Construction Zone Idiots (when coming up to the zones)

[PAHighways]

THEN, they realize that the signs weren't lying about the CZ......  So, what do you think they do?

A) Backoff and get back inline behind the guy behind us.
B) Still attempt to pass the truck.
C) Shoot for the really small gap between us and the Truck.

C

So, have anybody else encountered complete idiots like that?

All the time, whether there is a construction zone or not.  Then again I live in the county with the highest amount of traffic accidents and resultant deaths in the Commonwealth.

[hm insulators]

Come over to New Jersey more often.  You will get to see maneuvers like that whether it be in a construction zone or not.  I generally anticipate the worst when driving and am rarely disappointed.

Kind of like Los Angeles.

[agentsteel53]

Kind of like Los Angeles.

LA has some pretty bad drivers, but it's damn near the Oregon Outback compared to the Hellhole that is Miami.

Miami drivers would neither merge in early nor merge in late.  they'd plow through the cones, crash into the construction equipment, and shoot a worker or two for daring to get in their way.

[hm insulators]

Kind of like Los Angeles.

LA has some pretty bad drivers, but it's damn near the Oregon Outback compared to the Hellhole that is Miami.

Miami drivers would neither merge in early nor merge in late.  they'd plow through the cones, crash into the construction equipment, and shoot a worker or two for daring to get in their way.

Wow! Wouldn't want to be there during a hurricane evacuation!

[agentsteel53]

Wow! Wouldn't want to be there during a hurricane evacuation!

nah, that's about the time that they can drive the wrong way down a one-way street with everyone finally no longer shooting at them!

[hbelkins]

Resurrecting this thread because a friend posted a question on Facebook about zipper merging and the pros and cons.

So -- are zipper merges good or bad?

[vdeane]

Good if people actually do a zipper merge.  More typically, people will use the ending lane as a passing lane and try to shove in at the last minute, try to tag along with the person in front of them, slow down while merging, etc.

[1995hoo]

Resurrecting this thread because a friend posted a question on Facebook about zipper merging and the pros and cons.

So -- are zipper merges good or bad?

I think corco addressed the issue pretty well in Reply #6 by noting (not in these words) that when there's a lot of traffic moving slowly, you should go to the end and take turns, but if traffic is light and flowing freely you should just move over when it's clear in a way that does not require anyone to hit the brakes. I find it's people hitting the brakes that seems to cause a domino effect of other people hitting their brakes and soon you wind up with a traffic jam. But if you already have a traffic jam, it's illogical not to use all the available pavement. The lane is there to be used, even if it's ending. Also, once you start saying "merge early," the problem becomes that you have as many different "merge points" as you do drivers on the road because every driver will have a different opinion about the "proper" place to get over.

If the point of your query is to ask which method produces the smoothest merge with the least congestion, I think the practical answer has to be "neither because there will always be a traffic jam due to people hitting the brakes."

Around here I find the people who seem to be the most aggressive are the members of the "merge-early" crowd who then think they're entitled to say "none shall merge past this point." They'll tailgate, swerve as if they're going to sideswipe people, slam on the brakes hard, etc.

All the above applies even with onramp acceleration lanes–I've seen people who are DETERMINED to get over right at the start of the acceleration lane and who will then try to tailgate so as to block out anyone who uses the entire acceleration lane. (In fairness, part of this is due to assholes who think the acceleration lane is their private passing lane: Someone already on the highway in the right lane will cut across into the acceleration lane, race down the end, and try to cut back in. Happens constantly during the morning rush hour on I-395 near the Pentagon, for example. People don't know who's legitimately getting on the highway and who's trying to cheat.)

In slow traffic if I'm in the "non-ending" lane I happily allow ONE car to merge in front of me once we reach the end of the closing lane, taking turns, and I will then pull close and tailgate that car until we're past the point where you can get over.

[vdeane]

I've been known to tailgate/ride the line in the event that there's a de facto zipper merge prior to the end of the acceleration lane and some yahoo doesn't use that and instead tries to pass the queue.  Some I've manged to get in behind me (allowing myself and everyone in front to finally start accelerating, since we can't until all the merge points are behind us), but a few will actually use the shoulder as a passing lane.  I guess they didn't get the message (or they're just that big of a jerk).  I don't have an issue with using all of the pavement, but I do have an issue with people creating additional merge points and the resultant delays for everyone else just so they can get in front of a few stopped vehicles that won't be going full speed anyways until they leave the county.

[jeffandnicole]

Good if people actually do a zipper merge.  More typically, people will use the ending lane as a passing lane and try to shove in at the last minute, try to tag along with the person in front of them, slow down while merging, etc.

That's what a zipper merge is. It's going to the end, and merging in between two other vehicles.  If everyone else decided to merge into the open lane early, that's not a zipper merge - that's simply not utilizing an open lane of a highway.

I've been known to tailgate/ride the line in the event that there's a de facto zipper merge prior to the end of the acceleration lane and some yahoo doesn't use that and instead tries to pass the queue...I don't have an issue with using all of the pavement, but I do have an issue with people creating additional merge points and the resultant delays for everyone else...

Actually, you do have a very big issue with using all of the pavement.  And riding the line/failure to stay in a lane is a reason many people get pulled over for suspicion of Drinking and Driving.  Using the travel lane that will close is perfectly legal until the point of closure.  Tailgating and failure to maintain a lane are both illegal, and a primary cause of accidents.

[1995hoo]

I've been known to tailgate/ride the line in the event that there's a de facto zipper merge prior to the end of the acceleration lane and some yahoo doesn't use that and instead tries to pass the queue.  Some I've manged to get in behind me (allowing myself and everyone in front to finally start accelerating, since we can't until all the merge points are behind us), but a few will actually use the shoulder as a passing lane.  I guess they didn't get the message (or they're just that big of a jerk).  I don't have an issue with using all of the pavement, but I do have an issue with people creating additional merge points and the resultant delays for everyone else just so they can get in front of a few stopped vehicles that won't be going full speed anyways until they leave the county.

With all due respect, if you're not merging at the end, who decides where "THE merge point" is to be such that people who don't merge there are "creating additional merge points"? That's one of the issues I was getting at in my comment posted prior to yours.

[vdeane]

Actually, you do have a very big issue with using all of the pavement.  And riding the line/failure to stay in a lane is a reason many people get pulled over for suspicion of Drinking and Driving.  Using the travel lane that will close is perfectly legal until the point of closure.  Tailgating and failure to maintain a lane are both illegal, and a primary cause of accidents.

The particular case I cited is not a travel lane, but rather an acceleration lane for a ramp with very high traffic counts.  It's really bad in the summer travel season.  When I'm talking about people shoving in, I'm not talking about a zipper merge... I'm talking about people accelerating past the slower moving/stopped traffic in the travel lane, then slamming on their brakes to shove themselves in a gap that only opened because someone else slammed on their brakes to let them in, causing the traffic jam to get worse.

With all due respect, if you're not merging at the end, who decides where "THE merge point" is to be such that people who don't merge there are "creating additional merge points"? That's one of the issues I was getting at in my comment posted prior to yours.

The general consensus seems to be to merge right where the ramp hits the travel lane, at least once traffic gets so bad that both mainline and ramp traffic are stop and go.  Once you're past the merge, traffic can accelerate back up to speed (usually hitting 40-50 before the next big merge), but if some people decide to merge later, you're stuck sitting for them.  It's infuriating.  Cutting the line isn't tolerated in store checkout lines, so why is it tolerated here?

[1995hoo]

With all due respect, if you're not merging at the end, who decides where "THE merge point" is to be such that people who don't merge there are "creating additional merge points"? That's one of the issues I was getting at in my comment posted prior to yours.

The general consensus seems to be to merge right where the ramp hits the travel lane, at least once traffic gets so bad that both mainline and ramp traffic are stop and go.  Once you're past the merge, traffic can accelerate back up to speed (usually hitting 40-50 before the next big merge), but if some people decide to merge later, you're stuck sitting for them.  It's infuriating.  Cutting the line isn't tolerated in store checkout lines, so why is it tolerated here?

How about when a lane is ending, whether due to construction or just a lane drop or whatever? Say you see signs telling you the left lane is closed ahead and to merge right.* As I said before,  if you're not merging at the end, who decides where "THE merge point" is to be such that people who don't merge there are "creating additional merge points"?

I think your argument about ramps fails for the same reason I noted earlier, though: What's the point of having the acceleration lane at all if people aren't supposed to use it? It's there to be used.

This is different from supermarket checkout lines because there you don't have multiple lines consolidating into a single one. You have a separate line for each checkout and they remain separate all the way through (I have never seen a grocery store that uses the "one line feeds to all checkouts" model used at Best Buy and some similar stores, though I've read there's a Whole Foods in New York City that uses that system).

*A true "zipper merge" would probably involve configuring the road so both lanes end, sort of like that spot on the southbound Jersey Turnpike just past Exit 8A where the two carriageways merged and eventually the two center lanes merged into a single lane. That way nobody in either lane can claim to be in "THE open lane." But of course that's not necessarily practical in many construction situations.

[Mr_Northside]

How about when a lane is ending, whether due to construction or just a lane drop or whatever? Say you see signs telling you the left lane is closed ahead and to merge right.* As I said before,  if you're not merging at the end, who decides where "THE merge point" is to be such that people who don't merge there are "creating additional merge points"?

For whatever reason, left to their own device, it seems a lot of drivers will see a warning about a lane ending, and even though it will say "1 Mile Ahead" or whatever, they feel they have to get over right away - and apparently think that everyone else should too, and those that don't are "cutting" in line.
I probably noted this before, but PennDOT is pretty good about putting up signs that say "USE BOTH LANES UNTIL MERGE POINT" and then a sign explicitly saying "MERGE HERE. TAKE YOUR TURN" at the merge point. 

[vdeane]

I try to merge as late as I can, but I'm not going to go to the end of the pavement no matter what just because some people say you should.  If I can tell that it's only going to get more difficult to merge later I'll move over.  I'm not going to rely on someone letting me in; not only is it not guaranteed, but it's not nice to the person you're asking to slow down just so you could be a few cars further in line.  I don't care where other people merge as long as it doesn't affect traffic.  When you jump a queue, regardless of the circumstances, it's not fair to the people who had to slam on their brakes to let you in.  Traffic would be a lot smoother if drivers were actually courteous, but unfortunately the vast majority of drivers are jerks.  I try to be nice, but I WILL get extremely pissed off at someone who negatively affects travel speeds on my commute (especially on the Northway).  IMO the vast majority of drivers should have their license permanently revoked.  I'm tired of people who deliberately drive in a way to maximize congestion.  Though it's worth noting that the worst drivers aren't commuters, but ****ing tourists (IMO non-commuters should be BANNED from all forms of travel during rush hour).

As for the junction I mentioned, the acceleration lane does get used... when traffic isn't at a standstill.  Note that traffic WILL be at a standstill during the evening rush hour near the weekend and every day in the summer.

[briantroutman]

Resurrecting this thread because a friend posted a question on Facebook about zipper merging and the pros and cons...

I'd be interested to know what the supposed cons of zipper merging are.

[jeffandnicole]

I don't care where other people merge as long as it doesn't affect traffic.

But before that you said...

The general consensus seems to be to merge right where the ramp hits the travel lane, at least once traffic gets so bad that both mainline and ramp traffic are stop and go.

So traffic is still getting affected.

Personally, merging in at the very first possible moment is the *worst* place to merge.  Often times, that's the place with the least amount of visibility, as the ramp is completing it's curved movement.  The car on the ramp is moving at their slowest speed already, rather than gaining speed using the accel lane.  And once a car does try to force their way in early on, that now has slowed down the ramp and the mainline. 

If the cars continued down the acceleration lane, they would be able to speed up or slow and match the traffic's speed of the highway, find a gap, and merge in.  Traffic on the mainline may have to slow down ever so slightly to widen the gap, but that's it. 

So, especially on an acceleration lane, it's much more beneficial to go as far down the lane as possible and merge in.  It's actually those merging in early that are causing the problem.

[johndoe]

They seem to have no problem advising people of a closed pass due to heavy snow 100 miles away or wildlife crossing in the next 20 miles, but to say that the right lane will be closing 8 miles ahead?  That's asking for the entire Milky Way galaxy!!!

Because 90% of the goofs would instantly jump to the right and cause an 8 mile queue.  The straddling lane truckers irk me, the irony is they're mad at someone for skipping them, so they penalize the hundreds of people behind them by taking up both lanes.  Do they not realize they're the one making the shockwave longer?

[Pete from Boston]

There was article in the Times a few years ago about this.  Whatever form of survey they did, probably not particularly formal, showed natives to the New York area were much likelier to merge late than transplants were. The natives' attitude seemed to come down to "why should we waste the space given to us?" while people who had moved there from elsewhere were likely to find this rude and disobedient.

FWIW, I am from that area originally, and also firmly in the use-the-whole-lane camp.  I think we might just be more used to regular severe traffic jams.

There is at least one situation I'm in here periodically where I use a left lane that flows much better than the rest, then cut back into the rest of the traffic because I need to get off.  I'm far from the only one that does it, and I don't feel guilty about using the lane capacity provided, but what I wish more folks realized is that you need to adjust to the speed of the traffic you're merging into (as opposed to stopping or slowing to a near stop) in order to find and exploit a gap.

I'm pretty astounded by the level of emotion displayed on this issue.  It's like just talking about it brings back the frustrated feelings of being in a traffic jam.

[1995hoo]

....

On a side note, I would love to have the PennDOT worker's job where they stand in the construction zone holding up the "SLOW" sign as traffic pokes along at < 5 MPH.

Heh. Maybe the worker should make a handheld addendum to the sign that says "Not Quite THAT Slow!"

[vdeane]

I don't care where other people merge as long as it doesn't affect traffic.

But before that you said...

The general consensus seems to be to merge right where the ramp hits the travel lane, at least once traffic gets so bad that both mainline and ramp traffic are stop and go.

So traffic is still getting affected.

Personally, merging in at the very first possible moment is the *worst* place to merge.  Often times, that's the place with the least amount of visibility, as the ramp is completing it's curved movement.  The car on the ramp is moving at their slowest speed already, rather than gaining speed using the accel lane.  And once a car does try to force their way in early on, that now has slowed down the ramp and the mainline. 

If the cars continued down the acceleration lane, they would be able to speed up or slow and match the traffic's speed of the highway, find a gap, and merge in.  Traffic on the mainline may have to slow down ever so slightly to widen the gap, but that's it. 

So, especially on an acceleration lane, it's much more beneficial to go as far down the lane as possible and merge in.  It's actually those merging in early that are causing the problem.

They do use the full acceleration lane, when it's not backed up.  What causes the daily jam is usually when some late merger tries to play chicken with a truck instead of coming in behind the truck.  They need to understand that "late merging" means "move over at the last point you think you can do so without cutting someone off", not "use every millimeter of pavement and then cut someone off because there was no gap there just because you can".  If traffic is already backed up for a merge, then it makes sense to move in when everyone else is so that traffic can start moving again, rather than forcing everyone to slow down again for the one late merger (I absolutely despise any situation where multiple people have to slow down or be held up for one and try to avoid doing so whenever I'm a driver or a pedestrian).

IMO people should try to get to highway speed even before the acceleration lane, though it's obviously not possible on all ramp configurations (it is on the one I have to deal with though).  I aim to merge in at the first point where there's a gap and I'm traveling at the speed of traffic.  Trouble is, if traffic is moving slow, even merging traffic tries to use it as a passing lane (which is the probable reason that someone always ends up playing chicken with a truck).

And yes, talking about merging does bring up traffic jam memories.  Before my current job, both jobs I've had were in areas that didn't have enough traffic for there to be a rush hour, and there area I grew up in doesn't really get jams outside of rush hour (and even then, traffic is almost always going at least 35, with very little/none of the stop and go that I see here in heavy tourist traffic).  I'm definitely NOT used to the idea of traffic jams being a regular thing.  I will say though, it has improved my driving immensely.  Even as recently as four months ago, the idea of me driving in heavy traffic was unthinkable.

[Pete from Boston]

(IMO non-commuters should be BANNED from all forms of travel during rush hour)

This little gem, by the way, shows a mysteriously high regard for the average regular commuter.  Devil you know, I guess, but ride into Boston on 93 for a month and tell me which of the texters, eaters, makeup-appliers, meeting-holders, etc. are part of the solution and not the problem.  Stupid doesn't necessarily discriminate against people with a lot of practice at something.

[agentsteel53]

it would probably diminish traffic if commuters were banned from all forms of travel during rush hour ...

[vdeane]

(IMO non-commuters should be BANNED from all forms of travel during rush hour)

This little gem, by the way, shows a mysteriously high regard for the average regular commuter.  Devil you know, I guess, but ride into Boston on 93 for a month and tell me which of the texters, eaters, makeup-appliers, meeting-holders, etc. are part of the solution and not the problem.  Stupid doesn't necessarily discriminate against people with a lot of practice at something.

Most of the regular Northway commuters are fine.  It's when all the tourists clog the road heading up to Saratoga and Lake George that things get really bad, especially since they're the ones that do things like slam on their brakes due to merge issues that don't even affect their lane.  It probably isn't as much of an issue in places that aren't near a Transportation Nexus of Tourist Travel (Thruway exit 24, the most heavily used exit on the ticket system).  Traffic approaches Albany from New York, Boston, and Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse and ALL of it heads north on I-87.

[Alex4897]

This type of behavior is exemplified on DE 1 south at Exit 164B for DE 7.  The new outer lanes have a split where the left lane continues on as DE 1 and the right lane exits off for DE 7.  However, during the PM rush, DE 1 jams from the interchange complex clear past DE 273, thus jamming the left lane of the outer carriageway.  People have a tendency to zoom down to the split THEN try to force their way in instead of finding spaces farther back.  (the out-of-staters usually ignore the split and continue riding down the extra wide shoulder to where the on-ramp from DE 7 merges in, creating a dangerous situation for those not expecting some idiot coming from the shoulder to take over their lane.)