Alright, who here are really annoyed by people who think that they need to attempt to pass somebody right before a construction zone?
When I was just coming back from Pocono this weekend, we encountered a Construction Zone on I-80 WB just after US-11. The Right Lane was going to be closed. So, me and the family pull over into the left lane about 1/2 mile before the zone along with a trucker that was right in front of us. Same with a few other cars that were behind us. Well, then two IDIOTS who where behind the car behind us decided they didn't want to go the SL while going up the hill into the zone. So, the 2 jerks pull out to pass on the right. They pass the guy behind us and then us. THEN, they realize that the signs weren't lying about the CZ...... So, what do you think they do?
A) Backoff and get back inline behind the guy behind us.
B) Still attempt to pass the truck.
C) Shoot for the really small gap between us and the Truck.
Well, if you guessed C, you're correct. Both IDIOTS attempt to get into the small gap between us and the truck AT THE SAME TIME! The 2nd car barely cleared us with 3-5 feet of space. Thankfully there wasn't a wreck. But if there was, I would have made sure the jackasses would have gotten tickets from the cop that responded for reckless driving....
So, have anybody else encountered complete idiots like that?
Come over to New Jersey more often. You will get to see maneuvers like that whether it be in a construction zone or not. I generally anticipate the worst when driving and am rarely disappointed.
When I was in KC back in June, there was a construction zone along I-35 south of Kearney. When the signs said "Left Lane Closed Ahead", it seems like everyone shifted left and floored it causing a traffic jam the the point the lane actually closed. THEN, the pick-up in front of me decided to straddle the lanes and cause an ever bigger tie up. Of course, the state police were nowhere in sight.
We used to wrap up the pre-shift meeting at work with a "Question of the Day" that one of us suggested. After we ran out of bland stuff like "What's your favorite color" and such, we started getting more inventive. One day I supplied the question "You're on the interstate and see signs stating one of the lanes is closing ahead. Do you try to pass as many people as possible or get over immediately?" You wouldn't believe it but some people were downright proud of the fact that they would get right up to the cones before merging in! The crew was split about 50/50 on the question. It was probably the most animated response to a question we'd ever had.
One of my friends related a story she observed about someone so insistent on passing a car before changing lanes that they ended crashing into the arrow panel!
I don't dispute the idiocy of the drivers described in the examples below, but do I want to point out I've been through construction zones where traffic is instructed not to merge until the merge point. You can fit more backed-up traffic in two queues than in just one.
Quote from: usends on August 04, 2010, 10:02:22 AM
I don't dispute the idiocy of the drivers described in the examples below, but do I want to point out I've been through construction zones where traffic is instructed not to merge until the merge point. You can fit more backed-up traffic in two queues than in just one.
There was a big thread on MTR about this a few years ago. Pennsylvania was instructing people to use both lanes right up to the merge point and then alternate. At the same time Tennessee was making it illegal to be in the lane that was to be closed after you pass a certain point.
As for me, i always try to get in the lane that is going to stay open as soon as I can. I hate being stuck in the lane that runs out and having to rely on a good Samaritan to let me in.
There's nothing at all wrong with waiting until the merge point to merge, as long as it's done correctly- for me it's related to the amount of traffic- if there's a lot of traffic to the point where it backs up I feel more comfortable waiting until the merge point anyway (as opposed to trying to get somebody to let me in, it becomes, "let me in or your car is toast" because my pavement is becoming your pavement), while in less-trafficky areas where a lane change isn't a pain in the butt I don't see much of a need and would rather just get over.
This sounds like a situation where there wasn't much traffic, which in my mind makes it just obnoxious.
Quote from: signalman on August 04, 2010, 03:56:07 AM
Come over to New Jersey more often. You will get to see maneuvers like that whether it be in a construction zone or not. I generally anticipate the worst when driving and am rarely disappointed.
Sounds like New Jersey drivers took lessons in Chicago.
Here, they ride the closed lane up until its end then try to bull their way into traffic. They cut through (yes, I said through) the closed off area to reach their exit (usually when it is a local/express set up so IDOT or ISTHA can work on the middle lanes). The work zone speed limit (draconian as it may be at 45 mph) means nothing. Hell, why use the road when the shoulder is open and ready for use? :banghead:
There is a reason "Chicago Driver" is an insult in Michigan and Wisconsin, and why "FIB" is such a common phrase in Wisconsin.
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on August 04, 2010, 02:35:27 AM
When I was just coming back from Pocono this weekend, we encountered a Construction Zone on I-80 WB just after US-11. The Right Lane was going to be closed. So, me and the family pull over into the left lane about 1/2 mile before the zone along with a trucker that was right in front of us.
Which is why in the UK it's the fast lane that is normally closed on the approach to construction zones even if it's the other lane that's being worked on. That way you don't have slow traffic moving into the last lane 1/2 mile before the lane drop causing frustration to faster traffic behind.
In my experience I've found drivers are generally more aggressive here than in North America. On the approaches to construction there's always cars zooming along the lane that's closed ahead and cutting in at the last minute causing a queue behind. Some areas are using merge in turn signs but it doesn't seem to work. In one construction area at the moment they've put posters on the bridges saying "Patience Prevents Patients" but if you drive too leisurely you simply leave a gap in front for the lane swapping morons to pull into. What large truckers do is drive their vehicles on the stripes between both lanes which stops these idiots getting past and cutting in at the last minute.
I've seen trucks do that here too. I personally usually just find someone to let me in, and if I start to get close to where the lane ends I'll just squeeze my way in. I never delibrately fly around everybody to merge in at the last minute though, and I hate the people who let those idiots in. I sure don't.
Happens in NY too. I've only done it once, and in that case traffic was so backed up that you couldn't see the sign for the lane closure until it was too late. There was a zipper movement until some idiots decided to cut me off.
Quote from: corco on August 04, 2010, 10:24:12 AM
This sounds like a situation where there wasn't much traffic, which in my mind makes it just obnoxious.
If you're talking about my original post, you would be correct. There wasn't much traffic at all on I-80 in that area when I was there.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on August 04, 2010, 11:38:21 AM
I've seen trucks do that here too. I personally usually just find someone to let me in, and if I start to get close to where the lane ends I'll just squeeze my way in. I never delibrately fly around everybody to merge in at the last minute though, and I hate the people who let those idiots in. I sure don't.
We had no choice. They were coming over and they didn't care if they caused a wreck. Right there, it was better to back off a tad than have a wrecked car and no way to get home.
QuoteIf you're talking about my original post, you would be correct. There wasn't much traffic at all on I-80 in that area when I was there.
Yeah, that's ridiculous.
In a situation like that the premise is absolutely hilarious too- odds are very good they won't get to their destination any faster, as there was almost certainly somebody going slower than you in front of you, so there's really no point or value gained from passing dangerously. I'd quasi-understand if there were legitimate time to be saved, but I'm sure he just arrived at whatever slower moving vehicle a couple seconds before you.
Quote from: hbelkins on August 04, 2010, 10:22:03 AM
At the same time Tennessee was making it illegal to be in the lane that was to be closed after you pass a certain point.
I can't say if that law's still on the books or not, but I haven't seen any warning signs about it near construction zone.
Down here they aren't quite as aggressive at Rickmastfan67 ran into near my Dad's house. Most of the time, they will try and force their way in but are quite as vehement about forcing it. If I know that the drivers were behind me and passed me, I won't let them in if I can help it. If I'm not sure, or some other circumstance made it hard/impossible to get over, I'll try to let them in. Even so, one car only gets in.
Also, my willingness to let someone in also depends on the distance from the lane closure, the farther from the closure, the more likely I am to let them in.
FIB??? :hmmm: As a former over the road trucker it used to infuriate me when a vehicle would pass me in the soon to be closed lane, I would mutter and yell "what you're too good to sit in line" :verymad: at the vehicles passing me in the soon to be closed lane. If I was right at the merge point and saw someone running up the closed lane I would not let them in, I was real good at following the vehicle ahead super close and blocking the other vehicle :evilgrin: : :biggrin:. As usends correctly stated you can move more traffic in 2 lanes than 1, but then how far do you take that? Example---Traffic is lined up in the open lane for 2 miles but the soon to be closed lane is empty but still open, would you run in the soon to be closed lane to the merge or sit in the long line of traffic like everyone else? Me, if traffic was lined up that far I would probably sit in line and b*tch. But if there were 2 lane of equally backed up I would choose the shorter line (duh!, lol). Why people wont maintain two lanes then take turns at the merge (per PA) I dont know, its so simple, instead like stupid sheep they all follow each other in a lane that is stopped 2 miles before the shutdown!! And how about those truckers that will ride side by side holding back traffic and causing a even longer jam, man I'm glad I'm off the road!!
QuoteWhy people wont maintain two lanes then take turns at the merge (per PA) I dont know, its so simple, instead like stupid sheep they all follow each other in a lane that is stopped 2 miles before the shutdown!!
This. Is. Absolutely. Right. The corollary to people obnoxiously passing is people who come to a near stop 2 miles before the lane closure to attempt to get into the main lane. If you have to slow down that much to be let in, just keep going to the merge point.
If it's not really easy to get into the lane that's going to stay open, go to the merge point where cars are supposed to zipper together, with each side taking a turn.
The zipper method makes sense in heavy traffic because it's predictable- if everyone goes to the merge point to merge, it becomes expected that you zipper to let people in. If some asswagon throws his blinker on two miles before the merge point and then slows up to find somebody to let him in, he's effectively moving the merge point back, which is completely pointless (and leads to insane speed fluctuations- once he's in, it's possible the other car will keep going forward).
In light traffic, it doesn't really matter either way, but best not to obnoxiously pass.
The problem is that there are three schools of thought, and different states use different methods. So if you're from PA, and you go to NJ, you'll merge in right away and half the state will pass you in the other lane. If you're from NJ and you go to PA, you'll be the only one in your lane for a good mile before the construction zone. Here are the methods:
1) Merge left as soon as you see "Lane closed ahead" signs. Now, to me, this defeats the purpose of closing the lane at MP 100; if everyone merges left at MP 101, why not close the lane there? As long as traffic is moving, this way works. Once traffic is stopped, it makes no sense whatsoever.
2) Merge left at the last possible moment. This is what NJ/NY drivers do in our "hurry-up" mentality, but can be unsafe IF traffic is free-flowing. If traffic is queued, this is probably best.
3) Dynamic merge signs that monitor the queue and tell you where to merge. This sort of goes against both logical arguments. If traffic is free-flow, this would let you merge at the merge point, which is unsafe because you lose any room for maneuverability. If traffic is queued, this would tell you to get in line well before the merge point. It's not like you have to wait any longer because the capacity is the same either way, but it just FEELS longer and you have an open lane no one's using.
Quote from: allniter89 on August 04, 2010, 06:11:29 PM
And how about those truckers that will ride side by side holding back traffic and causing a even longer jam, man I'm glad I'm off the road!!
I ran into this for the first time in PA, two trucks doing about 10 MPH side by side for a mile prior to the lane closure. I quietly wove my way through the cars behind them until I got close to the CZ, then I flipped into the shoulder for a good 300 feet tops and squeezed in ahead of the trucks. And flipped them off. To me, that's the only way to deal with them. (Note to policemen reading this - without proof, I could be making this up.) My moral says that unless you're law enforcement, you don't get to decide how I drive, so move the fuck over and do your own thing and let me do mine.
CDOT in Colorado has started to denote when "Merge Points" officially are when approaching closed lanes. Problem is, truckers don't adhere to the official rules they'll start riding abreast blocking BOTH lanes well before the merge point if it looks like too many people are driving in both lanes to the merge point. Those are the people that need to be ticketed. :clap:
What CDOT Doesn't do is use their numerous VMSs to denote upcoming lane closures. They seem to have no problem advising people of a closed pass due to heavy snow 100 miles away or wildlife crossing in the next 20 miles, but to say that the right lane will be closing 8 miles ahead? That's asking for the entire Milky Way galaxy!!! :pan:
Quote from: AlpsROADS on August 04, 2010, 06:35:51 PM
Quote from: allniter89 on August 04, 2010, 06:11:29 PM
And how about those truckers that will ride side by side holding back traffic and causing a even longer jam, man I'm glad I'm off the road!!
I ran into this for the first time in PA, two trucks doing about 10 MPH side by side for a mile prior to the lane closure. I quietly wove my way through the cars behind them until I got close to the CZ, then I flipped into the shoulder for a good 300 feet tops and squeezed in ahead of the trucks. And flipped them off. To me, that's the only way to deal with them. (Note to policemen reading this - without proof, I could be making this up.) My moral says that unless you're law enforcement, you don't get to decide how I drive, so move the fuck over and do your own thing and let me do mine.
I remember some trucks did this on I-80 EB once for a CZ. However, I think the State Police asked them to because they had just closed the left lane over a bridge and traffic was at a complete standstill. I mean people were turning off their car and getting out is was that kind of stopped! If fact, they even had the State Police on the right shoulder driving in the wrong direction to get people's attention because of the stopped traffic right around the curve. And once we got to the bridge, traffic was going about 10 MPH. If fact, I think I have a picture of that. If I find it, I'll edit this post with it.
EDIT: Found the picture. It was 6 MPH. lol.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv645%2Frickmastfan67%2FInterstates%2FPA%2FI-80%2FIm001829s.jpg&hash=fa7f3d9f04a7240fd811279c7c157eb93377d595)
Quote from: corco on August 04, 2010, 02:44:14 PM
1) Merge left as soon as you see "Lane closed ahead" signs. Now, to me, this defeats the purpose of closing the lane at MP 100; if everyone merges left at MP 101, why not close the lane there? As long as traffic is moving, this way works. Once traffic is stopped, it makes no sense whatsoever.
The reason for merging early is to prevent yourself from getting in a situation where you cannot merge later. If you cannot merge at the time that you see the signs, you still have a good mile to find a gap and switch lanes before you get stuck at the cones. And it's a lot easier to merge at speed than it is at a dead stop. (Which is why backups ensue...you have people coming over at 5 MPH so faster moving traffic behind has to slow way down to let them in.)
ODOT does their best to encourage this early-merging behavior, but a lot of people don't really give a damn about state law.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denexa.com%2Froadgeek%2Froad-photos%2Fmain.php%3Fcmd%3Dimage%26amp%3Bvar1%3Dok%252Foklahoma%252F035i_mergenow.jpg%26amp%3Bvar2%3D1000_85&hash=02095f5cc1e7152776d88a6c569e7b5ce9ebdd95)
Quote2) Merge left at the last possible moment. This is what NJ/NY drivers do in our "hurry-up" mentality, but can be unsafe IF traffic is free-flowing. If traffic is queued, this is probably best.
This often CAUSES queues.
Quote3) Dynamic merge signs that monitor the queue and tell you where to merge. This sort of goes against both logical arguments. If traffic is free-flow, this would let you merge at the merge point, which is unsafe because you lose any room for maneuverability. If traffic is queued, this would tell you to get in line well before the merge point. It's not like you have to wait any longer because the capacity is the same either way, but it just FEELS longer and you have an open lane no one's using.
Never seen this.
Quote from: allniter89 on August 04, 2010, 06:11:29 PM
FIB??? :hmmm:
Cheesehead shorthand for "fucking Illinois bastard".
Quote from: Brandon on August 05, 2010, 08:32:44 AM
Quote from: allniter89 on August 04, 2010, 06:11:29 PM
FIB??? :hmmm:
Cheesehead shorthand for "fucking Illinois bastard".
Just don't lump ALL Illinois drivers under that label.
Quote from: US71 on August 05, 2010, 08:41:03 AM
Quote from: Brandon on August 05, 2010, 08:32:44 AM
Quote from: allniter89 on August 04, 2010, 06:11:29 PM
FIB??? :hmmm:
Cheesehead shorthand for "fucking Illinois bastard".
Just don't lump ALL Illinois drivers under that label.
I don't, but the term is common in Wisconsin due to the natures of Chicago drivers mentioned above.
Quote from: US71 on August 05, 2010, 08:41:03 AM
Quote from: Brandon on August 05, 2010, 08:32:44 AM
Quote from: allniter89 on August 04, 2010, 06:11:29 PM
FIB??? :hmmm:
Cheesehead shorthand for "fucking Illinois bastard".
Just don't lump ALL Illinois drivers under that label.
ALL Illinois-ing drivers fall into this category whenever the Cubs or Bears are the visiting team.
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on August 04, 2010, 02:35:27 AMTHEN, they realize that the signs weren't lying about the CZ...... So, what do you think they do?
A) Backoff and get back inline behind the guy behind us.
B) Still attempt to pass the truck.
C) Shoot for the really small gap between us and the Truck.
C
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on August 04, 2010, 02:35:27 AMSo, have anybody else encountered complete idiots like that?
All the time, whether there is a construction zone or not. Then again I live in the county with the highest amount of traffic accidents and resultant deaths in the Commonwealth.
Quote from: signalman on August 04, 2010, 03:56:07 AM
Come over to New Jersey more often. You will get to see maneuvers like that whether it be in a construction zone or not. I generally anticipate the worst when driving and am rarely disappointed.
Kind of like Los Angeles. :banghead: :pan:
Quote from: hm insulators on August 11, 2010, 04:29:57 PM
Kind of like Los Angeles. :banghead: :pan:
LA has some pretty bad drivers, but it's damn near the Oregon Outback compared to the Hellhole that is Miami.
Miami drivers would neither merge in early nor merge in late. they'd plow through the cones, crash into the construction equipment, and shoot a worker or two for daring to get in their way.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 04:31:35 PM
Quote from: hm insulators on August 11, 2010, 04:29:57 PM
Kind of like Los Angeles. :banghead: :pan:
LA has some pretty bad drivers, but it's damn near the Oregon Outback compared to the Hellhole that is Miami.
Miami drivers would neither merge in early nor merge in late. they'd plow through the cones, crash into the construction equipment, and shoot a worker or two for daring to get in their way.
Wow! Wouldn't want to be there during a hurricane evacuation! :D
Quote from: hm insulators on August 11, 2010, 04:41:36 PM
Wow! Wouldn't want to be there during a hurricane evacuation! :D
nah, that's about the time that they can drive the wrong way down a one-way street with everyone finally no longer shooting at them!
Resurrecting this thread because a friend posted a question on Facebook about zipper merging and the pros and cons.
So -- are zipper merges good or bad?
Good if people actually do a zipper merge. More typically, people will use the ending lane as a passing lane and try to shove in at the last minute, try to tag along with the person in front of them, slow down while merging, etc.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 04, 2014, 11:56:54 AM
Resurrecting this thread because a friend posted a question on Facebook about zipper merging and the pros and cons.
So -- are zipper merges good or bad?
I think corco addressed the issue pretty well in Reply #6 by noting (not in these words) that when there's a lot of traffic moving slowly, you should go to the end and take turns, but if traffic is light and flowing freely you should just move over when it's clear in a way that does not require anyone to hit the brakes. I find it's people hitting the brakes that seems to cause a domino effect of other people hitting their brakes and soon you wind up with a traffic jam. But if you already have a traffic jam, it's illogical not to use all the available pavement. The lane is there to be used, even if it's ending. Also, once you start saying "merge early," the problem becomes that you have as many different "merge points" as you do drivers on the road because every driver will have a different opinion about the "proper" place to get over.
If the point of your query is to ask which method produces the smoothest merge with the least congestion, I think the practical answer has to be "neither because there will always be a traffic jam due to people hitting the brakes."
Around here I find the people who seem to be the most aggressive are the members of the "merge-early" crowd who then think they're entitled to say "none shall merge past this point." They'll tailgate, swerve as if they're going to sideswipe people, slam on the brakes hard, etc.
All the above applies even with onramp acceleration lanes–I've seen people who are DETERMINED to get over right at the start of the acceleration lane and who will then try to tailgate so as to block out anyone who uses the entire acceleration lane. (In fairness, part of this is due to assholes who think the acceleration lane is their private passing lane: Someone already on the highway in the right lane will cut across into the acceleration lane, race down the end, and try to cut back in. Happens constantly during the morning rush hour on I-395 near the Pentagon, for example. People don't know who's legitimately getting on the highway and who's trying to cheat.)
In slow traffic if I'm in the "non-ending" lane I happily allow ONE car to merge in front of me once we reach the end of the closing lane, taking turns, and I will then pull close and tailgate that car until we're past the point where you can get over.
I've been known to tailgate/ride the line in the event that there's a de facto zipper merge prior to the end of the acceleration lane and some yahoo doesn't use that and instead tries to pass the queue. Some I've manged to get in behind me (allowing myself and everyone in front to finally start accelerating, since we can't until all the merge points are behind us), but a few will actually use the shoulder as a passing lane. I guess they didn't get the message (or they're just that big of a jerk). I don't have an issue with using all of the pavement, but I do have an issue with people creating additional merge points and the resultant delays for everyone else just so they can get in front of a few stopped vehicles that won't be going full speed anyways until they leave the county.
Quote from: vdeane on September 04, 2014, 12:42:30 PM
Good if people actually do a zipper merge. More typically, people will use the ending lane as a passing lane and try to shove in at the last minute, try to tag along with the person in front of them, slow down while merging, etc.
That's what a zipper merge is. It's going to the end, and merging in between two other vehicles. If everyone else decided to merge into the open lane early, that's not a zipper merge - that's simply not utilizing an open lane of a highway.
Quote from: vdeane on September 04, 2014, 01:04:58 PM
I've been known to tailgate/ride the line in the event that there's a de facto zipper merge prior to the end of the acceleration lane and some yahoo doesn't use that and instead tries to pass the queue...I don't have an issue with using all of the pavement, but I do have an issue with people creating additional merge points and the resultant delays for everyone else...
Actually, you do have a very big issue with using all of the pavement. And riding the line/failure to stay in a lane is a reason many people get pulled over for suspicion of Drinking and Driving. Using the travel lane that will close is perfectly legal until the point of closure. Tailgating and failure to maintain a lane are both illegal, and a primary cause of accidents.
Quote from: vdeane on September 04, 2014, 01:04:58 PM
I've been known to tailgate/ride the line in the event that there's a de facto zipper merge prior to the end of the acceleration lane and some yahoo doesn't use that and instead tries to pass the queue. Some I've manged to get in behind me (allowing myself and everyone in front to finally start accelerating, since we can't until all the merge points are behind us), but a few will actually use the shoulder as a passing lane. I guess they didn't get the message (or they're just that big of a jerk). I don't have an issue with using all of the pavement, but I do have an issue with people creating additional merge points and the resultant delays for everyone else just so they can get in front of a few stopped vehicles that won't be going full speed anyways until they leave the county.
With all due respect, if you're not merging at the end, who decides where "THE merge point" is to be such that people who don't merge there are "creating additional merge points"? That's one of the issues I was getting at in my comment posted prior to yours.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 04, 2014, 01:11:08 PM
Actually, you do have a very big issue with using all of the pavement. And riding the line/failure to stay in a lane is a reason many people get pulled over for suspicion of Drinking and Driving. Using the travel lane that will close is perfectly legal until the point of closure. Tailgating and failure to maintain a lane are both illegal, and a primary cause of accidents.
The particular case I cited is not a travel lane, but rather an acceleration lane for a ramp with very high traffic counts. It's really bad in the summer travel season. When I'm talking about people shoving in, I'm not talking about a zipper merge... I'm talking about people accelerating past the slower moving/stopped traffic in the travel lane, then slamming on their brakes to shove themselves in a gap that only opened because someone else slammed on their brakes to let them in, causing the traffic jam to get worse.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 04, 2014, 01:20:25 PM
With all due respect, if you're not merging at the end, who decides where "THE merge point" is to be such that people who don't merge there are "creating additional merge points"? That's one of the issues I was getting at in my comment posted prior to yours.
The general consensus seems to be to merge right where the ramp hits the travel lane, at least once traffic gets so bad that both mainline and ramp traffic are stop and go. Once you're past the merge, traffic can accelerate back up to speed (usually hitting 40-50 before the next big merge), but if some people decide to merge later, you're stuck sitting for them. It's infuriating. Cutting the line isn't tolerated in store checkout lines, so why is it tolerated here?
Quote from: vdeane on September 04, 2014, 01:40:59 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 04, 2014, 01:20:25 PM
With all due respect, if you're not merging at the end, who decides where "THE merge point" is to be such that people who don't merge there are "creating additional merge points"? That's one of the issues I was getting at in my comment posted prior to yours.
The general consensus seems to be to merge right where the ramp hits the travel lane, at least once traffic gets so bad that both mainline and ramp traffic are stop and go. Once you're past the merge, traffic can accelerate back up to speed (usually hitting 40-50 before the next big merge), but if some people decide to merge later, you're stuck sitting for them. It's infuriating. Cutting the line isn't tolerated in store checkout lines, so why is it tolerated here?
How about when a lane is ending, whether due to construction or just a lane drop or whatever? Say you see signs telling you the left lane is closed ahead and to merge right.* As I said before, if you're not merging at the end, who decides where "THE merge point" is to be such that people who don't merge there are "creating additional merge points"?
I think your argument about ramps fails for the same reason I noted earlier, though: What's the point of having the acceleration lane at all if people aren't supposed to use it? It's there to be used.
This is different from supermarket checkout lines because there you don't have multiple lines consolidating into a single one. You have a separate line for each checkout and they remain separate all the way through (I have never seen a grocery store that uses the "one line feeds to all checkouts" model used at Best Buy and some similar stores, though I've read there's a Whole Foods in New York City that uses that system).
*A true "zipper merge" would probably involve configuring the road so both lanes end, sort of like that spot on the southbound Jersey Turnpike just past Exit 8A where the two carriageways merged and eventually the two center lanes merged into a single lane. That way nobody in either lane can claim to be in "THE open lane." But of course that's not necessarily practical in many construction situations.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 04, 2014, 02:32:17 PM
How about when a lane is ending, whether due to construction or just a lane drop or whatever? Say you see signs telling you the left lane is closed ahead and to merge right.* As I said before, if you're not merging at the end, who decides where "THE merge point" is to be such that people who don't merge there are "creating additional merge points"?
For whatever reason, left to their own device, it seems a lot of drivers will see a warning about a lane ending, and even though it will say "1 Mile Ahead" or whatever, they feel they have to get over right away - and apparently think that everyone else should too, and those that don't are "cutting" in line.
I probably noted this before, but PennDOT is pretty good about putting up signs that say "USE BOTH LANES UNTIL MERGE POINT" and then a sign explicitly saying "MERGE HERE. TAKE YOUR TURN" at the merge point.
I try to merge as late as I can, but I'm not going to go to the end of the pavement no matter what just because some people say you should. If I can tell that it's only going to get more difficult to merge later I'll move over. I'm not going to rely on someone letting me in; not only is it not guaranteed, but it's not nice to the person you're asking to slow down just so you could be a few cars further in line. I don't care where other people merge as long as it doesn't affect traffic. When you jump a queue, regardless of the circumstances, it's not fair to the people who had to slam on their brakes to let you in. Traffic would be a lot smoother if drivers were actually courteous, but unfortunately the vast majority of drivers are jerks. I try to be nice, but I WILL get extremely pissed off at someone who negatively affects travel speeds on my commute (especially on the Northway). IMO the vast majority of drivers should have their license permanently revoked. I'm tired of people who deliberately drive in a way to maximize congestion. Though it's worth noting that the worst drivers aren't commuters, but ****ing tourists (IMO non-commuters should be BANNED from all forms of travel during rush hour).
As for the junction I mentioned, the acceleration lane does get used... when traffic isn't at a standstill. Note that traffic WILL be at a standstill during the evening rush hour near the weekend and every day in the summer.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 04, 2014, 11:56:54 AM
Resurrecting this thread because a friend posted a question on Facebook about zipper merging and the pros and cons...
I'd be interested to know what the supposed cons of zipper merging are.
Quote from: vdeane on September 04, 2014, 06:28:11 PM
I don't care where other people merge as long as it doesn't affect traffic.
But before that you said...
QuoteThe general consensus seems to be to merge right where the ramp hits the travel lane, at least once traffic gets so bad that both mainline and ramp traffic are stop and go.
So traffic is still getting affected.
Personally, merging in at the very first possible moment is the *worst* place to merge. Often times, that's the place with the least amount of visibility, as the ramp is completing it's curved movement. The car on the ramp is moving at their slowest speed already, rather than gaining speed using the accel lane. And once a car does try to force their way in early on, that now has slowed down the ramp and the mainline.
If the cars continued down the acceleration lane, they would be able to speed up or slow and match the traffic's speed of the highway, find a gap, and merge in. Traffic on the mainline may have to slow down ever so slightly to widen the gap, but that's it.
So, especially on an acceleration lane, it's much more beneficial to go as far down the lane as possible and merge in. It's actually those merging in early that are causing the problem.
Quote from: thenetwork on August 04, 2010, 08:27:03 PM
They seem to have no problem advising people of a closed pass due to heavy snow 100 miles away or wildlife crossing in the next 20 miles, but to say that the right lane will be closing 8 miles ahead? That's asking for the entire Milky Way galaxy!!! :pan:
Because 90% of the goofs would instantly jump to the right and cause an 8 mile queue. The straddling lane truckers irk me, the irony is they're mad at someone for skipping them, so they penalize the hundreds of people behind them by taking up both lanes. Do they not realize they're the one making the shockwave longer?
There was article in the Times a few years ago about this. Whatever form of survey they did, probably not particularly formal, showed natives to the New York area were much likelier to merge late than transplants were. The natives' attitude seemed to come down to "why should we waste the space given to us?" while people who had moved there from elsewhere were likely to find this rude and disobedient.
FWIW, I am from that area originally, and also firmly in the use-the-whole-lane camp. I think we might just be more used to regular severe traffic jams.
There is at least one situation I'm in here periodically where I use a left lane that flows much better than the rest, then cut back into the rest of the traffic because I need to get off. I'm far from the only one that does it, and I don't feel guilty about using the lane capacity provided, but what I wish more folks realized is that you need to adjust to the speed of the traffic you're merging into (as opposed to stopping or slowing to a near stop) in order to find and exploit a gap.
I'm pretty astounded by the level of emotion displayed on this issue. It's like just talking about it brings back the frustrated feelings of being in a traffic jam.
Quote from: Hoss6884 on September 05, 2014, 07:45:08 AM
....
On a side note, I would love to have the PennDOT worker's job where they stand in the construction zone holding up the "SLOW" sign as traffic pokes along at < 5 MPH.
Heh. Maybe the worker should make a handheld addendum to the sign that says "Not Quite THAT Slow!"
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 04, 2014, 07:58:42 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 04, 2014, 06:28:11 PM
I don't care where other people merge as long as it doesn't affect traffic.
But before that you said...
QuoteThe general consensus seems to be to merge right where the ramp hits the travel lane, at least once traffic gets so bad that both mainline and ramp traffic are stop and go.
So traffic is still getting affected.
Personally, merging in at the very first possible moment is the *worst* place to merge. Often times, that's the place with the least amount of visibility, as the ramp is completing it's curved movement. The car on the ramp is moving at their slowest speed already, rather than gaining speed using the accel lane. And once a car does try to force their way in early on, that now has slowed down the ramp and the mainline.
If the cars continued down the acceleration lane, they would be able to speed up or slow and match the traffic's speed of the highway, find a gap, and merge in. Traffic on the mainline may have to slow down ever so slightly to widen the gap, but that's it.
So, especially on an acceleration lane, it's much more beneficial to go as far down the lane as possible and merge in. It's actually those merging in early that are causing the problem.
They do use the full acceleration lane, when it's not backed up. What causes the daily jam is usually when some late merger tries to play chicken with a truck instead of coming in behind the truck. They need to understand that "late merging" means "move over at the last point you think you can do so without cutting someone off", not "use every millimeter of pavement and then cut someone off because there was no gap there just because you can". If traffic is already backed up for a merge, then it makes sense to move in when everyone else is so that traffic can start moving again, rather than forcing everyone to slow down again for the one late merger (I absolutely
despise any situation where multiple people have to slow down or be held up for one and try to avoid doing so whenever I'm a driver or a pedestrian).
IMO people should try to get to highway speed even before the acceleration lane, though it's obviously not possible on all ramp configurations (it is on the one I have to deal with though). I aim to merge in at the first point where there's a gap and I'm traveling at the speed of traffic. Trouble is, if traffic is moving slow, even merging traffic tries to use it as a passing lane (which is the probable reason that someone always ends up playing chicken with a truck).
And yes, talking about merging does bring up traffic jam memories. Before my current job, both jobs I've had were in areas that didn't have enough traffic for there to be a rush hour, and there area I grew up in doesn't really get jams outside of rush hour (and even then, traffic is almost always going at least 35, with very little/none of the stop and go that I see here in heavy tourist traffic). I'm definitely NOT used to the idea of traffic jams being a regular thing. I will say though, it has improved my driving immensely. Even as recently as four months ago, the idea of me driving in heavy traffic was unthinkable.
Quote from: vdeane on September 04, 2014, 06:28:11 PM(IMO non-commuters should be BANNED from all forms of travel during rush hour)
This little gem, by the way, shows a mysteriously high regard for the average regular commuter. Devil you know, I guess, but ride into Boston on 93 for a month and tell me which of the texters, eaters, makeup-appliers, meeting-holders, etc. are part of the solution and not the problem. Stupid doesn't necessarily discriminate against people with a lot of practice at something.
it would probably diminish traffic if commuters were banned from all forms of travel during rush hour ...
Quote from: Pete from Boston on September 05, 2014, 02:25:56 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 04, 2014, 06:28:11 PM(IMO non-commuters should be BANNED from all forms of travel during rush hour)
This little gem, by the way, shows a mysteriously high regard for the average regular commuter. Devil you know, I guess, but ride into Boston on 93 for a month and tell me which of the texters, eaters, makeup-appliers, meeting-holders, etc. are part of the solution and not the problem. Stupid doesn't necessarily discriminate against people with a lot of practice at something.
Most of the regular Northway commuters are fine. It's when all the tourists clog the road heading up to Saratoga and Lake George that things get really bad, especially since they're the ones that do things like slam on their brakes due to merge issues that don't even affect their lane. It probably isn't as much of an issue in places that aren't near a Transportation Nexus of Tourist Travel (Thruway exit 24, the most heavily used exit on the ticket system). Traffic approaches Albany from New York, Boston, and Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse and ALL of it heads north on I-87.
This type of behavior is exemplified on DE 1 south at Exit 164B for DE 7. The new outer lanes have a split where the left lane continues on as DE 1 and the right lane exits off for DE 7. However, during the PM rush, DE 1 jams from the interchange complex clear past DE 273, thus jamming the left lane of the outer carriageway. People have a tendency to zoom down to the split THEN try to force their way in instead of finding spaces farther back. (the out-of-staters usually ignore the split and continue riding down the extra wide shoulder to where the on-ramp from DE 7 merges in, creating a dangerous situation for those not expecting some idiot coming from the shoulder to take over their lane.)
Driving the Garden State Parkway every day through the 80-100 widening project, I find that the GSP/contractor likes to teach late mergers a lesson by setting up ridiculously short cone tapers when they temporarily close a lane. You do get the usual advance warnings, but if you try to ride the lane to the very end, you are not getting that nice gradual taper to force your way in. I've almost plowed cones on more than a few occasions.
Quote from: vdeane on September 05, 2014, 07:12:03 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on September 05, 2014, 02:25:56 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 04, 2014, 06:28:11 PM(IMO non-commuters should be BANNED from all forms of travel during rush hour)
This little gem, by the way, shows a mysteriously high regard for the average regular commuter. Devil you know, I guess, but ride into Boston on 93 for a month and tell me which of the texters, eaters, makeup-appliers, meeting-holders, etc. are part of the solution and not the problem. Stupid doesn't necessarily discriminate against people with a lot of practice at something.
Most of the regular Northway commuters are fine. It's when all the tourists clog the road heading up to Saratoga and Lake George that things get really bad, especially since they're the ones that do things like slam on their brakes due to merge issues that don't even affect their lane. It probably isn't as much of an issue in places that aren't near a Transportation Nexus of Tourist Travel (Thruway exit 24, the most heavily used exit on the ticket system). Traffic approaches Albany from New York, Boston, and Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse and ALL of it heads north on I-87.
Not only are we a tourist mecca and tourist crossroads, we're one that swells with a new crop of green students every year. I just tonight sat and waited a stone's throw from Tufts for a young woman on the phone in a shiny new NY-plate car to finish letting folks into a rotary, a sure sign fall is here.
Quote from: Mr_Northside on September 04, 2014, 04:14:28 PM
I probably noted this before, but PennDOT is pretty good about putting up signs that say "USE BOTH LANES UNTIL MERGE POINT" and then a sign explicitly saying "MERGE HERE. TAKE YOUR TURN" at the merge point.
I seem to recall reading an abstract about a study done that examined the zipper merge vs. "traditional" merge. The study may have been performed in Pennsylvania, as your description of the signs jogged my memory of the study. If I remember correctly, the study found that zipper merging where drivers had a defined merge point seemed to result in less delay, regardless of whether one lane merged into the other or if both lanes merged to one.
Quote from: roadfro on September 08, 2014, 01:41:27 AM
Quote from: Mr_Northside on September 04, 2014, 04:14:28 PM
I probably noted this before, but PennDOT is pretty good about putting up signs that say "USE BOTH LANES UNTIL MERGE POINT" and then a sign explicitly saying "MERGE HERE. TAKE YOUR TURN" at the merge point.
I seem to recall reading an abstract about a study done that examined the zipper merge vs. "traditional" merge. The study may have been performed in Pennsylvania, as your description of the signs jogged my memory of the study. If I remember correctly, the study found that zipper merging where drivers had a defined merge point seemed to result in less delay, regardless of whether one lane merged into the other or if both lanes merged to one.
Isn't a zipper merge where the two lanes go together? I think that's the point, both lanes must take turns, as opposed to the traffic in the closed lane having to yield to traffic in the open lane. So both lanes share the delay equally.
Quote from: mrsman on September 09, 2014, 08:53:30 AM
Isn't a zipper merge where the two lanes go together? I think that's the point, both lanes must take turns, as opposed to the traffic in the closed lane having to yield to traffic in the open lane. So both lanes share the delay equally.
I could be wrong, but I've always interpreted it as the process by which individual cars merge, alternating one at a time, and not so much the physical characteristics of the merging and lane closures.
From KUOW, Seattle's public radio station. They interviewed (http://kuow.org/post/how-merge-traffic-seattle-youre-not-going) WSDOT's Travis Phelps about lane closures on I-90 south of Bellevue in July (everyone was going nuckin' futs):
Quote from: KUOW; "How To Merge In Traffic (Seattle, You're Not Going To Like This)
Seattle area traffic jams are nothing new, but this week has been particularly trying with the construction on westbound I-90 closing all but one lane in Bellevue.
It might seem selfish, but the best way to ease congestion, according to Washington State Department of Transportation's Travis Phelps, is to drive right up to the closure before merging over.
"There can be the weird idea that goes through people's head that, 'Those people are cheating, they're cutting in line.' Well, it actually helps traffic flow if you can let folks in. Play nice with the other person, let them in. Treat traffic like a team sport," Phelps said, speaking with KUOW's Bill Radke.
Phelps said that that merging in the middle can create a small choke point. The trick is to put on your blinker, don't make any sudden movements and don't try to force your way in.
Also, make sure to give a courtesy wave to your fellow drivers.
"This is something we're all in together," he said. "So if we can play nice for four days, that's great."
Merging at the end can create a small choke point as well, and if you have people doing both, you now have two choke points instead of one and people jumping queues. The best way to ease congestion is to do one of the other bolded parts: don't try to force your way in. Also, learn to get to freeway speed before merging in. Most/all of the problems on my commute are caused by people who don't know how to use acceleration and deceleration lanes.
Quote from: vdeane on September 11, 2014, 12:44:05 PM
Merging at the end can create a small choke point as well, and if you have people doing both, you now have two choke points instead of one and people jumping queues. The best way to ease congestion is to do one of the other bolded parts: don't try to force your way in. Also, learn to get to freeway speed before merging in. Most/all of the problems on my commute are caused by people who don't know how to use acceleration and deceleration lanes.
The traffic being discussed is rarely at freeway speed, but yes, this is very important, although it's a frequent problem that getting up to speed means quickly blowing through the short stretch available to cut over (touching back on the "for god's sake, let people in!" message).
Has there ever been a study tried if, for example on a highway with two thru lanes, they close a half-lane in each lane and temporarily have drivers ride the middle of the carriageway before the cones direct the traffic into the lone open lane through the zone. It would force a more zipper-like merge at the choke point and no lane has a true advantage at the start of the zone.
I ask that because I have seen construction zones that will close off the high speed lane, all traffic merges to the right, and then once the merges have completed, the cones direct traffic to the left lane as the reight lane is the lane that is ultimately closed. I guess it is a form of "traffic calming".
At most such choke points I see, there's no high-speed anything (if there is traffic moving at high speed, there's no "choke"per se).
Welcome to Illinois :-D :-D :-D :-D
I'm getting the impression vdeane is focusing on on-ramps, while the rest of us are focusing on situations where a thru lane ends or is closed.
There's research on this, A book called "Traffic" I forget by whom, but it says don't merge until you have to and do the zipper technique. It's been proven that way reduces backup by like 40% or something.
But most people don't realize it and think you are rude.
I was once stuck in a situation where no one would let me over so I kept edging up, hoping that someone eventually would but no one did. I looked in my rear view, saw police lights on and heard a cop say, "GET OVER!" in a unnecessarily angry voice. It was pretty easy for myself and the cars behind me to get over after that.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 13, 2014, 12:01:26 PM
I was once stuck in a situation where no one would let me over so I kept edging up, hoping that someone eventually would but no one did. I looked in my rear view, saw police lights on and heard a cop say, "GET OVER!" in a unnecessarily angry voice. It was pretty easy for myself and the cars behind me to get over after that.
For this I miss the old days when I had a beat up old Chevy Citation and later a Ford Pinto wagon. When I had to get over I would just force my way in. Nobody would challenge me with their shiny new cars.
Quote from: doofy103 on September 13, 2014, 11:57:38 AM
There's research on this, A book called "Traffic" I forget by whom, but it says don't merge until you have to and do the zipper technique. It's been proven that way reduces backup by like 40% or something.
But most people don't realize it and think you are rude.
Over the years, there has been a bit of interesting writing about traffic from a fluid-dynamics perspective. This page (http://www.smartmotorist.com/traffic-and-safety-guideline/traffic-jams.html) has a good animation of how to conduct a smooth merge. Its ideas depend on a more thoughtful driving public than currently exists.
I wonder how prohibitively expensive it would be to expand driver's ed to expand beyond simple safety and include things like how to make traffic work better. My suspicion is it wouldn't make any difference because too many of us are convinced we know better, but I can dream...
Quote from: Pete from Boston on September 13, 2014, 12:27:44 PM
Over the years, there has been a bit of interesting writing about traffic from a fluid-dynamics perspective.
Actually, most basic traffic flow theory is based in principles of fluid dynamics: saturation flow rate used in capacity calculations, etc.
(I didn't discover this until taking some graduate-level civil/traffic engineering courses. Had I known this earlier, I would have tried much harder in my undergrad fluid dynamics class.)
Quote from: doofy103 on September 13, 2014, 11:57:38 AM
There's research on this, A book called "Traffic" I forget by whom, but it says don't merge until you have to and do the zipper technique. It's been proven that way reduces backup by like 40% or something.
But most people don't realize it and think you are rude.
Unfortunately most people don't know how to properly do a zipper merge. They either force themselves in as if they have the ROW, tailgate on the person in front of them so they can get in right behind (instead of letting someone else merge), let in a whole stream of cars to be "nice", or move over as soon as they know the lane will eventually end. So yes, there are circumstances where being a late merger CAN be rude.
Plus if one lane is moving significantly faster than the other (which won't happen in a zipper merge but will in real-world traffic conditions), it IS rude to "jump the line".
And yes, most of my comments were pertaining to on-ramps, though I did have a couple situations where closed lanes worked as I describes (a horrendous backup on the Tappan Zee and one time when the left two lanes were closed on I-81 in Syracuse). Traffic would be so much smoother if cars would just stop jockeying for position, tailgating, racing at full speed and then slamming on the brakes when they have to stop, etc. and go with the flow.
Steve Porcaro said it best (through the mouth of Michael Jackson):
If they say why, why? Tell 'em it's just human nature.
Which is why I merge early. If I could trust the other drivers to perform a zipper merge I would participate, but I'd rather get over early than get stuck at the merge point waiting for someone to not be an ass and let me in.
If someone is acting like an ass and won't let me know, I don't know if I've ever had a situation where the next person won't let me in. It's not like I'm stuck there for hours.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 14, 2014, 08:21:09 PM
Which is why I merge early. If I could trust the other drivers to perform a zipper merge I would participate, but I'd rather get over early than get stuck at the merge point waiting for someone to not be an ass and let me in.
You are doing something wrong lol! I have seen in normal jams without construction where 18 wheelers force their way across three stopped lanes of cars to get from a right merger lane to a left turn lane directly across from one another.
Now many of us would never attempt this for fear of rejection from motorists in between, but it is done daily on John Young Parkway in Orlando as truckers get off at Exit 3A to JYP SB to make the first left immediately after the ramp merges onto JYP.
You would figure that a truck would not make it anyway because of its length in the shortness of time, but they do! If motorists were aggressive it would not happen at all and these truckers would not be doing it.
So basically road bullies always win no matter what!
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 15, 2014, 08:57:09 AM
If someone is acting like an ass and won't let me know, I don't know if I've ever had a situation where the next person won't let me in. It's not like I'm stuck there for hours.
Even if you are the person who is stuck in the merge lane as it ends,
someone will eventually let you in. I've seen it plenty of times. I just can't stand when people speed by you to try and get ahead of all the other traffic only to get fucked by the lane drop and then have to weasel their way into traffic. Happens so much on a certain stretch of US 1.
I've noticed if you're on a road type I-95 and there is a mile long aux lane, people will weave and merge at the very beginning of the aux lane, creating a slow down or even a traffic jam and then the rest of the aux lane...3/4 lane is wide open. Why don't people use up the whole mile long lane is beyond me.
Quote from: doofy103 on November 06, 2014, 07:05:07 PM
I've noticed if you're on a road type I-95 and there is a mile long aux lane, people will weave and merge at the very beginning of the aux lane, creating a slow down or even a traffic jam and then the rest of the aux lane...3/4 lane is wide open. Why don't people use up the whole mile long lane is beyond me.
I think it's because they're afraid of the shame that comes along with butting in at the last second...it's a bit of a paradox, because drivers like to shame other drivers who wait till the last second, despite it being the most efficient thing (if anything, we should be shaming those merging in well before, because of that choke point).
In my experience, at the merge point, especially if traffic is flowing quickly, there's very little choke. People will tend to (in my area, at least) floor it to keep the other driver from merging in, but what happens is that the other driver will also speed up to get in front, to the point where both cars are merging together at 10-15 mph over the speed limit because both want the front. As a result, not only was there no choke, but traffic is now flowing quicker (because the mergers are driving so damn fast).
This happens a lot at this merge point (http://goo.gl/2Tkt02) near where I grew up outside Tacoma. The speed limit is 40 but people race a lot to the point where the typical merge speed is around 50.
I saw this study from the feds and thought it would be interesting to share
http://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/wz/workshops/accessible/McCoy.htm