Excluding US 90 Business in NOLA that is the most obvious misuse of a business banner, we have US 190 Business in Slidell, LA that doesn't not only serves a business district, but doesn't return to its parent at one end either. Plus the mainline it parallels travels through Downtown Slidell.
In Jacksonville, FL you have US 90 ALT that has been realigned to make no sense as an alternate route. It used to branch off its parent downtown and follow the couplet of State and Union Streets into the Arlington Expressway across the St John's River and use FL 115 to return to US 90.
Now US 90 ALT uses FL 10 from the wye east of I-95 at Beach and Atlantic and heads east to FL 115 and south on FL 115 ( it's only original alignment left) to rejoin its parent. If you plot it on the map it makes no sense.
What bannered routes do feel need to go?
In Slidell replace US 190 Business with Spur US 190. In Jacksonville send US 90 over Alternate US 90's original alignment, as that is more direct than the current mainline. Let SR 212 and 10 replace the current US 90 and be done with it.
Missouri has a bunch of random shit, like SPUR US 50 in Smithton (pop. 500).
Michigan has been turning over highways to some of its larger cities lately, which apparently includes business routes. I always assumed those were informational and didn't determine who maintained the roads, but apparently MDOT doesn't work that way. Unfortunately, they haven't done anything with the parts of the business routes outside of city limits, so there are now a few weird spur business routes that abruptly end at city limits:
I-94 Business in Kalamazoo (https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?units=miles&r=mi.i094bskal)
US 131 Business in Kalamazoo (https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?units=miles&r=mi.us131buskal)
I-196 Business in Grand Rapids (https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?units=miles&r=mi.i196bsgra)
I-80 Business in Sacramento never made a ton of sense after I-80 was realigned. US 50 and CA 51 seem as though they are much more adequate sign route designations.
Probably the most bizarre I've found over the years in AZ 95D in Needles, California. I'm not sure what the purpose of providing an out of state detour was when AZ 95 was removed from a couple local Mohave County roads. Seems like just designating a Mohave County Route 95 would have solved the problem just fine.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 25, 2024, 11:45:38 PMI-80 Business in Sacramento never made a ton of sense after I-80 was realigned. US 50 and CA 51 seem as though they are much more adequate sign route designations.
Sure. Freeways should never be business routes because they can't actually have any businesses on them at all. And even on the frontage streets, there aren't as many businesses as there are in the central downtown streets.
Quote from: pderocco on November 26, 2024, 03:16:57 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on November 25, 2024, 11:45:38 PMI-80 Business in Sacramento never made a ton of sense after I-80 was realigned. US 50 and CA 51 seem as though they are much more adequate sign route designations.
Sure. Freeways should never be business routes because they can't actually have any businesses on them at all. And even on the frontage streets, there aren't as many businesses as there are in the central downtown streets.
Long before Biz 80 or the Carolinas' green interstates...
Business US 50 ran with Route 17 along the then-Cypress Freeway portion of today's 880 in the 1950s/1960s (after that replaced the former two routes' original alignment along the surrounding Cypress Street/today's Mandela Parkway), before reaching city streets in downtown Oakland.
I do get the idea of "use the freeway for like 1.5 miles to reach downtown" but I think that might have been the first business route freeway ever? And I don't think it was ever a historic US 50 routing at all (unlike the former 40 alignment on San Pablo Avenue becoming Business US 40 once the mainline was rerouted to the Eastshore corridor).
UA 1 Alternate serving Bangor, ME. It goes out of the way to be an alternative, but I'm guessing Bangor is an important city that they wanted US 1 to serve it.
So they left the mainline as a bypass and shortcut of the city.
The complex Y intersection between US 1 and US 17 in Spotsylvania County, Virginia includes a US 17 ALT and a US 17 BUSINESS that have no real reason to exist. Neither one functions as an alternate or business route, although neither one is actually posted as such.
Virginia Beach's US 58 BUSINESS doesn't really serve much of a purpose either, especially given that Virginia Beach doesn't post it at all (the only US 58 BUSINESS postings are on overheads at the complex interchange with I-264).
Quote from: roadman65 on November 26, 2024, 08:40:09 AMUA 1 Alternate serving Bangor, ME. It goes out of the way to be an alternative, but I'm guessing Bangor is an important city that they wanted US 1 to serve it.
So they left the mainline as a bypass and shortcut of the city.
I think it goes back to 'A/ALT' routes just being the old routing of the route in question. US 1 did serve Bangor until the Waldo–Hancock Bridge was built in 1931.
I-25 Business in Aguilar or I-40 Business in Radiator Springs Glenrio.
Quote from: TheStranger on November 26, 2024, 04:04:06 AMQuote from: pderocco on November 26, 2024, 03:16:57 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on November 25, 2024, 11:45:38 PMI-80 Business in Sacramento never made a ton of sense after I-80 was realigned. US 50 and CA 51 seem as though they are much more adequate sign route designations.
Sure. Freeways should never be business routes because they can't actually have any businesses on them at all. And even on the frontage streets, there aren't as many businesses as there are in the central downtown streets.
Long before Biz 80 or the Carolinas' green interstates...
Business US 50 ran with Route 17 along the then-Cypress Freeway portion of today's 880 in the 1950s/1960s (after that replaced the former two routes' original alignment along the surrounding Cypress Street/today's Mandela Parkway), before reaching city streets in downtown Oakland.
I do get the idea of "use the freeway for like 1.5 miles to reach downtown" but I think that might have been the first business route freeway ever? And I don't think it was ever a historic US 50 routing at all (unlike the former 40 alignment on San Pablo Avenue becoming Business US 40 once the mainline was rerouted to the Eastshore corridor).
I want to say that Pasadena requested something akin to a Business Route for US 66 as early the 1930s? I kind of view the whole US 101A with the Bayshore Highway as the first true Business Route California. The mainline highway being reverted to El Camino Real is explicitly stated to be for business purposes in all the AASHO notes.
North Carolina's practice of sometimes signing unbannered, business, and bypass US routes seems a bit ridiculous, when they could easily make one of them a state route.
Smithfield has Business US 70 as the original route, unbannered US 70 for most of the bypass, and Bypass US 70 to go around the immediate developed area of the I-95 interchange (the Bypass has no interchange with I-95 while the unbannered route does). Not to mention a nearby Alternate US 70 that branches off the developed section of US 70 near I-95, but that one is probably ok. Anyway, Bypass US 70 will one day go away once it becomes I-42.
Elizabeth City currently also has unbannered, Business, and Bypass sections of US 17, but Bypass US 17 will one day go away when it gets redesignated as I-87.
Goldsboro did have the same three versions of US 70 that Smithfield has, but their Bypass US 70 has just recently been redesignated I-42.
And then there's Rocky Mount, which has Bypass and Business bannered sections of US 301 but no unbannered section. And Henderson also has Bypass and Business sections of US 1 and US 158 but no unbannered sections.
I'm probably missing a few, but most of NC's issues seem to stem from building bypasses of bypasses due to lack of access control or sensible zoning regulations along the first bypass, and they're mostly in the eastern half of the state. The western half of the state will either have a Business or Bypass section but not both at the same time.
Quote from: wriddle082 on November 26, 2024, 09:48:50 AMAnd then there's Rocky Mount, which has Bypass and Business bannered sections of US 301 but no unbannered section. And Henderson also has Bypass and Business sections of US 1 and US 158 but no unbannered sections.
All business-bypass routes were posted this way in North Carolina up until ~1980 with oversize banners on each. There are some AASHTO requests to renumber the bypass routes as unbanned mainline routes.
Shelby is likely going to join the 3 variations of a route club.
Quote from: wriddle082 on November 26, 2024, 09:48:50 AMNorth Carolina's practice of sometimes signing unbannered, business, and bypass US routes seems a bit ridiculous, when they could easily make one of them a state route.
I would rather have them related in some obvious way rather than e.g. (making up numbers) US 64 and NC 729. There are two ways Massachusetts does this: MA 3A is an alternate of US 3, and MA 240 parallels MA 140. (140 and 40 are unrelated, though.) Neither of these is unique to Massachusetts; IN 930 is related to US 30, and New York and Oklahoma have alphabet soup (and New Hampshire and Vermont have more reasonable multiple letters such as NH 11A through 11D).
Quote from: TheCatalyst31 on November 25, 2024, 11:05:51 PMMichigan has been turning over highways to some of its larger cities lately, which apparently includes business routes. I always assumed those were informational and didn't determine who maintained the roads, but apparently MDOT doesn't work that way. Unfortunately, they haven't done anything with the parts of the business routes outside of city limits, so there are now a few weird spur business routes that abruptly end at city limits:
I-94 Business in Kalamazoo (https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?units=miles&r=mi.i094bskal)
US 131 Business in Kalamazoo (https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?units=miles&r=mi.us131buskal)
I-196 Business in Grand Rapids (https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?units=miles&r=mi.i196bsgra)
At least 131 business has emergency route signage beyond the stub end, so it's not difficult for folks to find their way back.
All of them :bigass:
Quote from: TheStranger on November 26, 2024, 04:04:06 AMI do get the idea of "use the freeway for like 1.5 miles to reach downtown" but I think that might have been the first business route freeway ever? And I don't think it was ever a historic US 50 routing at all (unlike the former 40 alignment on San Pablo Avenue becoming Business US 40 once the mainline was rerouted to the Eastshore corridor).
The earliest business route freeway was probably Business 1-9 in Jersey City, now NJ 139. It was created in 1934 when US 1-9 was explicitly placed on the George Washington Bridge.
None of West Virginia's signed alternate state routes make sense. They are mostly spurs that don't return to their parent route, such as ALT WV 10 in Barboursville or ALT WV 34 in Hurricane.
It ain't signed, but apparently College Parkway in Gadsden, AL, is designated as US 431 Bypass, despite the fact that the road dead-ends a little over a mile to the west of US 431 and US 431 Bypass only exists on the road. However, given the unfinished nature of I-759's western end and the fact that the west end of College Parkway is a pair of stubs, I suspect that it was originally intended to link-up with I-759 as part of a large bypass of US 431 around Gadsden and Attalla as a whole. Would certainly help eliminate a couple of the more awkward turns and intersections along it through that area.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 26, 2024, 03:24:34 PMNone of West Virginia's signed alternate state routes make sense. They are mostly spurs that don't return to their parent route, such as ALT WV 10 in Barboursville or ALT WV 34 in Hurricane.
WV seems to have basically treated ALT routes as for an alternate terminus. You see the same thing in action with WV 180, which used to be ALT WV 18. Now-unsigned ALT WV 72 near Kingwood is the same deal - it's the original routing, which ended at WV 26 rather than WV 7.
WV's usage is different than the unsigned SPUR routes, which just serve as connectors or Ohio River bridges.
The only (unsigned) ALT WV route that I know that connects to its parent at both ends is ALT WV 3 in Whitesville. ALT WV 27 in the Wellsburg area doesn't connect to WV 27 at all.
I'm not a fan of WV's recent adoption of BYPASS routes with US 19 in Beckley and US 522 at Berkeley Springs. Making the mainline route BUSINESS in both cases would seem to make more sense. WV doesn't use the BUSINESS designation either, other than some odd signs along ALT WV 34, although WVDOH's proposal for Corridor H's Parsons-Davis segment includes redesignated WV 32 through Thomas as BUSINESS WV 32.
Quote from: Bitmapped on November 27, 2024, 07:34:33 PMI'm not a fan of WV's recent adoption of BYPASS routes with US 19 in Beckley and US 522 at Berkeley Springs. Making the mainline route BUSINESS in both cases would seem to make more sense.
Maybe someone at WVDOT is on Travel Mapping and doesn't want people to lose their clinches?
I always felt that the designation "ALT US 301" for the Starke FL bypass was a bit odd. I would have thought that it would be "BYP US 301" instead - or even better, to be main-line "US 301" and the former routing becoming "BUS US 301".
Quote from: vdeane on November 27, 2024, 08:14:53 PMQuote from: Bitmapped on November 27, 2024, 07:34:33 PMI'm not a fan of WV's recent adoption of BYPASS routes with US 19 in Beckley and US 522 at Berkeley Springs. Making the mainline route BUSINESS in both cases would seem to make more sense.
Maybe someone at WVDOT is on Travel Mapping and doesn't want people to lose their clinches?
US 14 in Brookings, SD has the same setup, but it also has an I-29 Business Spur that just follows mainline US 14 for two miles, which is much sillier.
Quote from: TheCatalyst31 on November 30, 2024, 01:59:24 PMQuote from: vdeane on November 27, 2024, 08:14:53 PMQuote from: Bitmapped on November 27, 2024, 07:34:33 PMI'm not a fan of WV's recent adoption of BYPASS routes with US 19 in Beckley and US 522 at Berkeley Springs. Making the mainline route BUSINESS in both cases would seem to make more sense.
Maybe someone at WVDOT is on Travel Mapping and doesn't want people to lose their clinches?
US 14 in Brookings, SD has the same setup, but it also has an I-29 Business Spur that just follows mainline US 14 for two miles, which is much sillier.
So the 14 mainline/bypass split has been that way for at least as long as I can remember, depending on which side of town you're on you either get defaulted onto the mainline or the bypass. There really aren't business US routes in SD.
Now the business spur is basically a TM invention. If you're driving on I-29, the business spur is very well signed for Exit 132 in both directions, but there are no signs whatsoever on US 14/6th St. Back in the old CHM days, after biking around Brookings and field-confirming everything, I sat down in a hotel room in Brookings and laid out a plan for that route. It was originally in CHM as a Business Loop, but as there was no signage anywhere I had the idea to just route it along US 14 to downtown where the old loop route turned off. That way the route stayed (since there was the obvious consistent signage along I-29) but there was no new clinched mileage in the system (since the whole length of the "spur" is concurrent with US 14). I need to talk to DOT about getting those business spur signed off the BGS's, much like I need to email them about other things...
Quote from: SD Mapman on November 30, 2024, 02:11:03 PMQuote from: TheCatalyst31 on November 30, 2024, 01:59:24 PMQuote from: vdeane on November 27, 2024, 08:14:53 PMQuote from: Bitmapped on November 27, 2024, 07:34:33 PMI'm not a fan of WV's recent adoption of BYPASS routes with US 19 in Beckley and US 522 at Berkeley Springs. Making the mainline route BUSINESS in both cases would seem to make more sense.
Maybe someone at WVDOT is on Travel Mapping and doesn't want people to lose their clinches?
US 14 in Brookings, SD has the same setup, but it also has an I-29 Business Spur that just follows mainline US 14 for two miles, which is much sillier.
So the 14 mainline/bypass split has been that way for at least as long as I can remember, depending on which side of town you're on you either get defaulted onto the mainline or the bypass. There really aren't business US routes in SD.
Now the business spur is basically a TM invention. If you're driving on I-29, the business spur is very well signed for Exit 132 in both directions, but there are no signs whatsoever on US 14/6th St. Back in the old CHM days, after biking around Brookings and field-confirming everything, I sat down in a hotel room in Brookings and laid out a plan for that route. It was originally in CHM as a Business Loop, but as there was no signage anywhere I had the idea to just route it along US 14 to downtown where the old loop route turned off. That way the route stayed (since there was the obvious consistent signage along I-29) but there was no new clinched mileage in the system (since the whole length of the "spur" is concurrent with US 14). I need to talk to DOT about getting those business spur signed off the BGS's, much like I need to email them about other things...
That explains a lot. I was actually in Brookings earlier this week, but I came into town from the east on US 14, and I spent the night at a hotel by the I-29/US 14 interchange. So I checked TM before actually seeing what the signage looked like, and then forgot to double-check that the business spur was actually signed, since I didn't need to go out of my way to clinch it.
Quote from: dlsterner on November 27, 2024, 11:14:18 PMI always felt that the designation "ALT US 301" for the Starke FL bypass was a bit odd. I would have thought that it would be "BYP US 301" instead - or even better, to be main-line "US 301" and the former routing becoming "BUS US 301".
Not only do I think the Starke Bypass deserves to be designated mainline US 301 while the existing one should be Business US 301, but I think the same thing should be done to the Baldwin Bypass. Of course, there are a few other ideas about the Baldwin Bypass that should be different as well.
There are a few examples that bother me in Oregon, but I do not know why US 97 Business exists in Bend when half of it is just US 20 and the other half just has no advantage to driving on over the Bend Pkwy. The only reason it's there is because that's the old alignment of US 97 through Bend, and they probably want to "preserve" it.
You know, I can't think of anything like that in New York.
:confused:
All the truck routes in Watauga County, NC. US 221 Truck should just be mainline US 221, and mainline US 221 should become NC 105. US 321/421 Truck should be mainline US 321/421 (or bypass), and US 321/421 through downtown Boone should become business routes.
The de-facto NC 105 Bypass designation, although not an actual bannered route, doesn't make sense with its name. It doesn't take you around main NC 105 or connect you back to it.
US 74 Bypass around Monroe should probably become the main route or get congressionally designated as an odd I-x85 and have the US 74 Bypass designation removed. NCDOT clearly wants motorists to treat it as the main thoroughfare, seeing how they gave directional priority on US 74 to it. Giving it a secondary designation probably hurts that goal.
A lot of ALT designations are also pretty inconsistent (along with using A-suffixed routes instead of ALT banners for some). Why is the old alignment of US 74 in WNC half designated as Business, half as ALT? Why not just the whole thing as ALT? Why is US 221 ALT not US 221 Business if US 74 Business, serving a similar purpose, is right there? US 321 Business takes up US 321's old alignment in a lot of the towns along its route, except for Lenoir to Granite Falls, which is US 321A instead.
As mentioned earlier NCDOT doesn't seem to have any rhyme or reason with bannering their routes. Why did they decide to do something sensible with the Asheboro Bypass but not the others?
Quote from: SD Mapman on November 30, 2024, 02:11:03 PMQuote from: TheCatalyst31 on November 30, 2024, 01:59:24 PMQuote from: vdeane on November 27, 2024, 08:14:53 PMQuote from: Bitmapped on November 27, 2024, 07:34:33 PMI'm not a fan of WV's recent adoption of BYPASS routes with US 19 in Beckley and US 522 at Berkeley Springs. Making the mainline route BUSINESS in both cases would seem to make more sense.
Maybe someone at WVDOT is on Travel Mapping and doesn't want people to lose their clinches?
US 14 in Brookings, SD has the same setup, but it also has an I-29 Business Spur that just follows mainline US 14 for two miles, which is much sillier.
So the 14 mainline/bypass split has been that way for at least as long as I can remember, depending on which side of town you're on you either get defaulted onto the mainline or the bypass. There really aren't business US routes in SD.
Now the business spur is basically a TM invention. If you're driving on I-29, the business spur is very well signed for Exit 132 in both directions, but there are no signs whatsoever on US 14/6th St. Back in the old CHM days, after biking around Brookings and field-confirming everything, I sat down in a hotel room in Brookings and laid out a plan for that route. It was originally in CHM as a Business Loop, but as there was no signage anywhere I had the idea to just route it along US 14 to downtown where the old loop route turned off. That way the route stayed (since there was the obvious consistent signage along I-29) but there was no new clinched mileage in the system (since the whole length of the "spur" is concurrent with US 14). I need to talk to DOT about getting those business spur signed off the BGS's, much like I need to email them about other things...
Now that there's another exit in Brookings, maybe they can have a second go at creating a business loop there.
Quote from: index on December 01, 2024, 12:00:09 AMAll the truck routes in Watauga County, NC. US 221 Truck should just be mainline US 221, and mainline US 221 should become NC 105. US 321/421 Truck should be mainline US 321/421 (or bypass), and US 321/421 through downtown Boone should become business routes.
The de-facto NC 105 Bypass designation, although not an actual bannered route, doesn't make sense with its name. It doesn't take you around main NC 105 or connect you back to it.
US 74 Bypass around Monroe should probably become the main route or get congressionally designated as an odd I-x85 and have the US 74 Bypass designation removed. NCDOT clearly wants motorists to treat it as the main thoroughfare, seeing how they gave directional priority on US 74 to it. Giving it a secondary designation probably hurts that goal.
A lot of ALT designations are also pretty inconsistent (along with using A-suffixed routes instead of ALT banners for some). Why is the old alignment of US 74 in WNC half designated as Business, half as ALT? Why not just the whole thing as ALT? Why is US 221 ALT not US 221 Business if US 74 Business, serving a similar purpose, is right there? US 321 Business takes up US 321's old alignment in a lot of the towns along its route, except for Lenoir to Granite Falls, which is US 321A instead.
As mentioned earlier NCDOT doesn't seem to have any rhyme or reason with bannering their routes. Why did they decide to do something sensible with the Asheboro Bypass but not the others?
I went to App State, and i agree that the truck banners don't make much sense. Also US 221 and NC 105 should definitely switch spots. However, I don't think the current 105 needs to also be 321 and 421, those routes are fine through town. It would make more sense to sign bypass routes for 321/421 along 105 and the 105 Bypass.
US 74 Bypass in Monroe is probably labeled as such because its a toll road. Despite the fact that it's the most "worth it" toll road i've ever used, the main line through Monroe still carries a majority of the 74 traffic.
I think NCDOT's general rule with business vs ALT is based on if its in town limits or not.
One you didn't mention that I find a bit odd, is the signing of US 421 and NC 87 around Sanford. The bypass route is US 421/NC 87 BYPASS, whereas the original route is US 421 BUSINESS/NC 87. The routes are concurrent through the entire town, so why not sign both as bypass/business?
ALT County Route 511 in Morris and Passaic Counties of NJ don't make sense. It's really a spur of CR 511 as it's south end is in Mountain View at NJ 23 no where's near it's parent.
If it was concurrent with US 202 from Lincoln Park to Boonton it would make sense, but the concurrency with US 202 goes the other way in Lincoln Park to Mountain View.
At some point Alexandria, LA the alignment changed for the business route for US 165 and it doesn't make any sense other than probably reducing state mileage.
At the intersection of Bolton (bus LA 1 & 28) and Jackson (Bus US 165) Streets, now Bus 165 jogs back northwest rather than south to meet US 165 at the traffic circle where it used to.
The exit for Bolton St from US 71/MacArthur Dr now shows Pineville as a control city for Bus 165 which is especially silly. Nobody at that point on US 71 is going to backtrack that direction to the downtown bridge to Pineville when US 71 is about to cross into Pineville in one mile.
Arkansas has a lot of Spur state routes that don't make a lot of sense, usually just short spurs into a small town from the highway. Spur 7 in Hot Springs is an interesting one. Maybe someone can expound on that one. Was it meant to be a bypass of sorts from AR 7 to bypass downtown from the north?
iPhone
Quote from: D-Dey65 on November 30, 2024, 08:59:10 PMYou know, I can't think of anything like that in New York.
:confused:
(https://townsquare.media/site/705/files/2024/04/attachment-Screenshot-2024-04-25-072324.jpg?w=630&h=427&q=75)
No you guys just have religious themed ones apparently.
Quote from: PNWRoadgeek on November 30, 2024, 07:59:20 PMThere are a few examples that bother me in Oregon, but I do not know why US 97 Business exists in Bend when half of it is just US 20 and the other half just has no advantage to driving on over the Bend Pkwy. The only reason it's there is because that's the old alignment of US 97 through Bend, and they probably want to "preserve" it.
Of the three US 97 BUS routes in Oregon, the Bend one gives me the least heartburn. It's better signed than its Redmond counterpart, and definitely better signed and less confusing to navigate than the Klamath Falls version.
I'll point to four other Oregon examples:
US 30 BUS in Ontario: it doesn't really pass that many businesses, with most of its length in residential areas. Only the few blocks on its east end seem like a business route, and even then there are more businesses to be found on actual US 30 east of I-84.
US 30 BYP in Portland: once upon a time, this was probably a faster way across Portland, when US 30 traveled on surface streets through the heart of downtown. Now that 30 is routed on freeways and the improved Yeon Ave connection to I-405, BYP 30 is a slog compared to its parent. And since the elimination of the half interchange at its eastern terminus on I-84, there's not even any signage on that freeway telling motorists how to get onto BYP 30. I'm pretty surprised it wasn't removed along with BUS 30, or at some point since then. It may only owe its continued existence to keeping the St John's bridge on the state system.
US 101 BUS in Astoria/Warrenton: there are almost no businesses along this mostly-rural route even when it's in the city limits of both towns. It should be re-designated as US 101 ALT or OR 105 ( its hidden hwy #). There's even one overhead sign where it is bannered ALT so maybe someone at ODOT agrees:
(https://i.imgur.com/3ErrPGt.png?1)
Lastly, OR 99E BUS in Salem: the route would make more sense if it went down S Commercial St instead of duplexing with OR 22, and if it actually connected with mainline OR 99E on its northern end. I'd prefer to see it removed, with its northern segment along Dr MLK Jr (formerly Salem) Parkway re-designated as OR 72, its hidden hwy #.
And I'll just mention in passing this locally-signed unofficial BUS 30 in St Helens:
(https://i.imgur.com/DGGKPLz.jpg?2)
What about US-30 BUS in Huntington? That's over seven miles long, just to serve four blocks of sparse retail businesses. Maybe it should have been left as US-30, rather like it is through Haines further north. But then La Grande has a mostly urban US-30. Why? I don't see the pattern here.
Quote from: pderocco on February 16, 2025, 07:32:55 PMWhat about US-30 BUS in Huntington? That's over seven miles long, just to serve four blocks of sparse retail businesses. Maybe it should have been left as US-30, rather like it is through Haines further north. But then La Grande has a mostly urban US-30. Why? I don't see the pattern here.
While the Huntington Hwy is signed as BUS 30 on I-84, everything else I've ever seen, including ODOT documents and the signage along the road itself, say it's just US 30. So the freeway signs are likely in error.
In the larger towns along I-84, ODOT uses 30 as BL 84, so it's not necessary to have a BUS 30. That's another reason why the holdover BUS 30 in Ontario is weird, as that too could just be US 30.
I think the current termini of US 90 ALT and US 90 Business in Houston doesn't really make much sense.
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.797737,-95.2738339,6493m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIxMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
They co-terminate at each other at I-610, not at I-10/US 90. As such, US 90 Business does not end at US 90 at its western terminus, instead suddenly becoming US 90 Alt. And US 90 ALT has a basically unsigned concurrency with I-10 and US 90 as a result. To top it off, the area is confusingly signed, as some signs dating before the Crosby Freeway have not been changed over, leading to some parts of US 90 Business signed as US 90. I think all that is confusing. There are two potential ways that I could see this remedied to make it simpler:
1. Extend US 90 Business westward over US 90 ALT all the way to I-10/US 90, which would eliminate the multiplex with I-10 and US 90. It would also be a more logical terminus for US 90 Business.
2. Extend US 90 ALT eastward over the entirety of US 90 Business. This would simplify the corridor into one route and would avoid needless confusion.
There's also the situation somewhat nearby where the northern terminus of TX 288 Business ends past its northern interchange with TX 288, which is almost the opposite problem as the US 90 example:
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.2721213,-95.4548653,4200m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIxMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
I don't know of any other business routes that end past their intersections with their parent route. I would support changing TX 288 Business here back to its old designation in the 90s, TX 227 (and maybe you could extend that up FM 521 as well while you're at it).
Nevada's ALT US routes really don't make a whole lot of sense, if you try to think about them as actually being alternates to the mainline US route. Nobody is going to follow any of them from end to end back to the mainline.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 16, 2025, 11:50:00 PMNevada's ALT US routes really don't make a whole lot of sense, if you try to think about them as actually being alternates to the mainline US route. Nobody is going to follow any of them from end to end back to the mainline.
NDOT had a hell of a time getting AASHTO to approve any of them. Essentially the alternates ended up signed despite corridor rejections. The signage was in place so long that the executive committee eventually relented. It kind of makes sense given how against sub-300 mile intra-state US Routes AASHTO has been.
The alternates are pretty handy if you are trying to cut some time off your travel. One I used to use frequently was US 95A to get from US 50 to mainline US 95. Sure beat having to slog all the way to Fallon.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 17, 2025, 12:08:54 AMThe alternates are pretty handy if you are trying to cut some time off your travel. One I used to use frequently was US 95A to get from US 50 to mainline US 95. Sure beat having to slog all the way to Fallon.
Oh, they absolutely make sense as part of the state highway system, and arguably even as part of the US Route system. "Alternates" they ain't, though.
To me, the defining characteristic of an alternate route is, at the spot where they diverge, if someone says "Which route do I need to follow?" the correct answer is "it makes no difference" (or at the very least, something like "the mainline is shorter but the alternate is less steep"). That certainly isn't true with Nevada's alternate routes.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 17, 2025, 12:33:40 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on February 17, 2025, 12:08:54 AMThe alternates are pretty handy if you are trying to cut some time off your travel. One I used to use frequently was US 95A to get from US 50 to mainline US 95. Sure beat having to slog all the way to Fallon.
Oh, they absolutely make sense as part of the state highway system, and arguably even as part of the US Route system. "Alternates" they ain't, though.
To me, the defining characteristic of an alternate route is, at the spot where they diverge, if someone says "Which route do I need to follow?" the correct answer is "it makes no difference" (or at the very least, something like "the mainline is shorter but the alternate is less steep"). That certainly isn't true with Nevada's alternate routes.
I grew up in New England. I'm used to alternates meaning, "This is the old version of the road, which is still useful and part of the state highway system, and eventually goes to the same place." To the driver, it usually implies roughly the same thing as a business loop, while to the state DOT, a business loop differs in that it is usually locally maintained. But where I grew up, state highways are allowed to have locally maintained sections, which is why there are no business routes.
I grew up with the impression that ALT routes were often less direct, and therefore slower, but usually more scenic than the mainline. There were exceptions, though, like ALT US 101 outside Long Beach, WA, which cuts off a considerable distance.
I always thought ALT US 50 was the oddball in Nevada. It has its independent & useful portion as a direct route between Fallon and I-80, then turns abruptly to pointlessly duplex with ALT 95 to get back to US 50. The ALT 95 and ALT 93 always seemed quite a bit less contrived to me.
Back on the original topic, another nonsensical bannered route is US 191 BUS in Douglas AZ. It's bizarre because according to the signage, US 191 ends at its junction with AZ 80 west of town. However, a few miles east in Douglas, there is a signed US 191 BUS as a spur off 80 down to the Mexican border. So this BUS 191 doesn't even connect to its parent route. According to USEnds.com, this is the way the routes are defined in ADOT's records, so it isn't a signing error. It's just weird.
(https://i.imgur.com/QsLWr3f.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/aDqT9kz.jpg)
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 17, 2025, 12:33:40 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on February 17, 2025, 12:08:54 AMThe alternates are pretty handy if you are trying to cut some time off your travel. One I used to use frequently was US 95A to get from US 50 to mainline US 95. Sure beat having to slog all the way to Fallon.
Oh, they absolutely make sense as part of the state highway system, and arguably even as part of the US Route system. "Alternates" they ain't, though.
To me, the defining characteristic of an alternate route is, at the spot where they diverge, if someone says "Which route do I need to follow?" the correct answer is "it makes no difference" (or at the very least, something like "the mainline is shorter but the alternate is less steep"). That certainly isn't true with Nevada's alternate routes.
All of them are great examples of what should be sub-300 mile intra-state US Routes. Making them into alternates with bizarre loops back to the parent highways was the only way Nevada was going to get what they wanted. So we are in agreement they don't make sense as alternates, but definitely do as three digit US Routes.
Quote from: xonhulu on February 17, 2025, 03:03:53 AMI grew up with the impression that ALT routes were often less direct, and therefore slower, but usually more scenic than the mainline. There were exceptions, though, like ALT US 101 outside Long Beach, WA, which cuts off a considerable distance.
I always thought ALT US 50 was the oddball in Nevada. It has its independent & useful portion as a direct route between Fallon and I-80, then turns abruptly to pointlessly duplex with ALT 95 to get back to US 50. The ALT 95 and ALT 93 always seemed quite a bit less contrived to me.
Back on the original topic, another nonsensical bannered route is US 191 BUS in Douglas AZ. It's bizarre because according to the signage, US 191 ends at its junction with AZ 80 west of town. However, a few miles east in Douglas, there is a signed US 191 BUS as a spur off 80 down to the Mexican border. So this BUS 191 doesn't even connect to its parent route. According to USEnds.com, this is the way the routes are defined in ADOT's records, so it isn't a signing error. It's just weird.
(https://i.imgur.com/QsLWr3f.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/aDqT9kz.jpg)
Arizona is one of those states that doesn't sign State or US Routes on road segments not owned by ADOT. There is a gap on US 191 north of US 160 on Navajo Nation owned roadway to the Utah state line signed as "To US 191."
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 17, 2025, 09:46:34 AMArizona is one of those states that doesn't sign State or US Routes on road segments not owned by ADOT. There is a gap on US 191 north of US 160 on Navajo Nation owned roadway to the Utah state line signed as "To US 191."
I last drove that stretch of road in 2005, and it was just signed as Navajo Route N12 then, as I immediately saw in the photo below once I turned north. GSV shows the signage is still similar to this now:
(https://i.imgur.com/qDiuYIN.jpg)
Unfortunately, this gem on SB N12 approaching the junction with US 160 has been replaced with a more legible but otherwise identical sign:
(https://i.imgur.com/exHBOKW.jpg)
And I was happy to see this 191 shield assembly is still there, complete with the bizarre "right-and-back" arrow (both directions are South 191?):
(https://i.imgur.com/Z0W7PEk.jpg)
Now, that sign indirectly indicates the route you had just traveled
was actually 191. But, as you noted, the signage on US 160 says "TO 191," and as I remember, you don't see a 191 reassurance shield anywhere along that stretch of road until the Utah border.
Since pretty much every map, including the Arizona official hwy map, labels this road as part of US 191, this nit-picking signage can only create potential confusion. But you've still gotta love the bureaucratic mindset in which that signage is necessary.
Quote from: xonhulu on February 17, 2025, 01:25:58 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on February 17, 2025, 09:46:34 AMArizona is one of those states that doesn't sign State or US Routes on road segments not owned by ADOT. There is a gap on US 191 north of US 160 on Navajo Nation owned roadway to the Utah state line signed as "To US 191."
I last drove that stretch of road in 2005, and it was just signed as Navajo Route N12 then, as I immediately saw in the photo below once I turned north. GSV shows the signage is still similar to this now:
(https://i.imgur.com/qDiuYIN.jpg)
Unfortunately, this gem on SB N12 approaching the junction with US 160 has been replaced with a more legible but otherwise identical sign:
(https://i.imgur.com/exHBOKW.jpg)
And I was happy to see this 191 shield assembly is still there, complete with the bizarre "right-and-back" arrow (both directions are South 191?):
(https://i.imgur.com/Z0W7PEk.jpg)
Now, that sign indirectly indicates the route you had just traveled was actually 191. But, as you noted, the signage on US 160 says "TO 191," and as I remember, you don't see a 191 reassurance shield anywhere along that stretch of road until the Utah border.
Since pretty much every map, including the Arizona official hwy map, labels this road as part of US 191, this nit-picking signage can only create potential confusion. But you've still gotta love the bureaucratic mindset in which that signage is necessary.
Although, one could say that neither of these segments would be nearly as interesting if they weren't part of said bureaucracy. If both were just signed "US 191" neither would be an interesting conversation piece.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 17, 2025, 01:49:06 PMAlthough, one could say that neither of these segments would be nearly as interesting if they weren't part of said bureaucracy. If both were just signed "US 191" neither would be an interesting conversation piece.
That's very true.
And hardly the only Arizona oddity. Their postmile system borders on clinical psychosis, for example. This 191 nit-pickery is relatively mild by comparison.
Quote from: xonhulu on February 16, 2025, 04:38:10 PMLastly, OR 99E BUS in Salem: the route would make more sense if it went down S Commercial St instead of duplexing with OR 22, and if it actually connected with mainline OR 99E on its northern end. I'd prefer to see it removed, with its northern segment along Dr MLK Jr (formerly Salem) Parkway re-designated as OR 72, its hidden hwy #.
That used to be the routing for OR 99EB, but at some point, Commercial got pulled off the system. I suspect the primary reason that the Parkway got 99EB was there was no clean way to get 99E from Portland Road to the Parkway from Exit 258. It'd probably be better if Commercial were signed as 99EB, even as a non-ODOT maintained road like OR 8 on Gales Creek Rd, and OR 213 between Salem and Silverton.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 17, 2025, 12:33:40 AMTo me, the defining characteristic of an alternate route is, at the spot where they diverge, if someone says "Which route do I need to follow?" the correct answer is "it makes no difference" (or at the very least, something like "the mainline is shorter but the alternate is less steep"). That certainly isn't true with Nevada's alternate routes.
Over here in Alabama, Alt. US 72 is the more direct route across the Tennessee Valley, and I believe might be a bit shorter than following US 72 all the way cross the state. In fact, the old Lee Highway followed what's now the route of Alt. US 72 between Huntsville and the Shoals.
IIRC, US 72 curving up into Florence and then running east to Huntsville through Athens was purely a political move by the politicians at the time, though I suppose there is an argument for it in the practical sense, given that Florence is home to the University of North Alabama and Athens has a college of its own too (plus, Florence is the largest city over there in the Shoals).
Quote from: Mapmikey on November 26, 2024, 10:17:11 AMQuote from: wriddle082 on November 26, 2024, 09:48:50 AMAnd then there's Rocky Mount, which has Bypass and Business bannered sections of US 301 but no unbannered section. And Henderson also has Bypass and Business sections of US 1 and US 158 but no unbannered sections.
All business-bypass routes were posted this way in North Carolina up until ~1980 with oversize banners on each. There are some AASHTO requests to renumber the bypass routes as unbanned mainline routes.
Shelby is likely going to join the 3 variations of a route club.
Virginia was that way too. In fact there used to be a Bypass US 13 on I-64 through Chesapeake and Norfolk while Military Highway was bannered as Business US 13. When it came time instead of removing the bypass banner of US 13, they decommissioned it and removed the Business banner of US 13 so that Military Highway is now unbannered US 13.
Also keep in mind some independent cities don't still banner business routes even with the unbannered mainline nearby. Fredericksburg and South Hill for Business US 1 don't have business banners on their assigned routes trailblazers.
QuoteAlso keep in mind some independent cities don't still banner business routes even with the unbannered mainline nearby. Fredericksburg and South Hill for Business US 1 don't have business banners on their assigned routes trailblazers.
South Hill only has a US 58 business route that is signed from US 58 correctly, but not downtown at the split with US 1 at VA 47. (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.7263684,-78.1291735,3a,75y,30.88h,93.28t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sgVixS_F7ga4oag1f63OZmQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-3.2787066211054423%26panoid%3DgVixS_F7ga4oag1f63OZmQ%26yaw%3D30.87590721303689!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIxMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
FWIW, US 1 Business is signed at its south end at US 1/VA 208 (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2532051,-77.4979583,3a,75y,59.67h,84.61t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sYd_Lr0ekmrPIjyjwnj-PCQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D5.386091604741068%26panoid%3DYd_Lr0ekmrPIjyjwnj-PCQ%26yaw%3D59.6736520413712!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIxMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) and at VA 3 (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2905986,-77.473521,3a,75y,151.15h,83.38t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sVWzu4I6E1C87zucsuuctkg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D6.6171407859852565%26panoid%3DVWzu4I6E1C87zucsuuctkg%26yaw%3D151.14693277893093!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIxMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D). I am unsure how much US 17 BUS and US 1 BUS within the city of Fredericksburg is signed at well (if even correctly (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2982687,-77.4578756,3a,37.6y,86.54h,89.16t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sJbdwH_HSz_6D0pOUND4stg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0.835465294126152%26panoid%3DJbdwH_HSz_6D0pOUND4stg%26yaw%3D86.5434837187517!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIxMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)).
Quote from: 74/171FAN on February 19, 2025, 06:44:52 AMQuoteAlso keep in mind some independent cities don't still banner business routes even with the unbannered mainline nearby. Fredericksburg and South Hill for Business US 1 don't have business banners on their assigned routes trailblazers.
South Hill only has a US 58 business route that is signed from US 58 correctly, but not downtown at the split with US 1 at VA 47. (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.7263684,-78.1291735,3a,75y,30.88h,93.28t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sgVixS_F7ga4oag1f63OZmQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-3.2787066211054423%26panoid%3DgVixS_F7ga4oag1f63OZmQ%26yaw%3D30.87590721303689!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIxMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
FWIW, US 1 Business is signed at its south end at US 1/VA 208 (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2532051,-77.4979583,3a,75y,59.67h,84.61t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sYd_Lr0ekmrPIjyjwnj-PCQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D5.386091604741068%26panoid%3DYd_Lr0ekmrPIjyjwnj-PCQ%26yaw%3D59.6736520413712!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIxMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) and at VA 3 (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2905986,-77.473521,3a,75y,151.15h,83.38t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sVWzu4I6E1C87zucsuuctkg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D6.6171407859852565%26panoid%3DVWzu4I6E1C87zucsuuctkg%26yaw%3D151.14693277893093!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIxMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D). I am unsure how much US 17 BUS and US 1 BUS within the city of Fredericksburg is signed at well (if even correctly (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2982687,-77.4578756,3a,37.6y,86.54h,89.16t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sJbdwH_HSz_6D0pOUND4stg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0.835465294126152%26panoid%3DJbdwH_HSz_6D0pOUND4stg%26yaw%3D86.5434837187517!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIxMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)).
US 1 Bus is not signed terrifically in Fredericksburg, but mostly correctly where it is. US 17 Bus is poorly signed and mostly incorrectly within the city proper in the few spots it is.
Quote from: Mapmikey on February 19, 2025, 07:33:29 AMQuote from: 74/171FAN on February 19, 2025, 06:44:52 AMQuoteAlso keep in mind some independent cities don't still banner business routes even with the unbannered mainline nearby. Fredericksburg and South Hill for Business US 1 don't have business banners on their assigned routes trailblazers.
South Hill only has a US 58 business route that is signed from US 58 correctly, but not downtown at the split with US 1 at VA 47. (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.7263684,-78.1291735,3a,75y,30.88h,93.28t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sgVixS_F7ga4oag1f63OZmQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-3.2787066211054423%26panoid%3DgVixS_F7ga4oag1f63OZmQ%26yaw%3D30.87590721303689!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIxMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
FWIW, US 1 Business is signed at its south end at US 1/VA 208 (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2532051,-77.4979583,3a,75y,59.67h,84.61t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sYd_Lr0ekmrPIjyjwnj-PCQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D5.386091604741068%26panoid%3DYd_Lr0ekmrPIjyjwnj-PCQ%26yaw%3D59.6736520413712!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIxMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) and at VA 3 (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2905986,-77.473521,3a,75y,151.15h,83.38t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sVWzu4I6E1C87zucsuuctkg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D6.6171407859852565%26panoid%3DVWzu4I6E1C87zucsuuctkg%26yaw%3D151.14693277893093!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIxMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D). I am unsure how much US 17 BUS and US 1 BUS within the city of Fredericksburg is signed at well (if even correctly (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2982687,-77.4578756,3a,37.6y,86.54h,89.16t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sJbdwH_HSz_6D0pOUND4stg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0.835465294126152%26panoid%3DJbdwH_HSz_6D0pOUND4stg%26yaw%3D86.5434837187517!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIxMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)).
US 1 Bus is not signed terrifically in Fredericksburg, but mostly correctly where it is. US 17 Bus is poorly signed and mostly incorrectly within the city proper in the few spots it is.
US 1 Bus. in Fredericksburg was unbannered US 1 until circa 1970 with current US 1 as US 1 Alternate. So over the years the city never updated and the only reason why ALT banners got removed is because most of US 1 is outside the city limits where state maintenance is prominent.
The south end of the business route is also state maintained hence the proper signing.
From what I see is independent cities are careless with either shielding ( VA Beach for example) or proper bannering.
Quote from: roadman65 on February 19, 2025, 02:26:21 PMSo over the years the city never updated and the only reason why ALT banners got removed is because most of US 1 is outside the city limits where state maintenance is prominent
This is incorrect. About 3/4 of the bypass is in the city. Other than the famous BGS at the north end, there have been no ALT banners anywhere back to at least 1995 and there are more US 1 postings along the bypass inside the city than outside.
Between Abingdon and Jonesville, Va., Alternate US 58 is a better route than "plain" US 58. More of the route is four lanes. So I'd argue in this instance, the regular route doesn't make sense.
Quote from: pderocco on November 26, 2024, 03:16:57 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on November 25, 2024, 11:45:38 PMI-80 Business in Sacramento never made a ton of sense after I-80 was realigned. US 50 and CA 51 seem as though they are much more adequate sign route designations.
Sure. Freeways should never be business routes because they can't actually have any businesses on them at all. And even on the frontage streets, there aren't as many businesses as there are in the central downtown streets.
I agree with that assessment, which is why I'm glad that NC got rid of its nonsensical BL freeways, especially those that were concurrent with US routes, like BL 40 with US 421 and BL 85 with US 29. We just need Sacramento and Spartanburg to do the same with theirs (especially BL 80, where I support signing CA 51 over the leftover part).
Quote from: bassoon1986 on February 16, 2025, 01:47:23 PMArkansas has a lot of Spur state routes that don't make a lot of sense
US 82 Spur (https://wiki.aaroads.com/wiki/Special_routes_of_U.S._Route_82#Felsenthal_National_Wildlife_Refuge_spur) is probably the most egregious. Yes, this driveway deserves the same shield as some of the most major highways in the US.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on March 04, 2025, 03:32:19 AMQuote from: bassoon1986 on February 16, 2025, 01:47:23 PMArkansas has a lot of Spur state routes that don't make a lot of sense
US 82 Spur (https://wiki.aaroads.com/wiki/Special_routes_of_U.S._Route_82#Felsenthal_National_Wildlife_Refuge_spur) is probably the most egregious. Yes, this driveway deserves the same shield as some of the most major highways in the US.
The Street View (https://maps.app.goo.gl/yFJ7ZzJ8dhp16WeM8) for that spur is amazing. It's very well-signed for a route that you can see the end of from US 82, and the other end is at a trash can.
Quote from: TheCatalyst31 on March 05, 2025, 09:31:20 PMQuote from: LilianaUwU on March 04, 2025, 03:32:19 AMQuote from: bassoon1986 on February 16, 2025, 01:47:23 PMArkansas has a lot of Spur state routes that don't make a lot of sense
US 82 Spur (https://wiki.aaroads.com/wiki/Special_routes_of_U.S._Route_82#Felsenthal_National_Wildlife_Refuge_spur) is probably the most egregious. Yes, this driveway deserves the same shield as some of the most major highways in the US.
The Street View (https://maps.app.goo.gl/yFJ7ZzJ8dhp16WeM8) for that spur is amazing. It's very well-signed for a route that you can see the end of from US 82, and the other end is at a trash can.
I don't know what, but that's gotta be a metaphor for
something.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 06, 2025, 01:50:24 AMQuote from: TheCatalyst31 on March 05, 2025, 09:31:20 PMQuote from: LilianaUwU on March 04, 2025, 03:32:19 AMQuote from: bassoon1986 on February 16, 2025, 01:47:23 PMArkansas has a lot of Spur state routes that don't make a lot of sense
US 82 Spur (https://wiki.aaroads.com/wiki/Special_routes_of_U.S._Route_82#Felsenthal_National_Wildlife_Refuge_spur) is probably the most egregious. Yes, this driveway deserves the same shield as some of the most major highways in the US.
The Street View (https://maps.app.goo.gl/yFJ7ZzJ8dhp16WeM8) for that spur is amazing. It's very well-signed for a route that you can see the end of from US 82, and the other end is at a trash can.
I don't know what, but that's gotta be a metaphor for something.
The entire country?
AZ95 Truck route in Parker, AZ runs from AZ95 to the Colorado River Bridge and CA62.
Quote from: mapman1071 on March 19, 2025, 10:46:48 PMAZ95 Truck route in Parker, AZ runs from AZ95 to the Colorado River Bridge and CA62.
It's illogical as a bypass for AZ-95 to the north, but I think most trucks using AZ-95 south of Parker also use CA-62. That's a significant alternate route to I-10.
US 69 Spur in Bethany, MO would make more sense as part of an I-35 business loop.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on March 04, 2025, 03:32:19 AMQuote from: bassoon1986 on February 16, 2025, 01:47:23 PMArkansas has a lot of Spur state routes that don't make a lot of sense
US 82 Spur (https://wiki.aaroads.com/wiki/Special_routes_of_U.S._Route_82#Felsenthal_National_Wildlife_Refuge_spur) is probably the most egregious. Yes, this driveway deserves the same shield as some of the most major highways in the US.
I clinched that US 82S route.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 09, 2025, 06:53:47 PMQuote from: LilianaUwU on March 04, 2025, 03:32:19 AMQuote from: bassoon1986 on February 16, 2025, 01:47:23 PMArkansas has a lot of Spur state routes that don't make a lot of sense
US 82 Spur (https://wiki.aaroads.com/wiki/Special_routes_of_U.S._Route_82#Felsenthal_National_Wildlife_Refuge_spur) is probably the most egregious. Yes, this driveway deserves the same shield as some of the most major highways in the US.
I clinched that US 82S route.
I can see why there would be dinky spur routes in a state like California that officially designates such routes if CalTrans maintains them (even if it doesn't sign them), but this is a US route. Did AASHTO accede to this designation?
In Florida US 27 ALT between Williston and Perry should be mainline US 27. The existing un-bannered US ,27 overlaps US 41 from Williston to High Springs before it becomes solo West to Perry. The overlap should be US 41 and the rest should be ome FL 20 ( which is its state route designation) .
From what I understand it's because they wanted US 27 to serve a couple of county seats. However it's alternate serves two county seats as well
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 17, 2025, 12:08:54 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on February 16, 2025, 11:50:00 PMNevada's ALT US routes really don't make a whole lot of sense, if you try to think about them as actually being alternates to the mainline US route. Nobody is going to follow any of them from end to end back to the mainline.
NDOT had a hell of a time getting AASHTO to approve any of them. Essentially the alternates ended up signed despite corridor rejections. The signage was in place so long that the executive committee eventually relented. It kind of makes sense given how against sub-300 mile intra-state US Routes AASHTO has been.
Yes, none of Nevada's US Alt routes make sense in a present-day context. The one exception is US 395 Alt being signed through Washoe Valley, for the high profile vehicle detour during strong crosswinds on the main I-580/US 395 freeway. (Although the portion along Virginia St in south Reno that had previously been SR 430 could've been left alone—this section isn't signed as US 395 Alt though, but is officially designated internally by NDOT & AASHTO.) Even still, they could've made due with a state route number instead.
All of Nevada's US-Alt routes, with exception of US 95 Alt south of Fernley, are former mainline US route alignments. The Alt designations were clearly NDOT's attempts to keep these highways in the US route system.
In historical context, the portion of US 95 Alt that is not concurrent with I-80 makes a lot of sense. Mainline US 95 was originally extended southerly through Nevada on roads that were mostly or fully paved at the time. The route headed from Winnemucca west all the way into Fernley before backtracking to east to Fallon. So for travelers headed south from Fernley towards central Nevada, there was a viable choice between there and Schurz by going with mainline 95 via Fallon or 95 Alt via Yerington (it's only about a 3 mile difference). However, once the current US 95 was fully paved north of Fallon to connect to US 40 (today's I-80) more directly, the Alt route situation around Fernley got weird and a little desperate.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 17, 2025, 12:33:40 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on February 17, 2025, 12:08:54 AMThe alternates are pretty handy if you are trying to cut some time off your travel. One I used to use frequently was US 95A to get from US 50 to mainline US 95. Sure beat having to slog all the way to Fallon.
Oh, they absolutely make sense as part of the state highway system, and arguably even as part of the US Route system. "Alternates" they ain't, though.
To me, the defining characteristic of an alternate route is, at the spot where they diverge, if someone says "Which route do I need to follow?" the correct answer is "it makes no difference" (or at the very least, something like "the mainline is shorter but the alternate is less steep"). That certainly isn't true with Nevada's alternate routes.
Agreed that these currently don't meet the intent of any good definition of "alternate". Current US 50 Alt & US 93 Alt should never have been designated alternates with these numbers, and should have been established as spur routes instead.
Quote from: Molandfreak on April 26, 2025, 10:04:54 PMUS 69 Spur in Bethany, MO would make more sense as part of an I-35 business loop.
Not sure why that one isn't just a lettered route.
Quote from: roadman65 on November 25, 2024, 09:03:54 PMExcluding US 90 Business in NOLA that is the most obvious misuse of a business banner, we have US 190 Business in Slidell, LA that doesn't not only serves a business district, but doesn't return to its parent at one end either. Plus the mainline it parallels travels through Downtown Slidell.
In Jacksonville, FL you have US 90 ALT that has been realigned to make no sense as an alternate route. It used to branch off its parent downtown and follow the couplet of State and Union Streets into the Arlington Expressway across the St John's River and use FL 115 to return to US 90.
Now US 90 ALT uses FL 10 from the wye east of I-95 at Beach and Atlantic and heads east to FL 115 and south on FL 115 ( it's only original alignment left) to rejoin its parent. If you plot it on the map it makes no sense.
What bannered routes do feel need to go?
In Slidell replace US 190 Business with Spur US 190. In Jacksonville send US 90 over Alternate US 90's original alignment, as that is more direct than the current mainline. Let SR 212 and 10 replace the current US 90 and be done with it.
In general Louisiana s*cks at bannered routes, much less them making any sense routing wise. See present route of US 61/190 Bus in Baton Rouge, US 90 Bus in Lake Charles, and US 167 Bus in Alexandria.
Sacks? Socks? Sicks? Secks?
Quote from: NE2 on May 16, 2025, 09:05:05 PMSacks? Socks? Sicks? Secks?
The asterisk as a wildcard need not represent only a single character.
Louisiana shocks at bannered routes.
Louisiana smacks at bannered routes.
Louisiana singletracks at bannered routes.
Quote from: Urban Prairie Schooner on May 16, 2025, 09:04:06 PMs*cks
I've seen absurd censorship, but this is a whole new level.
I agree, Louisiana does "sock" when it comes to bannered routes. I often ask people "do you know how much Louisiana socks?"
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on May 18, 2025, 03:22:00 PMI agree, Louisiana does "sock" when it comes to bannered routes. I often ask people "do you know how much Louisiana socks?"
I mean, it is shaped like a boot, and one usually wears socks with boots.
Quote from: TheCatalyst31 on May 18, 2025, 10:36:40 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on May 18, 2025, 03:22:00 PMI agree, Louisiana does "sock" when it comes to bannered routes. I often ask people "do you know how much Louisiana socks?"
I mean, it is shaped like a boot, and one usually wears socks with boots.
I propose we surround Louisiana with a massive fabric "sock," which will be supported by air pressure much like the roof on the old Minneapolis Metrodome, protecting against hurricanes and the heat. We'll need to bulldoze Shreveport to make space for the air conditioners that will keep the sock inflated, but that is a small price to pay for a sock of this magnitude.
Wait... did I just reinvent ALANCAN?
Quote from: CoreySamson on June 22, 2025, 04:43:21 PMQuote from: TheCatalyst31 on May 18, 2025, 10:36:40 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on May 18, 2025, 03:22:00 PMI agree, Louisiana does "sock" when it comes to bannered routes. I often ask people "do you know how much Louisiana socks?"
I mean, it is shaped like a boot, and one usually wears socks with boots.
I propose we surround Louisiana with a massive fabric "sock," which will be supported by air pressure much like the roof on the old Minneapolis Metrodome, protecting against hurricanes and the heat. We'll need to bulldoze Shreveport to make space for the air conditioners that will keep the sock inflated, but that is a small price to pay for a sock of this magnitude.
Wait... did I just reinvent ALANCAN?
I think that would make Louisiana's heat problem worse, based on a certain metaphor involving two rats in a sock.
Quote from: CoreySamson on June 22, 2025, 04:43:21 PMQuote from: TheCatalyst31 on May 18, 2025, 10:36:40 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on May 18, 2025, 03:22:00 PMI agree, Louisiana does "sock" when it comes to bannered routes. I often ask people "do you know how much Louisiana socks?"
I mean, it is shaped like a boot, and one usually wears socks with boots.
I propose we surround Louisiana with a massive fabric "sock," which will be supported by air pressure much like the roof on the old Minneapolis Metrodome, protecting against hurricanes and the heat. We'll need to bulldoze Shreveport to make space for the air conditioners that will keep the sock inflated, but that is a small price to pay for a sock of this magnitude.
Wait... did I just reinvent ALANCAN?
So...the domed city ideas of mid-20th Century science fiction are coming back into vogue...