Signage can convey important information about the conditions of a road.
Inland border checkpoints serve no legitimate purpose.
Driving at highway speed is safer than it would be without any lane lines.
Control Cities are generally useless except for locations of significant importance and for significant distances.
The only acceptable use of a full-length gantry for one sign is if it's an APL, diagrammatical or VMS.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 24, 2025, 09:51:21 PMControl Cities are generally useless except for locations of significant importance and for significant distances.
I'd say that's more of a hot take than a cold take. Especially if I'm not entirely sure what direction my destination is in, I like having more than just a route shield assembly to guide me the right way.
Asphalt is better than concrete for pavement in NY, except when it isn't.
Quote from: Rothman on June 24, 2025, 10:46:04 PMAsphalt is better than concrete for pavement in NY, except when it isn't.
Asphalt
is concrete.
[/pedant]
Quote from: kphoger on June 24, 2025, 10:30:21 PMQuote from: jeffandnicole on June 24, 2025, 09:51:21 PMControl Cities are generally useless except for locations of significant importance and for significant distances.
I'd say that's more of a hot take than a cold take. Especially if I'm not entirely sure what direction my destination is in, I like having more than just a route shield assembly to guide me the right way.
As I said, importance counts. New York and Chicago are good. Small Town PA and Small Town IL are not.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 25, 2025, 08:52:23 AMAs I said, importance counts. New York and Chicago are good. Small Town PA and Small Town IL are not.
But that's not my experience.
If I'm unfamiliar with the area, and kind of turned around from driving in the hills, and I'm trying to get to Small Town PA because everyone keeps recommending I try Reggie's Pizza Shack, then a sign assembly for...
[WEST PA-422 →] [Small Town PA →]
... is a lot more useful than a sign for just...
[WEST PA-422 →]
Any sign placed on the highway right-of-way without authority, by a private organization or individual, constitutes a public nuisance.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 25, 2025, 11:57:17 AMAny sign placed on the highway right-of-way without authority, by a private organization or individual, constitutes a public nuisance.
Even a tiny historic US 20 sign? :D
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 25, 2025, 11:57:17 AMAny sign placed on the highway right-of-way without authority, by a private organization or individual, constitutes a public nuisance.
Quote from: NE2 on June 25, 2025, 01:28:50 PMEven a tiny historic US 20 sign? :D
I wonder how many 'Historic US 66' shields were placed on the highway right-of-way without authority by a private organization.
I figured the most stone-cold take a roadgeek could have would be a copy-paste from the 1961 MUTCD, but apparently I was wrong. :D
A traffic signal is better than a roundabout or a 4-way stop.
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on June 25, 2025, 07:32:18 PMA traffic signal is better than a roundabout or a 4-way stop.
No it's not.
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on June 25, 2025, 07:32:18 PMA traffic signal is better than a roundabout or a 4-way stop.
Quote from: NE2 on June 25, 2025, 07:55:18 PMNo it's not.
Correct.
(And all four-way stops should be burned with fire. Any intersection design that requires every single vehicle to come to a complete stop, every single time, no matter what, is a failure.)
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 25, 2025, 06:36:26 PMI figured the most stone-cold take a roadgeek could have would be a copy-paste from the 1961 MUTCD, but apparently I was wrong. :D
Technically, no one has disagreed with it.
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on June 25, 2025, 07:32:18 PMA traffic signal is better than a roundabout or a 4-way stop.
Ehh... it depends. Roundabouts have a place and can be more advantageous than a traditional intersection in a certain number of applications. Particularly in slower speed, lighter traffic areas, or intersections with bad geometry paired with low enough traffic volumes that a roundabout could fix a serious safety issue without compromising traffic flow.
Quote from: kphoger on June 25, 2025, 07:58:48 PMAnd all four-way stops should be burned with fire. Any intersection design that requires every single vehicle to come to a complete stop, every single time, no matter what, is a failure.
I can forgive them for that when it's a state highway intersection in the middle of nowhere where you're basically just making everyone stop to reduce the chances of someone getting T-boned at 65 mph. But once they start getting enough traffic that safe operation depends on everyone remembering and complying with the order they're supposed to go in, they become a horror show.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 25, 2025, 08:31:03 PMQuote from: kphoger on June 25, 2025, 07:58:48 PMAnd all four-way stops should be burned with fire. Any intersection design that requires every single vehicle to come to a complete stop, every single time, no matter what, is a failure.
I can forgive them for that when it's a state highway intersection in the middle of nowhere where you're basically just making everyone stop to reduce the chances of someone getting T-boned at 65 mph. But once they start getting enough traffic that safe operation depends on everyone remembering and complying with the order they're supposed to go in, they become a horror show.
The four lane expressway segments of Golden State Boulevard and Academy Avenue in Fresno County that have four way stop signs are something I probably should have documented on this forum already.
Quote from: kphoger on June 25, 2025, 07:58:48 PM(And all four-way stops should be burned with fire. Any intersection design that requires every single vehicle to come to a complete stop, every single time, no matter what, is a failure.)
If humans were perfect drivers this would be true.
Quote from: kphoger on June 25, 2025, 07:58:48 PMAnd all four-way stops should be burned with fire. Any intersection design that requires every single vehicle to come to a complete stop, every single time, no matter what, is a failure.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 25, 2025, 08:31:03 PMI can forgive them for that when it's a state highway intersection in the middle of nowhere where you're basically just making everyone stop to reduce the chances of someone getting T-boned at 65 mph.
Roundabouts have entered the conversation.
Tell me how a four-way stop accomplishes that better than a roundabout.
The only benefit I could see if I squint real hard is that if, somehow, you completely miss all of the pagentry leading up to such an intersection (and in Oklahoma there is normally quite a lot, including usually multiple signs, rumble strips, and flashing red lights), and happen to be there when nobody else is, you could theoretically blow right through without running into something like a roundabout's central reservation.
But assuming you keep all the signs and rumble strips so everyone SHOULD be aware they are coming up to a roundabout...you're correct, they do that job better.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 25, 2025, 08:31:03 PMyou're basically just making everyone stop
Quote from: kphoger on June 26, 2025, 09:15:27 AMTell me how a four-way stop accomplishes that better than a roundabout.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 26, 2025, 02:13:57 PMyou could theoretically blow right through
So . . . it doesn't.
Well, what I was getting at is that it depends on if you consider "someone not paying attention could crash into the center of the roundabout" a bug, as some people in the "crash-prone roundabouts" thread do, or if you consider it a feature that filters out people that shouldn't be allowed to continue because they are clearly impaired in some way. If you consider it a bug, then you could argue that a four-way stop is superior for that one reason. If you think it's a feature, then a roundabout is clearly superior in every way.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 26, 2025, 03:14:57 PMWell, what I was getting at is that it depends on if you consider "someone not paying attention could crash into the center of the roundabout" a bug, as some people in the "crash-prone roundabouts" thread do, or if you consider it a feature that filters out people that shouldn't be allowed to continue because they are clearly impaired in some way. If you consider it a bug, then you could argue that a four-way stop is superior for that one reason. If you think it's a feature, then a roundabout is clearly superior in every way.
Oh, I totally understand. My point was only that four-way stops don't actually force everyone to stop any more than roundabouts do.
I suppose the 'reduce the chances' part is true, as the odds of
both drivers running a four-way stop at 65 mph are extremely slim.
Quote from: kphoger on June 26, 2025, 09:15:27 AMQuote from: kphoger on June 25, 2025, 07:58:48 PMAnd all four-way stops should be burned with fire. Any intersection design that requires every single vehicle to come to a complete stop, every single time, no matter what, is a failure.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 25, 2025, 08:31:03 PMI can forgive them for that when it's a state highway intersection in the middle of nowhere where you're basically just making everyone stop to reduce the chances of someone getting T-boned at 65 mph.
Roundabouts have entered the conversation.
Tell me how a four-way stop accomplishes that better than a roundabout.
It doesn't. It's a lot cheaper.
Quote from: thspfc on June 26, 2025, 08:35:58 PMQuote from: kphoger on June 26, 2025, 09:15:27 AMRoundabouts have entered the conversation.
Tell me how a four-way stop accomplishes that better than a roundabout.
It doesn't. It's a lot cheaper.
There's a four-way stop in my neighborhood. It fits in well with my county's excessive enthusiasm for traffic calming. But there's no room for a roundabout at that intersection, except by tearing down at least eight adjacent housing units.
I could see a four way stop being the only reasonable option in a location with very limited visibility.
Quote from: oscar on June 26, 2025, 08:59:51 PMBut there's no room for a roundabout at that intersection, except by tearing down at least eight adjacent housing units.
Mini roundabouts have entered the chat.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/mwpFaLdfqgNgBK8V9
Quote from: kphoger on June 26, 2025, 10:43:36 PMQuote from: oscar on June 26, 2025, 08:59:51 PMBut there's no room for a roundabout at that intersection, except by tearing down at least eight adjacent housing units.
Mini roundabouts have entered the chat.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/mwpFaLdfqgNgBK8V9
Norman has a few of them (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Norman,+OK/@35.2005419,-97.4116964,3a,59y,339.74h,81.89t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1soGyQ0o47_mkMeNAwXXxPrQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D8.109829049862952%26panoid%3DoGyQ0o47_mkMeNAwXXxPrQ%26yaw%3D339.73959233944674!7i16384!8i8192!4m6!3m5!1s0x87b263b67f93eee7:0x445b233faba85cf8!8m2!3d35.2215893!4d-97.4446151!16zL20vMHo0XzA?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYyMy4yIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D).
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 27, 2025, 12:03:53 AMQuote from: kphoger on June 26, 2025, 10:43:36 PMQuote from: oscar on June 26, 2025, 08:59:51 PMBut there's no room for a roundabout at that intersection, except by tearing down at least eight adjacent housing units.
Mini roundabouts have entered the chat.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/mwpFaLdfqgNgBK8V9
Norman has a few of them (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Norman,+OK/@35.2005419,-97.4116964,3a,59y,339.74h,81.89t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1soGyQ0o47_mkMeNAwXXxPrQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D8.109829049862952%26panoid%3DoGyQ0o47_mkMeNAwXXxPrQ%26yaw%3D339.73959233944674!7i16384!8i8192!4m6!3m5!1s0x87b263b67f93eee7:0x445b233faba85cf8!8m2!3d35.2215893!4d-97.4446151!16zL20vMHo0XzA?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYyMy4yIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D).
Eh... the side streets have stop signs and the straight through road doesn't have any traffic control. Even though it's designed like a roundabout and may slow traffic, it should have yield controls for all 4 approaches.
Roundabouts and stop signs don't go together.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 27, 2025, 12:03:53 AMNorman has a few of them (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Norman,+OK/@35.2005419,-97.4116964,3a,59y,339.74h,81.89t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1soGyQ0o47_mkMeNAwXXxPrQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D8.109829049862952%26panoid%3DoGyQ0o47_mkMeNAwXXxPrQ%26yaw%3D339.73959233944674!7i16384!8i8192!4m6!3m5!1s0x87b263b67f93eee7:0x445b233faba85cf8!8m2!3d35.2215893!4d-97.4446151!16zL20vMHo0XzA?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYyMy4yIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D).
Even if that were a proper mini roundabout, I specifically avoided linking to an example with a hard center island, because I have an irrational hatred for them. Not quite sure what it is about them...
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2025, 09:10:31 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on June 27, 2025, 12:03:53 AMNorman has a few of them (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Norman,+OK/@35.2005419,-97.4116964,3a,59y,339.74h,81.89t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1soGyQ0o47_mkMeNAwXXxPrQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D8.109829049862952%26panoid%3DoGyQ0o47_mkMeNAwXXxPrQ%26yaw%3D339.73959233944674!7i16384!8i8192!4m6!3m5!1s0x87b263b67f93eee7:0x445b233faba85cf8!8m2!3d35.2215893!4d-97.4446151!16zL20vMHo0XzA?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYyMy4yIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D).
Even if that were a proper mini roundabout, I specifically avoided linking to an example with a hard center island, because I have an irrational hatred for them. Not quite sure what it is about them...
It's all right. I have an irrational hatred for Oakhurst (mostly because I always seemed to get caught at the light on Lindsey back when I lived in Eastridge).