I live in Florida, and our RTOR laws allow for LTOR in areas where two one way streets intersecting unless the NO TURN ON RED sign appears like right turns.
A perfect example would be on US 17 in Punta Gorda, FL at its southern terminus with US 41. Both US 17 and US 41 are both one way pairs at their junction. Southbound US 17 actually crosses NB US 41 two blocks before it finally ends at US 41 SB. You can turn left from US 17 being its one way onto SB US 41 that is also a one way to the left after stop during the red orientation.
I know in my former state of New Jersey, that is not allowed. First of all there are not many one way streets intersection each other. Second, most of New Jersey is densely populated. Plus, I do not think it ever crossed peoples minds just like the original left turn arrows that now serve as protected left turns were originally used to denote the only turns allowed at the intersection when it was one way leftward and no turns to the right.
How many other states allow the LTOR for the record?
I believe Ohio does (for circumstances like you provided).
Pretty sure I've been able to in Richmond and Petersburg.
I'm thinkin' California was maybe the first to enact this law, before 1970, Since a right turn on red was a "California right turn", this makes sense. Colorado allows it - lots of opportunities in downtown Denver.
A left turn on red from a two-way onto a one-way is more interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_turn_on_red#Left_turn_on_red
I know Michigan allows LTOR from one-way and two-way streets onto a one-way street. Illinois, IIRC, is just for a one-way to a one-way.
Upstate NY allows LTOR in this situation as well I believe.
Quote from: NE2 on February 11, 2012, 02:01:20 PM
A left turn on red from a two-way onto a one-way is more interesting.
As the Wikipedia article says, Washington allows LTOR onto a one-way street from both a one-way street and a two-way street. In practice though, I think most drivers are unaware that the latter maneuver is legal.
Illinois and Kansas: Legal in both.
Both MA & PA allow LTOR for 2 intersecting one-way streets; although not everybody knows it. This gets particularly annoying at the mezzanine ramps along the I-476/US 1 interchange in Marple Twp (Delaware County) PA. Even with a small channelized left-lane-turn ramp, hardly anybody moves when the light is red (there are NO No Turn On Red signs).
Quote from: deanej on February 11, 2012, 02:24:47 PM
Upstate NY allows LTOR in this situation as well I believe.
Yes indeed. They are not permitted in the City of New York. Right turn on red is also prohibited in the City of New York unless a sign allows it, and from my long ago travels, their ain't many!
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on February 11, 2012, 12:21:08 PM
I believe Ohio does (for circumstances like you provided).
Digest of Ohio Motor Vehicle Laws says so.
Indeed Ohio does allow it. In Akron there are several places where if you are the lead car and don't make your left on red when it's safe to do so, you will likely hear a reminder from behind you even. Akron posts No Turn On Red signs in certain places where there is no right turn possible, which undoubtedly baffles those unfamiliar with left on red. For example, the end of one-way Cedar St. at one-way Broadway St. (http://g.co/maps/deq7e) involves Cedar defaulting onto Broadway as a quadruple left-turn lane onto Broadway's four lanes. Free left-on-red for all would be mayhem (and very few are turning from the far left lane), so No Turn On Red is posted at the left turn only situation. Further south on Broadway St. is a similar pair of signs (http://g.co/maps/8nwh8) for one-way South St., thanks to the intertwined expressway interchange. It is probably very odd for some folks not familiar with left on red to see No Right Turn and No Turn On Red posted together.
A better question would be: is there anywhere in the US outside of NYC where LTOR is not allowed?
Quote from: realjd on February 11, 2012, 10:21:24 PM
A better question would be: is there anywhere in the US outside of NYC where LTOR is not allowed?
According to Wikipedia, yes, somewhere between 6 and 8 states (the numbers don't add up).
Quote from: PurdueBill on February 11, 2012, 10:18:46 PM
For example, the end of one-way Cedar St. at one-way Broadway St. (http://g.co/maps/deq7e) involves Cedar defaulting onto Broadway as a quadruple left-turn lane onto Broadway's four lanes. Free left-on-red for all would be mayhem (and very few are turning from the far left lane), so No Turn On Red is posted at the left turn only situation.
I would expect "no turn on red except curb lane" which seems to be unnecessarily posted at every instance of a multi-lane right turn, considering right (or left) turns on red can only legally be made from the right- (or left-) most lane anyway.
Quote from: realjd on February 11, 2012, 10:21:24 PM
A better question would be: is there anywhere in the US outside of NYC where LTOR is not allowed?
Missouri, although I think there were a couple intersections in St. Joesph with "Left Turn on red after stop" signs or something similar.
Quote from: vtk on February 11, 2012, 11:53:39 PM
I would expect "no turn on red except curb lane" which seems to be unnecessarily posted at every instance of a multi-lane right turn, considering right (or left) turns on red can only legally be made from the right- (or left-) most lane anyway.
It might be unnecessary where you are, but in Florida you can turn on red from any lane. (You can also turn on a red arrow.)
Quote from: realjd on February 11, 2012, 10:21:24 PM
A better question would be: is there anywhere in the US outside of NYC where LTOR is not allowed?
Obviously, living in New Jersey all my life has made me unaware of many practices that many states use. For example, I thought nationwide that the driving age is 17, but later found out that New Jersey is one of few states that have that rule. Many are 16, with NYC being 18 and from what I heard if you come from a state that has a lower age and drive in the 5 boroughs; NYPD will not honor the license either.
Anyway, I did not even realize that many states do have LTOR. I did learn, also, that many are unaware that it exists in their state. Probably, many who do know of it, do not encounter one way to one way on a regular basis and when they do, they forget about it.
Massachusetts allows it. There is an intersection I frequent that you can make a left on red, at the intersection of Old Colony and Main Street in Hyannis. West of The intersection main street is 1 way, east of the intersection main street is 2 way.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=main+street+hyannis&hl=en&ll=41.65431,-70.280468&spn=0.000676,0.001125&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=46.409192,73.740234&hnear=Main+St,+Barnstable,+Massachusetts+02601&t=h&z=20
Quote from: vtk on February 11, 2012, 11:53:39 PM
Quote from: PurdueBill on February 11, 2012, 10:18:46 PM
For example, the end of one-way Cedar St. at one-way Broadway St. (http://g.co/maps/deq7e) involves Cedar defaulting onto Broadway as a quadruple left-turn lane onto Broadway's four lanes. Free left-on-red for all would be mayhem (and very few are turning from the far left lane), so No Turn On Red is posted at the left turn only situation.
I would expect "no turn on red except curb lane" which seems to be unnecessarily posted at every instance of a multi-lane right turn, considering right (or left) turns on red can only legally be made from the right- (or left-) most lane anyway.
Because the far-left lane on Cedar would turn left into the left-turn lane for Exchange off of Broadway, heading back the opposite direction of Cedar, few actually turn left from the left lane of Cedar. Most use the right two lanes to go left on Broadway, then right on Exchange to continue heading east.
"No turn on red except curb lane" is common but fortunately not always posted at right-on-red locations. The Ohio Digest of Motor Vehicle laws mentions left on red being legal from the extreme left lane to the extreme left lane, but makes no mention of such a restriction for right on red. Is that buried in the law but not shared in the digest?
Quote from: realjd on February 11, 2012, 10:21:24 PM
A better question would be: is there anywhere in the US outside of NYC where LTOR is not allowed?
Off the top of my head I know DC and North Carolina don't allow it.
In practice I've found few people know it's allowed anywhere. I hate being stuck behind someone who won't do it when it's OK.
Quote from: deanej on February 11, 2012, 02:24:47 PM
Upstate NY allows LTOR in this situation as well I believe.
Everywhere in New York State, actually, including NYC where specifically permitted by signs. (Turns on red in either direction are prohibited citywide, but in accordance with this law, posted exceptions can be found for both.)
I have a handy iPhone app called State Lines, which summarizes state laws of various kinds, including this one.
Quote from: realjd on February 11, 2012, 10:21:24 PM
A better question would be: is there anywhere in the US outside of NYC where LTOR is not allowed?
Yes: any other city in New York with a population of one million or greater. The same is true of right turns, of course, and it is this law that causes the blanket prohibition in NYC. There is, of course, no other city in the state currently meeting that population cutoff, but if Buffalo and Erie County were to somehow merge, for example, the law would then apply there as well. Such a city is then empowered to exclude itself from the law by local ordinance, but it hasn't happened yet, with NYC opting instead for posting specific exceptions.
Interestingly, the Town of Hempstead has about 3/4 million population, and might some day pass the million mark, but as it is not a city this law wouldn't apply. Neither would it apply in Staten Island were they to secede from the city, and it's in this borough, naturally, where most of the posted exceptions are found.
(See Title 7, Article 24, Section 1111 of the Vehicle & Traffic Code for the text.)
Can't say I've ever made a left on red. Then again, how often do I find myself looking to make a left at a light from one one way street onto another outside of New York City? Very rare indeed.
Were I to find myself in such a circumstance I would do it if I had enough of a sight line to safely do so, without worrying about what the local law might actually be (it's usually legal).
Similarly, I will make a right on a red arrow if I can do so safely, regardless of local law (again, usually legal).
Except if there is a red light camera.... then I'm waiting for the light to turn green no matter what. Not interested in testing whether the camera is properly programmed.
Arkansas does, to my knowledge, but I can't think of many intersections where it would apply.
Repost: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_turn_on_red#Left_turn_on_red
Please do not post anything contained in that article. Tangents (such as curb lane turns) may continue.
Quote from: Steve on February 12, 2012, 10:36:30 PM
Please do not post anything contained in that article.
Quoteif
well, shit, I'm surely gonna go to Hell now.
Karma: -2, obvious/uninspired
Quote from: Steve on February 12, 2012, 10:36:30 PM
Repost: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_turn_on_red#Left_turn_on_red
Unless I'm totally out of it, that adds up to 48 states.
Quote from: NE2 on February 13, 2012, 12:06:17 AM
Quote from: Steve on February 12, 2012, 10:36:30 PM
Repost: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_turn_on_red#Left_turn_on_red
Unless I'm totally out of it, that adds up to 48 states.
for RTOR or LTOR? I count 44 states that allow LTOR
Wisconsin, of course, allows left-turn-on-red between two one-way streets, unless prohibited by a sign. Also, there are several signalized intersections here in the Appleton area with two right-turn lanes and in those instances, signs saying "NO TURN ON RED FROM LEFT LANE" are posted. Examples here include at the recently updated US 41/College Ave (WI 125) interchange (off ramps) and at Oneida St/Lawrence St in downtown Appleton. (Compliance at those intersections has been less than 100%, though, from what I have seen while out driving around. :-o )
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on February 13, 2012, 11:32:56 AM
Wisconsin, of course, allows left-turn-on-red between two one-way streets, unless prohibited by a sign. Also, there are several signalized intersections here in the Appleton area with two right-turn lanes and in those instances, signs saying "NO TURN ON RED FROM LEFT LANE" are posted. Examples here include at the recently updated US 41/College Ave (WI 125) interchange (off ramps) and at Oneida St/Lawrence St in downtown Appleton. (Compliance at those intersections has been less than 100%, though, from what I have seen while out driving around. :-o )
Mike
Virginia is religious about prohibiting right on red from any lane but the curb lane and always posts a sign. I've noticed that compliance tends to be better during the day than at night, which I attribute to the fact that at many (perhaps most) intersections with two right-turn lanes the "No Turn on Red This Lane" sign–or another sign to the same effect (VDOT is quite inconsistent on the wording of this notice) is one of those dopey small signs located across the intersection next to the signal head, i.e., too small for many people to see or read in the dark. Just about everyone who lives in Virginia is used to VDOT's insistence on this rule and so we seldom use any right-turn lane other than the curb lane if the light is red, but it can be amusing to see out-of-staters who think they have this great way to jump past everyone by using the other turn lane and then they get to the stop bar and see the sign prohibiting the turn on red and then they panic and try to shove over into the other lane.....
Anyway, to get this back on topic, what's odd is that I know of a couple of intersections (very few, though!) in Virginia where there are two left-turn lanes from a one-way street onto another one-way street, yet NONE of those intersections has a "No Turn on Red This Lane" or "Left Turn on Red from Curb Lane Only" sign. I've never been able to find any Virginia statute that prohibits turns on red from any lane other than the curb lane, so I assume the right-on-red restriction is a VDOT thing rather than a matter of state law. I therefore conclude that the omission of the sign in the left-on-red situation, especially when VDOT is so religious about posting that sign for right turns, means that it's OK in the left-on-red scenario.
Speaking of signs, how many of you have seen signs specifically reminding drivers that left on red is allowed? There used to be a sign that said "Left Turn on Red After Stop" at the corner of West and Main Streets in Fairfax, Virginia (left turn from southbound West onto eastbound Main), but it was removed when they reconfigured the streets to make them two-way. That's the only one I can think of off the top of my head. While the purist in me dislikes the sign because it shouldn't be necessary, the impatient driver in me likes it because so many people don't know this maneuver is legal.
On the other hand, I can readily think of at least one "No Turn on Red (When Pedestrians Are Present)" sign that can only refer to a left on red. See Street View image here–the left lane of one-way Henry Street in Alexandria, VA, is left-only onto one-way Franklin Street and has a "No Turn on Red" sign, while the right lane is right-only onto a two-way portion of Franklin and has an identical sign. (http://g.co/maps/g6ztd)
Edited to add: The place where I most regularly encountered situations where left on red would have been practical was downtown Durham, North Carolina, when I attended Duke in the mid-1990s. Downtown was full of one-way streets with traffic lights, but North Carolina state law prohibited left on red (I believe it still does) and it made it absolutely maddening to drive around that area because you'd just have to sit and wait for no reason. I might have been known to violate that law on occasion.....
Still no left turn on red in NC:
http://www.ncdot.gov/travel/roadrules/
In some ways this state is so backwards it isn't funny.
Quote from: US71 on February 13, 2012, 10:21:48 AM
Quote from: NE2 on February 13, 2012, 12:06:17 AM
Quote from: Steve on February 12, 2012, 10:36:30 PM
Repost: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_turn_on_red#Left_turn_on_red
Unless I'm totally out of it, that adds up to 48 states.
for RTOR or LTOR? I count 44 states that allow LTOR
QuoteIn U.S., 37 states and Puerto Rico allow left turns on red only if both the origin and destination streets are one way. See South Carolina law [11] Section 56-5-970 C3, for example. Five other states, namely Alaska, Idaho, Michigan, Oregon and Washington, allow left turns on red onto a one-way street even from a two-way street.
That's 42 that allow LTOR (37 plus 5). Then the article lists six states plus D.C. and Guam that ban LTOR. 42 + 6 = 48, leading to NE2's confusion.
(Unless you can explain to me how you count 44, which would account for the two missing states.)
Well, I see two possibilities:
1) someone screwed up writing the Wiki article
2) there are two states whose laws do not explicitly address the matter
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 13, 2012, 03:11:25 PM
Anyway, to get this back on topic, what's odd is that I know of a couple of intersections (very few, though!) in Virginia where there are two left-turn lanes from a one-way street onto another one-way street, yet NONE of those intersections has a "No Turn on Red This Lane" or "Left Turn on Red from Curb Lane Only" sign.
Like your example, there are only a couple of those down here too. One is an off-ramp from the East-West Expressway which allows LTOR from both lanes. The other was on Lake Underhill NB at South Street, which now has a "No Turn on Red" sign, and I'd like to think I had something to do with the addition of that sign ;)
[fixed typo]
Nevada allows a left turn on red from one way to another one way, following all applicable rules similar to the right on red law. There's only a few places where it even comes up though. The move must be done from the curb lane, similar to right on red.
Quote from: florida on March 19, 2012, 01:58:50 AM
which now has a "No Turn on Left" sign, and I'd like to think I had something to do with the addition of that sign ;)
Is there an amusing anecdote to go with that, or did you just pester the appropriate agancy until a sign went up? And what's with the awkward wording?
Quote from: roadfro on March 19, 2012, 03:44:42 AMThe move must be done from the curb lane, similar to right on red.
what about multiple lanes which are explicitly left-turn only? can the LTOR be made from a non-curb lane then? (is this even something which exist in reality?)
here in California, one may make RTOR from any lane so long as all lanes to the right are right-turn-only. I am pretty sure the law is the same for LTOR in the one-way situation, but I do not know of any actual examples.
from Wikipedia:
QuoteFive other states, namely Alaska, Idaho, Michigan, Oregon and Washington, allow left turns on red onto a one-way street even from a two-way street. In Washington, freeway on-ramps are considered one-way streets for the purposes of the left turn on red law.
now this I did not know. so if I am on the surface street at a diamond interchange, sitting at the red light and wanting to turn left to enter the freeway, I can just plain go ahead and do so? I don't think I've ever seen anyone do this in practice.
or maybe I have, and I assumed that they were violating the law.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 19, 2012, 11:28:17 AM
now this I did not know. so if I am on the surface street at a diamond interchange, sitting at the red light and wanting to turn left to enter the freeway, I can just plain go ahead and do so? I don't think I've ever seen anyone do this in practice.
or maybe I have, and I assumed that they were violating the law.
I think most people are unaware. This must be the case in Michigan, since "NO TURN ON RED" signs are sometimes installed at freeway ramps (http://maps.google.com/maps?daddr=42.309815,-85.252404&hl=en&ll=42.29849,-85.179861&spn=0.000002,0.000943&sll=42.309784,-85.252426&sspn=0.011552,0.015085&t=h&mra=mift&mrsp=1&sz=16&z=20&layer=c&cbll=42.298494,-85.179728&panoid=CHSQC-DxK3orHghYKGkPWA&cbp=12,99.4,,0,9.22). (In this particular instance, the exit and entrance ramps are offset, but within the parameters of being one intersection for purposes of traffic control.) It's befuddled me in the instances where MDOT uses a protected-only left-turn cycle at a one-way entrance ramp yet omits a "NO TURN ON RED," since it would be legal to turn on red in those instances.
I assume U-turn on red is only legal in those 5 states, and only when the intersecting road is one-way to the left?
Quote from: vtk on March 19, 2012, 07:35:28 AM
Quote from: florida on March 19, 2012, 01:58:50 AM
which now has a "No Turn on Left" sign, and I'd like to think I had something to do with the addition of that sign ;)
Is there an amusing anecdote to go with that, or did you just pester the appropriate agancy until a sign went up? And what's with the awkward wording?
I kept making continuous left turns on red at that certain intersection and all of a sudden the sign appeared on the signal's mast arm one day.
Quote from: florida on March 19, 2012, 03:40:01 PM
Quote from: vtk on March 19, 2012, 07:35:28 AM
Quote from: florida on March 19, 2012, 01:58:50 AM
which now has a "No Turn on Left" sign, and I'd like to think I had something to do with the addition of that sign ;)
Is there an amusing anecdote to go with that, or did you just pester the appropriate agancy until a sign went up? And what's with the awkward wording?
I kept making continuous left turns on red at that certain intersection and all of a sudden the sign appeared on the signal's mast arm one day.
I think he was busting your chops for the typo: "No Turn on Left."
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 19, 2012, 11:28:17 AM
Quote from: roadfro on March 19, 2012, 03:44:42 AMThe move must be done from the curb lane, similar to right on red.
what about multiple lanes which are explicitly left-turn only? can the LTOR be made from a non-curb lane then? (is this even something which exist in reality?)
....
I can think of at least one spot (well, really four spots, but all at the same interchange) where there are two left-turn lanes from a one-way street into another one-way street here in Virginia–the interchange between I-395 and Seminary Road. I suppose in this case the second lane from the left is an optional left turn, i.e., "left or straight." There is no sign anywhere at that intersection prohibiting the left on red from the second lane, and I've made precisely that move quite a few times when I've been going from southbound I-395 to eastbound Seminary (the reason is that after you make that particular left, if you go from the curb lane you turn into another left-only lane, but I want to go straight after I turn, so I use the other lane). There's never been a cop around so I don't know the legality of it, but off the top of my head I can readily think of an intersection within a mile of my house where a "right or straight" lane has a "No Turn on Red This Lane" sign (or similar). VDOT is absolutely religious about posting that sign whenever there is more than one lane allowing RIGHT on red. But I've never seen it for LEFT on red. I'm sure it's a state-specific issue and nobody can give an absolute answer of "it's never OK" or "it's always OK."
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 19, 2012, 04:17:39 PM
Quote from: florida on March 19, 2012, 03:40:01 PM
Quote from: vtk on March 19, 2012, 07:35:28 AM
Quote from: florida on March 19, 2012, 01:58:50 AM
which now has a "No Turn on Left" sign, and I'd like to think I had something to do with the addition of that sign ;)
Is there an amusing anecdote to go with that, or did you just pester the appropriate agancy until a sign went up? And what's with the awkward wording?
I kept making continuous left turns on red at that certain intersection and all of a sudden the sign appeared on the signal's mast arm one day.
I think he was busting your chops for the typo: "No Turn on Left."
I've completely overlooked that two times today. It's fixed to say red instead of left.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 19, 2012, 11:28:17 AM
Quote from: roadfro on March 19, 2012, 03:44:42 AMThe move must be done from the curb lane, similar to right on red.
what about multiple lanes which are explicitly left-turn only? can the LTOR be made from a non-curb lane then? (is this even something which exist in reality?)
This can be done (one way to one way) at Center Street and Jefferson Street here in Joliet, IL. There are two left turn lanes, and no signs prohibiting a turn on red. Thus, both lanes may turn left on red.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 19, 2012, 04:17:39 PM
I can think of at least one spot (well, really four spots, but all at the same interchange) where there are two left-turn lanes from a one-way street into another one-way street here in Virginia–the interchange between I-395 and Seminary Road. I suppose in this case the second lane from the left is an optional left turn, i.e., "left or straight." There is no sign anywhere at that intersection prohibiting the left on red from the second lane, and I've made precisely that move quite a few times when I've been going from southbound I-395 to eastbound Seminary (the reason is that after you make that particular left, if you go from the curb lane you turn into another left-only lane, but I want to go straight after I turn, so I use the other lane). There's never been a cop around so I don't know the legality of it, but off the top of my head I can readily think of an intersection within a mile of my house where a "right or straight" lane has a "No Turn on Red This Lane" sign (or similar). VDOT is absolutely religious about posting that sign whenever there is more than one lane allowing RIGHT on red. But I've never seen it for LEFT on red. I'm sure it's a state-specific issue and nobody can give an absolute answer of "it's never OK" or "it's always OK."
The Cedar/Broadway intersection in Akron I mentioned above fits that description, being at a T-junction of two one-way streets, four lanes each; Cedar defaults to a quadruple left turn lane onto Broadway. Akron has a (very, very old and weathered) No Turn On Red sign there, with no mention of inner curb lane or not. I looked in the Ohio laws and only found explicit mention of only curb lane to curb lane RIGHT turns on red being permissible, but no such language for left on red, which the law does explicitly allow in general from one-way to one-way. Unless they buried it somewhere completely disconnected in the law or I missed it, it seems that if the sign weren't there, left turns on red would be permissible from any of the four lanes (into the corresponding lane on the new street, as guided by the dotted lane markings). Whether law enforcement would actually be aware of that, or even go after a left on red from a non-left-curb lane without a sign present in the first place, is debatable. Left on red is allowed and does happen enough around here that the cops would probably just roll with it.
Done it plenty of times in New Orleans and Hammond, La.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 19, 2012, 11:28:17 AM
Quote from: roadfro on March 19, 2012, 03:44:42 AMThe move must be done from the curb lane, similar to right on red.
what about multiple lanes which are explicitly left-turn only? can the LTOR be made from a non-curb lane then? (is this even something which exist in reality?)
I don't know of any examples of multiple left turn lanes from a one-way to another one-way in Nevada.
In fact, the only for-sure example where the one way to one way left even applies is in downtown Reno on 1st St turning left onto Center St. 1st is pretty minor and only has one left turn lane and one through lane.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure that if a multiple left one-way to one-way situation did exist, only the curb lane could perform the movement on a red signal...
Quote from: Brandon on March 19, 2012, 07:31:59 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 19, 2012, 11:28:17 AM
Quote from: roadfro on March 19, 2012, 03:44:42 AMThe move must be done from the curb lane, similar to right on red.
what about multiple lanes which are explicitly left-turn only? can the LTOR be made from a non-curb lane then? (is this even something which exist in reality?)
This can be done (one way to one way) at Center Street and Jefferson Street here in Joliet, IL. There are two left turn lanes, and no signs prohibiting a turn on red. Thus, both lanes may turn left on red.
Are you sure? I seem to recall there being a statewide law that says LTOR from curb lane only. No time to look it up right now, though.
OK, after having looked up the laws, I have determined that neither Kansas nor Illinois specifies curb-lane only for RTOR or LTOR. I don't know what I was thinking. So I guess you would be good in Joliet, and I would be good in Wichita. Good to know, as I often change lanes specifically to be able to turn on red, even if I'll need to get into the other one after completing the turn.
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2012, 11:26:11 AM
Quote from: Brandon on March 19, 2012, 07:31:59 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 19, 2012, 11:28:17 AM
Quote from: roadfro on March 19, 2012, 03:44:42 AMThe move must be done from the curb lane, similar to right on red.
what about multiple lanes which are explicitly left-turn only? can the LTOR be made from a non-curb lane then? (is this even something which exist in reality?)
This can be done (one way to one way) at Center Street and Jefferson Street here in Joliet, IL. There are two left turn lanes, and no signs prohibiting a turn on red. Thus, both lanes may turn left on red.
Are you sure? I seem to recall there being a statewide law that says LTOR from curb lane only. No time to look it up right now, though.
If there is, even the cops ignore it there. Otherwise, I know of no law prohibiting it. I think that's why Illinois always has a "NO TURN ON RED" sign for those intersections with 2 right turn lanes (usually with "EXCEPT RIGHT LANE" below the signs).
Yep, I found that and posted as such. I wonder what I was thinking of.....hmmmmmm
Holy thread revival! I hope it is OK to revive this one but it didn't seem to make sense to start a new thread for my addition.
Visiting my mother in the hospital the other day, I was among a couple people aboard an elevator that was stopping at every floor for no one, without anyone aboard pushing any buttons for any stop before the 7th floor. I remarked that the same people who program the vast majority of Akron traffic lights to change on a set timer day and night, responding to a call or not, must now be in charge of the elevators. A fellow passenger agreed and then remarked that even worse than that, he's seen people all the time make left turns on red at one of the intersections right near the hospital! The horror! He didn't really believe me when I told him that it turns out to actually be legal (heck, there is a sign at another Akron intersection that even says so) but said that legal or not the police mustn't care because he's seen them "ignore" people making the lefts on red.
I thought it was interesting that the guy just brought that up and is sure that it couldn't be legal to make the left on red. I hope I'm not stuck behind him at one of the classic mistimed Akron lights that is bearable only with such a legal turn....
Quote from: PurdueBill on October 21, 2012, 10:49:23 PM
Holy thread revival! I hope it is OK to revive this one but it didn't seem to make sense to start a new thread for my addition.
Visiting my mother in the hospital the other day, I was among a couple people aboard an elevator that was stopping at every floor for no one, without anyone aboard pushing any buttons for any stop before the 7th floor. I remarked that the same people who program the vast majority of Akron traffic lights to change on a set timer day and night, responding to a call or not, must now be in charge of the elevators. A fellow passenger agreed and then remarked that even worse than that, he's seen people all the time make left turns on red at one of the intersections right near the hospital! The horror! He didn't really believe me when I told him that it turns out to actually be legal (heck, there is a sign at another Akron intersection that even says so) but said that legal or not the police mustn't care because he's seen them "ignore" people making the lefts on red.
I thought it was interesting that the guy just brought that up and is sure that it couldn't be legal to make the left on red. I hope I'm not stuck behind him at one of the classic mistimed Akron lights that is bearable only with such a legal turn....
A bit off topic, but was it on a weekend? Some elevators are set up at religious institutions/hospitals that way so you would not be "working" by pressing buttons on the sabbath.
Quote from: Duke87 on February 14, 2012, 07:39:48 PM
Well, I see two possibilities:
2) there are two states whose laws do not explicitly address the matter
I know this is from long ago, but technically states don't need to specifically address LTOR. The basic rule is Stop on Red; don't proceed until the light is green. Written seperately is the exception that vehicles may turn right on red when safe to do so, but that's written into the law. Another exception is vehicles may turn left on red, but that's written into the law as well. And if those exceptions are not there, go back to the basic rule - Stop on Red; don't proceed until the light is green.
Quote from: Big John on October 21, 2012, 11:12:58 PM
Quote from: PurdueBill on October 21, 2012, 10:49:23 PM
Holy thread revival! I hope it is OK to revive this one but it didn't seem to make sense to start a new thread for my addition.
Visiting my mother in the hospital the other day, I was among a couple people aboard an elevator that was stopping at every floor for no one, without anyone aboard pushing any buttons for any stop before the 7th floor. I remarked that the same people who program the vast majority of Akron traffic lights to change on a set timer day and night, responding to a call or not, must now be in charge of the elevators. A fellow passenger agreed and then remarked that even worse than that, he's seen people all the time make left turns on red at one of the intersections right near the hospital! The horror! He didn't really believe me when I told him that it turns out to actually be legal (heck, there is a sign at another Akron intersection that even says so) but said that legal or not the police mustn't care because he's seen them "ignore" people making the lefts on red.
I thought it was interesting that the guy just brought that up and is sure that it couldn't be legal to make the left on red. I hope I'm not stuck behind him at one of the classic mistimed Akron lights that is bearable only with such a legal turn....
A bit off topic, but was it on a weekend? Some elevators are set up at religious institutions/hospitals that way so you would not be "working" by pressing buttons on the sabbath.
A "Sabbath Elevator." They're not confined to religious institutions and hospitals. In New York some apartment buildings and co-ops have them. The other residents generally know which elevator to avoid. Some newer buildings have a more clever twist where the residents for whom this is an issue have to request the service and the management will program the elevator to stop on those floors (presumably not all elevators allow this kind of programming, thus making the "stop on all floors" the default option in other buildings). Apparently this sort of thing is not unique to elevators–some ovens have a "Sabbath mode" to allow for keeping pre-cooked food warm (this because many ovens will now turn off automatically after some preset time for safety reasons), and some refrigerators apparently have a "Sabbath" feature that disables the interior light for the Sabbath so that the observant user cannot be said to have "turned on" the light by opening the door.
But to return to the main topic: The comment from the fellow PurdueBill encountered doesn't surprise me at all. Another forum I visit has a thread about things that are annoying you and I commented one day about getting stuck behind someone who simply refused to go left on red at an intersection where it was allowed. Several people responded along the lines of, "WTF is the matter with you? You can't go left on red." So I linked, and quoted, the relevant statute from the Code of Virginia (since I was driving in Virginia). One of them responded with a comment that was something like, "Yeah, well, I've never heard of that so I'm not about to start doing it." I can certainly understand why she wouldn't just take my word for it, but when I presented the statute..... :banghead:
It actually was on Saturday, but the same elevator later that day (I was there for over 8 hours) and the next day didn't behave that way. Maybe it was acting up, or maybe some kids went pushing call buttons at every floor....I wouldn't doubt it. "Hey kids, go play or something while grandma uses the bedpan/grandpa uses the urinal/etc. etc. etc...." Bang! Elevator buttons pushed everywhere! Or maybe it was at a certain time of known heavy traffic of people needing the feature. We may never know....
I am pleasantly surprised that as many people are aware of the left on red as there are. As my fellow elevator passenger noted, a lot of people do it at the intersection in question, and AKTE even posts No Turn On Red at a few intersections of one-way streets where right turns wouldn't be possible but left on red would be undesirable (due to sight lines, multiple lanes, or the like), acknowledging that without the sign, left on red would be possible.
Well that makes sense then; the Sabbath would have ended at sundown on Saturday, so what you describe fits perfectly.
I wonder if this is the same reason NYC walk signals don't have buttons (well, that and they're all timed).
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 22, 2012, 09:58:41 AM
One of them responded with a comment that was something like, "Yeah, well, I've never heard of that so I'm not about to start doing it." I can certainly understand why she wouldn't just take my word for it, but when I presented the statute..... :banghead:
I like people. Especially those that will hear the correct answer from 10 million people, but they'll listen to the 1 person that has an alternate (wrong) answer. The response from that person will be, "Well, I heard that...".
They also heard the other (correct) answer as well...but choose to ignore it.
It is not too common to find a sign in New York City that indicates to a driver that he or she is allowed to make a left turn on red.
This sign is fairly common to see in Broad Channel, Queens, New York. A couple exist on one segment of Cross Bay Blvd. there, and they are located on the median.
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on March 16, 2013, 09:30:38 PM
It is not too common to find a sign in New York City that indicates to a driver that he or she is allowed to make a left turn on red.
This sign is fairly common to see in Broad Channel, Queens, New York. A couple exist on one segment of Cross Bay Blvd. there, and they are located on the median.
It's not common citywide, but then neither are signs permitting right on red (other than on Staten Island, where they seem to be more the rule than the exception). I'd say the ratio of permitted rights to permitted lefts in NYC is about equal to the ratio of possible rights and lefts on red statewide.
Quote from: empirestate on March 16, 2013, 11:35:55 PM
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on March 16, 2013, 09:30:38 PM
It is not too common to find a sign in New York City that indicates to a driver that he or she is allowed to make a left turn on red.
This sign is fairly common to see in Broad Channel, Queens, New York. A couple exist on one segment of Cross Bay Blvd. there, and they are located on the median.
It's not common citywide, but then neither are signs permitting right on red (other than on Staten Island, where they seem to be more the rule than the exception).
Yes, this is true.
The likely reason is that Staten Island is, by far, the least populated borough in the city of New York. With that said, vehicular traffic is not so bad on the island. I should know, since I lived there for nearly twenty years.
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on March 17, 2013, 12:03:08 AM
Quote from: empirestate on March 16, 2013, 11:35:55 PM
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on March 16, 2013, 09:30:38 PM
It is not too common to find a sign in New York City that indicates to a driver that he or she is allowed to make a left turn on red.
This sign is fairly common to see in Broad Channel, Queens, New York. A couple exist on one segment of Cross Bay Blvd. there, and they are located on the median.
It's not common citywide, but then neither are signs permitting right on red (other than on Staten Island, where they seem to be more the rule than the exception).
Yes, this is true.
The likely reason is that Staten Island is, by far, the least populated borough in the city of New York. With that said, vehicular traffic is not so bad on the island. I should know, since I lived there for nearly twenty years.
I work there on occasion. Keep in mind that, if Staten Island were not a borough of NYC, it wouldn't even be eligible for blanket no-turn-on-red, a privilege reserved for cities of a million or more population. (Richmond County has less than half that, even now at NYC's historical peak population.)