Title: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: burgess87 on October 01, 2010, 04:27:55 PM
Post by: burgess87 on October 01, 2010, 04:27:55 PM
Per the New York Post: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/bronx/million_kuj8X4Z2VolVhXnCymfkvM
NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Mods, feel free to move / merge if necessary.
Quote from: ArticleFederal copy editors are demanding the city change its 250,900 street signs -- such as these for Perry Avenue in The Bronx -- from the all-caps style used for more than a century to ones that capitalize only the first letters.
Quote from: ArticleThe new regulations also require a change in font from the standard highway typeface to Clearview, which was specially developed for this purpose.
As a result, even numbered street signs will have to be replaced.
NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Mods, feel free to move / merge if necessary.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: 6a on October 01, 2010, 04:31:07 PM
Post by: 6a on October 01, 2010, 04:31:07 PM
I was under the impression that signs only had to be replaced when they were dilapidated or when road construction was done. That article makes it sound like a new MUTCD means everyone has to rush out and change their signs. Hell, we have all caps here and no one has said a peep, although I could imagine folks here saying "we'll change it when you give us the damn money."
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: burgess87 on October 01, 2010, 04:35:24 PM
Post by: burgess87 on October 01, 2010, 04:35:24 PM
Exactly. That's $27 million New York State doesn't have to spend.
NYSDOT has replaced a lot of signage in this area over the past two years. They'd take a portion of highway and replace every sign (warning signs, speed limit / regulatory, etc.). The new 'Reduced Speed Ahead' sign has made its way into three or four locations in Genesee County.
Last year (we'll take NY 63 from Shelby Center to Alabama as an example): The street signs were all replaced and were all caps (FHWA Series C or D). The cardinal direction banners were replaced with the 'new' ones (first letter taller than others).
This year (ex. NY 104 b/t Knowlesville RD & NY 279), the street signs were replaced and used primary capitalization in FHWA Series B.
NYSDOT has replaced a lot of signage in this area over the past two years. They'd take a portion of highway and replace every sign (warning signs, speed limit / regulatory, etc.). The new 'Reduced Speed Ahead' sign has made its way into three or four locations in Genesee County.
Last year (we'll take NY 63 from Shelby Center to Alabama as an example): The street signs were all replaced and were all caps (FHWA Series C or D). The cardinal direction banners were replaced with the 'new' ones (first letter taller than others).
This year (ex. NY 104 b/t Knowlesville RD & NY 279), the street signs were replaced and used primary capitalization in FHWA Series B.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: 6a on October 01, 2010, 04:39:00 PM
Post by: 6a on October 01, 2010, 04:39:00 PM
Might I add, the Av looks really dumb in the new sign. :pan:
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Scott5114 on October 01, 2010, 05:00:22 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 01, 2010, 05:00:22 PM
The bit about Clearview is clearly bogus, since Clearview still isn't even mentioned in the 2009 MUTCD. It's still supplemental material.
More likely is the old blades not being up to new retroreflectivity standards, thus requiring replacement immediately. Therefore, the new blades have to be in mixed-case (which otherwise would not need to be changed until the sign would need replacement for whatever other reason).
More likely is the old blades not being up to new retroreflectivity standards, thus requiring replacement immediately. Therefore, the new blades have to be in mixed-case (which otherwise would not need to be changed until the sign would need replacement for whatever other reason).
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Alps on October 01, 2010, 05:46:23 PM
Post by: Alps on October 01, 2010, 05:46:23 PM
This is the New York Post. Please stop expecting quality journalism.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: burgess87 on October 01, 2010, 07:03:00 PM
Post by: burgess87 on October 01, 2010, 07:03:00 PM
Hey, hey, hey . . . . I'm not a regular reader of the Post . . . who am I to know what kind of reputation it has?
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: mightyace on October 01, 2010, 07:06:40 PM
Post by: mightyace on October 01, 2010, 07:06:40 PM
Quote from: burgess87 on October 01, 2010, 07:03:00 PM
Hey, hey, hey . . . . I'm not a regular reader of the Post . . . who am I to know what kind of reputation it has?
I've never read the New York Post yet I know of their "reputation". :-D
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: thenetwork on October 01, 2010, 08:10:06 PM
Post by: thenetwork on October 01, 2010, 08:10:06 PM
The article does say that the Feds want NYC, and I assume every other town in America, to be totally converted by 2018. I didn't even know of this rule/requirement until now, and it's been on the books for 7 years already?!?!? Clearview was only a twinkle in a sign-maker's eye in 2003, so I would call shenanigans on the Clearview requirement as well.
Granted I have seen more municipalities moving over to Mixed-case over the last decade, but I never knew that it was part of a more "user-friendly" imaging campaign. Also explains why my town is slowly replacing blades (in ALL CAPS and showing a city logo on them) with more generic mixed caps lettering (Does this Federal mandate also prohibit the use of city logos -- like the Statue of Liberty in NYC -- on street blades as well???)
That style seen in the NYC photo looks so "cheap looking".
Granted I have seen more municipalities moving over to Mixed-case over the last decade, but I never knew that it was part of a more "user-friendly" imaging campaign. Also explains why my town is slowly replacing blades (in ALL CAPS and showing a city logo on them) with more generic mixed caps lettering (Does this Federal mandate also prohibit the use of city logos -- like the Statue of Liberty in NYC -- on street blades as well???)
That style seen in the NYC photo looks so "cheap looking".
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Duke87 on October 01, 2010, 08:15:13 PM
Post by: Duke87 on October 01, 2010, 08:15:13 PM
So, once again, the city of New York has to spend money to replace all of its perfectly good street signs because someone complains about them not being technically MUTCD-compliant. :-|
(the color-coded ones had to start being replaced ca. 1980 for the same reason)
(the color-coded ones had to start being replaced ca. 1980 for the same reason)
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 01, 2010, 08:18:29 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 01, 2010, 08:18:29 PM
I'll bet a lot of smaller towns are going to say "screw that" and keep using their embossed 1930s signs.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: iwishiwascanadian on October 01, 2010, 09:35:39 PM
Post by: iwishiwascanadian on October 01, 2010, 09:35:39 PM
I love the street signs in NYC, the Clearview ones sucks. I'm not a big fan of Clearview unless its on BGS's and even then I'm not the biggest fan. Perhaps the city will sell off all of the signs they have to replace, but that's a glass half full approach to all of this.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Zmapper on October 01, 2010, 09:46:23 PM
Post by: Zmapper on October 01, 2010, 09:46:23 PM
It is a pity they are wasting 27 million on signs that do not include braille so everyone can read the sign! :pan:
Plus ... I like the upper-case sign better. I fail to see how the mixed case is more visible.
Plus ... I like the upper-case sign better. I fail to see how the mixed case is more visible.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: NJRoadfan on October 01, 2010, 09:56:14 PM
Post by: NJRoadfan on October 01, 2010, 09:56:14 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on October 01, 2010, 08:10:06 PM
The article does say that the Feds want NYC, and I assume every other town in America, to be totally converted by 2018. I didn't even know of this rule/requirement until now, and it's been on the books for 7 years already?!?!? Clearview was only a twinkle in a sign-maker's eye in 2003, so I would call shenanigans on the Clearview requirement as well.
Granted I have seen more municipalities moving over to Mixed-case over the last decade, but I never knew that it was part of a more "user-friendly" imaging campaign. Also explains why my town is slowly replacing blades (in ALL CAPS and showing a city logo on them) with more generic mixed caps lettering (Does this Federal mandate also prohibit the use of city logos -- like the Statue of Liberty in NYC -- on street blades as well???)
This would explain the new mixed case ground mounted signs I have been seeing on NJDOT maintained roads. Traditionally ground mounted signs at intersections in NJ such as this one ("WEST TRENTON") use all upper case letters:
(https://www.aaroads.com/northeast/new_jersey001/nj-029_nb_at_nj-175.jpg)
New signs are popping up with mixed case. Same goes for the small signs along the highways listing mileage to control cities. Example:
(https://www.aaroads.com/northeast/new_jersey200/i-295_nb_exit_004_04.jpg)
Was there some sort of study that said mixed case was easier to read or something?
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Dougtone on October 01, 2010, 10:12:14 PM
Post by: Dougtone on October 01, 2010, 10:12:14 PM
Quote from: mightyace on October 01, 2010, 07:06:40 PMQuote from: burgess87 on October 01, 2010, 07:03:00 PM
Hey, hey, hey . . . . I'm not a regular reader of the Post . . . who am I to know what kind of reputation it has?
I've never read the New York Post yet I know of their "reputation". :-D
Alexander Hamilton would be rolling in his grave if he knew what the Post has become.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Ian on October 01, 2010, 10:20:20 PM
Post by: Ian on October 01, 2010, 10:20:20 PM
I don't want to know what a mixed case Massachusetts paddle sign would look like X-(
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Dougtone on October 01, 2010, 10:25:12 PM
Post by: Dougtone on October 01, 2010, 10:25:12 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on October 01, 2010, 08:10:06 PM
The article does say that the Feds want NYC, and I assume every other town in America, to be totally converted by 2018. I didn't even know of this rule/requirement until now, and it's been on the books for 7 years already?!?!? Clearview was only a twinkle in a sign-maker's eye in 2003, so I would call shenanigans on the Clearview requirement as well.
Granted I have seen more municipalities moving over to Mixed-case over the last decade, but I never knew that it was part of a more "user-friendly" imaging campaign. Also explains why my town is slowly replacing blades (in ALL CAPS and showing a city logo on them) with more generic mixed caps lettering (Does this Federal mandate also prohibit the use of city logos -- like the Statue of Liberty in NYC -- on street blades as well???)
That style seen in the NYC photo looks so "cheap looking".
The Clearview comment in the article is indeed bogus. However, I think some DOTs, municipalities, etc. are going with the assumption that the Clearview font may one day be mandatory for all signs, which is why I think NYCDOT is going that route. On the flip side, NYCDOT replaces thousands of blade signs a year normally, so I don't find this to be a big deal as some people are making it out to be.
Also, I've noticed in some of the NYSDOT regions located in Upstate NY that are replacing blade signage with signs that contain mixed case font, but they are using FHWA Series B or C font, not Clearview. I don't think NYSDOT will convert to Clearview until they have to.
Finally, in my opinion, I don't think that blade signage replacement to mixed case font should have a set deadline to meet, but rather, the signage should be replaced with mixed case font when the signs are ready to be replaced. There are plenty of other things that could be fixed or replaced on the roads, and there's only so much money to go around.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Kniwt on October 01, 2010, 11:26:44 PM
Post by: Kniwt on October 01, 2010, 11:26:44 PM
Here's a somewhat less-apocalyptic version of the same story in Topeka, packed with some additional actual facts that mostly already have been noted here.
http://cjonline.com/news/local/2010-09-29/city_abiding_by_federal_mandate
And the print edition of this story got written up as an interesting example of newspaper design, thanks to its use of blade signs as the lead art:
http://apple.copydesk.org/2010/09/30/the-centerpiece-story-today-in-topeka-typography
http://cjonline.com/news/local/2010-09-29/city_abiding_by_federal_mandate
And the print edition of this story got written up as an interesting example of newspaper design, thanks to its use of blade signs as the lead art:
http://apple.copydesk.org/2010/09/30/the-centerpiece-story-today-in-topeka-typography
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: mgk920 on October 01, 2010, 11:54:56 PM
Post by: mgk920 on October 01, 2010, 11:54:56 PM
I haven't checked, but is there any requirement in the latest MUTCD regarding identifying every street at every intersection? It is a pain in the you-know-what to come up to an intersection and the only street that is identified is the one that you are on.
:poke:
Mike
:poke:
Mike
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Alps on October 02, 2010, 12:23:25 AM
Post by: Alps on October 02, 2010, 12:23:25 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on October 01, 2010, 11:54:56 PMDo not believe so. I agree - not only is it a pain, but emergency responders need to know what every turn is.
I haven't checked, but is there any requirement in the latest MUTCD regarding identifying every street at every intersection? It is a pain in the you-know-what to come up to an intersection and the only street that is identified is the one that you are on.
:poke:
Mike
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: TheStranger on October 02, 2010, 02:36:09 AM
Post by: TheStranger on October 02, 2010, 02:36:09 AM
Considering California's reluctance to ever follow federal signage standards to the letter...how many years will it be before San Francisco stops using its classic all-caps black-on-white blades?
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: myosh_tino on October 02, 2010, 03:43:36 AM
Post by: myosh_tino on October 02, 2010, 03:43:36 AM
Quote from: TheStranger on October 02, 2010, 02:36:09 AMI think hell has to freeze over before San Francisco will replace their all-caps street blades. I know of one south bay city (Los Altos) that recently installed new reflective all-caps blades. I'd wager that cash-strapped cities in California will give the new MUTCD street blade requirements the middle finger.
Considering California's reluctance to ever follow federal signage standards to the letter...how many years will it be before San Francisco stops using its classic all-caps black-on-white blades?
On a related note, I was poking around the Caltrans website and ran across an interesting letter that was sent to the FHWA regarding the new 2009 MUTCD. It's basically a complaint letter saying the wording of paragraph 1.A in section 1A.13 in the new MUTCD prohibits state agencies from modifying "Standard" statements (something Caltrans does heavily) regardless of engineering studies or judgement. Caltrans claims it will cost the state $500 million to $1 billion (which we don't have) to comply with the 2009 MUTCD if it is not given the flexibility to modify or replace "Standard" statements as it's done in the past. A few things drawing the ire of Caltrans is the requirement that down or directional arrows need to be centered over the lane and the use of arrow-per-lane or diagrammatic signage. Diagrammatic signs are hardly ever used in California and the arrow-per-lane signs don't fit on the largest California-standard guide sign (120" or 10 ft).
Link to Letter...
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/signtech/signdel/policy/201011582_LtrFHWA_2009MUTCD_Final-08-05-10.pdf
Link to Supporting Document...
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/signtech/signdel/policy/201011582_Encl_IssuesImplementingMUTCD2009.pdf
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Scott5114 on October 02, 2010, 09:40:43 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 02, 2010, 09:40:43 AM
Caltrans needs to just stop being a whiny little bitch over stuff like this. Seriously, there's a time and a place for deviating from standard, and then there's times when you need to just do what the standard is for the sake of consistency. Caltrans has this air of "our way is better!" but their justifications tend to be flimsy at best.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Alps on October 02, 2010, 11:56:54 AM
Post by: Alps on October 02, 2010, 11:56:54 AM
California has these six lane freeways with three lane exits. It's a situation really not anticipated by the MUTCD, and it's a sign that California's influence has shrunk much closer to that of any other state. I mean, look, West Virginia's school bus sign made it in, for example. They can't possibly be expected to make 100 foot wide signs just to comply with the MUTCD, so something has to give.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: kurumi on October 02, 2010, 01:50:57 PM
Post by: kurumi on October 02, 2010, 01:50:57 PM
I expected the Post article to be a lot more apoplectic; that was a little disappointing. (However, the comments were true to form.)
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: SidS1045 on October 02, 2010, 02:58:31 PM
Post by: SidS1045 on October 02, 2010, 02:58:31 PM
Quote from: Dougtone on October 01, 2010, 10:12:14 PM
Alexander Hamilton would be rolling in his grave if he knew what the Post has become.
...not to mention Dorothy Schiff.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: SidS1045 on October 02, 2010, 03:20:29 PM
Post by: SidS1045 on October 02, 2010, 03:20:29 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 01, 2010, 05:00:22 PM
The bit about Clearview is clearly bogus, since Clearview still isn't even mentioned in the 2009 MUTCD. It's still supplemental material.
Supposedly that supplemental material (the current version, finalized in 2004, is here: http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/SHSe/Alphabets.pdf) is being re-issued this fall, so I'm wondering if the FHwA folks decided to mandate Clearview in anticipation of the revision. When the current version was issued, Clearview didn't exist.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: BigMattFromTexas on October 02, 2010, 03:36:34 PM
Post by: BigMattFromTexas on October 02, 2010, 03:36:34 PM
The city's been replacing streets from caps to mixed-case. So SHERWOOD WY became Sherwood Wy. I actually don't mind the change, but I think New York shouldn't have to change all of its signs.. I don't see a big difference in the signs from caps to mixed, although I do think CAPS is a little easier to see.
BigMatt
BigMatt
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Duke87 on October 02, 2010, 10:17:35 PM
Post by: Duke87 on October 02, 2010, 10:17:35 PM
Quote from: BigMatt on October 02, 2010, 03:36:34 PM
SHERWOOD WY became Sherwood Wy.
Okay, that's bad. Postal codes are supposed to be in caps, so even on mixed-case the sign, it should be "Sherwood, WY" (though we can let omission of the comma slide)
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: BigMattFromTexas on October 02, 2010, 10:30:49 PM
Post by: BigMattFromTexas on October 02, 2010, 10:30:49 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on October 02, 2010, 10:17:35 PMQuote from: BigMatt on October 02, 2010, 03:36:34 PM
SHERWOOD WY became Sherwood Wy.
Okay, that's bad. Postal codes are supposed to be in caps, so even on mixed-case the sign, it should be "Sherwood, WY" (though we can let omission of the comma slide)
I mean Sherwood Way. It's abbreviated "Wy" here...
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Scott5114 on October 02, 2010, 10:37:04 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 02, 2010, 10:37:04 PM
Quote from: SidS1045 on October 02, 2010, 03:20:29 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on October 01, 2010, 05:00:22 PM
The bit about Clearview is clearly bogus, since Clearview still isn't even mentioned in the 2009 MUTCD. It's still supplemental material.
Supposedly that supplemental material (the current version, finalized in 2004, is here: http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/SHSe/Alphabets.pdf) is being re-issued this fall, so I'm wondering if the FHwA folks decided to mandate Clearview in anticipation of the revision. When the current version was issued, Clearview didn't exist.
FHWA can't really mandate anything that's not in the MUTCD. The only font that is mentioned or shown anywhere in the 2009 MUTCD is the standard FHWA Series font. Reissuing the supplemental material won't do anything until there is something in the MUTCD requiring use of Clearview.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: myosh_tino on October 03, 2010, 02:17:13 AM
Post by: myosh_tino on October 03, 2010, 02:17:13 AM
Quote from: AlpsROADS on October 02, 2010, 11:56:54 AMI agree 100% with AlpsROADS. To illustrate his point (and mine to some extent), I drew the current exit signage for northbound 101 at the 280/680 interchange in San Jose and what that sign would look like with the new arrow-per-lane diagrammatic that's required under the new MUTCD.
California has these six lane freeways with three lane exits. It's a situation really not anticipated by the MUTCD, and it's a sign that California's influence has shrunk much closer to that of any other state. I mean, look, West Virginia's school bus sign made it in, for example. They can't possibly be expected to make 100 foot wide signs just to comply with the MUTCD, so something has to give.
Current...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.markyville.com%2Faaroads%2F101-280-680.png&hash=7c129d880c7cfd4630d7176d067635904e8e39d9)
This is pretty typical in California. The guide signs are all 110" high and there are signs for the 280/680 exit, the Story Road exit which is 1/4 mile away and the 101 pull through.
Arrow-Per-Lane...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.markyville.com%2Faaroads%2F101-280-680_apl.png&hash=848e661ed14958e80fe3fe63f81e899bd7bb4165)
The guide sign (singular) is now over 162" (13 ft 6 in) high and over 82 feet in length by my rough calculations and the height does not include the exit tab.
To be honest, I was never a fan of the new arrow-per-lane signs. According to the MUTCD, the arrows alone are supposed to be 72" high which is going to result in overly tall guide signs.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: KEK Inc. on October 03, 2010, 03:36:25 AM
Post by: KEK Inc. on October 03, 2010, 03:36:25 AM
Quote from: TheStranger on October 02, 2010, 02:36:09 AM
Considering California's reluctance to ever follow federal signage standards to the letter...how many years will it be before San Francisco stops using its classic all-caps black-on-white blades?
I'm pretty sure street signing is the city's and county's jurisidiction. Some cities don't even use the two typefaces (FHWA/Clearview), and obviously colors vary.
San Jose uses navy blue.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi205.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb153%2FKEK_INC%2FRoad%2520signs%2FSanJoseStreetLighting.png&hash=880825e84d1660accc843d156f04ce7a8793405a)
Santa Clara County uses light blue.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi205.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb153%2FKEK_INC%2FRoad%2520signs%2FSantaClaraCtylighting.png&hash=b7cd4ab7ab58da13f8b105558a30baf17e8d6dcc)
Vancouver, WA, uses green with the city logo...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi205.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb153%2FKEK_INC%2FRoad%2520signs%2FVancouverStreetLighting.png&hash=e8ae6e8adb2ac045231663ce2c0341cb90a1cfed)
Clark County (WA) uses yellow.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi205.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb153%2FKEK_INC%2FRoad%2520signs%2FClarkCtylighting.png&hash=cd29770423197b20a978a076d3f27e3ad993dfe5)
Quote from: myosh_tino on October 03, 2010, 02:17:13 AMCalifornia could always use the Washington/European or tubular sign gantry more often. California actually uses tubulars quite a bit, but they still obsess over sign height. I like seeing more variety, but I think tubulars look more sleek and modern.
I agree 100% with AlpsROADS. To illustrate his point (and mine to some extent), I drew the current exit signage for northbound 101 at the 280/680 interchange in San Jose and what that sign would look like with the new arrow-per-lane diagrammatic that's required under the new MUTCD.
Current...
http://www.markyville.com/aaroads/101-280-680.png
This is pretty typical in California. The guide signs are all 110" high and there are signs for the 280/680 exit, the Story Road exit which is 1/4 mile away and the 101 pull through.
Arrow-Per-Lane...
http://www.markyville.com/aaroads/101-280-680_apl.png
The guide sign (singular) is now over 162" (13 ft 6 in) high and over 82 feet in length by my rough calculations and the height does not include the exit tab.This monstrosity would probably collapse the current sign bridge which is designed to handle 120" high (10 ft) guide signsOK, maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration but this sign is a monstrosity and there is a significant amount of green space that is wasted on a sign of this size. You'll also notice that the Story Road advance guide sign is missing. I supposed it could be inserted on the right side of the 101 pull through portion of the sign. The sheer size of this sign is a big fail in my book.
To be honest, I was never a fan of the new arrow-per-lane signs. According to the MUTCD, the arrows alone are supposed to be 72" high which is going to result in overly tall guide signs.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi205.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb153%2FKEK_INC%2FRoad%2520signs%2FCA-156.png&hash=e2fa236dc7ccbd3194dff900181bb1b8eaece972)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi205.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb153%2FKEK_INC%2FRoad%2520signs%2FI-15IE.png&hash=9f99999192cd1a1245a249540283da87f6b19d24)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi205.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb153%2FKEK_INC%2FI-15ex18.png&hash=a452753ab36a5c3153461718a1a88a12984e1280)
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: NJRoadfan on October 03, 2010, 03:39:22 AM
Post by: NJRoadfan on October 03, 2010, 03:39:22 AM
I'd just be happy if California learned how to put exit tabs on their signs. They like using all kinds of excuses for why they put the tab in the BGS (like above post shows), but that hasn't stopped other states from just tacking the tab on top of an old existing sign (example, exit tabs are new, sign originally had no tabs, overhead lights had to be removed: http://www.alpsroads.net/roads/nj/nj_24/e9.jpg ). One common excuse by Caltrans is that there would be problems with the sign and wind due to gantry design..... then why do BRAND NEW gantry installations still have signs with the exit tab inside the upper right corner of the BGS (instead of a proper tab mounted on top)? Also why does Caltrans continue to limit themselves to that 110" BGS standard on NEWLY BUILT gantries?
I'll be honest, I don't like the new arrow per lane standard... its more confusing then the graphic arrow installs I have seen (which seem mostly unused in Cali because of that silly 110" height restriction). Also, most states have the yellow 'exit only" legend surround the arrows for those lanes to make it a bit clearer.
I'll be honest, I don't like the new arrow per lane standard... its more confusing then the graphic arrow installs I have seen (which seem mostly unused in Cali because of that silly 110" height restriction). Also, most states have the yellow 'exit only" legend surround the arrows for those lanes to make it a bit clearer.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: KEK Inc. on October 03, 2010, 04:33:15 AM
Post by: KEK Inc. on October 03, 2010, 04:33:15 AM
Caltrans' wind excuse is bullocks...
Nevada and Arizona use the same exact type of gantries with external tabs.
(https://www.aaroads.com/west/nevada015/i-015_nb_exit_036_04.jpg)
(https://www.aaroads.com/west/arizona010/i-010_eb_exit_112_05.jpg)
And of course, the external beta exit tabs used in the 70s in LA didn't have any issues. Caltrans probably did it for cost and aesthetics (it's arguable... lol).
Nevada and Arizona use the same exact type of gantries with external tabs.
(https://www.aaroads.com/west/nevada015/i-015_nb_exit_036_04.jpg)
(https://www.aaroads.com/west/arizona010/i-010_eb_exit_112_05.jpg)
And of course, the external beta exit tabs used in the 70s in LA didn't have any issues. Caltrans probably did it for cost and aesthetics (it's arguable... lol).
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: J N Winkler on October 03, 2010, 08:47:03 AM
Post by: J N Winkler on October 03, 2010, 08:47:03 AM
Quote from: myosh_tino on October 02, 2010, 03:43:36 AMOn a related note, I was poking around the Caltrans website and ran across an interesting letter that was sent to the FHWA regarding the new 2009 MUTCD. It's basically a complaint letter saying the wording of paragraph 1.A in section 1A.13 in the new MUTCD prohibits state agencies from modifying "Standard" statements (something Caltrans does heavily) regardless of engineering studies or judgement. Caltrans claims it will cost the state $500 million to $1 billion (which we don't have) to comply with the 2009 MUTCD if it is not given the flexibility to modify or replace "Standard" statements as it's done in the past. A few things drawing the ire of Caltrans is the requirement that down or directional arrows need to be centered over the lane and the use of arrow-per-lane or diagrammatic signage. Diagrammatic signs are hardly ever used in California and the arrow-per-lane signs don't fit on the largest California-standard guide sign (120" or 10 ft).
Link to Letter...
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/signtech/signdel/policy/201011582_LtrFHWA_2009MUTCD_Final-08-05-10.pdf
Link to Supporting Document...
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/signtech/signdel/policy/201011582_Encl_IssuesImplementingMUTCD2009.pdf
Question: did Caltrans mention any of these considerations in its MUTCD rulemaking submission? If they didn't, then I don't see that they have a leg to stand on.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: myosh_tino on October 03, 2010, 11:30:00 AM
Post by: myosh_tino on October 03, 2010, 11:30:00 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 03, 2010, 08:47:03 AMNot sure what you mean by "rulemaking submission" but Caltrans is working on a new MUTCD that incorporates the 2009 federal version but it's still incomplete.
Question: did Caltrans mention any of these considerations in its MUTCD rulemaking submission? If they didn't, then I don't see that they have a leg to stand on.
Quote from: NJRoadfan on October 03, 2010, 03:39:22 AMThat will probably become more common in the future here in California as Caltrans has included new 26" Exit Only panels which can accommodate a slanted up-and-right arrow within the yellow field.
Also, most states have the yellow 'exit only" legend surround the arrows for those lanes to make it a bit clearer.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: The Premier on October 03, 2010, 07:39:20 PM
Post by: The Premier on October 03, 2010, 07:39:20 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on October 03, 2010, 04:33:15 AM
Caltrans' wind excuse is bullocks...
That's probably because their sign bridges are just too old.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: J N Winkler on October 04, 2010, 05:24:00 AM
Post by: J N Winkler on October 04, 2010, 05:24:00 AM
Quote from: myosh_tino on October 03, 2010, 11:30:00 AMQuote from: J N Winkler on October 03, 2010, 08:47:03 AMQuestion: did Caltrans mention any of these considerations in its MUTCD rulemaking submission? If they didn't, then I don't see that they have a leg to stand on.
Not sure what you mean by "rulemaking submission" but Caltrans is working on a new MUTCD that incorporates the 2009 federal version but it's still incomplete.
What I mean is that the 2009 MUTCD, to which Caltrans now objects so vehemently, is the outcome of a rulemaking process (held over much of 2008) during the course of which Caltrans, along with every other state DOT and members of the general public, had full opportunity to express its views on the proposed changes. Caltrans argues that the provisions it objects to were introduced in the 2009 MUTCD. So where was Caltrans during the rulemaking process?
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: TheStranger on October 04, 2010, 11:13:01 AM
Post by: TheStranger on October 04, 2010, 11:13:01 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 04, 2010, 05:24:00 AM
What I mean is that the 2009 MUTCD, to which Caltrans now objects so vehemently, is the outcome of a rulemaking process (held over much of 2008) during the course of which Caltrans, along with every other state DOT and members of the general public, had full opportunity to express its views on the proposed changes. Caltrans argues that the provisions it objects to were introduced in the 2009 MUTCD. So where was Caltrans during the rulemaking process?
It seems though like this is far from the first time that California has reacted to the federal MUTCD in such fashion, leading me to wonder when this systemic philosophy started - back in '71 perhaps when they rejected exit numbering after the LA experiment?
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: J N Winkler on October 04, 2010, 01:18:50 PM
Post by: J N Winkler on October 04, 2010, 01:18:50 PM
To be fair to Caltrans, it could very well be that they became accustomed to relying on the clause which specifies that the MUTCD does not override engineering judgment, and failed to notice FHWA's proposal to remove this clause. But Caltrans Traffic Branch is paid to notice things like this. Did they or didn't they?
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: J N Winkler on October 05, 2010, 06:32:01 AM
Post by: J N Winkler on October 05, 2010, 06:32:01 AM
I have had a look through Caltrans' material, FHWA MUTCD 2003, and FHWA MUTCD 2009 to evaluate Caltrans' case. The reference to § 1A.09 in the 2003 MUTCD in Director McKim's letter is a bit of a red herring--the letter makes it sound like that section was dumped from the 2009 MUTCD, when in fact it has the same section number and more or less the same wording in the 2003 and 2009 editions.
Essentially, Caltrans is objecting to the change in wording in how "Standard" statements are defined. The relevant language was moved during the course of the MUTCD revision, to put the definitions of MUTCD statements (Standard, Guidance, Option, Support) in the general definitions section of § 1A.13. Previously they had been in the Introduction, which is not partitioned into sections like the rest of the manual; in the 2003 MUTCD the definition of a Standard statement was itself part of the third Standard statement in the Introduction.
The 2003 language was as follows:
The 2009 edition changes this to:
Did FHWA describe this change in its Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (which was published in the Federal Register on January 2, 2008)? I find no evidence that they did so. Where the introduction is concerned, FHWA's summary of its proposed changes jumps straight from the first Standard statement in the Introduction to the fourth Standard statement. FHWA's description of its proposed changes for § 1A.13 likewise makes no mention of any proposed change to the definition of Standard statements.
I cannot gauge the extent of Caltrans' opportunity to make itself aware of any change to the definition of a Standard statement FHWA might have proposed, because I did not save a copy of the proposed text and figures, which are now no longer online and are not retrievable through the Web Archive. But based on the NPRM alone, Caltrans can make a very good prima facie claim that it was blindsided by this change.
I have posted the following on the FHWA MUTCD bulletin board:
I don't know how closely FHWA monitors the discussion group, or if this posting will draw a constructive response. There are a few very intelligent contributors but most of the people who post there are dumber than a box of hammers.
Essentially, Caltrans is objecting to the change in wording in how "Standard" statements are defined. The relevant language was moved during the course of the MUTCD revision, to put the definitions of MUTCD statements (Standard, Guidance, Option, Support) in the general definitions section of § 1A.13. Previously they had been in the Introduction, which is not partitioned into sections like the rest of the manual; in the 2003 MUTCD the definition of a Standard statement was itself part of the third Standard statement in the Introduction.
The 2003 language was as follows:
QuoteStandard–a statement of required, mandatory, or specifically prohibitive practice regarding a traffic control device. All standards are labeled, and the text appears in bold type. The verb shall is typically used. Standards are sometimes modified by Options.
The 2009 edition changes this to:
QuoteStandard–a statement of required, mandatory, or specifically prohibitive practice regarding a traffic control device. All Standard statements are labeled, and the text appears in bold type. The verb "shall" is typically used. The verbs "should" and "may" are not used in Standard statements. Standard statements are sometimes modified by Options. Standard statements shall not be modified or compromised based on engineering judgment or engineering study.
Did FHWA describe this change in its Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (which was published in the Federal Register on January 2, 2008)? I find no evidence that they did so. Where the introduction is concerned, FHWA's summary of its proposed changes jumps straight from the first Standard statement in the Introduction to the fourth Standard statement. FHWA's description of its proposed changes for § 1A.13 likewise makes no mention of any proposed change to the definition of Standard statements.
I cannot gauge the extent of Caltrans' opportunity to make itself aware of any change to the definition of a Standard statement FHWA might have proposed, because I did not save a copy of the proposed text and figures, which are now no longer online and are not retrievable through the Web Archive. But based on the NPRM alone, Caltrans can make a very good prima facie claim that it was blindsided by this change.
I have posted the following on the FHWA MUTCD bulletin board:
QuoteThe 2009 MUTCD has been out for almost a year and some agencies are starting to report being blindsided by changes which were not mentioned in the January 2, 2008 NPRM.
For example, there is now a new (to 2009) provision, added to the definitions section (§ 1A.13), that Standard statements shall not be modified on the basis of engineering judgment or engineering study. This is not mentioned in the NPRM. Before the 2009 MUTCD, the definition of a Standard statement was the third Standard statement in the Introduction, and the NPRM jumps straight from the first to the fourth Standard statement in its description of changes to the Introduction. The summary of proposed changes to § 1A.13 in the NPRM likewise does not mention the addition of material moved from the Introduction, or any change in the definition of a Standard statement.
The 2008 rulemaking materials (proposed text, proposed figures, and accompanying changelists) are no longer online and are not retrievable through the Web Archive. Therefore, the only easily available item which shows what was proposed in 2008 is the NPRM, which clearly is incomplete with respect to the changes which actually appeared in the 2009 MUTCD. It would be helpful to have the rulemaking materials back to gauge the extent to which changes not mentioned in the NPRM were shown in the proposed text and figures.
I don't know how closely FHWA monitors the discussion group, or if this posting will draw a constructive response. There are a few very intelligent contributors but most of the people who post there are dumber than a box of hammers.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: myosh_tino on October 05, 2010, 04:03:30 PM
Post by: myosh_tino on October 05, 2010, 04:03:30 PM
Thank you J N Winkler for doing much of the legwork on this issue. I would be very interested to see if you get any meaningful responses to your post on the FHWA MUTCD board.
It also looks like Caltrans has started to post draft revisions for the 2011 California MUTCD section by section. Currently only Parts 1A, 5 and 9 are available for review and public comment. Interestingly enough they did post a draft of Part 1A which includes the disputed Sec 1A.13. The section is left pretty much intact except the last statement -- "Standard statements shall not be modified or compromised based on engineering judgment or engineering study" -- has been crossed out and highlighted in red in the right margin (all other changes are highlighted in blue in the right margin). I suspect the rest of the sections will be made available shortly but that may depend on the response Caltrans gets from the FHWA.
Link to the Draft 2011 California MUTCD webpage...
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/signtech/mutcdsupp/ca_mutcd2011_draftrevisions.htm
It also looks like Caltrans has started to post draft revisions for the 2011 California MUTCD section by section. Currently only Parts 1A, 5 and 9 are available for review and public comment. Interestingly enough they did post a draft of Part 1A which includes the disputed Sec 1A.13. The section is left pretty much intact except the last statement -- "Standard statements shall not be modified or compromised based on engineering judgment or engineering study" -- has been crossed out and highlighted in red in the right margin (all other changes are highlighted in blue in the right margin). I suspect the rest of the sections will be made available shortly but that may depend on the response Caltrans gets from the FHWA.
Link to the Draft 2011 California MUTCD webpage...
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/signtech/mutcdsupp/ca_mutcd2011_draftrevisions.htm
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: J N Winkler on October 05, 2010, 05:24:04 PM
Post by: J N Winkler on October 05, 2010, 05:24:04 PM
Myosh_tino--you're welcome.
I did get a few good replies here:
http://knowledge.fhwa.dot.gov/cops/opspublic.nsf/discussionDisplay?Open&id=5574370D95D0BDD4852577B300390763&Group=MUTCD%20General&tab=DISCUSSION#5574370D95D0BDD4852577B300390763
One of them included a link to Richard Moeur's site, which not only has the proposed text, but also a direct link to the MUTCD rulemaking submissions:
http://www.trafficsign.us/npa.html
The proposed text also did not show any change in the definition of a Standard statement. It shows the Standard statement at its old location (in the Introduction) with essentially the same text as in 2003.
I also checked out Caltrans' submissions to the rulemaking notice. There were two that I could find. One came from Caltrans' Office of Maintenance and dealt with adopt-a-highway signs. The other was sent by the head of Signs & Markings and called for a supplementary Notice of Proposed Amendments in order to allow the various issues to be dealt with more fully. The letter did not descend to the level of detail, noting just that the NCUTCD's own detailed comments had amounted to 771 pages.
I did get a few good replies here:
http://knowledge.fhwa.dot.gov/cops/opspublic.nsf/discussionDisplay?Open&id=5574370D95D0BDD4852577B300390763&Group=MUTCD%20General&tab=DISCUSSION#5574370D95D0BDD4852577B300390763
One of them included a link to Richard Moeur's site, which not only has the proposed text, but also a direct link to the MUTCD rulemaking submissions:
http://www.trafficsign.us/npa.html
The proposed text also did not show any change in the definition of a Standard statement. It shows the Standard statement at its old location (in the Introduction) with essentially the same text as in 2003.
I also checked out Caltrans' submissions to the rulemaking notice. There were two that I could find. One came from Caltrans' Office of Maintenance and dealt with adopt-a-highway signs. The other was sent by the head of Signs & Markings and called for a supplementary Notice of Proposed Amendments in order to allow the various issues to be dealt with more fully. The letter did not descend to the level of detail, noting just that the NCUTCD's own detailed comments had amounted to 771 pages.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: burgess87 on October 05, 2010, 10:02:31 PM
Post by: burgess87 on October 05, 2010, 10:02:31 PM
I found this on the MUTCD website: http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/
Quote from: MUTCD WebpageSTREET NAME SIGNS AND LETTERING STYLES – COMPLIANCE WITH THE MUTCD
In response to technical inquiries regarding certain provisions of the MUTCD as they relate to both Street Name signs and the requirement to display destination and street names in mixed-case lettering, the following clarifications are provided:
* There is no compliance date by which Street Name or other guide signs must be replaced for the sole purpose of changing a destination or street name composed of all upper-case letters to a combination of upper- and lower-case letters (2009 MUTCD Section 2A.13, Paragraph 11 and Section 2D.43, Paragraph 3).
* The only compliance dates that apply specifically to Street Name signs were established by previous editions of the MUTCD and deal with minimum letter heights only, not letter style or case. These dates are summarized in Table I-2 of the Introduction to the 2009 MUTCD and as follows:
o January 9, 2012 – Minimum 6-inch letter height for post-mounted Street Name signs (except on multi-lane streets with speed limits greater than 40 mph). (Established by the 2000 MUTCD, Section 2D.38.)
o December 22, 2018 – Minimum 8-inch letter height for post-mounted Street Name signs on multi-lane streets with speed limits greater than 40 mph and 12-inch letter height for overhead-mounted Street Name signs. (Established by the 2003 MUTCD, Section 2D.38.)
Signs that were replaced prior to the adoption of the 2009 MUTCD to meet these requirements–but used all upper-case lettering–do not need to be replaced again for the purpose of meeting the 2009 MUTCD requirement for mixed-case lettering. However, new signs that are installed after the adoption of the 2009 MUTCD must meet the mixed-case display requirement. Therefore, if signs are now being replaced to meet the minimum letter height requirements established by prior editions of the MUTCD, for example, these signs must also meet the 2009 MUTCD requirement for the display of the street name using a combination of upper- and lower-case letters.
A detailed explanation of compliance is provided in Paragraphs 20-24 of the Introduction to the 2009 MUTCD.
* The 2009 MUTCD continues to specify the FHWA Standard Alphabets for use on all traffic signs. There are no requirements or recommendations to use any alternative lettering style to the Standard Alphabets. Further, the use of the Clearview alternative lettering style is subject to the terms of an Interim Approval, which was issued based on a modest legibility improvement under certain nighttime viewing conditions for mixed-case destination legends composed of Series 5-W of this alternative alphabet on signs using microprismatic retroreflective sheeting in a positive-contrast color orientation only. According to the same study, there was also an improvement in the nighttime legibility of the Standard Alphabet Series E(m) when microprismatic retroreflective sheeting was used on the test signs. Agencies wishing to use the alternative lettering style must still seek approval from the FHWA.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: myosh_tino on October 05, 2010, 11:28:20 PM
Post by: myosh_tino on October 05, 2010, 11:28:20 PM
Yes, I saw that too today while I was composing my previous post to JN Winkler. While it does seem to "clarify" certain issues, it doesn't address some of the points made on these boards about what to do with those cities that have iconic street blades like San Francisco's all-caps black-on-white street blades. In San Francisco's case, the point is moot for now since California has not formally adopted the 2009 MUTCD and probably won't until 2011 or 2012.
The end result for cities like San Francisco is to replace damaged and/or aging blades with new ones using the current style before California adopts an amended version of the 2009 MUTCD. That is assuming, of course, that California doesn't strike the mixed-case requirement from its version of the MUTCD.
The end result for cities like San Francisco is to replace damaged and/or aging blades with new ones using the current style before California adopts an amended version of the 2009 MUTCD. That is assuming, of course, that California doesn't strike the mixed-case requirement from its version of the MUTCD.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Scott5114 on October 06, 2010, 06:59:40 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 06, 2010, 06:59:40 AM
San Francisco's blades are "wrong" according to the MUTCD anyway, with or without the all-caps issue. White on black has always been reserved for regulatory signage. The 2009 MUTCD is stricter on this, limiting cities to white on green, blue, or brown only to reserve the "important" colors like yellow, white, and red for their intended purposes.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: MichiganDriver on October 06, 2010, 01:21:38 PM
Post by: MichiganDriver on October 06, 2010, 01:21:38 PM
I hope the FHWA tells CA to shove it. First, the one arrow per lane rule is one of the biggest improvements. Second, in far too many ways, CA needs to be dragged kicked and screaming into the 21st century.
slow down when you type
Black on white is still allowed in the 2009 MUTCD
slow down when you type
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 06, 2010, 06:59:40 AM
San Francisco's blades are "wrong" according to the MUTCD anyway, with or without the all-caps issue. White on black has always been reserved for regulatory signage. The 2009 MUTCD is stricter on this, limiting cities to white on green, blue, or brown only to reserve the "important" colors like yellow, white, and red for their intended purposes.
Black on white is still allowed in the 2009 MUTCD
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: cu2010 on October 06, 2010, 02:27:03 PM
Post by: cu2010 on October 06, 2010, 02:27:03 PM
The local news (http://rochesterhomepage.net/fulltext?nxd_id=209795) the other night had a piece on Rochester's changeover...and officials don't exactly seem happy about it (not to mention people never really noticed until somebody said something about it).
Why are we wasting money on this? I agree that there need to be some standards, but street blade signage should be left alone...they can provide some character to otherwise boring streets (especially in the North Country region of NY, where many towns still have many old embossed signs still in the field)
Interesting, though, is that Rochester's new signs still have the "RD" in all caps...which looks better than "Rd". The signs are still way too large, though.
Why are we wasting money on this? I agree that there need to be some standards, but street blade signage should be left alone...they can provide some character to otherwise boring streets (especially in the North Country region of NY, where many towns still have many old embossed signs still in the field)
Interesting, though, is that Rochester's new signs still have the "RD" in all caps...which looks better than "Rd". The signs are still way too large, though.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: iwishiwascanadian on October 06, 2010, 05:53:57 PM
Post by: iwishiwascanadian on October 06, 2010, 05:53:57 PM
Quote from: iwishiwascanadian on October 01, 2010, 09:35:39 PM
I love the street signs in NYC, the Clearview ones sucks. I'm not a big fan of Clearview unless its on BGS's and even then I'm not the biggest fan. Perhaps the city will sell off all of the signs they have to replace, but that's a glass half full approach to all of this.
I got a response from the city that goes along the lines of this:
Quote
Dear Mr. Carter:
Thank you for your email concerning the replacement of street signs.
The Federal Highway Administration's Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD) is recognized as the national standard for all traffic control devices. In January 2008, the MUTCD was revised to require that street name signs meet a higher standard for reflecting light, making them easier to read in low-light and nighttime conditions, which improves traffic safety.
The MUTCD also requires that when a street name sign that uses all upper case lettering is being replaced or refurbished because it is damaged, missing or no longer serviceable for any reason, the replacement sign must have lettering that is both upper and lower case. This is also considered easier to read. These changes must be implemented by 2018.
The New York City Department of Transportation normally refurbishes or replaces 7,500 street name signs a year as they become worn, damaged or missing, at an annual cost of $825,000. In the next two years we will be replacing 15,000 signs per year at an annual cost of $1.65 million. The Department receives funding from New York State for these replacements. The new signs will use the Clearview font, which meets the MUTCD standard and has been demonstrated to improve readability, especially for older motorists. The total cost for replacing all 250,000 street name signs to comply with federal MUTCD standards is anticipated to be $27.5 million ($110 per sign).
Part of the cost of upgrading the signs will be offset by selling most of the removed signs in bulk for their aluminum value. While selling individual removed signs is impractical, anyone interested in owning an authentic New York City street name sign can purchase one via our sign sales program. Details can be found at http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/signs/cmsigns.shtml
Thank you for your concern in this matter.
NYC DOT
Division of Customer Service
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: thenetwork on October 06, 2010, 07:43:59 PM
Post by: thenetwork on October 06, 2010, 07:43:59 PM
Quote from: iwishiwascanadian on October 06, 2010, 05:53:57 PMQuote from: iwishiwascanadian on October 01, 2010, 09:35:39 PM
I love the street signs in NYC, the Clearview ones sucks. I'm not a big fan of Clearview unless its on BGS's and even then I'm not the biggest fan. Perhaps the city will sell off all of the signs they have to replace, but that's a glass half full approach to all of this.
I got a response from the city that goes along the lines of this:Quote
The total cost for replacing all 250,000 street name signs to comply with federal MUTCD standards is anticipated to be $27.5 million ($110 per sign).
I assume that the $110 includes all parts & labor since at the website below:
QuoteDetails can be found at http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/signs/cmsigns.shtml
You can get a street blade for about $40 + shipping. That might be worth looking at. :nod:
And if you look under the ROAD SIGNS link, they'll try to sell you a replica US Route 66 sign for $68.00.
A US Route 66 sign from NYC?!?!??? Blasphemous!!! :pan:
And a "Classic Interstate Shield" is NOT neutered!!! :banghead:
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: nyratk1 on October 06, 2010, 11:57:10 PM
Post by: nyratk1 on October 06, 2010, 11:57:10 PM
They also have an option for other numbers so you can do US 1 or US 9 - the only US routes in NYC
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 06, 2010, 11:59:54 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 06, 2010, 11:59:54 PM
don't forget US-7, which ran there until 1928, I believe. Also, US-9E, which was the original number for US-9, until the early 30s if I recall correctly.
New York US 7 would be one of the toughest route markers to find. I've never seen one. Or a 9E. Or a 2 for that matter.
New York US 7 would be one of the toughest route markers to find. I've never seen one. Or a 9E. Or a 2 for that matter.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Scott5114 on October 07, 2010, 01:10:00 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 07, 2010, 01:10:00 AM
Quote from: MichiganDriver on October 06, 2010, 01:21:38 PM
Black on white is still allowed in the 2009 MUTCD
Ah, so it is. That's kind of odd. I would have thought they would have disallowed it for the same reasons they disallowed using yellow, red, orange, et al.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: myosh_tino on October 07, 2010, 01:55:59 AM
Post by: myosh_tino on October 07, 2010, 01:55:59 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 07, 2010, 01:10:00 AMIf yellow is not allowed, how do you explain the example street blade/street sign KEK drew in an earlier post...Quote from: MichiganDriver on October 06, 2010, 01:21:38 PM
Black on white is still allowed in the 2009 MUTCD
Ah, so it is. That's kind of odd. I would have thought they would have disallowed it for the same reasons they disallowed using yellow, red, orange, et al.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi205.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb153%2FKEK_INC%2FRoad%2520signs%2FClarkCtylighting.png&hash=cd29770423197b20a978a076d3f27e3ad993dfe5)
I believe he says this is the standard for Clark County in Washington. Could you clarify KEK?
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: SidS1045 on October 07, 2010, 11:22:15 AM
Post by: SidS1045 on October 07, 2010, 11:22:15 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 02, 2010, 10:37:04 PM
FHWA can't really mandate anything that's not in the MUTCD. The only font that is mentioned or shown anywhere in the 2009 MUTCD is the standard FHWA Series font. Reissuing the supplemental material won't do anything until there is something in the MUTCD requiring use of Clearview.
Lawyer: They can't put you in jail for that!
Client: Then why am I in jail?
Let's not forget who we're dealing with here. Federal agencies do what they want. The fact that they occasionally do the right thing is nice, but not a requirement (in their eyes).
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: MichiganDriver on October 07, 2010, 12:08:05 PM
Post by: MichiganDriver on October 07, 2010, 12:08:05 PM
Quote from: myosh_tino on October 07, 2010, 01:55:59 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on October 07, 2010, 01:10:00 AMIf yellow is not allowed, how do you explain the example street blade/street sign KEK drew in an earlier post...Quote from: MichiganDriver on October 06, 2010, 01:21:38 PM
Black on white is still allowed in the 2009 MUTCD
Ah, so it is. That's kind of odd. I would have thought they would have disallowed it for the same reasons they disallowed using yellow, red, orange, et al.
I believe he says this is the standard for Clark County in Washington. Could you clarify KEK?
Streets signs could be any color before the 2009 MUTCD
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: mgk920 on October 07, 2010, 01:05:05 PM
Post by: mgk920 on October 07, 2010, 01:05:05 PM
Quote from: cu2010 on October 06, 2010, 02:27:03 PM
The local news (http://rochesterhomepage.net/fulltext?nxd_id=209795) the other night had a piece on Rochester's changeover...and officials don't exactly seem happy about it (not to mention people never really noticed until somebody said something about it).
Why are we wasting money on this? I agree that there need to be some standards, but street blade signage should be left alone...they can provide some character to otherwise boring streets (especially in the North Country region of NY, where many towns still have many old embossed signs still in the field)
Interesting, though, is that Rochester's new signs still have the "RD" in all caps...which looks better than "Rd". The signs are still way too large, though.
IMHO, the problem was not necessarily the larger cities, which have been overall pretty good in their signing practices, it is suburban and more rural places, especially some of the more 'hoity-toity' suburbs, that use such fancy or oddball sign designs that they are pretty much impossible to find and/or read. I know of one Chicagoland suburb that uses fancy concrete obelisks with vertical lettering to identify their streets. There has also been a persistent problem in some locales with developers *INSISTING* on using their own fancy signs that may differ substantially from those normally used by the muni that their developments are in.
As for San Francisco, CA, I'm thinking that the problem with their 'black on whites' is their size. To comply, they will have to be much larger and mixed-case.
Mike
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 07, 2010, 01:09:07 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 07, 2010, 01:09:07 PM
I've never seen issue with San Francisco's white/black style. They are certainly of comparable size to others used around the country.
yuppie neighborhoods have their own reasons for perplexing signage, but that is insufficient cause to order lots of small towns to replace their perfectly functional embossed 1930s signage. Stop signs and other high-priority items - sure, replace them... but route markers, street blades, those sorts of things do not need to be kept on the bleeding edge.
yuppie neighborhoods have their own reasons for perplexing signage, but that is insufficient cause to order lots of small towns to replace their perfectly functional embossed 1930s signage. Stop signs and other high-priority items - sure, replace them... but route markers, street blades, those sorts of things do not need to be kept on the bleeding edge.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: mightyace on October 07, 2010, 01:13:04 PM
Post by: mightyace on October 07, 2010, 01:13:04 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on October 07, 2010, 01:05:05 PM
I know of one Chicagoland suburb that uses fancy concrete obelisks with vertical lettering to identify their streets.
Cuyahoga Falls, OH used to use these for their street signs. The obelisks were painted yellow with black letters.
IMHO I found them easier to read than traditional street signs as the text was larger and they were also easier to read as you did not have to take you eyes as much off the road.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: MichiganDriver on October 07, 2010, 01:43:56 PM
Post by: MichiganDriver on October 07, 2010, 01:43:56 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 07, 2010, 01:09:07 PM
I've never seen issue with San Francisco's white/black style. They are certainly of comparable size to others used around the country.
yuppie neighborhoods have their own reasons for perplexing signage, but that is insufficient cause to order lots of small towns to replace their perfectly functional embossed 1930s signage. Stop signs and other high-priority items - sure, replace them... but route markers, street blades, those sorts of things do not need to be kept on the bleeding edge.
You'll say that until you're looking for a street at night in an unfamiliar place and that 1930's signage won't seem so quaint or functional.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 07, 2010, 02:55:30 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 07, 2010, 02:55:30 PM
Quote from: MichiganDriver on October 07, 2010, 01:43:56 PM
You'll say that until you're looking for a street at night in an unfamiliar place and that 1930's signage won't seem so quaint or functional.
eh, I can find my way just fine. Usually a cursory look on Google Maps before I leave, combined with a GPS while on the road, is sufficient. If not, I'll either call someone for directions, or ask a local.
it's not exactly a crisis.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: KEK Inc. on October 07, 2010, 02:58:31 PM
Post by: KEK Inc. on October 07, 2010, 02:58:31 PM
Quote from: myosh_tino on October 07, 2010, 01:55:59 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on October 07, 2010, 01:10:00 AMIf yellow is not allowed, how do you explain the example street blade/street sign KEK drew in an earlier post...Quote from: MichiganDriver on October 06, 2010, 01:21:38 PM
Black on white is still allowed in the 2009 MUTCD
Ah, so it is. That's kind of odd. I would have thought they would have disallowed it for the same reasons they disallowed using yellow, red, orange, et al.
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb153/KEK_INC/Road%20signs/ClarkCtylighting.png
I believe he says this is the standard for Clark County in Washington. Could you clarify KEK?
Counties and cities have separate jurisdictions. This is true in Santa Clara County as well. ;)
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Hazel+Dell,+WA&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Hazel+Dell,+Hazel+Dell+South,+Clark,+Washington&gl=us&ei=PBeuTLPkF5SosQOM3bSNDA&ved=0CBcQ8gEwAA&ll=45.692508,-122.657016&spn=0.002522,0.005284&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=45.693004,-122.656644&panoid=H6Ql159XBBH8PWfESr1Vww&cbp=12,41.47,,0,-8.52
Anyways, I believe Clark County uses yellow, simply because it looks better on warning approach signs.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Hazel+Dell,+WA&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Hazel+Dell,+Hazel+Dell+South,+Clark,+Washington&gl=us&ei=PBeuTLPkF5SosQOM3bSNDA&ved=0CBcQ8gEwAA&ll=45.763092,-122.661581&spn=0.014371,0.042272&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=45.763196,-122.661568&panoid=WTjZfq42_N0qma7CbNSHXg&cbp=12,22.78,,1,0.84
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 07, 2010, 03:06:10 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 07, 2010, 03:06:10 PM
in all honesty, if you want your municipality's street blades to be more visible, call up the landscaping department.
Until you invent a font so clearly legible that it can be discerned through solid objects, stop hiding street blades behind trees.
Until you invent a font so clearly legible that it can be discerned through solid objects, stop hiding street blades behind trees.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: mightyace on October 07, 2010, 04:03:01 PM
Post by: mightyace on October 07, 2010, 04:03:01 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 07, 2010, 03:06:10 PM
Until you invent a font so clearly legible that it can be discerned through solid objects, stop hiding street blades behind trees.
That's another reason I like Cuyahoga Falls' obelisks. They were less obstructions down low to block them.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: The Premier on October 07, 2010, 04:11:29 PM
Post by: The Premier on October 07, 2010, 04:11:29 PM
Cuyahoga Falls wasn't the only area that had them. Brimfield Township had them until recently.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: deathtopumpkins on October 07, 2010, 04:26:26 PM
Post by: deathtopumpkins on October 07, 2010, 04:26:26 PM
Elizabeth City (I think), NC has obelisks too. I know i saw them in some northeastern NC town.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: SidS1045 on October 07, 2010, 04:31:12 PM
Post by: SidS1045 on October 07, 2010, 04:31:12 PM
Quote from: MichiganDriver on October 07, 2010, 01:43:56 PMQuote from: agentsteel53 on October 07, 2010, 01:09:07 PM
I've never seen issue with San Francisco's white/black style. They are certainly of comparable size to others used around the country.
yuppie neighborhoods have their own reasons for perplexing signage, but that is insufficient cause to order lots of small towns to replace their perfectly functional embossed 1930s signage. Stop signs and other high-priority items - sure, replace them... but route markers, street blades, those sorts of things do not need to be kept on the bleeding edge.
You'll say that until you're looking for a street at night in an unfamiliar place and that 1930's signage won't seem so quaint or functional.
Newton, Massachusetts is the perfect example. Their signs are black-on-gray, and even under the best street lighting they're all but invisible at night. They're probably expensive to replace as is...made of some kind of metal with raised lettering in a Roman-like font...but horrible to have to read, especially at night.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: thenetwork on October 07, 2010, 04:46:11 PM
Post by: thenetwork on October 07, 2010, 04:46:11 PM
Quote from: The Premier on October 07, 2010, 04:11:29 PM
Cuyahoga Falls wasn't the only area that had them. Brimfield Township had them until recently.
Brun-tucky....er I mean Brunswick, OH has been using white vertical lettering on brown wooden obelisks (100% non-reflective) for decades. Never liked them because they were damn near impossible to see, however the black-on-yellows in the Falls were easier to spot.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Scott5114 on October 07, 2010, 07:07:40 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 07, 2010, 07:07:40 PM
Quote from: SidS1045 on October 07, 2010, 11:22:15 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on October 02, 2010, 10:37:04 PM
FHWA can't really mandate anything that's not in the MUTCD. The only font that is mentioned or shown anywhere in the 2009 MUTCD is the standard FHWA Series font. Reissuing the supplemental material won't do anything until there is something in the MUTCD requiring use of Clearview.
Lawyer: They can't put you in jail for that!
Client: Then why am I in jail?
Let's not forget who we're dealing with here. Federal agencies do what they want. The fact that they occasionally do the right thing is nice, but not a requirement (in their eyes).
I fail to see how this is accurate or relevant at all.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Brian556 on October 07, 2010, 08:01:22 PM
Post by: Brian556 on October 07, 2010, 08:01:22 PM
Interesting...
in the 90's, The City of Lewisville, TX had 9 inch high Upper/Lower Case blades with high-intensity sheeting. They were green/white. Around 2000, they replaced them with Green/white 9-inch high, Engineer-grade sheeting, all upper case lettered signs. Seems a little back-asswards to me.
in the 90's, The City of Lewisville, TX had 9 inch high Upper/Lower Case blades with high-intensity sheeting. They were green/white. Around 2000, they replaced them with Green/white 9-inch high, Engineer-grade sheeting, all upper case lettered signs. Seems a little back-asswards to me.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: roadfro on October 10, 2010, 03:44:58 PM
Post by: roadfro on October 10, 2010, 03:44:58 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 07, 2010, 01:10:00 AMQuote from: MichiganDriver on October 06, 2010, 01:21:38 PM
Black on white is still allowed in the 2009 MUTCD
Ah, so it is. That's kind of odd. I would have thought they would have disallowed it for the same reasons they disallowed using yellow, red, orange, et al.
I believe 'black on white' street blades were added back in after FHWA received many comments requesting that particular color combination not be removed.
Of course, any new black on white street name signs installed today would have to have the larger letter size implemented in the 2003 MUTCD and have mixed-cased lettering mandated by the 2009 MUTCD. So those old, charming black on white blades wouldn't be allowed...which kinda defeats the purpose of keeping the black on white anyway.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: hbelkins on October 11, 2010, 11:31:18 AM
Post by: hbelkins on October 11, 2010, 11:31:18 AM
When the feds get to the point that they dictate coloration and lettering sizes/fonts on city street signs, then that's proof positive that the federal government is too big and too powerful and the MUTCD is too anal.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: realjd on October 11, 2010, 02:08:38 PM
Post by: realjd on October 11, 2010, 02:08:38 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on October 07, 2010, 01:05:05 PM
IMHO, the problem was not necessarily the larger cities, which have been overall pretty good in their signing practices, it is suburban and more rural places, especially some of the more 'hoity-toity' suburbs, that use such fancy or oddball sign designs that they are pretty much impossible to find and/or read. I know of one Chicagoland suburb that uses fancy concrete obelisks with vertical lettering to identify their streets. There has also been a persistent problem in some locales with developers *INSISTING* on using their own fancy signs that may differ substantially from those normally used by the muni that their developments are in.
My parents' neighborhood in Indiana had fancy carved wood street signs. The city recently went through and bolted standard green blades directly over the carved wood street names. They told everyone that it was so emergency services could actually read the street names at night.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: brownpelican on October 11, 2010, 11:20:56 PM
Post by: brownpelican on October 11, 2010, 11:20:56 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on October 03, 2010, 03:36:25 AM
I'm pretty sure street signing is the city's and county's jurisidiction. Some cities don't even use the two typefaces (FHWA/Clearview), and obviously colors vary.
I believe you are correct. In the last few years, Baton Rouge/East Baton Rouge Parish recently switched from black letters-on-white-all caps to white letters-on-light-blue-mixed caps (can't remember the Highway Gothic series font...looks like Series C to me, though their illuminated street signs are both Clearview and Series E).
Then you have this: new signs in the Old Metairie section of Metairie, La.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg545.imageshack.us%2Fimg545%2F8017%2Fhpim2667.jpg&hash=4bdd97c5d62f8bfb7ad68f9526089792df111ad8) (http://img545.imageshack.us/i/hpim2667.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Scott5114 on October 12, 2010, 12:06:16 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 12, 2010, 12:06:16 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 11, 2010, 11:31:18 AM
When the feds get to the point that they dictate coloration and lettering sizes/fonts on city street signs, then that's proof positive that the federal government is too big and too powerful and the MUTCD is too anal.
Nothing can be further from the truth. That's the point of the MUTCD. Really, I like being able to read sign blades. Anything that takes away the various Oklahoma road agencies' power to be incompetent crocks of shit helps.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: J N Winkler on October 12, 2010, 06:32:51 AM
Post by: J N Winkler on October 12, 2010, 06:32:51 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 11, 2010, 11:31:18 AM
When the feds get to the point that they dictate coloration and lettering sizes/fonts on city street signs, then that's proof positive that the federal government is too big and too powerful and the MUTCD is too anal.
You just had to get that in!
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: MichiganDriver on October 12, 2010, 06:52:10 AM
Post by: MichiganDriver on October 12, 2010, 06:52:10 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 11, 2010, 11:31:18 AM
When the feds get to the point that they dictate coloration and lettering sizes/fonts on city street signs, then that's proof positive that the federal government is too big and too powerful and the MUTCD is too anal.
Last time I checked city street signs were a traffic control device. Why the idea that city street signs being subject to some standards is bad is beyond me.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Scott5114 on October 12, 2010, 07:13:17 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 12, 2010, 07:13:17 AM
It would probably make more sense to take further discussion of this to the old Road sign fonts and states' rights (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=2686.0) thread, where this point was discussed at length. Feel free to bump with content.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: flowmotion on October 16, 2010, 12:24:27 AM
Post by: flowmotion on October 16, 2010, 12:24:27 AM
Quote from: MichiganDriver on October 12, 2010, 06:52:10 AM
Last time I checked city street signs were a traffic control device. Why the idea that city street signs being subject to some standards is bad is beyond me.
Having "some" standards or general guidelines for street signs is probably a good idea. However, I don't see the need to treat them as a "uniform" traffic control device.
Also, it seems that the more exclusive upper-class suburbs are the most likely to use fancy street signage. I have a feeling a few congressmen are going to making hay about this.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: iwishiwascanadian on October 16, 2010, 07:31:53 PM
Post by: iwishiwascanadian on October 16, 2010, 07:31:53 PM
I was in The City today and saw the new Clearview signs and they don't look too bad, I would rather have the old ones, but I won't mount a protest at City Hall.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: MichiganDriver on October 17, 2010, 11:16:02 PM
Post by: MichiganDriver on October 17, 2010, 11:16:02 PM
Quote from: flowmotion on October 16, 2010, 12:24:27 AMQuote from: MichiganDriver on October 12, 2010, 06:52:10 AM
Last time I checked city street signs were a traffic control device. Why the idea that city street signs being subject to some standards is bad is beyond me.
Having "some" standards or general guidelines for street signs is probably a good idea. However, I don't see the need to treat them as a "uniform" traffic control device.
Also, it seems that the more exclusive upper-class suburbs are the most likely to use fancy street signage. I have a feeling a few congressmen are going to making hay about this.
I suspect a major reason why the FHWA cracked down on street signs is that cities were picking them based on looks rather than whether they were legible to drivers.
Title: ALL CAPS? Not OK on road signs, federal government says
Post by: Alex on October 21, 2010, 08:18:58 PM
Post by: Alex on October 21, 2010, 08:18:58 PM
ALL CAPS? Not OK on road signs, federal government says (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-10-21-road-signs-all-caps-lowercase_N.htm)
This article factors into the earlier discussion on street signs. Feel free to split this into its own topic.
Thanks to larbearfl for sending me the article!
This article factors into the earlier discussion on street signs. Feel free to split this into its own topic.
QuoteCAN YOU READ THIS?
There, is that better?
In a nod to the fading eyesight of the nation's growing number of aging Baby Boomers, the federal government is requiring communities around the USA to change street name signs from all capital letters to a combination of capital and lowercase letters. The government says that makes them easier to read.
Cash-starved localities also will have to dig deep for new, more reflective traffic signs to make them easier to see at night, especially by older drivers.
MISSOURI: Tourists welcomed with bigger, brighter road signs
SOLAR SIGNS: More cities turn to solar power for traffic signs
Under Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) regulations, communities have until 2015 to improve the nighttime visibility of roadside signs – such as stop, yield and railroad crossing signs. The issue is how well a sign redirects light from an automobile's headlights back toward the vehicle. Signs that fail to meet minimum standards must be replaced. Communities will be allowed to change the street name signs as they wear out.
The changes are called for in the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices, an 816-page (plus appendixes) behemoth that sets standards for traffic control devices – signs, signals and pavement markings.
"As drivers get older, we want to make sure they're able to read the signs," says FHWA administrator Victor Mendez. "Research shows that older drivers are better able to read signs when they're written in both capital and small letters. It's really driven by safety."
Despite that, the rule changes are not welcome in communities that have cut budgets to the quick.
"I think it's ridiculous," says Milwaukee Alderman Bob Donovan, whose city will spend about $1.4 million on new signs over the next four years. "Our street signs have worked perfectly well for 100 years or more. I think it's just the federal government run amok. If they don't have far more important things to deal with, they're not doing their job."
A gripe heard across the land: The government is providing no funds to make the change.
Iron Mountain, Mich., which has a population of 8,154 and a $6 million budget, will spend $30-$50 apiece replacing several hundred signs, says city manager Jordan Stanchina. "You're looking at all the other things you've got to cut, and now you've got to do this," he says.
Canyon, Texas, city manager Randy Criswell says the Texas Panhandle city of about 15,000 will replace 1,500-2,000 signs at a cost of about $100 apiece. "Do I think that's money that's spent as well as it could be? I sure don't," he says. "I've got parents that are getting elderly. They think this is silly."
Some cities such as Eau Claire, Wis., have already been gradually replacing signs as they wear out. Brian Amundson, the city's public works director, says replacing signs is "a good, worthwhile program. It really does make a difference." But he says, "It's just that in these difficult financial times, people don't like it shoved down their throat because they don't see the immediate value of it."
Thanks to larbearfl for sending me the article!
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: corco on October 21, 2010, 08:24:13 PM
Post by: corco on October 21, 2010, 08:24:13 PM
Ah, the Big Old People lobby. Just as powerful as Big Oil, Big Tobacco, Big Pharmaceutical, and Big Guns.
I wonder if it ever occurred to anybody that if old people can't read existing signs they probably shouldn't be driving?
My grandmother, for instance, is in her 80s. Once she realized she couldn't read signs at night she decided by her own accord that she probably shouldn't drive at night because it suddenly became scary. This will slow down that process. Yes, it sucks and I feel bad for old people who shouldn't be driving anymore, and it's going to suck when I'm old and somebody yanks my license. That said, if we have to go making massive modifications conceding the fact that old people can't see which is pretty important while driving, then there's a problem.
I wonder if it ever occurred to anybody that if old people can't read existing signs they probably shouldn't be driving?
My grandmother, for instance, is in her 80s. Once she realized she couldn't read signs at night she decided by her own accord that she probably shouldn't drive at night because it suddenly became scary. This will slow down that process. Yes, it sucks and I feel bad for old people who shouldn't be driving anymore, and it's going to suck when I'm old and somebody yanks my license. That said, if we have to go making massive modifications conceding the fact that old people can't see which is pretty important while driving, then there's a problem.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 21, 2010, 09:00:45 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 21, 2010, 09:00:45 PM
as I keep telling people - they're not making deer any more reflective ...
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Scott5114 on October 21, 2010, 09:50:04 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 21, 2010, 09:50:04 PM
I'm 20, and I can't read many of the road signs around here at night. But that's mostly because ODOT cheaped out and has done everything in engineer-grade sheeting. In Kansas I can read everything like it's day. It really does help. Anything that prevents ODOT from being useless I am in favor of.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 21, 2010, 10:15:31 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 21, 2010, 10:15:31 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 21, 2010, 09:50:04 PM
I'm 20, and I can't read many of the road signs around here at night. But that's mostly because ODOT cheaped out and has done everything in engineer-grade sheeting. In Kansas I can read everything like it's day. It really does help. Anything that prevents ODOT from being useless I am in favor of.
the most egregious ODOT visibility violation I can think of is that left exit from I-40 eastbound to Elk City's business loop (old 66). At night, in a rainstorm, I had to almost come to a complete dead stop in the left lane of an interstate highway just to parse exactly where the exit ramp was. That was kinda horrific.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Scott5114 on October 21, 2010, 10:28:23 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 21, 2010, 10:28:23 PM
Their striping leaves much to be desired even under ideal conditions. In a rainstorm, it's often impossible to see. Of course, this is in the cases where it hasn't all been worn off or paved over and they haven't bothered repainting it...
Thermoplastic? What's that?
Thermoplastic? What's that?
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: burgess87 on October 22, 2010, 11:43:40 AM
Post by: burgess87 on October 22, 2010, 11:43:40 AM
Just here in the Village of Lyndonville (NY), they have some old & fading Series B blade signs. The lettering can't be more than 6" high. I'd love for NYSDOT to come through and replace 'em, just like they've been doing in stretches near here.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: deathtopumpkins on November 22, 2010, 09:22:03 PM
Post by: deathtopumpkins on November 22, 2010, 09:22:03 PM
And the issue has struck here now too: http://www.wvec.com/news/You-Paid-For-It-Signs-109933359.html
Same headline, over and over across the nation.
Same headline, over and over across the nation.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Scott5114 on November 23, 2010, 12:22:11 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 23, 2010, 12:22:11 AM
QuoteThe government mandate also states all street signs in all cities eventually must be replaced with signs in upper and lower case. They're easier to read the government says, and you will pay for it.
It's amazing how the media doesn't even bother to pretend to stay neutral these days.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: brownpelican on November 23, 2010, 03:31:06 PM
Post by: brownpelican on November 23, 2010, 03:31:06 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 23, 2010, 12:22:11 AMQuoteThe government mandate also states all street signs in all cities eventually must be replaced with signs in upper and lower case. They're easier to read the government says, and you will pay for it.
It's amazing how the media doesn't even bother to pretend to stay neutral these days.
I know right? What kills me is that whether the feds or local governments pay for it, it's still taxpayers' money. LOL
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: mjb2002 on November 27, 2010, 11:49:47 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on November 27, 2010, 11:49:47 PM
NYC's old street signs are very similar to the old street signs that Blackville, S.C. used until our county started using those awful street signs everywhere.
Even Clearview is an improvement compared to the signs we use in Barnwell County.
Even Clearview is an improvement compared to the signs we use in Barnwell County.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: roadfro on November 28, 2010, 05:40:22 AM
Post by: roadfro on November 28, 2010, 05:40:22 AM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 22, 2010, 09:22:03 PM
And the issue has struck here now too: http://www.wvec.com/news/You-Paid-For-It-Signs-109933359.html
Same headline, over and over across the nation.
What gets me in this article is the following:
Quote from: from WVEC article
A recent mandate from Washington says by the year 2015 all stop signs and other warning signs will need to come down. They'll need to be replaced with signs that are more reflective so they can be seen better at night, especially by older drivers.
The retroreflectivity standards that they are referring to were established as part of Revision 2 to the 2003 MUTCD, which was adopted in December 2007. I wouldn't call three years ago a "recent" mandate.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: deathtopumpkins on November 28, 2010, 09:35:03 AM
Post by: deathtopumpkins on November 28, 2010, 09:35:03 AM
Well do you really think anyone in a local news outlet is going to care until there's a story like this on it?
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: KillerTux on November 30, 2010, 02:32:29 PM
Post by: KillerTux on November 30, 2010, 02:32:29 PM
The new mandate just hit my neighborhood but they are only replacing lost or damaged signs. Compare the North Riverside signs, the uppercase signs have been used for 15 years now in Anne Arundel County.
Old Style
(https://files.me.com/parndt/qb61tj)
New Style
(https://files.me.com/parndt/jfjtnq)
Old Style
(https://files.me.com/parndt/qb61tj)
New Style
(https://files.me.com/parndt/jfjtnq)
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: on_wisconsin on November 30, 2010, 02:39:21 PM
Post by: on_wisconsin on November 30, 2010, 02:39:21 PM
I wonder if it would be a good idea to rename this thread to be less specific since the new rules affect the entire country.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: agentsteel53 on November 30, 2010, 03:36:16 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on November 30, 2010, 03:36:16 PM
what looks to be expanded Series B mixed case is really not doing the job - the older all-uppercase is more legible.
Title: Re: New York City's Street Signs Changing
Post by: Ian on November 30, 2010, 05:14:51 PM
Post by: Ian on November 30, 2010, 05:14:51 PM
I still don't see how mixed case is easier to see than uppercase on street blade signs.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: roadfro on November 30, 2010, 11:18:44 PM
Post by: roadfro on November 30, 2010, 11:18:44 PM
The mixed case provides a more readily-apparent "shape" of the text that can be somewhat discerned at a greater distance--all upper case results in one giant rectangle shape that isn't as recognizable at the same distance. When you factor in night driving and halo effects, the mixed case legend shape typically results in better cognition at a greater distance from the sign.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on December 01, 2010, 03:13:01 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on December 01, 2010, 03:13:01 AM
An illustration of roadfro's post:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denexa.com%2Fforum_img%2Fblocking.png&hash=3cfe84ada4dda42d356db8503c9097661ac9991c)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denexa.com%2Fforum_img%2Fblocking.png&hash=3cfe84ada4dda42d356db8503c9097661ac9991c)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: J N Winkler on December 01, 2010, 04:05:58 AM
Post by: J N Winkler on December 01, 2010, 04:05:58 AM
What Roadfro is referring to are Tinker and Patterson's findings, published in a 1942 issue of the Journal of Applied Psychology and based on a comparison of mixed-case and all-uppercase type in newspaper headlines. Later research, including the Forbes and Moskowitz paper of 1950 and elements of the (UK) Road Research Laboratory's research program in the late 1950's and early 1960's, focused on the possibility of using mixed-case lettering at a larger type size in order to make more efficient use of the same sign panel area compared to all-uppercase legend.
The findings have generally been mixed. Forbes and Moskowitz, for example, found a slight but not commanding advantage to using mixed-case legend. RRL found that, under controlled and highly artificial test conditions, a serif all-uppercase typeface--the Kindersley typeface, which is now very commonly used on street name signs in the UK--actually had 3% better legibility than the Kinneir typeface (later called Transport Medium) which had just been developed for motorway direction signs.
For this reason, when I was commenting on what eventually became the 2003 MUTCD, I did not take a stand on whether mixed-case legend should be allowed as an option on conventional-road guide signs. What I did argue was that a minimum floor should be put on the legibility, e.g. by banning the use of mixed-case alphabet series other than Series E Modified. FHWA chose to reject this suggestion on the basis that agencies would apply engineering judgment appropriately to devise signs which were adequately legible at reasonable cost. We will see how this works out in practice with lots of miserly county public works departments using mixed-case Series B on street name blades.
The findings have generally been mixed. Forbes and Moskowitz, for example, found a slight but not commanding advantage to using mixed-case legend. RRL found that, under controlled and highly artificial test conditions, a serif all-uppercase typeface--the Kindersley typeface, which is now very commonly used on street name signs in the UK--actually had 3% better legibility than the Kinneir typeface (later called Transport Medium) which had just been developed for motorway direction signs.
For this reason, when I was commenting on what eventually became the 2003 MUTCD, I did not take a stand on whether mixed-case legend should be allowed as an option on conventional-road guide signs. What I did argue was that a minimum floor should be put on the legibility, e.g. by banning the use of mixed-case alphabet series other than Series E Modified. FHWA chose to reject this suggestion on the basis that agencies would apply engineering judgment appropriately to devise signs which were adequately legible at reasonable cost. We will see how this works out in practice with lots of miserly county public works departments using mixed-case Series B on street name blades.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: agentsteel53 on December 01, 2010, 08:37:10 AM
Post by: agentsteel53 on December 01, 2010, 08:37:10 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 01, 2010, 04:05:58 AMWe will see how this works out in practice with lots of miserly county public works departments using mixed-case Series B on street name blades.
I don't think "miserly" is quite the right adjective to describe a DPW that takes Series B and stretches it to Series C when they need Series C. Given that the fonts are available for sale as a set (i.e. you can't pay half-price and get only half the series), I think the word we are looking for is "incompetent".
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: froggie on December 01, 2010, 12:24:35 PM
Post by: froggie on December 01, 2010, 12:24:35 PM
For those interested, Ray LaHood wrote a blog post (http://fastlane.dot.gov/2010/12/le.html) on the subject this morning...
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: US71 on December 01, 2010, 05:58:48 PM
Post by: US71 on December 01, 2010, 05:58:48 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 01, 2010, 12:24:35 PM
For those interested, Ray LaHood wrote a blog post (http://fastlane.dot.gov/2010/12/le.html) on the subject this morning...
I saw that. He proposes eliminating the law. Maybe it can be modified to new and replacement installations?
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Anthony_JK on December 01, 2010, 06:24:13 PM
Post by: Anthony_JK on December 01, 2010, 06:24:13 PM
Personally, I wouldn't mind at all changing street blades to mixed case...especially if they also decided to have larger communities also put in street block numbers along with it.
Most larger cities in Louisiana (Baton Rouge, New Orleans, Lake Charles, Shreveport) already do this. Lafayette still uses uppercase for their blades, with the exception of downtown (where they also use French titles, due to their Cajun French heritage there).
Probably, they should exempt smaller cities and communities from being forced to opt in until they find a suitable funding mode for the conversion...but the larger cities should have no issue.
As long as they're not in Clearview, that is... ;-P
Anthony
Most larger cities in Louisiana (Baton Rouge, New Orleans, Lake Charles, Shreveport) already do this. Lafayette still uses uppercase for their blades, with the exception of downtown (where they also use French titles, due to their Cajun French heritage there).
Probably, they should exempt smaller cities and communities from being forced to opt in until they find a suitable funding mode for the conversion...but the larger cities should have no issue.
As long as they're not in Clearview, that is... ;-P
Anthony
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mightyace on December 01, 2010, 06:33:38 PM
Post by: mightyace on December 01, 2010, 06:33:38 PM
For a practical reason, I'd like to see a change to standardized street signs. (The exact standard doesn't matter as much to me.)
In Franklin, TN; I've counted at least a half dozen different styles of street signs in the city. (Eventually, I'll be posting examples on flickr.) Many of these are put up by developers of a subdivision.
In Franklin, TN; I've counted at least a half dozen different styles of street signs in the city. (Eventually, I'll be posting examples on flickr.) Many of these are put up by developers of a subdivision.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Duke87 on December 01, 2010, 07:35:18 PM
Post by: Duke87 on December 01, 2010, 07:35:18 PM
I dunno, I see a valid function served by not having street signs universally standardized: you know you've crossed a municipal boundary when the street signs change.
As for different standards within the same town... yeah, we've got that problem right here in Stamford. Most of it is simply a mix of different ages: our newer signs (ca. 2000 onward) are fully compliant with modern reflectivity and mixed case guidelines, but plenty of older ones which comply with neither persist. Add in a few specimens of even older specs still kicking, along with a couple of "beta version" experimental variants on the current design, and you have a mishmosh.
Of course, there is also some internal consistency even in the same time period. All the old signs around downtown are a different standard from those elsewhere in town. And the signs being posted on new signal mast arms (which are backlit!) are different still.
Street signs for private roads conform to no standard whatsoever, but that's to be expected.
As for different standards within the same town... yeah, we've got that problem right here in Stamford. Most of it is simply a mix of different ages: our newer signs (ca. 2000 onward) are fully compliant with modern reflectivity and mixed case guidelines, but plenty of older ones which comply with neither persist. Add in a few specimens of even older specs still kicking, along with a couple of "beta version" experimental variants on the current design, and you have a mishmosh.
Of course, there is also some internal consistency even in the same time period. All the old signs around downtown are a different standard from those elsewhere in town. And the signs being posted on new signal mast arms (which are backlit!) are different still.
Street signs for private roads conform to no standard whatsoever, but that's to be expected.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: NE2 on December 01, 2010, 08:13:18 PM
Post by: NE2 on December 01, 2010, 08:13:18 PM
Where can I see the new standard? Does it allow for e.g. city logos on the side?
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Michael in Philly on December 01, 2010, 08:42:15 PM
Post by: Michael in Philly on December 01, 2010, 08:42:15 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on December 01, 2010, 07:35:18 PM
I dunno, I see a valid function served by not having street signs universally standardized: you know you've crossed a municipal boundary when the street signs change.
As for different standards within the same town... yeah, we've got that problem right here in Stamford. Most of it is simply a mix of different ages: our newer signs (ca. 2000 onward) are fully compliant with modern reflectivity and mixed case guidelines, but plenty of older ones which comply with neither persist. Add in a few specimens of even older specs still kicking, along with a couple of "beta version" experimental variants on the current design, and you have a mishmosh.
Of course, there is also some internal consistency even in the same time period. All the old signs around downtown are a different standard from those elsewhere in town. And the signs being posted on new signal mast arms (which are backlit!) are different still.
Street signs for private roads conform to no standard whatsoever, but that's to be expected.
I've never been a fan of uniformity for its own sake. And I see no reason for the City of Philadelphia to change its distinctive and not-illegible street signs. Like the one here (found through Google Images) http://www.flickr.com/photos/mdorn/sets/72057594096070112/ .
The format is recognizable enough to locals for it to have been used in other locations, like the ballpark: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n1OFAcLBXPU/RsHObpXTM4I/AAAAAAAAADs/LmVflXQ-VIc/s1600-h/Baseball+with+Mom+059.jpg (Again a Google Images blog find - I don't know these people.)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: roadfro on December 03, 2010, 02:53:18 AM
Post by: roadfro on December 03, 2010, 02:53:18 AM
Quote from: NE2 on December 01, 2010, 08:13:18 PM
Where can I see the new standard? Does it allow for e.g. city logos on the side?
It's all in the MUTCD, Chapter 2D.43. City logos are allowed on one side (left side is encouraged).
Quote from: Michael in Philly on December 01, 2010, 08:42:15 PM
I've never been a fan of uniformity for its own sake. And I see no reason for the City of Philadelphia to change its distinctive and not-illegible street signs. Like the one here (found through Google Images) http://www.flickr.com/photos/mdorn/sets/72057594096070112/ .
Hey, if it meets letter heights and reflectivity requirements, it'd be good. I don't think the signs would loose too much character if they were mixed case.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: froggie on December 03, 2010, 07:26:39 AM
Post by: froggie on December 03, 2010, 07:26:39 AM
I don't see the problem with mixed case...though to be fair, I grew up in a city that has used it on streetsigns for decades...
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Android on December 03, 2010, 10:36:04 AM
Post by: Android on December 03, 2010, 10:36:04 AM
I grew up and learned to drive in Fort Collins, CO - a town that NEVER used lowercase on their signs anywhere. And then the last few years they've been putting up new Clearview signs, but still in ALL CAPS as always. (fine with me since I personally hate lowercase Clearview - plus FTC is mostly still using FHWA numbers thank God)
I wasn't aware of this sign replacement mixed-case law until just the other day, when my Mom sent me a photo of the new steet sign they put up near their house. It was amusing because they spelled it wrong! (she complained, they came and put up a corrected one) At first that's all I noticed, but then it struck me, WTF? Mixed Case? So I did some looking around and found this thread and other stories online.
Here's a picture of that sign, before and then the replacement misspelled sign. (too bad I can't find my high quality photo of the old sign, I always though the upside-down S was amusing, and now I'll never get another chance to take a photo of it) I am also happy they are not using Clearview on the new sign, looks like one of those modified versions of FHWA D maybe. The S looks funny though, not like any I can remember seeing before.
And really, I think they are both about equally legible.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.trainorders.com%2Fandroid%2Fmisc%2FAyrshireBefore.jpg&hash=0fca059ef187a6065b793cfdfd5260363d056f69)(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.trainorders.com%2Fandroid%2Fmisc%2FAyshire2a.jpg&hash=ced5e052b3c7ff0b47c4ad2a49f4a4d007ffaebc)
EDIT- Got a photo of the corrected sign, plus the replaced-a-few-years-ago sign from the other end of this short street...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.trainorders.com%2Fandroid%2Fmisc%2FAyrshireBefore2.jpg&hash=493324c4c027b2c808c9eb9523d811bf15891ec4)(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.trainorders.com%2Fandroid%2Fmisc%2FAyrshire3.jpg&hash=44bf826b088c7dbfb2ab7237acfa52705ba0f578)
I wasn't aware of this sign replacement mixed-case law until just the other day, when my Mom sent me a photo of the new steet sign they put up near their house. It was amusing because they spelled it wrong! (she complained, they came and put up a corrected one) At first that's all I noticed, but then it struck me, WTF? Mixed Case? So I did some looking around and found this thread and other stories online.
Here's a picture of that sign, before and then the replacement misspelled sign. (too bad I can't find my high quality photo of the old sign, I always though the upside-down S was amusing, and now I'll never get another chance to take a photo of it) I am also happy they are not using Clearview on the new sign, looks like one of those modified versions of FHWA D maybe. The S looks funny though, not like any I can remember seeing before.
And really, I think they are both about equally legible.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.trainorders.com%2Fandroid%2Fmisc%2FAyrshireBefore.jpg&hash=0fca059ef187a6065b793cfdfd5260363d056f69)(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.trainorders.com%2Fandroid%2Fmisc%2FAyshire2a.jpg&hash=ced5e052b3c7ff0b47c4ad2a49f4a4d007ffaebc)
EDIT- Got a photo of the corrected sign, plus the replaced-a-few-years-ago sign from the other end of this short street...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.trainorders.com%2Fandroid%2Fmisc%2FAyrshireBefore2.jpg&hash=493324c4c027b2c808c9eb9523d811bf15891ec4)(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.trainorders.com%2Fandroid%2Fmisc%2FAyrshire3.jpg&hash=44bf826b088c7dbfb2ab7237acfa52705ba0f578)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Alps on December 03, 2010, 03:43:37 PM
Post by: Alps on December 03, 2010, 03:43:37 PM
I'm not a fan of the appearance of mixed case by day, but dadgummit it's 400% more legible by night. First of all, many municipalities don't use reflective backgrounds on their street signs, but now they have to. Second of all, the required letter sizes are a lot larger than most places are using right now. Third of all, they're getting installed on every corner for both streets, so no more going down an unfamiliar street and not knowing where you are because there are no blades for YOUR road, just the other ones. So all in all, I'm a big fan.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Duke87 on December 03, 2010, 10:19:15 PM
Post by: Duke87 on December 03, 2010, 10:19:15 PM
In some cases signing both streets really is pointless. Any simple dead end street doesn't really need the second blade.
Think about it. Let's say you turn off of Elm Street onto Cherry Court, a short dead end street. Later, after you're done with whatever you were doing there, you go back down to the beginning of the block, leaving by the only route available... at this point if you cannot logically deduce that you are at the intersection with Elm Street without the assistance of a street sign, you are either really stupid or really forgetful.
True, such a sign would also serve as reassurance to traffic on Elm Street that they are in fact still on Elm Street, but you don't need one every block.
Think about it. Let's say you turn off of Elm Street onto Cherry Court, a short dead end street. Later, after you're done with whatever you were doing there, you go back down to the beginning of the block, leaving by the only route available... at this point if you cannot logically deduce that you are at the intersection with Elm Street without the assistance of a street sign, you are either really stupid or really forgetful.
True, such a sign would also serve as reassurance to traffic on Elm Street that they are in fact still on Elm Street, but you don't need one every block.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Hot Rod Hootenanny on December 03, 2010, 11:24:27 PM
Post by: Hot Rod Hootenanny on December 03, 2010, 11:24:27 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on December 03, 2010, 10:19:15 PMOr drunk, stoned, or recovering from an head injury
In some cases signing both streets really is pointless. Any simple dead end street doesn't really need the second blade.
Think about it. Let's say you turn off of Elm Street onto Cherry Court, a short dead end street. Later, after you're done with whatever you were doing there, you go back down to the beginning of the block, leaving by the only route available... at this point if you cannot logically deduce that you are at the intersection with Elm Street without the assistance of a street sign, you are either really stupid or really forgetful.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mightyace on December 03, 2010, 11:26:20 PM
Post by: mightyace on December 03, 2010, 11:26:20 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on December 03, 2010, 10:19:15 PM
at this point if you cannot logically deduce that you are at the intersection with Elm Street without the assistance of a street sign, you are either really stupid or really forgetful.
If I am in an unfamiliar city and my business on the dead end street takes a while, I might not remember the cross street.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: BigMattFromTexas on December 03, 2010, 11:54:53 PM
Post by: BigMattFromTexas on December 03, 2010, 11:54:53 PM
Ugh, the cities doin' it here in Angelo, in fact they replaced a perfectly good street sign with an ugly mixed-case Clearview sign.. I hate it.. I honestly think the UPPERCASE is more readable from a distance.. Also Clearview's an ugly font..
BigMatt
BigMatt
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on December 04, 2010, 08:32:38 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on December 04, 2010, 08:32:38 PM
Quote from: BigMatt on December 03, 2010, 11:54:53 PM
I honestly think the UPPERCASE is more readable from a distance..
Personal belief doesn't trump a scientific study showing the opposite.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: hbelkins on December 04, 2010, 08:50:12 PM
Post by: hbelkins on December 04, 2010, 08:50:12 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 04, 2010, 08:32:38 PM
Personal belief doesn't trump a scientific study showing the opposite.
Well, perhaps it IS easier for him to read the signs one way, even though a majority finds it easier to read them another way.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: nyratk1 on December 05, 2010, 11:07:26 AM
Post by: nyratk1 on December 05, 2010, 11:07:26 AM
...
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: CL on December 05, 2010, 10:56:30 PM
Post by: CL on December 05, 2010, 10:56:30 PM
Salt Lake City actually went the other direction. From the 1980s to around 2000 they had mixed-case Series C street blade signs. Around ten years ago they went back to all upper case Series C. I wish I had some pictures...
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: codyg1985 on December 06, 2010, 09:37:29 AM
Post by: codyg1985 on December 06, 2010, 09:37:29 AM
The City of Huntsville has been replacing street blades on high-speed thoroughfares (read: with a speed limit greater than 40 mph) with larger signs. They are still in all caps, though, so the visibillity isn't improved by too much.
EDIT: Link to City of Huntsville Sign, Marker Blade, Post Hardware and Installation Specs (http://www.huntsvilleal.gov/engineering/TrafficEng/signbladepostinstallspecs.pdf)
EDIT: Link to City of Huntsville Sign, Marker Blade, Post Hardware and Installation Specs (http://www.huntsvilleal.gov/engineering/TrafficEng/signbladepostinstallspecs.pdf)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on December 07, 2010, 11:50:43 AM
Post by: mjb2002 on December 07, 2010, 11:50:43 AM
Android, the signs on the right hand side look terrific.
I am so looking forward to the day that our street signs are finally replaced with something good!
I am so looking forward to the day that our street signs are finally replaced with something good!
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Android on December 07, 2010, 01:03:38 PM
Post by: Android on December 07, 2010, 01:03:38 PM
Quote from: mjb2002 on December 07, 2010, 11:50:43 AM
Android, the signs on the right hand side look terrific.
I was down there the other day and found a neighborhood that had had most of its signs replaced with the new mixed case - not bad.
I took some snapshots - not the greatest lighting in late afternoon but here's some of them:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.trainorders.com%2Fandroid%2Fmisc%2FFTC-NewSigns1.jpg&hash=265155b0e06069fc2e12e26d57549356470aa081)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: agentsteel53 on December 07, 2010, 01:54:15 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on December 07, 2010, 01:54:15 PM
Quote from: Android on December 07, 2010, 01:03:38 PMnot bad.[/img]
not good. looks like they stretch or compress Series C as needed, as opposed to using B, D, etc.
(unless it's B, and they stretch that... I can't quite tell; I just know stretching when I see it.)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Android on December 07, 2010, 02:23:05 PM
Post by: Android on December 07, 2010, 02:23:05 PM
I'm not sure what it is - it's not quite "by the book" Series C stretched or comrpessed - well not the "e" and "s" at least - many of the others are pretty darn close though. That looks like the typeface I've seen in some parts of Denver and also what Iowa used to use before they went Clearview. The stetching doesn't bother me that much - and I'd much rather have this than Clearview. But I do wonder what kind of protocols the sign makers use.
On another note, what do you think of the way that Cheyenne, WY is doing their mixed case signs? These have been going up for a few years now. I always thought their oversize capital letters to be a little, well, odd. Not really bad, just odd.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.trainorders.com%2Fandroid%2Fmisc%2FCheyenne3.jpg&hash=dff91dd1bd43732359c68fb14aa9edd6d89af3dc)
On another note, what do you think of the way that Cheyenne, WY is doing their mixed case signs? These have been going up for a few years now. I always thought their oversize capital letters to be a little, well, odd. Not really bad, just odd.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.trainorders.com%2Fandroid%2Fmisc%2FCheyenne3.jpg&hash=dff91dd1bd43732359c68fb14aa9edd6d89af3dc)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: codyg1985 on December 07, 2010, 04:01:56 PM
Post by: codyg1985 on December 07, 2010, 04:01:56 PM
Oversized capital letters look hideous IMO.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: agentsteel53 on December 07, 2010, 04:02:46 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on December 07, 2010, 04:02:46 PM
not nearly as classy as old-school 2:3 Cal Div Hwys black signs.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Android on December 07, 2010, 06:34:31 PM
Post by: Android on December 07, 2010, 06:34:31 PM
Okay, digging in my road signs folder, I found one more set of examples I thought I'd put up - another case of Oversized Capital letters, but these are different in their spacing. It was that oddity that got me into taking these - from a road trip last summer, Springfield Illinois.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.trainorders.com%2Fandroid%2Fmisc%2FSpringfieldIL.jpg&hash=d2094aad30c58c9932c0d91f282c05632a285952)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.trainorders.com%2Fandroid%2Fmisc%2FSpringfieldIL.jpg&hash=d2094aad30c58c9932c0d91f282c05632a285952)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on December 07, 2010, 11:21:43 PM
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on December 07, 2010, 11:21:43 PM
Several counties in Virginia have started to adopt mixed-case signage, although there are a few that have used it for years (Henrico, Prince William, Chesterfield, etc).
Hanover County is using some variation of FHWA Series C (a differently stretched version than what Henrico County has used), but with the street abbreviation spelled out - for example, what was "ATLEE STATION RD" is now spelled out as "Atlee Station Road". I don't know or understand why this is.
Richmond has been experimenting with mixed-case Clearview signage on some streets in downtown, but many of those signs are superseded by larger green signs mounted to traffic signal arms.
Hanover County is using some variation of FHWA Series C (a differently stretched version than what Henrico County has used), but with the street abbreviation spelled out - for example, what was "ATLEE STATION RD" is now spelled out as "Atlee Station Road". I don't know or understand why this is.
Richmond has been experimenting with mixed-case Clearview signage on some streets in downtown, but many of those signs are superseded by larger green signs mounted to traffic signal arms.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: hm insulators on December 08, 2010, 12:08:49 PM
Post by: hm insulators on December 08, 2010, 12:08:49 PM
Would all this mean, that San Dimas, California would have to do away with the "Old West"-style font on their street sign blades? And Redondo Beach do away with the little sailboats on their signs?
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on December 08, 2010, 06:31:25 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on December 08, 2010, 06:31:25 PM
Quote from: hm insulators on December 08, 2010, 12:08:49 PM
Would all this mean, that San Dimas, California would have to do away with the "Old West"-style font on their street sign blades? And Redondo Beach do away with the little sailboats on their signs?
Nope. San Dimas would just have to use lowercase, although really the MUTCD says that they shouldn't have been using that in the first place, so if they have to get rid of it, it's really their own fault.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: myosh_tino on December 08, 2010, 06:55:32 PM
Post by: myosh_tino on December 08, 2010, 06:55:32 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2010, 06:31:25 PMDoes the MUTCD really restrict the type of fonts that can be used on street blades? That's news to me since my home town switched from all-caps Series D to mixed case Bookman on their blades several years ago.Quote from: hm insulators on December 08, 2010, 12:08:49 PM
Would all this mean, that San Dimas, California would have to do away with the "Old West"-style font on their street sign blades? And Redondo Beach do away with the little sailboats on their signs?
Nope. San Dimas would just have to use lowercase, although really the MUTCD says that they shouldn't have been using that in the first place, so if they have to get rid of it, it's really their own fault.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: J N Winkler on December 09, 2010, 04:06:42 AM
Post by: J N Winkler on December 09, 2010, 04:06:42 AM
Quote from: myosh_tino on December 08, 2010, 06:55:32 PMDoes the MUTCD really restrict the type of fonts that can be used on street blades? That's news to me since my home town switched from all-caps Series D to mixed case Bookman on their blades several years ago.
The MUTCD requires that only the FHWA alphabet series be used on traffic signs (the "W" Clearview typefaces being allowed for positive-contrast applications by interim approval). I forget chapter and verse, but that stipulation has been around in one form or another for years if not decades.
Wayfinding signage is emerging as a thorny issue in MUTCD rulemaking because it has been unclear for so long that these are actually traffic signs within the meaning of the MUTCD. Many cities (including my hometown, Wichita) have opted to put up wayfinding signs which don't use the FHWA alphabet series or approved colors, on the basis that they are not traffic signs per se and so do not have to comply with the MUTCD. I believe MUTCD 2009 now spells out specifications for wayfinding signs but I don't at the moment remember whether they were made compulsory. I suspect that the motivation for FHWA is to get a tentative standard out there so that they can later make it compulsory for replacements when existing wayfinding signs wear out.
It also used to be unclear whether guide signs on roads within airports (not airside) had to comply with the MUTCD. I think MUTCD 2009 now stipulates that they do have to comply, so that probably means an end to blue-background guide signs with Arial. Airports which took a sensible approach and used MUTCD typefaces and sign design rules, like Houston Intercontinental and Minneapolis-St. Paul, won't be stuck with big bills for sign replacement. Others, like Chicago O'Hare and Wichita Mid-Continent, are in a more difficult position.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Alps on December 09, 2010, 07:35:46 PM
Post by: Alps on December 09, 2010, 07:35:46 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 09, 2010, 04:06:42 AMYes and no. Only if an airport gets FHWA funding do they have to worry about compliance. A client I know of is taking the approach of coming as close to the MUTCD as practical, but still keeping their own sign standards. When it comes to street signs, they have at least one location with non-standard background colors (plenty of contrast, just not an MUTCD color), and the sign blade has an adornment that makes it non-rectangular. Other signs have deviations of similar magnitude. They're 0% Federally funded so they don't feel pressure to comply any more than is reasonably easy.
It also used to be unclear whether guide signs on roads within airports (not airside) had to comply with the MUTCD. I think MUTCD 2009 now stipulates that they do have to comply, so that probably means an end to blue-background guide signs with Arial. Airports which took a sensible approach and used MUTCD typefaces and sign design rules, like Houston Intercontinental and Minneapolis-St. Paul, won't be stuck with big bills for sign replacement. Others, like Chicago O'Hare and Wichita Mid-Continent, are in a more difficult position.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: burgess87 on December 09, 2010, 09:22:23 PM
Post by: burgess87 on December 09, 2010, 09:22:23 PM
I had the opportunity to speak with the Town of Yates, NY supervisor last night. Asked him if he'd heard anything from NYSDOT about this change. He replied in the affirmative, and that NYSDOT was allowing the blade signs to be replaced as needed. He was pretty sure that all the blade signs in the town would be knocked down at some point before the 2018 deadline.
I remarked to him that if they could make the text bigger at all when they are replaced, it'd be a great deal better for our drivers.
I remarked to him that if they could make the text bigger at all when they are replaced, it'd be a great deal better for our drivers.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: myosh_tino on December 10, 2010, 04:04:42 AM
Post by: myosh_tino on December 10, 2010, 04:04:42 AM
So I guess the 2009 MUTCD (or some future version) would make this street blade non-compliant for not using an FHWA font or Clearview (yuk!)...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.markyville.com%2Faaroads%2FCupertinoBladeExample.png&hash=72c84f2019aa26d95c87cdabfba8acf27236c77e)
The funny thing is I think this type of street blade was installed to comply with the 6" letter height and reflective requirements in the previous MUTCD. The old street blades used 4" uppercase Series C. I guess we're going to eventually have to go back to boring old Series C or D... *groan*
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.markyville.com%2Faaroads%2FCupertinoBladeExample.png&hash=72c84f2019aa26d95c87cdabfba8acf27236c77e)
The funny thing is I think this type of street blade was installed to comply with the 6" letter height and reflective requirements in the previous MUTCD. The old street blades used 4" uppercase Series C. I guess we're going to eventually have to go back to boring old Series C or D... *groan*
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: roadfro on December 11, 2010, 04:09:44 AM
Post by: roadfro on December 11, 2010, 04:09:44 AM
Quote from: AlpsROADS on December 09, 2010, 07:35:46 PMThe 2009 MUTCD has specific language that states it applies to all roads open to public travel--funding is not a factor under consideration. Airport circulating roadways would certainly fall under this stipulation.Quote from: J N Winkler on December 09, 2010, 04:06:42 AMYes and no. Only if an airport gets FHWA funding do they have to worry about compliance. A client I know of is taking the approach of coming as close to the MUTCD as practical, but still keeping their own sign standards. When it comes to street signs, they have at least one location with non-standard background colors (plenty of contrast, just not an MUTCD color), and the sign blade has an adornment that makes it non-rectangular. Other signs have deviations of similar magnitude. They're 0% Federally funded so they don't feel pressure to comply any more than is reasonably easy.
It also used to be unclear whether guide signs on roads within airports (not airside) had to comply with the MUTCD. I think MUTCD 2009 now stipulates that they do have to comply, so that probably means an end to blue-background guide signs with Arial. Airports which took a sensible approach and used MUTCD typefaces and sign design rules, like Houston Intercontinental and Minneapolis-St. Paul, won't be stuck with big bills for sign replacement. Others, like Chicago O'Hare and Wichita Mid-Continent, are in a more difficult position.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: J N Winkler on December 11, 2010, 06:50:59 AM
Post by: J N Winkler on December 11, 2010, 06:50:59 AM
Quote from: roadfro on December 11, 2010, 04:09:44 AMThe 2009 MUTCD has specific language that states it applies to all roads open to public travel--funding is not a factor under consideration. Airport circulating roadways would certainly fall under this stipulation.
My interpretation of Steve's comment is that while airports might be under an obligation to comply because their circulating roadways are open to public travel, in practice they will ignore MUTCD requirements unless there is a funding stream for FHWA to yank. The reason for this is that FHWA does not (AFAIK) have police powers to enforce MUTCD requirements. (I would imagine that airports do receive some additional federal funding streams in respect of cost-sharing for airfield infrastructure and tower operations, but I don't know if those can be yanked for failing to comply with MUTCD requirements in the same way universities can lose federal funding if they refuse to allow military recruiters on campus.)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Michael in Philly on December 11, 2010, 01:27:09 PM
Post by: Michael in Philly on December 11, 2010, 01:27:09 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 11, 2010, 06:50:59 AMQuote from: roadfro on December 11, 2010, 04:09:44 AMThe 2009 MUTCD has specific language that states it applies to all roads open to public travel--funding is not a factor under consideration. Airport circulating roadways would certainly fall under this stipulation.
My interpretation of Steve's comment is that while airports might be under an obligation to comply because their circulating roadways are open to public travel, in practice they will ignore MUTCD requirements unless there is a funding stream for FHWA to yank. The reason for this is that FHWA does not (AFAIK) have police powers to enforce MUTCD requirements. (I would imagine that airports do receive some additional federal funding streams in respect of cost-sharing for airfield infrastructure and tower operations, but I don't know if those can be yanked for failing to comply with MUTCD requirements in the same way universities can lose federal funding if they refuse to allow military recruiters on campus.)
Congress can use the "spending power" - its authority to determine how federal funds are spent - to do all sorts of things that they can't (because this is theoretically a federal system) do directly. That was the Supreme Court's rationale for upholding the national drinking age.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: J N Winkler on December 11, 2010, 02:29:22 PM
Post by: J N Winkler on December 11, 2010, 02:29:22 PM
Congress does have that power, but to exercise it, it first has to pass a law. The question that is most immediately relevant relates to what is permissible under existing legislation. I am not aware that airports jeopardize federal funding besides that administered by FHWA if they fail to comply with the MUTCD on their surface roadways.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: MDOTFanFB on December 18, 2010, 08:13:26 AM
Post by: MDOTFanFB on December 18, 2010, 08:13:26 AM
Wayne County in Michigan has just started to get into the mixed-case Clearview street sign tread. I already saw three last week.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh3.ggpht.com%2F_AXtC_YsMww4%2FTQO2Ty60GmI%2FAAAAAAAAAA8%2FTfIP8V70oh4%2Fs800%2FSAM_0065.JPG&hash=e47ed614c34e36e25bc756401543b2d2a8bf8659)
Allen & Pennsylvania Roads, Southgate
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh4.ggpht.com%2F_AXtC_YsMww4%2FTQO2fRRvVoI%2FAAAAAAAAABo%2FgloRm16pFOE%2Fs912%2FSAM_0078.JPG&hash=8753d8e9566e582c1d3c5670b5e1af1e194a5409)
Eureka & Wayne Roads, Romulus (due to relocated intersection)
The last one was at Allen & Eureka Roads in Southgate.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh3.ggpht.com%2F_AXtC_YsMww4%2FTQO2Ty60GmI%2FAAAAAAAAAA8%2FTfIP8V70oh4%2Fs800%2FSAM_0065.JPG&hash=e47ed614c34e36e25bc756401543b2d2a8bf8659)
Allen & Pennsylvania Roads, Southgate
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh4.ggpht.com%2F_AXtC_YsMww4%2FTQO2fRRvVoI%2FAAAAAAAAABo%2FgloRm16pFOE%2Fs912%2FSAM_0078.JPG&hash=8753d8e9566e582c1d3c5670b5e1af1e194a5409)
Eureka & Wayne Roads, Romulus (due to relocated intersection)
The last one was at Allen & Eureka Roads in Southgate.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Duke87 on December 18, 2010, 11:50:52 AM
Post by: Duke87 on December 18, 2010, 11:50:52 AM
Why are they omitting the suffix?
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: J N Winkler on December 18, 2010, 12:49:36 PM
Post by: J N Winkler on December 18, 2010, 12:49:36 PM
That is fairly common inside subdivisions--Wichita does it, for example.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: njroadhorse on December 18, 2010, 03:39:45 PM
Post by: njroadhorse on December 18, 2010, 03:39:45 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 18, 2010, 12:49:36 PMSeems to be a common Metro Detroit thing in general. I've seen the blades downtown do that too.
That is fairly common inside subdivisions--Wichita does it, for example.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: hm insulators on December 20, 2010, 02:56:31 PM
Post by: hm insulators on December 20, 2010, 02:56:31 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2010, 06:31:25 PMQuote from: hm insulators on December 08, 2010, 12:08:49 PM
Would all this mean, that San Dimas, California would have to do away with the "Old West"-style font on their street sign blades? And Redondo Beach do away with the little sailboats on their signs?
Nope. San Dimas would just have to use lowercase, although really the MUTCD says that they shouldn't have been using that in the first place, so if they have to get rid of it, it's really their own fault.
San Dimas actually has been using the "old west"-style font at least since the 1970s.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: froggie on December 24, 2010, 12:57:49 PM
Post by: froggie on December 24, 2010, 12:57:49 PM
Earlier today, I noticed one of the new style of streetblade signs in Dorset, VT. This is an area that normally does just uppercase streetsigns. No pic, but I can't say I'm impressed with the new style. Prefer the 1st letter being closer in font size to the rest.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on December 25, 2010, 01:25:13 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on December 25, 2010, 01:25:13 AM
Quote from: hm insulators on December 20, 2010, 02:56:31 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2010, 06:31:25 PMQuote from: hm insulators on December 08, 2010, 12:08:49 PM
Would all this mean, that San Dimas, California would have to do away with the "Old West"-style font on their street sign blades? And Redondo Beach do away with the little sailboats on their signs?
Nope. San Dimas would just have to use lowercase, although really the MUTCD says that they shouldn't have been using that in the first place, so if they have to get rid of it, it's really their own fault.
San Dimas actually has been using the "old west"-style font at least since the 1970s.
And the MUTCD has specified the current fonts since 1948...
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Android on December 26, 2010, 10:11:16 PM
Post by: Android on December 26, 2010, 10:11:16 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 24, 2010, 12:57:49 PM
Earlier today, I noticed one of the new style of streetblade signs in Dorset, VT. This is an area that normally does just uppercase streetsigns. No pic, but I can't say I'm impressed with the new style. Prefer the 1st letter being closer in font size to the rest.
Were they like any of the exampled I posted above - like those ones from Cheyenne with very oversized capitals?
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: froggie on December 30, 2010, 07:47:44 AM
Post by: froggie on December 30, 2010, 07:47:44 AM
Closer to the Springfield, IL ones in that the lowercase letters were vertically centered. But with an even more pronounced size difference between the capital and lowercase letters.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Kniwt on January 28, 2011, 12:06:25 AM
Post by: Kniwt on January 28, 2011, 12:06:25 AM
The story has reached the mighty metropolis of Terre Haute, Ind., where today's edition of the local newspaper reports (http://"http://tribstar.com/news/x465503799/Lighten-up-Traffic-signs-get-facelift") a cost of at least $1.2 million. For just a mid-sized city:
QuoteTerre Haute's current inventory shows 8,331 signs. About 12 percent of those are estimated to meet the new federal regulations, leaving the city with an estimated 7,290 signs to replace, Hinsenkamp said. However, a new inventory will be required by the city, he said.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on January 28, 2011, 10:45:46 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 28, 2011, 10:45:46 PM
Should have been amortizing that over the past 8 years, guys! Then you'd only have to be paying $150,000 a year.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Michael on January 29, 2011, 12:40:20 AM
Post by: Michael on January 29, 2011, 12:40:20 AM
I noticed a new street sign at the corner of Schwartz Drive and McIntosh Drive in Auburn today, and it was not in mixed case. I don't know how long it's been there (I don't pay THAT much attention!), but it's relatively new.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Brandon on February 03, 2011, 08:12:53 PM
Post by: Brandon on February 03, 2011, 08:12:53 PM
No idea how they'll handle it locally. I've seen a newer City of Crest Hill blade in upper and lower case, but unsure if it was installed by the city or a contractor. Here's their standard:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_1224.jpg&hash=364601ec486af77c48b3dd1b70bccb6beb7ee31b)
And the City of Joliet standard. They also have a wider blade for major streets (I'll have a photo later).
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_1214.jpg&hash=a25bf9fa95cedb006caf4ac1f32ecb2a925688a3)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_1224.jpg&hash=364601ec486af77c48b3dd1b70bccb6beb7ee31b)
And the City of Joliet standard. They also have a wider blade for major streets (I'll have a photo later).
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_1214.jpg&hash=a25bf9fa95cedb006caf4ac1f32ecb2a925688a3)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: RJ145 on February 03, 2011, 10:23:24 PM
Post by: RJ145 on February 03, 2011, 10:23:24 PM
So does this reg require that all uppercase blade signs be replaced with mixed letters? Or just that after a certain date they can't be made with all uppercase?
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: deathtopumpkins on February 04, 2011, 11:16:27 AM
Post by: deathtopumpkins on February 04, 2011, 11:16:27 AM
Both the local cities of Hampton and Newport News are replacing sign blades now. I've seen a few intersections with Clearview ones in Newport News, a city that already used mixed-case FHWA alphabets with white-on-green colors. And now this week Hampton, who also already used mixed-case FHWA alphabets (white on blue), installed a few Clearview blades that have horizontally compressed fonts with way too narrow of margins, and that look absolutely awful. It really surprised me considering that about a month ago they went down our main arterial (Mercury Blvd / US 258) and installed "NEXT SIGNAL" signs of the same format, but with FHWA alphabets.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on February 06, 2011, 10:47:06 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on February 06, 2011, 10:47:06 PM
Quote from: RJ145 on February 03, 2011, 10:23:24 PM
So does this reg require that all uppercase blade signs be replaced with mixed letters? Or just that after a certain date they can't be made with all uppercase?
Yes. This requires all uppercase blade street signs to be replaced with mixed-case blades. The mixed case blades can be in any font. The deadline is January 22, 2012.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on February 06, 2011, 10:52:01 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on February 06, 2011, 10:52:01 PM
Not any font. The MUTCD has always required the FHWA Series font to be used on all signage. In addition, Clearview can be used if the agency has approval from FHWA.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: RJ145 on February 06, 2011, 11:04:24 PM
Post by: RJ145 on February 06, 2011, 11:04:24 PM
Quote from: mjb2002 on February 06, 2011, 10:47:06 PMQuote from: RJ145 on February 03, 2011, 10:23:24 PM
So does this reg require that all uppercase blade signs be replaced with mixed letters? Or just that after a certain date they can't be made with all uppercase?
Yes. This requires all uppercase blade street signs to be replaced with mixed-case blades. The mixed case blades can be in any font. The deadline is January 22, 2012.
Damn, my town must be pissed. They just replaced all of the street blade signs 2 years ago with all uppercase.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on February 06, 2011, 11:17:33 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on February 06, 2011, 11:17:33 PM
Actually, I believe the 2012 compliance deadline is for the retroreflectivity standards introduced in the 2003 MUTCD, not mixed case. It's just that with the 2009 MUTCD all new signs have to be mixed case, so any signs that do not meet standards now that it's out will need to be replaced with mixed case signage.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: MichiganDriver on February 06, 2011, 11:49:08 PM
Post by: MichiganDriver on February 06, 2011, 11:49:08 PM
Correct the compliance date is just for retroreflectivy, there actually three dates as part of the rule. 2012 when assesment/implementations plans complete, warning, regulatory and post-mounted guide sign need to be replaced by 2015 and street name and overhead guide signs by 2018
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Hot Rod Hootenanny on February 07, 2011, 08:21:54 PM
Post by: Hot Rod Hootenanny on February 07, 2011, 08:21:54 PM
The great street blade sign debate made its way to Columbus today.
http://www.dispatchpolitics.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/02/07/copy/signs-of-waste-cities-debate-u-s-rule.html?adsec=politics&sid=101 (http://www.dispatchpolitics.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/02/07/copy/signs-of-waste-cities-debate-u-s-rule.html?adsec=politics&sid=101)
http://www2.nbc4i.com/news/2011/feb/07/4/street-signs-changing-for-safety-reasons-ar-388847/ (http://www2.nbc4i.com/news/2011/feb/07/4/street-signs-changing-for-safety-reasons-ar-388847/)
http://www.dispatchpolitics.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/02/07/copy/signs-of-waste-cities-debate-u-s-rule.html?adsec=politics&sid=101 (http://www.dispatchpolitics.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/02/07/copy/signs-of-waste-cities-debate-u-s-rule.html?adsec=politics&sid=101)
http://www2.nbc4i.com/news/2011/feb/07/4/street-signs-changing-for-safety-reasons-ar-388847/ (http://www2.nbc4i.com/news/2011/feb/07/4/street-signs-changing-for-safety-reasons-ar-388847/)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on February 22, 2011, 10:47:58 PM
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on February 22, 2011, 10:47:58 PM
I hate to necropost (this thread's not too old, though), but Richmond has finally begun adopting mixed-case signage to comply with the new MUTCD. They actually look quite nice, similar to Chesterfield County's street signage:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.static.flickr.com%2F5133%2F5470092108_0da7b781e5.jpg&hash=df9664caf8ba5add13f016b499b8630e0c14f3af) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/coredesatchikai/5470092108/)
New Richmond MUTCD-Compliant Street Signs (http://www.flickr.com/photos/coredesatchikai/5470092108/) by Will Weaver (http://www.flickr.com/people/coredesatchikai/), on Flickr
An example of the most recent previous standard (street signs in Richmond have gone through various changes since the Broad Street trolley cars stopped running long ago):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4152%2F5055743286_3f70caf22b.jpg&hash=cc9c9147ca4a2474476ef798f92df330aee34650) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/coredesatchikai/5055743286/)
Cary & Belmont (http://www.flickr.com/photos/coredesatchikai/5055743286/) by Will Weaver (http://www.flickr.com/people/coredesatchikai/), on Flickr
Now if only they'd fix their shields...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.static.flickr.com%2F5133%2F5470092108_0da7b781e5.jpg&hash=df9664caf8ba5add13f016b499b8630e0c14f3af) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/coredesatchikai/5470092108/)
New Richmond MUTCD-Compliant Street Signs (http://www.flickr.com/photos/coredesatchikai/5470092108/) by Will Weaver (http://www.flickr.com/people/coredesatchikai/), on Flickr
An example of the most recent previous standard (street signs in Richmond have gone through various changes since the Broad Street trolley cars stopped running long ago):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4152%2F5055743286_3f70caf22b.jpg&hash=cc9c9147ca4a2474476ef798f92df330aee34650) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/coredesatchikai/5055743286/)
Cary & Belmont (http://www.flickr.com/photos/coredesatchikai/5055743286/) by Will Weaver (http://www.flickr.com/people/coredesatchikai/), on Flickr
Now if only they'd fix their shields...
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: RJ145 on February 23, 2011, 09:24:28 PM
Post by: RJ145 on February 23, 2011, 09:24:28 PM
All caps looks so much better. And IMHO is much easier to read.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on February 24, 2011, 01:20:14 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on February 24, 2011, 01:20:14 AM
Quote from: RJ145 on February 23, 2011, 09:24:28 PM
All caps looks so much better. And IMHO is much easier to read.
Read back to pages 4 and 5, where some studies were discussed that might invalidate your opinion.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mightyace on February 24, 2011, 01:28:33 AM
Post by: mightyace on February 24, 2011, 01:28:33 AM
^^^
The studies don't invalidate his opinion, they just mean he's in the minority.
The studies don't invalidate his opinion, they just mean he's in the minority.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on February 24, 2011, 09:48:10 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on February 24, 2011, 09:48:10 PM
Here is a pic of the new street signs in Aiken County, S.C. (they really didn't have to change their signs, as they were already in mixed-case):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash1%2F180800_499236915755_717895755_6648613_7432377_n.jpg&hash=acce9edc386473c43e1248b7c61ddee3748de4a5)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash1%2F180800_499236915755_717895755_6648613_7432377_n.jpg&hash=acce9edc386473c43e1248b7c61ddee3748de4a5)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Android on February 27, 2011, 09:44:57 PM
Post by: Android on February 27, 2011, 09:44:57 PM
Is it just me, or do the lowercase 'e's in that Robert M. Bell sign look...wrong!???
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Anthony_JK on February 27, 2011, 09:58:58 PM
Post by: Anthony_JK on February 27, 2011, 09:58:58 PM
As far as I can tell, Baton Rouge is already in compliance, since they long since upgraded their street blades to mixed case (reflective white on blue).
New Orleans is also already in compliance, since they use mixed case.
Lafayette, though, still uses uppercase, so there will be a big issue there.
Although....the downtown area did for a while do bilingual signs with the street name in French mixed case (the English version just above it in upper). Don't know how they are going to handle that.
Also.....the University of Louisiana at Lafayette campus uses special blades (red with black trim on reflective white) to distinguish their boundaries...but that's also in uppercase.
Anthony
New Orleans is also already in compliance, since they use mixed case.
Lafayette, though, still uses uppercase, so there will be a big issue there.
Although....the downtown area did for a while do bilingual signs with the street name in French mixed case (the English version just above it in upper). Don't know how they are going to handle that.
Also.....the University of Louisiana at Lafayette campus uses special blades (red with black trim on reflective white) to distinguish their boundaries...but that's also in uppercase.
Anthony
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on February 28, 2011, 08:06:23 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on February 28, 2011, 08:06:23 PM
Quote from: Android on February 27, 2011, 09:44:57 PM
Is it just me, or do the lowercase 'e's in that Robert M. Bell sign look...wrong!???
The e's are kind of stretched. Tested it out just then, with the Series D font as Aiken County is currently using it on the new signs.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on April 03, 2011, 04:33:47 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on April 03, 2011, 04:33:47 PM
The e's on Aiken County's signs are fine as long as the sign has five or less letters. Those with six or more letters, such as the HERITAGE RD sign near my current location in Williston, S.C. are kinda stretched.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2011, 11:13:23 AM
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2011, 11:13:23 AM
Pa. township gets OK to keep small century-old street signs (http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20110420/NEWS/110420006/-1/7daysarchives/Pa-township-gets-OK-keep-small-century-old-street-signs)
QuoteARDMORE, Pa. – Federal officials have decided that a tony Philadelphia suburb no longer has to replace the small green-and-gold signs that have marked its streets for almost a century.
The decision by U.S. Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood came after lobbying by U.S. Sen. Pat Toomey and officials of Lower Merion Township.
Toomey, R-Pa., thanked LaHood in a statement Tuesday and said the decision would also save the township money.
New Federal Highway Administration guidelines require street signs to be replaced by January 2018 with modern reflective signs that are easier to see, especially at night.
The township said replacing the cast-iron signs, which date back to 1913, would cost $1.5 million.
Other suburban communities have complained about the requirements, and transportation officials are now weighing possible revisions.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: agentsteel53 on April 20, 2011, 11:52:40 AM
Post by: agentsteel53 on April 20, 2011, 11:52:40 AM
very good! now can we get them to bring back cutout US markers?
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Ian on April 20, 2011, 09:55:32 PM
Post by: Ian on April 20, 2011, 09:55:32 PM
Very good indeed! Would have been depressing to see those go as I see those once every other week. In case anyone was wondering, here is what they look like:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.static.flickr.com%2F5140%2F5387925645_44fc07af1e_z.jpg&hash=fcb1758ccd4ec45ffd84ec3a8197b5b5853d0cdc)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.static.flickr.com%2F5140%2F5387925645_44fc07af1e_z.jpg&hash=fcb1758ccd4ec45ffd84ec3a8197b5b5853d0cdc)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Hot Rod Hootenanny on April 20, 2011, 10:34:21 PM
Post by: Hot Rod Hootenanny on April 20, 2011, 10:34:21 PM
Wish the rest of the Main Line communities would have street blades that distinctive.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on April 20, 2011, 11:46:04 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on April 20, 2011, 11:46:04 PM
How easy are they to find and read at night?
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: on_wisconsin on April 21, 2011, 07:00:04 PM
Post by: on_wisconsin on April 21, 2011, 07:00:04 PM
An interesting note about the new regulations, it seems many small rural WI villages and cites replaced there old all CAPS signs with now required specs back in the mid- late 2000's. Was there a long lead time before the new mandate came into effect?
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=durand,+wi&aq=&sll=44.638048,-91.945052&sspn=0.007879,0.013797&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Durand,+Pepin,+Wisconsin&ll=44.638094,-91.944945&spn=0.007817,0.013797&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=44.638049,-91.94505&panoid=SeEw41YvtVGQVhxZ4mMR3Q&cbp=12,13.9,,1,7.42
EDIT
an (unrelated) oddity in this small city is that STH 85 ends in the middle of the main drag through town before the stop lights (intersection with USH 10 & STH 25): http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=durand,+wi&aq=&sll=44.638048,-91.945052&sspn=0.007879,0.013797&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Durand,+Pepin,+Wisconsin&ll=44.635504,-91.950584&spn=0.007818,0.013797&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=44.635566,-91.950475&panoid=HTw1PC02a4ysd_SfYt3D6Q&cbp=12,231.26,,0,14.56
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=durand,+wi&aq=&sll=44.638048,-91.945052&sspn=0.007879,0.013797&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Durand,+Pepin,+Wisconsin&ll=44.638094,-91.944945&spn=0.007817,0.013797&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=44.638049,-91.94505&panoid=SeEw41YvtVGQVhxZ4mMR3Q&cbp=12,13.9,,1,7.42
EDIT
an (unrelated) oddity in this small city is that STH 85 ends in the middle of the main drag through town before the stop lights (intersection with USH 10 & STH 25): http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=durand,+wi&aq=&sll=44.638048,-91.945052&sspn=0.007879,0.013797&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Durand,+Pepin,+Wisconsin&ll=44.635504,-91.950584&spn=0.007818,0.013797&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=44.635566,-91.950475&panoid=HTw1PC02a4ysd_SfYt3D6Q&cbp=12,231.26,,0,14.56
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on April 22, 2011, 07:05:52 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on April 22, 2011, 07:05:52 PM
Quote from: PennDOTFan on April 20, 2011, 09:55:32 PM
Very good indeed! Would have been depressing to see those go as I see those once every other week. In case anyone was wondering, here is what they look like:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.static.flickr.com%2F5140%2F5387925645_44fc07af1e_z.jpg&hash=fcb1758ccd4ec45ffd84ec3a8197b5b5853d0cdc)
The town of Ardmore, Pa. is unable to replace those signs anyways, given how it was installed. Which means that money had nothing to do with the decision by LaHood to allow the town to keep their signs -- despite what the article says.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Hot Rod Hootenanny on April 23, 2011, 03:12:31 PM
Post by: Hot Rod Hootenanny on April 23, 2011, 03:12:31 PM
Well considering Ardmore is not an incorporated entity, they would not be able (legally, much less financially) to do anything to those roadsigns errected by Lower Merion Twp anyways.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: 6a on April 27, 2011, 02:03:06 PM
Post by: 6a on April 27, 2011, 02:03:06 PM
Quote from: Adam Smith on February 07, 2011, 08:21:54 PM
The great street blade sign debate made its way to Columbus today.
I had hoped they would use this occasion to put a little style in the signs, but nooooooooo...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbishopdan.com%2Fimages%2Fsullivant.jpg&hash=75a14eee73eab098d9d461aec953a7e5ee5eef50)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: agentsteel53 on April 27, 2011, 02:41:04 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on April 27, 2011, 02:41:04 PM
well, there's certainly some "style" there in the spelling of "Sullivan".
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on April 27, 2011, 08:16:21 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on April 27, 2011, 08:16:21 PM
Quote from: 6a on April 27, 2011, 02:03:06 PMQuote from: Adam Smith on February 07, 2011, 08:21:54 PM
The great street blade sign debate made its way to Columbus today.
I had hoped they would use this occasion to put a little style in the signs, but nooooooooo...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbishopdan.com%2Fimages%2Fsullivant.jpg&hash=75a14eee73eab098d9d461aec953a7e5ee5eef50)
Wow. (facepalm)
No 't' should be in the street name.
I also came across many mispelled signs myself in Barnwell County, S.C. alone.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: 6a on April 27, 2011, 08:37:32 PM
Post by: 6a on April 27, 2011, 08:37:32 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 27, 2011, 02:41:04 PM
well, there's certainly some "style" there in the spelling of "Sullivan".
That'd be one Lucas Sullivant, a city father, although legend does hold that the family name was Sullivan at one time.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Central Avenue on April 27, 2011, 08:59:05 PM
Post by: Central Avenue on April 27, 2011, 08:59:05 PM
Quote from: mjb2002 on April 27, 2011, 08:16:21 PMQuote from: 6a on April 27, 2011, 02:03:06 PMQuote from: Adam Smith on February 07, 2011, 08:21:54 PM
The great street blade sign debate made its way to Columbus today.
I had hoped they would use this occasion to put a little style in the signs, but nooooooooo...
(picture)
Wow. (facepalm)
No 't' should be in the street name.
I also came across many mispelled signs myself in Barnwell County, S.C. alone.
"Sullivant" is actually the correct spelling for the street in Columbus. (Though it does look kinda weird)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on May 16, 2011, 08:15:34 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on May 16, 2011, 08:15:34 PM
Quote from: Central Avenue on April 27, 2011, 08:59:05 PMQuote from: mjb2002 on April 27, 2011, 08:16:21 PMQuote from: 6a on April 27, 2011, 02:03:06 PMQuote from: Adam Smith on February 07, 2011, 08:21:54 PM
The great street blade sign debate made its way to Columbus today.
I had hoped they would use this occasion to put a little style in the signs, but nooooooooo...
(picture)
Wow. (facepalm)
No 't' should be in the street name.
I also came across many mispelled signs myself in Barnwell County, S.C. alone.
"Sullivant" is actually the correct spelling for the street in Columbus. (Though it does look kinda weird)
Ok. Thanks for telling us that.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mightyace on June 23, 2011, 08:18:45 PM
Post by: mightyace on June 23, 2011, 08:18:45 PM
A little bit of a bump on this one, but it's relevant.
From Newschannel 5 in Nashville, TN:
Federal Law Mandates Road Signs Must Be Replaced
http://www.newschannel5.com/story/14967087/federal-law-mandates-road-signs-must-be-replaced
From Newschannel 5 in Nashville, TN:
Federal Law Mandates Road Signs Must Be Replaced
http://www.newschannel5.com/story/14967087/federal-law-mandates-road-signs-must-be-replaced
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on June 26, 2011, 12:24:18 AM
Post by: mjb2002 on June 26, 2011, 12:24:18 AM
The WTVF-HD story is not true. All non-retroreflective signs must be replaced by 2015, not just STOP and YIELD signs. The retroreflective signs must be replaced by 2018 IF the signs do not meet the requirements as specified by the 2009 MUTCD.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: The Premier on June 26, 2011, 01:26:51 PM
Post by: The Premier on June 26, 2011, 01:26:51 PM
Went to Akron last week and in some intersections, they now have Clearview mixed-case street blades. Didn't take a pic though. Sorry.
Anyway, some of the cities and townships in the Akron-Canton area are already in mixed-case. Kent, Kent State, Springfield Township, Lakemore, and Green are already in compliance.
Anyway, some of the cities and townships in the Akron-Canton area are already in mixed-case. Kent, Kent State, Springfield Township, Lakemore, and Green are already in compliance.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on July 11, 2011, 03:42:32 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on July 11, 2011, 03:42:32 PM
They are starting to change the blades in the Aiken City Limits now. The new signs are Arial mixed-case with a pictograph of a horse on the right hand side. Don't have a pic of those particular signs yet.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on July 23, 2011, 08:25:06 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on July 23, 2011, 08:25:06 PM
The signs that the City of Aiken has used from the time I was born until December 2010:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4054%2F4673520578_45c526c581_b.jpg&hash=598dfd46b36b5762bfb02978358b843251c3bfa5)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--LvCcyLO7TU/TitlcLBH44I/AAAAAAAAAg8/k4F01ux7KHw/s512/070501_0830%25255B00%25255D.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-cchNkzQTDak/SCfECCO1JaI/AAAAAAAAAH4/91Iml8ILP-Y/Laurens%252520and%252520the%252520Alley.jpg)
Now, introducing the new City of Aiken sign:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-uctQP8qEhlU/TitmNGWaDwI/AAAAAAAAAhI/oJkbhQTOGy8/s512/072301_1711%25255B00%25255D.jpg)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4054%2F4673520578_45c526c581_b.jpg&hash=598dfd46b36b5762bfb02978358b843251c3bfa5)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--LvCcyLO7TU/TitlcLBH44I/AAAAAAAAAg8/k4F01ux7KHw/s512/070501_0830%25255B00%25255D.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-cchNkzQTDak/SCfECCO1JaI/AAAAAAAAAH4/91Iml8ILP-Y/Laurens%252520and%252520the%252520Alley.jpg)
Now, introducing the new City of Aiken sign:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-uctQP8qEhlU/TitmNGWaDwI/AAAAAAAAAhI/oJkbhQTOGy8/s512/072301_1711%25255B00%25255D.jpg)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on July 30, 2011, 02:45:35 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on July 30, 2011, 02:45:35 PM
There are only three other counties in South Carolina with mixed-case signs: Orangeburg, Pickens and Spartanburg. Here are their standards:
Orangeburg County:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-D94f98NmRBo/TjRQNjPB4TI/AAAAAAAAAhY/LBpe9v7R8Po/s800/orangeburg%252520county%252520sign.jpg)
Pickens County (credit to oldoinyo, a Flickr user):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.static.flickr.com%2F50%2F139907979_cd18ed8985_o.jpg&hash=3715dd3aa72e3f236ad6be95b87a6c3f83c44449)
Spartanburg County:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QqvV8mp3ihQ/TjRQSJjWAWI/AAAAAAAAAhc/d2KwmKDOX3E/s800/Spartanburg%252520County%252520sign.jpg)
Orangeburg County:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-D94f98NmRBo/TjRQNjPB4TI/AAAAAAAAAhY/LBpe9v7R8Po/s800/orangeburg%252520county%252520sign.jpg)
Pickens County (credit to oldoinyo, a Flickr user):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.static.flickr.com%2F50%2F139907979_cd18ed8985_o.jpg&hash=3715dd3aa72e3f236ad6be95b87a6c3f83c44449)
Spartanburg County:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QqvV8mp3ihQ/TjRQSJjWAWI/AAAAAAAAAhc/d2KwmKDOX3E/s800/Spartanburg%252520County%252520sign.jpg)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Zmapper on July 30, 2011, 02:49:06 PM
Post by: Zmapper on July 30, 2011, 02:49:06 PM
Off topic: What are those weather alert boxes on the Google Streetview screenshot? I have never seen those before. :eyebrow:
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Dr Frankenstein on July 30, 2011, 03:33:20 PM
Post by: Dr Frankenstein on July 30, 2011, 03:33:20 PM
Looks like a Google Earth extension to me.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Ian on July 30, 2011, 05:02:05 PM
Post by: Ian on July 30, 2011, 05:02:05 PM
Booger Branch Road. That's an interesting one.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: HighwayMaster on July 30, 2011, 06:12:07 PM
Post by: HighwayMaster on July 30, 2011, 06:12:07 PM
Quote from: The Premier on June 26, 2011, 01:26:51 PM
Went to Akron last week and in some intersections, they now have Clearview mixed-case street blades. Didn't take a pic though. Sorry.
Anyway, some of the cities and townships in the Akron-Canton area are already in mixed-case. Kent, Kent State, Springfield Township, Lakemore, and Green are already in compliance.
Massillon has used mixed-case for years, and it's starting to pop up in Canton. However, it's nowhere in the townships.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on July 30, 2011, 07:07:35 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on July 30, 2011, 07:07:35 PM
Quote from: mjb2002 on July 23, 2011, 08:25:06 PM
Now, introducing the new City of Aiken sign:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-uctQP8qEhlU/TitmNGWaDwI/AAAAAAAAAhI/oJkbhQTOGy8/s512/072301_1711%25255B00%25255D.jpg)
Why switch to mixed-case to comply with the MUTCD if you're just going to break compliance by using the wrong font?
Actually, compliance issues aside, Helvetica can look alright on street blades. DC's blades look fine. Those...those do not.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on July 30, 2011, 08:16:41 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on July 30, 2011, 08:16:41 PM
Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on July 30, 2011, 03:33:20 PM
Looks like a Google Earth extension to me.
Yep. The extensions are available on the National Weather Service's National Weather Data page:
srh.noaa.gov/gis/kml/
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on July 30, 2011, 08:26:55 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on July 30, 2011, 08:26:55 PM
A sidebar about the Orangeburg County sign, that is one of the newer signs they installed -- I say about 2003-ish. Most of the signs were installed in the 1970s -- meaning that they are long past their life cycle. Those signs are a very light shade of green -- almost a moss-like green. You can see many of the old signs along SC 3 between Blackville and Swansea.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: roadfro on July 31, 2011, 09:41:24 PM
Post by: roadfro on July 31, 2011, 09:41:24 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 30, 2011, 07:07:35 PMQuote from: mjb2002 on July 23, 2011, 08:25:06 PM
Now, introducing the new City of Aiken sign:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-uctQP8qEhlU/TitmNGWaDwI/AAAAAAAAAhI/oJkbhQTOGy8/s512/072301_1711%25255B00%25255D.jpg)
Why switch to mixed-case to comply with the MUTCD if you're just going to break compliance by using the wrong font?
The green-on-white portion of the sign is also not in compliance with the MUTCD either.
If the city of Aiken had taken either the Whiskey/Ola Hitt or Marlboro/Park blade designs and changed them to accommodate larger lettering and mixed case, it would be in compliance.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on August 01, 2011, 07:23:48 AM
Post by: mjb2002 on August 01, 2011, 07:23:48 AM
Quote from: roadfro on July 31, 2011, 09:41:24 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on July 30, 2011, 07:07:35 PMQuote from: mjb2002 on July 23, 2011, 08:25:06 PM
Now, introducing the new City of Aiken sign:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-uctQP8qEhlU/TitmNGWaDwI/AAAAAAAAAhI/oJkbhQTOGy8/s512/072301_1711%25255B00%25255D.jpg)
Why switch to mixed-case to comply with the MUTCD if you're just going to break compliance by using the wrong font?
The green-on-white portion of the sign is also not in compliance with the MUTCD either.
If the city of Aiken had taken either the Whiskey/Ola Hitt or Marlboro/Park blade designs and changed them to accommodate larger lettering and mixed case, it would be in compliance.
Actually, where the green-on-white is located is, in fact, legit -- since the suffix, numbering, direction and pictograph are all extras and are not required on road signs.
The only major issue that the sign has is with the typeface.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: roadfro on August 03, 2011, 04:52:14 AM
Post by: roadfro on August 03, 2011, 04:52:14 AM
^ The suffix, block number, direction and pictograph are indeed optional on street name signs. However, the color scheme of white on green is a standard in the 2009 MUTCD (the standard can be deviated by local option, with white on brown, white on blue, or black on white being the only permissible alternatives).
The MUTCD also has guidance that states the optional pictograph (the horse head, in this case) should be to the left of the street name legend. The other designs I pointed out follow this guidance.
The MUTCD also has guidance that states the optional pictograph (the horse head, in this case) should be to the left of the street name legend. The other designs I pointed out follow this guidance.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Ian on September 02, 2011, 11:20:31 PM
Post by: Ian on September 02, 2011, 11:20:31 PM
Sorry to bump an old topic, but New Hampshire DOT has gotten to making their green uni-signs mixed case. Here is one I photographed in Wolfeboro:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm7.static.flickr.com%2F6085%2F6107943856_7cb52e1283_z.jpg&hash=4d706a9fa1f4f57a97a54a00fc959437ce581f76)
They look almost exactly the same as the previous ones, just mixed case. They look good IMO.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm7.static.flickr.com%2F6085%2F6107943856_7cb52e1283_z.jpg&hash=4d706a9fa1f4f57a97a54a00fc959437ce581f76)
They look almost exactly the same as the previous ones, just mixed case. They look good IMO.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on September 03, 2011, 01:09:56 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on September 03, 2011, 01:09:56 PM
Quote from: PennDOTFan on September 02, 2011, 11:20:31 PM
Sorry to bump an old topic, but New Hampshire DOT has gotten to making their green uni-signs mixed case. Here is one I photographed in Wolfeboro:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm7.static.flickr.com%2F6085%2F6107943856_7cb52e1283_z.jpg&hash=4d706a9fa1f4f57a97a54a00fc959437ce581f76)
They look almost exactly the same as the previous ones, just mixed case. They look good IMO.
What in the world is that pic with the 28 inside of it?
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: J N Winkler on September 03, 2011, 01:37:27 PM
Post by: J N Winkler on September 03, 2011, 01:37:27 PM
The NH state route marker is essentially the silhouette of the Old Man in the Mountain, which now no longer exists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man_in_the_Mountain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man_in_the_Mountain
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on September 03, 2011, 01:59:35 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on September 03, 2011, 01:59:35 PM
I see why it no longer exists:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/04/us/iconic-rock-face-succumbs-to-age-and-gravity.html?scp=14&sq=old%20man%20of%20the%20mountain&st=cse
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/04/us/iconic-rock-face-succumbs-to-age-and-gravity.html?scp=14&sq=old%20man%20of%20the%20mountain&st=cse
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Ian on September 03, 2011, 02:27:33 PM
Post by: Ian on September 03, 2011, 02:27:33 PM
As JN pointed out, it was the silhouette of the Old Man of the Mountain. It's a real bummer that it no longer exists, but I'm glad New Hampshire still considers it an icon.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on September 03, 2011, 02:54:07 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on September 03, 2011, 02:54:07 PM
What do you all think about mixed-case Frutiger?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.flickr.com%2F3104%2F2883808961_57af48ccc5_z.jpg&hash=7abc4b3a3098e892f8a5e99b049ffcfdf56d6993)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.flickr.com%2F3104%2F2883808961_57af48ccc5_z.jpg&hash=7abc4b3a3098e892f8a5e99b049ffcfdf56d6993)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Quillz on September 03, 2011, 03:07:50 PM
Post by: Quillz on September 03, 2011, 03:07:50 PM
Was Frutiger designed for legibility from a distance, the way the FHWA Series and Clearview were? I don't think it looks bad, but it's not nearly as good as the FHWA Series fonts. It has the same issue as Clearview: humanist fonts tend to have non-uniform letter width and spacing, so the aesthetic quality suffers a little bit.
But on the other hand, mixed-case has been shown to improve legibility, because it's not just the individual letters, but the distinct shape the whole word forms that can help visibility (although in this case it might be through muscle memory.) (In other words, some studies suggested that using all-caps makes all words look basically the same from far away: effectively just rectangles.)
But on the other hand, mixed-case has been shown to improve legibility, because it's not just the individual letters, but the distinct shape the whole word forms that can help visibility (although in this case it might be through muscle memory.) (In other words, some studies suggested that using all-caps makes all words look basically the same from far away: effectively just rectangles.)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on September 03, 2011, 04:18:14 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on September 03, 2011, 04:18:14 PM
I now prefer Frutiger over Clearview. The l's and a's look better on Frutiger than on Clearview.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Quillz on September 03, 2011, 06:17:57 PM
Post by: Quillz on September 03, 2011, 06:17:57 PM
I prefer Clearview to Frutiger overall. But neither have particularly great numeral sets. (And I used to be a big Clearview fan.)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: ftballfan on September 03, 2011, 10:39:15 PM
Post by: ftballfan on September 03, 2011, 10:39:15 PM
Quote from: PennDOTFan on September 03, 2011, 02:27:33 PMAnd it is more unique than a boring square ;)
As JN pointed out, it was the silhouette of the Old Man of the Mountain. It's a real bummer that it no longer exists, but I'm glad New Hampshire still considers it an icon.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Ian on September 03, 2011, 11:15:54 PM
Post by: Ian on September 03, 2011, 11:15:54 PM
Quote from: ftballfan on September 03, 2011, 10:39:15 PMQuote from: PennDOTFan on September 03, 2011, 02:27:33 PMAnd it is more unique than a boring square ;)
As JN pointed out, it was the silhouette of the Old Man of the Mountain. It's a real bummer that it no longer exists, but I'm glad New Hampshire still considers it an icon.
...which New Hampshire used before the 1980's!
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Brandon on September 05, 2011, 10:56:46 PM
Post by: Brandon on September 05, 2011, 10:56:46 PM
Frutiger and Clearview...it's not the letters that really bother me (beyond the "g"), it's the number sets for the most part. Personally, I prefer Michigan's custom number set over FHWA for aesthetics. I'm of the opinion that 4s and 7s should be clipped, 3s and 8s should have upper and lower parts the same radius, and 5s, 6s, 8s, and 9s should have constant radii.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: agentsteel53 on September 05, 2011, 11:45:03 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on September 05, 2011, 11:45:03 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 05, 2011, 10:56:46 PM
3s and 8s should have upper and lower parts the same radius
this, for one, doesn't look bad at all
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/TX/TX19460831i1.jpg)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on September 06, 2011, 11:32:13 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on September 06, 2011, 11:32:13 PM
Mixed-case town limit signs have started popping up all over Bamberg County, S.C. now. Denmark and Bamberg have them in almost all directions now.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mtantillo on September 07, 2011, 11:14:50 AM
Post by: mtantillo on September 07, 2011, 11:14:50 AM
Significant change (potentially): http://www.mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/knowledge/09mutcdproposedrev/compliance_dates/index.htm
Looks like if this goes through, the retroreflectivity requirements won't apply to street name blades. That was the only thing that was really forcing agencies to replace blades, the mixed case was only a "when you're replacing them anyway for some other reason, make them mixed case".
Looks like if this goes through, the retroreflectivity requirements won't apply to street name blades. That was the only thing that was really forcing agencies to replace blades, the mixed case was only a "when you're replacing them anyway for some other reason, make them mixed case".
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on September 07, 2011, 04:21:00 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on September 07, 2011, 04:21:00 PM
Quote from: mtantillo on September 07, 2011, 11:14:50 AM
Significant change (potentially): http://www.mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/knowledge/09mutcdproposedrev/compliance_dates/index.htm
Looks like if this goes through, the retroreflectivity requirements won't apply to street name blades. That was the only thing that was really forcing agencies to replace blades, the mixed case was only a "when you're replacing them anyway for some other reason, make them mixed case".
Yeah, I read about that and downloaded the pdf of the possible change on my Compaq.
If approved, the 1/22/2018 deadline will no longer be in effect. However, the replacement street name signs still MUST be in mixed case if they are replaced for any reason. So really, the only thing that changes is that municipalities, or contractors if they are the ones responsible for street signs, will replace the signs ONLY when necessary.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mtantillo on September 07, 2011, 04:56:34 PM
Post by: mtantillo on September 07, 2011, 04:56:34 PM
Yes. Requiring replacement when the old ones are worn out makes much more sense, because you'd replace them anyway and the marginal cost to upgrade to mixed-case font is negligible. Requiring replacement before they are worn out could have led to the spending of public money on street signs when there may have been other more important uses for that money.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: brownpelican on September 09, 2011, 12:43:11 AM
Post by: brownpelican on September 09, 2011, 12:43:11 AM
Spotted these new blades in Jackson, Miss. last week:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb01.webshots.com%2F43072%2F2339124300046960331S500x500Q85.jpg&hash=f9295d4e9149b2f57623631472683b79cbdc587c) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2339124300046960331FEZrXK)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb59.webshots.com%2F46074%2F2705871370046960331S500x500Q85.jpg&hash=ba77145ca9fdc0bfdae85ad5b9de62533e01a6d1) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2705871370046960331LFoyaY)
And these are found around Jackson State University:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb21.webshots.com%2F48980%2F2975651490046960331S600x600Q85.jpg&hash=ed982d166c13966f77423cc727237c25cb9050bf) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2975651490046960331BOXWqN)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb38.webshots.com%2F49189%2F2048771100046960331S600x600Q85.jpg&hash=550103343c61706a0f4da48c74b3ef818a18ec05) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2048771100046960331XGsWsH)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb01.webshots.com%2F43072%2F2339124300046960331S500x500Q85.jpg&hash=f9295d4e9149b2f57623631472683b79cbdc587c) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2339124300046960331FEZrXK)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb59.webshots.com%2F46074%2F2705871370046960331S500x500Q85.jpg&hash=ba77145ca9fdc0bfdae85ad5b9de62533e01a6d1) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2705871370046960331LFoyaY)
And these are found around Jackson State University:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb21.webshots.com%2F48980%2F2975651490046960331S600x600Q85.jpg&hash=ed982d166c13966f77423cc727237c25cb9050bf) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2975651490046960331BOXWqN)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb38.webshots.com%2F49189%2F2048771100046960331S600x600Q85.jpg&hash=550103343c61706a0f4da48c74b3ef818a18ec05) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2048771100046960331XGsWsH)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on September 09, 2011, 06:11:17 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on September 09, 2011, 06:11:17 PM
Ooo, I like the Jackson ones. But not the university ones. Times New Roman can die in a fire.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on September 09, 2011, 09:07:52 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on September 09, 2011, 09:07:52 PM
What series are the City of Jackson, Miss. signs?
And Jackson State U's Times New Roman signs look ok for that font. And I didn't know that mixed-case newspaper fonts were allowed on road signs.
And Jackson State U's Times New Roman signs look ok for that font. And I didn't know that mixed-case newspaper fonts were allowed on road signs.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on September 09, 2011, 09:14:36 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on September 09, 2011, 09:14:36 PM
They're not, and Times New Roman is a particularly bad choice, because the stroke width gets so thin that it's difficult to see. Check out that W, for instance, and now imagine a nice dose of halation around it and you can see how under unfavorable conditions it could be washed out to just look like "\ \ '".
The non-university signs are Series C.
The non-university signs are Series C.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Anthony_JK on September 09, 2011, 09:53:48 PM
Post by: Anthony_JK on September 09, 2011, 09:53:48 PM
Baton Rouge uses the same Times New Roman font for their blades in the downtown area. Everywhere else, it is Clearview, I believe.
Anthony
Anthony
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Hot Rod Hootenanny on September 09, 2011, 11:45:41 PM
Post by: Hot Rod Hootenanny on September 09, 2011, 11:45:41 PM
Quote from: Anthony_JK on September 09, 2011, 09:53:48 PM
Baton Rouge uses the same Times New Roman font for their blades in the downtown area. Everywhere else, it is Clearview, I believe.
Anthony
Baton Rouge changes sign blades (downtown) again?! Isn't that the third time in 10 years?
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: brownpelican on September 09, 2011, 11:58:13 PM
Post by: brownpelican on September 09, 2011, 11:58:13 PM
Quote from: Anthony_JK on September 09, 2011, 09:53:48 PM
Baton Rouge uses the same Times New Roman font for their blades in the downtown area. Everywhere else, it is Clearview, I believe.
Anthony
The Clearview look appears on some of the newest illuminated blades at traffic intersections. I only spotted them on Airline Highway and Sherwood Forest Boulevard. The rest of the new blades and illuminated blades are Series D, I believe.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: brownpelican on September 10, 2011, 12:01:28 AM
Post by: brownpelican on September 10, 2011, 12:01:28 AM
Quote from: mjb2002 on September 09, 2011, 09:07:52 PM
And Jackson State U's Times New Roman signs look ok for that font. And I didn't know that mixed-case newspaper fonts were allowed on road signs.
I believe the city changed the blades last year, not long after renaming Metro Parkway west of Terry Road "Robert Smith Jr. Pkwy". They also renamed Terry Road north of I-20 University Blvd.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: txstateends on September 10, 2011, 11:46:38 AM
Post by: txstateends on September 10, 2011, 11:46:38 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 09, 2011, 06:11:17 PM
Times New Roman can die in a fire.
Believe me, I'll be the first in line to throw it in the burn barrel!!! :) It's bad enough that it's the de-facto computer font for docs/spreadsheets, but for street signs?? >UGH<
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: apeman33 on September 10, 2011, 12:27:44 PM
Post by: apeman33 on September 10, 2011, 12:27:44 PM
Bookman and Palatino sneak away while all the attention is focused on Times New Roman.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: myosh_tino on September 10, 2011, 03:28:05 PM
Post by: myosh_tino on September 10, 2011, 03:28:05 PM
Quote from: apeman33 on September 10, 2011, 12:27:44 PMFunny you should mention Bookman...
Bookman and Palatino sneak away while all the attention is focused on Times New Roman.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmarkyville.com%2Faaroads%2FCupertinoBladeExample.png&hash=16a87bc0db4ef0d17e0f0b1b278cb5f9f3b0af9c)
This is how the street blades in my hometown look like. They started using Bookman on the street blades in 2005 and IMO, it looks good aesthetically.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on September 10, 2011, 11:04:12 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on September 10, 2011, 11:04:12 PM
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on September 09, 2011, 11:45:41 PMQuote from: Anthony_JK on September 09, 2011, 09:53:48 PM
Baton Rouge uses the same Times New Roman font for their blades in the downtown area. Everywhere else, it is Clearview, I believe.
Anthony
Baton Rouge changes sign blades (downtown) again?! Isn't that the third time in 10 years?
They change their signs like how the MUTCD changes their manuals.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: roadfro on September 11, 2011, 03:45:29 AM
Post by: roadfro on September 11, 2011, 03:45:29 AM
Quote from: mjb2002 on September 10, 2011, 11:04:12 PMQuote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on September 09, 2011, 11:45:41 PMThey change their signs like how the MUTCD changes their manuals.
Baton Rouge changes sign blades (downtown) again?! Isn't that the third time in 10 years?
By a Notice of Proposed Amendments in the Federal Register, public comment period, then Final Rule action?
:pan:
EDIT: Fixed quote
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on September 17, 2011, 12:14:26 AM
Post by: mjb2002 on September 17, 2011, 12:14:26 AM
Have any of you been following county government web pages? If yes, are they or have they held a bidding contest on who gets to replace the non-compliant street name signs with compliant ones?
I found out that Barnwell County, S.C. had held a bidding contest in July. No word yet on who will change the signs here.
I found out that Barnwell County, S.C. had held a bidding contest in July. No word yet on who will change the signs here.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: architect77 on September 23, 2011, 01:07:56 PM
Post by: architect77 on September 23, 2011, 01:07:56 PM
Before they enacted the law requiring all county/rural roads to have blades with names (to aid emergency responders), North Carolina used to have these unique blades at every rural intersection. Most are gone now, but these remain in Rolesville, NC, halfway between Raleigh and my hometown of Louisburg. I guess the lower sign that's cut off is the State Road number.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi174.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw102%2Farchitect77%2Fblades.png&hash=f965aeec6d799d5b83d1d5799e2c85715a7c824a)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi174.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw102%2Farchitect77%2Fblades.png&hash=f965aeec6d799d5b83d1d5799e2c85715a7c824a)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on September 25, 2011, 01:57:33 AM
Post by: mjb2002 on September 25, 2011, 01:57:33 AM
They should have continued to allow such blades (like what NC used to have) up until the 2009 MUTCD. Then require blades with names. I tell you, you don't require blades with names unless all of them are gonna be mixed case. The feds screwed that up with the 1993 MUTCD. Nice to see them finally correct that 16 years later.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: roadfro on September 25, 2011, 06:12:13 AM
Post by: roadfro on September 25, 2011, 06:12:13 AM
^ There was no 1993 MUTCD. National manuals were published in 1988 and 2000.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: MDOTFanFB on September 25, 2011, 05:43:05 PM
Post by: MDOTFanFB on September 25, 2011, 05:43:05 PM
Spotted this in Riverview, MI yesterday:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh4.googleusercontent.com%2F-vjEK5yfsjoo%2FTn-XrBu0a3I%2FAAAAAAAABrs%2FfNl6iQExqro%2Fs640%2FSAM_0884.JPG&hash=8b9dbf9b7209832e8ad768f87f396873c23f9e16)
And yes, it is common for Southeast Michigan counties and their communities to exclude the suffix on their street signs.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh4.googleusercontent.com%2F-vjEK5yfsjoo%2FTn-XrBu0a3I%2FAAAAAAAABrs%2FfNl6iQExqro%2Fs640%2FSAM_0884.JPG&hash=8b9dbf9b7209832e8ad768f87f396873c23f9e16)
And yes, it is common for Southeast Michigan counties and their communities to exclude the suffix on their street signs.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: tdindy88 on September 25, 2011, 06:09:08 PM
Post by: tdindy88 on September 25, 2011, 06:09:08 PM
QuoteAnd yes, it is common for Southeast Michigan counties and their communities to exclude the suffix on their street signs.
And why is that may I ask? Is there a reason for leaving the suffix off? And so I am relavent to this topic, in case anyone is interested, I've seen in both Indianapolis and Muncie (two towns I frequent a lot) some newer signs with mixed case. In the case of Indy, there are three kinds of signs: the ones at stoplights, the ones at interesections with a major road that may not be a stoplight, and the ones at the intersection of small residential streets, each type of sign decreasing is size. The bottom two classes were redesigned about 10 to 15 years ago with all upper-case letters, but there are now some with mixed-case lettering popping up here and there. The signs at the stoplights were already designed in mixed-case, and in Highway Gothic I might add, so those shouldn't change. Muncie as well as started changing a few signs to mixed case, with the first letter appearing a little too big for the rest of the name, so it looks a bit off. The Indy ones IMO look decent for mixed case.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on September 25, 2011, 08:42:50 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on September 25, 2011, 08:42:50 PM
The suffix, as I mentioned two or three pages back, is optional. Which is why there is no standard (lettering, font, color, etc.) for suffixes on a street name sign. The same with numbering, direction and pictographs -- all of which are also optional.
Someone also mentioned in this thread that subdivisions in larger cities do not use the suffix. So, the sign in SE Mich. might be in a subdivision.
Someone also mentioned in this thread that subdivisions in larger cities do not use the suffix. So, the sign in SE Mich. might be in a subdivision.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: NE2 on September 25, 2011, 08:59:08 PM
Post by: NE2 on September 25, 2011, 08:59:08 PM
Quote from: mjb2002 on September 25, 2011, 08:42:50 PMDo you mean a recent residential subdivision? Most parts of cities are in platted subdivisions.
Someone also mentioned in this thread that subdivisions in larger cities do not use the suffix. So, the sign in SE Mich. might be in a subdivision.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on September 25, 2011, 09:49:03 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on September 25, 2011, 09:49:03 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on September 25, 2011, 06:09:08 PMQuoteAnd yes, it is common for Southeast Michigan counties and their communities to exclude the suffix on their street signs.
And why is that may I ask? Is there a reason for leaving the suffix off?
I suppose theoretically it reduces message loading by a scant amount and thus allows the important information (the street name) more prominence, which is pretty much the same justification for omitting the state name from interstate shields. Depending on the design it could also allow the sign to be smaller and thus less costly. That said in cases where you do not have another street with the same base name and a different suffix (21st St., 21st Terr.), it is really not essential information because most people tend to omit it in speech anyway. (I have noticed that a good percentage of times I have asked for addresses verbally at work I will get it in the form "2000 N.W. 81st" or "2424 W. Reno" with no suffix.)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: MDOTFanFB on September 25, 2011, 10:55:25 PM
Post by: MDOTFanFB on September 25, 2011, 10:55:25 PM
Quote from: mjb2002 on September 25, 2011, 08:42:50 PM
Someone also mentioned in this thread that subdivisions in larger cities do not use the suffix. So, the sign in SE Mich. might be in a subdivision.
That intersection was nowhere near a subdivision. I've even seen street signs in downtown Detroit lacking the suffix. Where I live (Wyandotte), they too lack the suffix, as well as many communities I've been in in Metro Detroit.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: apeman33 on September 26, 2011, 12:55:35 AM
Post by: apeman33 on September 26, 2011, 12:55:35 AM
Quote from: tdindy88 on September 25, 2011, 06:09:08 PMQuoteAnd yes, it is common for Southeast Michigan counties and their communities to exclude the suffix on their street signs.
And why is that may I ask? Is there a reason for leaving the suffix off? And so I am relavent to this topic, in case anyone is interested, I've seen in both Indianapolis and Muncie (two towns I frequent a lot) some newer signs with mixed case. In the case of Indy, there are three kinds of signs: the ones at stoplights, the ones at interesections with a major road that may not be a stoplight, and the ones at the intersection of small residential streets, each type of sign decreasing is size. The bottom two classes were redesigned about 10 to 15 years ago with all upper-case letters, but there are now some with mixed-case lettering popping up here and there. The signs at the stoplights were already designed in mixed-case, and in Highway Gothic I might add, so those shouldn't change. Muncie as well as started changing a few signs to mixed case, with the first letter appearing a little too big for the rest of the name, so it looks a bit off. The Indy ones IMO look decent for mixed case.
Most of Wichita's street signs don't have the "St." (unless it a numbered street) or "Ave." In some cases, "Blvd." is also omitted. However any road does have the "Rd." the majority of the time (Rock Rd., Tyler Rd., Maize Rd., etc.)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: roadfro on September 26, 2011, 05:15:06 AM
Post by: roadfro on September 26, 2011, 05:15:06 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 25, 2011, 09:49:03 PMQuote from: tdindy88 on September 25, 2011, 06:09:08 PM
Is there a reason for leaving the suffix off?
I suppose theoretically it reduces message loading by a scant amount and thus allows the important information (the street name) more prominence, which is pretty much the same justification for omitting the state name from interstate shields. Depending on the design it could also allow the sign to be smaller and thus less costly. That said in cases where you do not have another street with the same base name and a different suffix (21st St., 21st Terr.), it is really not essential information because most people tend to omit it in speech anyway. (I have noticed that a good percentage of times I have asked for addresses verbally at work I will get it in the form "2000 N.W. 81st" or "2424 W. Reno" with no suffix.)
The Las Vegas area went to leaving the suffix off on it's overhead internally-illuminated street name signs at traffic signals for a while (simultaneously converting *to* all uppercase lettering). I assumed it was a legibility/message loading sort of thing, and suffixes were always omitted in everyday speech anyway. After some time, they've reverted to mixed case for these overhead signs, and now format them as they do the normal blades with direction, suffix and block number on the sides in smaller print.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Brandon on September 26, 2011, 07:32:01 AM
Post by: Brandon on September 26, 2011, 07:32:01 AM
Quote from: NE2 on September 25, 2011, 08:59:08 PMQuote from: mjb2002 on September 25, 2011, 08:42:50 PMDo you mean a recent residential subdivision? Most parts of cities are in platted subdivisions.
Someone also mentioned in this thread that subdivisions in larger cities do not use the suffix. So, the sign in SE Mich. might be in a subdivision.
No, that's quite common in SE Michigan. Even Gd River and Telegraph get the treatment.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: us175 on October 21, 2011, 09:54:19 PM
Post by: us175 on October 21, 2011, 09:54:19 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg3.imageshack.us%2Fimg3%2F4780%2Fnewjvillesigns.jpg&hash=6fc6a24229ce48c9e4a8d025d55ad4beb6ce7af2)
This new style is rolling out now in Jacksonville, TX. Apparently there was a popularity contest among 4 choices that locals got to vote on, and the style in the pic was the winner (this came from the local newspaper's website); I didn't get to see a pic of the other 3 choices, so I'm not sure whether Clearview was ever a consideration on any of them. I'm not sure what font this is, but I don't remember ever seeing it on a guide sign or blade before. This is the first instance of Jacksonville using a a city logo/image on their street blades and also the first to use any block numbering on them. This is also the first use of blue on street blades since the days when the city had the old concrete posts and dark blue coated metal signs. I have a pic somewhere in my stuff of one of the city's last known instances of that kind of sign; I'll try to post it later if I find it.
EDIT:::: Forgot, it's also the first local use of upper/lowercase. All known previous versions used uppercase.
This new style is rolling out now in Jacksonville, TX. Apparently there was a popularity contest among 4 choices that locals got to vote on, and the style in the pic was the winner (this came from the local newspaper's website); I didn't get to see a pic of the other 3 choices, so I'm not sure whether Clearview was ever a consideration on any of them. I'm not sure what font this is, but I don't remember ever seeing it on a guide sign or blade before. This is the first instance of Jacksonville using a a city logo/image on their street blades and also the first to use any block numbering on them. This is also the first use of blue on street blades since the days when the city had the old concrete posts and dark blue coated metal signs. I have a pic somewhere in my stuff of one of the city's last known instances of that kind of sign; I'll try to post it later if I find it.
EDIT:::: Forgot, it's also the first local use of upper/lowercase. All known previous versions used uppercase.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 21, 2011, 10:00:22 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 21, 2011, 10:00:22 PM
I do not like the font for "Highway 79" but I do like the logo... very Texan. would be cool if they combined that logo with Highway Gothic Series C mixed case (maybe D if it fits?) for the street name.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on October 21, 2011, 10:17:19 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 21, 2011, 10:17:19 PM
The placement of block numbering and cardinal direction makes it feel really cluttered, and the font doesn't help.
I have always thought that Springfield, Missouri has among the most attractive layout for sign blades. The only bad thing is that it doesn't take to numbered streets too well.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F4%2F49%2FSpfd_MO_signblades.jpg%2F600px-Spfd_MO_signblades.jpg&hash=ae94558788fe9cbea4286a8f9e5fe24f65b19d70)
Kansas City, KS has a fairly spartan, yet attractive design, though it's in all caps. (Sadly I don't seem to have any photos handy.) It will be interesting to see how it translates to mixed-case–I didn't see any mixed-case signage the last time I was there, which was in July.
I have always thought that Springfield, Missouri has among the most attractive layout for sign blades. The only bad thing is that it doesn't take to numbered streets too well.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F4%2F49%2FSpfd_MO_signblades.jpg%2F600px-Spfd_MO_signblades.jpg&hash=ae94558788fe9cbea4286a8f9e5fe24f65b19d70)
Kansas City, KS has a fairly spartan, yet attractive design, though it's in all caps. (Sadly I don't seem to have any photos handy.) It will be interesting to see how it translates to mixed-case–I didn't see any mixed-case signage the last time I was there, which was in July.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: roadman65 on October 22, 2011, 08:31:45 PM
Post by: roadman65 on October 22, 2011, 08:31:45 PM
Orange County, FL street signs have been moved to mixed cases over 20 year period.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: burgess87 on October 23, 2011, 11:59:42 AM
Post by: burgess87 on October 23, 2011, 11:59:42 AM
The Town of Yates, NY has made the switch from all uppercase to mixed-case street blades. I'm about to go take a picture or two - will be back shortly.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on October 23, 2011, 06:24:12 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on October 23, 2011, 06:24:12 PM
Quote from: us175 on October 21, 2011, 09:54:19 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg3.imageshack.us%2Fimg3%2F4780%2Fnewjvillesigns.jpg&hash=6fc6a24229ce48c9e4a8d025d55ad4beb6ce7af2)
This new style is rolling out now in Jacksonville, TX. Apparently there was a popularity contest among 4 choices that locals got to vote on, and the style in the pic was the winner (this came from the local newspaper's website); I didn't get to see a pic of the other 3 choices, so I'm not sure whether Clearview was ever a consideration on any of them. I'm not sure what font this is, but I don't remember ever seeing it on a guide sign or blade before. This is the first instance of Jacksonville using a a city logo/image on their street blades and also the first to use any block numbering on them. This is also the first use of blue on street blades since the days when the city had the old concrete posts and dark blue coated metal signs. I have a pic somewhere in my stuff of one of the city's last known instances of that kind of sign; I'll try to post it later if I find it.
EDIT:::: Forgot, it's also the first local use of upper/lowercase. All known previous versions used uppercase.
They could have made it less cluttered by abbreviating Highway.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Takumi on October 24, 2011, 01:37:17 PM
Post by: Takumi on October 24, 2011, 01:37:17 PM
In the past few months my city has started to transition over from all caps, which they've used as long as I can remember, to mixed case on their new street blades, although the only new blades put up have been in a small area of the city, as most of the rest of the blades were replaced within the past five years. Here's an example of a surviving old (1990s) assembly...
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-KjAkgE1-KlE/TqWY9FLbc7I/AAAAAAAAAJQ/Smoa13MuzrM/s800/2011-10-23%25252014.49.04.jpg)
...a newer all-caps assembly (used from about 2005-spring 2011)...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bIZr2iT__-Y/TqWY6Y4M-eI/AAAAAAAAAIw/QFC0LItbFJ4/s800/2011-10-23%25252014.34.29.jpg)
...a small mixed-case assembly (used at intersections between side streets)...
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-0ySr0zty4Bg/TqWY754jKMI/AAAAAAAAAJA/lhCs6mHE1bA/s640/2011-10-23%25252014.40.28.jpg)
...a large mixed-case assembly at a main-road intersection (across the street from the 1990s one)...
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-lyVesCED8iY/TqWY_3yQfQI/AAAAAAAAAJo/GQHG8afw2Sk/s800/2011-10-23%25252014.47.17.jpg)
...and a very large mixed-case assembly at a side-street intersection.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-lnBSF-BWSGQ/TqWY_L5OFmI/AAAAAAAAAJg/AuyMKK-ugYc/s800/2011-10-23%25252014.53.42.jpg)
Chesterfield County started to use mixed-case blades in the 1990s. Here's a surviving older assembly, complete with white rectangles which the county no longer uses...
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-8C9nY_-xgKY/TqWY4w-fACI/AAAAAAAAAIk/YZ6wo6mNOyM/s800/2011-07-08%25252014.12.07.jpg)
...and the two generations of mixed-case blades. The River Rd one is the older of the two and was bent for some reason when this picture was taken (2008). These are unusual in that Chesterfield County now places the route number on the bottom right corner of the blade (instead of using a white rectangle), but did not for these.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-x0DdnEDsQc8/TqWZ4prf1FI/AAAAAAAAAKg/5ipX3MeC8h4/s640/1021081052.jpg)
Interestingly, Petersburg is doing the opposite as their newer blades are all caps while the older ones are pseudo-mixed (all caps, but the first letter is larger). I don't have any pictures of the new ones but I'll go get one and post the comparison later.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-KjAkgE1-KlE/TqWY9FLbc7I/AAAAAAAAAJQ/Smoa13MuzrM/s800/2011-10-23%25252014.49.04.jpg)
...a newer all-caps assembly (used from about 2005-spring 2011)...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bIZr2iT__-Y/TqWY6Y4M-eI/AAAAAAAAAIw/QFC0LItbFJ4/s800/2011-10-23%25252014.34.29.jpg)
...a small mixed-case assembly (used at intersections between side streets)...
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-0ySr0zty4Bg/TqWY754jKMI/AAAAAAAAAJA/lhCs6mHE1bA/s640/2011-10-23%25252014.40.28.jpg)
...a large mixed-case assembly at a main-road intersection (across the street from the 1990s one)...
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-lyVesCED8iY/TqWY_3yQfQI/AAAAAAAAAJo/GQHG8afw2Sk/s800/2011-10-23%25252014.47.17.jpg)
...and a very large mixed-case assembly at a side-street intersection.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-lnBSF-BWSGQ/TqWY_L5OFmI/AAAAAAAAAJg/AuyMKK-ugYc/s800/2011-10-23%25252014.53.42.jpg)
Chesterfield County started to use mixed-case blades in the 1990s. Here's a surviving older assembly, complete with white rectangles which the county no longer uses...
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-8C9nY_-xgKY/TqWY4w-fACI/AAAAAAAAAIk/YZ6wo6mNOyM/s800/2011-07-08%25252014.12.07.jpg)
...and the two generations of mixed-case blades. The River Rd one is the older of the two and was bent for some reason when this picture was taken (2008). These are unusual in that Chesterfield County now places the route number on the bottom right corner of the blade (instead of using a white rectangle), but did not for these.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-x0DdnEDsQc8/TqWZ4prf1FI/AAAAAAAAAKg/5ipX3MeC8h4/s640/1021081052.jpg)
Interestingly, Petersburg is doing the opposite as their newer blades are all caps while the older ones are pseudo-mixed (all caps, but the first letter is larger). I don't have any pictures of the new ones but I'll go get one and post the comparison later.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on October 24, 2011, 02:12:18 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on October 24, 2011, 02:12:18 PM
Do you know the height of the very large street name sign?
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 24, 2011, 02:27:43 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 24, 2011, 02:27:43 PM
Quote from: mjb2002 on October 24, 2011, 02:12:18 PM
Do you know the height of the very large street name sign?
Gills/Conduit are 8" tall each (using the 1" spacing of the holes in the square post as a guide). Perthshire/Wilkshire, which you had asked about, is a bit less resolution in the photo to be absolutely sure of, but it also looks to be 8" tall each.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Takumi on October 24, 2011, 02:47:28 PM
Post by: Takumi on October 24, 2011, 02:47:28 PM
Looking at them again, I think they are the same height, but the length of Wilkshire/Perthshire vs. Gills/Conduit made them seem larger overall.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Central Avenue on October 26, 2011, 02:37:46 PM
Post by: Central Avenue on October 26, 2011, 02:37:46 PM
Here's a nice comparison of the styles used in Columbus, Ohio:
The previous all-caps style:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1090.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi370%2Flongestaugust%2FDSCN5039.jpg&hash=4b6f153ab0addbfd4d2c18011f0ceeb8e398de87)
The new mixed-case style:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1090.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi370%2Flongestaugust%2FDSCN5036.jpg&hash=0b7cfb490d79df169fd71a1be4b6d1d7d29bfd77)
(Yes, the newer one is smaller, but that's simply because the older one is at a major intersection and the newer one is not)
The previous all-caps style:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1090.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi370%2Flongestaugust%2FDSCN5039.jpg&hash=4b6f153ab0addbfd4d2c18011f0ceeb8e398de87)
The new mixed-case style:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1090.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi370%2Flongestaugust%2FDSCN5036.jpg&hash=0b7cfb490d79df169fd71a1be4b6d1d7d29bfd77)
(Yes, the newer one is smaller, but that's simply because the older one is at a major intersection and the newer one is not)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on November 09, 2011, 01:18:43 AM
Post by: mjb2002 on November 09, 2011, 01:18:43 AM
When I went to buy something in Santee, I saw overhead street name signs in Orangeburg - along CANNON BRIDGE RD and JOHN C CALHOUN DR. I also noticed that the Orangeburg DOT has replaced the city limit signs AND the signs at the South Fork Edisto River - ALL with mixed-case signage, as well.
However, the g's look terrible on the non-street name signs that Orangeburg DOT has posted.
However, the g's look terrible on the non-street name signs that Orangeburg DOT has posted.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Brian556 on November 09, 2011, 05:24:17 PM
Post by: Brian556 on November 09, 2011, 05:24:17 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc395%2FBrian5561%2F10910002.jpg&hash=3a763cef6442428988a5ca806f894a17b7416e55)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc395%2FBrian5561%2F62011cc010.jpg&hash=f1c3c07574cc9d374a5555ea85563fc5cdd07296)
Highland Village, TX
First Pic:If you're gonna use UPPER/lower case, at least leave enough space at the bottom for the bottom portions of the lower case letters. The g's look horrible.
Second Pic:On the post-mounted blades, if any letters have a lower portion, they scoot the entire word up so that the bottoms of the letters are all level. That also looks bad, but it's better than the signal mounted example above.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc395%2FBrian5561%2F62011cc010.jpg&hash=f1c3c07574cc9d374a5555ea85563fc5cdd07296)
Highland Village, TX
First Pic:If you're gonna use UPPER/lower case, at least leave enough space at the bottom for the bottom portions of the lower case letters. The g's look horrible.
Second Pic:On the post-mounted blades, if any letters have a lower portion, they scoot the entire word up so that the bottoms of the letters are all level. That also looks bad, but it's better than the signal mounted example above.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: ftballfan on November 09, 2011, 09:43:28 PM
Post by: ftballfan on November 09, 2011, 09:43:28 PM
Grand Rapids has used mixed case for years, but there are still quite a few all-caps blades on the west side of Grand Rapids (even some on major streets at side streets).
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mgk920 on November 09, 2011, 10:41:56 PM
Post by: mgk920 on November 09, 2011, 10:41:56 PM
Also, the City of Madison, WI has used mixed-case for as long as I can remember (at least since the early 1980s).
Mike
Mike
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on November 10, 2011, 05:43:50 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on November 10, 2011, 05:43:50 PM
Those two signs are precisely why one foot is the FHWA-recommended minimum height of street name sign blades.
Quote from: Brian556 on November 09, 2011, 05:24:17 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc395%2FBrian5561%2F10910002.jpg&hash=3a763cef6442428988a5ca806f894a17b7416e55)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc395%2FBrian5561%2F62011cc010.jpg&hash=f1c3c07574cc9d374a5555ea85563fc5cdd07296)
Highland Village, TX
First Pic:If you're gonna use UPPER/lower case, at least leave enough space at the bottom for the bottom portions of the lower case letters. The g's look horrible.
Second Pic:On the post-mounted blades, if any letters have a lower portion, they scoot the entire word up so that the bottoms of the letters are all level. That also looks bad, but it's better than the signal mounted example above.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: apeman33 on November 11, 2011, 12:34:14 AM
Post by: apeman33 on November 11, 2011, 12:34:14 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 21, 2011, 10:17:19 PM
The placement of block numbering and cardinal direction makes it feel really cluttered, and the font doesn't help.
I have always thought that Springfield, Missouri has among the most attractive layout for sign blades. The only bad thing is that it doesn't take to numbered streets too well.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F4%2F49%2FSpfd_MO_signblades.jpg%2F600px-Spfd_MO_signblades.jpg&hash=ae94558788fe9cbea4286a8f9e5fe24f65b19d70)
Kansas City, KS has a fairly spartan, yet attractive design, though it's in all caps. (Sadly I don't seem to have any photos handy.) It will be interesting to see how it translates to mixed-case–I didn't see any mixed-case signage the last time I was there, which was in July.
I have always liked the way Springfield's street signs look. It's that font. Clean, well-spaced. I find it quite easy to see.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: route56 on November 11, 2011, 02:01:59 AM
Post by: route56 on November 11, 2011, 02:01:59 AM
You know, Lawrence, Kansas, has had mixed-case street blades since 1969 (that is NOT a typo).
Can't post a pic attm... website recovering from a hack.
Can't post a pic attm... website recovering from a hack.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on November 12, 2011, 01:11:27 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on November 12, 2011, 01:11:27 PM
Quote from: route56 on November 11, 2011, 02:01:59 AM
You know, Lawrence, Kansas, has had mixed-case street blades since 1969 (that is NOT a typo).
Can't post a pic attm... website recovering from a hack.
42 years? WOW! I'll bet that Aiken County, S.C. has had mixed case street name signs for even longer than that!
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: route56 on November 13, 2011, 01:13:01 AM
Post by: route56 on November 13, 2011, 01:13:01 AM
Quote from: mjb2002 on November 12, 2011, 01:11:27 PMQuote from: route56 on November 11, 2011, 02:01:59 AM
You know, Lawrence, Kansas, has had mixed-case street blades since 1969 (that is NOT a typo).
42 years? WOW! I'll bet that Aiken County, S.C. has had mixed case street name signs for even longer than that!
Yeah, but were/are they 9" signs?
Original style - this sign is circa lat 80s to early 90s
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.route56.com%2Fgallery%2Fzp-core%2Fi.php%3Fa%3D2011%2FNov11%26amp%3Bi%3D42810.JPG%26amp%3Bs%3D550%26amp%3Bq%3D85&hash=44b68852d5c96c39654addbed2f202507c8c2f2f)
Current style - As adopted c. 2001
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.route56.com%2Fgallery%2Fzp-core%2Fi.php%3Fa%3D2011%2FNov11%26amp%3Bi%3D42811.JPG%26amp%3Bs%3D550%26amp%3Bq%3D85&hash=4174e692ca5b6c31fc7bbe978cc95af903c52d53)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: apeman33 on November 13, 2011, 01:17:35 AM
Post by: apeman33 on November 13, 2011, 01:17:35 AM
Quote from: route56 on November 11, 2011, 02:01:59 AM
You know, Lawrence, Kansas, has had mixed-case street blades since 1969 (that is NOT a typo).
Can't post a pic attm... website recovering from a hack.
Didn't know it has been that long, though I have seen some of the older ones. Lawrence's design is another favorite and it might also be the first place that I saw the highway shields on the blades on the traffic signals.
There are K-126 shelds on the blades on the signals at 4th and Walnut, 4th and Locust and 4th and Rouse in Pittsburg.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: US71 on November 13, 2011, 01:45:15 AM
Post by: US71 on November 13, 2011, 01:45:15 AM
Fayetteville, AR is slowly changing to mixed-case Clearview though there are still plenty of old-style signage. One intersection has mixed old/new signage.
Fort Smith has yet to change. Newer signs still appear to be all caps, but leaning towards Clearview.
Fort Smith has yet to change. Newer signs still appear to be all caps, but leaning towards Clearview.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on November 13, 2011, 09:43:00 AM
Post by: mjb2002 on November 13, 2011, 09:43:00 AM
Quote from: route56 on November 13, 2011, 01:13:01 AMQuote from: mjb2002 on November 12, 2011, 01:11:27 PMQuote from: route56 on November 11, 2011, 02:01:59 AM
You know, Lawrence, Kansas, has had mixed-case street blades since 1969 (that is NOT a typo).
42 years? WOW! I'll bet that Aiken County, S.C. has had mixed case street name signs for even longer than that!
Yeah, but were/are they 9" signs?
Original style - this sign is circa lat 80s to early 90s
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgallery.route56.com%2Falbums%2F2011%2FNov11%2F42810.JPG&hash=ebbe2ac5f7d8b8984af74e971aa9364a668db481)
Current style - As adopted c. 2001
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgallery.route56.com%2Falbums%2F2011%2FNov11%2F42811.JPG&hash=71f784102bf8915935d45b66c3c5be7eee6b8e4d)
Whoops. They were half a foot until last fall in Aiken County, when they started installing 8-9 inch blades.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on November 13, 2011, 10:11:54 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 13, 2011, 10:11:54 PM
Quote from: US71 on November 13, 2011, 01:45:15 AM
Fayetteville, AR is slowly changing to mixed-case Clearview though there are still plenty of old-style signage. One intersection has mixed old/new signage.
Fort Smith has yet to change. Newer signs still appear to be all caps, but leaning towards Clearview.
Mena looks to be mostly switched over to mixed case Clearview, at least from what I saw on US 71 and AR 88 last Wednesday.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: surferdude on November 13, 2011, 10:18:04 PM
Post by: surferdude on November 13, 2011, 10:18:04 PM
Clearview letters have been used in PA for a couple of years now. Looks like that is what is going to happen to NYC.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on November 16, 2011, 07:39:38 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on November 16, 2011, 07:39:38 PM
Quote from: surferdude on November 13, 2011, 10:18:04 PM
Clearview letters have been used in PA for a couple of years now. Looks like that is what is going to happen to NYC.
Most states have Clearview ready for use, but very few municipalities in the states are using it.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: surferdude on November 18, 2011, 10:21:38 PM
Post by: surferdude on November 18, 2011, 10:21:38 PM
Quote from: mjb2002 on November 16, 2011, 07:39:38 PMQuote from: surferdude on November 13, 2011, 10:18:04 PM
Clearview letters have been used in PA for a couple of years now. Looks like that is what is going to happen to NYC.
Most states have Clearview ready for use, but very few municipalities in the states are using it.
MUTCD 2009 states
The Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD) has revised its recommendations to improve the legibility of street sign names.
According to the MUTCD....
"Lettering on street name signs should be at least 6 inches high. If upper case and lower case letters are used, then the upper case letters would be 6 inches with 4-1/2-inch lower case letters.
Abbreviated lettering to indicate the type of street or section of city may be in smaller lettering, at least 3 inches high. However, for local roads with less than 25 mph speed limits, the lettering may be a minimum of 4 inches with 2-inch letters for street abbreviations or city sections.
The street name sign shall be retroreflectorized to show the same shape and color day and night. The legend and background shall be of contrasting colors."
2. Reflectivity
Signs with reflective background sheeting are brighter and easier to read for all drivers. Give your street signs maximum visibility with high intensity reflective sheeting.
3. Contrast
White letters on a green background provide good contrast day or night.
4. Width
Street name signs typically use Series B or C letters. Using upper and lower case letters is usually more readable than upper case letters alone.
5. Letter-to-letter spacing
Studies have shown that legibility improves with increased spacing between letters.
6. Border
White borders make street name signs easier to locate and increases visibility as well.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on January 07, 2012, 07:03:24 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on January 07, 2012, 07:03:24 PM
Saw new signs.
In Aiken, new overhead street name signs at WHISKEY and DOUGHERTY RD. That sign is in all uppercase.
The other signs are in mixed case - and almost all of them look downright awful.
TYLER ST actually looks like TVLER ST in Aiken.
There is a mixed-case sign of the Montmorenci Town Limits going east towards Williston. That is the only mixed case sign of place names that look decent.
The others -- all in Bamberg County -- look downright awful.
One at the intersection of CAROLINA HY and BARNWELL RD looks like it is bolded.
And you can hardly see the g's on the other mixed-case signs of places in Denmark - those signs look just as bad as the Orangeburg City Limit and Bamberg City Limit signs.
I really am not looking forward to seeing the Wagener Town Limit sign in mixed case after what I saw.
In Aiken, new overhead street name signs at WHISKEY and DOUGHERTY RD. That sign is in all uppercase.
The other signs are in mixed case - and almost all of them look downright awful.
TYLER ST actually looks like TVLER ST in Aiken.
There is a mixed-case sign of the Montmorenci Town Limits going east towards Williston. That is the only mixed case sign of place names that look decent.
The others -- all in Bamberg County -- look downright awful.
One at the intersection of CAROLINA HY and BARNWELL RD looks like it is bolded.
And you can hardly see the g's on the other mixed-case signs of places in Denmark - those signs look just as bad as the Orangeburg City Limit and Bamberg City Limit signs.
I really am not looking forward to seeing the Wagener Town Limit sign in mixed case after what I saw.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Brian556 on January 12, 2012, 02:45:53 PM
Post by: Brian556 on January 12, 2012, 02:45:53 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc395%2FBrian5561%2F11212005.jpg&hash=5ce2a0754f5039b7905aa43dc13950b5f2e8991c)
Frisco, TX. Too much space between letters if you ask me.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc395%2FBrian5561%2F11212006.jpg&hash=91c2121dc53ac3403faba041d2fd742508a7d3c8)
Little Elm, TX. The "Eldorado" text is too narrow, and the font isn't very good. These are hard to read
Frisco, TX. Too much space between letters if you ask me.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc395%2FBrian5561%2F11212006.jpg&hash=91c2121dc53ac3403faba041d2fd742508a7d3c8)
Little Elm, TX. The "Eldorado" text is too narrow, and the font isn't very good. These are hard to read
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on January 13, 2012, 01:40:50 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on January 13, 2012, 01:40:50 PM
Quote from: Brian556 on January 12, 2012, 02:45:53 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc395%2FBrian5561%2F11212005.jpg&hash=5ce2a0754f5039b7905aa43dc13950b5f2e8991c)
Frisco, TX. Too much space between letters if you ask me.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc395%2FBrian5561%2F11212006.jpg&hash=91c2121dc53ac3403faba041d2fd742508a7d3c8)
Little Elm, TX. The "Eldorado" text is too narrow, and the font isn't very good. These are hard to read
I can tell that Frisco didn't use Clearview Blend, because of the how the numbers look. Also, I am not a fan of rounded numbering, either. I prefer exact numbering of address when put on a sign. That is the only thing positive I can say about Barnwell County's signs.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: brownpelican on February 07, 2012, 12:32:57 PM
Post by: brownpelican on February 07, 2012, 12:32:57 PM
Apologies for bumping this thread, but unincorporated Saint Tammany Parish is replacing their old and faded blades with this:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb55.webshots.com%2F49718%2F2252187570046960331S600x600Q85.jpg&hash=49d5228673f8ab942bdf09be53e1610adf213f88) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2252187570046960331eGIKdm)
And this was found at the entrance to a private business near Folsom:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb60.webshots.com%2F49979%2F2244537330046960331S600x600Q85.jpg&hash=1573dbf11ef6e02711aadc28fe1f5f99b73c8e7d) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2244537330046960331tZPHjL)
Finally, this is what you'll see in Baton Rouge...unless you come across the illuminated Clearview blades (yes, the shot is a few years old):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb63.webshots.com%2F50238%2F2973718630046960331S600x600Q85.jpg&hash=0c592ed1c20241645a3e9bd42b90239fa18f59bc) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2973718630046960331CTNldH)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb55.webshots.com%2F49718%2F2252187570046960331S600x600Q85.jpg&hash=49d5228673f8ab942bdf09be53e1610adf213f88) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2252187570046960331eGIKdm)
And this was found at the entrance to a private business near Folsom:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb60.webshots.com%2F49979%2F2244537330046960331S600x600Q85.jpg&hash=1573dbf11ef6e02711aadc28fe1f5f99b73c8e7d) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2244537330046960331tZPHjL)
Finally, this is what you'll see in Baton Rouge...unless you come across the illuminated Clearview blades (yes, the shot is a few years old):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb63.webshots.com%2F50238%2F2973718630046960331S600x600Q85.jpg&hash=0c592ed1c20241645a3e9bd42b90239fa18f59bc) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2973718630046960331CTNldH)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Takumi on February 07, 2012, 11:42:46 PM
Post by: Takumi on February 07, 2012, 11:42:46 PM
I've seen a few mixed case blades appearing in Petersburg recently. Before that, they had gone from semi-mixed (all caps but the first letter was bigger) to all caps.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: brownpelican on March 25, 2012, 11:25:42 PM
Post by: brownpelican on March 25, 2012, 11:25:42 PM
Apologies for bumping this, but I've found new blades in my area:
My town (ugly as hell if you ask me):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb18.webshots.com%2F47249%2F2637873690046960331S500x500Q85.jpg&hash=c6aa7ae8634b89c1f1300f7b1a8fbb3959108356) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2637873690046960331sxMGlX)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb63.webshots.com%2F49214%2F2249954480046960331S500x500Q85.jpg&hash=b46025f85bbe63f46d6d3e47d443368e0af065b7) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2249954480046960331Lzrvce)
Independence, LA (installed earlier this month):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb32.webshots.com%2F50527%2F2861756670046960331S500x500Q85.jpg&hash=7cdd70c32055d83ae040d7193d48f3e48385f3f6) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2861756670046960331wbkNdp)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb31.webshots.com%2F50526%2F2928436490046960331S500x500Q85.jpg&hash=c32ef331c5f0b7eb6bc79586ab5d8cc5aa876368) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2928436490046960331FIdEvz)
Hammond, LA have had these blades for a while now:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb10.webshots.com%2F48329%2F2977984750046960331S500x500Q85.jpg&hash=db62778d7551d4208923761af75c4740a8827865) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2977984750046960331srnULS)
Southeastern Louisiana University use these blades...some need replacing.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb20.webshots.com%2F47763%2F2498375100046960331S500x500Q85.jpg&hash=69947f6fc88135964dc3a67dc3c5dcb13b689e8b) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2498375100046960331OEZkAO)
My town (ugly as hell if you ask me):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb18.webshots.com%2F47249%2F2637873690046960331S500x500Q85.jpg&hash=c6aa7ae8634b89c1f1300f7b1a8fbb3959108356) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2637873690046960331sxMGlX)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb63.webshots.com%2F49214%2F2249954480046960331S500x500Q85.jpg&hash=b46025f85bbe63f46d6d3e47d443368e0af065b7) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2249954480046960331Lzrvce)
Independence, LA (installed earlier this month):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb32.webshots.com%2F50527%2F2861756670046960331S500x500Q85.jpg&hash=7cdd70c32055d83ae040d7193d48f3e48385f3f6) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2861756670046960331wbkNdp)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb31.webshots.com%2F50526%2F2928436490046960331S500x500Q85.jpg&hash=c32ef331c5f0b7eb6bc79586ab5d8cc5aa876368) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2928436490046960331FIdEvz)
Hammond, LA have had these blades for a while now:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb10.webshots.com%2F48329%2F2977984750046960331S500x500Q85.jpg&hash=db62778d7551d4208923761af75c4740a8827865) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2977984750046960331srnULS)
Southeastern Louisiana University use these blades...some need replacing.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finlinethumb20.webshots.com%2F47763%2F2498375100046960331S500x500Q85.jpg&hash=69947f6fc88135964dc3a67dc3c5dcb13b689e8b) (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2498375100046960331OEZkAO)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: TheStranger on May 17, 2012, 06:10:15 AM
Post by: TheStranger on May 17, 2012, 06:10:15 AM
Don't have a photo yet, but saw a mixed-case San Francisco streetblade for Eucalyptus Drive (off of Route 1/19th Avenue) last week. Totally stands out when the "Street name in all caps, rarely street type" look has been so much a part of the SF signing aesthetic for years.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: agentsteel53 on May 17, 2012, 11:25:09 AM
Post by: agentsteel53 on May 17, 2012, 11:25:09 AM
Quote from: TheStranger on May 17, 2012, 06:10:15 AM
Don't have a photo yet, but saw a mixed-case San Francisco streetblade for Eucalyptus Drive (off of Route 1/19th Avenue) last week. Totally stands out when the "Street name in all caps, rarely street type" look has been so much a part of the SF signing aesthetic for years.
is this a new replacement trend, or is this just a one-off?
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: TheStranger on May 17, 2012, 03:21:47 PM
Post by: TheStranger on May 17, 2012, 03:21:47 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 17, 2012, 11:25:09 AMQuote from: TheStranger on May 17, 2012, 06:10:15 AM
Don't have a photo yet, but saw a mixed-case San Francisco streetblade for Eucalyptus Drive (off of Route 1/19th Avenue) last week. Totally stands out when the "Street name in all caps, rarely street type" look has been so much a part of the SF signing aesthetic for years.
is this a new replacement trend, or is this just a one-off?
I saw a couple of new mixed-case street blades in unincorporated Sacramento (at Folsom & Watt south of US 50) a few months ago so...I'll have to keep looking and see if more of these pop up there and in SF.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: flowmotion on May 17, 2012, 09:07:55 PM
Post by: flowmotion on May 17, 2012, 09:07:55 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 17, 2012, 11:25:09 AMQuote from: TheStranger on May 17, 2012, 06:10:15 AM
Don't have a photo yet, but saw a mixed-case San Francisco streetblade for Eucalyptus Drive (off of Route 1/19th Avenue) last week. Totally stands out when the "Street name in all caps, rarely street type" look has been so much a part of the SF signing aesthetic for years.
is this a new replacement trend, or is this just a one-off?
Mixed case signs are popping up in different places, so it looks like a trend. I saw one on Diamond Heights Blvd and a couple in Golden Gate Park. Haven't had a chance to grab a pic yet either.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: CentralCAroadgeek on May 24, 2012, 08:36:52 PM
Post by: CentralCAroadgeek on May 24, 2012, 08:36:52 PM
Although not new installations, I've always liked street blades in the city of Santa Cruz:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com%2F7093%2F7264829522_c168bb8996_c.jpg&hash=1091a6e7171035ae74e22df16ae76f6354e3ce03)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com%2F7093%2F7264829522_c168bb8996_c.jpg&hash=1091a6e7171035ae74e22df16ae76f6354e3ce03)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on May 24, 2012, 08:55:13 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 24, 2012, 08:55:13 PM
That is a very tasteful design, though I don't like the practice of having two back-to-back blades posted for each street. It looks worse to my eyes and I'm sure it's more expensive since you're using twice as much metal. Oklahoma City did that for a while and fortunately seems to have stopped it.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Alps on May 25, 2012, 07:08:57 PM
Post by: Alps on May 25, 2012, 07:08:57 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 24, 2012, 08:55:13 PMOne sheet works if your sign blades are structural enough so that the upper one can sit on the lower one, which in turn sits on top of the pole. I can't see this being much of a problem, seeing as how metal is hard.
That is a very tasteful design, though I don't like the practice of having two back-to-back blades posted for each street. It looks worse to my eyes and I'm sure it's more expensive since you're using twice as much metal. Oklahoma City did that for a while and fortunately seems to have stopped it.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on May 25, 2012, 07:20:39 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 25, 2012, 07:20:39 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 25, 2012, 07:08:57 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on May 24, 2012, 08:55:13 PMOne sheet works if your sign blades are structural enough so that the upper one can sit on the lower one, which in turn sits on top of the pole. I can't see this being much of a problem, seeing as how metal is hard.
That is a very tasteful design, though I don't like the practice of having two back-to-back blades posted for each street. It looks worse to my eyes and I'm sure it's more expensive since you're using twice as much metal. Oklahoma City did that for a while and fortunately seems to have stopped it.
Yeah, Norman doesn't have any problem with it whatsoever. (They use flat sheet aluminum, too, not the thicker I-beam-shaped blades that some cities use.)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Alps on May 25, 2012, 07:36:45 PM
Post by: Alps on May 25, 2012, 07:36:45 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 25, 2012, 07:20:39 PMI thought about the I-beam point, but realized that that won't do a thing for the vertical stability of the sign - it would still buckle right down the middle. You'd need vertical bracing, and since signs haven't used that before, no reason why they need to now.Quote from: Steve on May 25, 2012, 07:08:57 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on May 24, 2012, 08:55:13 PMOne sheet works if your sign blades are structural enough so that the upper one can sit on the lower one, which in turn sits on top of the pole. I can't see this being much of a problem, seeing as how metal is hard.
That is a very tasteful design, though I don't like the practice of having two back-to-back blades posted for each street. It looks worse to my eyes and I'm sure it's more expensive since you're using twice as much metal. Oklahoma City did that for a while and fortunately seems to have stopped it.
Yeah, Norman doesn't have any problem with it whatsoever. (They use flat sheet aluminum, too, not the thicker I-beam-shaped blades that some cities use.)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Brian556 on May 25, 2012, 09:06:46 PM
Post by: Brian556 on May 25, 2012, 09:06:46 PM
Using two single-faced signs per street is a very reliable way to prevent sign loss by theft or wind damage. It is virtually impossible for vandals to remove them.
The "I-beam", more commonly known as "extruded" sign blade, is stronger and prevents bending by strong winds. It is stronger at the points that the brackets attach to.
This is also very helpful in preventing theft, because juveniles will typically put their body weight on the sign, and cause the aluminum to break around the post cap bracket.
The "I-beam", more commonly known as "extruded" sign blade, is stronger and prevents bending by strong winds. It is stronger at the points that the brackets attach to.
This is also very helpful in preventing theft, because juveniles will typically put their body weight on the sign, and cause the aluminum to break around the post cap bracket.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: HighwayMaster on May 27, 2012, 09:53:28 PM
Post by: HighwayMaster on May 27, 2012, 09:53:28 PM
Plain Township near Canton has no idea what they are doing. Their new blades have only the first letter of the street name capitalized; everything else, including the road type and "NW" or "NE" is lowercase. So here's what you get: "Schneider st ne". Not "Schneider St NE".
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on May 27, 2012, 10:45:25 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 27, 2012, 10:45:25 PM
Quote from: HighwayMaster on May 27, 2012, 09:53:28 PM
Plain Township near Canton has no idea what they are doing. Their new blades have only the first letter of the street name capitalized; everything else, including the road type and "NW" or "NE" is lowercase. So here's what you get: "Schneider st ne". Not "Schneider St NE".
Writing in all caps is certainly useful as a way of masking someone's inability to capitalize properly.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: PurdueBill on May 27, 2012, 10:54:02 PM
Post by: PurdueBill on May 27, 2012, 10:54:02 PM
Quote from: HighwayMaster on May 27, 2012, 09:53:28 PM
Plain Township near Canton has no idea what they are doing. Their new blades have only the first letter of the street name capitalized; everything else, including the road type and "NW" or "NE" is lowercase. So here's what you get: "Schneider st ne". Not "Schneider St NE".
I can hear it now.....someone saying "well, they said that the Feds want only the first letter capitalized so that's what I did!" Sigh.
The only way those signs could be better* is if they are in Comic Sans or the "Slow down my daddy/mommy works here" lettering. They aren't, are they?
*by "better", I mean "worse"
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: citrus on May 30, 2012, 07:20:54 PM
Post by: citrus on May 30, 2012, 07:20:54 PM
Quote from: flowmotion on May 17, 2012, 09:07:55 PMQuote from: agentsteel53 on May 17, 2012, 11:25:09 AMQuote from: TheStranger on May 17, 2012, 06:10:15 AM
Don't have a photo yet, but saw a mixed-case San Francisco streetblade for Eucalyptus Drive (off of Route 1/19th Avenue) last week. Totally stands out when the "Street name in all caps, rarely street type" look has been so much a part of the SF signing aesthetic for years.
is this a new replacement trend, or is this just a one-off?
Mixed case signs are popping up in different places, so it looks like a trend. I saw one on Diamond Heights Blvd and a couple in Golden Gate Park. Haven't had a chance to grab a pic yet either.
I was in SF last weekend and saw a whole slew of mixed-case signs, mostly in the Marina area. They looked strange to me, bu they weren't outlandish. No pics from me either :(
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: flowmotion on June 01, 2012, 02:39:54 PM
Post by: flowmotion on June 01, 2012, 02:39:54 PM
fyi: Eric Fischer has a bunch of the new style SF signs posted on his Flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/walkingsf/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/walkingsf/
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: CentralCAroadgeek on June 01, 2012, 06:32:56 PM
Post by: CentralCAroadgeek on June 01, 2012, 06:32:56 PM
Just saw those new SF street blades, they do look strange. It looks way better in all caps.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on June 09, 2012, 11:15:28 AM
Post by: mjb2002 on June 09, 2012, 11:15:28 AM
Yesterday, I saw two new mixed-case street name sign blades in Barnwell County - one of which is to the east of my high school alma mater (Williston-Elko) at Main & Clemson Streets.
Also saw three new mixed-case destination signs, including one at the same general location.
Also saw three new mixed-case destination signs, including one at the same general location.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: citrus on June 14, 2012, 09:57:51 PM
Post by: citrus on June 14, 2012, 09:57:51 PM
Here's a blog post about the mixed-case San Francisco signs. http://40goingon28.blogspot.com/2012/06/street-sign-apocalypse.html
It's attracting non-roadgeek attention!
It's attracting non-roadgeek attention!
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: bulkyorled on June 15, 2012, 02:04:01 AM
Post by: bulkyorled on June 15, 2012, 02:04:01 AM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m3vqz26XeP1rob8r8o1_500.png&hash=b06c9917a21331f2d7f13393c43eab4073e2abc8)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m0c78h8Ins1rob8r8o1_500.jpg&hash=fafdaee5062d857ec3645e31de4b9826db562264)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m0ajeuOSZD1rob8r8o1_500.png&hash=39f37e3b2ceb2a7a8e7cab764b970ba85b028708)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m5na1yyeek1rob8r8o2_250.jpg&hash=dea414b9671b88fdafc709387c74ddb14ec58681)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m5na1yyeek1rob8r8o1_500.jpg&hash=c2ca3c597ddafc898b05b106c90b489fe2e189a2)
These are some of my favorite, which coincidentally, 4/5 of them are the cities closest to me.
Calabasas, Burbank, Los Angeles, San Fernando, and Glendale. (kind of a rip off on the San Francisco ones) they're all rather simple but bold in my opinion. The green burbank ones aren't like the other green ones I see where it's just a bland flimsy strip. These got some oomph to them haha The San Fernando signs are part of a larger collection of pictures I took of all the designs that exist of San Fernando, and the San Jose was just a coincidence...
Even the newer ones here are mostly lowercase, San Fernando just got new ones recently within the past 2 years and they're all upper case but a few old ones still exist and they were all lowercase.
Opinions on them?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m0c78h8Ins1rob8r8o1_500.jpg&hash=fafdaee5062d857ec3645e31de4b9826db562264)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m0ajeuOSZD1rob8r8o1_500.png&hash=39f37e3b2ceb2a7a8e7cab764b970ba85b028708)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m5na1yyeek1rob8r8o2_250.jpg&hash=dea414b9671b88fdafc709387c74ddb14ec58681)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m5na1yyeek1rob8r8o1_500.jpg&hash=c2ca3c597ddafc898b05b106c90b489fe2e189a2)
These are some of my favorite, which coincidentally, 4/5 of them are the cities closest to me.
Calabasas, Burbank, Los Angeles, San Fernando, and Glendale. (kind of a rip off on the San Francisco ones) they're all rather simple but bold in my opinion. The green burbank ones aren't like the other green ones I see where it's just a bland flimsy strip. These got some oomph to them haha The San Fernando signs are part of a larger collection of pictures I took of all the designs that exist of San Fernando, and the San Jose was just a coincidence...
Even the newer ones here are mostly lowercase, San Fernando just got new ones recently within the past 2 years and they're all upper case but a few old ones still exist and they were all lowercase.
Opinions on them?
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: myosh_tino on June 15, 2012, 02:09:31 AM
Post by: myosh_tino on June 15, 2012, 02:09:31 AM
On a personal note, I am quite surprised that San Francisco is actually implementing this requirement from the 2009 MUTCD. At least they didn't change the blade color to a boring green!
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on June 15, 2012, 10:11:54 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 15, 2012, 10:11:54 AM
Why bother complying with the MUTCD color or capitalization requirements if you're just going to violate it by using a stupid font?
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Central Avenue on June 15, 2012, 12:05:41 PM
Post by: Central Avenue on June 15, 2012, 12:05:41 PM
Why do places that use Helvetica for street signs always seem to compress it? I wouldn't mind it otherwise, but type-stretching is just ugly.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: blawp on June 15, 2012, 01:51:19 PM
Post by: blawp on June 15, 2012, 01:51:19 PM
Wanna see a readable font? Take a look at the blades in Thousand Oaks or Santa Barbara.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on June 16, 2012, 04:45:21 AM
Post by: mjb2002 on June 16, 2012, 04:45:21 AM
Quote from: blawp on June 15, 2012, 01:51:19 PM
Wanna see a readable font? Take a look at the blades in Thousand Oaks or Santa Barbara.
Most Sans Serif fonts are readable. The only ones that I have known to be unreadable on street name signs are as follows:
Aharoni
The AR Font Series
Bauhaus 93
Berlin Series
Brittanic
Broadway
Brush Script
Calibri
Candara
Chiller
Comic Sans
Consolas
Courier
Curlz
Edwardian Script
FixedSys
Forte
Franklin Gothic
Freestyle Script
French Script
Gabriola
Gigi
Gill Sans
Harlow Solid
Harrington
Jokerman
Kristen ITC
Kunstler Script
Lucida Handwriting
Magneto
Maiandra
Matisse
Matura MT Script
Mistral
Papyrus
Pristina
Rage
Script
Segoe (except Segoe UI)
Showcard Gothic
Small Fonts
System
Tempus Sans ITC
Trebuchet
Viner Hand ITC
Vivaldi
Vladimir Script
That is the list I was able to come up with based on a number of factors.
I have no problem with Arial or Helvetica - as long as the letters are in the proper format, i.e. mixed case.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on June 16, 2012, 11:55:34 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 16, 2012, 11:55:34 AM
There are of course far more typefaces in the world than come with your copy of Windows.
We can debate the merits of various typefaces but the fact of the matter is, in the eyes of FHWA, every font in the world is going to be on that list except for FHWA Series and Clearview.
We can debate the merits of various typefaces but the fact of the matter is, in the eyes of FHWA, every font in the world is going to be on that list except for FHWA Series and Clearview.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Alps on June 17, 2012, 01:08:50 AM
Post by: Alps on June 17, 2012, 01:08:50 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 16, 2012, 11:55:34 AMAnd Clarendon, if you're another Federal agency. :P
There are of course far more typefaces in the world than come with your copy of Windows.
We can debate the merits of various typefaces but the fact of the matter is, in the eyes of FHWA, every font in the world is going to be on that list except for FHWA Series and Clearview.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: CentralCAroadgeek on July 09, 2012, 01:05:58 AM
Post by: CentralCAroadgeek on July 09, 2012, 01:05:58 AM
Monterey Clarendon, all-caps street blades:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com%2F7118%2F7533281430_af47ed9706_c.jpg&hash=a5319793396235c13898dfbe020be4741d9b3002)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com%2F7118%2F7533281430_af47ed9706_c.jpg&hash=a5319793396235c13898dfbe020be4741d9b3002)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: bulkyorled on July 09, 2012, 01:15:48 AM
Post by: bulkyorled on July 09, 2012, 01:15:48 AM
I'm thinking Monterey County is a fan of Clarendon
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: CentralCAroadgeek on July 09, 2012, 01:18:47 AM
Post by: CentralCAroadgeek on July 09, 2012, 01:18:47 AM
Quote from: bulkyorled on July 09, 2012, 01:15:48 AM
I'm thinking Monterey County is a fan of Clarendon
Not sure about southern Monterey County, but it definitely is true up north, especially here in Salinas.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on July 14, 2012, 04:27:14 AM
Post by: mjb2002 on July 14, 2012, 04:27:14 AM
Quote from: CentralCAroadgeek on July 09, 2012, 01:05:58 AM
Monterey Clarendon, all-caps street blades:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com%2F7118%2F7533281430_af47ed9706_c.jpg&hash=a5319793396235c13898dfbe020be4741d9b3002)
Decent, for an all uppercase Street Name sign. There are some fonts that should never be in mixed-case EXCEPT on newspapers and other print media. Clarendon is one such font.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on July 14, 2012, 10:42:24 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on July 14, 2012, 10:42:24 AM
What's wrong with mixed case Clarendon?
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: CentralCAroadgeek on July 14, 2012, 11:50:55 AM
Post by: CentralCAroadgeek on July 14, 2012, 11:50:55 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 14, 2012, 10:42:24 AM
What's wrong with mixed case Clarendon?
It just looks plain ugly, even more in how it's posted here in Salinas (As I've covered before)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on July 14, 2012, 12:33:13 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on July 14, 2012, 12:33:13 PM
From what I've seen of your pics, a lot of the Clarendon in Salinas is horizontally squished or otherwise misapplied (barring the fact that it really shouldn't be on road signs anyway). It's not that bad when someone isn't doing awful things to it.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: CentralCAroadgeek on July 14, 2012, 12:54:42 PM
Post by: CentralCAroadgeek on July 14, 2012, 12:54:42 PM
I've never really noticed Clarendon outside my area (i.e. national parks), so I don't know what "correct" Clarendon is.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on July 14, 2012, 01:11:19 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on July 14, 2012, 01:11:19 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FoOczo.png&hash=2681c876969ce3138e861b7109e4d69c7cd2c392)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: CentralCAroadgeek on July 14, 2012, 01:15:39 PM
Post by: CentralCAroadgeek on July 14, 2012, 01:15:39 PM
How about a sign for visualization? (Sorry)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Central Avenue on July 14, 2012, 03:19:56 PM
Post by: Central Avenue on July 14, 2012, 03:19:56 PM
From Wikipedia's Clarendon article:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fb%2Fbe%2FClarendon_sign.jpg%2F640px-Clarendon_sign.jpg&hash=2935e2bc5eb70d8c84f0e57c3dfa1db2bc21b0ac)
It's a US National Park Service sign, if you're wondering. Clarendon was their standard typeface for many years, though now they use Rawlinson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPS_Rawlinson_Roadway) instead.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fb%2Fbe%2FClarendon_sign.jpg%2F640px-Clarendon_sign.jpg&hash=2935e2bc5eb70d8c84f0e57c3dfa1db2bc21b0ac)
It's a US National Park Service sign, if you're wondering. Clarendon was their standard typeface for many years, though now they use Rawlinson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPS_Rawlinson_Roadway) instead.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: CentralCAroadgeek on July 14, 2012, 03:58:28 PM
Post by: CentralCAroadgeek on July 14, 2012, 03:58:28 PM
That doesn't look pretty bad... Now just show that picture to whoever designs the signs here in Salinas so they can get a sense of what Clarendon should look like...
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: bulkyorled on July 16, 2012, 01:27:56 PM
Post by: bulkyorled on July 16, 2012, 01:27:56 PM
It's amazing they've not put Clarendon on their illuminated signs. I wouldn't put it past them to replace them with reflective ones with Clarendon.... :crazy:
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: CentralCAroadgeek on July 16, 2012, 01:42:21 PM
Post by: CentralCAroadgeek on July 16, 2012, 01:42:21 PM
Oh there ARE reflective street name signs in Clarendon, though I don't recall any being illuminated (Thankfully). Here, it's just Highway Gothic and some Clearview mixed in.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: CentralCAroadgeek on July 30, 2012, 12:33:02 AM
Post by: CentralCAroadgeek on July 30, 2012, 12:33:02 AM
The City of Benicia uses an uppercase Helvetica/Arial on their street blades:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8292%2F7634652252_d9049e5de7_c.jpg&hash=0110387b243c699da6eec9e39b8fd03f45b42b79)
In Washington, the City of Bremerton uses this distinctive mixed-case font on their street blades:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com%2F7109%2F7674278048_cb2062e368_c.jpg&hash=530af1171a049fccd41074c04f0fdbf342e741fa)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8292%2F7634652252_d9049e5de7_c.jpg&hash=0110387b243c699da6eec9e39b8fd03f45b42b79)
In Washington, the City of Bremerton uses this distinctive mixed-case font on their street blades:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com%2F7109%2F7674278048_cb2062e368_c.jpg&hash=530af1171a049fccd41074c04f0fdbf342e741fa)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on July 30, 2012, 12:46:24 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on July 30, 2012, 12:46:24 AM
^Futura Condensed.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on July 31, 2012, 10:23:11 AM
Post by: mjb2002 on July 31, 2012, 10:23:11 AM
Quote from: CentralCAroadgeek on July 30, 2012, 12:33:02 AM
The City of Benicia uses an uppercase Helvetica/Arial on their street blades:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8292%2F7634652252_d9049e5de7_c.jpg&hash=0110387b243c699da6eec9e39b8fd03f45b42b79)
I gotta tell ya, Helvetica does NOT look attractive at all when the sign is composed of all uppercase letters. I should know - about 93% of the signs Barnwell County installed from Thanksgiving Day 1997 to November 30, 2011 are all uppercase lettered Helvetica. They just replaced some of those signs, including at the east end of my grandmother's street, but primarily in the areas where the signposts fail crashworthy compliance AND where the signs fail minimum the letter height compliance (NOTE: I just found out that they actually have the minimum letter height standards listed in Section 2D.06, paragraph 3; which is why the FHWA eliminated the January 9 deadline for Street Name signs upgrades).
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Brian556 on August 17, 2012, 02:38:37 PM
Post by: Brian556 on August 17, 2012, 02:38:37 PM
Lewisville, Tx's new style. I do not like it.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc395%2FBrian5561%2F81712001.jpg&hash=3b60fd02dc54b547c80e2f96aa1db4782f199f52)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc395%2FBrian5561%2F81712001.jpg&hash=3b60fd02dc54b547c80e2f96aa1db4782f199f52)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 17, 2012, 02:49:20 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 17, 2012, 02:49:20 PM
the vertical positioning is wrong on at least one of those blades.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Central Avenue on August 17, 2012, 03:48:37 PM
Post by: Central Avenue on August 17, 2012, 03:48:37 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 17, 2012, 02:49:20 PM
the vertical positioning is wrong on at least one of those blades.
I've noticed that a lot on mixed-case signs...the designers shove the lettering upwards as a shortcut to make room for the descenders, rather than just making the sign a bit taller and centering the lettering properly.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Roadsguy on August 17, 2012, 04:27:40 PM
Post by: Roadsguy on August 17, 2012, 04:27:40 PM
Quote from: Central Avenue on August 17, 2012, 03:48:37 PMQuote from: agentsteel53 on August 17, 2012, 02:49:20 PM
the vertical positioning is wrong on at least one of those blades.
I've noticed that a lot on mixed-case signs...the designers shove the lettering upwards as a shortcut to make room for the descenders, rather than just making the sign a bit taller and centering the lettering properly.
Well, there's that, and then there's Bensalem's attempt to fit in a lowercase Y at this (http://goo.gl/GO7ha) intersection of Park Ave. and Valley Meadows Dr. They shoved the lowercase (Clearview :P) Y upwards to fit it in, and it looks horrible. (Street view is outdated and I don't have a picture.)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Alps on August 17, 2012, 07:35:28 PM
Post by: Alps on August 17, 2012, 07:35:28 PM
I've also seen a smaller "g" used such that the tail fits on the sign, but it looks similarly ridiculous. Moral of the story: Fuck Clearview.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Central Avenue on August 17, 2012, 11:38:47 PM
Post by: Central Avenue on August 17, 2012, 11:38:47 PM
But the sign that started this line of discussion wasn't even Clearview...
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 18, 2012, 01:11:43 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on August 18, 2012, 01:11:43 AM
Fuck Clearview on principle then! Do we even need a reason? :P
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on August 22, 2012, 01:36:41 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on August 22, 2012, 01:36:41 PM
Quote from: Central Avenue on August 17, 2012, 03:48:37 PMQuote from: agentsteel53 on August 17, 2012, 02:49:20 PM
the vertical positioning is wrong on at least one of those blades.
I've noticed that a lot on mixed-case signs...the designers shove the lettering upwards as a shortcut to make room for the descenders, rather than just making the sign a bit taller and centering the lettering properly.
Me too. And it does not matter what typeface it is - FHWA, Arial, Clearview or whatever - they are still making the blades too small. If designers are gonna use 6 inch lettering for Street Name signs, then the blanks that they order need to be 10 inches in height for standard blades, and at least that for extruded blades.
And the extruded blades cannot be rounded.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on September 23, 2012, 11:47:23 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on September 23, 2012, 11:47:23 PM
Quote from: Steve on August 17, 2012, 07:35:28 PM
I've also seen a smaller "g" used such that the tail fits on the sign, but it looks similarly ridiculous. Moral of the story: Fuck Clearview.
I saw plenty of Clearview Overhead Street Name signs in the DC metro area - it was atrocious.
Clearview should be restricted only to non-Street Name guide signs, since it requires the uppercase lettering on Street Name signs to be no less than 25 inches in order for the typeface to be effective with its 84% ratio.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on September 25, 2012, 01:31:22 AM
Post by: mjb2002 on September 25, 2012, 01:31:22 AM
I have babbled on and on for nearly four months. Now the first pic of Barnwell County's new signs:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash3%2Fs720x720%2F47239_10151038092230756_1889458120_n.jpg&hash=fe595ae85822eaf3d96c2e9e0032e6cf1d5419e6)
Hopefully, Barnwell Co. Public Works will take advantage of this nice weather to replace all of the all uppercase signs countywide (the uppercase lettering is 3 inches on the all caps signs)!
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash3%2Fs720x720%2F47239_10151038092230756_1889458120_n.jpg&hash=fe595ae85822eaf3d96c2e9e0032e6cf1d5419e6)
Hopefully, Barnwell Co. Public Works will take advantage of this nice weather to replace all of the all uppercase signs countywide (the uppercase lettering is 3 inches on the all caps signs)!
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mgk920 on September 29, 2012, 01:47:50 PM
Post by: mgk920 on September 29, 2012, 01:47:50 PM
Quote from: mjb2002 on September 23, 2012, 11:47:23 PMQuote from: Steve on August 17, 2012, 07:35:28 PM
I've also seen a smaller "g" used such that the tail fits on the sign, but it looks similarly ridiculous. Moral of the story: Fuck Clearview.
I saw plenty of Clearview Overhead Street Name signs in the DC metro area - it was atrocious.
Clearview should be restricted only to non-Street Name guide signs, since it requires the uppercase lettering on Street Name signs to be no less than 25 inches in order for the typeface to be effective with its 84% ratio.
My home City of Appleton, WI started using Clearview on its street name 'blade' signs earlier this year, too....
:no:
:-P
Mike
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: burgess87 on September 30, 2012, 03:41:07 PM
Post by: burgess87 on September 30, 2012, 03:41:07 PM
Saw this as part of a recent re-construction project in Medina, NY:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg685%2F2159%2Fphotoxkk.jpg&hash=39be1e7630848ecfdf68c2a0acb6f0fff4ac24f2)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg685%2F2159%2Fphotoxkk.jpg&hash=39be1e7630848ecfdf68c2a0acb6f0fff4ac24f2)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on October 01, 2012, 04:20:40 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on October 01, 2012, 04:20:40 PM
Quote from: burgess87 on September 30, 2012, 03:41:07 PM
Saw this as part of a recent re-construction project in Medina, NY:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg685%2F2159%2Fphotoxkk.jpg&hash=39be1e7630848ecfdf68c2a0acb6f0fff4ac24f2)
The lettering must be at least 10 inches on those signs...look at how large they are!
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Central Avenue on October 02, 2012, 02:48:23 AM
Post by: Central Avenue on October 02, 2012, 02:48:23 AM
Pataskala, Ohio's started using this style for their new blades:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8181%2F8046187568_2bd7315e53_c.jpg&hash=e127ea5de14fc4607ebf89c8551107667d95e79b)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8319%2F8046166667_1db5962661_c.jpg&hash=b93608252a6da4f3d81a89012e31064831c2dfdd)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8317%2F8046162214_40678d49a6_c.jpg&hash=f4d989855977958b8b4ba76733266542715c938b)
I find them quite well-done, personally, but I can't help but be disappointed at what they're gradually replacing. (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3528.msg177146#msg177146)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8181%2F8046187568_2bd7315e53_c.jpg&hash=e127ea5de14fc4607ebf89c8551107667d95e79b)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8319%2F8046166667_1db5962661_c.jpg&hash=b93608252a6da4f3d81a89012e31064831c2dfdd)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8317%2F8046162214_40678d49a6_c.jpg&hash=f4d989855977958b8b4ba76733266542715c938b)
I find them quite well-done, personally, but I can't help but be disappointed at what they're gradually replacing. (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3528.msg177146#msg177146)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mcdonaat on October 03, 2012, 01:06:46 AM
Post by: mcdonaat on October 03, 2012, 01:06:46 AM
Baton Rouge has been using Clearview for the city streets. It's nice to see since the smaller signs are easier to read at night, in my personal opinion.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Brian556 on October 03, 2012, 09:29:24 AM
Post by: Brian556 on October 03, 2012, 09:29:24 AM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8317%2F8046162214_40678d49a6_c.jpg&hash=f4d989855977958b8b4ba76733266542715c938b)
These signs look lke a throwback to the ones Denton, Texas used in the 70's. Lewisville also used this style in the 70's, only theirs were blue. Denton went to all-caps after that, and just switched to mixed-case clearview in the last year.
These signs look lke a throwback to the ones Denton, Texas used in the 70's. Lewisville also used this style in the 70's, only theirs were blue. Denton went to all-caps after that, and just switched to mixed-case clearview in the last year.
QuoteIt's nice to see since the smaller signs are easier to read at night, in my personal opinionI agree. Having 6-inch high blades on major streets was rediculous and non-functional.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on October 05, 2012, 05:13:55 AM
Post by: mjb2002 on October 05, 2012, 05:13:55 AM
Quote from: mcdonaat on October 03, 2012, 01:06:46 AM
Baton Rouge has been using Clearview for the city streets. It's nice to see since the smaller signs are easier to read at night, in my personal opinion.
All of the all uppercase Street Name signs near me are three inches in height - and they are still non-legible, even with retroreflectivity. The new mixed case signs, which only started going up in the last four months - one of which is seven posts up (or back, if you prefer) - are easier to read at night and when it is cloudy or rainy.
And I agree that it is ridiculous to have 6 inch lettering on all signs without regard to speed limit. Some streets should use smaller signs in the downtown areas (25 mph or lower), while even larger signs should be used for faster highways (50 mph or higher).
But, then again, agencies near me are streamlining and are making one sign letter height for all Street Name signs without regard to speed limits. It puzzles me sometimes.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: vdeane on October 05, 2012, 11:11:36 AM
Post by: vdeane on October 05, 2012, 11:11:36 AM
Other signs don't scale to speed limit changes, why should street blades? Besides, in a downtown setting there's more chances for the sign to be obstructed by something.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on October 05, 2012, 11:23:38 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 05, 2012, 11:23:38 AM
On higher speed roads, maybe 50 MPH and up, you should really be using LGS signs in advance of the intersections. (You know, "Division St./NEXT SIGNAL".) If you have too many intersections to do this, perhaps you should rethink it being posted that high.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 05, 2012, 11:38:25 AM
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 05, 2012, 11:38:25 AM
Quote from: deanej on October 05, 2012, 11:11:36 AM
Other signs don't scale to speed limit changes, why should street blades?
sure they do. freeway route markers are 36" height, while non-freeway are 24".
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: vdeane on October 06, 2012, 10:07:34 AM
Post by: vdeane on October 06, 2012, 10:07:34 AM
I'm pretty sure I've NEVER seen a freeway/non-freeway size difference in route markers before (at least in NY). Is that a west coast thing?
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on October 06, 2012, 12:15:05 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 06, 2012, 12:15:05 PM
Oklahoma does it as well. Hell, it might even be in the MUTCD.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Brian556 on October 06, 2012, 12:25:35 PM
Post by: Brian556 on October 06, 2012, 12:25:35 PM
QuoteOther signs don't scale to speed limit changes, why should street blades?
Yes, they do. Warning and Regulatory signs on freeways are 48x48 or 48x60, for example.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on October 08, 2012, 01:28:57 AM
Post by: mjb2002 on October 08, 2012, 01:28:57 AM
Here are the official letter heights for street name signs.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Y0O-2L52sRs/UHJjXf61biI/AAAAAAAAB8o/jUVIRyZb4Ik/s949/letter%2520heights%2520for%2520street%2520name%2520signs.JPG)
And then there is this for historic neighborhoods with speed limits of 20 mph or lower, just added on June 12:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Y0O-2L52sRs/UHJjXf61biI/AAAAAAAAB8o/jUVIRyZb4Ik/s949/letter%2520heights%2520for%2520street%2520name%2520signs.JPG)
And then there is this for historic neighborhoods with speed limits of 20 mph or lower, just added on June 12:
QuoteOn lower speed roadways, historic street name signs within locally identified historic districts that are consistent with the criteria contained in 36 CFR 60.4 for such structures and districts may be used without complying with the provisions of Paragraphs 3, 4, 6, 9, 12 through 14, and 18 through 20 of this section.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: MDOTFanFB on October 28, 2012, 09:36:28 PM
Post by: MDOTFanFB on October 28, 2012, 09:36:28 PM
Taylor, MI just started doing this for their new street signs:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8046%2F8133063411_f602797fe1.jpg&hash=ff001ce7de5d286237b0358d0126447989f5d93d)
And for comparison, here's the sign it replaced (note, this is an old SD image from 2007, so it may not be readable):
http://goo.gl/maps/swB02 (http://goo.gl/maps/swB02)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8046%2F8133063411_f602797fe1.jpg&hash=ff001ce7de5d286237b0358d0126447989f5d93d)
And for comparison, here's the sign it replaced (note, this is an old SD image from 2007, so it may not be readable):
http://goo.gl/maps/swB02 (http://goo.gl/maps/swB02)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: DaBigE on October 29, 2012, 02:07:44 PM
Post by: DaBigE on October 29, 2012, 02:07:44 PM
Quote from: deanej on October 06, 2012, 10:07:34 AM
I'm pretty sure I've NEVER seen a freeway/non-freeway size difference in route markers before (at least in NY). Is that a west coast thing?
Wisconsin does it as well. Standard route shields are 24x24 whereas multilane roadways with a posted speed of 45 or greater use a 36x36. Construction contractors usually "forget" about this (or ignore it because they don't have the sign in their inventory) when posting detour routes along freeways, and instead post the smaller signs.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 29, 2012, 02:27:16 PM
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 29, 2012, 02:27:16 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 06, 2012, 12:15:05 PM
Oklahoma does it as well. Hell, it might even be in the MUTCD.
it is. it has been in there as long ago as the 1957 interstate manual, which was considered to be an addition to the 1954 revision of the 1948 MUTCD, and then incorporated with some changes formally into the 1961 MUTCD.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: roadfro on October 30, 2012, 05:36:38 AM
Post by: roadfro on October 30, 2012, 05:36:38 AM
^ It's not necessarily a strictly freeway/non-freeway distinction that leads to sign size differences, but rather a speed-related threshold at which larger signs are recommended or required.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: NE2 on October 30, 2012, 06:20:31 AM
Post by: NE2 on October 30, 2012, 06:20:31 AM
It is a freeway-expressway/non-freeway-expressway distinction, though of course larger shields can be used on normal surface roads.
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part2/part2a.htm#section2A11
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part2/part2e.htm#section2E14
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part2/part2a.htm#section2A11
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part2/part2e.htm#section2E14
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on October 30, 2012, 10:10:43 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on October 30, 2012, 10:10:43 PM
Thanks to Google for putting the Augusta, Ga. and Charleston areas in Street View HD, I am able to find more mixed case signs.
In Augusta, I found this. I first saw it on November 19, 2011.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-oUQCcgCjGN0/UJCGWmvS52I/AAAAAAAAB-8/JJMa_nlLG00/s800/augusta-richmond%2520county%2520new%2520sign%2520standard.jpg)
That will be the new standard for Augusta-Richmond County. That will replace these two standards for signs:
The first old standard:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wFpjx55nvgU/TlRb59oU5sI/AAAAAAAAAis/_rsUA6-8v-I/s720/augusta-richmond%2520county%2520sign%25201.jpg)
The second old standard:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-153PfY_7J6k/UJCIRxuMveI/AAAAAAAAB_Y/xib2plqXiNA/s800/old%2520augusta-richmond%2520county%2520sign.jpg)
Now. Here are the new signs for Charleston County:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-VnygDZlbLuM/UJCGW-FwOzI/AAAAAAAAB_E/S6LzOTeMO20/s800/charleston%2520county%2520new%2520signs.jpg)
In Augusta, I found this. I first saw it on November 19, 2011.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-oUQCcgCjGN0/UJCGWmvS52I/AAAAAAAAB-8/JJMa_nlLG00/s800/augusta-richmond%2520county%2520new%2520sign%2520standard.jpg)
That will be the new standard for Augusta-Richmond County. That will replace these two standards for signs:
The first old standard:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wFpjx55nvgU/TlRb59oU5sI/AAAAAAAAAis/_rsUA6-8v-I/s720/augusta-richmond%2520county%2520sign%25201.jpg)
The second old standard:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-153PfY_7J6k/UJCIRxuMveI/AAAAAAAAB_Y/xib2plqXiNA/s800/old%2520augusta-richmond%2520county%2520sign.jpg)
Now. Here are the new signs for Charleston County:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-VnygDZlbLuM/UJCGW-FwOzI/AAAAAAAAB_E/S6LzOTeMO20/s800/charleston%2520county%2520new%2520signs.jpg)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Kacie Jane on October 30, 2012, 10:53:12 PM
Post by: Kacie Jane on October 30, 2012, 10:53:12 PM
Quote from: mjb2002 on October 30, 2012, 10:10:43 PM
The first old standard:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wFpjx55nvgU/TlRb59oU5sI/AAAAAAAAAis/_rsUA6-8v-I/s720/augusta-richmond%2520county%2520sign%25201.jpg)
Looks an awful lot like the NYC classics:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2360%2F2113407093_bb108aae39.jpg&hash=77dd95b31dff48be8f1850b6e49fc053bedb1e96)
And yes, I had to choose the Seaman Cumming picture. Or is it Cumming Seaman?
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: deathtopumpkins on October 30, 2012, 10:53:31 PM
Post by: deathtopumpkins on October 30, 2012, 10:53:31 PM
Quote from: mjb2002 on October 30, 2012, 10:10:43 PM
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wFpjx55nvgU/TlRb59oU5sI/AAAAAAAAAis/_rsUA6-8v-I/s720/augusta-richmond%2520county%2520sign%25201.jpg)
:banghead:
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: roadfro on October 31, 2012, 06:01:53 AM
Post by: roadfro on October 31, 2012, 06:01:53 AM
Quote from: NE2 on October 30, 2012, 06:20:31 AM
It is a freeway-expressway/non-freeway-expressway distinction, though of course larger shields can be used on normal surface roads.
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part2/part2a.htm#section2A11
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part2/part2e.htm#section2E14
Hmm... The freeway-expressway distinction *is* clear for minimum sizes versus minimum sizes for surface roads and other facilities. However, upgrading sizes seems to be preferred on certain conditions, such as higher speed roads.
That's what I get for not checking before posting. I must've been remembering just the second part...I stand corrected.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 31, 2012, 09:42:46 AM
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 31, 2012, 09:42:46 AM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on October 30, 2012, 10:53:31 PMQuote from: mjb2002 on October 30, 2012, 10:10:43 PM
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wFpjx55nvgU/TlRb59oU5sI/AAAAAAAAAis/_rsUA6-8v-I/s720/augusta-richmond%2520county%2520sign%25201.jpg)
:banghead:
is that some sort of subtle anti-smoking ad? if you smoke too much, you die ... and forget how to speak English?
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: deathtopumpkins on October 31, 2012, 09:54:54 AM
Post by: deathtopumpkins on October 31, 2012, 09:54:54 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 31, 2012, 09:42:46 AM
is that some sort of subtle anti-smoking ad? if you smoke too much, you die ... and forget how to speak English?
Well the highway department that put that up sure has.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Alps on November 01, 2012, 11:05:28 PM
Post by: Alps on November 01, 2012, 11:05:28 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on October 31, 2012, 09:54:54 AMOh, "cemetary" is spoken like "cemetery," at least.Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 31, 2012, 09:42:46 AM
is that some sort of subtle anti-smoking ad? if you smoke too much, you die ... and forget how to speak English?
Well the highway department that put that up sure has.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: route56 on November 05, 2012, 07:50:24 PM
Post by: route56 on November 05, 2012, 07:50:24 PM
The town of Pomona, Kansas replaced every street blade in town, not necessarily because of the new MUTCD requirements, but because they renamed every North-South street.
Pomona is divided east and west by what was Main Street (the road continues north and south of Town as Colorado Road in Franklin County). The first street east of Main was "East A," and the first street west of Main was "West A."
The City Council approved the renaming of the lettered streets back in April.
I have a photo of one of the new installations, and will update OSM with the new names.
Pomona is divided east and west by what was Main Street (the road continues north and south of Town as Colorado Road in Franklin County). The first street east of Main was "East A," and the first street west of Main was "West A."
The City Council approved the renaming of the lettered streets back in April.
I have a photo of one of the new installations, and will update OSM with the new names.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: route56 on November 12, 2012, 06:38:00 PM
Post by: route56 on November 12, 2012, 06:38:00 PM
A new Street blade sign in Pomona, Kansas:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.route56.com%2Fgallery%2Fzp-core%2Fi.php%3Fa%3D2012%2FNov12%2F20121104%26amp%3Bi%3D44926.jpg%26amp%3Bs%3D650&hash=5fe760370a92789645b2084488df51bc57964769)
(Madison Street, BTW, is the new name for what was Main Street)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.route56.com%2Fgallery%2Fzp-core%2Fi.php%3Fa%3D2012%2FNov12%2F20121104%26amp%3Bi%3D44926.jpg%26amp%3Bs%3D650&hash=5fe760370a92789645b2084488df51bc57964769)
(Madison Street, BTW, is the new name for what was Main Street)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: CentralCAroadgeek on November 13, 2012, 12:02:02 AM
Post by: CentralCAroadgeek on November 13, 2012, 12:02:02 AM
A picture of the new SF mixed-case street blades mentioned earlier in this thread...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8485%2F8181140163_58ee76acb3_c.jpg&hash=1ff931f833025ce6adb220c560499a1cbccd7415)
(They tend to be more common in the northwest part of the city, such as the Marina and Cow Heights)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8485%2F8181140163_58ee76acb3_c.jpg&hash=1ff931f833025ce6adb220c560499a1cbccd7415)
(They tend to be more common in the northwest part of the city, such as the Marina and Cow Heights)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on November 20, 2012, 09:39:44 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 20, 2012, 09:39:44 AM
I like the design of both of these last two. Although it would be nice if the Pomona sign was one piece instead of the dumb back-to-back setup, which always seems wasteful to me. OKC did it for a long time but ended up ditching it.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on November 20, 2012, 08:56:23 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on November 20, 2012, 08:56:23 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 20, 2012, 09:39:44 AM
I like the design of both of these last two. Although it would be nice if the Pomona sign was one piece instead of the dumb back-to-back setup, which always seems wasteful to me. OKC did it for a long time but ended up ditching it.
As much as I like the one piece, I think it is a bad idea for higher speed highways (particularly those with a speed limit of 50 mph or higher) since those highways would require larger signs. Aiken County has the one piece and I counted five signs including one at Jefferson Davis Highway and Langley Dam Rd that I referred to earlier, that have suffered wind damage. The split can be readily seen on the Langley Dam Rd sign (a white line).
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-brX_fiZF_T4/UKwzaHRSpvI/AAAAAAAACCM/pshJKRkP42w/s800/Jefferson%2520Davis%2520Hwy%2520and%2520Langley%2520Dam%2520Rd.jpg)
The threat of damaging winds is why I prefer the method that Barnwell County is doing for their mixed-case signs - the back-to-back setup. Charleston and Dorchester counties are also doing this, as well as the Orangeburg City Limits.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Android on November 21, 2012, 04:55:58 AM
Post by: Android on November 21, 2012, 04:55:58 AM
That fuzzy photo makes it look like "Langley Darn" to me! :bigass:
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on November 21, 2012, 05:59:44 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 21, 2012, 05:59:44 AM
Honestly, a better solution for 50 MPH+ highways is to use the normal sized streetblades with advance signage on BGSes.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on November 26, 2012, 06:25:24 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on November 26, 2012, 06:25:24 PM
Honestly, that's not a solution in SC, where SCDOT's budget has been cut to the barebones for nearly ten years (SCDOT has control over advanced signage in SC). The back-to-back street blades that are under the COUNTIES' control works better, since the agency is not under the control of the state.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on November 26, 2012, 09:06:40 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 26, 2012, 09:06:40 PM
SC's government needs to stop being idiotic then.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: M3019C LPS20 on March 16, 2013, 01:18:50 AM
Post by: M3019C LPS20 on March 16, 2013, 01:18:50 AM
New York City is currently in the process as well. The new street sign's font is rather awkward in my opinion, and the sign looks kind of unprofessional.
D.O.T. expects to complete this conversion within several years from now.
D.O.T. expects to complete this conversion within several years from now.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: JMoses24 on March 16, 2013, 07:22:55 AM
Post by: JMoses24 on March 16, 2013, 07:22:55 AM
Cincinnati is currently converting to mixed case, as is the city of Florence, Kentucky (new signage only), where I live.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: apeman33 on March 17, 2013, 01:19:24 AM
Post by: apeman33 on March 17, 2013, 01:19:24 AM
I spotted new mixed-case signs in Salina, Kansas, last week. They're coming in slowly. The majority in town are still all-upper case. Some have had a missing blade replaced with a mixed-case one but the all-upper blade on the bottom is still there.
This one is by the Bicentennial Center with both blades replaced (The one for The Midway can't be seen as well because of the angle, and it was a cloudy day so my phone camera had some trouble focusing):
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/63924_10152650684575331_1281432904_n.jpg)
This one is by the Bicentennial Center with both blades replaced (The one for The Midway can't be seen as well because of the angle, and it was a cloudy day so my phone camera had some trouble focusing):
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/63924_10152650684575331_1281432904_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on March 18, 2013, 03:15:02 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on March 18, 2013, 03:15:02 PM
The City of Barnwell, S.C. installed this sign in September 2012, but this is the first time I actually was able to snap a photo of it. This is the only sign that I've accounted for that the city has replaced. The county and city are super slow to replace their signs. About 80% of the signs are still in all uppercase with three inch high letters.
Predictably so, I Instagrammed it.
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/300735_10151305561485756_1161631887_n.jpg)
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/555122_10151305558375756_199874279_n.jpg)
Predictably so, I Instagrammed it.
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/300735_10151305561485756_1161631887_n.jpg)
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/555122_10151305558375756_199874279_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: burgess87 on July 07, 2013, 03:46:53 PM
Post by: burgess87 on July 07, 2013, 03:46:53 PM
Kenmore, NY goes the wrong way with Clearview application:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg11.imageshack.us%2Fimg11%2F9818%2Fo9n7.jpg&hash=997036477c62e1fcc65a8c6d7f2e10c25f84c203)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg11.imageshack.us%2Fimg11%2F9818%2Fo9n7.jpg&hash=997036477c62e1fcc65a8c6d7f2e10c25f84c203)
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: JMoses24 on July 07, 2013, 05:44:51 PM
Post by: JMoses24 on July 07, 2013, 05:44:51 PM
Quote from: burgess87 on July 07, 2013, 03:46:53 PM
Kenmore, NY goes the wrong way with Clearview application:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg11.imageshack.us%2Fimg11%2F9818%2Fo9n7.jpg&hash=997036477c62e1fcc65a8c6d7f2e10c25f84c203)
Kill it! Kill it with fire! Gah! Terrible.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Brandon on July 14, 2013, 05:39:51 PM
Post by: Brandon on July 14, 2013, 05:39:51 PM
New City of Joliet, Illinois standard. It's similar to the old standard, but the font is changed:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_3326_zpsad391bf5.jpg&hash=efbb774399d17acdd7cf339de95f7bae1bb4b249) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/midamcrossrds/media/100_3326_zpsad391bf5.jpg.html)
Black Road is the major street, Donna Avenue is a side street. The tall blade is for better visibility on major streets.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_3326_zpsad391bf5.jpg&hash=efbb774399d17acdd7cf339de95f7bae1bb4b249) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/midamcrossrds/media/100_3326_zpsad391bf5.jpg.html)
Black Road is the major street, Donna Avenue is a side street. The tall blade is for better visibility on major streets.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on August 01, 2013, 02:45:33 AM
Post by: mjb2002 on August 01, 2013, 02:45:33 AM
Quote from: burgess87 on July 07, 2013, 03:46:53 PM
Kenmore, NY goes the wrong way with Clearview application:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg11.imageshack.us%2Fimg11%2F9818%2Fo9n7.jpg&hash=997036477c62e1fcc65a8c6d7f2e10c25f84c203)
Exhibit A as to why Clearview should be restricted solely to Distance and Destination signs.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: abc2VE on August 21, 2013, 08:28:23 PM
Post by: abc2VE on August 21, 2013, 08:28:23 PM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/1073946_403649806403609_1797331011_o.jpg)
Not sure if this sign exceeds the new size requirements or not but, when I first saw it this morning I thought size.
Not sure if this sign exceeds the new size requirements or not but, when I first saw it this morning I thought size.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 23, 2013, 01:44:24 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on August 23, 2013, 01:44:24 AM
The WyCo Unified Government's new approach in Kansas City, KS, which is very tastefully done in my opinion.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fc%2Fce%2FKansas_City_KS_blade_sign.jpg%2F800px-Kansas_City_KS_blade_sign.jpg&hash=4a0e4ea13ed1c23e78d55a4234d52874da7b6e65)
Mastarm signage is exactly the same as before, but switched to mixed case. Looks sharp.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fc%2Fce%2FKansas_City_KS_blade_sign.jpg%2F800px-Kansas_City_KS_blade_sign.jpg&hash=4a0e4ea13ed1c23e78d55a4234d52874da7b6e65)
Mastarm signage is exactly the same as before, but switched to mixed case. Looks sharp.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Central Avenue on August 23, 2013, 04:01:50 PM
Post by: Central Avenue on August 23, 2013, 04:01:50 PM
I quite like that. Looks like they even did a decent job leaving room for the descenders on letters like y, which seems to be something a lot of places get wrong.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on October 25, 2013, 02:41:33 PM
Post by: mjb2002 on October 25, 2013, 02:41:33 PM
Quote from: Central Avenue on August 23, 2013, 04:01:50 PM
I quite like that. Looks like they even did a decent job leaving room for the descenders on letters like y, which seems to be something a lot of places get wrong.
Kansas City, Kan. didn't leave much room, though. Practically speaking, the sign blank should be twice the height of the initial uppercase letters if the uppercase letters are less than 10 inches in height. If the uppercase letters are 10 or more inches in height, the sign blank should be a minimum of 18 inches in height.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: Brian556 on October 26, 2013, 12:51:16 AM
Post by: Brian556 on October 26, 2013, 12:51:16 AM
Around here, signs that have decenders have the word higher on the blade to make room for it, which looks bad. I prefer the word be vertically centered on the blade.
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on April 30, 2014, 02:26:11 AM
Post by: mjb2002 on April 30, 2014, 02:26:11 AM
Quote from: Brian556 on October 26, 2013, 12:51:16 AM
Around here, signs that have decenders have the word higher on the blade to make room for it, which looks bad. I prefer the word be vertically centered on the blade.
I noticed that some of the new Aiken County street name signs do the same. That is why I prefer it that the street name sign blanks are the recommended heights – which is twice the height of the initial uppercase letter on the signs – rather than the minimum heights (6 inches for 4 inch initial UC signs, 9 inches for 6 inch initial UC signs).
Title: Re: Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?
Post by: mjb2002 on May 17, 2014, 09:05:07 AM
Post by: mjb2002 on May 17, 2014, 09:05:07 AM
This here, is what Brian556 and I were referring to.
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.513473,-81.71805,3a,75y,90h,90.31t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sVTbxYjjjwF3gIy8VKLSLgA!2e0 (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.513473,-81.71805,3a,75y,90h,90.31t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sVTbxYjjjwF3gIy8VKLSLgA!2e0)
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.513473,-81.71805,3a,75y,90h,90.31t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sVTbxYjjjwF3gIy8VKLSLgA!2e0 (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.513473,-81.71805,3a,75y,90h,90.31t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sVTbxYjjjwF3gIy8VKLSLgA!2e0)