Street Blade Signs Changing (All Uppercase > Mixed Case)?

[thenetwork]

I love the street signs in NYC, the Clearview ones sucks. I'm not a big fan of Clearview unless its on BGS's and even then I'm not the biggest fan.  Perhaps the city will sell off all of the signs they have to replace, but that's a glass half full approach to all of this.  


I got a response from the city that goes along the lines of this:

The total cost for replacing all 250,000 street name signs to comply with federal MUTCD standards is anticipated to be $27.5 million ($110 per sign).

I assume that the $110 includes all parts & labor since at the website below:

Details can be found at http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/signs/cmsigns.shtml

You can get a street blade for about $40 + shipping. That might be worth looking at.  

And if you look under the ROAD SIGNS link, they'll try to sell you a replica US Route 66 sign for $68.00.

A US Route 66 sign from NYC?!?!???  Blasphemous!!!  
And a "Classic Interstate Shield" is NOT neutered!!! 

[nyratk1]

They also have an option for other numbers so you can do US 1 or US 9 - the only US routes in NYC

[agentsteel53]

don't forget US-7, which ran there until 1928, I believe.  Also, US-9E, which was the original number for US-9, until the early 30s if I recall correctly.

New York US 7 would be one of the toughest route markers to find.  I've never seen one.  Or a 9E.  Or a 2 for that matter.

[Scott5114]

Black on white is still allowed in the 2009 MUTCD

Ah, so it is. That's kind of odd. I would have thought they would have disallowed it for the same reasons they disallowed using yellow, red, orange, et al.

[myosh_tino]

Black on white is still allowed in the 2009 MUTCD

Ah, so it is. That's kind of odd. I would have thought they would have disallowed it for the same reasons they disallowed using yellow, red, orange, et al.

If yellow is not allowed, how do you explain the example street blade/street sign KEK drew in an earlier post...

I believe he says this is the standard for Clark County in Washington.  Could you clarify KEK?

[SidS1045]

FHWA can't really mandate anything that's not in the MUTCD. The only font that is mentioned or shown anywhere in the 2009 MUTCD is the standard FHWA Series font. Reissuing the supplemental material won't do anything until there is something in the MUTCD requiring use of Clearview.

Lawyer:  They can't put you in jail for that!
Client:  Then why am I in jail?

Let's not forget who we're dealing with here.  Federal agencies do what they want.   The fact that they occasionally do the right thing is nice, but not a requirement (in their eyes).

[MichiganDriver]

Black on white is still allowed in the 2009 MUTCD

Ah, so it is. That's kind of odd. I would have thought they would have disallowed it for the same reasons they disallowed using yellow, red, orange, et al.

If yellow is not allowed, how do you explain the example street blade/street sign KEK drew in an earlier post...
I believe he says this is the standard for Clark County in Washington.  Could you clarify KEK?

Streets signs could be any color before the 2009 MUTCD

[mgk920]

The local news the other night had a piece on Rochester's changeover...and officials don't exactly seem happy about it (not to mention people never really noticed until somebody said something about it).

Why are we wasting money on this? I agree that there need to be some standards, but street blade signage should be left alone...they can provide some character to otherwise boring streets (especially in the North Country region of NY, where many towns still have many old embossed signs still in the field)

Interesting, though, is that Rochester's new signs still have the "RD" in all caps...which looks better than "Rd". The signs are still way too large, though.

IMHO, the problem was not necessarily the larger cities, which have been overall pretty good in their signing practices, it is suburban and more rural places, especially some of the more 'hoity-toity' suburbs, that use such fancy or oddball sign designs that they are pretty much impossible to find and/or read.  I know of one Chicagoland suburb that uses fancy concrete obelisks with vertical lettering to identify their streets.  There has also been a persistent problem in some locales with developers *INSISTING* on using their own fancy signs that may differ substantially from those normally used by the muni that their developments are in.

As for San Francisco, CA, I'm thinking that the problem with their 'black on whites' is their size.  To comply, they will have to be much larger and mixed-case.

Mike

[agentsteel53]

I've never seen issue with San Francisco's white/black style.  They are certainly of comparable size to others used around the country.

yuppie neighborhoods have their own reasons for perplexing signage, but that is insufficient cause to order lots of small towns to replace their perfectly functional embossed 1930s signage.  Stop signs and other high-priority items - sure, replace them... but route markers, street blades, those sorts of things do not need to be kept on the bleeding edge.

[mightyace]

I know of one Chicagoland suburb that uses fancy concrete obelisks with vertical lettering to identify their streets.

Cuyahoga Falls, OH used to use these for their street signs.  The obelisks were painted yellow with black letters.

IMHO I found them easier to read than traditional street signs as the text was larger and they were also easier to read as you did not have to take you eyes as much off the road.

[MichiganDriver]

I've never seen issue with San Francisco's white/black style.  They are certainly of comparable size to others used around the country.

yuppie neighborhoods have their own reasons for perplexing signage, but that is insufficient cause to order lots of small towns to replace their perfectly functional embossed 1930s signage.  Stop signs and other high-priority items - sure, replace them... but route markers, street blades, those sorts of things do not need to be kept on the bleeding edge.

You'll say that until you're looking for a street at night in an unfamiliar place and that 1930's signage won't seem so quaint or functional.

[agentsteel53]

You'll say that until you're looking for a street at night in an unfamiliar place and that 1930's signage won't seem so quaint or functional.

eh, I can find my way just fine.  Usually a cursory look on Google Maps before I leave, combined with a GPS while on the road, is sufficient.  If not, I'll either call someone for directions, or ask a local.

it's not exactly a crisis.

[KEK Inc.]

Black on white is still allowed in the 2009 MUTCD

Ah, so it is. That's kind of odd. I would have thought they would have disallowed it for the same reasons they disallowed using yellow, red, orange, et al.

If yellow is not allowed, how do you explain the example street blade/street sign KEK drew in an earlier post...
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb153/KEK_INC/Road%20signs/ClarkCtylighting.png
I believe he says this is the standard for Clark County in Washington.  Could you clarify KEK?

Counties and cities have separate jurisdictions.  This is true in Santa Clara County as well.    

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Hazel+Dell,+WA&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Hazel+Dell,+Hazel+Dell+South,+Clark,+Washington&gl=us&ei=PBeuTLPkF5SosQOM3bSNDA&ved=0CBcQ8gEwAA&ll=45.692508,-122.657016&spn=0.002522,0.005284&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=45.693004,-122.656644&panoid=H6Ql159XBBH8PWfESr1Vww&cbp=12,41.47,,0,-8.52

Anyways, I believe Clark County uses yellow, simply because it looks better on warning approach signs.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Hazel+Dell,+WA&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Hazel+Dell,+Hazel+Dell+South,+Clark,+Washington&gl=us&ei=PBeuTLPkF5SosQOM3bSNDA&ved=0CBcQ8gEwAA&ll=45.763092,-122.661581&spn=0.014371,0.042272&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=45.763196,-122.661568&panoid=WTjZfq42_N0qma7CbNSHXg&cbp=12,22.78,,1,0.84

[agentsteel53]

in all honesty, if you want your municipality's street blades to be more visible, call up the landscaping department.

Until you invent a font so clearly legible that it can be discerned through solid objects, stop hiding street blades behind trees.

[mightyace]

Until you invent a font so clearly legible that it can be discerned through solid objects, stop hiding street blades behind trees.

That's another reason I like Cuyahoga Falls' obelisks.  They were less obstructions down low to block them.

[The Premier]

Cuyahoga Falls wasn't the only area that had them. Brimfield Township had them until recently.

[deathtopumpkins]

Elizabeth City (I think), NC has obelisks too. I know i saw them in some northeastern NC town.

[SidS1045]

I've never seen issue with San Francisco's white/black style.  They are certainly of comparable size to others used around the country.

yuppie neighborhoods have their own reasons for perplexing signage, but that is insufficient cause to order lots of small towns to replace their perfectly functional embossed 1930s signage.  Stop signs and other high-priority items - sure, replace them... but route markers, street blades, those sorts of things do not need to be kept on the bleeding edge.

You'll say that until you're looking for a street at night in an unfamiliar place and that 1930's signage won't seem so quaint or functional.

Newton, Massachusetts is the perfect example.  Their signs are black-on-gray, and even under the best street lighting they're all but invisible at night.  They're probably expensive to replace as is...made of some kind of metal with raised lettering in a Roman-like font...but horrible to have to read, especially at night.

[thenetwork]

Cuyahoga Falls wasn't the only area that had them. Brimfield Township had them until recently.

Brun-tucky....er I mean Brunswick, OH has been using white vertical lettering on brown wooden obelisks (100% non-reflective) for decades.  Never liked them because they were damn near impossible to see, however the black-on-yellows in the Falls were easier to spot.

[Scott5114]

FHWA can't really mandate anything that's not in the MUTCD. The only font that is mentioned or shown anywhere in the 2009 MUTCD is the standard FHWA Series font. Reissuing the supplemental material won't do anything until there is something in the MUTCD requiring use of Clearview.

Lawyer:  They can't put you in jail for that!
Client:  Then why am I in jail?

Let's not forget who we're dealing with here.  Federal agencies do what they want.   The fact that they occasionally do the right thing is nice, but not a requirement (in their eyes).

I fail to see how this is accurate or relevant at all.

[Brian556]

Interesting...
in the 90's, The City of Lewisville, TX  had 9 inch high Upper/Lower Case blades with  high-intensity sheeting. They were green/white. Around 2000, they replaced them with Green/white 9-inch high, Engineer-grade sheeting, all upper case lettered signs. Seems a little back-asswards to me.

[roadfro]

Black on white is still allowed in the 2009 MUTCD

Ah, so it is. That's kind of odd. I would have thought they would have disallowed it for the same reasons they disallowed using yellow, red, orange, et al.

I believe 'black on white' street blades were added back in after FHWA received many comments requesting that particular color combination not be removed.

Of course, any new black on white street name signs installed today would have to have the larger letter size implemented in the 2003 MUTCD and have mixed-cased lettering mandated by the 2009 MUTCD. So those old, charming black on white blades wouldn't be allowed...which kinda defeats the purpose of keeping the black on white anyway.

[hbelkins]

When the feds get to the point that they dictate coloration and lettering sizes/fonts on city street signs, then that's proof positive that the federal government is too big and too powerful and the MUTCD is too anal.

[realjd]

IMHO, the problem was not necessarily the larger cities, which have been overall pretty good in their signing practices, it is suburban and more rural places, especially some of the more 'hoity-toity' suburbs, that use such fancy or oddball sign designs that they are pretty much impossible to find and/or read.  I know of one Chicagoland suburb that uses fancy concrete obelisks with vertical lettering to identify their streets.  There has also been a persistent problem in some locales with developers *INSISTING* on using their own fancy signs that may differ substantially from those normally used by the muni that their developments are in.

My parents' neighborhood in Indiana had fancy carved wood street signs. The city recently went through and bolted standard green blades directly over the carved wood street names. They told everyone that it was so emergency services could actually read the street names at night.

[brownpelican]

I'm pretty sure street signing is the city's and county's jurisidiction.  Some cities don't even use the two typefaces (FHWA/Clearview), and obviously colors vary.  

I believe you are correct. In the last few years, Baton Rouge/East Baton Rouge Parish recently switched from black letters-on-white-all caps to white letters-on-light-blue-mixed caps (can't remember the Highway Gothic series font...looks like Series C to me, though their illuminated street signs are both Clearview and Series E).

Then you have this: new signs in the Old Metairie section of Metairie, La.



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