½ years of my life.
Never left the state?
Never lived out of the state. Never was out of the state during time changes.
Just find it odd, I guess, that you never went to Chicago in the summer (or any other state other than Arizona for that matter).
I should clarify, I never went out of state while the time was changing. Went to Chicago in the summer plenty, but they were on the same time as us in the summer.
Yep. Chicago is on Eastern Standard Time during the summer months. :nod:
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 28, 2022, 03:32:13 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 28, 2022, 03:27:15 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 28, 2022, 02:12:49 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 28, 2022, 12:49:14 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 28, 2022, 11:45:57 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 28, 2022, 11:44:39 AM
Quote from: bandit957 on October 28, 2022, 11:39:56 AM
I actually operate on Standard Time through most of the year when Daylight Saving Time is official.
There was a time maybe 20 years ago when I was actually operating on Central Standard Time year-round, despite being officially in the Eastern Time Zone. That was because of health problems that disrupted sleep. But this is an area that naturally should be on Central Time.
Meanwhile, I realistically operate on Eastern Standard Time for 34 weeks every year, despite living in the Central Time Zone all year long.
I operated on Standard time for the entire first 22½ years of my life.
Never left the state?
Never lived out of the state. Never was out of the state during time changes.
Just find it odd, I guess, that you never went to Chicago in the summer (or any other state other than Arizona for that matter).
I should clarify, I never went out of state while the time was changing. Went to Chicago in the summer plenty, but they were on the same time as us in the summer.
So then you didn't operate only on standard time. ;-)
Sure he did. He operated on Eastern Standard Time.
Quote from: kphoger on October 28, 2022, 07:34:58 PM
Sure he did. He operated on Eastern Standard Time.
Or Mountain Super Daylight Time.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 28, 2022, 07:37:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 28, 2022, 07:34:58 PM
Sure he did. He operated on Eastern Standard Time.
Or Mountain Super Daylight Time.
I get what you're saying. I went places where DST was in effect at the time, but I never had to experience a spring forward/fall back time change. It wasn't really any different than traveling through time zones at times when DST wasn't in effect.
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on October 28, 2022, 01:55:56 AM
Here was my proposal. Wasn't in the other threads with links here, but I'm sure it was posted somewhere. Borders are based on TV markets.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/1773/29067492267_ab96b405e6.jpg)
The Pacific Northwest makes zero sense on this map. Seattle and Spokane need to be in the same time zone for practical purposes, and the West Coast should be on one time zone for ease of commerce. Driving north/south and having to change clocks is ridiculous.
Quote from: mgk920 on October 25, 2022, 11:45:29 AM
Just go to Worldwide UTC/zulu and adjust your own schedules acccordingly.
Mike
Wouldn't really address the problem. Many people would hate getting up at midnight, and disregard civil time, and we'd be back with the mass confusion we had before time zones were created.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 28, 2022, 07:52:10 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 28, 2022, 07:37:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 28, 2022, 07:34:58 PM
Sure he did. He operated on Eastern Standard Time.
Or Mountain Super Daylight Time.
I get what you're saying. I went places where DST was in effect at the time, but I never had to experience a spring forward/fall back time change. It wasn't really any different than traveling through time zones at times when DST wasn't in effect.
I understood what you meant after your clarification. I was just being a dick. :)
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/good_morning.png)
I tend to operate on...whatever time zone it is where it's midnight when it's 6am in Oklahoma.
Quote from: Bruce on October 28, 2022, 07:55:42 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on October 28, 2022, 01:55:56 AM
Here was my proposal. Wasn't in the other threads with links here, but I'm sure it was posted somewhere. Borders are based on TV markets.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/1773/29067492267_ab96b405e6.jpg)
The Pacific Northwest makes zero sense on this map. Seattle and Spokane need to be in the same time zone for practical purposes, and the West Coast should be on one time zone for ease of commerce. Driving north/south and having to change clocks is ridiculous.
I-65 has entered the chat.
I trust local people and local authorities to decide their proper time within the rules. As long as they are contiguous to a time zone boundary, leave it to them to decide. Of course we don't want a crazy-quilt hodgepodge of time zones like existed before across the map.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 28, 2022, 11:17:16 PM
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/good_morning.png)
I tend to operate on...whatever time zone it is where it's midnight when it's 6am in Oklahoma.
Working night shift doesn't make you a European
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on October 28, 2022, 01:55:56 AM
Here was my proposal. Wasn't in the other threads with links here, but I'm sure it was posted somewhere. Borders are based on TV markets.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/1773/29067492267_ab96b405e6.jpg)
Garrett County
would be in a different time zone than the rest of Maryland. It's the state's how-am-I-still-in-Maryland county anyhow.
Quote from: kalvado on October 30, 2022, 07:02:23 AM
Working night shift doesn't make you a European
C'est ce que tu penses!
All I can think of while reading this discussion is this
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.shopify.com%2Fs%2Ffiles%2F1%2F0165%2F1821%2F7782%2Fproducts%2Fcnvs-clk-5-oclock-somewhere-pollera-5084310013.jpg%3Fv%3D1623820243&hash=7029bcfb384ea82ef22732c6bd288a3681916d5e)
I posted this before, but since the subject won't go away....
(https://i.redd.it/4hqnzxvlarj61.jpg)
Premise:
- Boundaries follow the TV market boundaries, and assume no time changes
- Goal was to minimize the error of "light" vs "dark" in the major city of each market given certain common preferences, with extra weight given to "morning commute" and "evening commute" hours (this was put together before the pandemic made WFH popular.
- Major time zones are set to UTC -4½, -5½, -6½, and -7½, because otherwise I ended up with an indicated time zone boundary splitting the Northeast Corridor and having San Francisco and Los Angeles in different time zone...and I think neither option would be considered acceptable by people with interests in those areas. I acknowledge that some people can't get over the mental stumbling block of not being even-hours' difference from UTC....but otherwise the "keep the Northeast Corridor together / keep SF and LA together" criterion, the "no time change" criterion, or the "common expectations about when it should be light/dark" criterion needs to go.
- Detroit/Toledo are a problem. With my algorithm Detroit indicates as just barely Eastern, and Toledo as just barely Central, but some folks have strong opinions that they should be in the same time zone.
- Similarly, some people have very strong opinions that the LP of Michigan should be in the same time zone as Detroit. If Detroit were in Central that wouldn't be a problem. Another option would be to put Detroit/Toledo/the LP in a special time zone between Central and Eastern. (Doubt that would happen because of a general dislike of half-hour time differences.)
- Texas is a problem as well. The line between Central and Mountain should fall just west of Dallas, but I anticipate the next markets west would want to be in the same time zone as Dallas. The options would seem to be to accept that additional sunrises/sunsets will be "too late" in central and possibly western Texas, or (unlikely) put the Texas markets half-way between Central and Mountain time.
- Fargo and Sioux Falls markets have the problem of being geographically large and both cities' being very close to the logical divide between Central and Mountain....
- Yuma is right on the line between Mountain and Pacific, and I'm not going to pretend to know which would be better for folks in that market.
- Eastern Idaho and Western Montana have a similar issue.
- My "minimize error" algorithm breaks down in Alaska due to the implications of high latitude.
I don't actually expect this plan to be adopted. Too many people have too strong, conflicting opinions about their favorite places sharing a time zone with their other favorite places, of being whole-hours' different from some standard, and preferences of whether they prefer their daylight to be "early" vs "late".
I'd actually prefer that people be less hung-up over forcing the numbers on the clock to fit their lifestyles, and instead adapt their schedules (changing them with the season, if necessary) based on their preferences for daylight/darkness....but that's also apparently too much to hope for.
I fully expect there to be no change in time zones, and no abolition of DST, because there's no realistic hope of developing enough consensus to make a change.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on October 30, 2022, 01:33:30 PM
I'd actually prefer that people be less hung-up over forcing the numbers on the clock to fit their lifestyles, and instead adapt their schedules (changing them with the season, if necessary) based on their preferences for daylight/darkness....but that's also apparently too much to hope for.
The problem is that most people have other people in power (bosses, school administrators, retailers, etc.) that dictate when they must be active according to the clock.
If you can somehow rid yourself of these people (say, by getting a job where you do not need to be on call at any particular time, and living in a city where 24-hour establishments are available) it is a fantastic luxury to be able to adapt to the whims of one's own circadian rhythm.
I'm sorry, but I really don't understand what problem the half hour differences from UTC are intended to solve. Or, for that matter, what the different shading patterns mean. It probably doesn't help that at default size in the screen that captions are too small to read, while clicking on it makes the entire image so big only 1/8 of it fits on the screen at once.
How important are TV markets, now? Aren't most people getting their content from streaming or cable?
I'm fine with Seattle's time zone and switching to standard time for the winter and DST for the summer. I would not want daylight to start in the summer hours before it was time to get up, nor with it still being pitch dark in the morning during the morning commute.
Most people do NOT have the choice to ignore civil time and show up for work or school at a time of their preference.
Re the half-hour differences: My objective was to minimize the "light" vs "dark" error given common preferences about whether it should be light/dark at different times.
If I limited the exercise to time zones being whole hours different from UTC, I ended up with Washington DC and New York in different time zones, and San Francisco and Los Angeles in different time zones. I also had an indicated time zone boundary being drawn near the Mississippi River.
By shifting Eastern to UTC-4½, etc. I was able to minimize error and have the time zone boundaries fall in less-populated corridors (although Detroit and central Texas still pose problems).
Regarding the shading -- The regions with non-solid colors are generally those that I described in my narrative. They're places where my attempts to "miminize error" conflict with opinions commonly expressed online about certain neighboring areas that should be on the same time....or a couple of places where I'm not familiar with such opinions.
The best example is the LP of Michigan, Detroit, and Toledo. The Eastern/Central time zone boundary should pass very close to Toledo and Detroit, potentially dividing the two cities, and the LP of Michigan should be on Central time. Toledo and Detroit could be in either UTC-4½ or UTC-5½ without significantly increasing error. But the LP of Michigan should not be in UTC-5½.
Regarding the size of the image -- It's an artifact of the tool used to create the image. Once you have the image open as its own file, most programs have a way for you to scroll or scale the image based on your preferences / limitations of your monitor.
Regarding TV markets-- I don't know that they're that important these days, but I still assume that people prefer to be in the same time zone as "their" primary city. I used TV markets as a proxy for this purpose. Without this, I would have had 20 times the number of calcluations to make, and I would have had many situations akin to that faced by Russel County, Alabama today. (Russel County, right across the river from Columbus GA, is officially on Central Time, but as a practical matter observes Eastern Time to be aligned with Columbus.)
I accept that people are obliged to follow common schedules. However, the age-old complaints of "we don't want to send kids to school in the dark in December" and "in summer, we want more daylight after standard business hours, instead of before business hours" could be handled if school starting times and business hours shifted with the seasons, rather than going through the rigmarole of changing clocks twice a year.
Things I am fine with:
* Being up to an hour away from my "natural" time zone (defined as a 15° longitudinal band without reference to any other geographical features).
* Commuting in the dark for part of the year.
* Having daylight overlap with part of my sleeping hours. (This is unavoidable at high latitudes.)
Things I am not fine with:
* Moving the clocks an hour forward or an hour backward at arbitrary times of the year.
* Time zones defined in increments of less than a full hour.
Anyone who has an opinion on daylight savings time should be legally compelled to do four-year terms on graveyard shift until the opinion subsides.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on October 30, 2022, 03:40:50 PM
Re the half-hour differences: My objective was to minimize the "light" vs "dark" error given common preferences about whether it should be light/dark at different times.
If I limited the exercise to time zones being whole hours different from UTC, I ended up with Washington DC and New York in different time zones, and San Francisco and Los Angeles in different time zones. I also had an indicated time zone boundary being drawn near the Mississippi River.
By shifting Eastern to UTC-4½, etc. I was able to minimize error and have the time zone boundaries fall in less-populated corridors (although Detroit and central Texas still pose problems).
Regarding the shading -- The regions with non-solid colors are generally those that I described in my narrative. They're places where my attempts to "miminize error" conflict with opinions commonly expressed online about certain neighboring areas that should be on the same time....or a couple of places where I'm not familiar with such opinions.
The best example is the LP of Michigan, Detroit, and Toledo. The Eastern/Central time zone boundary should pass very close to Toledo and Detroit, potentially dividing the two cities, and the LP of Michigan should be on Central time. Toledo and Detroit could be in either UTC-4½ or UTC-5½ without significantly increasing error. But the LP of Michigan should not be in UTC-5½.
Regarding the size of the image -- It's an artifact of the tool used to create the image. Once you have the image open as its own file, most programs have a way for you to scroll or scale the image based on your preferences / limitations of your monitor.
Regarding TV markets-- I don't know that they're that important these days, but I still assume that people prefer to be in the same time zone as "their" primary city. I used TV markets as a proxy for this purpose. Without this, I would have had 20 times the number of calcluations to make, and I would have had many situations akin to that faced by Russel County, Alabama today. (Russel County, right across the river from Columbus GA, is officially on Central Time, but as a practical matter observes Eastern Time to be aligned with Columbus.)
I accept that people are obliged to follow common schedules. However, the age-old complaints of "we don't want to send kids to school in the dark in December" and "in summer, we want more daylight after standard business hours, instead of before business hours" could be handled if school starting times and business hours shifted with the seasons, rather than going through the rigmarole of changing clocks twice a year.
Changing the clocks twice a year seems a lot easier than keeping track of when all my associated work, businesses, schools, transit systems, etc., change between summer and winter time if they are all changing with no coordination.
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 30, 2022, 03:45:19 PM
Things I am not fine with:
....
* Time zones defined in increments of less than a full hour.
Agreed. Newfoundland's half-hour difference from Atlantic time (and one-and-a-half hour diff from Eastern time) drove me crazy during my two visits there.
Quote from: oscar on October 30, 2022, 04:53:47 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 30, 2022, 03:45:19 PM
Things I am not fine with:
....
* Time zones defined in increments of less than a full hour.
Agreed. Newfoundland's half-hour difference from Atlantic time (and one-and-a-half hour diff from Eastern time) drove me crazy during my two visits there.
(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2016-05/11/1/enhanced/webdr12/enhanced-2798-1462944635-1.jpg)
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on October 30, 2022, 01:33:30 PM
I don't actually expect this plan to be adopted.
Well, that's good. Wouldn't want to see you go all fritzy on the subject!
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 30, 2022, 04:58:55 PM
Quote from: oscar on October 30, 2022, 04:53:47 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 30, 2022, 03:45:19 PM
Things I am not fine with:
....
* Time zones defined in increments of less than a full hour.
Agreed. Newfoundland's half-hour difference from Atlantic time (and one-and-a-half hour diff from Eastern time) drove me crazy during my two visits there.
(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2016-05/11/1/enhanced/webdr12/enhanced-2798-1462944635-1.jpg)
Is this in Nepal? Because I'm pretty sure Nepal is the only country on Earth with a 45-minute offset.
My immediate first thought was Australia. (Note that the sign is in English and only English.)
Quote from: 1 on November 01, 2022, 10:04:28 AM
My immediate first thought was Australia. (Note that the sign is in English and only English.)
I agree-probably Australia (https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zones/acwst).
Quote from: 1 on November 01, 2022, 10:04:28 AM
My immediate first thought was Australia. (Note that the sign is in English and only English.)
And it is on the left side of the road in a literally 'middle of nowhere' location. Also, note the English grammar.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on November 01, 2022, 10:52:02 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 01, 2022, 10:04:28 AM
My immediate first thought was Australia. (Note that the sign is in English and only English.)
And it is on the left side of the road in a literally 'middle of nowhere' location. Also, note the English grammar.
Also note that, if you google {central western time zone}, almost all of the hits mention Australia.
coming up next: +14 time zone and possible flights into the day before yesterday.....
Yes, it's Australia. Not sure if this one is the same location, (https://goo.gl/maps/4JdsgrDS5sfHsqGu9) but I believe it is.
(edited to add this because I got interrupted:) The time zone is "unofficial" and is used for convenience because of the hour-and-a-half jump when you cross the state line between Western Australia and South Australia.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 01, 2022, 12:01:01 PM
Yes, it's Australia. Not sure if this one is the same location, (https://goo.gl/maps/4JdsgrDS5sfHsqGu9) but I believe it is.
(edited to add this because I got interrupted:) The time zone is "unofficial" and is used for convenience because of the hour-and-a-half jump when you cross the state line between Western Australia and South Australia.
Then US should use interval half-hour time zones such as Central Eastern Time Zone.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on November 01, 2022, 12:22:12 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 01, 2022, 12:01:01 PM
Yes, it's Australia. Not sure if this one is the same location, (https://goo.gl/maps/4JdsgrDS5sfHsqGu9) but I believe it is.
(edited to add this because I got interrupted:) The time zone is "unofficial" and is used for convenience because of the hour-and-a-half jump when you cross the state line between Western Australia and South Australia.
Then US should use interval half-hour time zones such as Central Eastern Time Zone.
Where in the US can you drive across a time zone line and have to change your clock more than one hour?
Quote from: kphoger on November 01, 2022, 12:34:22 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on November 01, 2022, 12:22:12 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 01, 2022, 12:01:01 PM
Yes, it's Australia. Not sure if this one is the same location, (https://goo.gl/maps/4JdsgrDS5sfHsqGu9) but I believe it is.
(edited to add this because I got interrupted:) The time zone is "unofficial" and is used for convenience because of the hour-and-a-half jump when you cross the state line between Western Australia and South Australia.
Then US should use interval half-hour time zones such as Central Eastern Time Zone.
Where in the US can you drive across a time zone line and have to change your clock more than one hour?
In theory, if it's frozen over, from Little Diomede Island to Big Diomede Island. :)
Quote from: kphoger on November 01, 2022, 12:34:22 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on November 01, 2022, 12:22:12 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 01, 2022, 12:01:01 PM
Yes, it's Australia. Not sure if this one is the same location, (https://goo.gl/maps/4JdsgrDS5sfHsqGu9) but I believe it is.
(edited to add this because I got interrupted:) The time zone is "unofficial" and is used for convenience because of the hour-and-a-half jump when you cross the state line between Western Australia and South Australia.
Then US should use interval half-hour time zones such as Central Eastern Time Zone.
Where in the US can you drive across a time zone line and have to change your clock more than one hour?
Incidentally, the time change in the area I referenced in Australia is a bigger issue when DST is in effect. Western Australia doesn't observe DST, but South Australia does (I believe from the first Sunday in October to the first Sunday in April), so during that time period the difference is two and a half hours. The people who use "Central Western" time apparently do not use DST. I assume if they were to do so, then when DST is in effect they should have you set your clocks ahead 75 minutes instead of 45 minutes (i.e., 45 minutes is half of the non-DST 90-minute time difference, and 75 minutes is half of the DST 150-minute difference).
Quote from: Poiponen13 on November 01, 2022, 12:22:12 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 01, 2022, 12:01:01 PM
Yes, it's Australia. Not sure if this one is the same location, (https://goo.gl/maps/4JdsgrDS5sfHsqGu9) but I believe it is.
(edited to add this because I got interrupted:) The time zone is "unofficial" and is used for convenience because of the hour-and-a-half jump when you cross the state line between Western Australia and South Australia.
Then US should use interval half-hour time zones such as Central Eastern Time Zone.
I think we should bring back good old times before big government started to regulate too much. Good old times when each city had its own time zone. I am reluctantly OK with county specific time zones, though. Imagine the freedom of driving from NJ to Manhattan and having to adjust the clock by 3 minutes! That's the way to go! /s
The end of DST can't come soon enough, these past few mornings have been brutal.
Quote from: webny99 on November 01, 2022, 06:13:04 PM
The end of DST can't come soon enough, these past few mornings have been brutal.
Being dark before 5:00 next week will be even more brutal.
Quote from: webny99 on November 01, 2022, 06:13:04 PM
The end of DST can't come soon enough, these past few mornings have been brutal.
This sure sounds like
someone is trying to turn this into a DST thread. :eyebrow:
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 01, 2022, 06:20:54 PM
Quote from: webny99 on November 01, 2022, 06:13:04 PM
The end of DST can't come soon enough, these past few mornings have been brutal.
This sure sounds like someone is trying to turn this into a DST thread. :eyebrow:
Well, it kind of already was, just a slight variant!
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on November 01, 2022, 06:18:55 PM
Quote from: webny99 on November 01, 2022, 06:13:04 PM
The end of DST can't come soon enough, these past few mornings have been brutal.
Being dark before 5:00 next week will be even more brutal.
The early sunsets are not nearly as brutal as the late sunrises IMO. The earlier sunrise means going from waking up in the dark to waking up while it's light. The earlier sunset means going from staying awake after it gets dark to... staying awake after it gets dark.
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on November 01, 2022, 06:18:55 PM
Quote from: webny99 on November 01, 2022, 06:13:04 PM
The end of DST can't come soon enough, these past few mornings have been brutal.
Being dark before 5:00 next week will be even more brutal.
When the weather is cold, I don't have much inclination to be out and about in the evening anyway, so it might as well be dark. It's not like I'm about to go play Frisbee down at the park when it's 18°F and windy. Getting up and going to work while it's still dark and at its coldest, on the other hand, is what I find the least pleasant about winter, the most depressing and difficult to bear–and DST just makes that happen for a lot longer than it otherwise would. With a 6am wakeup time, I'd have to get up before dawn from October 4 through March 24 (172 days); because of DST, however, that span is a full six weeks longer.
Quote from: webny99 on November 01, 2022, 06:32:21 PM
The earlier sunrise means going from waking up in the dark to waking up while it's light. The earlier sunset means going from staying awake after it gets dark to... staying awake after it gets dark.
Well put.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 01, 2022, 06:20:54 PM
This sure sounds like someone is trying to turn this into a DST thread. :eyebrow:
It's like trying to stop a train.
Quote from: kphoger on November 01, 2022, 06:37:07 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 01, 2022, 06:20:54 PM
This sure sounds like someone is trying to turn this into a DST thread. :eyebrow:
It's like trying to stop a train.
I swear, I go to Nevada for
one week...
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 01, 2022, 06:39:28 PM
I swear, I go to Nevada for one week...
I swear! We just can't have nice forum threads!
get out your damn daubers I guess
(https://i.imgur.com/gZhqsX1.png)
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 01, 2022, 07:09:48 PM
get out your damn daubers I guess
(https://i.imgur.com/gZhqsX1.png)
Where's the square for "Ben Franklin"?
The graphic is great, but "dauber" alone made it totally worth it :-D
You also left out "color shaded maps".
Quote from: webny99 on November 01, 2022, 07:38:21 PM
The graphic is great, but "dauber" alone made it totally worth it :-D
Don't tell me you use a regular marker on your bingo paper like some sort of pleb.
(https://i.imgur.com/HGqgqKP.png)
Quote from: kphoger on November 01, 2022, 07:11:30 PM
Where's the square for "Ben Franklin"?
Quote from: kphoger on November 01, 2022, 07:43:35 PM
You also left out "color shaded maps".
This is my card, get your own :P
Quote from: JayhawkCO on November 01, 2022, 12:38:46 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 01, 2022, 12:34:22 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on November 01, 2022, 12:22:12 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 01, 2022, 12:01:01 PM
Yes, it's Australia. Not sure if this one is the same location, (https://goo.gl/maps/4JdsgrDS5sfHsqGu9) but I believe it is.
(edited to add this because I got interrupted:) The time zone is "unofficial" and is used for convenience because of the hour-and-a-half jump when you cross the state line between Western Australia and South Australia.
Then US should use interval half-hour time zones such as Central Eastern Time Zone.
Where in the US can you drive across a time zone line and have to change your clock more than one hour?
In theory, if it's frozen over, from Little Diomede Island to Big Diomede Island. :)
I am not sure the pack ice is ever solid enough to drive. Sled, maybe.
Am I the only one here who doesn't have circadian rhythms? If I don't set an alarm, I won't get up in the mornings. Without an alarm, it's typical for me to sleep until 10 a.m. or later, and that's if I go to bed at 10 p.m.
My sleep patterns have been messed up since I was in college, and had to stay up pretty much all night once a week the spring semester of my sophomore year putting our college newspaper together.
That's been 40 years ago and I still haven't made up all the sleep I lost.
I suspect that my natural circadian rhythm is somewhat longer than 24 hours. If I don't specifically force myself to wake up at the same time every day, I'll go to sleep/wake up later and later each day.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 02, 2022, 12:33:18 PMAm I the only one here who doesn't have circadian rhythms?
Some people have long-lasting disturbance of their sleep patterns as a result of disease. I have a friend who had meningitis at age four, and that was one of the consequences; another was profound hearing loss.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 12:41:41 PMI suspect that my natural circadian rhythm is somewhat longer than 24 hours. If I don't specifically force myself to wake up at the same time every day, I'll go to sleep/wake up later and later each day.
Most humans have a daily period of 25 hours, so retarding sleep/wake times one hour every day is what tends to happen in environments with absolutely no natural light.
What did you just call Scott?
Quote from: J N Winkler on November 02, 2022, 01:01:36 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 12:41:41 PMI suspect that my natural circadian rhythm is somewhat longer than 24 hours. If I don't specifically force myself to wake up at the same time every day, I'll go to sleep/wake up later and later each day.
Most humans have a daily period of 25 hours, so retarding sleep/wake times one hour every day is what tends to happen in environments with absolutely no natural light.
This makes sense. Because of my long period of time working swing and graveyard shifts, my body appears to be trained to no longer use natural light as a cue to trigger sleep/wake cycles. (And because of the necessity of sleeping while the sun was out while on 2nd/3rd shift, all of the sleeping areas of our house have as little natural light as is practical, thanks to the use of heavy blackout curtains. So even if it weren't, there wouldn't be much natural light for it to go on anyway.)
Quote from: kphoger on November 02, 2022, 01:28:58 PM
What did you just call Scott?
It's J.N. Winkler, so I am sure it is accurate and well-researched. :D
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 03:03:49 PMQuote from: kphoger on November 02, 2022, 01:28:58 PMWhat did you just call Scott?
It's J.N. Winkler, so I am sure it is accurate and well-researched. :D
Thanks for the kind words! The bit about the 25-hour natural cycle is actually a staple of introductory psychology classes--I picked it up from a textbook I used to study for the AP Psychology exam. It was found through experiments in which subjects were put in underground bunkers for several weeks and allowed to control their artificial lighting, though they were sheltered from natural light and timekeeping devices. Wikipedia says more recent research, performed about 20 years ago with the aim of controlling for the phase-delaying effects of artificial light (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm#Humans), has found a natural daily cycle closer to 24 hours (24.09 hours for women and 24.19 for men).
Yes, the natural cycle in the absence of natural light is longer than 24 hours. But the natural cycle in most people resets with morning daylight, or an artificial substitute that's bright enough.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 02, 2022, 12:33:18 PM
Am I the only one here who doesn't have circadian rhythms? If I don't set an alarm, I won't get up in the mornings. Without an alarm, it's typical for me to sleep until 10 a.m. or later, and that's if I go to bed at 10 p.m.
My sleep patterns have been messed up since I was in college, and had to stay up pretty much all night once a week the spring semester of my sophomore year putting our college newspaper together.
That's been 40 years ago and I still haven't made up all the sleep I lost.
My wife is similar. If she doesn't set an alarm and a cat doesn't start licking her face, she'll sleep 10+ hours.
I can't sleep more than 8.5-9 hours unless I'm sick or have been really short on sleep the previous couple days. I wake up before my alarm goes off more days than not.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 02, 2022, 10:51:20 PM
My wife is similar. If she doesn't set an alarm and a cat doesn't start licking her face, she'll sleep 10+ hours.
And?!
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 09:51:56 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 02, 2022, 10:51:20 PM
My wife is similar. If she doesn't set an alarm and a cat doesn't start licking her face, she'll sleep 10+ hours.
And?!
It's correct as is, due to both sides being negatives. If she sets an alarm, the first part won't be true, so it won't apply. If a cat starts licking her face, the second part won't be true, so it won't apply.
I think I get what you're saying, but it still seems to me like the bolded "and" should be "or".
Quote from: webny99 on November 03, 2022, 10:14:27 AM
I think I get what you're saying, but it still seems to me like the bolded "and" should be "or".
No, if it was or, it would be this:
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 02, 2022, 10:51:20 PM
My wife is similar. If she doesn't set an alarm or a cat doesn't start licking her face, she'll sleep 10+ hours.
With this modification, only (at least) one of the halves would need to be true for her to sleep 10+ hours. If she sets an alarm but a cat doesn't start licking her face, the conditional
will be true, and she will sleep 10+ hours despite setting an alarm.
And that's exactly what I was surprised by. I'm well aware of the difference between the words and and or. It just surprised me that, if a cat started licking someone's face, she would continue sleeping until the alarm sounded.
First of all, my wife would be horrified if I told her there's now a 7+ post strand about her sleep habits.
Secondly, "and" is appropriate because both conditions need to be met. She must not have an alarm set to sleep 10+ hours. A cat must not lick her face to sleep 10+ hours.
It would have been equally grammatically correct, but perhaps clearer, if I had said, "my wife can sleep 10+ hours unless she has an alarm set or a cat licks her face."
Wow, I haven't done logic like this in a while...
Let A = She had set an alarm.
Let B = A cat starts licking her face.
Let C = She sleeps ten hours or more.
(¬A & ¬B) ⊃ C
¬C
∴ _________ ?
Technically, he didn't say "if and only if", so it might be that his wife sleeps at least ten hours even if she sets an alarm and a cat starts licking her face. Who knows?
:hmmm:
If a cat's involved, logic cannot be involved.
Any cat caretaker knows this.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 03, 2022, 12:20:39 PM
If a cat's involved, logic cannot be involved.
Any cat caretaker knows this.
One more thing about cats - they don't care if DST just switched!
Newsflash: Boolean logic and English grammar are different.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 03, 2022, 11:32:16 AM
First of all, my wife would be horrified if I told her there's now a 7+ post strand about her sleep habits.
Fortunately, the discussion has been entirely about the language itself, not the subject matter!
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 11:20:03 AM
It just surprised me that, if a cat started licking someone's face, she would continue sleeping until the alarm sounded.
But I don't think that's the case:
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 03, 2022, 11:32:16 AM
"and" is appropriate because both conditions need to be met.
... and maybe you already figured that out, given your previous post.
I was still confused until I started typing this reply. I get it now.
If (she doesn't set an alarm and a cat doesn't start licking her face) then (she'll sleep 10+ hours).
... although that still leaves the following questions unanswered:
1. If both conditions are not met (if an alarm is set and a cat starts licking her face), then it is unknown if she'll sleep 10+ hours or not.
2. If only one condition is met (if only the alarm or the cat, but not both, are in play), then it is unknown if she'll sleep 10+ hours or not.
This conversation is about XOR (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_or).
Quote from: kphoger on November 01, 2022, 06:37:07 PM
Quote from: webny99 on November 01, 2022, 06:32:21 PM
The earlier sunrise means going from waking up in the dark to waking up while it's light. The earlier sunset means going from staying awake after it gets dark to... staying awake after it gets dark.
Well put.
I think this is the most sane opinion I've heard anyone have on DST. I personally think that Standard Time is easier on the average person's circadian rhythm than DST is.
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 04:27:18 PM
... although that still leaves the following questions unanswered:
1. If both conditions are not met (if an alarm is set and a cat starts licking her face), then it is unknown if she'll sleep 10+ hours or not.
2. If only one condition is met (if only the alarm or the cat, but not both, are in play), then it is unknown if she'll sleep 10+ hours or not.
OK, now this is going too far :-D
I think we can infer the answer: 10+ hours of sleep occurs only if there's no alarm and no cat licking.
Quote from: CoreySamson on November 03, 2022, 05:11:31 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 01, 2022, 06:37:07 PM
Quote from: webny99 on November 01, 2022, 06:32:21 PM
The earlier sunrise means going from waking up in the dark to waking up while it's light. The earlier sunset means going from staying awake after it gets dark to... staying awake after it gets dark.
Well put.
I think this is the most sane opinion I've heard anyone have on DST. I personally think that Standard Time is easier on the average person's circadian rhythm than DST is.
Thanks! I agree with that, but it is also nice to have longer evenings in the summer, hence why I'm OK with DST existing, but I think it should be for less of the year. Honestly, I'd be OK with returning to how it was prior to the 2007 extension.
Considering most people do their errands, visit people, or are generally recreating AFTER work, it makes more sense to preserve as much daylight as we can for those hours. Waking up dark is something we're used to in winter anyway, but the 4 pm sunsets are brutal. That extra hour makes all the difference for mental health.
(https://i.imgur.com/oLXcXlF.png)
Quote from: Bruce on November 03, 2022, 09:50:24 PM
Considering most people do their errands, visit people, or are generally recreating AFTER work, it makes more sense to preserve as much daylight as we can for those hours. Waking up dark is something we're used to in winter anyway, but the 4 pm sunsets are brutal. That extra hour makes all the difference for mental health.
Too bad they are not using artificial lighting in your area. Over here, stores are well illuminated during shopping hours, even when the sun is down.
Quote from: kalvado on November 03, 2022, 10:05:12 PM
Quote from: Bruce on November 03, 2022, 09:50:24 PM
Considering most people do their errands, visit people, or are generally recreating AFTER work, it makes more sense to preserve as much daylight as we can for those hours. Waking up dark is something we're used to in winter anyway, but the 4 pm sunsets are brutal. That extra hour makes all the difference for mental health.
Too bad they are not using artificial lighting in your area. Over here, stores are well illuminated during shopping hours, even when the sun is down.
Getting to and from those places can be pretty difficult when it's dark. Illumination reflecting off wet pavement makes for some awful visibility.
And don't get me started on bicycling in the dark.
Quote from: Bruce on November 03, 2022, 09:50:24 PM
Waking up dark is something we're used to in winter anyway ...
That's not really the case in most of the country unless you wake up very early. 6:30 to 7:30 is almost always light out except for the past few weeks and a few weeks in late December/early January.
Quote from: webny99 on November 03, 2022, 10:30:23 PM
Quote from: Bruce on November 03, 2022, 09:50:24 PM
Waking up dark is something we're used to in winter anyway ...
That's not really the case in most of the country unless you wake up very early. 6:30 to 7:30 is almost always light out except for the past few weeks and a few weeks in late December/early January.
Unless you're already one time zone east of your natural time zone and then also on DST. In South Bend, sunrise goes later than 7:30 on September 21 and stays later until the first week after the switch back to Standard time, then doesn't go back after 7:30 again until February 22.
Quote from: webny99 on November 03, 2022, 10:30:23 PM
Quote from: Bruce on November 03, 2022, 09:50:24 PM
Waking up dark is something we're used to in winter anyway ...
That's not really the case in most of the country unless you wake up very early. 6:30 to 7:30 is almost always light out except for the past few weeks and a few weeks in late December/early January.
https://twitter.com/Climatologist49/status/1204523852794974209/photo/1
Quote from: US 89 on November 03, 2022, 11:29:20 PM
Quote from: webny99 on November 03, 2022, 10:30:23 PM
Quote from: Bruce on November 03, 2022, 09:50:24 PM
Waking up dark is something we're used to in winter anyway ...
That's not really the case in most of the country unless you wake up very early. 6:30 to 7:30 is almost always light out except for the past few weeks and a few weeks in late December/early January.
[tweet]
Yes, the vast majority of the country is in a red, orange, or yellow zone (I'm in yellow). My statement would apply to all three.
What if we just did UTC?
Quote from: Bruce on November 03, 2022, 10:16:41 PM
Quote from: kalvado on November 03, 2022, 10:05:12 PM
Quote from: Bruce on November 03, 2022, 09:50:24 PM
Considering most people do their errands, visit people, or are generally recreating AFTER work, it makes more sense to preserve as much daylight as we can for those hours. Waking up dark is something we're used to in winter anyway, but the 4 pm sunsets are brutal. That extra hour makes all the difference for mental health.
Too bad they are not using artificial lighting in your area. Over here, stores are well illuminated during shopping hours, even when the sun is down.
Getting to and from those places can be pretty difficult when it's dark. Illumination reflecting off wet pavement makes for some awful visibility.
And don't get me started on bicycling in the dark.
I see your concerns and raise you to biking in the snow with wind-chill of 0F
Since we're going there...
I'm looking forward to having it be a bit brighter out in the morning when I go to work. It was still dark out leaving my house around 7:10 this morning.
Maybe the real problem is having to work 8 hours when there's only about 10 hours of daylight, which is something that isn't going to change for most people.
Quote from: kalvado on November 04, 2022, 09:16:28 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on November 04, 2022, 08:10:13 AM
Quote from: Rothman on November 04, 2022, 07:18:41 AM
What if we just did UTC?
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 03, 2022, 10:05:03 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/oLXcXlF.png)
BINGO!!!
But I wasn't even born in 1974!
Do you not understand how Bingo works? There's a row and Rothman's comment marked off the final square of that row; hence, a BINGO!
I think the "1974" comment was just checking off another box, not responding to the BINGO.
How was "pre-2007" not on the Bingo board?
Quote from: kirbykart on November 04, 2022, 09:40:54 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 04, 2022, 09:16:28 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on November 04, 2022, 08:10:13 AM
Quote from: Rothman on November 04, 2022, 07:18:41 AM
What if we just did UTC?
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 03, 2022, 10:05:03 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/oLXcXlF.png)
BINGO!!!
But I wasn't even born in 1974!
Do you not understand how Bingo works? There's a row and Rothman's comment marked off the final square of that row; hence, a BINGO!
Is this a bingo like Bingo the dog the farmer had or like the bingo in Inglorious Basterds?
What happens if it's Schroedinger's cat that licks you?
Quote from: webny99 on November 04, 2022, 09:47:57 AM
I think the "1974" comment was just checking off another box, not responding to the BINGO.
And if someone's religious practices limit the discussion to filling up just one row on a card....
Quote from: hbelkins on November 04, 2022, 11:53:06 AM
What happens if it's Schroedinger's cat that licks you?
Then she wakes up and stays asleep for 10+ hours at the same time.
Quote from: kirbykart on November 04, 2022, 09:40:54 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 04, 2022, 09:16:28 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on November 04, 2022, 08:10:13 AM
Quote from: Rothman on November 04, 2022, 07:18:41 AM
What if we just did UTC?
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 03, 2022, 10:05:03 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/oLXcXlF.png)
BINGO!!!
But I wasn't even born in 1974!
Do you not understand how Bingo works? There's a row and Rothman's comment marked off the final square of that row; hence, a BINGO!
I made a comment about just going to worldwide UTC/zulu time very early in this thread.
:-P
Mike
Quote from: royo6022 on November 04, 2022, 03:45:24 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 04, 2022, 11:53:06 AM
What happens if it's Schroedinger's cat that licks you?
Then she wakes up and stays asleep for 10+ hours at the same time.
As is required by law ever since the Edict of Shroedinger [sic] v_2.0 was passed on Alan Register's first day in office. (An addendum added to the backside of the napkin outlines the system of punishments and rewards based on the number of offenses.)
Full text version here:
Edict of Shroedinger [sic] v_2.0 – English, rev. 1d. (http://www.geocities.ws/CollegePark/Quad/4201/spam.htm)
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 03, 2022, 10:05:03 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/oLXcXlF.png)
I'm approaching a blackout!