What are some of the oddities of your state route system? For example, things like state routes that don't end at other routes (not counting borders), or have multiple separate sections.
In PA:
1. There are two separate PA 29s, PA 97s, and PA 272s
(PA 29 used to be one route where the middle became US, then PA 309)
(PA 97 in South Central PA used to be US 140, when that was decomissioned, MD replaced that with MD 97 and PA matched the numbering)
(PA 272 looks like a secret multiplex with US 222 through Lancaster City but last time I was there, PA 272 wasn't signed)
There are a few state routes that do not end at another route:
PA 660 W terminus in N Central PA (ends at east rim of PA Grand Canyon)
PA 56 W terminus ends at Allegheny River Br
PA 114 S terminus ends at Old York Rd in New Cumberland
PA 441 N terminus ends at Paxton St in Harrisburg
PA 324 S terminus ends at Susquehanna River
PA 533 W terminus in Cumberland County
There are a few cases where two state routes end at each other (and neither route continues):
PA 49 E terminus and PA 287 N terminus in N Central PA
PA 181 N terminus and PA 382 E terminus in York County
PA 441 S terminus and PA 999 W terminus in western Lancaster County
And finally...US 209's western terminus is PA 147 in Millersburg...maps may show that US 209 crosses the Susquehanna River and then ends at US 11/15, but the approaches to the ferry on either side are not marked.
CT's SSR 403 is one-way, yet has a double-decked section. (This becomes much less mysterious when I add that the lower level is for arrivals, upper for departures :-))
California has plenty of examples of this. CA-84 is in several segments, making it next to useless for navigational purposes between the Dumbarton Bridge and Sacramento (then again, if you're taking that, instead of 680 to 80, to Sacramento, you're clearly looking for adventure).
CA-173 is the only dirt road segment in the system, and it is appallingly bad, even by dirt-road standards.
M 185 is the only motorless highway in the usa also M-147 is know as "it's ... the second shortest highway on Michigan's state highway system, but for those who travel it one way, M-147 is the longest road in the world" as it terminates in the Jackson State correctional facility
M-185 does not allow cars. Also, it and M-154 are the only two state highways in Michigan that are completely on islands.
Florida's weirdos:
SR 9336 - Not sure how or why they came up with that number, it dead-ends at Everglades National Park (a good reason, at least).
SR 17 (and CR 17) - exists in about 10 pieces, and alternates.
Some of them are less than a mile in length: SR 844, 849, 970 for example.
There's also the unsigned diagonal routes like 500, 600, and 700 that are tricky to complete.
Also plenty of "look-it's-a-county-road, now it's a state-road, no wait...it's a county road again" examples: SR 15, 884, et cetera.
Lots of maps show county roads as state roads, just collect 'em all!
CA-65 and CA-271 have two completely different segments that are not connected. Not sure if plans exist to actually connect them or not.
While others, such as CA-168, CA-178 and CA-190 (among a few others) have non-continous segments with implied connections through either the Sierra or Death Valley, and thus are virtually impossible to truly unite.
Then there are some routes like CA-14 which are north-south, despite even-numbered routes generally running east-west.
And lastly, there are multiple segments of CA-1 that are concurrent with US-101 but not signed, making it hard to navigate at times.
PA 283 is internally known as PA 300 and PA 380 is internally known as PA 400 because of the interstates in the state with the same number.
Quote from: Quillz on August 04, 2011, 10:14:56 PM
CA-65 and CA-271 have two completely different segments that are not connected. Not sure if plans exist to actually connect them or not.
The 65 gap has been on the long-term plan for decades, 271 on the other hand was assigned to two separate sections of former US 101 with an implied concurrency with existing 101 (but no signs).
Quote from: Quillz
While others, such as CA-168, CA-178 and CA-190 (among a few others) have non-continous segments with implied connections through either the Sierra or Death Valley, and thus are virtually impossible to truly unite.
The trans-Sierra crossings were planned at one point though. I'm surprised those roads didn't get redesignated once it became clear they weren't going to happen.
Nevada:
* A few urban state routes that are in discontinuous sections.
* A few extremely short urban state routes (i.e. less than half a mile)
* At least two state highways that do not connect to the rest of the state system: SR 705 and SR 513 (caused by the recent decommissioning of part of SR 529/Carson Street in Carson City).
* Unless it's already a state-maintained route, the portion of practically any road between the ramps at any freeway interchange is classified as a frontage road with its own frontage road number, despite not actually being a frontage road.
Quote from: Quillz on August 04, 2011, 10:14:56 PM
Then there are some routes like CA-14 which are north-south, despite even-numbered routes generally running east-west.
Along those lines, CA-82/El Camino Real is north-south even though it's a even numbered route and CA-237 is east-west.
Quote from: myosh_tino on August 05, 2011, 03:15:54 AM
Quote from: Quillz on August 04, 2011, 10:14:56 PM
Then there are some routes like CA-14 which are north-south, despite even-numbered routes generally running east-west.
Along those lines, CA-82/El Camino Real is north-south even though it's a even numbered route and CA-237 is east-west.
The ex-Route 9 state highways (236, 237, 238 formed in 1963-1964, 262 in 1965 due to the 680 rerouting) ALL seem to have odd numberings relative to the actual route direction!
Also in that vein is Route 70, which is north-south for its first third in length along former Route 24 and US 99E/Alt US 40.
Indiana:
IN 1 has two segments
IN 4 has three segments
IN 47 is mostly east-west but has an odd number and is signed as north-south
IN 75 has two segments
IN 101 has four segments
IN 114 has three segments
IN 121 has two segments
IN 520 is 0.3 miles long
IN 912 has two segments
Part of MN-23 goes through Wisconsin.
There are two separate, completely unrelated MN-62s.
There are two K-8's, both very short, separated in the extreme northern and southern parts of Kansas because the part in between became U.S. 281. The southern K-8 was renumbered for a while but eventually was changed back to K-8.
There are also two K-171's but they were never connected. The southeastern K-171 was changed when K-57 was truncated with the new number matching the Missouri segment, 171 (which at one time was itself MO 57). There wasn't really a reason the change the K-171 in Smith County. It's just a short spur serving a small town.
K-150 was also in two parts until the portion in Johnson County became entirely within city limits and was turned back over to the cities it ran through.
And, like several others here, I've driven on the road that is both OK-20 and AR-43.
Quote from: Coelacanth on August 05, 2011, 01:36:45 PM
Part of MN-23 goes through Wisconsin.
There are two separate, completely unrelated MN-62s.
And the WI part of MN 23 uses a Minnesota shield in WI.
Coming off the Walt Whitman Bridge from PA to NJ, the first exit uses PA's exit numbering scheme, making it Exit 354. This is by far the highest exit number in NJ, considering that the longest highway in the state is only 172 miles.
Part of Texas 87 was wiped out in the hurricane and has not been fixed. That was the 1980 hurricane. So the eastern part and western parts dont connect, yet if youre heading eastbound on the western segment, it turns north and changes numbers.
El Paso has the short segments of US-62 (meaningless duplex with US-180 for hundreds of miles) and US-85 (unsigned thru CO & NM)
Speaking of natural disasters, mudslides are the reason CA 39 and CA 144 do not connect to CA 2 and CA 192, respectively. The former is supposed to be reconnected soon, not sure if the 144 will ever be fixed.
Quote from: texaskdog on August 05, 2011, 03:41:32 PM
Part of Texas 87 was wiped out in the hurricane and has not been fixed. That was the 1980 hurricane. So the eastern part and western parts dont connect, yet if youre heading eastbound on the western segment, it turns north and changes numbers.
Hurricane Jerry in 1989, not 1980. TX 87 was closed in 1990 after Jerry did that job.
PA 82 (http://www.pahighways.com/blog/archives/30-Route-Changes-End-Three-Decades-of-Futility.html) was a victim of Mother Nature as well when it became a divided route after Hurricane Agnes in 1972 washed away three bridges.
It wasn't until 2008 that the problem was rectified when the route was truncated to PA 23.
Quote from: texaskdog on August 05, 2011, 03:41:32 PM
Part of Texas 87 was wiped out in the hurricane and has not been fixed. That was the 1980 hurricane. So the eastern part and western parts dont connect, yet if youre heading eastbound on the western segment, it turns north and changes numbers.
El Paso has the short segments of US-62 (meaningless duplex with US-180 for hundreds of miles) and US-85 (unsigned thru CO & NM)
Just make TX-87 west of the hurricane closure an extension of TX-124, which is what TX-87 turns into at the eastern end of the western segment.
Quote from: Quillz on August 05, 2011, 08:07:47 PM
Speaking of natural disasters, mudslides are the reason CA 39 and CA 144 do not connect to CA 2 and CA 192, respectively. The former is supposed to be reconnected soon, not sure if the 144 will ever be fixed.
It doesn't look like the mudslide area on CA-144 is that large.
Arkansas has lots of non-continuous routes (begin, end, begin again...), many of which "end" at a county road.
A couple of the worst offenders are AR 74 and AR 60
Quote from: ftballfan on August 05, 2011, 09:54:11 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on August 05, 2011, 03:41:32 PM
Part of Texas 87 was wiped out in the hurricane and has not been fixed. That was the 1980 hurricane. So the eastern part and western parts dont connect, yet if youre heading eastbound on the western segment, it turns north and changes numbers.
El Paso has the short segments of US-62 (meaningless duplex with US-180 for hundreds of miles) and US-85 (unsigned thru CO & NM)
Just make TX-87 west of the hurricane closure an extension of TX-124, which is what TX-87 turns into at the eastern end of the western segment.
Quote from: Quillz on August 05, 2011, 08:07:47 PM
Or better yet, fix it
NJ 440 exists in two segments on either end of Staten Island, yet are signed in opposing cardinal direction pairs.
Quote from: Roadgeek Adam on August 05, 2011, 09:09:33 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on August 05, 2011, 03:41:32 PM
Part of Texas 87 was wiped out in the hurricane and has not been fixed. That was the 1980 hurricane. So the eastern part and western parts dont connect, yet if youre heading eastbound on the western segment, it turns north and changes numbers.
Hurricane Jerry in 1989, not 1980. TX 87 was closed in 1990 after Jerry did that job.
But doesn't Texas roadmaps continue to show Tx 87 as a through route?
As noted before, M-185 is car-free, but it has had an auto accident on May 13, 2005. Until then, it was the only state highway that never had a car crash.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-185_(Michigan_highway)
Other oddities in Michigan include:
* The former M-155 that's still a state highway (MDOT just pulled the signage but has yet to get it turned back to local control)
* An unsigned Interstate (I-296)
* Until it was decommissioned, M-209 had a top speed limit of 25 mph along it's half-mile length
* I-375 in Detroit is the shortest signed Interstate in the country, and it has an unsigned business spur.
* Various car company founders have been honored with highways named for them (Chevrolet, Buick, Olds, Chrysler, the Fisher Brothers), but Henry Ford is not one of them. Ford Road (M-153) is named for his father, and the two Ford Freeways are named for Edsel and Gerald. Maybe that's because Henry helped stop M-35's extension through the Huron Mountains?
* The popular name for I-194 in Battle Creek is "the Penetrator". (The state highway department called all of the downtown spurs and loops of the Interstate System "penetrators" during planning of the system.)
* There's never been an M-2, but all of the other numbers up to M-126 have been used at some point.
* Only about 2/3 of a mile of either US 131 or US 223 are outside of Michigan.
* Only one state trunkline uses a matching number with a state highway in another state. M-49 connects to SR 49 in Ohio.
* Several state trunklines connect to county roads or local streets (M-64, M-94, M-217, M-125) on the other side of the state line. The reverse is also true as WIS 17 becomes FFH 16, Indiana's SR 19 becomes Old M-205, the two SR 120s are no longer connected by M-120, and Ohio's SR 576 connects to Hillsdale Road.
* The Capitol Loop in Lansing is the only signed state trunkline in the state signed without a number. It's Connector 496 or Capitol Loop I-496 internally, but those numbers are not used publicly.
Quote from: US12 on August 04, 2011, 09:25:58 PM
M 185 is the only motorless highway in the usa also M-147 is know as "it's ... the second shortest highway on Michigan's state highway system, but for those who travel it one way, M-147 is the longest road in the world" as it terminates in the Jackson State correctional facility
M-147 was decommissioned 20 years ago in 1991.
Quote from: bulldog1979 on August 07, 2011, 02:05:47 AM
Quote from: US12 on August 04, 2011, 09:25:58 PM
M 185 is the only motorless highway in the usa also M-147 is know as "it's ... the second shortest highway on Michigan's state highway system, but for those who travel it one way, M-147 is the longest road in the world" as it terminates in the Jackson State correctional facility
M-147 was decommissioned 20 years ago in 1947.
Holy crap, it's 1967?!?
Some Virginia oddities:
A number of state highways do not connect to a state highway on either end (all but 4 of these are posted):
318, 320, 322, 324, 325, 326, 328, 330, 335, 336, 341, 342, 345, 353, 355, 370, 371, 379, 382, 392, 394, 398
VA 393 can only be driven one way.
VA 318 is closed to traffic (serves governor's estate); half of VA 346 is also permanently closed to vehicular traffic.
VA 212 has been used 6 separate times over the years.
There is a state route that is defined only as the ROW and not the road itself - VA 48 which is for the Blue Ridge Pkwy and Skyline Dr.
There are 3 state route designations that are really high (all unposted): 90003 Colonial Pkwy, 90004 Dulles Access Rd, 90005 G Washington Mem Pkwy
VA 75 was renumbered in 1940 to match TN 75 which never happened and it was extended north of US 11 by 1 block to accomodate US 11 being rerouted, which also never happened.
Mapmikey
Virginia Hwys Project
www.vahighways.com
Quote from: nyratk1 on August 07, 2011, 03:34:25 AM
Quote from: bulldog1979 on August 07, 2011, 02:05:47 AM
Quote from: US12 on August 04, 2011, 09:25:58 PM
M 185 is the only motorless highway in the usa also M-147 is know as "it's ... the second shortest highway on Michigan's state highway system, but for those who travel it one way, M-147 is the longest road in the world" as it terminates in the Jackson State correctional facility
M-147 was decommissioned 20 years ago in 1947.
Holy crap, it's 1967?!?
Nice job there. M-147 was decommissioned in 1991, which is what I am sure he meant.
Louisiana has hyphenated highway numbers like 1201-1, 1201-2, and 1201-3 in Alexandria. I know down around New Orleans there were at one times numbers that had up to 17 parts!
The only highway I know that isn't connected is LA 120 in Provencal and Robeline.
LA 66 is our "longest road"....ends in Angola, the state penitentiary
OR-27: Southern portion is a dirt road
WA-501: Two sections. One in Vancouver, WA and one in Ridgefield, WA
OR-224: Ends in Mount Hood National Forest and becomes a Forest Service Road (nice drive though)
Quote from: drummer_evans_aki on August 07, 2011, 03:27:52 PM
OR-27: Southern portion is a dirt road
One of only two non-paved Oregon state highways, the other being the northernmost 5 miles of the unsigned OR 413 into Cornucopia.
QuoteWA-501: Two sections. One in Vancouver, WA and one in Ridgefield, WA
California has a bunch of these: routes missing their middles.
QuoteOR-224: Ends in Mount Hood National Forest and becomes a Forest Service Road (nice drive though)
Oregon's other "dead-end" signed routes include OR 46, OR 70, OR 82 (although it does jct with two unsigned routes at its endpoint), OR 104, OR 131, OR 205, OR 227, OR 380 and OR 501, and I suppose you might include OR 86 since it doesn't junction with an ID state route at the border. There are several of the unsigned routes that also dead-end, including OR 413 mentioned above.
Oregon's entire state route system is something of an oddity: the distinction between Highways and Routes, and multiple different overlapping schemes for the route numbering.
SR-20, the longest road in the state of Washington, has a spur to and through Anacortes to the San Juan Islands ferry terminal. The spur has no distinguishing label as it shares the SR-20 name.
I am guessing some of the mountain states have some dirt state roads.
Quote from: ftballfan on August 07, 2011, 06:42:50 PM
I am guessing some of the mountain states have some dirt state roads.
Nevada, surprisingly, has no unpaved state highways. At least, not anymore.
SR 774, a spur from SR 266 leading to the townsite of Gold Point, was the last state highway to show up on official state maps as an unpaved road. It was finally shown as paved in the 2002-2003 edition of the map.
Quote from: ftballfan on August 07, 2011, 06:42:50 PM
I am guessing some of the mountain states have some dirt state roads.
I remember SD-71 in far SW SD was, and MN-243 near Caledonia & MN-65 in Nett Lake. They may have been paved since then though.
Quote from: texaskdog on August 07, 2011, 09:13:16 PM
Quote from: ftballfan on August 07, 2011, 06:42:50 PM
I am guessing some of the mountain states have some dirt state roads.
I remember SD-71 in far SW SD was, and MN-243 near Caledonia & MN-65 in Nett Lake. They may have been paved since then though.
I think from what I've read, MN 74 is the last MN route to not be fully paved.
MN-61 north of Duluth was being reconstructed around 2002 or 2003, IIRC. There was no detour and the parts under construction were dirt between removal of the old asphalt and the laying of the new. I figured that routing a detour was either not possible or would have taken one so far away as to be ridiculous. My friend was complaining about what the surface was going to end up doing to his car. Didn't help that it was raining that day. I figured this was going to be both my first and last experience on an unpaved state highway.
Several TX Farm-to-Market/Ranch-to-Market roads (the state's secondary highways) have ends that are not at another numbered road, they just stop somewhere in near-BFE, but usually it's at an intersection with a county road. A few of those have both ends not at another numbered road but somewhere along the way intersect a numbered road in-between at least once. There's not really any 'numbering convention' about FMs/RMs (except most--not all--FMs are found in the eastern half of the state, while most RMs--not all--are found in the western half of the state), although usually TxDOT doesn't have one near a similarly-numbered road nearby or in the same county to avoid confusion. One exception is FM 121 in Grayson County, which is in somewhat close proximity to TX 121 in Collin and Fannin Counties. Apparently a problem with some travelers, especially on US 75, some turn onto FM 121 looking for towns and/or DFW Airport specific to TX 121. TxDOT has gone to the trouble of removing the shields from the BGSs that face southbound US 75 traffic for the FM 121 exit and is using just text to label the BGSs instead. The BGSs also contain caveats at the bottom about not exiting there if you want to go to DFW Airport. Why no renumbering to something completely different? :confused: You'd think they'd get a clue by now, it's not like TxDOT has been averse to renumbering in the past. Here's the advance BGS: http://maps.google.com/?ll=33.445542,-96.602397&spn=0,0.008401&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=33.445364,-96.602302&panoid=MqoLzcbM7cesYq5bIVNFgQ&cbp=12,113.32,,1,1.32
Another one connected to FMs/RMs are state spurs that do not have an official "Spur" designation. They are signed the same as a Spur would be in TX, plain white square, black letters. But, these are spurs from FMs/RMs, which serve certain areas (communities off the main FM/RM, farm or ranch related facilities, even one that goes a few feet to a rural cemetery. When you look up the designation on TxDOT's site as a "Spur", you won't find it, but if you look under the same number in the FM/RM list, it's mentioned within the text of the FM/RM designation--just not separately designated, AND it doesn't use SPUR banners above an FM/RM shield, which probably would be a better presentation of the signage/shields in this case, but, they didn't ask my opinion first.
Usually, a primary state highway in TX doesn't intersect a similarly-numbered road of another kind, one glaring exception is in Matador, at the intersection of US 62-70 and TX 70 (http://maps.google.com/?ll=34.012204,-100.828249&spn=0,0.016801&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=34.012198,-100.828133&panoid=C84VMzrWMr4bN6djQF5rEw&cbp=12,324.69,,1,2.59). I'm not sure why the highway numberers let this happen, but I guess the few people out in Matador are stuck with it. The only other example (that I know of), when it is built, will be when I-69 crosses US 69 in the vicinity of Lufkin.
One primary state highway, TX 25, has it's northern terminus at a county road near the Red River north of Electra (http://maps.google.com/?ll=34.176128,-98.93064&spn=0,0.016801&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=34.176214,-98.930567&panoid=UtS8UrVIeYifl9Ac7vmwjw&cbp=12,231.23,,1,5.4)(the pic is of the first SB TX 25 sign, turn the orange man around to see the terminus). This is a very rare occurrence among primary state highways in TX, usually the terminus is an intersection with another numbered road. I've never heard why TX 25 was allowed to get to it's terminus point without stopping earlier at another numbered road, or a connection by bridge made to a nearby road in Oklahoma across the Red River. Some other primary highways end similarly but those are usually at state (like TX 217 at the entrance to Palo Duro Canyon State Park) or national parks (like TX 118 at the west entrance to Big Bend national park) or, like TX 207 in the panhandle, end at a state line (TX 207 ends at the OK panhandle state line and continues, not as an OK state highway but as a local county road).
Another primary state highway, TX 165, is designated but not signed, and doesn't intersect any numbered road. It serves the immediate vicinity of the TX State Cemetery east of downtown Austin.
TX 211 is probably the only primary highway to occur in 2 parts, both are west and NW of San Antonio. IINM, NIMBYness is keeping the 2 sections from being connected.
TX 190 is another discontinuous road but it's layout is different. It currently acts as the service road for the part of the Bush Turnpike between I-35E in Carrollton and TX 78 in Garland. There are 3 parts: I-35E to Kelly Blvd. in Carrollton, Coit Rd. to Alma Rd. along the Dallas-Plano and Richardson-Plano borders, and US 75 at the Richardson-Plano border to Brand Rd. in Garland. The Bush Turnpike only has partial service roads, and state law allows a state numbered road to only be represented along a toll road's service road, not on the main lanes. TX 161, along the part of the Bush Turnpike between I-635 in Irving and north of I-30 in Grand Prairie, has a gap now (due to no service roads in that section) for a few miles south of its interchange with TX 183 in Irving.
Quote from: apeman33 on August 08, 2011, 02:52:58 PM
MN-61 north of Duluth was being reconstructed around 2002 or 2003, IIRC. My friend was complaining about what the surface was going to end up doing to his car.
What is "IIRC"?
Too bad your friend is not one of us...who would see a car as a method of transportation, meaning to be driven hard.
If I Recall Correctly
Are any of the state highways in Kentucky or Virginia dirt? I was just wondering because both states (especially Kentucky) have a boatload of state highways.
Here's one: TX 1825 exits I-35 at the Pflugerville exit. It heads NE and then East on Pecan street into Pflugerville. It then dead-ends on TX-685 which begins there and heads North (right angle from 1825). Why they are not one road is beyond me, and I don't believe either road ever extended further. I would actually extend 685 south to Braker, and then head it west to I-35, and move 1825 over to Wells Branch Pkwy, which is 50 MPH and less populated.
Quote from: ftballfan on August 08, 2011, 10:43:18 PM
Are any of the state highways in Kentucky or Virginia dirt? I was just wondering because both states (especially Kentucky) have a boatload of state highways.
Virginia has one remaining normal primary route with a gravel segment - VA 91. Photo gallery available http://www.vahighways.com/va91/va91tazewell.htm (http://www.vahighways.com/va91/va91tazewell.htm). A couple of others are paved but so narrow in spots there is no center line (VA 91, VA 80)
I believe there are a couple state facility routes that may have gravel pieces - 314 and 331 southern segment come to mind.
Virginia has many state-maintained -secondary- roads that are unpaved...they can be pretty primitive in some locations.
Mapmikey
Quote from: ftballfan on August 08, 2011, 10:43:18 PM
Are any of the state highways in Kentucky or Virginia dirt? I was just wondering because both states (especially Kentucky) have a boatload of state highways.
Kentucky does have some gravel state routes. As for true dirt roads, I don't know. It's possible down in the western part of the state near the Ohio or Mississippi rivers.
OH 293 dead-ends in Wharton, OH. It was originally only 2 miles long, essentially a spur of US 30. In the 90s, it was extended eastward along US 30 so that it could absorb OH 699. Had they not done that, 293 would have become an isolated segment of the state highway system when US 30 was realigned in the 00s. (The Straight Line Diagram for 293 still does not reflect 30's relocation.) Interestingly, OH 293 now crosses US 30 on an overpass with no ramps, making it function more like a 6-mile spur connecting Wharton and Kirby to OH 53.
Quote from: bulldog1979 on August 07, 2011, 02:04:49 AM
* There's never been an M-2, but all of the other numbers up to M-126 have been used at some point.
I seem to remember that for a very brief time in the mid-70's, Schoolcraft Road in the Detroit area had been given an M-2 designation on what were the service drives (frontage roads) for the yet-to-be-completed section of the Jeffries Freeway (I-96). I remember seeing signs for it near the modern-day I-96/US-24 (Telegraph Road) interchange.
Given that Schoolcraft Road heading west towards Livonia never crossed another state or US highway past Telegraph Road, I am not sure how far the M-2 designation was used, or if the alignment turned on one of the North-South roads (Middlebelt Road??) and ended at Plymouth Road (then M-14).
It definitely was signed, though I can't find anything on it in my internet searches.
Quote from: thenetwork on August 12, 2011, 12:00:12 AM
It definitely was signed, though I can't find anything on it in my internet searches.
http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/MichHwys90-99.html#I-096 mentions it.
Quote from: thenetwork on August 12, 2011, 12:00:12 AM
Quote from: bulldog1979 on August 07, 2011, 02:04:49 AM
* There's never been an M-2, but all of the other numbers up to M-126 have been used at some point.
I seem to remember that for a very brief time in the mid-70's, Schoolcraft Road in the Detroit area had been given an M-2 designation on what were the service drives (frontage roads) for the yet-to-be-completed section of the Jeffries Freeway (I-96). I remember seeing signs for it near the modern-day I-96/US-24 (Telegraph Road) interchange.
Given that Schoolcraft Road heading west towards Livonia never crossed another state or US highway past Telegraph Road, I am not sure how far the M-2 designation was used, or if the alignment turned on one of the North-South roads (Middlebelt Road??) and ended at Plymouth Road (then M-14).
It definitely was signed, though I can't find anything on it in my internet searches.
Also, 11 Mile Rd in Macomb County was signed as M-6 before I-696 opened.
Some more oddities in Michigan:
* M-12, M-16, M-23, M-31, and M-41 have not been assigned since 1926, but M-24, M-25, M-27, and M-45 have all been used (I think M-24 and M-25 have existed continuously since 1926 or earlier)
* M-69, M-75, M-94, and M-96 were not renumbered when the respective interstates were completed (M-69 and M-94 are both in the opposite peninsula as the interstate with the same number, while M-75 is less than 20 miles from I-75 and M-96 is approximately 50 miles from I-96).
* M-46's western end is at a city street in Muskegon that was BUS US-31 until it was rerouted recently.
* Speaking of M-69, it was shortened in the 1960s only to be re-extended along its previous alignment in the 1990s.
* M-44's western end is at M-11 in Kentwood despite being concurrent with M-37 south of I-96. Even weirder is that M-44 was shortened to I-96 in the 1970s then re-extended back to M-11 recently.
* M-21, for a few years, was moved off of its present alignment between M-13 and Flint and onto what is now I-69. For those few years, current M-21 in that area was M-56.
Quote from: ftballfan on August 12, 2011, 09:29:41 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on August 12, 2011, 12:00:12 AM
Quote from: bulldog1979 on August 07, 2011, 02:04:49 AM
* There's never been an M-2, but all of the other numbers up to M-126 have been used at some point.
I seem to remember that for a very brief time in the mid-70's, Schoolcraft Road in the Detroit area had been given an M-2 designation on what were the service drives (frontage roads) for the yet-to-be-completed section of the Jeffries Freeway (I-96). I remember seeing signs for it near the modern-day I-96/US-24 (Telegraph Road) interchange.
Given that Schoolcraft Road heading west towards Livonia never crossed another state or US highway past Telegraph Road, I am not sure how far the M-2 designation was used, or if the alignment turned on one of the North-South roads (Middlebelt Road??) and ended at Plymouth Road (then M-14).
It definitely was signed, though I can't find anything on it in my internet searches.
Also, 11 Mile Rd in Macomb County was signed as M-6 before I-696 opened.
Some more oddities in Michigan:
* M-12, M-16, M-23, M-31, and M-41 have not been assigned since 1926, but M-24, M-25, M-27, and M-45 have all been used (I think M-24 and M-25 have existed continuously since 1926 or earlier)
* M-69, M-75, M-94, and M-96 were not renumbered when the respective interstates were completed (M-69 and M-94 are both in the opposite peninsula as the interstate with the same number, while M-75 is less than 20 miles from I-75 and M-96 is approximately 50 miles from I-96).
* M-46's western end is at a city street in Muskegon that was BUS US-31 until it was rerouted recently.
* Speaking of M-69, it was shortened in the 1960s only to be re-extended along its previous alignment in the 1990s.
* M-44's western end is at M-11 in Kentwood despite being concurrent with M-37 south of I-96. Even weirder is that M-44 was shortened to I-96 in the 1970s then re-extended back to M-11 recently.
* M-21, for a few years, was moved off of its present alignment between M-13 and Flint and onto what is now I-69. For those few years, current M-21 in that area was M-56.
The pre-1926 versions of M-24 and M-25 were in different locations. M-24 was renumbered M-20 when the M-20 number was moved off what became US 10. M-24 then served as a continuation of US 24. The original M-25 is now the eastern end of M-28 and part of M-94. M-16 became US 16.
The original M-45 is now M-95 and was renumbered in a three-highway number swap to keep M-45 and US 45 from being near each other. The original M-95 was renumbered M-211 to free up M-95 for the original M-45. The current M-45 on Lake Michigan Drive didn't receive its current number until M-50 was truncated to Lowell Township.
Quote from: NE2 on August 12, 2011, 12:31:59 AM
Quote from: thenetwork on August 12, 2011, 12:00:12 AM
It definitely was signed, though I can't find anything on it in my internet searches.
http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/MichHwys90-99.html#I-096 mentions it.
Map scan/photos or it didn't exist. I have a AAA map of Detroit to prove that M-6 was used on the I-696 service drives, or else that fact could not be included in the Wikipedia article on M-6. I'd love to start an M-2 article if actual source material proving it existed could be located.
Quote from: bulldog1979 on August 12, 2011, 10:49:34 PM
Map scan/photos or it didn't exist. I have a AAA map of Detroit to prove that M-6 was used on the I-696 service drives, or else that fact could not be included in the Wikipedia article on M-6.
What's it doing there? Two different things with the same name don't belong in the same article. Put it in the I-696 article with a disambiguation link up top.
Quote from: bulldog1979 on August 12, 2011, 10:49:34 PM
I'd love to start an M-2 article if actual source material proving it existed could be located.
Hopefully it would be merged with the I-96 article.
AZ64 Has A Segment marked N-S and E-W separated by Grand Canyon NP (AZ64 is signed thru the park)
AZ99 south end ends at a National forest boundary (Road continues as nf road to NF300 The Rim Road)
AZ 210 (Tucson) Does not meet any I, US or AZ Highway (Planed to Connect To I-10 Between Speedway Blvd and St Marys Rd, and at I-10 Near Alvernon Way)(Possible I-210)
Quote from: ftballfan on August 08, 2011, 10:43:18 PM
Are any of the state highways in Kentucky or Virginia dirt? I was just wondering because both states (especially Kentucky) have a boatload of state highways.
Louisiana has (as of 2009) gravel state highways.
Louisiana has (as of 2009) gravel state highways.
[/quote]
Absolutely it does! Especially around Kisatchie State Forest. But the LA 478 exit on Interstate 49 just south of Natchitoches is as soon as you get back to 2 lanes beyond the interstate. And I know I've heard LA 10 is gravel east of the Atchafalaya ferry from Melville. It's the old alignment of US 71 to Baton Rouge
Quote from: bassoon1986 on August 18, 2011, 06:08:43 PM
Louisiana has (as of 2009) gravel state highways.
Absolutely it does! Especially around Kisatchie State Forest. But the LA 478 exit on Interstate 49 just south of Natchitoches is as soon as you get back to 2 lanes beyond the interstate. And I know I've heard LA 10 is gravel east of the Atchafalaya ferry from Melville. It's the old alignment of US 71 to Baton Rouge
[/quote]
From Street View, it also looks like LA 478 was paved at one time and is now gravel.
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on August 13, 2011, 02:05:24 AM
Quote from: ftballfan on August 08, 2011, 10:43:18 PM
Are any of the state highways in Kentucky or Virginia dirt? I was just wondering because both states (especially Kentucky) have a boatload of state highways.
Louisiana has (as of 2009) gravel state highways.
I had taken a photo of La 69, near Bayou Goula (along the Mississippi between Plaquemine and White Castle). That was "my" Louisiana gravel road discovery. Now I can't find said photograph. :banghead:
Just out of curiosity, I was coming back from my vacation in Oregon and noticed that OR-99 is a de facto business route, similar to US-30. But, does it have a number of hidden concurrencies with I-5, similar to CA-1 does with US-101, or is it considered a route that exists in many non-connected pieces?
There are four (if not more) MS-149s. Yet, none of them are duplexed with US 49 in signage.
Quote from: Quillz on August 19, 2011, 12:07:43 AM
Just out of curiosity, I was coming back from my vacation in Oregon and noticed that OR-99 is a de facto business route, similar to US-30. But, does it have a number of hidden concurrencies with I-5, similar to CA-1 does with US-101, or is it considered a route that exists in many non-connected pieces?
I think it's defined as concurrent with I-5 in those sections, but the fact it's unsigned makes one wonder.
Quote from: apeman33 on August 05, 2011, 01:59:09 PM
There are also two K-171's but they were never connected. The southeastern K-171 was changed when K-57 was truncated with the new number matching the Missouri segment, 171 (which at one time was itself MO 57). There wasn't really a reason the change the K-171 in Smith County. It's just a short spur serving a small town.
Actually, It's Rice County. Also, it has been turned back. Bushton agreed to take over the road in exchange for getting ARRA money to repave Main Street.
Quote from: ftballfan on August 07, 2011, 06:42:50 PM
I am guessing some of the mountain states have some dirt state roads.
Arkansas has one: AR 220 from near Lee Creek, AR to Devil's Den State Park.
There was a section of 215 west of Ozone that was partially dirt, but it has been widened and paved over the last 2 years thanks to ARRA.
Quote from: route56 on August 24, 2011, 01:05:04 AM
Quote from: apeman33 on August 05, 2011, 01:59:09 PM
There are also two K-171's but they were never connected. The southeastern K-171 was changed when K-57 was truncated with the new number matching the Missouri segment, 171 (which at one time was itself MO 57). There wasn't really a reason the change the K-171 in Smith County. It's just a short spur serving a small town.
Actually, It's Rice County. Also, it has been turned back. Bushton agreed to take over the road in exchange for getting ARRA money to repave Main Street.
So we're back down to one K-171 now. Good. The way it
should be. (Well, except for the two K-8s)
Quote from: njroadhorse on August 06, 2011, 02:16:55 PM
NJ 440 exists in two segments on either end of Staten Island, yet are signed in opposing cardinal direction pairs.
I assume you mean NY 440?
Quote from: SidS1045 on August 24, 2011, 03:43:45 PM
Quote from: njroadhorse on August 06, 2011, 02:16:55 PM
NJ 440 exists in two segments on either end of Staten Island, yet are signed in opposing cardinal direction pairs.
I assume you mean NY 440?
No, NJ 440 - the segments being referred to are the Bayonne and Perth Amboy portions, with that NY 440 Staten Island route in the middle.
In KY, so there are too many to list, due to the sheer amount of state routes, but I will mention one. KY 1679, aka the Little Shepherd Trail, is a narrow one lane, partially paved road running 38 miles along the top of Pine Mountain.
"This rugged route is not for the faint of heart. Paved sections are easily traversed, but gravel sections, which compose about half of the Trail, can rattle your bones lose, if your heart doesn't jump out first! Mountain bikes and hikers greatly enjoy the more remote sections of this route. If you drive, a 4x4 vehicle is recommended. " - http://www.kingdomcome.org/kcsp/trails.html
OH 833 is a portion of what used to be US 33. Like US 33 in Ohio, it's signed as east-west. What's strange is the direction is reversed. That is, what used to be US 33 eastbound is now OH 833 westbound. Or, at least, that's how it loooks if you believe the signage on US 33 EB approaching Pomeroy. (I can't easily check the SLD at the moment...)
NY 42 is in two segments.
How about the new NJ US 1 & 9 shields with the "1 -9" or "1 & 9" inside one outline?
QuoteThere are four (if not more) MS-149s. Yet, none of them are duplexed with US 49 in signage.
Eight. Plus eight MS 184s, nine MS 145s (two of them quite lengthy), and five MS 182s.
The number of Mississippi routes with multiple segments is almost too many to count. Offhand, I know of MS 404, MS 491, MS 552, MS 607, and MS 609. Mississippi also has *A LOT* of dangling ends, and at least one route (MS 548) that doesn't connect to any other state routes.
On that note, there's still one Minnesota route that doesn't connect to any other routes due to turnbacks: MS 297 in Fergus Falls.
As noted before, MN 74 is the only Minnesota route that still has a gravel section. MN 65 has been paved (I've been on it) and MN 249 near Caledonia was turned back 20 years ago.
A few Vermont oddities:
- There's a town-maintained Vermont route that has a Super-2 section (VT 127 on the north side of Burlington).
- Another town-maintained Vermont route goes across a pontoon bridge (VT 65, now closed to traffic).
- VT 26 is all of about 69ft long.
Here are some in Alabama:
- AL 62 is a short, four-lane DIVIDED road that stubs off of AL 227 north of Lake Guntersville State Park. It serves a former Monsanto plant on the Tennessee River. None of the other roads in the area are four lanes (even though AL 227 east of AL 62's eastern terminus is an improved two-lane).
- Alabama insists on maintaining the rule that odd state highways are signed north-south, and even state routes are signed east-west. This is all well and good except for the fact that there are several state routes that don't travel in the direction they are "supposed" to. Here are a few examples:
- AL 227 is signed-north-south, but runs east-west from north of Lake Guntersville State Park to NW of Geraldine. It also runs in the wrong direction from AL 62 south to Guntersville (south is signed north)
- AL 35 is signed north-south but at Scottsboro it turns and runs east-west along the old routing of US 72
- AL 133 in Florence is signed north-south, but north of Florence it runs east-west along Cox Creek Pkwy from US 43/72 to AL 20.
- AL 149 in the Birmingham area is signed north-south but on either end of it it runs east-west (8th Ave S through the campus of UAB and Lakeshore Drive in Homewood)
- Like Tennessee and Florida, Alabama has "secret" state routes. Every US route has a secret state route. Mileposts follow the state route mileage instead of the US route. However, sometimes they are signed in the field (AL 74 along US 278, AL 4 along US 78 west of Jasper, AL). There are also instances where the secret state routes exist independently of their US routes, and are signed in the field until you arrive at the US route:
- AL 53 is the secret state route for US 231 between Huntsville and Dothan. However, at Huntsville AL 53 separates from US 231 and heads NW to Ardmore, AL to end at I-65. At Dothan, it separates from US 231 and heads SE to Cottonwood, AL. US 231 uses AL 1 for its secret route on either end of its routing in Alabama. US 431 uses AL 1 for its entire length, but US 431 ends in Dothan). It almost appears as if AL 53 is a split route without knowing that it follows US 231.
- AL 74 is US 278's secret state route, but it starts to be signed in the field in Winston County, AL. At Hamilton, US 278 heads south along US 43 and AL 74 heads west along old US 78 to end at current US 78/future I-22. AL 118 is US 278's secret route west of Guin, AL, but it is signed in the field for its entire length. ALDOT's Division Two happens to be where most of the secret routes are signed.
- AL 13 is US 43's secret route, but between Berry, AL and Spruce Pine, AL, AL 13 separates from US 43. AL 13 is signed in the field from Fayette County north, and is signed along US 43 in Fayette, Franklin, Colbert, and Lauderdale Counties.
- AL 25 is US 411's secret route, but the route goes much farther south than US 411's southern terminus of Moody, AL.
- AL 9 is US 331's secret route, but AL 9 goes much father north than US 331's northern terminus of Montgomery, AL.
Quote from: roadman65 on October 26, 2011, 07:49:24 PM
NY 42 is in two segments.
How about the new NJ US 1 & 9 shields with the "1 -9" or "1 & 9" inside one outline?
Do they look like this:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2273%2F2259964064_8b661a4cfa_z_d.jpg%3Fzz%3D1&hash=b0018785132c0f20cb4d03a9dc2664db202b5ec6)
I didn't know we had fractional US routes!
Quote from: deanej on October 31, 2011, 10:31:16 AM
I didn't know we had fractional US routes!
I believe that NM signs these like this near Raton on I-25 and the Egg Harbor Circle in Egg Harbor New Jersey uses them to direct motorists from ACY to US 40 and 322.
Quote from: NE2 on October 31, 2011, 08:11:39 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 31, 2011, 07:50:51 PM
Quote from: nyratk1 on October 31, 2011, 04:12:10 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 26, 2011, 07:49:24 PM
NY 42 is in two segments.
So is NY 24.
Ironic considering there the reciprical of each other.
Nope.
Well, according to Wykepedia, NY 42 was once one route. We both know that the LIE was originally NY 24 to explain the missing segments there along with some other changes.
It's not ironic and they're not recipricals or reciprocals.
Quote from: NE2 on October 31, 2011, 08:52:33 PM
It's not ironic and they're not recipricals or reciprocals.
No need to completely shoot roadman down. What he means is that it's a funny coincidence that NY 24 and NY 42 are both in segments and their numbers are reverse of each other.
Quote from: deanej on October 31, 2011, 10:31:16 AM
I didn't know we had fractional US routes!
Yeah it's Shreveport, LA's "almost" version of US 1 :-D
I may have brought up CA-164 earlier. If not, it's one of the odder routes in the state. It's completely unsigned, and its entire alignment is wholly within CA-19. Which means if it was signed, it would only be so via a concurrency with CA-19 that follows the exact same path.
On a similar note are CA-77, CA-112 and CA-260. None are signed and also part of the longer (signed) CA-61. However, unlike CA-164, it's because most of those routes were never completed. CA-77 was intended to have a longer and distinct alignment from CA-61.
SR 164 is like the others, in that its south end was never built.
Here are more California highways that don't terminate at other state highways:
Most of CA-146 is winding and only 1 to 1½ lanes wide, and it is split in half by the mountains in Pinnacles National Monument. I've had a chance to hike the trails between the two highway ends - one of them passes through caves that require a flashlight.
CA-162 has a 50 mile gap, with a dirt road connecting the 2 ends over Mendocino pass. In addition, the eastern end of the state highway stops abruptly in Brush Creek (the portion of the road eastward from here to Quincy used to be a state highway long ago).
CA-59 ends in Snelling and changes its designation to County Route J59. Tuolomne County wants J59 to be redesignated as a state highway up to CA-108/120, since it was recently improved.
CA-203 ends at Minaret Summit (it was originally proposed to extend westward through the Sierra Nevada mountains to provide access between the Central Valley and Mammoth Lakes).
CA-131 ends in Tiburon after only 4 miles.
CA-169 ends at the Yurok Indian Reservation.
CA-180 dead-ends inside Kings Canyon National Park.
CA-191 ends in Paradise. :cool:
CA-198 ends at the border of Sequoia National Park.
CA-202 ends at the California Correctional Institution at Tehachapi. :ded:
CA-211 ends in Ferndale (it was originally proposed to extend down the coast to CA-1).
CA-270 end just before Bodie State Historic Park (the road continues for 3 miles unpaved).
Quote from: Quillz on November 03, 2011, 08:09:28 PM
I may have brought up CA-164 earlier. If not, it's one of the odder routes in the state. It's completely unsigned, and its entire alignment is wholly within CA-19. Which means if it was signed, it would only be so via a concurrency with CA-19 that follows the exact same path.
On a similar note are CA-77, CA-112 and CA-260. None are signed and also part of the longer (signed) CA-61. However, unlike CA-164, it's because most of those routes were never completed. CA-77 was intended to have a longer and distinct alignment from CA-61.
61 also was supposed to be longer on the south end (to Route 84) and north end (either to the Cypress Freeway near the MacArthur Maze, or to today's 580 in Richmond) but those portions weren't built - which is how 260 and 112 ended up being part of signed 61.
There's even an EAST 61 sign there on 112 too!
Quote from: NE2SR 164 is like the others, in that its south end was never built.
I think the idea with the 164 designation was...the section that is 19 + the unbuilt short connector to I-605 would have been one freeway corridor, much as Doyle Drive in SF and Lombard Street were slated to be part of the I-480 routing (but never were signed as such).
Honestly the designation should just be reverted officially to 19, as it has been signed that way since 1934 with no change whatsoever.
Quote from: 2Co5_14CA-169 ends at the Yurok Indian Reservation.
Originally went further south to Route 96 until a 1964 flood.
IN PA in the western part there is PA 65 it starts southern end on the North Shore of Pittsburgh and the nothern end at Business 422 in New Castle, PA. In and around Ellwood City, New Castle, Zelienople, Beaver Falls, there are connecting Routes of PA
PA 288 (Ellwood City to Zelienople)
PA 488 (Energy to Volant)
PA 388 (Ellwood to Zelienople)
PA 588 (Ellwood to Beaver Falls)
There is a PA 88 but it is south of Pittsburgh does not have connecting routes.
Surferdude, that is because PA 88 used to extend north of Pittsburgh before the US Route system came about. Now that section is US 19.
OK 63A is a Y shaped route with three termini.
OK 77S is a partial loop around a lake, with branches extending off the main loop to connect with other nearby highways, giving it four termini.
OK 251A exists, with no OK 251 ever existing anywhere in the state.
Quote from: surferdude on November 11, 2011, 09:58:14 AM
IN PA in the western part there is PA 65 it starts southern end on the North Shore of Pittsburgh and the nothern end at Business 422 in New Castle, PA. In and around Ellwood City, New Castle, Zelienople, Beaver Falls, there are connecting Routes of PA
PA 288 (Ellwood City to Zelienople)
PA 488 (Energy to Volant)
PA 388 (Ellwood to Zelienople)
PA 588 (Ellwood to Beaver Falls)
There is a PA 88 but it is south of Pittsburgh does not have connecting routes.
PA 88 was signed all of the way to New Castle until 1961 on what is currently PA 65 (http://www.pahighways.com/state/PA51-100.html#PA65).
Not necessarily the same, but Missouri has had 2 Highway 88's:
The original ran from the AR-MO State Line to Lanagan (now Business US 71, Jesse James Rd in Pineville, and Route EE)
A later segment ran along Scenic Ave (and I think part of Chestnut Expressway) in Springfield.
The post is correct that a MN 74 is the last state road with a gravel section. The other unpaved roads in recent memory have been paved (parts of MN 1, MN 65, and MN 330) have been paved, or removed from the system (MN 249). I heard that MN 74 is still gravel because being in a deep valley it's vulnerable to flood damage which is easier to repair on a gravel road, but it also has very low traffic counts.
MN 101 exists in three seperate sections due to the difficulty in negotiating turnback agreements with multiple jurisdictions.
MN 197 has a bizarre number. It is not the legislatively assigned number and is much higher than the other arbitrarily posted numbers, which end in the mid 100s. I asked Mn/DOT about it who asked some of there old time engineers and didn't come up with a good answer.
BUS MN 371 is the only business route that's a trunk highway.
There are a number of routes in the high 200s, low 300s that connect(ed) a trunk highway to a state institution, usually only a few blocks long. (These are slowly being removed from the system). Some oddities are a route that had two branches, routes with no signs, routes that the public is not allowed to drive on, and routes that no longer connect to any other trunk highways.
For a short time in the early 90s US 52 had a gap in it due to the removal of a portion of University and 4th from the trunk highway system. US 52 has no signs between Minneapolis and Jamestown, ND, US 12 has no signs between Minnetonka and Minneapolis where they're concurrent with interstates.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 12, 2011, 08:29:19 PM
OK 251A exists, with no OK 251 ever existing anywhere in the state.
Check this link, there was once an OK 251D between Wagoner and Chouteau:
http://msrmaps.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=12&Z=15&X=360&Y=4984&W=3&qs=%7cokay%7cok%7c (http://msrmaps.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=12&Z=15&X=360&Y=4984&W=3&qs=%7cokay%7cok%7c)
My suspicion is that the OK 251 route numbers were intended to be temporary assignments to allow for state construction funding, and 251A was useful enough to keep on the state highway system. Why it was never renumbered into something that made sense is another matter.
CA-168 also has two segments. the connector across the Sierras is unbuilt.
710 has not one, not two, but six termini.
there is a north segment in Pasadena (state route 710 for inventory purposes, but not signed anywhere, except for a lone I-710 shield in the HOV lane on 210 westbound that is more accident than anything else - and on call boxes and bridge markers, one of which still bears the old designation of CA-7). this segment has the usual two termini.
the south segment, which is what everyone is familiar with as "interstate 710" has a northern terminus at Valley Boulevard. the southern end splits into three termini serving Long Beach and the cruise ship ports; all of them are officially part of the route.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on November 16, 2011, 03:34:12 PM
the south segment, which is what everyone is familiar with as "interstate 710" has a northern terminus at Valley Boulevard. the southern end splits into three termini serving Long Beach and the cruise ship ports; all of them are officially part of the route.
and what's even more nuts - the OFFICIAL terminus of Interstate 710 - as defined - is at Route 47...with Route 47 exiting off of itself in a Breezewood-like situation to reach the Terminal Island Freeway!
Based on signage, I think this terminus of 710 is shared with that of Route 103.
Quote from: formulanone on August 04, 2011, 10:12:32 PM
Florida's weirdos:
SR 9336 - Not sure how or why they came up with that number, it dead-ends at Everglades National Park (a good reason, at least).
Most likely has to do with a combination of the 4-digit numbering scheme and how the majority of Miami-Dade County's state routes are numbered, grid-wise.
Other oddities:
-State routes only signed on concurrencies, even though they transfer to county roads on either end (SR 437 in Ocoee, SR 231 in Brooker).
-SR 363 splits into three at its northern terminus in Tallahassee. A one-way-pair and the original spur up Adams to end at the railroad tracks.
-Besides SR 363, two other state routes end at railroad tracks (SR 404, SR 235).
-SR 265 ends at a hospital entrance (continuing as CR 151).
-SR 155 terminates just after crossing over I-10, with no exit.
-SR 61 ends at the Franklin/Wakulla County Line, along US 98 (though it's unsigned in this immediate area).
-
Two One state road is a partially brick road (
SR 526 and SR 15 in Orlando)
-SR 231 (the other one in Lake Butler) ends at the Dept. of Corrections, transferring to CR 231 south of there.
-FDOT enjoys signing (or sometimes listing) state routes along concurrent routes, where one ends permanently or becomes a county route at a certain point. SR 10/SR A1A; SR 200/SR A1A; SR 6/US 41; SR 25A(unsigned)/US 441; SR 419/SR 434; SR 20/SR 329; SR 24A (completely concurrent on its entire routing).
Quote from: florida on November 17, 2011, 08:17:02 PM
-SR 61 ends at the Franklin/Wakulla County Line, along US 98 (though it's unsigned in this immediate area).
If I'm not mistaken, it actually ends at Panacea. There are historic reasons for this, since SR 30 was planned to go east via Spring Creek and Wakulla Beach to St. Marks (pre-1945 map showing the route (http://fcit.usf.edu/florida/maps/pages/2500/f2510/f2510z.htm)).
Another end of SR 61 is at the Leon-Wakulla line, where it temporarily becomes Wakulla CR 61. Similarly SR 575 goes from US 301 to the Sumter-Hernando line.
Quote from: florida on November 17, 2011, 08:17:02 PM
-Two state roads are partially brick roads (SR 526 and SR 15 both in Orlando)
SR 15 is a brick one-way pair. Where's the brick on SR 526?
SR 145 has two sections, one fitting the grid at Madison, but the other far to the west in Fort Walton Beach.
Florida probably had the largest turnback to the counties of any state (Ontario did something similar ca. 2000).
Going by signage, the overlap of SR 33 with SR 50 in Lake County is SR 33 southbound but CR 33 northbound.
MS 178 technically exists in two portions - it terminates at a dead-end on the west bank of the Tenn-Tom near Fulton, and then resumes on the other side.
You'd think they'd just run it concurrent with U.S. 78 / I-22, since it crosses the Tenn-Tom about three miles south of there.
VA 154 has two segments. Only one has any postings, and even that is only from I-64.
Has there ever been a MD 9?
Quote from: Takumi on November 18, 2011, 12:38:10 AM
VA 154 has two segments. Only one has any postings, and even that is only from I-64.
Has there ever been a MD 9?
No. 7-10 (and 11) were skipped in the initial numbering, just as NJ skipped 13-20.
Quote from: froggie on October 31, 2011, 07:11:52 AM
QuoteThere are four (if not more) MS-149s. Yet, none of them are duplexed with US 49 in signage.
Eight. Plus eight MS 184s, nine MS 145s (two of them quite lengthy), and five MS 182s.
And a few MS 198s too (Tylertown, Columbia and Lucedale).
Oklahoma 37 is weird. Has a section in the central portion of the state and another in the southeast corner, where it connects to Texas 37. The two are separated by many other state highways and there is no sense of continuity between the two at all.
Quote from: Quillz on November 18, 2011, 04:22:13 PM
Oklahoma 37 is weird. Has a section in the central portion of the state and another in the southeast corner, where it connects to Texas 37. The two are separated by many other state highways and there is no sense of continuity between the two at all.
Presumably, it's meant to be treated as two separate highways rather than one discontinuous one (similar to I-76, 84, 86, or 88). Pennsylvania used to have the same thing with 17, there's the still existing one in central Pennsylvania, plus the unrelated one near Erie that's now solely I-86.
Here's my oddity. As mentioned in the "state highway grids" thread, Washington has a system of longer two-digit highways, and shorter three-digit spurs, although they're numbered the reverse of interstates and US routes (spurs off SR 24 are numbered SR 24x; spurs off one-digit highways like I-5 are numbered SR 5xx).
Oddity #1: SR 19 doesn't fit into the grid (in a completely different part of the state from SR 17 and SR 21), and would clearly be better suited with a three-digit number.
Oddity #2: Spurs off I-90 are numbered SR 9xx, and is apparently unwilling to share that range of numbers with SR 9. SR 9 has two spurs, they are numbered.... SR 92 and SR 96. Yeah, two-digit numbers. Wrap your head around that one.
QuoteYou'd think they'd just run it concurrent with U.S. 78 / I-22, since it crosses the Tenn-Tom about three miles south of there.
You'd think....but MDOT's intention is to use MS 178 for old alignments of US 78 that they want retained on the state highway system. Running it concurrent with US 78 across the Tenn-Tom defeats the purpose of that intention.
Quote from: Quillz on November 18, 2011, 04:22:13 PM
Oklahoma 37 is weird. Has a section in the central portion of the state and another in the southeast corner, where it connects to Texas 37. The two are separated by many other state highways and there is no sense of continuity between the two at all.
There are several state highways in Oklahoma with 2 different sections: OK 74, OK 2, OK 82, OK 69A, OK 37, OK 4, and OK 5 just to name a few. There are also 3 OK 9A's.
You gotta love Texas, they don't care about triplication of numbers. In West Texas , you have US 54, TX 54 and FM 54. The motorist should be able to figure out the differences, Right?
QuoteHere's my oddity. As mentioned in the "state highway grids" thread, Washington has a system of longer two-digit highways, and shorter three-digit spurs, although they're numbered the reverse of interstates and US routes (spurs off SR 24 are numbered SR 24x; spurs off one-digit highways like I-5 are numbered SR 5xx).
Oddity #1: SR 19 doesn't fit into the grid (in a completely different part of the state from SR 17 and SR 21), and would clearly be better suited with a three-digit number.
Oddity #2: Spurs off I-90 are numbered SR 9xx, and is apparently unwilling to share that range of numbers with SR 9. SR 9 has two spurs, they are numbered.... SR 92 and SR 96. Yeah, two-digit numbers. Wrap your head around that one.
That second oddity is the weakness of the three-digit numbering scheme that Washington has that uses XXn instead of nXX for branches of route XX. Under that scheme, those branches of SR-9 should be SR-092 and SR-096. Washington should have not used single-digit primary route numbers.
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on November 18, 2011, 07:12:01 PM
QuoteHere's my oddity. As mentioned in the "state highway grids" thread, Washington has a system of longer two-digit highways, and shorter three-digit spurs, although they're numbered the reverse of interstates and US routes (spurs off SR 24 are numbered SR 24x; spurs off one-digit highways like I-5 are numbered SR 5xx).
Oddity #1: SR 19 doesn't fit into the grid (in a completely different part of the state from SR 17 and SR 21), and would clearly be better suited with a three-digit number.
Oddity #2: Spurs off I-90 are numbered SR 9xx, and is apparently unwilling to share that range of numbers with SR 9. SR 9 has two spurs, they are numbered.... SR 92 and SR 96. Yeah, two-digit numbers. Wrap your head around that one.
That second oddity is the weakness of the three-digit numbering scheme that Washington has that uses XXn instead of nXX for branches of route XX. Under that scheme, those branches of SR-9 should be SR-092 and SR-096. Washington should have not used single-digit primary route numbers.
I agree. I came up with a fictitious numbering system where 0-99 are reserved for Interstates and US Routes, and then 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800 and 900 are the primary state route numbers. Everything else in between are technically "spurs," although they can be as long or as important as necessary.
Quote from: sandiaman on November 18, 2011, 06:38:01 PM
You gotta love Texas, they don't care about triplication of numbers. In West Texas , you have US 54, TX 54 and FM 54. The motorist should be able to figure out the differences, Right?
My gripe with Texas is that all the state routes are signed the same on interstate guide signs. And the signs are nothing like what they are on independent mounts -- "TEXAS" is supposed to go below the route number, and the Farm-to-Market roads are supposed to be signed in an outline of the state. Why are they done differently on interstate guide signs?
So NJ has only been mentioned so far for NJ 440 being in two pieces and the high exit number on I-76 leaving PA. Here are some other oddities:
NJ 7 exists in two pieces but is signed as one piece. The western piece ends at the Newark border, while the eastern piece begins about five blocks north and east at the county line on the Passaic River. No one really knows the western piece continues south past the eastern piece - and certainly no one knows why.
US 9 has a permanent closure at Beesley's Point. Let's see how long before it's rerouted.
NJ 20 ends as a one-way pair at the top of Paterson... but there's basically nothing for it to end at. Begin/end signage isn't even certain of where the route is. It just sorta starts as you come out from some buildings.
NJ 29, for a few years in the early 2000s, was legislated on a one-way street before NJ figured out the NB side had to follow NJ 165. Now both sides follow 165 (see below).
NJ 36 is C-shaped. It used to be signed east-west on the top and bottom legs of the C, meaning that over the course of driving the route you would reverse direction. "Take 35 to 36 east" was a headache.
NJ 37 had two pieces built that never became part of the route. One is in the middle of the state on CR 539. The other is on CR 524 at I-195, and was kept in the state Straight Line Diagrams as "NJ 524" for a long time.
NJ 41 was the only modern route to be signed as Temporary, and there's still plenty of signage around although the county-maintained route was made permanent because the bypass will never be finished.
NJ 43, until 1988, was signed where NJ 143 is now. Before 1953, all of US 30 was NJ 43. The little spur to Ancora was built as another piece of 43, meaning 43 would have intersected itself - but by the time it opened, the numbering had just changed to remove state/US multiplexes. So 43 in 1954 was completely different than 43 in 1952, yet completely related.
NJ 59 is now signed for all of a short block under a railroad overpass.
NJ 69 is the only 2-digit NJ state highway renumbered after 1953 (to 31).
I-78, as we all know, has traffic signals in Jersey City.
NJ 94 is the only NJ state highway that doesn't pick up as a numbered highway across the border. (It's a 4-digit road in PA.)
I-95, as we all know, has a discontinuity in NJ.
NJ 139 has a lower and Upper (officially NJ 139U) roadway, each 2-way. You can't get directly from the beginning of NJ 139 to the eastbound Upper.
NJ 152 is the next bridge up from NJ 52, but as far as anyone can tell, the numbering is completely coincidental.
NJ 161 was conceived (and numbered pre-1953) as a spur from NJ 3 (then S-3), but 3 was built on a new alignment (in the late 30s/early 40s) instead of along Allwood Road. Surprisingly, 161 was never connected to the actual 3. (It wasn't the only spur disconnected from its parent - NJ 87 was originally numbered as a spur of then-NJ 4, which followed US 9, but a key bridge was never built to Absecon.)
NJ 165 is (now) entirely duplexed with NJ 29, and it's unsigned. Why is it still around?
NJ 167 exists in two pieces. A mile and a half was decommissioned that is closed to all traffic, and the remaining gap consists of bridges that have long since disappeared.
NJ 182 ends catty-corner at NJ 57. It's where NJ 24 used to end, and any hope of extending 57 eastward has long been abandoned, so 57 should have absorbed 182.
NJ 413 is the only NJ state highway to not be state-maintained for any part of its length.
I-676 ends at the PA state line and is discontiguous from the Vine St. Expressway. Technically, it should be I-176, which may be why the number 176 was skipped in state route assignments. (Everything else from 151 to 185 was used at some point, although 178 was never built - 176 wasn't even reserved in legislation, which is very unusual, as NJ tends to reserve numbers even if it won't ever use them.)
Quote from: Rick1962 on November 16, 2011, 03:09:04 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 12, 2011, 08:29:19 PM
OK 251A exists, with no OK 251 ever existing anywhere in the state.
Check this link, there was once an OK 251D between Wagoner and Chouteau:
http://msrmaps.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=12&Z=15&X=360&Y=4984&W=3&qs=%7cokay%7cok%7c (http://msrmaps.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=12&Z=15&X=360&Y=4984&W=3&qs=%7cokay%7cok%7c)
My suspicion is that the OK 251 route numbers were intended to be temporary assignments to allow for state construction funding, and 251A was useful enough to keep on the state highway system. Why it was never renumbered into something that made sense is another matter.
Bizarre. More research!
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on November 18, 2011, 07:12:01 PM
QuoteHere's my oddity. As mentioned in the "state highway grids" thread, Washington has a system of longer two-digit highways, and shorter three-digit spurs, although they're numbered the reverse of interstates and US routes (spurs off SR 24 are numbered SR 24x; spurs off one-digit highways like I-5 are numbered SR 5xx).
Oddity #1: SR 19 doesn't fit into the grid (in a completely different part of the state from SR 17 and SR 21), and would clearly be better suited with a three-digit number.
Oddity #2: Spurs off I-90 are numbered SR 9xx, and is apparently unwilling to share that range of numbers with SR 9. SR 9 has two spurs, they are numbered.... SR 92 and SR 96. Yeah, two-digit numbers. Wrap your head around that one.
That second oddity is the weakness of the three-digit numbering scheme that Washington has that uses XXn instead of nXX for branches of route XX. Under that scheme, those branches of SR-9 should be SR-092 and SR-096. Washington should have not used single-digit primary route numbers.
Disagree. Typically, the one-digit routes have Xnn for branches of route X. I-5 has spurs from 501-548 (plus 599), US 101 (which would be SR 1 by location) has spurs from 102-119, and SR 3 has a spur numbered 310. So, particularly in the case of I-5, one of the great advantages of this system is that it allocates 10 times as many numbers for these routes. (The two-digit routes, partly by coincidence, partly by geography, are either shorter or in the more sparsely populated eastern half of the state, so they don't need as many numbers for spurs.)
So the problem isn't with assigning one-digit numbers to the primary routes. It only really exists where you have a conflict, such as between SR 9 and I-90, or between US 2 and SR 20. The correct solution is what they did in the latter case.
Since numbers beginning with 20x are used by US 2, SR 20 uses instead spurs beginning with 21x. Fortunately, SR 21 doesn't have any spurs, so there's no conflict there. Ironically, this would be even easier to implement to solve the SR 9 problem. Those spurs could have been given 91x numbers, and there would be no conflict since there's no SR 91.
Or, SR 9 and I-90 could have just used the same range of numbers. Between the two of them, they only have a total of five spurs.
Or, SR 92 and SR 96 could have just been numbered as spurs of other highways, as I proposed today in a fictional highways thread.
Or, SR 9 could have been given a non-conflicting number (see the same thread).
In conclusion, it's certainly a unique system (although West Virginia's fractional secondaries are similar), but I'd call these easily solvable idiosyncracies rather than weaknesses or failures.
I do rather like Washington's ad-hoc approach to its numbering system. spurs of 5 are 501, 502, 503. spurs of 26 are 261, 262, 263. spurs of 101, a major route? why, 102, 103, 104, of course.
it may not be the most completely internally consistent of numbering schemes, but it definitely serves to execute the intended purpose correctly.
the older route system (pre-1964), with lettered routes, was fairly unique as well. The primary routes were numbered, as today, but the spurs were lettered. I have seen a state route 2T shield.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on November 18, 2011, 09:26:20 PM
I do rather like Washington's ad-hoc approach to its numbering system. spurs of 5 are 501, 502, 503. spurs of 26 are 261, 262, 263. spurs of 101, a major route? why, 102, 103, 104, of course.
it may not be the most completely internally consistent of numbering schemes, but it definitely serves to execute the intended purpose correctly.
the older route system (pre-1964), with lettered routes, was fairly unique as well. The primary routes were numbered, as today, but the spurs were lettered. I have seen a state route 2T shield.
That is an interesting approach. Say a primary highway had 27 spurs, would we have seen 1Z followed by 1AA?
Quote from: PAHighways on November 14, 2011, 01:07:57 AM
Quote from: surferdude on November 11, 2011, 09:58:14 AM
IN PA in the western part there is PA 65 it starts southern end on the North Shore of Pittsburgh and the nothern end at Business 422 in New Castle, PA. In and around Ellwood City, New Castle, Zelienople, Beaver Falls, there are connecting Routes of PA
PA 288 (Ellwood City to Zelienople)
PA 488 (Energy to Volant)
PA 388 (Ellwood to Zelienople)
PA 588 (Ellwood to Beaver Falls)
There is a PA 88 but it is south of Pittsburgh does not have connecting routes.
PA 88 was signed all of the way to New Castle until 1961 on what is currently PA 65 (http://www.pahighways.com/state/PA51-100.html#PA65).
I found historic type 10 maps. 1930 Lawrence County it lists PA 65 as PA 315 which goes through Ellwood City to New Castle.
ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_PDF_FILES/Maps/Type_10_GHS_Historical_Scans/Lawrence_1930.pdf
1916 beaver County it lists it as appl routes and has different numbers
ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_PDF_FILES/Maps/Type_10_GHS_Historical_Scans/Beaver_1916.pdf
1926 beaver county does nor anything for route 65.
ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_PDF_FILES/Maps/Type_10_GHS_Historical_Scans/Beaver_1926.pdf
in fact it appears that it has not been built yet.
1941 Beaver County Map does list it as SR 0088.
ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_PDF_FILES/Maps/Type_10_GHS_Historical_Scans/Beaver_1941.pdf
1961 Beaver County Map shows PA 65
ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_PDF_FILES/Maps/Type_10_GHS_Historical_Scans/Beaver_1961.pdf
1958 lawrence county map has it lists it as PA 88.
ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_PDF_FILES/Maps/Type_10_GHS_Historical_Scans/Lawrence_1958.pdf
Quote from: hbelkins on November 18, 2011, 07:34:48 PMMy gripe with Texas is that all the state routes are signed the same on interstate guide signs. And the signs are nothing like what they are on independent mounts -- "TEXAS" is supposed to go below the route number, and the Farm-to-Market roads are supposed to be signed in an outline of the state. Why are they done differently on interstate guide signs?
Unlike independent-mount route markers in most conventional-road signing scenarios, freeway guide signs are designed to give plenty of advance notice of upcoming maneuvers. In order to do this successfully, route markers have to have a consistent digit height--which does not really occur with independent-mount markers because digit height on most markers other than the US and Interstate shields varies with digit count.
There is a standard design of guide-sign marker for Texas state routes (SH, FM, RM, PR, SP, BS, . . .) with fixed overall height, fixed corner radius, fixed height of route number digit (nearly always Series D, though some TxDOT districts use Series E or E Modified), fixed height of system designation word, and no fixed overall width. Texas does not use fixed two- and three-digit widths for guide-sign state routes, unlike most other states.
South Carolina and Louisiana have more than two standard shield widths to accommodate US and state routes respectively, and California used to have more than two standard widths each for US, Interstate, and state routes in the outline-shield era, but none of these states allow shield width to slide freely to accommodate the route number like Texas does. TxDOT's standard for guide-sign state route shields is not only a masterpiece of engineering for legibility; it is also, as far as I know, unique in the USA.
The potential for confusion across system is less than might seem at first glance. TxDOT state highways (SH) span just the low hundreds. FM and RM routes take their numbering from a common system (no FM has a duplicating RM and vice versa) and run up to the low thousands. Numbered routes on the other systems (PR, RR, etc.) are so rare as to be novelties.
Cross-system number duplications are typically well separated from each other, often by hundreds of miles. I know of just one situation on the 77,000-odd miles of state highway in Texas (and in the almost 11,000 TxDOT sign design sheets I have) where signing has to be provided specially to warn drivers against cross-system confusion: FM 121 and SH 121 have exits within about 20 miles of each other on US 75 north of Dallas and the FM 121 exit has signs warning drivers
not to exit if they want DFW Airport.
Quote from: Quillz on November 18, 2011, 09:36:13 PMThat is an interesting approach. Say a primary highway had 27 spurs, would we have seen 1Z followed by 1AA?
In old Washington Department of Highways parlance, the spurs were called "Secondary State Highways" and the letter suffix was always hyphenated in print materials. So Primary State Highway 11 (PSH 11) had, for example, Secondary State Highway 11-G (SSH 11-G) as a spur.
I am not sure there was ever a plan in place to address exhaustion of alphabetic SSH designator suffixes. I distantly remember reading, however, that there were "spurs of spurs" which resulted in designations like SSH 11-G3. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of Washington state highways can confirm?
Common practice in composing state highway shields for SSHs (for use both on independent mount and on guide signs) was to place the letter suffix on its own line below the numeric part of the designation. At that time Washington had just a two-digit marker (Houdon bust profile silhouette, unstretched). I presume that alphanumeric character height was higher for PSHs than for SSHs because the designation was all on one line for PSHs.
QuoteThe potential for confusion across system is less than might seem at first glance. TxDOT state highways (SH) span just the low hundreds. FM and RM routes take their numbering from a common system (no FM has a duplicating RM and vice versa) and run up to the low thousands.
Not intended to disagree with your statement, but a numbering oddity nonetheless. We visited the Fredericksburg/Kerrville area of the Hill Country a few years ago and i noted that a single route (FM/RM 337) east of U.S. 83 was alternatively signed both ways. Not on one signpost, but it changed as we proceeded, back and forth between the two [farm/ranch]-to-market routes. It was an area that was consistent with either kind of route, rolling hills and grazing land combined with valleys with agriculture.
QuoteThat second oddity is the weakness of the three-digit numbering scheme that Washington has that uses XXn instead of nXX for branches of route XX. Under that scheme, those branches of SR-9 should be SR-092 and SR-096. Washington should have not used single-digit primary route numbers.
Disagree. Typically, the one-digit routes have Xnn for branches of route X. I-5 has spurs from 501-548 (plus 599), US 101 (which would be SR 1 by location) has spurs from 102-119, and SR 3 has a spur numbered 310. So, particularly in the case of I-5, one of the great advantages of this system is that it allocates 10 times as many numbers for these routes. (The two-digit routes, partly by coincidence, partly by geography, are either shorter or in the more sparsely populated eastern half of the state, so they don't need as many numbers for spurs.)
It is what it is. So, our discussion is what should have happened in 1963 when the system was designed. My only point is that if all primary routes were assumed to be two-digit and - though I didn't state it - "imaginary" route numbers could have been assigned to U.S. and Interstate routes, a somewhat more coherent system could have been derived without stretching the numbering rules. (Of course, the "99%" of the driving public to whom this discussion would be gibberish could not care less.) So, if U.S. 101 were assigned "secret" SR-11 and I-5 had been assigned "secret" SR-15, ten spur / secondary routes would have been available for each primary route and a more consistent-looking numbering system established. This system would have immediately been challenged when U.S. 12 was extended into the state replacing U.S. 410 in part, and U.S. 830 (originally SR-12 east of I-5) eliminated from the U.S. system so it's academic.
Again, the overwhelming bulk of the driving public pays little or no heed to whether it's a random or systematic numbering system.
Quote from: J N Winkler on November 18, 2011, 10:11:25 PM
I am not sure there was ever a plan in place to address exhaustion of alphabetic SSH designator suffixes. I distantly remember reading, however, that there were "spurs of spurs" which resulted in designations like SSH 11-G3. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of Washington state highways can confirm?
No. But not every route had only two ends - PSH 3 had a number of branches (which had unsigned lettered suffixes for internal use). The numbers were (and still are) assigned by the legislature. Some time ago I compiled this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Washington_State_Highways/List_of_pre-1964_highways
As much as I like an orderly state route grid, I also like systems that are seemingly thrown together haphazardly. Some states just number their highways in the order they are created, with no regards given to orientation, length or importance. And I kind of like that.
Quote from: Quillz on November 18, 2011, 11:12:15 PM
As much as I like an orderly state route grid, I also like systems that are seemingly thrown together haphazardly. Some states just number their highways in the order they are created, with no regards given to orientation, length or importance. And I kind of like that.
I think that's why Ohio has so few "oddities" – it has no strict grid or pattern to break. Though I suppose credit is also due for not having discontinuous routes like many other states...
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on November 18, 2011, 10:16:23 PMNot intended to disagree with your statement, but a numbering oddity nonetheless. We visited the Fredericksburg/Kerrville area of the Hill Country a few years ago and i noted that a single route (FM/RM 337) east of U.S. 83 was alternatively signed both ways. Not on one signpost, but it changed as we proceeded, back and forth between the two [farm/ranch]-to-market routes. It was an area that was consistent with either kind of route, rolling hills and grazing land combined with valleys with agriculture.
The route description is here:
http://www.dot.state.tx.us/tpp/hwy/rm/rm0337.htm
There is no description for FM 337 (the appropriate URL was actually the first I tried). So it looks like the FM 337 signs are in error.
There have been various attempts to determine what rule TxDOT uses for deciding whether a given route number is RM or FM. FM if it is east of I-35, RM if it is west of there; FM if it serves primarily cultivated land, RM if it serves primarily rangeland, etc. There are too many exceptions for any of these to be plausible. (Would you want to try farming along FM 170, for example?) The most convincing theory I have heard is that TxDOT goes in with FM as the default and changes it to RM if enough ranchers complain about being on a "farm" road.
Quote from: TheStranger on November 17, 2011, 01:58:41 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on November 16, 2011, 03:34:12 PM
the south segment, which is what everyone is familiar with as "interstate 710" has a northern terminus at Valley Boulevard. the southern end splits into three termini serving Long Beach and the cruise ship ports; all of them are officially part of the route.
and what's even more nuts - the OFFICIAL terminus of Interstate 710 - as defined - is at Route 47...with Route 47 exiting off of itself in a Breezewood-like situation to reach the Terminal Island Freeway!
Based on signage, I think this terminus of 710 is shared with that of Route 103.
Actually, the only "official" route of 710 is down the west riverbank of the L.A. River, then the curve onto Ocean Boulevard/Seaside Boulevard until the Terminal Island Freeway. Right now, Caltrans only maintains the route until just north of Ocean Boulevard; the City and Port maintain the rest, including the spurs into Downtown and towards the Queen Mary.
This can be confirmed by both the legislative definition and the Caltrans bridge log, which doesn't mention, say, the bridge on the Downtown exit over the L.A. River, any of the structures along Harbor Scenic Drive, etc. The bridge log doesn't even mention the Gerald Desmond Bridge (which is along the intended official route, and is scheduled to be replaced by 2016. Once replaced, Caltrans will assume maintenance of this portion of the route).
Quote from: Quillz on November 18, 2011, 11:12:15 PM
As much as I like an orderly state route grid, I also like systems that are seemingly thrown together haphazardly. Some states just number their highways in the order they are created, with no regards given to orientation, length or importance. And I kind of like that.
You'd be happy in New England.
Quote from: NE2 on November 17, 2011, 08:32:33 PM
Quote from: florida on November 17, 2011, 08:17:02 PM
-Two state roads are partially brick roads (SR 526 and SR 15 both in Orlando)
SR 15 is a brick one-way pair. Where's the brick on SR 526?
Between US 17/92/441 and Hughey Street. Or, it used to be. I recently went out and saw why you asked.
Quote from: Steve on November 19, 2011, 01:54:15 AM
Quote from: Quillz on November 18, 2011, 11:12:15 PM
As much as I like an orderly state route grid, I also like systems that are seemingly thrown together haphazardly. Some states just number their highways in the order they are created, with no regards given to orientation, length or importance. And I kind of like that.
You'd be happy in New England.
Even happier in Kentucky (despite the initial grid).
Quote from: vtk on November 18, 2011, 11:16:08 PM
Quote from: Quillz on November 18, 2011, 11:12:15 PM
As much as I like an orderly state route grid, I also like systems that are seemingly thrown together haphazardly. Some states just number their highways in the order they are created, with no regards given to orientation, length or importance. And I kind of like that.
I think that's why Ohio has so few "oddities" – it has no strict grid or pattern to break. Though I suppose credit is also due for not having discontinuous routes like many other states...
With the exception of OH 152 with a gap between US 22 in Bloomingdale and OH 151 in Smithfield.
Quote from: surferdude on November 18, 2011, 09:49:21 PM
1926 beaver county does nor anything for route 65.
ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_PDF_FILES/Maps/Type_10_GHS_Historical_Scans/Beaver_1926.pdf
in fact it appears that it has not been built yet.
1941 Beaver County Map does list it as SR 0088.
ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_PDF_FILES/Maps/Type_10_GHS_Historical_Scans/Beaver_1941.pdf
1961 Beaver County Map shows PA 65
ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_PDF_FILES/Maps/Type_10_GHS_Historical_Scans/Beaver_1961.pdf
1958 lawrence county map has it lists it as PA 88.
ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_PDF_FILES/Maps/Type_10_GHS_Historical_Scans/Lawrence_1958.pdf
PA 88 wasn't extended to New Castle until 1936, but before that was signed on Perry Highway north of Pittsburgh.
Technically, these aren't state routes. They're federal routes. But they're in my state, and they're routes!
I-135 has always bugged me. It runs about 96 miles from Salina to Wichita. About 95.5 miles of that is concurrent with US-81. Yes, HALF A MILE of it stands alone as an interstate, from the 47th Street exit to the Turnpike.
Quote from: kphoger on November 23, 2011, 04:10:13 PM
Technically, these aren't state routes. They're federal routes. But they're in my state, and they're routes!
I-135 has always bugged me. It runs about 96 miles from Salina to Wichita. About 95.5 miles of that is concurrent with US-81. Yes, HALF A MILE of it stands alone as an interstate, from the 47th Street exit to the Turnpike.
My only guess is it comes down to brand recognition. Motorists feel more comfortable on an interstate than a US route, because they KNOW an interstate is built to freeway standards, whereas US-81, for its majority, is not built to freeway standards.
Perfect example: I-99. Does any portion of it currently exist outside the US-220 concurrency?
Not at all, though US 220 should really just move back to the old road (all state-maintained, parts signed as Business 220). I discovered that Maine Route 100 has a few blocks in Portland on its own and is otherwise completely concurrent with other routes. It's obviously an overlay designation to create a single number to Bangor, albeit a very messy one to follow.
There were once two separate VA 13's at the same time, along with US 13. The VA 13 that still exists today is essentially the original VA 13, although it was only US 60 from 1933-35. When US 60 was put on its modern alignment in 1935, the road inexplicably became VA 13 again. According to the VHP, (http://www.vahighways.com/route-log/va013-018.htm) the VA 13 signs could have still been up from 1933. I've always thought the road should have been numbered 12 instead, as VA 12 was briefly available in 1935 (when the 1933 VA 12 became part of US 220) but was recycled in 1936 when it was used on most of VA's current US 340. Even then, that VA 12 only lasted until 1954. So the state has had nearly 60 years to do a simple number swap.
Oh, and that other VA 13 I mentioned existed from 1938-1944, when it became US 13 in the Tidewater and points south. The US route number "extension" is a pretty common thing in VA, as many US routes that ended here have or had the number continue as a state primary route. VA 121 and VA/WV 311 are left over from when those US routes existed near them. US and VA 33 were both created from VA 4 at the time, though US 250's creation from VA 5 west of Richmond didn't warrant the eastern half of VA 5 becoming VA 250 for whatever reason (although US/VA 33 appeared 3 years after US 250).
Quote from: Mdcastle on November 16, 2011, 02:37:02 PM
BUS MN 371 is the only business route that's a trunk highway.
U.S. 2 Business at East Grand Forks.
Quote from: kphoger on November 23, 2011, 04:10:13 PM
I-135 has always bugged me. It runs about 96 miles from Salina to Wichita. About 95.5 miles of that is concurrent with US-81. Yes, HALF A MILE of it stands alone as an interstate, from the 47th Street exit to the Turnpike.
I don't supposed you haven't noticed most of the interstates in Kansas off of the Turnpike have a US highway concurrency. I-70 and US 40 are paired most of the way across Kansas (and US 24 is in the mix on both sides of the state line). I-35 and US 50 stay together from Emporia to Kansas City. Oh yeah, I-235 was once co-designated "Bypass US 81"
Next time I'm near Durand, Illinois (God only knows when that will be), I will have to take a clear picture of the END sign of Illinois Route 70. The sign isn't where maps say the route ends and even Wikipedia mentions that IL-70 ends at the intersection with IL-75. However, the END sign is about 1-mile beyond IL-75 in the village center (corner of Center St & Oak St).
You can actually see it here on StreetView. The END IL-70 sign is right in front of the blue car at the car dealership lot: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Durand,+IL&hl=en&ll=42.435537,-89.330907&spn=0.002284,0.003449&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=40.052282,56.513672&vpsrc=6&hnear=Durand,+Winnebago,+Illinois&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=42.435432,-89.331925&panoid=W3Hm8uAlTxEThWJvYjN25w&cbp=12,4.49,,0,2.55
VA 360's another weird one. It was US 360 until 1984, when US 360 was rerouted to run to Danville via its current route through South Boston instead of the more curvy Halifax route. Why they kept it numbered 360 instead of changing it to 344 (which is at the same intersection) makes no sense.
Quote from: Takumi on December 26, 2011, 11:03:12 PM
There were once two separate VA 13's at the same time, along with US 13. The VA 13 that still exists today is essentially the original VA 13, although it was only US 60 from 1933-35. When US 60 was put on its modern alignment in 1935, the road inexplicably became VA 13 again. According to the VHP, (http://www.vahighways.com/route-log/va013-018.htm) the VA 13 signs could have still been up from 1933. I've always thought the road should have been numbered 12 instead, as VA 12 was briefly available in 1935 (when the 1933 VA 12 became part of US 220) but was recycled in 1936 when it was used on most of VA's current US 340. Even then, that VA 12 only lasted until 1954. So the state has had nearly 60 years to do a simple number swap.
I haven't revamped the VA 13 page yet, but I have found where what is now US 60 between VA 13's eastern end and where they used to intersect again a little east of US 522 (removed when 60 was widened in the 1970s) was placed into the primary system in the Dec 1934 CTB. It makes no mention whether US 60 bypassed Powhatan CH starting then and what the old route (actually referred to as Old route 13) became VA 13 then. I think my theory about VA 13 signs still up thus the designation is valid...
Mapmikey
I think I know where that is. There's a short section where the two routes very closely parallel each other, to the point that there's a gas station that has an entrance from both. When I traveled VA 13 in February I was almost out of daylight, so I want to take a more detailed trip down it next year.
Quote from: kphoger on November 23, 2011, 04:10:13 PM
Technically, these aren't state routes. They're federal routes. But they're in my state, and they're routes!
I-135 has always bugged me. It runs about 96 miles from Salina to Wichita. About 95.5 miles of that is concurrent with US-81. Yes, HALF A MILE of it stands alone as an interstate, from the 47th Street exit to the Turnpike.
Actually, technically they are state routes. KDOT maintains them. :P There is no such thing as a "federal route".
How about FL 44 in New Smyrna Beach, FL? It has a mainline and a Business route, but both go through the city's downtown area. The east end of Business SR 44 is in the business district where its parent comes in and takes over.
Then FL 44 itself is an oddity as it goes completely across the Florida Penisula what usually even number routes ending in "0" do. Plus, it is signed as two segments, but it is silently multiplexed with US 441 from Leesburg to Mt. Dora and has a Lake County Route 44 from East of Leesburg to FL 19 in Eustis.
FL A1A is one as it is in many segments all, but two that actually loop back to US 1. Plus it has two letters in its designation. To avoid an actual SR 1 to confuse with US 1, FDOT decided to call it A-1-A instead as trying to keep a grid similar to the US numbering scheme by having the lowest odd number to the east.
Then FL 535 is called a "State Road" in Lake Buena Vista, FL even where Orange County maintains it. Usually all FL highways are shielded with blue and gold county route markers where FDOT is not maintaining it. Here you will find FL 535 shields from I-4 to Winter Garden- Vineland Road where State Maintainence ends at I-4 and has a small black on white sign to inform motorists there. FL 527 is that in Downtown Orlando, but city maintained and FDOT does let Orlando keep the road signed as SR 527.
FL 527 in Orlando, is not signed along NB Rosalind Avenue where SB FL 527 is Orange Avenue. On US 17, US 92, and FL 50 (Colonial Drive) there is no NB FL 527 shield at Magnolia Avenue (NB 527 at this location), but signed for SB FL 527 at Orange Avenue its counterpart one block west.
US 17, 92, and 441 is only shielded as US 441 from Central Florida Parkway in Southern Orange County, FL.
FL 482 is signed as both ways as East and West off of Exit 74A on I-4 when it does not even go west of I-4.
FL 438 is signed both ways (East and West) on US 441, though technically ends one block east at Princeton and Rio Grande, should really not be for that short distance. In my opinion FL 438 should continue on Princeton ( WB on Smith Street where Princeton is one way EB) all the way to US 17/ US 92.
On US 1 in our Nation's Capital, there is a no left turn sign where US 1 turns left from Constitution Avenue to SW 14th Street. So following US 1 SB here is illegal. However, a TO US 1 assembly lies on SW 7th Street directing through US 1 SB motorists through the 7th Street Tunnel to I-395 SB back to US 1 at the 14th Street Bridge. (US 1 is like a state route in DC as Washington is like a state almost).
Quote from: roadman65 on December 27, 2011, 09:24:41 PM
FL 527 in Orlando, is not signed along NB Rosalind Avenue where SB FL 527 is Orange Avenue. On US 17, US 92, and FL 50 (Colonial Drive) there is no NB FL 527 shield at Magnolia Avenue (NB 527 at this location), but signed for SB FL 527 at Orange Avenue its counterpart one block west.
Just a random missing sign(s). SR 527 is signed both ways on South.
FDOT was lazy, however, on SR 526, when northbound SR 527 moved - heading westbound, you see JCT SR 527 at Magnolia rather than Rosalind.
Quote from: roadman65 on December 27, 2011, 09:24:41 PM
On US 1 in our Nation's Capital, there is a no left turn sign where US 1 turns left from Constitution Avenue to SW 14th Street. So following US 1 SB here is illegal.
US 1 turns left at 15th.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 27, 2011, 08:14:18 PM
There is no such thing as a "federal route".
Depends on which viatologist you ask. :ded:
Colorado has a number of discontinuous state routes. These generally arose when segments of routes established in the 1930s-50s were relinquished to local governments. As an example, there are four distinct segments of CO-67 if you treat the segments connected by U.S.24 as different (Colorado does on its route log). The other segments are separated by county-maintained roads.
Because each segment of state highway has only one designation on the official log, Colorado considers highways with concurrent designated routes to have the designation of the highest-ranking highway (Interstate, U.S., state) or the route with the lowest number. Each broken segment is shown in the route log with a numeric/alpha designation. So, U.S. 50 is not recognized as a distinct route entering the state from the west because of its concurrencies with I-70, U.S. 6, and business loop I-70, until it separates from I-70 business loop in Grand Junction; then it is SR-50A from there east to Pueblo. Then, it has a short concurrency with I-25, so the route continui9ng east to Kansas is SR-50B. Business 50 near Pueblo is SR-50C, while the westbound street that forms the one-way pair with U.S. 50 east in Rocky Ford is SR-50D.
Furthermore, it is relatively uncommon for Colorado to post concurrent routes. U.S. 85 is not posted anywhere along its concurrencies with I-25, and U.S.87 is not posted at all (status of the lone sign in Denver is unknown).
All this leads to why it is impossible to follow some U.S. routes in Colorado without backtracking. I know of gaps in U.S. 24, 40, 85 and 87 where the designated state route ends without the ability to follow the route onto the adjoining interstate. Not sure about U.S. 6 - there is a definite spur (not marked as such, just as U.S. 6) on the west end of Glenwood Springs that ends in a dead-end frontage road. Matt Salek's web site indicates this is a "Spur U.S. 6" but all the local signage would lead me to believe I was following U.S. 6. Right up to a sign that reads something like "West [I-70] [U.S. 6] U-turn 500 feet".
In other words, segments of U.S. routes parallel to interstates are treated as state routes that can begin and end at will. The U.S. designation is carried for convenience.
Quote from: roadman65 on December 27, 2011, 09:24:41 PM
How about FL 44 in New Smyrna Beach, FL? It has a mainline and a Business route, but both go through the city's downtown area. The east end of Business SR 44 is in the business district where its parent comes in and takes over.
I'll do you one better. US 62 and US 62 Business not only both pass through downtown Niagara Falls, but they are only a block apart!
Just south of Hinckley, OH, SR-606 acts as a "helix" route in an interesting kind of way:
Heading Northeast on SR-606, the route begins at SR-3, then crosses the SR-3/SR-94 Multiplex and ends at SR-94 (and its brief multiplex with SR-303). Going Southwest, you start at SR-94, cross the SR-3/SR-94 multiplex, and end up at SR-3.
All of this happens in under a five-mile stretch.
See Map:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=200173742967122030437.0004b52ef8e0b27eb70a9&msa=0&ll=41.225021,-81.750126&spn=0.077338,0.204277
Quote from: Kacie Jane on December 28, 2011, 05:43:42 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on December 27, 2011, 09:24:41 PM
How about FL 44 in New Smyrna Beach, FL? It has a mainline and a Business route, but both go through the city's downtown area. The east end of Business SR 44 is in the business district where its parent comes in and takes over.
I'll do you one better. US 62 and US 62 Business not only both pass through downtown Niagara Falls, but they are only a block apart!
Then there's the concurrency in Downtown Nashville between U.S. 41 and U.S. 41A. Not to mention up the road in Clarksville where there exists what would be a double bannered route if Tennessee used the Alternate sign rather than the "A" suffix- Bypass U.S. 41A.
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on December 30, 2011, 01:11:49 PM
Then there's the concurrency in Downtown Nashville between U.S. 41 and U.S. 41A. Not to mention up the road in Clarksville where there exists what would be a double bannered route if Tennessee used the Alternate sign rather than the "A" suffix- Bypass U.S. 41A.
Also in Nashville: US 70 and US 70S concurrent for several blocks!
Also in Florida, FL 435 (Kirkman Rd) and CR 435 (Apopka-Vineland Rd) run parallel to each other in the Orlando area
Apopka-Vineland (south of SR 50) is not CR 435 in any practical way. There used to be signs at the south end marking it, but those are now gone, and I doubt there were ever signs north of Vineland.
This may be a Google Maps error, but it shows CR 435 running along Hiwassee Rd and Apopka-Vineland Rd/Clarcona Rd between Clarcona-Ocoee Rd and FL 414 (Maitland Extension).
Quote from: NE2 on January 01, 2012, 05:37:20 PM
Apopka-Vineland (south of SR 50) is not CR 435 in any practical way. There used to be signs at the south end marking it, but those are now gone, and I doubt there were ever signs north of Vineland.
There are signs now on Hiawassee Road from SR 438 (Silver Star Road) showing it to be CR 435. Orange County is funny about posting route shields as you know. FDOT is also the same way as you only see CR 423 to be posted on Sand Lake Road for John Young and a few in NW Orange. I wonder if the CR 532 is still there in eastern Orange County?
Yes, Silver Star is north of SR 50. SR 435 followed Kirkman-Colonial-Hiawassee-Silver Star-Apopka Vineland, and the possible southern piece at Vineland came later if at all.
http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00016513/00001/1x?vo=3 (1955, pre-Kirkman)
http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00016509/00001/1x?vo=3 (1982, last pre-county road, still no SR 435 on Apopka-Vineland south of SR 50)
http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00015606/00001/1x?vo=3 (1997, FDOT now has CR 435 on all of Apopka-Vineland, but it's kind of hard for the state to define county roads)
This photo contains the entirety of VA 162. Its west end is at the York County sign, and its east end is at the traffic light in the far background.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-kUhJYY8pWI8/TwSpy9rFSjI/AAAAAAAAAoc/PW0NCmIiArQ/s816/2011-12-31_14-21-47_685.jpg)
Despite this, it's well-posted, with a reassurance shield going each way. The eastbound one is sort of in the above picture, hidden behind the blue Adopt A Highway sign.
I just noticed the Wyoming/Idaho/Utah border area on Google Maps and thought it was a little odd.
http://g.co/maps/sgmht
Here we have Wyoming 89 branching off US 89 right before the latter heads west into ID.
http://g.co/maps/cuc7b
Nearby, we have Wyoming 89 again and Utah 30 connecting US 30 and US 89.
What's going on here? Are these states trying to confuse tourists to keep them in-state? Or was this an old attempt at stealing US routes from their neighbors?
for a while I had thought that was an old alignment of US-89: take WY-89 south from that T junction, to US-30 and to the second WY-89 segment, and then up UT-30 (old US-30S, IIRC), to Garden City, UT to connect again with US-89.
I do not believe it ever was an old alignment, but it may have been proposed, and Wyoming did some aggressive numbering.
California and Arizona did this in anticipation of the extensions of US-95 and US-195. What is now AZ-95 and US-95 in Arizona was the extension that Arizona proposed.
California proposed a much further west route, and had, at one point, signed as bear 95 a segment of road that would be US-395, between what is nowadays CA-14 and US-15 (back then, CA-7 and US-91), through Kramer's Junction and the newly signed (1934) US-466.
What became US-95 in California in 1938 or 1939 was originally bear 195, in anticipation of that branch route being extended, as opposed to 395 being the extended number (which came in 1935).
the finalized US-95 (again, 1938 or 1939) was a compromise between California and Arizona's requests for US routes, with the northern half of the route coming out of Vegas doing so in California, before hopping (along with US-60/70) across the Colorado River to Arizona.
so I am thinking that that 89 was also an aggressive renumbering proposal: numbering a state highway in anticipation of its hoped-for future US designation. Any other examples of this out there? the CA/AZ is the only one I can think of.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 05, 2012, 02:57:09 PM
so I am thinking that that 89 was also an aggressive renumbering proposal: numbering a state highway in anticipation of its hoped-for future US designation. Any other examples of this out there? the CA/AZ is the only one I can think of.
Much of US 93 in Arizona was once AZ 93. The southern portion of AZ 93 was decommissioned in the 80s but did provide the most direct Phoenix-Nogales route before being functionally supplanted by I-10 and I-19.
VA had some US "extension" routes that eventually become federal US routes: VA 522, VA 301, and VA 17 all eventually became those US routes, but in the case of 522 and 31 I think the plans were already in place to put them there. VA 17 took awhile to become US 17. But the US highway number continuing as a state route is fairly common here.
There, I fixed it.
Quote from: Takumi on January 05, 2012, 03:07:51 PM
federal routes
:pan: :banghead: :pan: :banghead: :no: :no: :no: :no: :no: :no: :no: :poke:
Good background info agentsteel - and I'd agree AZ 95 is another "oddity". (You'd think they would have given up by now and renumbered it.)
Quote from: flowmotion on January 05, 2012, 03:15:28 PM
Good background info agentsteel - and I'd agree AZ 95 is another "oddity". (You'd think they would have given up by now and renumbered it.)
it's especially odd given that its current routing is implied to be through Needles, CA, complete with Arizona-furnished green signs.
Mojave County 1 was the original alignment, but apparently there was a land dispute with a Native American tribe and the land could not be used for a state highway.
Quote from: TheStranger on January 05, 2012, 03:02:42 PM
Much of US 93 in Arizona was once AZ 93. The southern portion of AZ 93 was decommissioned in the 80s but did provide the most direct Phoenix-Nogales route before being functionally supplanted by I-10 and I-19.
you are right on 93... I had forgotten about that one.
also, I seem to recall vaguely a Montana state route 287.
any instances of state-to-interstate upgrades like this? CA-15 may one day qualify, if they ever upgrade it to full interstate standard.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 05, 2012, 03:11:27 PM
Quote from: Takumi on January 05, 2012, 03:07:51 PM
federal routes
:pan: :banghead: :pan: :banghead: :no: :no: :no: :no: :no: :no: :no: :poke:
We call US 1 down in Broward County "Federal Highway", which isn't so much and oddity as much it probably just pisses off at least a half-dozen members on this forum.
Florida SR 78 is weird because it changes maintenance status from state to county and back to state and county again.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 05, 2012, 03:21:06 PM
any instances of state-to-interstate upgrades like this? CA-15 may one day qualify, if they ever upgrade it to full interstate standard.
I can't think of any like this off the top of my head and TN 840 to I-840 is mainly roadgeek conjecture at this point.
However, my home state of PA has several interstates that were state or US routes, albeit not the same number.
1) Part of I-180 was PA 147.
2) The I-376 extension was PA 60.
3) The PA 17 in NW PA became I-86.
4) The Northeast Extension of the PA Turnpike (I-476) was previously PA 9.
5) Most of I-83 started life as US 111.
6) The infamous I-99 was solely US 220 before the I-99 shields went up. Someday, US 15 will join that party.
Of course, you do have the other way around with I-378 to PA 378.
The amusing thing is that when you're on US-89 south heading towards the Idaho line, all the destinations on mileage signs are for things along Wyoming 89, and billboards aggressively promote that way as "The fastest route between Salt Lake and Yellowstone"- Wyoming really wants people going that way for some reason
It probably is faster than US-89, but much less scenic
Quote from: corco on January 05, 2012, 06:14:01 PM
The amusing thing is that when you're on US-89 south heading towards the Idaho line, all the destinations on mileage signs are for things along Wyoming 89, and billboards aggressively promote that way as "The fastest route between Salt Lake and Yellowstone"- Wyoming really wants people going that way for some reason
It probably is faster than US-89, but much less scenic
it is, indeed, faster and less scenic. I have done both.
Wyoming probably aggressively promotes it now for the same reason they did then - they thought the corridor would be ideal for a US route. (Any factual idea, by any chance, on my conjecture that WY-89 was so numbered as Wyoming's proposal to be made into US-89?)
since the alternate route goes through three states, it could be made into something like US-289. or US-89A, but I do not know if AASHO is approving alternate routes these days.
Quote from: mightyace on January 05, 2012, 06:10:18 PM
I can't think of any like this off the top of my head and TN 840 to I-840 is mainly roadgeek conjecture at this point.
Same goes for VA 895 becoming I-895.
QuoteCalifornia proposed a much further west route, and had, at one point, signed as bear 95 a segment of road that would be US-395, between what is nowadays CA-14 and US-15 (back then, CA-7 and US-91), through Kramer's Junction and the newly signed (1934) US-466.
That sure didn't last long because I have a 1935 map that shows it as U.S. 395. It would be consistent with CA-7 originally following what became U.S. 6 in 1936 or so and U.S. 395, all the way to Oregon. Makes sense that some original designation was assigned to that route in 1934, kinda like the CA-44 designation originally applied to U.S. 299 by 1935. Lots of changes in that year.
Quotethe finalized US-95 (again, 1938 or 1939) was a compromise between California and Arizona's requests for US routes, with the northern half of the route coming out of Vegas doing so in California, before hopping (along with US-60/70) across the Colorado River to Arizona.
The extension of U.S. 95 south of Quartzite in Arizona didn't come about until the 1960s - I'll have to look at some old maps to narrow that range down some. From Quartzite south through Yuma it was AZ-95 till then, and U.S. 95 terminated at Blythe.
Quotealso, I seem to recall vaguely a Montana state route 287.
There still is a MT-287, which runs west from U.S. 287. About 1970, U.S. 287 was extended into Montana over MT-287 and MT-287A (the more direct route). Obviously that route had been numbered in anticipation of this extension, as per the topic of this discussion.
Quote from: formulanone on January 05, 2012, 03:53:40 PM
We call US 1 down in Broward County "Federal Highway", which isn't so much and oddity as much it probably just pisses off at least a half-dozen members on this forum.
That was named to distinguish the newer federal aid road from the old Dixie Highway.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 05, 2012, 03:21:06 PM
any instances of state-to-interstate upgrades like this? CA-15 may one day qualify, if they ever upgrade it to full interstate standard.
Much of what is now (admittedly short) I-97 was Md. 3, and a short section of present-day I-97 was once Md. 32.
I think he means routes that kept the number. I-469 was originally SR 469.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 05, 2012, 03:21:06 PM
any instances of state-to-interstate upgrades like this? CA-15 may one day qualify, if they ever upgrade it to full interstate standard.
Beyond the mentioned Indiana SR 469...
Part of I-410 was originally Texas SH Loop 410:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_410
I do wonder if Missouri 249 will ultimately become I-249. That's speculative...
Route 210 in California was submitted twice to become part of I-210 (and rejected in the late 1990s due to lack of route completion, I recall) and probably is slated to eventually go that direction.
Clark County 215 in Las Vegas seems to fit the pattern as well...
Not signed, but future I-710 in Pasadena is officially State Route 710...
Quote from: TheStranger
Not signed, but future I-710 in Pasadena is officially State Route 710...
The same is true for Virginia's portion of future I-785 around Danville. It's currently unsigned VA 785, as well as signed US 29 and (partially) 58.
Edited to fix
Quote from: NE2 on January 06, 2012, 12:51:32 AM
I think he means routes that kept the number. I-469 was originally SR 469.
that is indeed what I meant. I believe a section of 210 in California did indeed get officially changed from CA-210 to I-210 recently ... but, the fact is, CalTrans is so sloppy in that area, seemingly choosing to post state or interstate shields at random, that I just cannot tell.
another example I had just remembered: I-215 was once, briefly, CA-215. there is at least one location (Ramona Expwy westbound at the freeway on-ramps) where a sign has a clearly visible state route marker underneath a patched-on interstate shield.
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on January 05, 2012, 07:40:53 PM
That sure didn't last long because I have a 1935 map that shows it as U.S. 395. It would be consistent with CA-7 originally following what became U.S. 6 in 1936 or so and U.S. 395, all the way to Oregon. Makes sense that some original designation was assigned to that route in 1934, kinda like the CA-44 designation originally applied to U.S. 299 by 1935. Lots of changes in that year.
yes, 1935 is when US-395 was in place. So a CSAA (norcal) bear 7 is a rarity, as is a bear 95. bear 195 is easier to find, not just because of the fact that the original lasted for about 4 years, but because they reused the number for the old US-60/70 when that was realigned away from Box Canyon in 1947.
QuoteThe extension of U.S. 95 south of Quartzite in Arizona didn't come about until the 1960s - I'll have to look at some old maps to narrow that range down some. From Quartzite south through Yuma it was AZ-95 till then, and U.S. 95 terminated at Blythe.
you're right. 1961, I believe. forgot about that. there are no old-spec Arizona US-95 shields, alas.
In July 2011 North Carolina designated future I-295 as NC 295 on paper though it was not posted as such when I drove it in October.
http://www.ncdot.gov/doh/preconstruct/traffic/safety/Programs/routes.html (http://www.ncdot.gov/doh/preconstruct/traffic/safety/Programs/routes.html)
Mapmikey
NC Highways Annex
http://www.vahighways.com/ncannex/route-log/index.html (http://www.vahighways.com/ncannex/route-log/index.html)
While US 126 still existed, its western terminus was Eugene. When the highway from the coast was improved in the 60's, it received the OR 126 designation. However, I don't think ODOT ever intended to extend the US 126 designation over the new road; it ended up going the other way when US 126 was decommissioned in 1972 and replaced with OR 126. However, between 1965 and 1972 both US 126 and OR 126 simultaneously existed in Oregon.
Quote from: sandwalk on December 27, 2011, 08:15:36 AM
Next time I'm near Durand, Illinois (God only knows when that will be), I will have to take a clear picture of the END sign of Illinois Route 70. The sign isn't where maps say the route ends and even Wikipedia mentions that IL-70 ends at the intersection with IL-75. However, the END sign is about 1-mile beyond IL-75 in the village center (corner of Center St & Oak St).
You can actually see it here on StreetView. The END IL-70 sign is right in front of the blue car at the car dealership lot: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Durand,+IL&hl=en&ll=42.435537,-89.330907&spn=0.002284,0.003449&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=40.052282,56.513672&vpsrc=6&hnear=Durand,+Winnebago,+Illinois&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=42.435432,-89.331925&panoid=W3Hm8uAlTxEThWJvYjN25w&cbp=12,4.49,,0,2.55
An interesting OT in this Street View: All the parking lot lights at the car dealer, both sides of the street, have not only lamps aimed at their lots, but other lamps aimed at the street. I've never seen a business deliberately shine light on a street or highway before.
Quote from: txstateends on January 07, 2012, 09:02:24 AM
An interesting OT in this Street View: All the parking lot lights at the car dealer, both sides of the street, have not only lamps aimed at their lots, but other lamps aimed at the street. I've never seen a business deliberately shine light on a street or highway before.
Two thoughts. They might either have some sort of agreement with the city to provide street lighting there in exchange for a monetary concession somewhere else, or they consider it a worthwhile investment to cut down on the possibility of vandalism.
I know car dealerships often provide indirect but ample street lighting, probably to deter vandalism. Local to me, there is a pharmacy which, between its interior lighting and outdoor signage, provides plenty of indirect light to the adjacent streets. So much so, when the pharmacy is closed, the intersection is jarringly dark.
Edit: one of the roads there has been reconstructed, and now features streetlights.
I seem to recall reading that I-540 was preceded by an AR-540, in much the same way as how a segment of future I-49 in southwest Arkansas is carrying the AR-549 designation for now.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 09, 2012, 07:05:17 AM
I seem to recall reading that I-540 was preceded by an AR-540, in much the same way as how a segment of future I-49 in southwest Arkansas is carrying the AR-549 designation for now.
Yes. The original AR 540 was along the Ft Smith segment in the early 1970's (AHTD has a photo somewhere). It was later resurrected along the north leg of 540 from I-40 to US 71 at Mountainburg.
Quote from: texaskdog on August 05, 2011, 03:41:32 PM
Part of Texas 87 was wiped out in the hurricane and has not been fixed. That was the 1980 hurricane. So the eastern part and western parts dont connect, yet if youre heading eastbound on the western segment, it turns north and changes numbers.
El Paso has the short segments of US-62 (meaningless duplex with US-180 for hundreds of miles) and US-85 (unsigned thru CO & NM)
and some maps still say "temporary gap".
How about, in Louisiana, the fact that we have whole and half highways? We have LA 337 AND LA 337-1. We also have LA 840-1, 840-6... LA 840-3 has been deleted, but thats still three highways missing. Used to have LA 99 1/2 too. LA 490 and LA 490 Spur never meet each other. It's a weird system...
In Waldo, Ohio, state routes 47, 98, and 423 terminate at the same point. That might not be odd, but none of the routes overlap. I don't think this is a common situation.
Quote from: mcdonaat on May 14, 2012, 08:24:12 PM
How about, in Louisiana, the fact that we have whole and half highways? We have LA 337 AND LA 337-1. We also have LA 840-1, 840-6... LA 840-3 has been deleted, but thats still three highways missing. Used to have LA 99 1/2 too. LA 490 and LA 490 Spur never meet each other. It's a weird system...
West Virginia seems to do something similar.
I'd love to see a photo of a 99 1/2 shield.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 15, 2012, 10:57:49 AM
Quote from: mcdonaat on May 14, 2012, 08:24:12 PM
How about, in Louisiana, the fact that we have whole and half highways? We have LA 337 AND LA 337-1. We also have LA 840-1, 840-6... LA 840-3 has been deleted, but thats still three highways missing. Used to have LA 99 1/2 too. LA 490 and LA 490 Spur never meet each other. It's a weird system...
West Virginia seems to do something similar.
I'd love to see a photo of a 99 1/2 shield.
Tried my hardest to get one, but can't find one ANYWHERE!! I'm finally in Baton Rouge for the summer, so I can bug the mess out of the DOTD to get access to photo archives. I have a map that I can scan, and it shows the 99 1/2. Strangely enough, though, LDH maps from 1954 (the year that the numbers were changed) show that 99 1/2 was deleted and renumbered to State Route 2203.
I just think it's funny to see all of these states with only 200 or so state-maintained routes, yet Louisiana has too many to count. The roads that are subject to turnback by the DOTD are in terrible condition, so maybe that's why...
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 15, 2012, 10:57:49 AM
Quote from: mcdonaat on May 14, 2012, 08:24:12 PM
How about, in Louisiana, the fact that we have whole and half highways? We have LA 337 AND LA 337-1. We also have LA 840-1, 840-6... LA 840-3 has been deleted, but thats still three highways missing. Used to have LA 99 1/2 too. LA 490 and LA 490 Spur never meet each other. It's a weird system...
West Virginia seems to do something similar.
I'd love to see a photo of a 99 1/2 shield.
Not quite. I have never seen anything like that in WV. You must be referring to the "fractional" county routes, where the denominator indicates a branch off a main route.
You may have routes that branch off a US, state or main county route that are signed like "340/1", "10/22" or "1/1".
you mean in Louisiana, 337-1 is not a spur of 337? I had always thought that that was the case, like how WV does it.
Quote from: mcdonaat on May 15, 2012, 11:34:47 AM
Tried my hardest to get one, but can't find one ANYWHERE!! I'm finally in Baton Rouge for the summer, so I can bug the mess out of the DOTD to get access to photo archives.
please do. I'd love to see any and all shield photos, regardless of number.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 15, 2012, 11:38:33 AM
Quote from: mcdonaat on May 15, 2012, 11:34:47 AM
Tried my hardest to get one, but can't find one ANYWHERE!! I'm finally in Baton Rouge for the summer, so I can bug the mess out of the DOTD to get access to photo archives.
please do. I'd love to see any and all shield photos, regardless of number.
Sure will!
337-1 isn't a spur of 337, because we also have LA 415 and LA 415 SPUR. My only guess is that 337 used to be 337-2, but the -2 was dropped in favor of just 337. The 840-2, -4, and -5 are still a mystery to me, though.
Quote from: mcdonaat on May 15, 2012, 12:08:42 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 15, 2012, 11:38:33 AM
Quote from: mcdonaat on May 15, 2012, 11:34:47 AM
Tried my hardest to get one, but can't find one ANYWHERE!! I'm finally in Baton Rouge for the summer, so I can bug the mess out of the DOTD to get access to photo archives.
please do. I'd love to see any and all shield photos, regardless of number.
Sure will!
337-1 isn't a spur of 337, because we also have LA 415 and LA 415 SPUR. My only guess is that 337 used to be 337-2, but the -2 was dropped in favor of just 337. The 840-2, -4, and -5 are still a mystery to me, though.
and from your avatar, they dont fear 4 digit routes...and its not like LA is that big of a state!
Quote from: texaskdog on May 15, 2012, 12:59:08 PM
and from your avatar, they dont fear 4 digit routes...and its not like LA is that big of a state!
Louisiana seems to go up to the three thousands. do they have 3000+ distinct state routes? if not, what is the rationale behind which numbers get used?
I know Shreveport has an important bypass (freeway, even?) which is a 3xxx so it's not like the high numbers are for lower-classification routes.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 15, 2012, 01:02:52 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on May 15, 2012, 12:59:08 PM
and from your avatar, they dont fear 4 digit routes...and its not like LA is that big of a state!
Louisiana seems to go up to the three thousands. do they have 3000+ distinct state routes? if not, what is the rationale behind which numbers get used?
I know Shreveport has an important bypass (freeway, even?) which is a 3xxx so it's not like the high numbers are for lower-classification routes.
From driving around, the 1955 renumbering made the state better. However, it left a confusing mess of numbers that even I cannot understand. There are no 2xx routes, and no 2xxx routes. I have no clue why at all, though. We also have the XXX-X routes, most of which are roads that should be city roads. Some, like 1208-3 (connects LA 488 to US 165/167/71, and then US 165 BUS/LA 1) are important, but others, like 798-3, connect a state road to a city street. Louisiana has confused me to death, but I've just learned to grow with it (LA 3285 is 0.8 miles long, LA 1 is 436 miles long, but LA 1242 is 0.2 miles long, while LA 3132 is 10 miles long).
We don't fear 4-digit state routes... we embrace some 6-digit routes too (LA 1208-3 being an example over in the shield gallery).
The size-of-number-not-corresponding-to-importance issue also applies to some extent in Kentucky, though they seem to find low numbers for the most important routes (e.g. KY 4). For example, the bypass for KY 94 around Hickman is KY 1099, KY 1934 is a major partially access-controlled route in southwestern Louisville, and KY 3005 is a bypass of Elizabethtown.
Same thing here, but only the east-west routes. LA 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, and 12 are all super important, but LA 1 is a major road, LA 3 is about 90 miles long and twisty, LA 5 is about ten miles long, LA 7 doesn't exist anymore, and LA 9 is a rural route
Quote from: mcdonaat on May 15, 2012, 02:39:02 PM
Same thing here, but only the east-west routes. LA 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, and 12 are all super important, but LA 1 is a major road, LA 3 is about 90 miles long and twisty, LA 5 is about ten miles long, LA 7 doesn't exist anymore, and LA 9 is a rural route
There seems to be a rough grid in Louisiana, much like Kentucky. I'm talking about newer roads (KY 4 is a loop around Lexington, much like LA 3132).
Quote from: NE2 on May 15, 2012, 03:02:52 PM
Quote from: mcdonaat on May 15, 2012, 02:39:02 PM
Same thing here, but only the east-west routes. LA 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, and 12 are all super important, but LA 1 is a major road, LA 3 is about 90 miles long and twisty, LA 5 is about ten miles long, LA 7 doesn't exist anymore, and LA 9 is a rural route
There seems to be a rough grid in Louisiana, much like Kentucky. I'm talking about newer roads (KY 4 is a loop around Lexington, much like LA 3132).
From the looks of it, KY 4 was deleted in the 1940s when US 460 was extended, but the state changed the route to KY 40. KY 4 (the current one) was built in the 1950s, so the number was available for use. Interestingly enough, LA 3132 is a temporary designation, meant to ultimately be replaced by a full I-220 (which never happened). It's going to be replaced, from I-49 to I-20, as I-49, while the current I-49 north of 3132 is changing to I-149. The segment to the east of I-49 will hopefully be changed to I-169 or I-369.
Quote from: mcdonaat on May 15, 2012, 01:35:28 PM
There are no 2xx routes, and no 2xxx routes. I have no clue why at all, though.
Not true.
Here's a Kentucky route log, and I see plenty of 2xx and 2xxx routes in there.
http://bunkerblast.info/roads/ (http://bunkerblast.info/roads/)
Quote from: kphoger on May 15, 2012, 03:30:23 PM
Quote from: mcdonaat on May 15, 2012, 01:35:28 PM
There are no 2xx routes, and no 2xxx routes. I have no clue why at all, though.
Not true.
Here's a Kentucky route log, and I see plenty of 2xx and 2xxx routes in there.
http://bunkerblast.info/roads/ (http://bunkerblast.info/roads/)
Sorry about that, I meant Louisiana 2xx and 2xxx routes
Actually, that was my bad. It should have been obvious to me.
Quote from: mcdonaat on May 15, 2012, 03:23:13 PM
Quote from: NE2 on May 15, 2012, 03:02:52 PM
Quote from: mcdonaat on May 15, 2012, 02:39:02 PM
Same thing here, but only the east-west routes. LA 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, and 12 are all super important, but LA 1 is a major road, LA 3 is about 90 miles long and twisty, LA 5 is about ten miles long, LA 7 doesn't exist anymore, and LA 9 is a rural route
There seems to be a rough grid in Louisiana, much like Kentucky. I'm talking about newer roads (KY 4 is a loop around Lexington, much like LA 3132).
From the looks of it, KY 4 was deleted in the 1940s when US 460 was extended, but the state changed the route to KY 40. KY 4 (the current one) was built in the 1950s, so the number was available for use. Interestingly enough, LA 3132 is a temporary designation, meant to ultimately be replaced by a full I-220 (which never happened). It's going to be replaced, from I-49 to I-20, as I-49, while the current I-49 north of 3132 is changing to I-149. The segment to the east of I-49 will hopefully be changed to I-169 or I-369.
Were any one- or two-digit numbers available when LA 3132 was designated?
Quote from: kphoger on May 15, 2012, 03:30:23 PM
Quote from: mcdonaat on May 15, 2012, 01:35:28 PM
There are no 2xx routes, and no 2xxx routes. I have no clue why at all, though.
Not true.
Here's a Kentucky route log, and I see plenty of 2xx and 2xxx routes in there.
http://bunkerblast.info/roads/ (http://bunkerblast.info/roads/)
But... but... pooing is cool!
(He was talking about Louisiana.)
Louisiana makes you think of pooing?
Quote from: NE2 on May 15, 2012, 03:49:22 PM
Quote from: mcdonaat on May 15, 2012, 03:23:13 PM
Quote from: NE2 on May 15, 2012, 03:02:52 PM
Quote from: mcdonaat on May 15, 2012, 02:39:02 PM
Same thing here, but only the east-west routes. LA 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, and 12 are all super important, but LA 1 is a major road, LA 3 is about 90 miles long and twisty, LA 5 is about ten miles long, LA 7 doesn't exist anymore, and LA 9 is a rural route
There seems to be a rough grid in Louisiana, much like Kentucky. I'm talking about newer roads (KY 4 is a loop around Lexington, much like LA 3132).
From the looks of it, KY 4 was deleted in the 1940s when US 460 was extended, but the state changed the route to KY 40. KY 4 (the current one) was built in the 1950s, so the number was available for use. Interestingly enough, LA 3132 is a temporary designation, meant to ultimately be replaced by a full I-220 (which never happened). It's going to be replaced, from I-49 to I-20, as I-49, while the current I-49 north of 3132 is changing to I-149. The segment to the east of I-49 will hopefully be changed to I-169 or I-369.
Were any one- or two-digit numbers available when LA 3132 was designated?
Quote from: kphoger on May 15, 2012, 03:30:23 PM
Quote from: mcdonaat on May 15, 2012, 01:35:28 PM
There are no 2xx routes, and no 2xxx routes. I have no clue why at all, though.
Not true.
Here's a Kentucky route log, and I see plenty of 2xx and 2xxx routes in there.
http://bunkerblast.info/roads/ (http://bunkerblast.info/roads/)
But... but... pooing is cool!
(He was talking about Louisiana.)
Actually.... nope. LA 7 was still in use. LA 32 is available, but that's confusing when giving directions... considering La 3 is about three miles or so away, and imagine being told to take Hwy 80, but you can take Hwy 3 "too" :P
The DOTD does what it does, and asks nobody's approval. We do have a history of leaving US routes on the original alignments when possible. If a U.S. highway does become bypassed, it always becomes a 3xxx route, with the exception of routes bypassed before 1955 (La 182 for US 90, La 125 for US 165, La 471/La 34 for US 167). If it's new, though, you can bet its going to have a 3xxx number.
EDIT: Just got word from the DOTD that Louisiana has around 2500 individual routes. With over 17,000 miles, and 2500 routes, the DOTD maintains routes at an average length of 6.8 miles long.
As for four-digit route numbers.....
I find it interesting that the city of Monterrey (N.L.), in developing a numbering system for metropolitan trunk roads (both surface routes and expressways), chose one with four digits. There are only 32 routes in the system, and one of them is four digits long:
East-west: 6, 8, 10, 12, 16, 20, 22, 24, 26, 30, 34, 36, 40, 48
North-south: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 25, 27, 29, 31, 41
Rings/Bypasses: 210, 410, 910, 1610
Why 1610 ???
http://www.nl.gob.mx/?P=apdu_senaletica (http://www.nl.gob.mx/?P=apdu_senaletica)
It makes for one heck of a crowded sign: http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/4425/snv36817qk2.jpg (http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/4425/snv36817qk2.jpg)
If the first one were 110, it would be a (useless) pattern of squares.
How about all the signs in the San Fernando Valley for on ramps to the Ventura Fwy that have both north-south and east-west directional signs?
E.g., http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=34.157164,-118.413775&spn=0.002668,0.004128&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=34.157045,-118.413892&panoid=fc9dUPxSaCiF3LIrQgzMNA&cbp=12,197.39,,0,-1.81 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=34.157164,-118.413775&spn=0.002668,0.004128&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=34.157045,-118.413892&panoid=fc9dUPxSaCiF3LIrQgzMNA&cbp=12,197.39,,0,-1.81)
Given some of the previously-listed PA route oddities, I'm a bit surprised that nobody has yet commented on the truncating of PA 100 that took place within the last decade. Previously, south of US 30 in Exton; PA 100 went into West Chester (along Pottstown Pike) and then multiplex w/PA 52 for about 5 miles then break off near Lenape along Creek Road. From there it would head south (via a short multiplex w/US 1 in Chadds Ford) and then to the DE State line (where it would continue as DE 100 towards Wilmington).
Today, PA 100 south of Exton has shifted onto the previously unnumbered (in terms of signage) bypass and terminates about 2 miles later at US 202 just north of the US 322 West split. Such truncation results in DE 100 simply stopping at the state line.
Personally, given such truncation; I would have extended PA 52 along the old PA 100/Pottstown Pike north of West Chester to the current PA 100 and designated the old PA 100 leg from the DE State line to PA 52 as PA 200.
Quote from: mightyace on January 05, 2012, 06:10:18 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 05, 2012, 03:21:06 PM
any instances of state-to-interstate upgrades like this? CA-15 may one day qualify, if they ever upgrade it to full interstate standard.
I can't think of any like this off the top of my head and TN 840 to I-840 is mainly roadgeek conjecture at this point.
However, my home state of PA has several interstates that were state or US routes, albeit not the same number.
1) Part of I-180 was PA 147.
2) The I-376 extension was PA 60.
3) The PA 17 in NW PA became I-86.
4) The Northeast Extension of the PA Turnpike (I-476) was previously PA 9.
5) Most of I-83 started life as US 111.
6) The infamous I-99 was solely US 220 before the I-99 shields went up. Someday, US 15 will join that party.
Of course, you do have the other way around with I-378 to PA 378.
Once upon a time, the Schuylkill Expressway (I-76) was numbered as PA 43.
One has to wonder if PA 581 in the Camp Hill-Harrisburg area was once intended or planned to be a future to Interstate, hence the route number. To the southeast of that area, one has the short I-283 and the longer PA 283.
Another oddity is MA 127 in Gloucester. Between the MA 133 and MA 128 intersections, it splits into two and basically becomes a ring road around Cape Ann.
Quote from: kphoger on May 15, 2012, 03:56:01 PM
Louisiana makes you think of pooing?
No, Tim Brown does.
bunkerblast.info? Seriously? :ded:
Quote from: hbelkins on May 16, 2012, 09:55:43 AM
Quote from: kphoger on May 15, 2012, 03:56:01 PM
Louisiana makes you think of pooing?
No, Tim Brown does.
bunkerblast.info? Seriously? :ded:
Tim Brown's is one of the better .info roadgeek sites (though I can only think of one other...)
Quote from: njroadhorse on August 06, 2011, 02:16:55 PM
NJ 440 exists in two segments on either end of Staten Island, yet are signed in opposing cardinal direction pairs.
All of NY-NJ 440 is signed N-S except on the Exit 10 Ramp of the NJ Turnpike and I believe at the New Brunswick Avenue ramp off the GSP Service Road.
It was like you said that way before 1988 or sometime in the late 80s. Now it is all uniform.
Quote from: kurumi on May 16, 2012, 11:46:45 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 16, 2012, 09:55:43 AM
Quote from: kphoger on May 15, 2012, 03:56:01 PM
Louisiana makes you think of pooing?
No, Tim Brown does.
bunkerblast.info? Seriously? :ded:
Tim Brown's is one of the better .info roadgeek sites (though I can only think of one other...)
That's not a roadgeek site. That's the world's only viatology site. :spin:
Seriously, I have not looked at Tim's site and did not know he'd registered that domain name. I have to give him props for attempting to catalog Kentucky's numbered state highways, which go well into the 3xxx range and often change frequently (such as KY 3677 being added to the system in Perry County, and KY 978 being deleted in Owen County). However, I discovered that by manipulating the truck weight information data available on one of the official KYTC pages, you can get a
de facto Kentucky route log, and I'm a firm believer in not duplicating effort when possible.
If such a site existed for West Virginia, I'd delete my duplicative and hopelessly outdated WV state highway pages.
Quote from: mcdonaat on May 15, 2012, 01:35:28 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 15, 2012, 01:02:52 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on May 15, 2012, 12:59:08 PM
and from your avatar, they dont fear 4 digit routes...and its not like LA is that big of a state!
Louisiana seems to go up to the three thousands. do they have 3000+ distinct state routes? if not, what is the rationale behind which numbers get used?
I know Shreveport has an important bypass (freeway, even?) which is a 3xxx so it's not like the high numbers are for lower-classification routes.
From driving around, the 1955 renumbering made the state better. However, it left a confusing mess of numbers that even I cannot understand. There are no 2xx routes, and no 2xxx routes. I have no clue why at all, though. We also have the XXX-X routes, most of which are roads that should be city roads. Some, like 1208-3 (connects LA 488 to US 165/167/71, and then US 165 BUS/LA 1) are important, but others, like 798-3, connect a state road to a city street. Louisiana has confused me to death, but I've just learned to grow with it (LA 3285 is 0.8 miles long, LA 1 is 436 miles long, but LA 1242 is 0.2 miles long, while LA 3132 is 10 miles long).
We don't fear 4-digit state routes... we embrace some 6-digit routes too (LA 1208-3 being an example over in the shield gallery).
When the state highways were renumbered in 1955, state routes were legislatively divided into "A" (primary), "B" (secondary), and "C" (farm-to-market) systems. The numbers 1-185 were assigned to "A" and "B" routes and 300-1241 were assigned to the less important "C" routes. I assume that space was left between 185 and 300 for potential expansion in that number range (only one route number, 191, was ever added there).
Route numbers added post-1955 were designated in the 3xxx range. This numbering policy applied to all new routes, which explains why some 3xxx routes are minor back roads while others are full-blown freeways. This policy was continued until a few years ago, when DOTD started to assign route numbers sequentially increasing from the end of the original 1955 sequence (1241). The most recently assigned route numbers are thus 12xx numbers starting from 1242.
The hypenated routes are legislatively considered to be a single route (the base number) comprised of separate sections (the number after the hyphen). The text of the original 1955 legislation creating these routes makes this clear.
I don't suppose anyone knows when they switched from the pelican shield to the state map? was it during the great renumbering of 1955? several other states (Florida, CA) have switched route markers during a big renumbering to increase motorist recognition of the change.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 17, 2012, 01:44:41 PM
I don't suppose anyone knows when they switched from the pelican shield to the state map? was it during the great renumbering of 1955? several other states (Florida, CA) have switched route markers during a big renumbering to increase motorist recognition of the change.
The state outline shield was definitely in use before 1955, back to around 1948 or whereabouts. The diamond pelican shield was used at least up to 1939 (a map in my possession from that year confirms this). I would venture a guess of 1942 as that is when the Louisiana Highway Commission was replaced/reorganized as the Louisiana Department of Highways.
Quote from: Urban Prairie Schooner on May 17, 2012, 01:54:15 PM
The state outline shield was definitely in use before 1955, back to around 1948 or whereabouts. The diamond pelican shield was used at least up to 1939 (a map in my possession from that year confirms this). I would venture a guess of 1942 as that is when the Louisiana Highway Commission was replaced/reorganized as the Louisiana Department of Highways.
thank you for the info!
the implication is that there are likely old LA map route markers with block fonts, embossing, etc.
now that I recall, I believe I've seen a 1948 map which shows a map shield with block fonts.
do you know when they switched from white/black to green/white maps?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 17, 2012, 02:13:27 PM
Quote from: Urban Prairie Schooner on May 17, 2012, 01:54:15 PM
The state outline shield was definitely in use before 1955, back to around 1948 or whereabouts. The diamond pelican shield was used at least up to 1939 (a map in my possession from that year confirms this). I would venture a guess of 1942 as that is when the Louisiana Highway Commission was replaced/reorganized as the Louisiana Department of Highways.
thank you for the info!
the implication is that there are likely old LA map route markers with block fonts, embossing, etc.
now that I recall, I believe I've seen a 1948 map which shows a map shield with block fonts.
do you know when they switched from white/black to green/white maps?
The 1939 map just had an illustration of the route marker for reference. The state routes on the map itself were marked with plain circles.
The earliest pictures of the green on white shields that I have seen date from 1960 (La. Dept. of Highways Annual Report). Earlier Annual Reports (1950s era) show state outline markers only.
Quote from: Urban Prairie Schooner on May 17, 2012, 03:35:47 PM
The earliest pictures of the green on white shields that I have seen date from 1960 (La. Dept. of Highways Annual Report). Earlier Annual Reports (1950s era) show state outline markers only.
1960, eh? that predates the 1961 MUTCD which abolished the outline shields. I wonder if LA was the one which inspired the change, or if it was just a coincidence. most federal standards are adopted from states which had used them successfully for years. for example, the modern interstate shield (federal 1970 spec) was used in Pennsylvania as early as 1965.
I found out the hardway once that KY 57 exists in two disconnected segments. The northern section actually has a mileage guide sign indicating the distance to the end of the road, which ends at a gravel road leading to a pond.
KY also has at least one route that is built through a shallow stream, although I don't recall which one it is.
Quote from: tidecat on May 25, 2012, 07:09:53 PM
I found out the hardway once that KY 57 exists in two disconnected segments. The northern section actually has a mileage guide sign indicating the distance to the end of the road, which ends at a gravel road leading to a pond.
KY also has at least one route that is built through a shallow stream, although I don't recall which one it is.
KY 57 has been rerouted so that it is now a continuous route, but I don't know if it is signed like that since I have only seen maps and official order listings (for Fleming and Nicholas counties), and have not been there to see the signage.
Kentucky also has discontinuous routes for KY 8 (three segments), KY 70, KY 92 and KY 211 that I can think of off the top of my head.
Disconnected routes have always confused me... in most other states, once a highway is split in half, the numbering changes.
As a result of 1989 routing of US 1 onto I-93 and I-95 from Boston south to Dedham; MA 109 and MA 203 presently just 'end' at unnumbered roads. MA 1A does that as well but its close proximity to US 1 and I-95 (at Exit 15A-B) interchange overshadows its 'nowhere' terminus.
Not sure if anyone mentioned but Wisonsin has routes that follow another and end right on it after.
Quote from: PHLBOS on May 29, 2012, 03:02:44 PM
As a result of 1989 routing of US 1 onto I-93 and I-95 from Boston south to Dedham; MA 109 and MA 203 presently just 'end' at unnumbered roads. MA 1A does that as well but its close proximity to US 1 and I-95 (at Exit 15A-B) interchange overshadows its 'nowhere' terminus.
I believe MA 1A ends at US 1 - it actually turns east to do so, although signage uses "TO". I am willing to be wrong.
Quote from: Steve on May 29, 2012, 09:04:44 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on May 29, 2012, 03:02:44 PM
As a result of 1989 routing of US 1 onto I-93 and I-95 from Boston south to Dedham; MA 109 and MA 203 presently just 'end' at unnumbered roads. MA 1A does that as well but its close proximity to US 1 and I-95 (at Exit 15A-B) interchange overshadows its 'nowhere' terminus.
I believe MA 1A ends at US 1 - it actually turns east to do so, although signage uses "TO". I am willing to be wrong.
The
TO 1A listings on the EXIT 15A signs (I'm assuming you're referring to those) actually are a carry-over (since the older signs from the early 70s have long since been replaced) from back when the exit originally read
EXIT 15A NORTH 1 TO 1A Dedham. I guess the DPW didn't want to confuse motorists further by having two cloverleaf ramp exits listed as Southbound; 15A for 1A South, 15B for 1 South.
Where 1A turns east (Elm St. BTW) and ends at the Providence Highway
was US 1 pre-1989. Today, there's probably a TO US 1 trailblazer assembly with a right-arrow (pointing southbound) at the intersection... at least there was when I was last there 20 years ago. The old green directional signs that were there at the time, had all the NORTH & SOUTH 1 messages greened out.
Bottom line: 1A essentially ends at the unnumbered section of the Providence Highway just noth of the I-95/US 1 interchange.
Another Boston area (this one's actually IN Boston) state route oddity: the southern terminus of MA 99. On most maps, MA 99 is labeled as far south as and including the Charlestown Bridge (N. Washington St.) and essentially ending at the intersection of Causeway St./Commercial St./Joe Teche Way. However, if one were to actually drive that route; there's no signs past the Austin St./Gilmore Bridge interchange indicating that Rutherford Ave. south of that point is
still MA 99.
Northbound isn't any better. The first MA 99 signs don't start appearing until the same Austin St./Gilmore Bridge interchange. It's almost as if 99 south of Gilmore was an afterthought. If Boston doesn't want the Charlestown Bridge or any road downtown for that matter to have a route number, just re-route MA 99 onto the Gilmore Bridge where it can terminate either on MA 28 (Mnsr. O'Brien Highway) or US/MA 3 near the Longfellow Bridge via Edwin Land Blvd (this was once part of Memorial Drive).
You're right, about both 1A and 99. I don't know what I was smoking to forget US 1 no longer exists there :P
Back in August 2010 on a trip out that way I noticed on Washington St. southbound approaching the circle where it meets VFW Parkway (whether it's legally called that or not, it becomes that shortly north of there) and they were doing a lot of heavy work on that stretch of Washington Street. What do you know....they had put up a shiny, new, large "JCT 1" sign!
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.uakron.edu%2Fgenchem%2FCIMG1908.JPG&hash=6e0f5b6f2fca3a5c7e555ab83deda6b0ea4dc1cb)
US 1 hasn't gone that way in a long time, as discussed above.
Interestingly, Google street view of that location dates to 2007 and doesn't show a similar old sign. Maybe a JCT assembly was on the books for that location and had long ago either been knocked down or removed, only to surface in the records and be included in the plans for the new stuff?
Quote from: PurdueBill on May 31, 2012, 11:51:45 AM
Back in August 2010 on a trip out that way I noticed on Washington St. southbound approaching the circle where it meets VFW Parkway (whether it's legally called that or not, it becomes that shortly north of there) and they were doing a lot of heavy work on that stretch of Washington Street. What do you know....they had put up a shiny, new, large "JCT 1" sign!
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.uakron.edu%2Fgenchem%2FCIMG1908.JPG&hash=6e0f5b6f2fca3a5c7e555ab83deda6b0ea4dc1cb)
US 1 hasn't gone that way in a long time, as discussed above.
Interestingly, Google street view of that location dates to 2007 and doesn't show a similar old sign. Maybe a JCT assembly was on the books for that location and had long ago either been knocked down or removed, only to surface in the records and be included in the plans for the new stuff?
That pic could be a candidate for the
Erroneous Road Signs thread. :sombrero:
I, for one, would wish MassDOT would just put US 1
back to its pre-1989 alignment. If possible truck traffic along the Jamaicaway, the Fens or Storrow Drive was the real issue behind the re-routing of US 1, they could've just designated the current US 1 along I-95 & I-93 as TRUCK US 1 or BYPASS US 1 and left the old US 1 designation remain as it was. AASHTO be darned.
Rant over.
M-3 ends where M-29 begins and vice versa in Chesterfield Township, northeast of Detroit.
Sorry if it's been mentioned here already, but CA-65 and CA-84 have two different segments that are separate from each other. The CA-65 gap is much larger, as the north section is in Sacramento while the southern section is in Bakersfield. CA-84 is just between Livermore and Sacramento.
Quote from: CentralCAroadgeek on July 01, 2012, 02:01:47 AM
Sorry if it's been mentioned here already, but CA-65 and CA-84 have two different segments that are separate from each other.
CA-84 is just between Livermore and Sacramento.
I believe Vasco Road is the locally-maintained connection between the two sections of the latter route, CA 84.
A few other routes that I can recall being in two segmented pieces:
120
162
168
169
178
180
190
M-54 and M-83 both end in a 2-mile wrong-way concurrency to connect to I-75 at Birch Run. They could be easily consolidated. IIRC, IL-48 and IL-127 do the same thing south of Springfield.
Quote from: pianocello on July 01, 2012, 09:44:38 AM
M-54 and M-83 both end in a 2-mile wrong-way concurrency to connect to I-75 at Birch Run. They could be easily consolidated. IIRC, IL-48 and IL-127 do the same thing south of Springfield.
Or have M-54 run up the old Dixie Highway to Exit 144, with M-83 continuing south along current M-54 to the Dixie Highway. Then assign a three-digit number between M-83 and I-75.
Quote from: national highway 1 on July 01, 2012, 03:20:17 AM
I believe Vasco Road is the locally-maintained connection between the two sections of the latter route, CA 84.
Vasco Road is *not* part of CA-84. CA-84 is officially unconstructed between I-580 and CA-4 although there is a legislative definition for it.
Quote from: national highway 1 on July 01, 2012, 03:20:17 AM
A few other routes that I can recall being in two segmented pieces:
180
Not sure how CA-180 is segmented. The signed portion of 180 is continuous from CA-33 to Kings Canyon Nat'l Park. There is a legislative definition for a western segment between CA-33 and CA-25 but the entire route is unconstructed and therefore unsigned.
I don't think anyone mentioned Nebraska, but Highways 2, 27, 57, 59, 62, 64, 66, 103, and 121 all come in at least 2 segments. There's also the fact that Nebraska has spur and link roads which are numbered in the form L-xy or S-xy and not just given a number like every other state does. They also have 4 gravel roads on the highway system, NE 18 west of US 283, NE 65 south of NE 8, NE 67 between NE 2 and US 34, and, bizarrely enough, S-67C, which goes west of NE 65 to nowhere in particular.
Iowa has Iowa Highway 165, which is in Carter Lake, which is not only separated from the rest of the Iowa highway system, but is separated from every other street in Carter Lake, as it only connects to Abbott Drive in Omaha, the main road from downtown Omaha to Eppley Airfield.
Quote from: US71 on November 14, 2011, 09:00:31 AM
Not necessarily the same, but Missouri has had 2 Highway 88's:
The original ran from the AR-MO State Line to Lanagan (now Business US 71, Jesse James Rd in Pineville, and Route EE)
A later segment ran along Scenic Ave (and I think part of Chestnut Expressway) in Springfield.
To expand on the second incarnation of MO 88 in Springfield, it ran up Scenic Ave. from Sunshine to Chestnut Exp., then ran down Chestnut to Kansas Exp., then turned north on Kansas Exp. to Division St., then turned east on Division to Commercial St., then went down Commercial St. to end at Glenstone Ave. Hope that helps with the second MO 88 routing a little better
I always found it ironic that Scenic Avenue was one of the least scenic streets in Springfield.
Quote from: DandyDan on July 03, 2012, 03:23:59 AM
I don't think anyone mentioned Nebraska, but Highways 2, 27, 57, 59, 62, 64, 66, 103, and 121 all come in at least 2 segments. There's also the fact that Nebraska has spur and link roads which are numbered in the form L-xy or S-xy and not just given a number like every other state does. They also have 4 gravel roads on the highway system, NE 18 west of US 283, NE 65 south of NE 8, NE 67 between NE 2 and US 34, and, bizarrely enough, S-67C, which goes west of NE 65 to nowhere in particular.
I had been wondering about Spur 67C myself for years. Turns out that it was the original planned route of Nebraska 3S (now Nebraska 8). This map shows the Nebraska highway system as planned in 1955, but was never completed: http://www.transportation.nebraska.gov/maps/historical/pdf/st_hwy55-hi-res.pdf What I don't understand is why this hasn't been decommissioned yet, especially as it somehow survived the renumbering process of 1971 (it was originally Nebraska 165).
NH 84, 85, 87, and 88 are all in Rockingham County only.
MA 99 is the only route in Melrose, even though bordering towns have many more routes.
When it comes to routes that don't end at other routes, Ohio has several. A few I can think of...
(In most of these cases, the state route designation ends, but the road itself continues as a local road)
OH 53 N ends at the entrance to the Miller Ferry at Catawba Point
OH 269 N ends at East Harbor State Park
OH 163 E ends southwest of Marblehead, after wrapping around the Marblehead peninsula and having a couple miles of wrong way alignment
OH 231 S ends on the streets of Morral, OH
OH 293 N ends on the streets of Wharton, OH
OH 728 (which I think should be part of OH 348) is a spur that ends at the Southern Ohio Correctional Facility near Lucasville
OH 372 is a spur that ends at the Scioto Trail State Forest
And there are at least 2 routes completely discontiguous from the rest of Ohio's state route system:
OH 357 - entirely on South Bass Island
OH 575 - entirely on Kelleys Island
Besides a chunk of the Berlin Turnpike (US 5/CT 15) and CT 287, Newington, CT has state routes 173 (mostly Willard Avenue), 174, 175 (Cedar Street) and 176 in it.
http://goo.gl/maps/cW1eR
In New York, there are two different routes designated NY 24, one of which is east/west and the other north/south. NY 878 has a gap in it, and one of the two section is a floating segment not connecting to any other state or interstate route. NY 27A is also applied to two different routes, although one of them is unsigned.
New York has an unsigned interstate, I-478. Also, there are both NY 2 and US 2 in the same state.
Quote from: Buck87 on January 25, 2014, 10:26:02 AM
When it comes to routes that don't end at other routes, Ohio has several. A few I can think of...
(In most of these cases, the state route designation ends, but the road itself continues as a local road)
Also the spur to John Bryan State Park (whose number I forget) and the former state highway from Lancaster to the women's prison (793, I think it was).
State routes that don't end at another route or a state border:
MA 150
MA 203
MA 228
State routes that end at each other:
MA 114 and MA 129
MA 111 and MA 119
Almost NH 84 and NH 88
Quote from: dgolub on January 25, 2014, 10:43:15 AM
In New York, there are two different routes designated NY 24, one of which is east/west and the other north/south. NY 878 has a gap in it, and one of the two section is a floating segment not connecting to any other state or interstate route. NY 27A is also applied to two different routes, although one of them is unsigned.
New York has an unsigned interstate, I-478.
Also I-878, which is entirely multiplexed with NY 878 east between I-678 and the JFK expressway.
QuoteAlso, there are both NY 2 and US 2 in the same state.
Also:
-US 15/NY 15 (NY 15 being former US 15 in this case)
-US 220/NY 220 (another short case of duplication like US 2)
QuoteAlso, there are both NY 2 and US 2 in the same state.
US 4 and NH 4 both exist in New Hampshire - and they are very close to each other!
Additionally, NH 111A exists 3 times.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 04, 2011, 09:02:42 PM
California has plenty of examples of this. CA-84 is in several segments, making it next to useless for navigational purposes between the Dumbarton Bridge and Sacramento (then again, if you're taking that, instead of 680 to 80, to Sacramento, you're clearly looking for adventure).
CA-173 is the only dirt road segment in the system, and it is appallingly bad, even by dirt-road standards.
CA-65 is another one, CA-90 are California highways with gaps.
We here in SD have only 3 routes with gaps that I can think of, being SD 20, SD 25, and SD 271 (Okay, discounting the 1804/1806 madness). SD 271 is odd in that the non-state-highway part is only about 10 miles long, paved, and connects the two segments.
In VA, the longest designated state route (VA-48, about 320 mi) isn't an actual road. It's the ROW (but not the road itself) for the Blue Ridge Pkwy and Skyline Drive.
Quote from: Steve on November 18, 2011, 08:00:29 PM
NJ 94 is the only NJ state highway that doesn't pick up as a numbered highway across the border. (It's a 4-digit road in PA.)
NJ 90 doesn't either. PA 90 either was never built or was decommissioned when plans its extension were abandoned depending on whom you ask.
Quote from: 1 on January 25, 2014, 04:12:35 PM
QuoteAlso, there are both NY 2 and US 2 in the same state.
US 4 and NH 4 both exist in New Hampshire - and they are very close to each other!
Additionally, NH 111A exists 3 times.
Delaware 202 is an old alignment of US 202 and splits of from same. DE 9 has nothing to do with US 9, but both exist in Delaware.
NH 4 was probably intended as an extension of US 4: http://www.floodgap.com/roadgap/me/r?4
Alabama has numerous state routes that terminate at junctions with county roads. AL-145, AL-235, and AL-261 all come to mind.
AL-759 (the surface road continuation of I-759, and the only east-west odd-numbered route in the state) has its east bound terminus at a T-intersection with AL-291 in Gadsden. AL-291 has its south bound terminus at the same intersection. There is no route designation for the third leg of the T.
CT 272 is the only route in CT that ends at a state border, but does not cross into another state as a numbered route (either state or county)
Quote from: NE2 on November 18, 2011, 12:41:43 AM
Quote from: Takumi on November 18, 2011, 12:38:10 AM
VA 154 has two segments. Only one has any postings, and even that is only from I-64.
Has there ever been a MD 9?
No. 7-10 (and 11) were skipped in the initial numbering, just as NJ skipped 13-20.
I always wondered about this! Do you know of any books or other sources that explain why the SRC skipped 7 through 10 when mapping out the original number clusters?
Quote from: TheOneKEA on January 26, 2014, 11:44:26 AM
I always wondered about this! Do you know of any books or other sources that explain why the SRC skipped 7 through 10 when mapping out the original number clusters?
I haven't seen any official documents that specifically discuss Maryland's original numbering pattern. The MD numbers are just out there in the documents and on the maps, on which the clustering patterns appear. Would love to find some documents about exactly how the numbers were originally assigned, including why 7-10 was left out. The answers are probably buried in old minutes of the SRC meetings, which are mentioned in lists of later route downloads/decommissionings.
MD 9 was almost used by SHA for part of decommissioned US 140 northwest of Baltimore in 1979, before deciding to just use MD 140. I get MD 7's relative importance as the old US 40, same with MD 10 as an expressway... but I can't figure out why they assigned MD 8 where they did.
7-10 were reserved for when Maryland takes over Delaware :bigass:
Hey, that's as good a theory as any.
PS: have you seen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_U.S._Roads/Maryland/All-time_list? There are some routes I found that aren't on your site.
Quote from: ftballfan on June 01, 2012, 11:23:06 AM
M-3 ends where M-29 begins and vice versa in Chesterfield Township, northeast of Detroit.
There's a similar spot in the U.P., where M-38 and M-64 intersect with US 45 in Ontonagon. http://goo.gl/maps/3YEXT
In Sheboygan, WI, WI 23,28 and 42 all end at the same intersection. (Erie and 14th)
Not sure this has been covered... but in California - State 18 ends at State 138 and State 138 ends at State 18.
128 ends at 127 in both Massachusetts and Maine.
Going north on I-89 in Vermont, you will cross VT 66, 65, 64, 63, and 62 in that order.
MA 108, MA 110, and MA 113 are very close to each other. So are CT 108, CT 110, and CT 113.
NH 16 begins at US 1 and has concurrency with US 4, NH 9, and NH 25. The first five square numbers are all there.
Quote from: MDRoads on January 26, 2014, 04:29:39 PM
Quote from: TheOneKEA on January 26, 2014, 11:44:26 AM
I always wondered about this! Do you know of any books or other sources that explain why the SRC skipped 7 through 10 when mapping out the original number clusters?
I haven't seen any official documents that specifically discuss Maryland's original numbering pattern. The MD numbers are just out there in the documents and on the maps, on which the clustering patterns appear. Would love to find some documents about exactly how the numbers were originally assigned, including why 7-10 was left out. The answers are probably buried in old minutes of the SRC meetings, which are mentioned in lists of later route downloads/decommissionings.
MD 9 was almost used by SHA for part of decommissioned US 140 northwest of Baltimore in 1979, before deciding to just use MD 140. I get MD 7's relative importance as the old US 40, same with MD 10 as an expressway... but I can't figure out why they assigned MD 8 where they did.
MD 8 never made much sense to me either. Considering the fragmentary nature of the existing system as well as the hole in the number clusters at 321-327, it does stand out as a very unusual use of a single digit route number.
Another oddity is MD 6. It could easily be county-maintained in places and a three digit route number in others.
Finally, I would love to know why US 40's original routings northeast of Baltimore deserved a single digit route number but the same US highway's routings west of Baltimore received a three digit route number instead.
Quote from: TheOneKEA on January 26, 2014, 09:53:55 PM
MD 8 never made much sense to me either. Considering the fragmentary nature of the existing system as well as the hole in the number clusters at 321-327, it does stand out as a very unusual use of a single digit route number.
Another oddity is MD 6. It could easily be county-maintained in places and a three digit route number in others.
Finally, I would love to know why US 40's original routings northeast of Baltimore deserved a single digit route number but the same US highway's routings west of Baltimore received a three digit route number instead.
Most major state routes have at least one number associated with its old sections, usually in the >600 range. When SRC pulled a low number, it usually was in a different county's cluster for use elsewhere in the state. Some routes had different numbers for different sections, like MD 144 and 7. Old parts of MD 2 became 648 (Baltimore-Annapolis), 775 in southern Anne Arundel Co., and 765 down in Calvert Co.
Would have thought maybe the reason for MD 7 being used was it was so soon thereafter when Pulaski Hwy was completed (~1938), but old 2 became MD 648 at around the same time to make way for Ritchie Hwy.
MD 6, while twisting and meandering, is quite long for MD, over 45 miles. In the 1930s-40s, most of the other low-numbered routes were the same way. A major issue in the pre-Interstate era was the primary roads were the same width/quality as the over-numerous secondary roads, which back then covered the state in almost Kentuckian thickness; were MD the size of KY, we'd need 4-digit numbers too.
Quote from: MDRoads on January 27, 2014, 09:23:29 PM
Most major state routes have at least one number associated with its old sections, usually in the >600 range. When SRC pulled a low number, it usually was in a different county's cluster for use elsewhere in the state. Some routes had different numbers for different sections, like MD 144 and 7. Old parts of MD 2 became 648 (Baltimore-Annapolis), 775 in southern Anne Arundel Co., and 765 down in Calvert Co.
Is that why MD 135 took over parts of MD 38 and all of MD 41 instead of using one of the two digit numbers? 135 is nominally part of the Baltimore County route cluster but it is in Garrett County instead.
MD 17 stands out too as a number out of place. I'd love to know if the predecessor to VDOT really was lobbying for US 17 to be extended north, and if the SRC wanted US 17 too.
Quote
Would have thought maybe the reason for MD 7 being used was it was so soon thereafter when Pulaski Hwy was completed (~1938), but old 2 became MD 648 at around the same time to make way for Ritchie Hwy.
MD 6, while twisting and meandering, is quite long for MD, over 45 miles. In the 1930s-40s, most of the other low-numbered routes were the same way. A major issue in the pre-Interstate era was the primary roads were the same width/quality as the over-numerous secondary roads, which back then covered the state in almost Kentuckian thickness; were MD the size of KY, we'd need 4-digit numbers too.
Was the length of the state-maintained secondary road a factor in the 1956 downsizing?
Quote from: 1 on January 26, 2014, 07:11:31 PM
128 ends at 127 in both Massachusetts and Maine.
In Massachusetts, 128 both intersects with 127 in Gloucester (Grant Circle) and then terminates at 127 in Rockport (Eastern Avenue). However, if you're in a hurry, be sure to consult a map before you decide to take 127 between the two points.
Quote from: roadman on January 29, 2014, 06:34:09 PM
Quote from: 1 on January 26, 2014, 07:11:31 PM
128 ends at 127 in both Massachusetts and Maine.
In Massachusetts, 128 both intersects with 127 in Gloucester (Grant Circle) and then terminates at 127 in Rockport (Eastern Avenue). However, if you're in a hurry, be sure to consult a map before you decide to take 127 between the two points.
I believe it is this segment of 127 which has some 1950s oval-button shields on it.
QuoteMD 17 stands out too as a number out of place. I'd love to know if the predecessor to VDOT really was lobbying for US 17 to be extended north, and if the SRC wanted US 17 too
Although we (myself and mapmikey) haven't been able to find proof in the CTB minutes archive, it's theoretically possible that such a US extension was briefly considered in the early 1940s.
MD 17 used to be MD 33 (and vice versa...both confirmed on my 1932 MD map). Per MDRoads, the two were swapped to their current corridors in 1940, which makes sense as that's the same year that the former north leg of VA 234 (more or less along today's VA 287) was renumbered as a north leg of VA 17 (CTB minutes put this as October 1940). Prior to this, VA 17 ended at US 15/29 Opal, but was extended north along then-US 15 to Middleburg (roughly today's US 17/VA 245/SR 626), plus the segment north of Purcellville into MD mentioned above. There was a gap in VA 17 at this time, from Middleburg to just south of Purcellville.
This scenario didn't last long. In 1944, VA 17 was rerouted to continue to Winchester along what became US 17 around 1965, and old VA 17 north of Purcellville became VA 287.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 29, 2014, 06:46:41 PM
Quote from: roadman on January 29, 2014, 06:34:09 PM
Quote from: 1 on January 26, 2014, 07:11:31 PM
128 ends at 127 in both Massachusetts and Maine.
In Massachusetts, 128 both intersects with 127 in Gloucester (Grant Circle) and then terminates at 127 in Rockport (Eastern Avenue). However, if you're in a hurry, be sure to consult a map before you decide to take 127 between the two points.
I believe it is this segment of 127 which has some 1950s oval-button shields on it.
Tis.
Quote from: froggie on January 29, 2014, 07:52:27 PM
QuoteMD 17 stands out too as a number out of place. I'd love to know if the predecessor to VDOT really was lobbying for US 17 to be extended north, and if the SRC wanted US 17 too
Although we (myself and mapmikey) haven't been able to find proof in the CTB minutes archive, it's theoretically possible that such a US extension was briefly considered in the early 1940s.
Even though no CTB documentation we've seen indicates it for US 17 back in the 1930s-40s, my sense is that all original state route extensions were considered potential extensions (except maybe VA 121) of their US route counterparts. I could even argue the weird VA 29 was a potential US 29 ALT.
Note that in the 1933 route log US routes with state route extensions were considered one route...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vahighways.com%2Froute-log%2FVDOT%2520logs%2F33_15-26.jpg&hash=a7dc6886ac3e371c31775ace230d9c595d0fa5f4)
Mapmikey
Quote from: roadman on January 29, 2014, 06:34:09 PM
Quote from: 1 on January 26, 2014, 07:11:31 PM
128 ends at 127 in both Massachusetts and Maine.
In Massachusetts, 128 both intersects with 127 in Gloucester (Grant Circle) and then terminates at 127 in Rockport (Eastern Avenue). However, if you're in a hurry, be sure to consult a map before you decide to take 127 between the two points.
Actually, 128 terminates at 127
A (Bass Ave.) in Gloucester. One needs to ride MA 127 (Eastern Ave.) or MA 127A (Bass Ave. & Thatcher Rd.) for just over a mile before one crosses into Rockport.
128's Northern/Eastern terminus in Gloucester (http://goo.gl/maps/f8rzu)
CT-78, Pretty much the only part of it that's actually in CT is the western terminus on/off ramps.
Louisiana oddities not mentioned thus far:
* LA 182 is the second-longest state highway behind LA 1, having been made from old parts of US 167 and US 90.
* LA 27 has a flipped-J shape.
* LA 1's northern terminus is just barely south of the TX-AR-LA corner.
* LA 63 and US 63 are completely different routes on opposite ends of the state.
Also one for Texas: Due to the proximity of FM 105 to TX 105 (a major route from Beaumont to Conroe), there is a sign on I-10 WB near the FM 105 junction directing TX 105 travelers.
Quote from: jbnv on February 19, 2014, 11:22:21 PM
Louisiana oddities not mentioned thus far:
* LA 182 is the second-longest state highway behind LA 1, having been made from old parts of US 167 and US 90.
* LA 27 has a flipped-J shape.
* LA 1's northern terminus is just barely south of the TX-AR-LA corner.
* LA 63 and US 63 are completely different routes on opposite ends of the state.
Also one for Texas: Due to the proximity of FM 105 to TX 105 (a major route from Beaumont to Conroe), there is a sign on I-10 WB near the FM 105 junction directing TX 105 travelers.
LA 182 is fourth longest. LA 10 and LA 15 have it beat.
ME103 ends at ME236, and ME236 ends at ME103.
Quote from: sdmichael on January 26, 2014, 07:04:56 PM
Not sure this has been covered... but in California - State 18 ends at State 138 and State 138 ends at State 18.
Also CA 18 is a question mark-shaped route.
Quote from: national highway 1 on February 22, 2014, 09:51:28 PM
Also CA 18 is a question mark-shaped route.
Wrong.
It's missing a dot. :bigass:
Quote from: sammi on February 22, 2014, 09:54:47 PM
Quote from: national highway 1 on February 22, 2014, 09:51:28 PM
Also CA 18 is a question mark-shaped route.
Wrong.
It's missing a dot. :bigass:
And you just answered my question before I could even ask it.
We have something similar in Minnesota where MN 27 West ends at MN 28, and MN 28 East ends *ON* MN 27 (the two run concurrent for the last 12 miles into Little Falls).
Quote from: froggie on February 23, 2014, 08:26:01 AM
We have something similar in Minnesota where MN 27 West ends at MN 28, and MN 28 East ends *ON* MN 27 (the two run concurrent for the last 12 miles into Little Falls).
Also, WV 25 and WV 62.
OH 47, OH 98, OH 423 all end without overlapping each other at the same 3-way intersection in Waldo.
I may have mentioned this before.
And ME175 (http://cmap.m-plex.com/hb/hwymap.php?r=me.me175) is shaped like, well... ME175.
Quote from: Rupertus on January 26, 2014, 06:29:28 PM
Quote from: ftballfan on June 01, 2012, 11:23:06 AM
M-3 ends where M-29 begins and vice versa in Chesterfield Township, northeast of Detroit.
There's a similar spot in the U.P., where M-38 and M-64 intersect with US 45 in Ontonagon. http://goo.gl/maps/3YEXT
Similarly, OK-39 and OK-56, east of Konawa.