Ah, Limon. Beautiful Limon, Colorado, the most important town on I-70. Of course, due to it's great importance as THE MOST important junction in America, I believe that not only should Limon be a control city, the usage of it should be greatly increased.
So first, of course Limon should be signed on I-70 west! It makes sense, as Denver is only a place where people go to smoke weed. I believe that Limon should be signed going westbound on I-70 since Maryland (not Baltimore since I-70 doesn't go there) as it features the uber important US 24 junction to get to Colorado Springs, the greatest city in the American west. In the unamerican state of Colorado, Colorado Springs is a beacon of hope. It features two of the most important institutions in America: Focus on the Family and the Air Force Academy. Both quintessential American institutions! Going eastbound on I-70, Limon should be signed going east on I-70 since I-15. The reason for that is that Colorado is a state that any real American would not want to live in. Exiting at Limon onto US 287 allows us to get to one of the best states in America, Oklahoma. And besides, nobody wants to go to Denver anyway. Once you enter Limon, you enter the real America.
As you can see, any real American should support the usage of Limon on every single sign on I-70, due to it's great importance to America. Thank you and god bless America.
(https://i.imgur.com/AzbRCdq.png)
Did you lose a bet? Sounds like something I'd have to write if thspfc and I argued about something in the NFL thread.
From one of the past Limon threads:
Quote from: on_wisconsin on November 27, 2021, 02:39:12 PM
Whats a Limon, and does it go well with gin?
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 01, 2023, 02:44:40 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/AzbRCdq.png)
And on the other side of the road
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52785825708_5133a559a8_o.jpg)
I'll support making Limon the new capital of America since it's more centrally located.
Control City Freak isn't gonna be very happy about this.
Would we have a new 3di for Limon?
Quote from: on_wisconsin on April 01, 2023, 09:22:40 AM
From one of the past Limon threads:
Quote from: on_wisconsin on November 27, 2021, 02:39:12 PM
Whats a Limon, and does it go well with gin?
The town's name is a misspelling of the legendary lymon, found only in Sprite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHMh8HUPLx8
Quote from: Hunty2022 on April 01, 2023, 10:08:03 AM
Control City Freak isn't gonna be very happy about this.
Would we have a new 3di for Limon?
Yes I-70 from Grand Junction to Limon would become I-870 as I-70 is getting rerouted through Colotado Springs
Does Limon have a Buc-ees, a Cracker Barrel and a Waffle House?
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on April 01, 2023, 09:53:12 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 01, 2023, 02:44:40 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/AzbRCdq.png)
And on the other side of the road
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52785825708_5133a559a8_o.jpg)
Not quite.
(https://i.imgur.com/H9zH96K.png)
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 01, 2023, 09:12:29 AM
Did you lose a bet? Sounds like something I'd have to write if thspfc and I argued about something in the NFL thread.
Check the calendar
Just to be the terrific douche nozzle that I am about the played-out Limon thing, I actually bought a Colorado sticker in Limon last year; a little store let me use the restroom so I bought something in return.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230402/a3a021519338fa48ac244f5caf2ebfb6.jpg)
For anyone who's ever hoped that Yeehaw Junction was going to be a blast and a half, and wound up seriously disappointed, Limon is a worthy control city because what else is there east of Bennett, Colorado?
No, no, the most important control city is Weed, CA. Every sign should direct motorists how to get to Weed.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 01, 2023, 05:31:53 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 01, 2023, 09:12:29 AM
Did you lose a bet? Sounds like something I'd have to write if thspfc and I argued about something in the NFL thread.
Check the calendar
New record for the longest it's taken me to be fooled on April Fools. Almost got through the whole day.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 01, 2023, 01:13:03 PM
Does Limon have a Buc-ees, a Cracker Barrel and a Waffle House?
It has a state prison, which is nearly as good.
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on April 02, 2023, 08:07:53 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 01, 2023, 01:13:03 PM
Does Limon have a Buc-ees, a Cracker Barrel and a Waffle House?
It has a state prison, which is nearly as good.
Tangential question - what are the food and service options on those long haul highways? If Limon is indeed an important intersection, it could qualify for Pilot or something similar.
Quote from: kalvado on April 02, 2023, 08:25:59 AM
Tangential question - what are the food and service options on those long haul highways? If Limon is indeed an important intersection, it could qualify for Pilot or something similar.
There are a TA and a Flying J (Pilot) diagonally across the freeway from each other. I have no idea what's taking Love's so long to get in on the action. https://goo.gl/maps/J1nmHXwxJq5skJUk8
Quote from: kalvado on April 02, 2023, 08:25:59 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on April 02, 2023, 08:07:53 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 01, 2023, 01:13:03 PM
Does Limon have a Buc-ees, a Cracker Barrel and a Waffle House?
It has a state prison, which is nearly as good.
Tangential question - what are the food and service options on those long haul highways? If Limon is indeed an important intersection, it could qualify for Pilot or something similar.
Burlington and Hays are two that come quickly to mind for I-70 between Topeka and Denver.
Limon makes sense as a control city for the non-interstate routes that feed into it. But for I-70 Denver/Kansas City should be control cities.
For 3 tier millage signs however, Limon should be tier 2 between Denver and Hays.
Quote from: kalvado on April 02, 2023, 08:25:59 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on April 02, 2023, 08:07:53 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 01, 2023, 01:13:03 PM
Does Limon have a Buc-ees, a Cracker Barrel and a Waffle House?
It has a state prison, which is nearly as good.
Tangential question - what are the food and service options on those long haul highways? If Limon is indeed an important intersection, it could qualify for Pilot or something similar.
Between Salina and Denver, you basically have Russell, Hays, Colby, Goodland, Burlington, and Limon.
Uh Limon is a control city and that isn't going to change.
Back in the day they used to have Standish as a control city for NB I-75 at the eastern terminus of US-10 and then SB the control cities were Flint and Detroit. At that point NB the control city is Mackinac Bridge and the SB control city is Saginaw which they have corrected now.
As I posted in another thread, I'm actually okay if Limon isn't a control city going westbound, but it should be eastbound. Limon is more of a "if you don't stop now, there's a whole lot of nothin' coming up" heading east than it is coming into Colorado.
Eastbound should be Limon, Colby, Hays, Salina, Topeka, Kansas City. Westbound should be Topeka, Salina, Hays, Colby, Burlington, Denver. I'd also be okay with Goodland instead of Burlington just since states tend to be a little more partial to in-state control cities.
I posted this chart a while back too, which shows the distances required in each direction to drive to another city of x population. It shows the cities where there are "ledges" in ability to get hotels/food/services/auto-repair/etc.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJtK51Hq/I-70.png)
Obviously this comes down more to what a "control city" should be, which here is around here a deep philosophical, moral, and ethical question but I generally don't think control cities should be unidirectional where that applies (terminus cities are an obvious exception).
I don't think being the "last option" really qualifies something as a control city in my mind. That would be better served by making it the 2nd tier on the millage signs (and actually, I would argue that the 2nd tier on mileage signs should have services, unless it is a junction). The blue "last services for X miles" traveler information sign would also convey this better than making it a control city.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 03, 2023, 01:45:17 PM
Obviously this comes down more to what a "control city" should be, which here is around here a deep philosophical, moral, and ethical question but I generally don't think control cities should be unidirectional where that applies (terminus cities are an obvious exception).
I don't think being the "last option" really qualifies something as a control city in my mind. That would be better served by making it the 2nd tier on the millage signs (and actually, I would argue that the 2nd tier on mileage signs should have services, unless it is a junction). The blue "last services for X miles" traveler information sign would also convey this better than making it a control city.
For me, the "last option" refers to its relative prominence or importance in an area, which is what control cities should be from my perspective. The same reason places like Elko, Gallup, etc. I think are okay for control cities. I actually think Limon is better than Albert Lea. Albert Lea is certainly not the most important city in that general area of southern Minnesota.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 03, 2023, 02:12:34 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 03, 2023, 01:45:17 PM
Obviously this comes down more to what a "control city" should be, which here is around here a deep philosophical, moral, and ethical question but I generally don't think control cities should be unidirectional where that applies (terminus cities are an obvious exception).
I don't think being the "last option" really qualifies something as a control city in my mind. That would be better served by making it the 2nd tier on the millage signs (and actually, I would argue that the 2nd tier on mileage signs should have services, unless it is a junction). The blue "last services for X miles" traveler information sign would also convey this better than making it a control city.
For me, the "last option" refers to its relative prominence or importance in an area, which is what control cities should be from my perspective. The same reason places like Elko, Gallup, etc. I think are okay for control cities. I actually think Limon is better than Albert Lea. Albert Lea is certainly not the most important city in that general area of southern Minnesota.
The frustrating thing about Albert Lea is that the interchange in the city isn't even all that useful, as there are better ways to do the major movements from that intersection.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 03, 2023, 02:12:34 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 03, 2023, 01:45:17 PM
Obviously this comes down more to what a "control city" should be, which here is around here a deep philosophical, moral, and ethical question but I generally don't think control cities should be unidirectional where that applies (terminus cities are an obvious exception).
I don't think being the "last option" really qualifies something as a control city in my mind. That would be better served by making it the 2nd tier on the millage signs (and actually, I would argue that the 2nd tier on mileage signs should have services, unless it is a junction). The blue "last services for X miles" traveler information sign would also convey this better than making it a control city.
For me, the "last option" refers to its relative prominence or importance in an area, which is what control cities should be from my perspective. The same reason places like Elko, Gallup, etc. I think are okay for control cities. I actually think Limon is better than Albert Lea. Albert Lea is certainly not the most important city in that general area of southern Minnesota.
The only reason I would make Albert Lea a control city is because I think there should be one per state at minimum and Albert Lea is the most important one on I-90. But Limon is irrelevant compared to Denver.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 03, 2023, 02:59:43 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 03, 2023, 02:12:34 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 03, 2023, 01:45:17 PM
Obviously this comes down more to what a "control city" should be, which here is around here a deep philosophical, moral, and ethical question but I generally don't think control cities should be unidirectional where that applies (terminus cities are an obvious exception).
I don't think being the "last option" really qualifies something as a control city in my mind. That would be better served by making it the 2nd tier on the millage signs (and actually, I would argue that the 2nd tier on mileage signs should have services, unless it is a junction). The blue "last services for X miles" traveler information sign would also convey this better than making it a control city.
For me, the "last option" refers to its relative prominence or importance in an area, which is what control cities should be from my perspective. The same reason places like Elko, Gallup, etc. I think are okay for control cities. I actually think Limon is better than Albert Lea. Albert Lea is certainly not the most important city in that general area of southern Minnesota.
The only reason I would make Albert Lea a control city is because I think there should be one per state at minimum and Albert Lea is the most important one on I-90. But Limon is irrelevant compared to Denver.
They should use Rochester instead of Albert Lea.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 03, 2023, 03:09:21 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 03, 2023, 02:59:43 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 03, 2023, 02:12:34 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 03, 2023, 01:45:17 PM
Obviously this comes down more to what a "control city" should be, which here is around here a deep philosophical, moral, and ethical question but I generally don't think control cities should be unidirectional where that applies (terminus cities are an obvious exception).
I don't think being the "last option" really qualifies something as a control city in my mind. That would be better served by making it the 2nd tier on the millage signs (and actually, I would argue that the 2nd tier on mileage signs should have services, unless it is a junction). The blue "last services for X miles" traveler information sign would also convey this better than making it a control city.
For me, the "last option" refers to its relative prominence or importance in an area, which is what control cities should be from my perspective. The same reason places like Elko, Gallup, etc. I think are okay for control cities. I actually think Limon is better than Albert Lea. Albert Lea is certainly not the most important city in that general area of southern Minnesota.
The only reason I would make Albert Lea a control city is because I think there should be one per state at minimum and Albert Lea is the most important one on I-90. But Limon is irrelevant compared to Denver.
They should use Rochester instead of Albert Lea.
Rochester is a kind of borderline case where its almost a destination on another route that intersects I-90 rather than being a destination on the route.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 03, 2023, 03:14:25 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 03, 2023, 03:09:21 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 03, 2023, 02:59:43 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 03, 2023, 02:12:34 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 03, 2023, 01:45:17 PM
Obviously this comes down more to what a "control city" should be, which here is around here a deep philosophical, moral, and ethical question but I generally don't think control cities should be unidirectional where that applies (terminus cities are an obvious exception).
I don't think being the "last option" really qualifies something as a control city in my mind. That would be better served by making it the 2nd tier on the millage signs (and actually, I would argue that the 2nd tier on mileage signs should have services, unless it is a junction). The blue "last services for X miles" traveler information sign would also convey this better than making it a control city.
For me, the "last option" refers to its relative prominence or importance in an area, which is what control cities should be from my perspective. The same reason places like Elko, Gallup, etc. I think are okay for control cities. I actually think Limon is better than Albert Lea. Albert Lea is certainly not the most important city in that general area of southern Minnesota.
The only reason I would make Albert Lea a control city is because I think there should be one per state at minimum and Albert Lea is the most important one on I-90. But Limon is irrelevant compared to Denver.
They should use Rochester instead of Albert Lea.
Rochester is a kind of borderline case where its almost a destination on another route that intersects I-90 rather than being a destination on the route.
I'd say it's close enough, especially since there aren't many other good options.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 03, 2023, 03:19:47 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 03, 2023, 03:14:25 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 03, 2023, 03:09:21 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 03, 2023, 02:59:43 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 03, 2023, 02:12:34 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 03, 2023, 01:45:17 PM
Obviously this comes down more to what a "control city" should be, which here is around here a deep philosophical, moral, and ethical question but I generally don't think control cities should be unidirectional where that applies (terminus cities are an obvious exception).
I don't think being the "last option" really qualifies something as a control city in my mind. That would be better served by making it the 2nd tier on the millage signs (and actually, I would argue that the 2nd tier on mileage signs should have services, unless it is a junction). The blue "last services for X miles" traveler information sign would also convey this better than making it a control city.
For me, the "last option" refers to its relative prominence or importance in an area, which is what control cities should be from my perspective. The same reason places like Elko, Gallup, etc. I think are okay for control cities. I actually think Limon is better than Albert Lea. Albert Lea is certainly not the most important city in that general area of southern Minnesota.
The only reason I would make Albert Lea a control city is because I think there should be one per state at minimum and Albert Lea is the most important one on I-90. But Limon is irrelevant compared to Denver.
They should use Rochester instead of Albert Lea.
Rochester is a kind of borderline case where its almost a destination on another route that intersects I-90 rather than being a destination on the route.
I'd say it's close enough, especially since there aren't many other good options.
My guess is that Albert Lea was chosen due to being the intersection of I-90 and I-35. However, since the dawn of the interstate system, Rochester has more than tripled in size while Albert Lea is about the same size it was then. It really should be Rochester.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 03, 2023, 03:26:52 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 03, 2023, 03:19:47 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 03, 2023, 03:14:25 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 03, 2023, 03:09:21 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 03, 2023, 02:59:43 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 03, 2023, 02:12:34 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 03, 2023, 01:45:17 PM
Obviously this comes down more to what a "control city" should be, which here is around here a deep philosophical, moral, and ethical question but I generally don't think control cities should be unidirectional where that applies (terminus cities are an obvious exception).
I don't think being the "last option" really qualifies something as a control city in my mind. That would be better served by making it the 2nd tier on the millage signs (and actually, I would argue that the 2nd tier on mileage signs should have services, unless it is a junction). The blue "last services for X miles" traveler information sign would also convey this better than making it a control city.
For me, the "last option" refers to its relative prominence or importance in an area, which is what control cities should be from my perspective. The same reason places like Elko, Gallup, etc. I think are okay for control cities. I actually think Limon is better than Albert Lea. Albert Lea is certainly not the most important city in that general area of southern Minnesota.
The only reason I would make Albert Lea a control city is because I think there should be one per state at minimum and Albert Lea is the most important one on I-90. But Limon is irrelevant compared to Denver.
They should use Rochester instead of Albert Lea.
Rochester is a kind of borderline case where its almost a destination on another route that intersects I-90 rather than being a destination on the route.
I'd say it's close enough, especially since there aren't many other good options.
My guess is that Albert Lea was chosen due to being the intersection of I-90 and I-35. However, since the dawn of the interstate system, Rochester has more than tripled in size while Albert Lea is about the same size it was then. It really should be Rochester.
If Rochester was on I-90 and Albert Lea was not an intersection it would be an obvious case to me.
But Albert Lea is a major freeway intersection, and Rochester is really some distance from I-90.
I'd keep Albert Lea as the primary control city.
As to Rochester, for handling cases like this it could be a 2nd tier on the mileage sign with something like
JCT-US 63 To Rochester
The city limits of Rochester almost hit I-90.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 03, 2023, 03:47:19 PM
The city limits of Rochester almost hit I-90.
City limits in the US are pretty random in terms of what they include or don't. The city limits of Dallas for example run through mostly established neighborhoods often 10 miles+ inside the edge of the greater urban area. Smaller towns often have city limits that extend into virtually nothing. For this reason, city limits are not a very good test for these purposes.
I consider the "grid test" a bit more telling. Take Rapid City, or Sioux Falls, or Albert Lea. All have at least one exit that goes to a city street which is part of the town grid. It also works for Austin MN. But for Rochester, the exits go to other US highways that eventually enter Rochester proper, none of the exits interface with Rochester streets.
So, the fact that I-70 has an exit for Cooks Lane, which serves the West Hills neighborhood of Baltimore.......
I-65 between Birmingham and Nashville once had each of those cities as the primary control cities for the entire distance between them. Then throughout the 80's, Huntsville's population grew, it's city limits expanded to touch a portion of I-65, and I-565 was finally completed to I-65. So they changed it so now Huntsville is the primary control city leaving Nashville heading south and leaving Birmingham heading north. And now it makes even more sense because the city of Huntsville has now officially outgrown the city of Birmingham (though Birmingham's overall metro population remains larger).
So I see a very strong case for Rochester to be made the primary control city between Sioux Falls and LaCrosse on I-90. It has grown considerably over the years, has decent connections to I-90 despite those connections not being full interstates, and is ECONOMICALLY more important than Albert Lea. Just because a town is an intersection between an x0 and an x5 interstate, that doesn't mean it should automatically be the control city (looking at you, Benson, NC!).
Quote from: wriddle082 on April 03, 2023, 04:46:31 PM
I-65 between Birmingham and Nashville once had each of those cities as the primary control cities for the entire distance between them. Then throughout the 80's, Huntsville's population grew, it's city limits expanded to touch a portion of I-65, and I-565 was finally completed to I-65. So they changed it so now Huntsville is the primary control city leaving Nashville heading south and leaving Birmingham heading north. And now it makes even more sense because the city of Huntsville has now officially outgrown the city of Birmingham (though Birmingham's overall metro population remains larger).
So I see a very strong case for Rochester to be made the primary control city between Sioux Falls and LaCrosse on I-90. It has grown considerably over the years, has decent connections to I-90 despite those connections not being full interstates, and is ECONOMICALLY more important than Albert Lea. Just because a town is an intersection between an x0 and an x5 interstate, that doesn't mean it should automatically be the control city (looking at you, Benson, NC!).
Furthermore, with the Mayo Clinic, Rochester sees a fair number of visitors to the city. No one goes to Albert Lea intentionally.
Looks like from Topeka to Denver it goes Salina, Hays, Denver.
From Denver to Topeka it looks like it goes Limon, 'nothing', Hays, Salina, and Topeka.
From Denver to I-15 it appears to go Grand JCT, Utah, Salina, Richfield, Las Vegas.
From I-15 to Denver it goes Richfield / Denver, Salina, Green River, 'nothing', Grand JCT, Denver.
Quote from: wriddle082 on April 03, 2023, 04:46:31 PM
I-65 between Birmingham and Nashville once had each of those cities as the primary control cities for the entire distance between them. Then throughout the 80's, Huntsville's population grew, it's city limits expanded to touch a portion of I-65, and I-565 was finally completed to I-65. So they changed it so now Huntsville is the primary control city leaving Nashville heading south and leaving Birmingham heading north. And now it makes even more sense because the city of Huntsville has now officially outgrown the city of Birmingham (though Birmingham's overall metro population remains larger).
So I see a very strong case for Rochester to be made the primary control city between Sioux Falls and LaCrosse on I-90. It has grown considerably over the years, has decent connections to I-90 despite those connections not being full interstates, and is ECONOMICALLY more important than Albert Lea. Just because a town is an intersection between an x0 and an x5 interstate, that doesn't mean it should automatically be the control city (looking at you, Benson, NC!).
I had no idea that Huntsville was technically larger than Birmingham now. Interesting.
Quote from: wriddle082 on April 03, 2023, 04:46:31 PM
I-65 between Birmingham and Nashville once had each of those cities as the primary control cities for the entire distance between them. Then throughout the 80's, Huntsville's population grew, it's city limits expanded to touch a portion of I-65, and I-565 was finally completed to I-65. So they changed it so now Huntsville is the primary control city leaving Nashville heading south and leaving Birmingham heading north. And now it makes even more sense because the city of Huntsville has now officially outgrown the city of Birmingham (though Birmingham's overall metro population remains larger).
Though Huntsville is a control city on I-65 south of Nashville and north of Birmingham, most mileage signs to the next town/city point to Birmingham as the secondary choice - not Huntsville - if headed south of Nashville. Northbound from Birmingham, it points to Huntsville as the secondary (further) destination. That's probably just inertia on TNDOT's part; after all, it doesn't matter to them.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 03, 2023, 03:42:02 PM
If Rochester was on I-90 and Albert Lea was not an intersection it would be an obvious case to me.
But Albert Lea is a major freeway intersection, and Rochester is really some distance from I-90.
I'd keep Albert Lea as the primary control city.
As to Rochester, for handling cases like this it could be a 2nd tier on the mileage sign with something like JCT-US 63 To Rochester
Anyone else getting Baltimore vibes here?
Quote from: US 41 on April 03, 2023, 07:50:39 PM
Looks like from Topeka to Denver it goes Salina, Hays, Denver.
From Denver to Topeka it looks like it goes Limon, 'nothing', Hays, Salina, and Topeka.
From Denver to I-15 it appears to go Grand JCT, Utah, Salina, Richfield, Las Vegas.
From I-15 to Denver it goes Richfield / Denver, Salina, Green River, 'nothing', Grand JCT, Denver.
Clearly the solution is to just have the control cities in Denver be "I-70 west: Salina", "I-70 east: Salina".
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 03, 2023, 08:16:35 PM
Quote from: US 41 on April 03, 2023, 07:50:39 PM
Looks like from Topeka to Denver it goes Salina, Hays, Denver.
From Denver to Topeka it looks like it goes Limon, 'nothing', Hays, Salina, and Topeka.
From Denver to I-15 it appears to go Grand JCT, Utah, Salina, Richfield, Las Vegas.
From I-15 to Denver it goes Richfield / Denver, Salina, Green River, 'nothing', Grand JCT, Denver.
Clearly the solution is to just have the control cities in Denver be "I-70 west: Salina", "I-70 east: Salina".
All roads lead to Rome
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 03, 2023, 01:10:44 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 02, 2023, 08:25:59 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on April 02, 2023, 08:07:53 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 01, 2023, 01:13:03 PM
Does Limon have a Buc-ees, a Cracker Barrel and a Waffle House?
It has a state prison, which is nearly as good.
Tangential question - what are the food and service options on those long haul highways? If Limon is indeed an important intersection, it could qualify for Pilot or something similar.
Between Salina and Denver, you basically have Russell, Hays, Colby, Goodland, Burlington, and Limon.
And there's a similarly great food establishment in Burlington, though this one is a privately-owned one.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 03, 2023, 08:16:35 PM
Quote from: US 41 on April 03, 2023, 07:50:39 PM
Looks like from Topeka to Denver it goes Salina, Hays, Denver.
From Denver to Topeka it looks like it goes Limon, 'nothing', Hays, Salina, and Topeka.
From Denver to I-15 it appears to go Grand JCT, Utah, Salina, Richfield, Las Vegas.
From I-15 to Denver it goes Richfield / Denver, Salina, Green River, 'nothing', Grand JCT, Denver.
Clearly the solution is to just have the control cities in Denver be "I-70 west: Salina", "I-70 east: Salina".
:-D
When I was doing that research it actually threw me off at first when I saw the sign on GSV. I thought Google Maps had somehow taken me back to Kansas until I looked closer at the surrounding scenery.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 03, 2023, 04:13:39 PM
So, the fact that I-70 has an exit for Cooks Lane, which serves the West Hills neighborhood of Baltimore.......
Is not sufficient for a city of that size, as shown by the fact that the route as designed had service to much more of the city. With a town the size of Albert Lea or even Rapid City/Sioux Falls, that exit is still quite close to city center and meaningfully serves the city as a whole. That does not scale to a large city like Baltimore, DC, Dallas, etc.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 03, 2023, 05:05:32 PM
Quote from: wriddle082 on April 03, 2023, 04:46:31 PM
I-65 between Birmingham and Nashville once had each of those cities as the primary control cities for the entire distance between them. Then throughout the 80's, Huntsville's population grew, it's city limits expanded to touch a portion of I-65, and I-565 was finally completed to I-65. So they changed it so now Huntsville is the primary control city leaving Nashville heading south and leaving Birmingham heading north. And now it makes even more sense because the city of Huntsville has now officially outgrown the city of Birmingham (though Birmingham's overall metro population remains larger).
So I see a very strong case for Rochester to be made the primary control city between Sioux Falls and LaCrosse on I-90. It has grown considerably over the years, has decent connections to I-90 despite those connections not being full interstates, and is ECONOMICALLY more important than Albert Lea. Just because a town is an intersection between an x0 and an x5 interstate, that doesn't mean it should automatically be the control city (looking at you, Benson, NC!).
Furthermore, with the Mayo Clinic, Rochester sees a fair number of visitors to the city. No one goes to Albert Lea intentionally.
I'm not disputing that Rochester is far more important than Albert Lea, but that is not really the only relevant criterion. New York City and London are both far more important than either of them, but neither is on I-90 so they can't be control cities. Likewise with Rochester, its not really on I-90, so it does not qualify.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 04, 2023, 11:42:13 PM
New York City and London are both far more important than either of them, but neither is on I-90 so they can't be control cities. Likewise with Rochester, its not really on I-90, so it does not qualify.
This isn't even comparable... I-90 is over a hundred miles from NYC. The city limits of Rochester are only around a mile off of I-90...
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 04, 2023, 11:39:37 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 03, 2023, 04:13:39 PM
So, the fact that I-70 has an exit for Cooks Lane, which serves the West Hills neighborhood of Baltimore.......
Is not sufficient for a city of that size, as shown by the fact that the route as designed had service to much more of the city. With a town the size of Albert Lea or even Rapid City/Sioux Falls, that exit is still quite close to city center and meaningfully serves the city as a whole. That does not scale to a large city like Baltimore, DC, Dallas, etc.
This shit again? :rolleyes:
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 04, 2023, 11:59:53 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 04, 2023, 11:42:13 PM
New York City and London are both far more important than either of them, but neither is on I-90 so they can't be control cities. Likewise with Rochester, its not really on I-90, so it does not qualify.
This isn't even comparable... I-90 is over a hundred miles from NYC. The city limits of Rochester are only around a mile off of I-90...
But the city limits are well outside of the urbanized area.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2023, 12:03:53 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 04, 2023, 11:59:53 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 04, 2023, 11:42:13 PM
New York City and London are both far more important than either of them, but neither is on I-90 so they can't be control cities. Likewise with Rochester, its not really on I-90, so it does not qualify.
This isn't even comparable... I-90 is over a hundred miles from NYC. The city limits of Rochester are only around a mile off of I-90...
But the city limits are well outside of the urbanized area.
So? What's your argument here? I-90 does not provide access to/from Rochester? Sure :-D
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 05, 2023, 12:40:58 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2023, 12:03:53 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 04, 2023, 11:59:53 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 04, 2023, 11:42:13 PM
New York City and London are both far more important than either of them, but neither is on I-90 so they can't be control cities. Likewise with Rochester, its not really on I-90, so it does not qualify.
This isn't even comparable... I-90 is over a hundred miles from NYC. The city limits of Rochester are only around a mile off of I-90...
But the city limits are well outside of the urbanized area.
So? What's your argument here? I-90 does not provide access to/from Rochester? Sure :-D
It appears that Kentucky uses Ashland on I-64 as a control city. Yet Ashland is several miles from the freeway in a north direction similar to Rochester from I-90 in MN.
Savannah, GA on I-95 was the same until the City annexed rural parts of Chatham County, GA post development where the interstate signed with Savannah being ten miles to the east of it Is now within it.
Can I-80 not use Chicago as a control city?
Quote from: roadman65 on April 05, 2023, 01:04:57 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 05, 2023, 12:40:58 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2023, 12:03:53 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 04, 2023, 11:59:53 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 04, 2023, 11:42:13 PM
New York City and London are both far more important than either of them, but neither is on I-90 so they can't be control cities. Likewise with Rochester, its not really on I-90, so it does not qualify.
This isn't even comparable... I-90 is over a hundred miles from NYC. The city limits of Rochester are only around a mile off of I-90...
But the city limits are well outside of the urbanized area.
So? What's your argument here? I-90 does not provide access to/from Rochester? Sure :-D
It appears that Kentucky uses Ashland on I-64 as a control city. Yet Ashland is several miles from the freeway in a north direction similar to Rochester from I-90 in MN.
Savannah, GA on I-95 was the same until the City annexed rural parts of Chatham County, GA post development where the interstate signed with Savannah being ten miles to the east of it Is now within it.
The same applies to Fayetteville, NC along I-95... it doesn't pass through that control city directly. But it sure is the best option between Florence and Rocky Mount - which I-95 doesn't directly pass through either!
I think the highways are strategically designed in this regard... they get close enough to the cities to provide access via other highways, but themselves avoid the city core / urban freeway aspect, prioritizing long haul traffic.
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 05, 2023, 02:13:30 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 05, 2023, 01:04:57 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 05, 2023, 12:40:58 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2023, 12:03:53 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 04, 2023, 11:59:53 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 04, 2023, 11:42:13 PM
New York City and London are both far more important than either of them, but neither is on I-90 so they can't be control cities. Likewise with Rochester, its not really on I-90, so it does not qualify.
This isn't even comparable... I-90 is over a hundred miles from NYC. The city limits of Rochester are only around a mile off of I-90...
But the city limits are well outside of the urbanized area.
So? What's your argument here? I-90 does not provide access to/from Rochester? Sure :-D
It appears that Kentucky uses Ashland on I-64 as a control city. Yet Ashland is several miles from the freeway in a north direction similar to Rochester from I-90 in MN.
Savannah, GA on I-95 was the same until the City annexed rural parts of Chatham County, GA post development where the interstate signed with Savannah being ten miles to the east of it Is now within it.
The same applies to Fayetteville, NC along I-95… it doesn’t pass through that control city directly. But it sure is the best option between Florence and Rocky Mount - which I-95 doesn’t directly pass through either!
I think the highways are strategically designed in this regard… they get close enough to the cities to provide access via other highways, but themselves avoid the city core / urban freeway aspect, prioritizing long haul traffic.
Funny thing about I-95 and Fayetteville. The reason why the bypass was completed last on the interstate was that the city originally wanted I-95 to go through it and not skirt it. Therefore the City held up the state in litigation holding back construction as business owners feared the loss of revenue that would later be lost if the through traffic got rerouted.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 02:12:34 AM
Can I-80 not use Chicago as a control city?
Right. The highway doesn't have to physically enter the city. I-90 serves Rochester. I-80 serves Chicago.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 03, 2023, 03:58:19 PM
City limits in the US are pretty random in terms of what they include or don't. The city limits of Dallas for example run through mostly established neighborhoods often 10 miles+ inside the edge of the greater urban area. Smaller towns often have city limits that extend into virtually nothing. For this reason, city limits are not a very good test for these purposes.
I consider the "grid test" a bit more telling. Take Rapid City, or Sioux Falls, or Albert Lea. All have at least one exit that goes to a city street which is part of the town grid. It also works for Austin MN. But for Rochester, the exits go to other US highways that eventually enter Rochester proper, none of the exits interface with Rochester streets.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 03, 2023, 04:13:39 PM
So, the fact that I-70 has an exit for Cooks Lane, which serves the West Hills neighborhood of Baltimore.......
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 04, 2023, 11:39:37 PM
Is not sufficient for a city of that size, as shown by the fact that the route as designed had service to much more of the city. With a town the size of Albert Lea or even Rapid City/Sioux Falls, that exit is still quite close to city center and meaningfully serves the city as a whole. That does not scale to a large city like Baltimore, DC, Dallas, etc.
So, to recap, if an interstate has an exit for a street that enters the city limits, it can be a control city. Except for Baltimore. Just cuz. K.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 05, 2023, 08:48:13 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 02:12:34 AM
Can I-80 not use Chicago as a control city?
Right. The highway doesn't have to physically enter the city. I-90 serves Rochester. I-80 serves Chicago.
It's interesting (at least to me) that I-90 serves both Rochester NY and MN without entering either city.
Also, if Tomah can be a control city in Wisconsin, Albert Lea is large enough to be a control city.
Quote from: skluth on April 05, 2023, 11:04:37 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 05, 2023, 08:48:13 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 02:12:34 AM
Can I-80 not use Chicago as a control city?
Right. The highway doesn't have to physically enter the city. I-90 serves Rochester. I-80 serves Chicago.
It's interesting (at least to me) that I-90 serves both Rochester NY and MN without entering either city.
Also, if Tomah can be a control city in Wisconsin, Albert Lea is large enough to be a control city.
Tomah isn't an official control city according to AASHTO.
https://traffic.transportation.org/interstate-control-cities/
Quote from: skluth on April 05, 2023, 11:04:37 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 05, 2023, 08:48:13 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 02:12:34 AM
Can I-80 not use Chicago as a control city?
Right. The highway doesn't have to physically enter the city. I-90 serves Rochester. I-80 serves Chicago.
It's interesting (at least to me) that I-90 serves both Rochester NY and MN without entering either city.
Also, if Tomah can be a control city in Wisconsin, Albert Lea is large enough to be a control city.
I don't like Tomah either. West of Wisconsin Dells it should be alternating Eau Claire/La Crosse. Tomah is 20 something miles away from a much more important town. The only thing that Tomah has is a junction. A junction and regional importance can be a justification for a control city, but Tomah is certainly not that.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 05, 2023, 11:12:09 AM
Quote from: skluth on April 05, 2023, 11:04:37 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 05, 2023, 08:48:13 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 02:12:34 AM
Can I-80 not use Chicago as a control city?
Right. The highway doesn't have to physically enter the city. I-90 serves Rochester. I-80 serves Chicago.
It's interesting (at least to me) that I-90 serves both Rochester NY and MN without entering either city.
Also, if Tomah can be a control city in Wisconsin, Albert Lea is large enough to be a control city.
Tomah isn't an official control city according to AASHTO.
https://traffic.transportation.org/interstate-control-cities/
I would imagine this list isn't an exhaustive list. Using 76 as an example, the easternmost control city is Philadelphia, yet I-76 enters New Jersey.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 05, 2023, 11:24:35 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 05, 2023, 11:12:09 AM
Quote from: skluth on April 05, 2023, 11:04:37 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 05, 2023, 08:48:13 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 02:12:34 AM
Can I-80 not use Chicago as a control city?
Right. The highway doesn't have to physically enter the city. I-90 serves Rochester. I-80 serves Chicago.
It's interesting (at least to me) that I-90 serves both Rochester NY and MN without entering either city.
Also, if Tomah can be a control city in Wisconsin, Albert Lea is large enough to be a control city.
Tomah isn't an official control city according to AASHTO.
https://traffic.transportation.org/interstate-control-cities/
I would imagine this list isn't an exhaustive list. Using 76 as an example, the easternmost control city is Philadelphia, yet I-76 enters New Jersey.
I also think its not how states actually sign everything. I was looking at a couple of exits between the Dells and Tomah, and they have directional signage for Madison (ignoring the Dells) and Tomah.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 05, 2023, 11:24:35 AM
I would imagine this list isn't an exhaustive list. Using 76 as an example, the easternmost control city is Philadelphia, yet I-76 enters New Jersey.
As I remember, there isn't a control city for I-76 East once you hit Philly city limits, right? Other than Walt Whitman Bridge.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 05, 2023, 11:33:13 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 05, 2023, 11:24:35 AM
I would imagine this list isn't an exhaustive list. Using 76 as an example, the easternmost control city is Philadelphia, yet I-76 enters New Jersey.
As I remember, there isn't a control city for I-76 East once you hit Philly city limits, right? Other than Walt Whitman Bridge.
For the most part yes, but there are also some signs that read "Central Phila"
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 05, 2023, 09:08:21 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 03, 2023, 03:58:19 PM
City limits in the US are pretty random in terms of what they include or don't. The city limits of Dallas for example run through mostly established neighborhoods often 10 miles+ inside the edge of the greater urban area. Smaller towns often have city limits that extend into virtually nothing. For this reason, city limits are not a very good test for these purposes.
I consider the "grid test" a bit more telling. Take Rapid City, or Sioux Falls, or Albert Lea. All have at least one exit that goes to a city street which is part of the town grid. It also works for Austin MN. But for Rochester, the exits go to other US highways that eventually enter Rochester proper, none of the exits interface with Rochester streets.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 03, 2023, 04:13:39 PM
So, the fact that I-70 has an exit for Cooks Lane, which serves the West Hills neighborhood of Baltimore.......
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 04, 2023, 11:39:37 PM
Is not sufficient for a city of that size, as shown by the fact that the route as designed had service to much more of the city. With a town the size of Albert Lea or even Rapid City/Sioux Falls, that exit is still quite close to city center and meaningfully serves the city as a whole. That does not scale to a large city like Baltimore, DC, Dallas, etc.
So, to recap, if an interstate has an exit for a street that enters the city limits, it can be a control city. Except for Baltimore. Just cuz. K.
Whatever it worth... I-87 has a control city of Montreal - even though I-87 doesn't enter not only Montreal city limits, but neither Quebec province nor Canada...
Quote from: kalvado on April 05, 2023, 12:31:38 PM
Whatever it worth... I-87 has a control city of Montreal - even though I-87 doesn't enter not only Montreal city limits, but neither Quebec province nor Canada...
And it 100% makes sense.
Quote from: kalvado on April 05, 2023, 12:31:38 PM
Whatever it worth... I-87 has a control city of Montreal - even though I-87 doesn't enter not only Montreal city limits, but neither Quebec province nor Canada...
A-15 does, and I see that situation as being similar to when a state route crosses into another state and changes number. Should NY 7 not have Bennington as a control city?
I'm pretty sure the city limits of Rochester extend that far south so the airport can be included in the city limits. Pretty much the same as Flint, MI having the city limits stretch out to include Bishop Airport on the other side of I-75. That's the only point I-75 even enters Flint proper is at the Bristol Road interchange, outside of that it's Flint Township to the north and Mundy Township to the south.
No one has mentioned that I-80 doesn't go to NYC, yet has a control city of NYC?
Quote from: hbelkins on April 05, 2023, 01:21:43 PM
No one has mentioned that I-80 doesn't go to NYC, yet has a control city of NYC?
I-80 ends in the NYC Metro area though and is reached via a short trip along another highway.
Quote from: kalvado on April 05, 2023, 12:31:38 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 05, 2023, 09:08:21 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 03, 2023, 03:58:19 PM
City limits in the US are pretty random in terms of what they include or don't. The city limits of Dallas for example run through mostly established neighborhoods often 10 miles+ inside the edge of the greater urban area. Smaller towns often have city limits that extend into virtually nothing. For this reason, city limits are not a very good test for these purposes.
I consider the "grid test" a bit more telling. Take Rapid City, or Sioux Falls, or Albert Lea. All have at least one exit that goes to a city street which is part of the town grid. It also works for Austin MN. But for Rochester, the exits go to other US highways that eventually enter Rochester proper, none of the exits interface with Rochester streets.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 03, 2023, 04:13:39 PM
So, the fact that I-70 has an exit for Cooks Lane, which serves the West Hills neighborhood of Baltimore.......
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 04, 2023, 11:39:37 PM
Is not sufficient for a city of that size, as shown by the fact that the route as designed had service to much more of the city. With a town the size of Albert Lea or even Rapid City/Sioux Falls, that exit is still quite close to city center and meaningfully serves the city as a whole. That does not scale to a large city like Baltimore, DC, Dallas, etc.
So, to recap, if an interstate has an exit for a street that enters the city limits, it can be a control city. Except for Baltimore. Just cuz. K.
Whatever it worth... I-87 has a control city of Montreal - even though I-87 doesn't enter not only Montreal city limits, but neither Quebec province nor Canada...
But it is going in that direction and can be reached via the same highway just with a different route number.
Quote from: kalvado on April 05, 2023, 12:31:38 PM
Whatever it worth... I-87 has a control city of Montreal - even though I-87 doesn't enter not only Montreal city limits, but neither Quebec province nor Canada...
It would if FritzOwl had any influence on the Canadian highway system.
Quote from: vdeane on April 05, 2023, 12:39:25 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 05, 2023, 12:31:38 PM
Whatever it worth... I-87 has a control city of Montreal - even though I-87 doesn't enter not only Montreal city limits, but neither Quebec province nor Canada...
A-15 does, and I see that situation as being similar to when a state route crosses into another state and changes number. Should NY 7 not have Bennington as a control city?
Since this is about being pedantic, rather than practical...
Is there a difference between Rochester NY being reachable from I-90 via I-390/490 and Montreal being reachable from I-87 via A-15?
I would say that both can be used for practical navigation. Some people seem a little too puristic about it.
Not to mention the famous example of Los Angeles on I-40.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 01:50:55 PM
Not to mention the famous example of Los Angeles on I-40.
Or Las Vegas on I-70.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 05, 2023, 01:55:31 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 01:50:55 PM
Not to mention the famous example of Los Angeles on I-40.
Or Las Vegas on I-70.
How often is Las Vegas used on I-70? I know it's on some mileage signs, but I thought that Utah mostly used Green River, Salina, or simply "I-15".
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 06:35:27 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 05, 2023, 01:55:31 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 01:50:55 PM
Not to mention the famous example of Los Angeles on I-40.
Or Las Vegas on I-70.
How often is Las Vegas used on I-70? I know it's on some mileage signs, but I thought that Utah mostly used Green River, Salina, or simply "I-15".
A couple spots. From interstate-guide.com:
(https://www.aaroads.com/ut/070/i-070-w-exit-031-2.jpg)
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 05, 2023, 07:04:51 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 06:35:27 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 05, 2023, 01:55:31 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 01:50:55 PM
Not to mention the famous example of Los Angeles on I-40.
Or Las Vegas on I-70.
How often is Las Vegas used on I-70? I know it's on some mileage signs, but I thought that Utah mostly used Green River, Salina, or simply "I-15".
A couple spots. From interstate-guide.com:
(https://www.aaroads.com/ut/070/i-070-w-exit-031-2.jpg)
That's not a control city.
Quote from: hbelkins on April 05, 2023, 01:21:43 PM
No one has mentioned that I-80 doesn't go to NYC, yet has a control city of NYC?
If MMM were still around, I'm sure there would already be a 50-100 post long tangent on the subject. It's one of the things he loved to go on about. Even more than HighwayStar likes to talk about I-70 not going to Baltimore.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 05, 2023, 07:42:12 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 05, 2023, 07:04:51 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 06:35:27 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 05, 2023, 01:55:31 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 01:50:55 PM
Not to mention the famous example of Los Angeles on I-40.
Or Las Vegas on I-70.
How often is Las Vegas used on I-70? I know it's on some mileage signs, but I thought that Utah mostly used Green River, Salina, or simply "I-15".
A couple spots. From interstate-guide.com:
(https://www.aaroads.com/ut/070/i-070-w-exit-031-2.jpg)
That's not a control city.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/y6VrogbgdU9sDisp9?g_st=ic
https://maps.app.goo.gl/W8EpgwYvLZnggw1p6?g_st=ic
https://maps.app.goo.gl/6V6KMLYHsAMSizE27?g_st=ic
https://maps.app.goo.gl/hGnQD7LshffBykWA6?g_st=ic
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 05, 2023, 07:42:12 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 05, 2023, 07:04:51 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 06:35:27 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 05, 2023, 01:55:31 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 01:50:55 PM
Not to mention the famous example of Los Angeles on I-40.
Or Las Vegas on I-70.
How often is Las Vegas used on I-70? I know it's on some mileage signs, but I thought that Utah mostly used Green River, Salina, or simply "I-15".
A couple spots. From interstate-guide.com:
(https://www.aaroads.com/ut/070/i-070-w-exit-031-2.jpg)
That's not a control city.
90% of the time, the lowest city on the distance sign is the control city. And
sprjus4 found plenty of options for how you define it.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 06:35:27 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 05, 2023, 01:55:31 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 01:50:55 PM
Not to mention the famous example of Los Angeles on I-40.
Or Las Vegas on I-70.
How often is Las Vegas used on I-70? I know it's on some mileage signs, but I thought that Utah mostly used Green River, Salina, or simply "I-15".
W 1300 S
https://maps.app.goo.gl/nqe1SK6KG5Gzd7Hs6
Well, I-84 uses Boston as a control and I-384 uses Providence, though neither comes within 55 and 80 miles, respectively, of the control. I-78 doesn't enter Harrisburg, and I-95 enters DC for 0.11 miles, yet both are controls.
A-20 uses Québec (City) both WB from Rivière-du-Loup and EB from Montréal, yet the freeway doesn't enter Québec City proper. Still, A-20 is the way to go between Montréal and Québec City (as shown in the phrase à l'autre bout de la 20, on the other end of A-20).
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 05, 2023, 09:38:02 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 05, 2023, 07:42:12 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 05, 2023, 07:04:51 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 06:35:27 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 05, 2023, 01:55:31 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 01:50:55 PM
Not to mention the famous example of Los Angeles on I-40.
Or Las Vegas on I-70.
How often is Las Vegas used on I-70? I know it's on some mileage signs, but I thought that Utah mostly used Green River, Salina, or simply "I-15".
A couple spots. From interstate-guide.com:
(https://www.aaroads.com/ut/070/i-070-w-exit-031-2.jpg)
That's not a control city.
90% of the time, the lowest city on the distance sign is the control city. And sprjus4 found plenty of options for how you define it.
Right. He provided an accurate picture. You did not.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 06, 2023, 10:32:58 AM
Right. He provided an accurate picture. You did not.
Cool.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 06, 2023, 10:32:58 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 05, 2023, 09:38:02 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 05, 2023, 07:42:12 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 05, 2023, 07:04:51 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 06:35:27 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 05, 2023, 01:55:31 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 01:50:55 PM
Not to mention the famous example of Los Angeles on I-40.
Or Las Vegas on I-70.
How often is Las Vegas used on I-70? I know it's on some mileage signs, but I thought that Utah mostly used Green River, Salina, or simply "I-15".
A couple spots. From interstate-guide.com:
(https://www.aaroads.com/ut/070/i-070-w-exit-031-2.jpg)
That's not a control city.
90% of the time, the lowest city on the distance sign is the control city. And sprjus4 found plenty of options for how you define it.
Right. He provided an accurate picture. You did not.
The level of pettiness is impressive even to me.
Quote from: thspfc on April 06, 2023, 11:21:17 AM
The level of pettiness is impressive even to me.
:-D ;-)
Quote from: thspfc on April 06, 2023, 11:21:17 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 06, 2023, 10:32:58 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 05, 2023, 09:38:02 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 05, 2023, 07:42:12 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 05, 2023, 07:04:51 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 06:35:27 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 05, 2023, 01:55:31 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 01:50:55 PM
Not to mention the famous example of Los Angeles on I-40.
Or Las Vegas on I-70.
How often is Las Vegas used on I-70? I know it's on some mileage signs, but I thought that Utah mostly used Green River, Salina, or simply "I-15".
A couple spots. From interstate-guide.com:
(https://www.aaroads.com/ut/070/i-070-w-exit-031-2.jpg)
That's not a control city.
90% of the time, the lowest city on the distance sign is the control city. And sprjus4 found plenty of options for how you define it.
Right. He provided an accurate picture. You did not.
The level of pettiness is impressive even to me.
Sorry but providing a picture of a mileage sign and claiming it shows a control city is lazy and/or dishonest.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 06, 2023, 11:51:55 AM
Sorry but providing a picture of a mileage sign and claiming it shows a control city is lazy and/or dishonest.
You got me. I was trying to sneak one by you. And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for
SEWIGuy and his pesky dog.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 05, 2023, 12:03:11 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 04, 2023, 11:39:37 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 03, 2023, 04:13:39 PM
So, the fact that I-70 has an exit for Cooks Lane, which serves the West Hills neighborhood of Baltimore.......
Is not sufficient for a city of that size, as shown by the fact that the route as designed had service to much more of the city. With a town the size of Albert Lea or even Rapid City/Sioux Falls, that exit is still quite close to city center and meaningfully serves the city as a whole. That does not scale to a large city like Baltimore, DC, Dallas, etc.
This shit again? :rolleyes:
Seriously. I thought we were done with this crap.
Can we get back to discussing Limon?
This whole thread was just a silly April Fool's joke by me...
Is this the longest an April Fools thread stayed active after April Fools?
Quote from: Hunty2022 on April 06, 2023, 05:30:10 PM
Is this the longest an April Fools thread stayed active after April Fools?
I was about to quote a counterexample (Who Else is Bucking the Car Trend? (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=28938.msg2592606#msg2592606)), but this one has actually lasted longer.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 06, 2023, 11:58:44 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 06, 2023, 11:51:55 AM
Sorry but providing a picture of a mileage sign and claiming it shows a control city is lazy and/or dishonest.
You got me. I was trying to sneak one by you. And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for SEWIGuy and his pesky dog.
Yep. I guess I'm just smarter than you.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 06, 2023, 05:56:11 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 06, 2023, 11:58:44 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 06, 2023, 11:51:55 AM
Sorry but providing a picture of a mileage sign and claiming it shows a control city is lazy and/or dishonest.
You got me. I was trying to sneak one by you. And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for SEWIGuy and his pesky dog.
Yep. I guess I'm just smarter than you.
You know, if your end goal was pedantry–and I love a good pedantic post from time to time–it would have been much easier to go the route of observing I-15 is not a city and therefore cannot be a control city.
Thirty points from Wisconsin for not seeing the obvious answer.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 06, 2023, 07:25:07 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 06, 2023, 05:56:11 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 06, 2023, 11:58:44 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 06, 2023, 11:51:55 AM
Sorry but providing a picture of a mileage sign and claiming it shows a control city is lazy and/or dishonest.
You got me. I was trying to sneak one by you. And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for SEWIGuy and his pesky dog.
Yep. I guess I'm just smarter than you.
You know, if your end goal was pedantry–and I love a good pedantic post from time to time–it would have been much easier to go the route of observing I-15 is not a city and therefore cannot be a control city.
Thirty points from Wisconsin for not seeing the obvious answer.
According to AASHTO link posted above, I-15, IH-84, Canada, and Tappan Zee Bridge
are cities.
Quote from: kalvado on April 06, 2023, 07:55:34 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 06, 2023, 07:25:07 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 06, 2023, 05:56:11 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 06, 2023, 11:58:44 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 06, 2023, 11:51:55 AM
Sorry but providing a picture of a mileage sign and claiming it shows a control city is lazy and/or dishonest.
You got me. I was trying to sneak one by you. And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for SEWIGuy and his pesky dog.
Yep. I guess I'm just smarter than you.
You know, if your end goal was pedantry–and I love a good pedantic post from time to time–it would have been much easier to go the route of observing I-15 is not a city and therefore cannot be a control city.
Thirty points from Wisconsin for not seeing the obvious answer.
According to AASHTO link posted above, I-15, IH-84, Canada, and Tappan Zee Bridge are cities.
Why can't I vote in their city council elections, then?
(I mean, I guess you could with Canada.)
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 06, 2023, 08:48:47 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 06, 2023, 07:55:34 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 06, 2023, 07:25:07 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 06, 2023, 05:56:11 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 06, 2023, 11:58:44 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 06, 2023, 11:51:55 AM
Sorry but providing a picture of a mileage sign and claiming it shows a control city is lazy and/or dishonest.
You got me. I was trying to sneak one by you. And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for SEWIGuy and his pesky dog.
Yep. I guess I'm just smarter than you.
You know, if your end goal was pedantry–and I love a good pedantic post from time to time–it would have been much easier to go the route of observing I-15 is not a city and therefore cannot be a control city.
Thirty points from Wisconsin for not seeing the obvious answer.
According to AASHTO link posted above, I-15, IH-84, Canada, and Tappan Zee Bridge are cities.
Why can't I vote in their city council elections, then?
(I mean, I guess you could with Canada.)
You have to move to those cities before you could vote, obviously.
You also have New Orleans signed on I-55, although it only ends in LaPlace, LA, and you still need to get on I-10 east to actually get to the implied destination.
Neither I-76 nor I-79 go to Pittsburgh, and yet it still shows up on signs leading up to their associated 3di's that actually enter it.
I-40 isn't the only Los Angeles-signed 2di that never reaches it; I-15 has that too, and misses it by 60 miles, which can be made up by taking I-10 west.
Quote from: kalvado on April 06, 2023, 09:50:37 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 06, 2023, 08:48:47 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 06, 2023, 07:55:34 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 06, 2023, 07:25:07 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 06, 2023, 05:56:11 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 06, 2023, 11:58:44 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 06, 2023, 11:51:55 AM
Sorry but providing a picture of a mileage sign and claiming it shows a control city is lazy and/or dishonest.
You got me. I was trying to sneak one by you. And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for SEWIGuy and his pesky dog.
Yep. I guess I'm just smarter than you.
You know, if your end goal was pedantry–and I love a good pedantic post from time to time–it would have been much easier to go the route of observing I-15 is not a city and therefore cannot be a control city.
Thirty points from Wisconsin for not seeing the obvious answer.
According to AASHTO link posted above, I-15, IH-84, Canada, and Tappan Zee Bridge are cities.
Why can't I vote in their city council elections, then?
(I mean, I guess you could with Canada.)
You have to move to those cities before you could vote, obviously.
To vote in an I-15 municipal election, is it enough to live in the Las Vegas area, or must I have my residence in the median?
We've discussed "control cities not on route" about 100000 times on this forum already. I-95 doesn't go into Boston proper, yadda yadda.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 06, 2023, 05:56:11 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 06, 2023, 11:58:44 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 06, 2023, 11:51:55 AM
Sorry but providing a picture of a mileage sign and claiming it shows a control city is lazy and/or dishonest.
You got me. I was trying to sneak one by you. And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for SEWIGuy and his pesky dog.
Yep. I guess I'm just smarter than you.
And clearly more likeable too.
Only the bottom line of a 3-line distance sign is a control city. I-15 wasn't on the bottom line.
Quote from: Henry on April 06, 2023, 10:07:07 PM
You also have New Orleans signed on I-55, although it only ends in LaPlace, LA, and you still need to get on I-10 east to actually get to the implied destination.
Neither I-76 nor I-79 go to Pittsburgh, and yet it still shows up on signs leading up to their associated 3di's that actually enter it.
I-40 isn't the only Los Angeles-signed 2di that never reaches it; I-15 has that too, and misses it by 60 miles, which can be made up by taking I-10 west.
That's why they are the control city, you continue along another route to get there. Like with New Orleans being on I-55, it ends at I-10 and I-10 takes you to New Orleans so that one is fine.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 06, 2023, 11:09:02 PM
We've discussed "control cities not on route" about 100000 times on this forum already. I-95 doesn't go into Boston proper, yadda yadda.
Nope but gets you close enough to it that you take one more route to get there. Just like with I-70 having Baltimore as a control city, it ends at the city limits and I think it's fine because what else would you use? The highway is heading toward Baltimore.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 06, 2023, 10:49:56 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 06, 2023, 09:50:37 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 06, 2023, 08:48:47 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 06, 2023, 07:55:34 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 06, 2023, 07:25:07 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 06, 2023, 05:56:11 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 06, 2023, 11:58:44 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 06, 2023, 11:51:55 AM
Sorry but providing a picture of a mileage sign and claiming it shows a control city is lazy and/or dishonest.
You got me. I was trying to sneak one by you. And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for SEWIGuy and his pesky dog.
Yep. I guess I'm just smarter than you.
You know, if your end goal was pedantry–and I love a good pedantic post from time to time–it would have been much easier to go the route of observing I-15 is not a city and therefore cannot be a control city.
Thirty points from Wisconsin for not seeing the obvious answer.
According to AASHTO link posted above, I-15, IH-84, Canada, and Tappan Zee Bridge are cities.
Why can't I vote in their city council elections, then?
(I mean, I guess you could with Canada.)
You have to move to those cities before you could vote, obviously.
To vote in an I-15 municipal election, is it enough to live in the Las Vegas area, or must I have my residence in the median?
I don't know personally, buy you may contact I-15 city hall with any questions or concerns. AASHTO office should be able to provide you a phone number or e-mail for that.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 07, 2023, 08:05:55 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 06, 2023, 11:09:02 PM
We've discussed "control cities not on route" about 100000 times on this forum already. I-95 doesn't go into Boston proper, yadda yadda.
Nope but gets you close enough to it that you take one more route to get there. Just like with I-70 having Baltimore as a control city, it ends at the city limits and I think it's fine because what else would you use? The highway is heading toward Baltimore.
What is "close enough" for you may be "way to far" for me. That's the main idea of this thread, actually.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 02:12:34 AM
Can I-80 not use Chicago as a control city?
Chicagoland is a much bigger metro area and has several interstate junctions that lead to downtown so it makes a ton of sense to use Chicago for I-80 (as well as Joliet being a city of its own before being swallowed up by urban sprawl.) As for Rochester, you certaily can make a case for signing Rochester at the very least as a secondary if not a primary. Personally, I have been persuaded that it should be a primary control for I-90 despite being a few miles off the highway. Certainly more credible than Albert Lea.
Quote from: skluth on April 05, 2023, 11:04:37 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 05, 2023, 08:48:13 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 02:12:34 AM
Can I-80 not use Chicago as a control city?
Right. The highway doesn't have to physically enter the city. I-90 serves Rochester. I-80 serves Chicago.
It's interesting (at least to me) that I-90 serves both Rochester NY and MN without entering either city.
Also, if Tomah can be a control city in Wisconsin, Albert Lea is large enough to be a control city.
Tomah is a secondary control city.
Quote from: kalvado on April 07, 2023, 11:06:42 AM
What is "close enough" for you may be "way to far" for me. That's the main idea of this thread, actually.
You nailed it. :nod:
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 05, 2023, 11:14:17 AM
Quote from: skluth on April 05, 2023, 11:04:37 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 05, 2023, 08:48:13 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 05, 2023, 02:12:34 AM
Can I-80 not use Chicago as a control city?
Right. The highway doesn't have to physically enter the city. I-90 serves Rochester. I-80 serves Chicago.
It's interesting (at least to me) that I-90 serves both Rochester NY and MN without entering either city.
Also, if Tomah can be a control city in Wisconsin, Albert Lea is large enough to be a control city.
I don't like Tomah either. West of Wisconsin Dells it should be alternating Eau Claire/La Crosse. Tomah is 20 something miles away from a much more important town. The only thing that Tomah has is a junction. A junction and regional importance can be a justification for a control city, but Tomah is certainly not that.
Try 40 miles between La Crosse and Tomah but you are correct.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 07, 2023, 12:00:09 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 07, 2023, 11:06:42 AM
What is "close enough" for you may be "way to far" for me. That's the main idea of this thread, actually.
You nailed it. :nod:
The main idea of this thread was to joke about Limon, not talk about whether control cities should be on the route or no.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 07, 2023, 02:58:23 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 07, 2023, 12:00:09 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 07, 2023, 11:06:42 AM
What is "close enough" for you may be "way to far" for me. That's the main idea of this thread, actually.
You nailed it. :nod:
The main idea of this thread was to joke about Limon, not talk about whether control cities should be on the route or no.
This is AARoads remember. Anything can happen. :bigass:
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 07, 2023, 02:58:23 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 07, 2023, 12:00:09 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 07, 2023, 11:06:42 AM
What is "close enough" for you may be "way to far" for me. That's the main idea of this thread, actually.
You nailed it. :nod:
The main idea of this thread was to joke about Limon, not talk about whether control cities should be on the route or no.
Once you post something, you no longer own it. Discussion lives on its own.
Okay everyone, show us where Limon touched you so we can report it to the authorities.
Quote from: Rothman on October 02, 2021, 11:50:54 PM
Like I've said: Discussions about control cities make me reach for my revolver.
Quote from: kalvado on April 07, 2023, 03:32:51 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 07, 2023, 02:58:23 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 07, 2023, 12:00:09 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 07, 2023, 11:06:42 AM
What is "close enough" for you may be "way to far" for me. That's the main idea of this thread, actually.
You nailed it. :nod:
The main idea of this thread was to joke about Limon, not talk about whether control cities should be on the route or no.
Once you post something, you no longer own it. Discussion lives on its own.
Though we have other threads for that. I can't believe that this thread is still alive, I made it as a silly April's fools day joke.
LIIIIIIIIMONNNN!!!!!
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 07, 2023, 05:38:15 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 07, 2023, 03:32:51 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 07, 2023, 02:58:23 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 07, 2023, 12:00:09 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 07, 2023, 11:06:42 AM
What is "close enough" for you may be "way to far" for me. That's the main idea of this thread, actually.
You nailed it. :nod:
The main idea of this thread was to joke about Limon, not talk about whether control cities should be on the route or no.
Once you post something, you no longer own it. Discussion lives on its own.
Though we have other threads for that. I can't believe that this thread is still alive, I made it as a silly April's fools day joke.
Looks like joke's on
you.
I remember when Sprite came about in the seventies. They used the result of Lemon and Lime together as a Limon taste to sell the soft drink.
Limon is fine as the middle line on a 3-line distance sign westbound. Probably eastbound too as kind of the last outpost.
Quote from: Road Hog on April 09, 2023, 07:52:04 PM
Limon is fine as the middle line on a 3-line distance sign westbound. Probably eastbound too as kind of the last outpost.
The bottom line going east out of Denver should honestly be "Kansas border".
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 09, 2023, 11:27:49 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on April 09, 2023, 07:52:04 PM
Limon is fine as the middle line on a 3-line distance sign westbound. Probably eastbound too as kind of the last outpost.
The bottom line going east out of Denver should honestly be "Kansas border".
Why?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 09, 2023, 11:27:49 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on April 09, 2023, 07:52:04 PM
Limon is fine as the middle line on a 3-line distance sign westbound. Probably eastbound too as kind of the last outpost.
The bottom line going east out of Denver should honestly be "Kansas border".
Or rather a town in Kansas.
Though actually I love the idea of state line being a 2nd tier on mileage signs, that seems very fitting.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 09, 2023, 11:27:49 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on April 09, 2023, 07:52:04 PM
Limon is fine as the middle line on a 3-line distance sign westbound. Probably eastbound too as kind of the last outpost.
The bottom line going east out of Denver should honestly be "Kansas border".
Control states are shit.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 10, 2023, 01:26:26 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 09, 2023, 11:27:49 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on April 09, 2023, 07:52:04 PM
Limon is fine as the middle line on a 3-line distance sign westbound. Probably eastbound too as kind of the last outpost.
The bottom line going east out of Denver should honestly be "Kansas border".
Or rather a town in Kansas.
Though actually I love the idea of state line being a 2nd tier on mileage signs, that seems very fitting.
Hays should be or even Topeka.
Man, how I love when people who live within 90 minutes of the Atlantic know what's best way out here.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 10, 2023, 08:39:30 AM
Man, how I love when people who live within 90 minutes of the Atlantic know what's best way out here.
Did you expect anything different? I am waiting for some entrepreneur in either NYC or SFO to open swimming school for fishes.
It's well known that each state's DOT chooses the control cities. So I'm just wondering why CDOT should go ahead and choose a city in Kansas over Limon? If it wasn't Limon they'd probably choose Burlington because it's pretty obvious that they are not into choosing a city in Kansas. Hays is 160 miles into Kansas and not that big of a city sure it's bigger than Burlington and Limon but it's 160 miles into Kansas and not that big. Is Hays the next control city going east? I don't see any control cities at any of the interchanges east of Limon in Colorado.
This is in Kansas. I see they are styling the word Hays in Craig County fashion.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.326152,-101.7260829,3a,15y,15.28h,89.61t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sP6NIPnCXXDNtLEIbEUu0eQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DP6NIPnCXXDNtLEIbEUu0eQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D118.80223%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
You people that hate Limon as a control city will only partly hate this interchange.
All from the same interchange.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3663243,-101.2042551,3a,15y,40.1h,91.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sR59M_xSuJvv81N_wRl3VVA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3676854,-101.2041535,3a,15y,222.75h,87.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdDDSBoYwZacCgh_neTHJmA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 10, 2023, 08:39:30 AM
Man, how I love when people who live within 90 minutes of the Atlantic know what's best way out here.
If I was the one choosing the control cities I think I would go with Denver for WB and Topeka for EB but I understand Colorado not wanting to sign a city in Kansas when the first somewhat major stop along the route is Hays (160 miles into the state) but then again there isn't much and Burlington is bigger than Limon. I understand Limon though since it's a highway junction for the most part and a major stop along I-70 between Hays and Denver.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 10, 2023, 02:07:20 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 09, 2023, 11:27:49 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on April 09, 2023, 07:52:04 PM
Limon is fine as the middle line on a 3-line distance sign westbound. Probably eastbound too as kind of the last outpost.
The bottom line going east out of Denver should honestly be "Kansas border".
Control states are shit.
What else do you put on there? Hays? Topeka works I guess but is very far.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 10, 2023, 10:48:25 AM
It's well known that each state's DOT chooses the control cities. So I'm just wondering why CDOT should go ahead and choose a city in Kansas over Limon? If it wasn't Limon they'd probably choose Burlington because it's pretty obvious that they are not into choosing a city in Kansas. Hays is 160 miles into Kansas and not that big of a city sure it's bigger than Burlington and Limon but it's 160 miles into Kansas and not that big. Is Hays the next control city going east? I don't see any control cities at any of the interchanges east of Limon in Colorado.
This is in Kansas. I see they are styling the word Hays in Craig County fashion.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.326152,-101.7260829,3a,15y,15.28h,89.61t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sP6NIPnCXXDNtLEIbEUu0eQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DP6NIPnCXXDNtLEIbEUu0eQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D118.80223%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
Provincialism in control cities is the worst. It's what leads to Moorhead being used on I-94, East St. Louis on I-55, and Council Bluffs on I-80.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 10, 2023, 04:09:11 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 10, 2023, 02:07:20 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 09, 2023, 11:27:49 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on April 09, 2023, 07:52:04 PM
Limon is fine as the middle line on a 3-line distance sign westbound. Probably eastbound too as kind of the last outpost.
The bottom line going east out of Denver should honestly be "Kansas border".
Control states are shit.
What else do you put on there? Hays? Topeka works I guess but is very far.
So?
Are long-distance control cities not permitted? Seems far better than a small town.
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 10, 2023, 04:27:11 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 10, 2023, 04:09:11 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 10, 2023, 02:07:20 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 09, 2023, 11:27:49 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on April 09, 2023, 07:52:04 PM
Limon is fine as the middle line on a 3-line distance sign westbound. Probably eastbound too as kind of the last outpost.
The bottom line going east out of Denver should honestly be "Kansas border".
Control states are shit.
What else do you put on there? Hays? Topeka works I guess but is very far.
So?
Are long-distance control cities not permitted? Seems far better than a small town.
I think long distance control cities are appropriate as long as there is not an appropriate control city in between and we are keeping to the rule of at least one control city in each state.
542 miles between control cities however seems like a lot. South Dakota, which I consider a very good example of long distance control cities being acceptable, uses Sioux Falls and Rapid City with 340 miles between them. However both Hays and Selina are larger than Mitchell SD. Selina seems reasonable, as it is also a junction. Not sure about Hays. Selina to Denver is 435, still long, but not unreasonable.
Not all states in the west do the small town thing, so all the westerners saying that people in the east don't know what best for the interior west, take a look at North Dakota, which uses Billings west of Bismarck, and Arizona, which only signs big cities.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 10, 2023, 04:09:11 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 10, 2023, 02:07:20 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 09, 2023, 11:27:49 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on April 09, 2023, 07:52:04 PM
Limon is fine as the middle line on a 3-line distance sign westbound. Probably eastbound too as kind of the last outpost.
The bottom line going east out of Denver should honestly be "Kansas border".
Control states are shit.
What else do you put on there? Hays? Topeka works I guess but is very far.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 10, 2023, 10:48:25 AM
It's well known that each state's DOT chooses the control cities. So I'm just wondering why CDOT should go ahead and choose a city in Kansas over Limon? If it wasn't Limon they'd probably choose Burlington because it's pretty obvious that they are not into choosing a city in Kansas. Hays is 160 miles into Kansas and not that big of a city sure it's bigger than Burlington and Limon but it's 160 miles into Kansas and not that big. Is Hays the next control city going east? I don't see any control cities at any of the interchanges east of Limon in Colorado.
This is in Kansas. I see they are styling the word Hays in Craig County fashion.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.326152,-101.7260829,3a,15y,15.28h,89.61t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sP6NIPnCXXDNtLEIbEUu0eQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DP6NIPnCXXDNtLEIbEUu0eQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D118.80223%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
Provincialism in control cities is the worst. It's what leads to Moorhead being used on I-94, East St. Louis on I-55, and Council Bluffs on I-80.
All three of those cites that are on the border with a bigger city are big enough on their own really. In the case with Colorado there is nothing and I mean N-O-T-H-I-N-G in western Kansas that even makes any sense to be a control city over Limon or Burlington which should be the next control city after Limon really since we know CDOT wants to keep a Colorado city as long as possible which is fine with me.
Control cities are overrated. It's just a sign telling you the next city along the route pretty much. I think Michigan does control cities pretty damn good
I love that limon being a control city became sort of a meme.Westbound I think they have it because it's where us-24 splits from I-70 and goes to Colorado Springs. colorado e470 in aurora coming off I-76 should not be signed for Limon though. I guess everything goes to Limon in colorado.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 10, 2023, 06:44:07 PM
Control cities are overrated. It's just a sign telling you the next city along the route pretty much. I think Michigan does control cities pretty damn good
Amen. Roadgeeks obsess about these thing way more than the importance they actually have.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 10, 2023, 08:28:02 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 10, 2023, 06:44:07 PM
Control cities are overrated. It's just a sign telling you the next city along the route pretty much. I think Michigan does control cities pretty damn good
Amen. Roadgeeks obsess about these thing way more than the importance they actually have.
Says the guy who essentially called me a liar for posting a distance sign and calling it evidence of a control city
Every sign in Colorado, BGS or not, should include Limon. Everybody should know how far it is from every location to an exit for a highway that makes a beeline for Boise City, Oklahoma.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 10, 2023, 11:10:13 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 10, 2023, 08:28:02 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 10, 2023, 06:44:07 PM
Control cities are overrated. It's just a sign telling you the next city along the route pretty much. I think Michigan does control cities pretty damn good
Amen. Roadgeeks obsess about these thing way more than the importance they actually have.
Says the guy who essentially called me a liar for posting a distance sign and calling it evidence of a control city
Never said you were lying. Just wrong. And now weirdly obsessed about it too.
Live with it. Just like Highwaystar has to live with Baltimore and some have to live with Wilmington on the NJ Turnpike.
Limon is here to stay. Get used to it.
Quote from: MattCollopy on April 10, 2023, 07:50:32 PM
I love that limon being a control city became sort of a meme.Westbound I think they have it because it's where us-24 splits from I-70 and goes to Colorado Springs. colorado e470 in aurora coming off I-76 should not be signed for Limon though. I guess everything goes to Limon in colorado.
It makes perfect sense. You're probably not going to keep following 76 to Limon. Moist people would exit onto the e-fo-seven-dizzle, and follow that to 70 east.
Quote from: roadman65 on April 11, 2023, 05:13:10 AM
Live with it. Just like Highwaystar has to live with Baltimore and some have to live with Wilmington on the NJ Turnpike.
Limon is here to stay. Get used to it.
That could be used to shut down discussion about 90% of the forum, including any thread where we complain about speed limits and bad signage.
One thing to State your opinion, but to whine redundantly is way overboard.
If none of you people knew that Limon was a control city we wouldn't be having this discussion but for some reason Limon gets shot down by roadgeeks simply because it's not a big enough place? I've read up on control cities and one thing they mention is that there is not a limit on how big a place has to be in order to be a control city. Like I've said before Mackinac Bridge is a control city in Michigan, it's a bridge not a city and makes perfect sense as a control city, St. Ignace is used in the U.P. instead of Mackinac Bridge until you get to St. Ignace then Mackinac Bridge is used followed by Saginaw in the Lower Peninsula but St. Ignace is slightly bigger than Limon and pretty much a major stop on I-75 in the U.P.
But anyway Limon is fine as a control city, it's a known place in Colorado, it doesn't have to be known in New York or Massachusetts or Michigan but it is known in Colorado and considered a hub city in eastern Colorado due to the highway junction which is exactly why it's a control city, has nothing to do with the size of the community.
What's more odd is that KDOT is been using it west of Hays on I-70 as well. To me it would seem logical to go for Denver at that point or use Goodland Or Burlington for a reference point in Kansas, but I'm sure they have their reasons in the Sunflower State.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 11, 2023, 11:22:29 AM
If none of you people knew that Limon was a control city we wouldn't be having this discussion but for some reason Limon gets shot down by roadgeeks simply because it's not a big enough place? I've read up on control cities and one thing they mention is that there is not a limit on how big a place has to be in order to be a control city. Like I've said before Mackinac Bridge is a control city in Michigan, it's a bridge not a city and makes perfect sense as a control city, St. Ignace is used in the U.P. instead of Mackinac Bridge until you get to St. Ignace then Mackinac Bridge is used followed by Saginaw in the Lower Peninsula but St. Ignace is slightly bigger than Limon and pretty much a major stop on I-75 in the U.P.
I don't think the issue is size, it's the fact there's better control cities to use. I'm not arguing one way or another on the issue, I'm just pointing that out.
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 11, 2023, 11:31:02 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 11, 2023, 11:22:29 AM
If none of you people knew that Limon was a control city we wouldn't be having this discussion but for some reason Limon gets shot down by roadgeeks simply because it's not a big enough place? I've read up on control cities and one thing they mention is that there is not a limit on how big a place has to be in order to be a control city. Like I've said before Mackinac Bridge is a control city in Michigan, it's a bridge not a city and makes perfect sense as a control city, St. Ignace is used in the U.P. instead of Mackinac Bridge until you get to St. Ignace then Mackinac Bridge is used followed by Saginaw in the Lower Peninsula but St. Ignace is slightly bigger than Limon and pretty much a major stop on I-75 in the U.P.
I don't think the issue is size, it's the fact there's better control cities to use. I'm not arguing one way or another on the issue, I'm just pointing that out.
Like what? There really isn't anything out that way, the first city of any size in Kansas is Hays and that's 160 miles into the state. Burlington might be the only one that I could see that would make sense.
^ Topeka and Denver, long distance control cities.
That's where the vast majority of traffic on I-70 is bound. It's largely long-haul traffic.
At the very least, Denver should be used westbound on I-70 in the western part of Kansas, not Limon.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 11, 2023, 11:22:29 AM
If none of you people knew that Limon was a control city we wouldn't be having this discussion but for some reason Limon gets shot down by roadgeeks simply because it's not a big enough place? I've read up on control cities and one thing they mention is that there is not a limit on how big a place has to be in order to be a control city. Like I've said before Mackinac Bridge is a control city in Michigan, it's a bridge not a city and makes perfect sense as a control city, St. Ignace is used in the U.P. instead of Mackinac Bridge until you get to St. Ignace then Mackinac Bridge is used followed by Saginaw in the Lower Peninsula but St. Ignace is slightly bigger than Limon and pretty much a major stop on I-75 in the U.P.
But anyway Limon is fine as a control city, it's a known place in Colorado, it doesn't have to be known in New York or Massachusetts or Michigan but it is known in Colorado and considered a hub city in eastern Colorado due to the highway junction which is exactly why it's a control city, has nothing to do with the size of the community.
The Mackinac bridge is different from Limon because it is a major geographic feature that travelers know about. Limon is not. If North Dakota followed Colorado's rules, Dickinson would be signed on I-94 west of Bismarck, not Billings.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 06, 2023, 10:49:56 PM
To vote in an I-15 municipal election, is it enough to live in the Las Vegas area, or must I have my residence in the median?
General Information: (702) 455-VOTE (455-8683)
Toll Free: 1 (866) NVELECT (1-866-683-5328)
E-Mail Address: elinfo@ClarkCountyNV.gov
What gets me is the fact that Grand Junction is used for I-70 West from Denver which is all the way across the state. Using that rationale you figure Salina, KS would be used opposite it.
With Limon being used, on the other hand, Vail would be one to use heading west.
Vail is not a major highway junction.
Quote from: roadman65 on April 11, 2023, 03:09:39 PM
What gets me is the fact that Grand Junction is used for I-70 West from Denver which is all the way across the state. Using that rationale you figure Salina, KS would be used opposite it.
With Limon being used, on the other hand, Vail would be one to use heading west.
If we were picking a mountain town to use, I'd pick Silverthorne over Vail. The Silverthorne/Frisco/Dillon/Breckenridge area is quite a bit larger than Vail.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 11, 2023, 02:27:57 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 11, 2023, 11:22:29 AM
If none of you people knew that Limon was a control city we wouldn't be having this discussion but for some reason Limon gets shot down by roadgeeks simply because it's not a big enough place? I've read up on control cities and one thing they mention is that there is not a limit on how big a place has to be in order to be a control city. Like I've said before Mackinac Bridge is a control city in Michigan, it's a bridge not a city and makes perfect sense as a control city, St. Ignace is used in the U.P. instead of Mackinac Bridge until you get to St. Ignace then Mackinac Bridge is used followed by Saginaw in the Lower Peninsula but St. Ignace is slightly bigger than Limon and pretty much a major stop on I-75 in the U.P.
But anyway Limon is fine as a control city, it's a known place in Colorado, it doesn't have to be known in New York or Massachusetts or Michigan but it is known in Colorado and considered a hub city in eastern Colorado due to the highway junction which is exactly why it's a control city, has nothing to do with the size of the community.
The Mackinac bridge is different from Limon because it is a major geographic feature that travelers know about. Limon is not. If North Dakota followed Colorado's rules, Dickinson would be signed on I-94 west of Bismarck, not Billings.
I beg to differ, travelers in that part of the country know where Limon is.
Quote from: kphoger on April 11, 2023, 03:36:32 PM
Vail is not a major highway junction.
Vail is also way way way more famous than Limon.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 11, 2023, 07:53:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 11, 2023, 03:36:32 PM
Vail is not a major highway junction.
Vail is also way way way more famous than Limon.
That doesn't mean anything in regards to Limon being a control city on I-70.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 11, 2023, 09:09:48 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 11, 2023, 07:53:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 11, 2023, 03:36:32 PM
Vail is not a major highway junction.
Vail is also way way way more famous than Limon.
That doesn't mean anything in regards to Limon being a control city on I-70.
Of course it does. Control cities are meant to help people navigate. The city is useless if people don't know what the hell place the DOTs are talking about.
If Colorado was Texas, Topeka would be signed as is El Paso signed in San Antonio for I-10. El Paso is much further away from San Antonio than Topeka is from Denver.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 12, 2023, 02:26:17 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 11, 2023, 09:09:48 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 11, 2023, 07:53:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 11, 2023, 03:36:32 PM
Vail is not a major highway junction.
Vail is also way way way more famous than Limon.
That doesn't mean anything in regards to Limon being a control city on I-70.
Of course it does. Control cities are meant to help people navigate. The city is useless if people don't know what the hell place the DOTs are talking about.
People do know what they are talking about when it comes to Limon. What is so hard about realizing that Limon is a hub city in eastern Colorado and is fine as a control city? I don't see why someone that doesn't even live in the area has a problem with it.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 12, 2023, 07:11:11 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 12, 2023, 02:26:17 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 11, 2023, 09:09:48 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 11, 2023, 07:53:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 11, 2023, 03:36:32 PM
Vail is not a major highway junction.
Vail is also way way way more famous than Limon.
That doesn't mean anything in regards to Limon being a control city on I-70.
Of course it does. Control cities are meant to help people navigate. The city is useless if people don't know what the hell place the DOTs are talking about.
People do know what they are talking about when it comes to Limon. What is so hard about realizing that Limon is a hub city in eastern Colorado and is fine as a control city? I don't see why someone that doesn't even live in the area has a problem with it.
It's about who is driving those highways and who needs those control cities.
Locals may have tons of different references as they are more familiar with the area. They actually need less guidance anyway because of familiarity. Visitors and long haul traffic may be very different.
Honestly speaking, thanks to these discussions I no longer understand control cities role in the grand scheme of things.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 12, 2023, 07:11:11 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 12, 2023, 02:26:17 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 11, 2023, 09:09:48 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 11, 2023, 07:53:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 11, 2023, 03:36:32 PM
Vail is not a major highway junction.
Vail is also way way way more famous than Limon.
That doesn't mean anything in regards to Limon being a control city on I-70.
Of course it does. Control cities are meant to help people navigate. The city is useless if people don't know what the hell place the DOTs are talking about.
People do know what they are talking about when it comes to Limon. What is so hard about realizing that Limon is a hub city in eastern Colorado and is fine as a control city? I don't see why someone that doesn't even live in the area has a problem with it.
Isn't the purpose of control cities to guide
long distance traffic? If I was long haul, and not a member of this forum, I would have no idea what Limon is, but Denver I would.
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 12, 2023, 08:43:48 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 12, 2023, 07:11:11 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 12, 2023, 02:26:17 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 11, 2023, 09:09:48 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 11, 2023, 07:53:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 11, 2023, 03:36:32 PM
Vail is not a major highway junction.
Vail is also way way way more famous than Limon.
That doesn't mean anything in regards to Limon being a control city on I-70.
Of course it does. Control cities are meant to help people navigate. The city is useless if people don't know what the hell place the DOTs are talking about.
People do know what they are talking about when it comes to Limon. What is so hard about realizing that Limon is a hub city in eastern Colorado and is fine as a control city? I don't see why someone that doesn't even live in the area has a problem with it.
Isn't the purpose of control cities to guide long distance traffic? If I was long haul, and not a member of this forum, I would have no idea what Limon is, but Denver I would.
As a local traffic - say ~100 miles radius, I can definitely use control cities for more complex interchanges which I am not familiar with. Trip is short enough so I don't bother with directions, but I am not driving through that area to ooften. For example, toll road entrances past (now removed) toll booths can easily be confusing and less than logical as a lot of movements funneled into the same row of booths. Next thing you see past the booth is westbound traffic has to turn eastward and go on a flyover making a 270. And there is some 300 feet of road to choose the proper lane. That's where control cities help me a lot.
Control cities are a help, but in suburban areas with many cities lined up one right after another it can be confusing. That is why the Garden State Parkway in NJ didn't use them until recently.
The GSP picked Woodbridge from the Jersey Shore region NB despite both US 9 and NJ 35 paralleling it as its local use roads both using The Amboys as a NB control. That's cause Woodbridge is where both the NJ Turnpike and Garden State Parkway intersect and near Staten Island and a major highway hub over Perth Amboy next to it acting as a sort of gateway to Northern New Jersey and NYC.
Even the Delaware Memorial Bridge was a fine control as it was a crucial link between the Northeast highway network and the Mid Atlantic road network and people knew it connected NJ's turnpike with I-95 and either US 13 or 301 which are primary corridors to head further south from New Jersey which links at its other end major routes to New York, New England, and Canada.
Bottom line is control cities should be familiar points and not a small town like Limon over bigger Denver.
Quote from: roadman65 on April 12, 2023, 01:22:08 PM
Control cities are a help, but in suburban areas with many cities lined up one right after another it can be confusing. That is why the Garden State Parkway in NJ didn't use them until recently.
The GSP picked Woodbridge from the Jersey Shore region NB despite both US 9 and NJ 35 paralleling it as its local use roads both using The Amboys as a NB control. That's cause Woodbridge is where both the NJ Turnpike and Garden State Parkway intersect and near Staten Island and a major highway hub over Perth Amboy next to it acting as a sort of gateway to Northern New Jersey and NYC.
Even the Delaware Memorial Bridge was a fine control as it was a crucial link between the Northeast highway network and the Mid Atlantic road network and people knew it connected NJ's turnpike with I-95 and either US 13 or 301 which are primary corridors to head further south from New Jersey which links at its other end major routes to New York, New England, and Canada.
Bottom line is control cities should be familiar points and not a small town like Limon over bigger Denver.
Familiar points
to whom? What @JayhawkCO is saying, Limon is a familiar point locally. And I bet a lot of his Denver neighbors don't know where Delaware Memorial Bridge is (somewhere on east coast, maybe?)
Quote from: kalvado on April 12, 2023, 01:29:31 PM
And I bet a lot of his Denver neighbors don't know where Delaware Memorial Bridge is
It's the bridge to the state of Delaware, which people could easily guess (although it's somewhat "right for the wrong reasons" because the bridge is named after the river and not the state).
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 12, 2023, 02:26:17 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 11, 2023, 09:09:48 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 11, 2023, 07:53:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 11, 2023, 03:36:32 PM
Vail is not a major highway junction.
Vail is also way way way more famous than Limon.
That doesn't mean anything in regards to Limon being a control city on I-70.
Of course it does. Control cities are meant to help people navigate. The city is useless if people don't know what the hell place the DOTs are talking about.
No.
having heard of a place
≠ knowing where that place is or what highway goes there.
Yeah, plenty of people all over the country have heard of Vail, but that doesn't mean they know it's on I-70 west of Denver on the way to Utah. They just know it's in the Colorado Rockies somewhere.
I grew up in northwestern Kansas. At the time, I don't know that even I could have told you for sure just where Vail was. But everyone in the area sure as heck knew where Limon was, because that was the decision point for going to Denver or Colorado Springs. And any long-distance traveler heading to Colorado Springs from the east would certainly have it in his mind that Limon is where he needs to switch from I-70 to US-24. It makes very good sense as a control city for westbound traffic.
However, I'm far less sold on Limon's utility as a control city for
eastbound traffic. US-287 has less than half the traffic as US-24. It's useful as a decision point for traffic going to Amarillo, though, and I don't think there's a very good alternative control city anywhere between Limon and Hays.
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2023, 01:40:34 PM
Yeah, plenty of people all over the country have heard of Vail, but that doesn't mean they know it's on I-70 west of Denver on the way to Utah. They just know it's in the Colorado Rockies somewhere.
What about Wisconsin Dells, which
is used? (I would rather have neither than both.)
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2023, 01:43:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2023, 01:40:34 PM
Yeah, plenty of people all over the country have heard of Vail, but that doesn't mean they know it's on I-70 west of Denver on the way to Utah. They just know it's in the Colorado Rockies somewhere.
What about Wisconsin Dells, which is used? (I would rather have neither than both.)
Frankly, I think Wis Dells is a bad control city.
I spent my young childhood (through age eight) in the Chicago area, and then I lived there for seven years after college as well. The first time I drove up to Minnesota (probably 2003 or so), I thought,
Huh, so apparently the Wisconsin Dells are around here somewhere.It should be Tomah northbound, possibly doubled with Eau Claire, and just Madison southbound.
Quote from: kalvado on April 12, 2023, 01:29:31 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 12, 2023, 01:22:08 PM
Control cities are a help, but in suburban areas with many cities lined up one right after another it can be confusing. That is why the Garden State Parkway in NJ didn't use them until recently.
The GSP picked Woodbridge from the Jersey Shore region NB despite both US 9 and NJ 35 paralleling it as its local use roads both using The Amboys as a NB control. That's cause Woodbridge is where both the NJ Turnpike and Garden State Parkway intersect and near Staten Island and a major highway hub over Perth Amboy next to it acting as a sort of gateway to Northern New Jersey and NYC.
Even the Delaware Memorial Bridge was a fine control as it was a crucial link between the Northeast highway network and the Mid Atlantic road network and people knew it connected NJ's turnpike with I-95 and either US 13 or 301 which are primary corridors to head further south from New Jersey which links at its other end major routes to New York, New England, and Canada.
Bottom line is control cities should be familiar points and not a small town like Limon over bigger Denver.
Familiar points to whom?
What @JayhawkCO is saying, Limon is a familiar point locally. And I bet a lot of his Denver neighbors don't know where Delaware Memorial Bridge is (somewhere on east coast, maybe?)
To those familiar with the area. Many who live in Denver won't be using the NJ Turnpike as much as people on the east coast traveling I-70 in the Central US. The Delaware Memorial Bridge is familiar with the long haulers on the East Coast.
You're never going to get a perfect control city except maybe New York being most everyone knows it's the biggest US city, but if you're complaining about a bridge on the east coast you'll be happy to know the MUTCD forced New Jersey on its turnpike to use Wilmington instead of the crossing.
By the way, I think "Kansas" is fine on I-70 eastbound in Colorado. Unlike many other control states, it's valid for all of Kansas, at least as a first step (e.g. for Dodge City or Wichita, you'll be on I-70 for the first part of the journey). This is unlike New Hampshire's use of "To All Maine Points" on I-95 where NH 16 splits and some of the inland areas of Maine are better reached by ignoring the Maine sign and getting on NH 16. I'm not that familiar with Illinois's control states, but I believe they're even worse in this regard than NH's signing of Maine.
My own preference is for two control cities, one smaller and one bigger. So I'd prefer seeing Denver all the way from Kansas City, with smaller ones listed underneath (Topeka, Salina, Hays, Limon); Kansas City all the way from Denver, with smaller ones listed underneath.
One thing I must admit, Limon is not as bad as Plymouth Meeting used by PennDOT on I-476 NB between Chester and Plymouth Meeting.
Who the heck knows where Plymouth Meeting is?
Quote from: roadman65 on April 12, 2023, 01:56:42 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 12, 2023, 01:29:31 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 12, 2023, 01:22:08 PM
Control cities are a help, but in suburban areas with many cities lined up one right after another it can be confusing. That is why the Garden State Parkway in NJ didn't use them until recently.
The GSP picked Woodbridge from the Jersey Shore region NB despite both US 9 and NJ 35 paralleling it as its local use roads both using The Amboys as a NB control. That's cause Woodbridge is where both the NJ Turnpike and Garden State Parkway intersect and near Staten Island and a major highway hub over Perth Amboy next to it acting as a sort of gateway to Northern New Jersey and NYC.
Even the Delaware Memorial Bridge was a fine control as it was a crucial link between the Northeast highway network and the Mid Atlantic road network and people knew it connected NJ's turnpike with I-95 and either US 13 or 301 which are primary corridors to head further south from New Jersey which links at its other end major routes to New York, New England, and Canada.
Bottom line is control cities should be familiar points and not a small town like Limon over bigger Denver.
Familiar points to whom?
What @JayhawkCO is saying, Limon is a familiar point locally. And I bet a lot of his Denver neighbors don't know where Delaware Memorial Bridge is (somewhere on east coast, maybe?)
To those familiar with the area. Many who live in Denver won't be using the NJ Turnpike as much as people on the east coast traveling I-70 in the Central US. The Delaware Memorial Bridge is familiar with the long haulers on the East Coast.
You're never going to get a perfect control city except maybe New York being most everyone knows it's the biggest US city, but if you're complaining about a bridge on the east coast you'll be happy to know the MUTCD forced New Jersey on its turnpike to use Wilmington instead of the crossing.
I would say MSAs with 2M people or more are no-brainers - that's 35 points. Most of them are on the coast, though. Drop the threshold to 1M, and there are 20 more - possibly less known.
And looks like this thread significantly reflects on that - those closer to oceans are used to bigger cities, while further inland people look at things a bit different.
Quote from: roadman65 on April 12, 2023, 01:56:42 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 12, 2023, 01:29:31 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 12, 2023, 01:22:08 PM
Control cities are a help, but in suburban areas with many cities lined up one right after another it can be confusing. That is why the Garden State Parkway in NJ didn't use them until recently.
The GSP picked Woodbridge from the Jersey Shore region NB despite both US 9 and NJ 35 paralleling it as its local use roads both using The Amboys as a NB control. That's cause Woodbridge is where both the NJ Turnpike and Garden State Parkway intersect and near Staten Island and a major highway hub over Perth Amboy next to it acting as a sort of gateway to Northern New Jersey and NYC.
Even the Delaware Memorial Bridge was a fine control as it was a crucial link between the Northeast highway network and the Mid Atlantic road network and people knew it connected NJ's turnpike with I-95 and either US 13 or 301 which are primary corridors to head further south from New Jersey which links at its other end major routes to New York, New England, and Canada.
Bottom line is control cities should be familiar points and not a small town like Limon over bigger Denver.
Familiar points to whom?
What @JayhawkCO is saying, Limon is a familiar point locally. And I bet a lot of his Denver neighbors don't know where Delaware Memorial Bridge is (somewhere on east coast, maybe?)
To those familiar with the area. Many who live in Denver won't be using the NJ Turnpike as much as people on the east coast traveling I-70 in the Central US. The Delaware Memorial Bridge is familiar with the long haulers on the East Coast.
You're never going to get a perfect control city except maybe New York being most everyone knows it's the biggest US city, but if you're complaining about a bridge on the east coast you'll be happy to know the MUTCD forced New Jersey on its turnpike to use Wilmington instead of the crossing.
Oh, and with that approach you have no right to complain about Limon if someone from CO tells you "it is good enough for us"... Just your own logic! :)
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2023, 01:55:32 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2023, 01:43:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2023, 01:40:34 PM
Yeah, plenty of people all over the country have heard of Vail, but that doesn't mean they know it's on I-70 west of Denver on the way to Utah. They just know it's in the Colorado Rockies somewhere.
What about Wisconsin Dells, which is used? (I would rather have neither than both.)
Frankly, I think Wis Dells is a bad control city.
I spent my young childhood (through age eight) in the Chicago area, and then I lived there for seven years after college as well. The first time I drove up to Minnesota (probably 2003 or so), I thought, Huh, so apparently the Wisconsin Dells are around here somewhere.
It should be Tomah northbound, possibly doubled with Eau Claire, and just Madison southbound.
No, the Dells are much more known, and a larger destination than Tomah.
Who's complaining. I'm just stating my opinion, but mostly addressing others who complain about Limon, which there are a few just like some don't like other choices in other states and are vocal about it from time to time.
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2023, 02:03:26 PM
By the way, I think "Kansas" is fine on I-70 eastbound in Colorado. Unlike many other control states, it's valid for all of Kansas, at least as a first step (e.g. for Dodge City or Wichita, you'll be on I-70 for the first part of the journey). This is unlike New Hampshire's use of "To All Maine Points" on I-95 where NH 16 splits and some of the inland areas of Maine are better reached by ignoring the Maine sign and getting on NH 16. I'm not that familiar with Illinois's control states, but I believe they're even worse in this regard than NH's signing of Maine.
Whenever someone brings up control states, a bunch of users always raid the thread with cries of AH I HATE CONTROL STATES :banghead: without actually giving an explanation to why they hate them.
Quote from: roadman65 on April 12, 2023, 05:57:16 PM
Who's complaining. I'm just stating my opinion, but mostly addressing others who complain about Limon, which there are a few just like some don't like other choices in other states and are vocal about it from time to time.
I think some users are missing this point... just because we point out our opinion or state an opposing viewpoint, we're not "complaining" . It doesn't -bother- me that Limon is signed, I personally couldn't care that much - I'm just simply stating my opinion on it when it's brought up.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 12, 2023, 08:06:54 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2023, 02:03:26 PM
By the way, I think "Kansas" is fine on I-70 eastbound in Colorado. Unlike many other control states, it's valid for all of Kansas, at least as a first step (e.g. for Dodge City or Wichita, you'll be on I-70 for the first part of the journey). This is unlike New Hampshire's use of "To All Maine Points" on I-95 where NH 16 splits and some of the inland areas of Maine are better reached by ignoring the Maine sign and getting on NH 16. I'm not that familiar with Illinois's control states, but I believe they're even worse in this regard than NH's signing of Maine.
Whenever someone brings up control states, a bunch of users always raid the thread with cries of AH I HATE CONTROL STATES :banghead: without actually giving an explanation to why they hate them.
Because they're not specific. When you are within 10 miles of the Illinois/Indiana state line, where, exactly, in Indiana are you heading? Gary? Indianapolis? Evansville?
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 12, 2023, 09:52:03 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 12, 2023, 08:06:54 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2023, 02:03:26 PM
By the way, I think "Kansas" is fine on I-70 eastbound in Colorado. Unlike many other control states, it's valid for all of Kansas, at least as a first step (e.g. for Dodge City or Wichita, you'll be on I-70 for the first part of the journey). This is unlike New Hampshire's use of "To All Maine Points" on I-95 where NH 16 splits and some of the inland areas of Maine are better reached by ignoring the Maine sign and getting on NH 16. I'm not that familiar with Illinois's control states, but I believe they're even worse in this regard than NH's signing of Maine.
Whenever someone brings up control states, a bunch of users always raid the thread with cries of AH I HATE CONTROL STATES :banghead: without actually giving an explanation to why they hate them.
Because they're not specific. When you are within 10 miles of the Illinois/Indiana state line, where, exactly, in Indiana are you heading? Gary? Indianapolis? Evansville?
I can agree that state lines should not be control cities, a state line is not really a destination, but a waypoint.
However, I would be a fan of making all state lines a mandatory 2nd tier on millage signs.
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2023, 01:31:38 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 12, 2023, 01:29:31 PM
And I bet a lot of his Denver neighbors don't know where Delaware Memorial Bridge is
It's the bridge to the state of Delaware, which people could easily guess (although it's somewhat "right for the wrong reasons" because the bridge is named after the river and not the state).
So if I'm already in Delaware, taking the Delaware Memorial Bridge takes me to Delaware?
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 12, 2023, 09:52:03 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 12, 2023, 08:06:54 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2023, 02:03:26 PM
By the way, I think "Kansas" is fine on I-70 eastbound in Colorado. Unlike many other control states, it's valid for all of Kansas, at least as a first step (e.g. for Dodge City or Wichita, you'll be on I-70 for the first part of the journey). This is unlike New Hampshire's use of "To All Maine Points" on I-95 where NH 16 splits and some of the inland areas of Maine are better reached by ignoring the Maine sign and getting on NH 16. I'm not that familiar with Illinois's control states, but I believe they're even worse in this regard than NH's signing of Maine.
Whenever someone brings up control states, a bunch of users always raid the thread with cries of AH I HATE CONTROL STATES :banghead: without actually giving an explanation to why they hate them.
Because they're not specific. When you are within 10 miles of the Illinois/Indiana state line, where, exactly, in Indiana are you heading? Gary? Indianapolis? Evansville?
I don't support what Chicago does. But in rare situations, a state does make sense. On I-70 in Colorado, you are going towards Kansas. Anywhere in Kansas would use I-70 for at least part of the route coming from Denver. With no better options, I would be fine with Kansas. I also didn't mind "NH/Maine" for I-95 north. It's clear that for all destinations in those states, taking I-95 or I-495 north is the best move, and the states proper are more famous than any city in said states.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 12, 2023, 08:06:54 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2023, 02:03:26 PM
By the way, I think "Kansas" is fine on I-70 eastbound in Colorado. Unlike many other control states, it's valid for all of Kansas, at least as a first step (e.g. for Dodge City or Wichita, you'll be on I-70 for the first part of the journey). This is unlike New Hampshire's use of "To All Maine Points" on I-95 where NH 16 splits and some of the inland areas of Maine are better reached by ignoring the Maine sign and getting on NH 16. I'm not that familiar with Illinois's control states, but I believe they're even worse in this regard than NH's signing of Maine.
Whenever someone brings up control states, a bunch of users always raid the thread with cries of AH I HATE CONTROL STATES :banghead: without actually giving an explanation to why they hate them.
Because they are functionally useless for navigation purposes.
Let's say we live in a universe where there are no control cities, only control states.
You're driving I-35 southbound into Oklahoma City. You come to the exit for I-40 east, Arkansas. All good so far. Now, staying on I-35 south, you merge onto westbound I-40. Your options are I-35 south, Texas, and I-40 west, Texas. You decide to go west on I-40 through downtown, toward Texas. In a few dozen miles, your options will be I-40 west, Texas; I-44 west, Texas; and I-44 east, Missouri.
Obviously it would be ludicrous to sign the Oklahoma highway system this way. But it would be entirely accurate, it just overlooks the fact that despite the fact that Dallas, Wichita Falls, and Amarillo are all in Texas, they are nowhere near one another, and not all routes that lead to those places will bring you to your intended destination, just a point that happens to be in the same state.
Likewise, following I-70 eastbound out of Denver will eventually bring you to Kansas, but staying on it until you enter Kansas is not necessarily the best route to all points in Kansas.
Only roadgeeks would be anal to the point of making a multi-page debate on an April Fools thread.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 11, 2023, 07:53:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 11, 2023, 03:36:32 PM
Vail is not a major highway junction.
Vail is also way way way more famous than Limon.
I can think of like 100 very famous people that live in Limon. Probably going to continue living there for a long time.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2023, 12:42:29 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 12, 2023, 09:52:03 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 12, 2023, 08:06:54 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2023, 02:03:26 PM
By the way, I think "Kansas" is fine on I-70 eastbound in Colorado. Unlike many other control states, it's valid for all of Kansas, at least as a first step (e.g. for Dodge City or Wichita, you'll be on I-70 for the first part of the journey). This is unlike New Hampshire's use of "To All Maine Points" on I-95 where NH 16 splits and some of the inland areas of Maine are better reached by ignoring the Maine sign and getting on NH 16. I'm not that familiar with Illinois's control states, but I believe they're even worse in this regard than NH's signing of Maine.
Whenever someone brings up control states, a bunch of users always raid the thread with cries of AH I HATE CONTROL STATES :banghead: without actually giving an explanation to why they hate them.
Because they're not specific. When you are within 10 miles of the Illinois/Indiana state line, where, exactly, in Indiana are you heading? Gary? Indianapolis? Evansville?
I don't support what Chicago does. But in rare situations, a state does make sense. On I-70 in Colorado, you are going towards Kansas. Anywhere in Kansas would use I-70 for at least part of the route coming from Denver. With no better options, I would be fine with Kansas. I also didn't mind "NH/Maine" for I-95 north. It's clear that for all destinations in those states, taking I-95 or I-495 north is the best move, and the states proper are more famous than any city in said states.
You're right. Anyone heading to Kansas would use I-70 for part of their travels. They'd use it at least as far as
Limon where they'd have to make a decision, right?
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 12, 2023, 09:52:03 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 12, 2023, 08:06:54 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2023, 02:03:26 PM
By the way, I think "Kansas" is fine on I-70 eastbound in Colorado. Unlike many other control states, it's valid for all of Kansas, at least as a first step (e.g. for Dodge City or Wichita, you'll be on I-70 for the first part of the journey). This is unlike New Hampshire's use of "To All Maine Points" on I-95 where NH 16 splits and some of the inland areas of Maine are better reached by ignoring the Maine sign and getting on NH 16. I'm not that familiar with Illinois's control states, but I believe they're even worse in this regard than NH's signing of Maine.
Whenever someone brings up control states, a bunch of users always raid the thread with cries of AH I HATE CONTROL STATES :banghead: without actually giving an explanation to why they hate them.
Because they're not specific. When you are within 10 miles of the Illinois/Indiana state line, where, exactly, in Indiana are you heading? Gary? Indianapolis? Evansville?
If you are on the Tri-State Tollway, you are either headed in the general direction of Wisconsin or Indiana. It makes perfect sense considering the highway ends within a few miles of either border. They are always paired with one other so people who are directionally confused understand that taking one ramp gets you in the general direction of one, while taking another gets you in the general direction of another.
And ironically, if you are on the Tri-State and heading to Gary, Indianapolis or Evansville, you would go to Indiana before making your next route change anyway.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 12, 2023, 05:55:42 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2023, 01:55:32 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2023, 01:43:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2023, 01:40:34 PM
Yeah, plenty of people all over the country have heard of Vail, but that doesn't mean they know it's on I-70 west of Denver on the way to Utah. They just know it's in the Colorado Rockies somewhere.
What about Wisconsin Dells, which is used? (I would rather have neither than both.)
Frankly, I think Wis Dells is a bad control city.
I spent my young childhood (through age eight) in the Chicago area, and then I lived there for seven years after college as well. The first time I drove up to Minnesota (probably 2003 or so), I thought, Huh, so apparently the Wisconsin Dells are around here somewhere.
It should be Tomah northbound, possibly doubled with Eau Claire, and just Madison southbound.
No, the Dells are much more known, and a larger destination than Tomah.
Wow, I'm surprised Wisconsin Dells is actually the name of a city. I thought it was just the name of a region.
We made quite a leap in logic here . . .
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2023, 01:26:21 AM
Let's say we live in a universe where there are no control cities, only control states.
Is not valid justification for control states
never existing in
any cases.
Control cities are case-by-case. Any mention of "always" or "never" or "only" is an automatic no for me.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 13, 2023, 08:41:04 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2023, 12:42:29 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 12, 2023, 09:52:03 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 12, 2023, 08:06:54 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2023, 02:03:26 PM
By the way, I think "Kansas" is fine on I-70 eastbound in Colorado. Unlike many other control states, it's valid for all of Kansas, at least as a first step (e.g. for Dodge City or Wichita, you'll be on I-70 for the first part of the journey). This is unlike New Hampshire's use of "To All Maine Points" on I-95 where NH 16 splits and some of the inland areas of Maine are better reached by ignoring the Maine sign and getting on NH 16. I'm not that familiar with Illinois's control states, but I believe they're even worse in this regard than NH's signing of Maine.
Whenever someone brings up control states, a bunch of users always raid the thread with cries of AH I HATE CONTROL STATES :banghead: without actually giving an explanation to why they hate them.
Because they're not specific. When you are within 10 miles of the Illinois/Indiana state line, where, exactly, in Indiana are you heading? Gary? Indianapolis? Evansville?
I don't support what Chicago does. But in rare situations, a state does make sense. On I-70 in Colorado, you are going towards Kansas. Anywhere in Kansas would use I-70 for at least part of the route coming from Denver. With no better options, I would be fine with Kansas. I also didn't mind "NH/Maine" for I-95 north. It's clear that for all destinations in those states, taking I-95 or I-495 north is the best move, and the states proper are more famous than any city in said states.
You're right. Anyone heading to Kansas would use I-70 for part of their travels. They'd use it at least as far as Limon where they'd have to make a decision, right?
I've always said that Limon is alright eastbound due to the lack of good options. It's westbound where I have a big problem, with Denver 90 miles up the road.
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2023, 01:55:32 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2023, 01:43:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2023, 01:40:34 PM
Yeah, plenty of people all over the country have heard of Vail, but that doesn't mean they know it's on I-70 west of Denver on the way to Utah. They just know it's in the Colorado Rockies somewhere.
What about Wisconsin Dells, which is used? (I would rather have neither than both.)
Frankly, I think Wis Dells is a bad control city.
I spent my young childhood (through age eight) in the Chicago area, and then I lived there for seven years after college as well. The first time I drove up to Minnesota (probably 2003 or so), I thought, Huh, so apparently the Wisconsin Dells are around here somewhere.
It should be Tomah northbound, possibly doubled with Eau Claire, and just Madison southbound.
Wisconsin Dells is far more well known than Tomah by Wisconsinites, Midwesterners, and national travelers alike. I honestly haven't met a single person from Madison who knows where Tomah is, beyond "it's far, isn't it?"
Quote from: thspfc on April 13, 2023, 10:09:25 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2023, 01:55:32 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2023, 01:43:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2023, 01:40:34 PM
Yeah, plenty of people all over the country have heard of Vail, but that doesn't mean they know it's on I-70 west of Denver on the way to Utah. They just know it's in the Colorado Rockies somewhere.
What about Wisconsin Dells, which is used? (I would rather have neither than both.)
Frankly, I think Wis Dells is a bad control city.
I spent my young childhood (through age eight) in the Chicago area, and then I lived there for seven years after college as well. The first time I drove up to Minnesota (probably 2003 or so), I thought, Huh, so apparently the Wisconsin Dells are around here somewhere.
It should be Tomah northbound, possibly doubled with Eau Claire, and just Madison southbound.
Wisconsin Dells is far more well known than Tomah by Wisconsinites, Midwesterners, and national travelers alike. I honestly haven't met a single person from Madison who knows where Tomah is, beyond "it's far, isn't it?"
I'd rather use Minneapolis than Tomah.
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2023, 01:40:34 PM
It makes very good sense as a control city for westbound traffic.
However, I'm far less sold on Limon's utility as a control city for eastbound traffic.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2023, 10:08:33 AM
I've always said that Limon is alright eastbound due to the lack of good options. It's westbound where I have a big problem, with Denver 90 miles up the road.
I think we may have reached an impasse...
Quote from: kphoger on April 13, 2023, 10:31:29 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2023, 01:40:34 PM
It makes very good sense as a control city for westbound traffic.
However, I'm far less sold on Limon's utility as a control city for eastbound traffic.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2023, 10:08:33 AM
I've always said that Limon is alright eastbound due to the lack of good options. It's westbound where I have a big problem, with Denver 90 miles up the road.
I think we may have reached an impasse...
If Colorado Springs is such an important turn off, sign Denver/Colorado Springs instead of Limon.
At first glance, I'd prefer Eau Claire or even Saint Paul. However, traffic following I-90 west from Chicago isn't going to either of those cities. They're only useful for I-94 traffic.
Quote from: kphoger on April 13, 2023, 10:33:58 AM
At first glance, I'd prefer Eau Claire or even Saint Paul. However, traffic following I-90 west from Chicago isn't going to either of those cities. They're only useful for I-94 traffic.
Control City Freak suggested using "Minnesota" because both I-90 and I-94 go there, but some of the forum would freak out if they heard that.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2023, 10:35:00 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 13, 2023, 10:33:58 AM
At first glance, I'd prefer Eau Claire or even Saint Paul. However, traffic following I-90 west from Chicago isn't going to either of those cities. They're only useful for I-94 traffic.
Control City Freak suggested using "Minnesota" because both I-90 and I-94 go there, but some of the forum would freak out if they heard that.
I think Minnesota could work (if you're before the 90/94 split, you'll want to go to at least the split for all parts of Minnesota), but doing so leaves out Eau Claire which is before the state line.
Quote from: 1 on April 13, 2023, 10:44:53 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2023, 10:35:00 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 13, 2023, 10:33:58 AM
At first glance, I'd prefer Eau Claire or even Saint Paul. However, traffic following I-90 west from Chicago isn't going to either of those cities. They're only useful for I-94 traffic.
Control City Freak suggested using "Minnesota" because both I-90 and I-94 go there, but some of the forum would freak out if they heard that.
I think Minnesota could work (if you're before the 90/94 split, you'll want to go to at least the split for all parts of Minnesota), but doing so leaves out Eau Claire which is before the state line.
and La Crosse for I-90
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 12, 2023, 08:06:54 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2023, 02:03:26 PM
By the way, I think "Kansas" is fine on I-70 eastbound in Colorado. Unlike many other control states, it's valid for all of Kansas, at least as a first step (e.g. for Dodge City or Wichita, you'll be on I-70 for the first part of the journey). This is unlike New Hampshire's use of "To All Maine Points" on I-95 where NH 16 splits and some of the inland areas of Maine are better reached by ignoring the Maine sign and getting on NH 16. I'm not that familiar with Illinois's control states, but I believe they're even worse in this regard than NH's signing of Maine.
Whenever someone brings up control states, a bunch of users always raid the thread with cries of AH I HATE CONTROL STATES :banghead: without actually giving an explanation to why they hate them.
Being from New Jersey, where neighboring Delaware, New York, and Pennsylvania like to sign all roads into our state with a New Jersey instead of recognizing that we have cities too, I'm against it.
"Minnesota" is used on I-90 in the La Crosse area.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 13, 2023, 02:43:52 PM
"Minnesota" is used on I-90 in the La Crosse area.
Example: https://goo.gl/maps/MmgBmc42UanWjMC66
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 13, 2023, 02:43:52 PM
"Minnesota" is used on I-90 in the La Crosse area.
BuT wHaT iF tHeY tHiNk ThEy ArE gOiNg To MiNnEaPoLiS?
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 13, 2023, 03:18:03 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 13, 2023, 02:43:52 PM
"Minnesota" is used on I-90 in the La Crosse area.
BuT wHaT iF tHeY tHiNk ThEy ArE gOiNg To MiNnEaPoLiS?
I-90 to US 52. It still works.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 13, 2023, 03:18:03 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 13, 2023, 02:43:52 PM
"Minnesota" is used on I-90 in the La Crosse area.
BuT wHaT iF tHeY tHiNk ThEy ArE gOiNg To MiNnEaPoLiS?
TheY wILl End uP hERe:
(https://photos1.blogger.com/img/177/3509/640/county%20sign.jpg)
How is one meant to read the plaque underneath at speed?
Quote from: kirbykart on April 13, 2023, 05:31:00 PM
How is one meant to read the plaque underneath at speed?
Quickly.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 13, 2023, 02:43:52 PM
"Minnesota" is used on I-90 in the La Crosse area.
They really don't want to use Rochester
Quote from: thspfc on April 13, 2023, 10:03:35 AM
We made quite a leap in logic here . . .
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2023, 01:26:21 AM
Let's say we live in a universe where there are no control cities, only control states.
Is not valid justification for control states never existing in any cases.
Control cities are case-by-case. Any mention of "always" or "never" or "only" is an automatic no for me.
The point is that if you're picking cities, you have more flexibility to avoid ambiguity than if you're picking states.
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 13, 2023, 10:21:54 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2023, 07:50:17 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 13, 2023, 02:43:52 PM
"Minnesota" is used on I-90 in the La Crosse area.
They really don't want to use Rochester
Don't tell HighwayStar.
Highway star would hate control city freak. His ideal control cities for I-95 north in South Carolina? Charleston and Columbia.
HighwayStar said Rochester for I-90 in Minnesota would be somewhat acceptable because there are no good options at all. Remember that he also hates tiny control cities. (This might have applied eastbound only given Sioux Falls to the west, but I don't remember.)
I could see Limon growing bigger if the US 287 corridor between there and Amarillo is made into a freeway (northern extension of I-27?) or at least a four-lane - thus creating an expressway connection between Denver and Dallas - as I've seen rumors about on the forum from time to time. If that were to happen, then I suppose Limon would actually work as a control city. Anyway, what do you think?
Quote from: 1 on April 14, 2023, 05:41:30 AM
HighwayStar said Rochester for I-90 in Minnesota would be somewhat acceptable because there are no good options at all. Remember that he also hates tiny control cities. (This might have applied eastbound only given Sioux Falls to the west, but I don't remember.)
Not sure if the second sentence was referring to me, but I don't hate tiny control cities, there are times and places where they are the right decision.
Rochester on I-90 in Minnesota is definitely an edge case of no clear contender, and because of my minimum of 1 control city per state rule its not possible to skip to WI from SD.
Quote from: KCRoadFan on April 14, 2023, 09:11:58 AM. Anyway, what do you think?
I think this isn't going to happen until at least 2050.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 14, 2023, 05:36:42 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 13, 2023, 10:21:54 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2023, 07:50:17 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 13, 2023, 02:43:52 PM
"Minnesota" is used on I-90 in the La Crosse area.
They really don't want to use Rochester
Don't tell HighwayStar.
Highway star would hate control city freak. His ideal control cities for I-95 north in South Carolina? Charleston and Columbia.
Okay, these genuinely don't make any sense. Neither are remotely close to or served by I-95. I-70 east in Maryland, traffic is pointed due east towards the Baltimore suburbs, I-90 traffic is pointed west towards the outer edges of Rochester, MN...
On I-95 in South Carolina, it doesn't get within 50 miles to either city. Florence would be / is an appropriate control.
If I had to choose the control cities on I-95 in SC I would go with
SB: Florence, Savannah.
NB: Florence, Fayetteville
Using Columbia and Charleston makes no sense at all.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2023, 01:26:21 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 12, 2023, 08:06:54 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2023, 02:03:26 PM
By the way, I think "Kansas" is fine on I-70 eastbound in Colorado. Unlike many other control states, it's valid for all of Kansas, at least as a first step (e.g. for Dodge City or Wichita, you'll be on I-70 for the first part of the journey). This is unlike New Hampshire's use of "To All Maine Points" on I-95 where NH 16 splits and some of the inland areas of Maine are better reached by ignoring the Maine sign and getting on NH 16. I'm not that familiar with Illinois's control states, but I believe they're even worse in this regard than NH's signing of Maine.
Whenever someone brings up control states, a bunch of users always raid the thread with cries of AH I HATE CONTROL STATES :banghead: without actually giving an explanation to why they hate them.
Because they are functionally useless for navigation purposes.
Let's say we live in a universe where there are no control cities, only control states.
You're driving I-35 southbound into Oklahoma City. You come to the exit for I-40 east, Arkansas. All good so far. Now, staying on I-35 south, you merge onto westbound I-40. Your options are I-35 south, Texas, and I-40 west, Texas. You decide to go west on I-40 through downtown, toward Texas. In a few dozen miles, your options will be I-40 west, Texas; I-44 west, Texas; and I-44 east, Missouri.
Obviously it would be ludicrous to sign the Oklahoma highway system this way. But it would be entirely accurate, it just overlooks the fact that despite the fact that Dallas, Wichita Falls, and Amarillo are all in Texas, they are nowhere near one another, and not all routes that lead to those places will bring you to your intended destination, just a point that happens to be in the same state.
Likewise, following I-70 eastbound out of Denver will eventually bring you to Kansas, but staying on it until you enter Kansas is not necessarily the best route to all points in Kansas.
Likewise it would be like Michigan signing Indiana for both I-69 and I-94 when they enter Indiana nowhere near each other.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 14, 2023, 11:43:11 AM
If I had to choose the control cities on I-95 in SC I would go with
SB: Florence, Savannah.
NB: Florence, Fayetteville
Using Columbia and Charleston makes no sense at all.
His logic is to use Charleston until the US 17 exit, as Charleston is a big city and lots of people are going there, and use Columbia until I-26 as it's angling that way or something. He also says that Raleigh should be used on I-95 in North Carolina. He hates small cities being used. You know what I wouldn't mind being used instead of Florence? Washington DC.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 14, 2023, 12:47:08 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 14, 2023, 11:43:11 AM
If I had to choose the control cities on I-95 in SC I would go with
SB: Florence, Savannah.
NB: Florence, Fayetteville
Using Columbia and Charleston makes no sense at all.
His logic is to use Charleston until the US 17 exit, as Charleston is a big city and lots of people are going there, and use Columbia until I-26 as it's angling that way or something. He also says that Raleigh should be used on I-95 in North Carolina. He hates small cities being used. You know what I wouldn't mind being used instead of Florence? Washington DC.
Richmond is a big city in Virginia and the state capital.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 14, 2023, 12:51:58 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 14, 2023, 12:47:08 PM
You know what I wouldn't mind being used instead of Florence? Washington DC.
Richmond is a big city in Virginia and the state capital.
I was about to type the name of another city that shouldn't be skipped (Fayetteville), but you beat me to it as I was multitasking.
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 14, 2023, 12:51:58 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 14, 2023, 12:47:08 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 14, 2023, 11:43:11 AM
If I had to choose the control cities on I-95 in SC I would go with
SB: Florence, Savannah.
NB: Florence, Fayetteville
Using Columbia and Charleston makes no sense at all.
His logic is to use Charleston until the US 17 exit, as Charleston is a big city and lots of people are going there, and use Columbia until I-26 as it's angling that way or something. He also says that Raleigh should be used on I-95 in North Carolina. He hates small cities being used. You know what I wouldn't mind being used instead of Florence? Washington DC.
Richmond is a big city in Virginia and the state capital.
I'm totally fine with Richmond being a control citiy. But from that far out I'd be ok with occasionally signing DC as many travelers go from Florida to the Northeast. Maybe as the bottom line of mileage signs. Went back and looked at my plans, I had Florence, Fayetteville, and Richmond, skipping the Benson/Dunn mess and Rocky Mount, though I'm more ok with Rocky Mount.
If it weren't for Control City Freak, would the topic of Limon, CO as a control city even be a discussion topic, much less having so many posts? "Todd" of Control City Freak should be given an award from the Limon Chamber of Commerce for having made the town so famous.
Quote from: RoadWarrior56 on April 14, 2023, 01:27:03 PM
If it weren't for Control City Freak, would the topic of Limon, CO as a control city even be a discussion topic, much less having so many posts? "Todd" of Control City Freak should be given an award from the Limon Chamber of Commerce for having made the town so famous.
YouTube channel: Joined April 22, 2021
2012 mention of Limon as a control city (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3658.msg171978#msg171978)
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2023, 07:50:17 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 13, 2023, 02:43:52 PM
"Minnesota" is used on I-90 in the La Crosse area.
They really don't want to use Rochester
Even within Minnesota, MnDOT refers to Rochester as "Rochester Exit" on second-line mentions.
Quote from: KCRoadFan on April 14, 2023, 09:11:58 AM
I could see Limon growing bigger if the US 287 corridor between there and Amarillo is made into a freeway (northern extension of I-27?) or at least a four-lane - thus creating an expressway connection between Denver and Dallas - as I've seen rumors about on the forum from time to time. If that were to happen, then I suppose Limon would actually work as a control city. Anyway, what do you think?
I could see Limon growing bigger by about eleven residents. Maybe.
But probably not.
Quote from: 1 on April 14, 2023, 12:55:08 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 14, 2023, 12:51:58 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 14, 2023, 12:47:08 PM
You know what I wouldn't mind being used instead of Florence? Washington DC.
Richmond is a big city in Virginia and the state capital.
I was about to type the name of another city that shouldn't be skipped (Fayetteville), but you beat me to it as I was multitasking.
I agree with Fayetteville as the home of Fort Bragg and has a city population of over 200,000 and a metro population of over 500,000. Washington, DC shouldn't and I believe isn't used until Richmond. I'll make someone mad and say they should use Fredericksburg for a control city on I-95 north of Richmond lol.
Fredericksburg is not used like Olympia, WA isn't on I-5 from Portland or Seattle.
Limon is such a good control city it appears as an example in the MUTCD.
(https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009r1r2r3/images/fig2d_07.gif)
Looks like someone liked upstate NY.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 11, 2023, 02:27:57 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 11, 2023, 11:22:29 AM
If none of you people knew that Limon was a control city we wouldn't be having this discussion but for some reason Limon gets shot down by roadgeeks simply because it's not a big enough place? I've read up on control cities and one thing they mention is that there is not a limit on how big a place has to be in order to be a control city. Like I've said before Mackinac Bridge is a control city in Michigan, it's a bridge not a city and makes perfect sense as a control city, St. Ignace is used in the U.P. instead of Mackinac Bridge until you get to St. Ignace then Mackinac Bridge is used followed by Saginaw in the Lower Peninsula but St. Ignace is slightly bigger than Limon and pretty much a major stop on I-75 in the U.P.
But anyway Limon is fine as a control city, it's a known place in Colorado, it doesn't have to be known in New York or Massachusetts or Michigan but it is known in Colorado and considered a hub city in eastern Colorado due to the highway junction which is exactly why it's a control city, has nothing to do with the size of the community.
The Mackinac bridge is different from Limon because it is a major geographic feature that travelers know about. Limon is not. If North Dakota followed Colorado's rules, Dickinson would be signed on I-94 west of Bismarck, not Billings.
Dickinson (24k) is the 7th largest city in ND and on I-94. Dickinson is an acceptable secondary control city given its importance in western ND.
Limon (1,167) is the 210th largest "city" in Colorado.
Bad comparison.
It would be more like signing Valley City on I-94 from Bismarck instead of Fargo.
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2023, 01:55:32 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2023, 01:43:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2023, 01:40:34 PM
Yeah, plenty of people all over the country have heard of Vail, but that doesn't mean they know it's on I-70 west of Denver on the way to Utah. They just know it's in the Colorado Rockies somewhere.
What about Wisconsin Dells, which is used? (I would rather have neither than both.)
Frankly, I think Wis Dells is a bad control city.
I spent my young childhood (through age eight) in the Chicago area, and then I lived there for seven years after college as well. The first time I drove up to Minnesota (probably 2003 or so), I thought, Huh, so apparently the Wisconsin Dells are around here somewhere.
It should be Tomah northbound, possibly doubled with Eau Claire, and just Madison southbound.
Tomah??? Really? KP, with all due respect because you are genuinely one of the nicest and thoughtful people in the forum, if you don't think Wis Dells, which is a major tourist destination, is a good control city but Tomah is because it happens to be where 90/94 split then you are way wrong. If you said it should be just straight up La Crosse and Eau Claire out of Madison, I got no issue there. Tomah is nothing more than a good secondary.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 12, 2023, 09:52:03 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 12, 2023, 08:06:54 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2023, 02:03:26 PM
By the way, I think "Kansas" is fine on I-70 eastbound in Colorado. Unlike many other control states, it's valid for all of Kansas, at least as a first step (e.g. for Dodge City or Wichita, you'll be on I-70 for the first part of the journey). This is unlike New Hampshire's use of "To All Maine Points" on I-95 where NH 16 splits and some of the inland areas of Maine are better reached by ignoring the Maine sign and getting on NH 16. I'm not that familiar with Illinois's control states, but I believe they're even worse in this regard than NH's signing of Maine.
Whenever someone brings up control states, a bunch of users always raid the thread with cries of AH I HATE CONTROL STATES :banghead: without actually giving an explanation to why they hate them.
Because they're not specific. When you are within 10 miles of the Illinois/Indiana state line, where, exactly, in Indiana are you heading? Gary? Indianapolis? Evansville?
If the highway is the major gateway to the state from a corner, like I-94/80/294 are to Indiana, then using Indiana is perfectly fine since you would use that highway to get to the decision point for Indianapolis, Toledo and Detroit.
Quote from: kirbykart on April 13, 2023, 09:28:47 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 12, 2023, 05:55:42 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2023, 01:55:32 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2023, 01:43:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2023, 01:40:34 PM
Yeah, plenty of people all over the country have heard of Vail, but that doesn't mean they know it's on I-70 west of Denver on the way to Utah. They just know it's in the Colorado Rockies somewhere.
What about Wisconsin Dells, which is used? (I would rather have neither than both.)
Frankly, I think Wis Dells is a bad control city.
I spent my young childhood (through age eight) in the Chicago area, and then I lived there for seven years after college as well. The first time I drove up to Minnesota (probably 2003 or so), I thought, Huh, so apparently the Wisconsin Dells are around here somewhere.
It should be Tomah northbound, possibly doubled with Eau Claire, and just Madison southbound.
No, the Dells are much more known, and a larger destination than Tomah.
Wow, I'm surprised Wisconsin Dells is actually the name of a city. I thought it was just the name of a region.
The original name for Wis Dells was Kilbourn City, named after one of the founders and former 2 time mayor of Milwaukee and President of the Milwaukee & La Crosse Railroad, Byron Kilbourn. If you are interested in fascinating history, lookup the "Milwaukee Bridge Wars".
Clinton, NJ is one that used to be a stand out community along US 22, but since North Central Jersey got overbuilt, it doesn't stand out. Yet it's still copied over even along I-78 in many places. Being things have changed it's about time to use Allentown coming out of Newark and New York.
Quote from: hobsini2 on April 23, 2023, 04:58:06 PM
Tomah??? Really? KP, with all due respect because you are genuinely one of the nicest and thoughtful people in the forum, if you don't think Wis Dells, which is a major tourist destination, is a good control city but Tomah is because it happens to be where 90/94 split then you are way wrong. If you said it should be just straight up La Crosse and Eau Claire out of Madison, I got no issue there. Tomah is nothing more than a good secondary.
I defer to the judgment of people more local to the area than I am. Enough folks have said that Tomah is a garbage control city, that I have to believe them. For what it's worth, I'd rather have double control cities of La Crosse and Eau Claire–but I started out that sentence assuming there would only be a single control city, so I went with Tomah. I added the "possibly doubled with" part as an afterthought, and I really should have just rethought the whole thing at that point.
Having said that, I wonder why more people don't defer to the judgement of people more local to the Limon area.
Quote from: kphoger on April 24, 2023, 10:23:29 AM
Having said that, I wonder why more people don't defer to the judgement of people more local to the Limon area.
Because the question is who is being served by (and who needs) control cities most. Is it locals, who would ultimately familiarize themselves with whatever is on those signs; or long haul drivers, who would get "
Take I-70 East towards Limon" GPS prompt, and would match that aS "first letter is L, that checks out"
Of course, in the paper maps era being able to find that control city on the map was a requirement. I bet map makers obliged anyways.
Quote from: kphoger on April 24, 2023, 10:23:29 AM
Having said that, I wonder why more people don't defer to the judgement of people more local to the Limon area.
Because there is nothing special about being "local" to any place that gives someone more say in how a national highway network built for all Americans should be designed. Locals are actually often the worst group to consult, as they can be biased towards wanting signage to draw traffic to the town etc. Locals know the area best, and thus have the least need for control cities, which are there to help unfamiliar motorists navigate.
Would "Limon Beltway" be better?
Using locals is also faulty as control cities are meant to help long distance travels, as locals already know which roads to take.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 24, 2023, 04:19:16 PM
Using locals is also faulty as control cities are meant to help long distance travels, as locals already know which roads to take.
That's not necessarily true. I grew up about 3 or 4 hours east of Denver, so I was somewhat local. We traveled to Denver for shopping or whatever a couple of times every year. I knew where Limon was, but that doesn't mean I automatically knew which lane of the freeway to use to get there from Denver. I have distinct memories from high school, finding my way out of Denver on I-70, relying on overhead signage to get me there.
Even within a city someone lives in, there are likely to be junctions he's never used. For example, I lived in the Chicago suburbs for almost seven years, but I'm not sure I used the Tri-State even once that whole time.
Quote from: kphoger on April 24, 2023, 03:00:39 PM
Would "Limon Beltway" be better?
Limon lacks a beltway so no. That badge of shame is reserved for another nameless city that unlike Limon is not on I-70
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 24, 2023, 05:57:51 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 24, 2023, 03:00:39 PM
Would "Limon Beltway" be better?
Limon lacks a beltway so no. That badge of shame is reserved for another nameless city that unlike Limon is not on I-70
Have you driven I-40 west of Flagstaff, AZ? If not you're in for a treat as Los Angeles is the control city. If you look at any map, I-40 ends in Barstow, CA that is still many miles and two other routes away from LA.
Quote from: kphoger on April 24, 2023, 10:23:29 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on April 23, 2023, 04:58:06 PM
Tomah??? Really? KP, with all due respect because you are genuinely one of the nicest and thoughtful people in the forum, if you don't think Wis Dells, which is a major tourist destination, is a good control city but Tomah is because it happens to be where 90/94 split then you are way wrong. If you said it should be just straight up La Crosse and Eau Claire out of Madison, I got no issue there. Tomah is nothing more than a good secondary.
I defer to the judgment of people more local to the area than I am. Enough folks have said that Tomah is a garbage control city, that I have to believe them. For what it's worth, I'd rather have double control cities of La Crosse and Eau Claire–but I started out that sentence assuming there would only be a single control city, so I went with Tomah. I added the "possibly doubled with" part as an afterthought, and I really should have just rethought the whole thing at that point.
Having said that, I wonder why more people don't defer to the judgement of people more local to the Limon area.
In general, I am in favor of having a secondary and primary control posted together. I know there are some in the forum that don't want anything to do with secondary control cities. That's fine. Their opinion. As for deferring to the locals, I would agree with that to an extent. There should be some basic rules of thumb and the locals could always bring up good exceptions to the rule. In the case of Limon, I get why it is a control city but should be relegated to secondary status, not primary. I would argue that going west on 70, Denver and Colo Springs should be cosigned primaries until Limon from Colby since that is where US 24 comes into play. Heading east is a bit tougher because of a lack of cities nearby. One could make a case for Topeka and Kansas City. Another could make a case for Salina and Hays. I think Hays would be safer to use than Salina because there is another Salina that is also 427 miles from Denver, not in Kansas. But secondary controls absolutely deserve to be used on the mileage signs consistently.