Time zones

[MikeTheActuary]

I posted this before, but since the subject won't go away....


Premise:

• Boundaries follow the TV market boundaries, and assume no time changes
  
• Goal was to minimize the error of "light" vs "dark" in the major city of each market given certain common preferences, with extra weight given to "morning commute" and "evening commute" hours (this was put together before the pandemic made WFH popular.
  
• Major time zones are set to UTC -4½, -5½, -6½, and -7½, because otherwise I ended up with an indicated time zone boundary splitting the Northeast Corridor and having San Francisco and Los Angeles in different time zone...and I think neither option would be considered acceptable by people with interests in those areas.  I acknowledge that some people can't get over the mental stumbling block of not being even-hours' difference from UTC....but otherwise the "keep the Northeast Corridor together / keep SF and LA together" criterion, the "no time change" criterion, or the "common expectations about when it should be light/dark" criterion needs to go.
  
• Detroit/Toledo are a problem.  With my algorithm Detroit indicates as just barely Eastern, and Toledo as just barely Central, but some folks have strong opinions that they should be in the same time zone.
  
• Similarly, some people have very strong opinions that the LP of Michigan should be in the same time zone as Detroit.  If Detroit were in Central that wouldn't be a problem.  Another option would be to put Detroit/Toledo/the LP in a special time zone between Central and Eastern.  (Doubt that would happen because of a general dislike of half-hour time differences.)
  
• Texas is a problem as well.   The line between Central and Mountain should fall just west of Dallas, but I anticipate the next markets west would want to be in the same time zone as Dallas.   The options would seem to be to accept that additional sunrises/sunsets will be "too late" in central and possibly western Texas, or (unlikely) put the Texas markets half-way between Central and Mountain time.
  
• Fargo and Sioux Falls markets have the problem of being geographically large and both cities' being very close to the logical divide between Central and Mountain....
  
• Yuma is right on the line between Mountain and Pacific, and I'm not going to pretend to know which would be better for folks in that market.
  
• Eastern Idaho and Western Montana have a similar issue.
  
• My "minimize error" algorithm breaks down in Alaska due to the implications of high latitude.
  

I don't actually expect this plan to be adopted.  Too many people have too strong, conflicting opinions about their favorite places sharing a time zone with their other favorite places, of being whole-hours' different from some standard, and preferences of whether they prefer their daylight to be "early" vs "late".

I'd actually prefer that people be less hung-up over forcing the numbers on the clock to fit their lifestyles, and instead adapt their schedules (changing them with the season, if necessary) based on their preferences for daylight/darkness....but that's also apparently too much to hope for.

I fully expect there to be no change in time zones, and no abolition of DST, because there's no realistic hope of developing enough consensus to make a change.

[Scott5114]

I'd actually prefer that people be less hung-up over forcing the numbers on the clock to fit their lifestyles, and instead adapt their schedules (changing them with the season, if necessary) based on their preferences for daylight/darkness....but that's also apparently too much to hope for.

The problem is that most people have other people in power (bosses, school administrators, retailers, etc.) that dictate when they must be active according to the clock.

If you can somehow rid yourself of these people (say, by getting a job where you do not need to be on call at any particular time, and living in a city where 24-hour establishments are available) it is a fantastic luxury to be able to adapt to the whims of one's own circadian rhythm.

[kkt]

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand what problem the half hour differences from UTC are intended to solve.  Or, for that matter, what the different shading patterns mean.  It probably doesn't help that at default size in the screen that captions are too small to read, while clicking on it makes the entire image so big only 1/8 of it fits on the screen at once.

How important are TV markets, now?  Aren't most people getting their content from streaming or cable?

I'm fine with Seattle's time zone and switching to standard time for the winter and DST for the summer.  I would not want daylight to start in the summer hours before it was time to get up, nor with it still being pitch dark in the morning during the morning commute.

Most people do NOT have the choice to ignore civil time and show up for work or school at a time of their preference.

[MikeTheActuary]

Re the half-hour differences:  My objective was to minimize the "light" vs "dark" error given common preferences about whether it should be light/dark at different times.

If I limited the exercise to time zones being whole hours different from UTC, I ended up with Washington DC and New York in different time zones, and San Francisco and Los Angeles in different time zones.  I also had an indicated time zone boundary being drawn near the Mississippi River.

By shifting Eastern to UTC-4½, etc. I was able to minimize error and have the time zone boundaries fall in less-populated corridors (although Detroit and central Texas still pose problems).

Regarding the shading -- The regions with non-solid colors are generally those that I described in my narrative.  They're places where my attempts to "miminize error" conflict with opinions commonly expressed online about certain neighboring areas that should be on the same time....or a couple of places where I'm not familiar with such opinions. 

The best example is the LP of Michigan, Detroit, and Toledo.   The Eastern/Central time zone boundary should pass very close to Toledo and Detroit, potentially dividing the two cities, and the LP of Michigan should be on Central time.   Toledo and Detroit could be in either UTC-4½ or UTC-5½ without significantly increasing error.   But the LP of Michigan should not be in UTC-5½.

Regarding the size of the image -- It's an artifact of the tool used to create the image.   Once you have the image open as its own file, most programs have a way for you to scroll or scale the image based on your preferences / limitations of your monitor.

Regarding TV markets-- I don't know that they're that important these days, but I still assume that people prefer to be in the same time zone as "their" primary city.  I used TV markets as a proxy for this purpose.  Without this, I would have had 20 times the number of calcluations to make, and I would have had many situations akin to that faced by Russel County, Alabama today.  (Russel County, right across the river from Columbus GA, is officially on Central Time, but as a practical matter observes Eastern Time to be aligned with Columbus.)

I accept that people are obliged to follow common schedules.  However, the age-old complaints of "we don't want to send kids to school in the dark in December" and "in summer, we want more daylight after standard business hours, instead of before business hours" could be handled if school starting times and business hours shifted with the seasons, rather than going through the rigmarole of changing clocks twice a year.

[J N Winkler]

Things I am fine with:

*  Being up to an hour away from my "natural" time zone (defined as a 15° longitudinal band without reference to any other geographical features).

*  Commuting in the dark for part of the year.

*  Having daylight overlap with part of my sleeping hours.  (This is unavoidable at high latitudes.)

Things I am not fine with:

*  Moving the clocks an hour forward or an hour backward at arbitrary times of the year.

*  Time zones defined in increments of less than a full hour.

[Scott5114]

Anyone who has an opinion on daylight savings time should be legally compelled to do four-year terms on graveyard shift until the opinion subsides.

[kkt]

Re the half-hour differences:  My objective was to minimize the "light" vs "dark" error given common preferences about whether it should be light/dark at different times.

If I limited the exercise to time zones being whole hours different from UTC, I ended up with Washington DC and New York in different time zones, and San Francisco and Los Angeles in different time zones.  I also had an indicated time zone boundary being drawn near the Mississippi River.

By shifting Eastern to UTC-4½, etc. I was able to minimize error and have the time zone boundaries fall in less-populated corridors (although Detroit and central Texas still pose problems).

Regarding the shading -- The regions with non-solid colors are generally those that I described in my narrative.  They're places where my attempts to "miminize error" conflict with opinions commonly expressed online about certain neighboring areas that should be on the same time....or a couple of places where I'm not familiar with such opinions. 

The best example is the LP of Michigan, Detroit, and Toledo.   The Eastern/Central time zone boundary should pass very close to Toledo and Detroit, potentially dividing the two cities, and the LP of Michigan should be on Central time.   Toledo and Detroit could be in either UTC-4½ or UTC-5½ without significantly increasing error.   But the LP of Michigan should not be in UTC-5½.

Regarding the size of the image -- It's an artifact of the tool used to create the image.   Once you have the image open as its own file, most programs have a way for you to scroll or scale the image based on your preferences / limitations of your monitor.

Regarding TV markets-- I don't know that they're that important these days, but I still assume that people prefer to be in the same time zone as "their" primary city.  I used TV markets as a proxy for this purpose.  Without this, I would have had 20 times the number of calcluations to make, and I would have had many situations akin to that faced by Russel County, Alabama today.  (Russel County, right across the river from Columbus GA, is officially on Central Time, but as a practical matter observes Eastern Time to be aligned with Columbus.)

I accept that people are obliged to follow common schedules.  However, the age-old complaints of "we don't want to send kids to school in the dark in December" and "in summer, we want more daylight after standard business hours, instead of before business hours" could be handled if school starting times and business hours shifted with the seasons, rather than going through the rigmarole of changing clocks twice a year.

Changing the clocks twice a year seems a lot easier than keeping track of when all my associated work, businesses, schools, transit systems, etc., change between summer and winter time if they are all changing with no coordination.

[oscar]

Things I am not fine with:

....

*  Time zones defined in increments of less than a full hour.

Agreed. Newfoundland's half-hour difference from Atlantic time (and one-and-a-half hour diff from Eastern time) drove me crazy during my two visits there.

[1995hoo]

Things I am not fine with:

....

*  Time zones defined in increments of less than a full hour.

Agreed. Newfoundland's half-hour difference from Atlantic time (and one-and-a-half hour diff from Eastern time) drove me crazy during my two visits there.

[kphoger]

I don't actually expect this plan to be adopted.

Well, that's good.  Wouldn't want to see you go all fritzy on the subject!

[kirbykart]

Things I am not fine with:

....

*  Time zones defined in increments of less than a full hour.

Agreed. Newfoundland's half-hour difference from Atlantic time (and one-and-a-half hour diff from Eastern time) drove me crazy during my two visits there.

Is this in Nepal? Because I'm pretty sure Nepal is the only country on Earth with a 45-minute offset.

[hotdogPi]

My immediate first thought was Australia. (Note that the sign is in English and only English.)

[zzcarp]

My immediate first thought was Australia. (Note that the sign is in English and only English.)

I agree-probably Australia.

[mgk920]

My immediate first thought was Australia. (Note that the sign is in English and only English.)

And it is on the left side of the road in a literally 'middle of nowhere' location.  Also, note the English grammar.

Mike

[kphoger]

My immediate first thought was Australia. (Note that the sign is in English and only English.)

And it is on the left side of the road in a literally 'middle of nowhere' location.  Also, note the English grammar.

Also note that, if you google {central western time zone}, almost all of the hits mention Australia.

[kalvado]

coming up next: +14 time zone and possible flights into the day before yesterday.....

[1995hoo]

Yes, it's Australia. Not sure if this one is the same location, but I believe it is.

(edited to add this because I got interrupted:) The time zone is "unofficial" and is used for convenience because of the hour-and-a-half jump when you cross the state line between Western Australia and South Australia.

[Poiponen13]

Yes, it's Australia. Not sure if this one is the same location, but I believe it is.

(edited to add this because I got interrupted:) The time zone is "unofficial" and is used for convenience because of the hour-and-a-half jump when you cross the state line between Western Australia and South Australia.

Then US should use interval half-hour time zones such as Central Eastern Time Zone.

[kphoger]

Yes, it's Australia. Not sure if this one is the same location, but I believe it is.

(edited to add this because I got interrupted:) The time zone is "unofficial" and is used for convenience because of the hour-and-a-half jump when you cross the state line between Western Australia and South Australia.

Then US should use interval half-hour time zones such as Central Eastern Time Zone.

Where in the US can you drive across a time zone line and have to change your clock more than one hour?

[JayhawkCO]

Yes, it's Australia. Not sure if this one is the same location, but I believe it is.

(edited to add this because I got interrupted:) The time zone is "unofficial" and is used for convenience because of the hour-and-a-half jump when you cross the state line between Western Australia and South Australia.

Then US should use interval half-hour time zones such as Central Eastern Time Zone.

Where in the US can you drive across a time zone line and have to change your clock more than one hour?

In theory, if it's frozen over, from Little Diomede Island to Big Diomede Island.

[1995hoo]

Yes, it's Australia. Not sure if this one is the same location, but I believe it is.

(edited to add this because I got interrupted:) The time zone is "unofficial" and is used for convenience because of the hour-and-a-half jump when you cross the state line between Western Australia and South Australia.

Then US should use interval half-hour time zones such as Central Eastern Time Zone.

Where in the US can you drive across a time zone line and have to change your clock more than one hour?

Incidentally, the time change in the area I referenced in Australia is a bigger issue when DST is in effect. Western Australia doesn't observe DST, but South Australia does (I believe from the first Sunday in October to the first Sunday in April), so during that time period the difference is two and a half hours. The people who use "Central Western" time apparently do not use DST. I assume if they were to do so, then when DST is in effect they should have you set your clocks ahead 75 minutes instead of 45 minutes (i.e., 45 minutes is half of the non-DST 90-minute time difference, and 75 minutes is half of the DST 150-minute difference).

[kalvado]

Yes, it's Australia. Not sure if this one is the same location, but I believe it is.

(edited to add this because I got interrupted:) The time zone is "unofficial" and is used for convenience because of the hour-and-a-half jump when you cross the state line between Western Australia and South Australia.

Then US should use interval half-hour time zones such as Central Eastern Time Zone.

I think we should bring back good old times before big government started to regulate too much. Good old times when each city had its own time zone. I am reluctantly OK with county specific time zones, though.  Imagine the freedom of driving from NJ to Manhattan and having to adjust the clock by 3 minutes!  That's the way to go! /s

[webny99]

The end of DST can't come soon enough, these past few mornings have been brutal.

[jp the roadgeek]

The end of DST can't come soon enough, these past few mornings have been brutal.

Being dark before 5:00 next week will be even more brutal. 

[Scott5114]

The end of DST can't come soon enough, these past few mornings have been brutal.

This sure sounds like someone is trying to turn this into a DST thread.