AARoads Forum

For the well-traveled among us, what's your most-liked or most-hated peculiarity as far as traffic control goes? This could mean signals, signage or other guidance. Liking or disliking needn't mean that the practice should be implemented / abolished everywhere.

What immediately comes to my mind:

LIKE:

• Horizontal rather than vertical signals in Albuquerque.
• Texas' frontage road and turnaround system
• The signed-detour system in Penna.
• Lagging-left turns in Tucson
• Flashing green arrow in Montreal
• The truck bypasses at several interchanges on I-5
• Michigan lefts

DISLIKE:

• 
  Lane marking in NY and AL: rather than leaving a gap that shows where the merge ends (NY) or where the turn lane begins (AL) often they just make the lines more dotted. Made for more surprises than I cared for when I was there.
• Lane marking in OR: off the freeways they leave most of the hills and curves in and don't put reflectors on the pavement (or so my experience has been). It's a contrast to California, where they straighten, flatten, reflectorize and more.

I like the internal exit tabs in California, and I also like Arizona's exit tabs (not the Clearview ones)
In Australia I do like the signage style of New South Wales, my home state. It's very clear and consistent, however there are a few aged signs that are in need of replacement (in a positive way).
One thing I hate on 90's signage is the plastered RTA logo (former gov authority) on signs installed in that era
Example
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ozroads.com.au%2FNSW%2FRouteNumbering%2FMetroads%2F6%2F03.JPG&hash=10c762ac3d6a8edf66e5797ed5ada9f339086c1f)
Also i don't like the thick borders on Victorian signs and their unconventional signing practices.

Quote from: mp_quadrillion on August 26, 2012, 12:55:20 AM
Lane marking in NY and AL: rather than leaving a gap that shows where the merge ends (NY) or where the turn lane begins (AL) often they just make the lines more dotted. Made for more surprises than I cared for when I was there.

In NY at least, this is a VERY recent practice done I believe to comply with the new MUTCD.  Just a couple years ago you couldn't find a single instance of the more dotted lines in the entire state; now it's hard to find a place that doesn't use them.

I hate the new interstate shields that VDOT has started using in the past year. Unfortunately, their use is becoming more and more widespread.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-tqxbl30_y-A/T5L9Diy5hFI/AAAAAAAACBc/d5ilEowrb-I/s816/DSC00718.JPG)

Quote from: deanej on August 26, 2012, 11:29:14 AM

Quote from: mp_quadrillion on August 26, 2012, 12:55:20 AM
Lane marking in NY and AL: rather than leaving a gap that shows where the merge ends (NY) or where the turn lane begins (AL) often they just make the lines more dotted. Made for more surprises than I cared for when I was there.

In NY at least, this is a VERY recent practice done I believe to comply with the new MUTCD.  Just a couple years ago you couldn't find a single instance of the more dotted lines in the entire state; now it's hard to find a place that doesn't use them.

I guess I should read that fine manual then! And I just did. Interesting change..

My experience: A finely dotted line tends to look too much like a solid one at speed.

I don't mind the lines becoming more dotted near the end of the merge; I just find the cue of a gap to be valuable, especially if the sightlines are less-than-perfect or if there's tons of traffic to pay attention to. More than a few of my merges in NYC ended with "#$%! That's it?"

In Alabama, I'd tend to overshoot the entrance to a turn lane because of this, too. It's even worse at night. I'm trying to figure out the advantage to striping things this way.

I like North Carolina's usage of "REDUCE SPEED AHEAD" instead of the grammatically-incorrect "REDUCED SPEED AHEAD" often seen elsewhere. Whether the "speed" is reduced depends on the driver–it is the speed LIMIT that is reduced.

I prefer the yellow signs advising what the lower limit will be, but if the white variety is used, then North Carolina's version is the proper style.

I hate PennDOT's overuse of 'no pedestrians' signs in all directions at seemingly every rural intersection.

Likes - California's "FREEWAY ENTRANCE" assemblies (and the "END FREEWAY" signs, too).

Dislikes - inconsistency in putting up mile markers every 1/10th (or some other fraction of a mile) in Maryland.

One that I like:

Little overhead route markers when approaching (and often right after) an intersection. (https://maps.google.com/?ll=33.668257,-83.988696&spn=0.00079,0.001289&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=33.668323,-83.988609&panoid=_524PUAJdzWsbxPpidcIuA&cbp=12,50.96,,0,-0.19)  I don't think I've seen any widespread use of these outside of Georgia.

Dislikes:
Tennessee
-Lack of double turn signage.
-sign posts are often too short and/or leaning.
-general shoddy condition of non-BGS signage.
-failure to repair slope failures that endanger/and or damage roads. (US 41/64/72 between Haletown and Chattanooga)( One place the paved shoulder dropped 8in straight down, no cones around it.)

Texas
-Failure to always use "THRU TRAFFIC MERGE LEFT" signs when a thru lane becomes a turn only lane.
-no median tip deliniators
-removal of LANE ENDS SYMBOL from TEXAS MUTCD
-no barricade lights. Would like to see them required for tapers, road closures, and small repair location hazards.

Likes:
Florida
-Use of deliniators on all median tips
-heavy use of barricade lights
-good pavement markings that are well-maintained.
-signs mounted on high-quality strong posts

Quote from: deanej on August 26, 2012, 11:29:14 AM
In NY at least, this is a VERY recent practice done I believe to comply with the new MUTCD.  Just a couple years ago you couldn't find a single instance of the more dotted lines in the entire state; now it's hard to find a place that doesn't use them.

New Jersey has just started doing this.  While it has been done on the Garden State Parkway for decades (when it was it's own authority), the NJ Turnpike Authority and NJDOT never used the short skip lines (dotted lines).  NJDOT is now using them whenever new line painting is performed (such as after a major construction project or repaving).

Interestingly, NJDOT has been using them *during* road work projects at interchanges for several years, but after the work is completed the final stripping would be the normal, longer skip lines.

Other practices: 

Like: Jughandles.  Keeps slower traffic to the right.
Dislike: Jughandle signage - especially on roadways where there are left turn lanes at some intersections and jughandles at other intersections.  There is usually just a single sign approaching and often very close to the intersection, detailing what side of the roadway to be on.

Dislike: Lack of overhead signs, especially in heavy traffic areas.  Prime example: Rt. 73, between I-295 and the NJ Turnpike.  Good luck knowing what lane to be in if you're not familiar with the area, especially when there's the traffic light with Fellowship Rd (btw...a dislike mentioned above - one direction uses a jughandle for left turns, the other direction uses a left turn lane).

Like: The traffic circles

Indifferent: All roads are called "Route"...not Interstate or State Route.  As in, Route 295; Route 322, Route 42...

Like: Routes/Street names on the traffic lights.  Not region-specific since other states have used them for many years, but they're a great improvement over the small street signs generally used.

Quote from: Brian556 on August 27, 2012, 12:02:19 AM
Texas
-Failure to always use "THRU TRAFFIC MERGE LEFT" signs when a thru lane becomes a turn only lane.

I definitely call that a "Texas turn".  it seems to be de-emphasized in design here in California... very rare that a lane abruptly becomes a turn lane.  generally, CA keeps the lane an option if it is not geographically possible to build a new turn lane to the right of an existing lane.

the best thing CA does?  cutouts, and infrequent replacement of old green signs. 

the worst is not maintaining roads under overpasses.  on I-5, there are places where I must merge into the left lane (for seemingly no reason) to avoid destroying my suspension when going under a bridge.

In Northern Wisconsin and the UP, passing lanes on otherwise two-lane roads are striped such that the thru traffic is pushed into the right lane. That is, there is a skip line placed at an angle to the centerline, which then straightens out and turns into a regular dashed line when the lanes are at full width.

This is better than the Oklahoma setup for such a lane, where the lane just begins on the right and the driver must be cognizant of KRETP laws and specifically move to the right.

Dislike/Despise:  NJ jughandles.  I know some people love them

Like: NJ state highways for the most part have full paved shoulders.  Here in FL its annoying when trying to drive in the right lane and cars are coming to a stop to turn into the Walmart

Something I had forgotten about until I was reminded of it by seeing my screen-saver showing pictures of our June 2003 vacation in Hawaii: On some roads in Hawaii where there's no traffic light, traffic turning left onto the main road is sometimes given its own short protected lane so that if the traffic coming from the left eases to allow a turn but the traffic coming from the right doesn't allow a safe gap, you can turn into the protected lane and then wait for a gap (although in practice I found people usually just slowed down and flashed their lights to let you in....Hawaii was easily the most relaxed place I've ever driven and was perhaps the only place I've never felt the need to exceed the speed limit).

The concept is maybe a little similar to a center "suicide left turn lane" except the lane is not used for turning off the main road and isn't meant for traffic going in either direction. To be sure, those left-turn lanes are used as well; there's one just a short distance behind the Street View car at the link below. It's just that this particular style of what I guess you could call a "waiting area" isn't something I ever recall seeing elsewhere as a routine sort of thing.

Here's a Street View of one such place near Kapa`a on Kauai. This isn't the precise one I remember the most clearly after looking at our pictures, but it's the same idea. (http://goo.gl/maps/o6YG4)



As an aside, I just noticed that the Google Street View man you drop on the map is wearing an Aloha shirt and carrying a surfboard when you use that feature in Hawaii.

Likes...
-New Jersey's use of mile markers on every single numbered highway, including the county routes.
-PennDOT's colored detour system
-Québec's use of symbol signs, such as this one (http://www.flickr.com/photos/iccdude/7866810760/in/set-72157625796754922).
-New Hampshire and their practice of putting the letter suffix below the number on suffixed routes (an example (http://www.flickr.com/photos/iccdude/7451818598/in/set-72157630335817836)). NHDOT doesn't do this for routes with one numeral, such as NH 3A.
-New Hampshire's JUNCTION (http://www.flickr.com/photos/iccdude/7630847728/in/set-72157630335817836) signs that you see whenever you approach a numbered road. Sadly, NHDOT isn't making these signs anymore.
-The color combo seen on the traffic signals (http://www.flickr.com/photos/iccdude/7376254338/in/set-72157625788248838/) in New England. It consists of a yellow backside and visors, with a black front.
-New York's boxed street names on the BGS's. The fact that NYSDOT also rounds the corners of their freeway signs is also pretty cool.
-Maryland's black route shield unisigns you see at traffic signal intersections. Example. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/iccdude/7342919902/in/set-72157625662711155)
-The gold on brown signage seen up in the Adirondacks in New York.
-New York's use of "Z-bars" (http://www.flickr.com/photos/iccdude/6540295851/in/set-72157628476701259) on the backs of their signage.
-Massachusetts and their "paddle" signs (http://www.flickr.com/photos/iccdude/5647127656/in/set-72157625788221666).

Dislikes...
-PennDOT's lack of passing zones.
-Maryland's extra extra large exit tabs with very tiny text. And I guess the same goes for Delaware now.
-Rhode Island's lack of cut-out interstate shields. And their helvetica signage. And their compressed font signage. I guess Rhode Island signage in general is awful (except for the BGS's, they look decent).
-The fact that New York has so many styles of their state route shield. Examples:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/iccdude/5381678442/in/set-72157625788140076
http://www.flickr.com/photos/iccdude/5341570972/in/set-72157625788140076
http://www.flickr.com/photos/iccdude/5998237402/in/set-72157625788140076
http://www.flickr.com/photos/iccdude/5997699297/in/set-72157625788140076
http://www.flickr.com/photos/iccdude/6326768384/in/set-72157625788140076
http://www.flickr.com/photos/iccdude/6776087320/in/set-72157628476701259
-Maine's lack of directional banners at a lot of intersections. New York as well, though they seem be a little more consistent Maine.

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 28, 2012, 11:04:47 AM
Something I had forgotten about until I was reminded of it by seeing my screen-saver showing pictures of our June 2003 vacation in Hawaii: On some roads in Hawaii where there's no traffic light, traffic turning left onto the main road is sometimes given its own short protected lane so that if the traffic coming from the left eases to allow a turn but the traffic coming from the right doesn't allow a safe gap, you can turn into the protected lane and then wait for a gap (although in practice I found people usually just slowed down and flashed their lights to let you in....Hawaii was easily the most relaxed place I've ever driven and was perhaps the only place I've never felt the need to exceed the speed limit).

The concept is maybe a little similar to a center "suicide left turn lane" except the lane is not used for turning off the main road and isn't meant for traffic going in either direction. To be sure, those left-turn lanes are used as well; there's one just a short distance behind the Street View car at the link below. It's just that this particular style of what I guess you could call a "waiting area" isn't something I ever recall seeing elsewhere as a routine sort of thing.

Here's a Street View of one such place near Kapa`a on Kauai. This isn't the precise one I remember the most clearly after looking at our pictures, but it's the same idea. (http://goo.gl/maps/o6YG4)



As an aside, I just noticed that the Google Street View man you drop on the map is wearing an Aloha shirt and carrying a surfboard when you use that feature in Hawaii.

I've noticed those lanes at signalized intersections in various places, particularly CA, and Maryland loves using them on high capacity corridors like US 113.

Maine uses them frequently at unsignalized intersections like you describe, though the lane exists both before and after the intersection and tends to function more as a lane to pass left turning traffic.

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 28, 2012, 11:04:47 AM
As an aside, I just noticed that the Google Street View man you drop on the map is wearing an Aloha shirt and carrying a surfboard when you use that feature in Hawaii.

He rides the board when you move him about the map.  I wonder what happens when you drop him in the ocean?

Dislike:  Use of the flashing green signal to mean completely different things in B.C. and the rest of Canada.  If there's no general agreement what a traffic signal means, post a sign instead.

Quote from: Special K on August 28, 2012, 03:57:28 PM
He rides the board when you move him about the map.  I wonder what happens when you drop him in the ocean?

I'd like to think the song "Wipeout" starts playing.  Though I doubt it.

Minnesota
Like:   Paved shoulders and good signage on many state and county highways.
Like:   Frequent wide spots for passing turning vehicles (called bypass lanes).
Dislike:   Infrequent painting of lane arrows on the pavement.

Illinois
Like:   Speeding tolerated.   :)
Dislike:   Somewhat common traffic circles that are either uncontrolled or not completely yield-upon-entering.
Dislike:   Unsigned secondary state routes (except on reference markers).

Iowa
Like:   Not much.
Dislike:   I-35 potholes (though this has been getting better over the last few years).
Dislike:   Low speed limits on two-lane highways.
Dislike:   Lack of paved shoulders on major non-freeway highways.

Missouri
Like:   Experimentation with alternative intersections like roundabouts and diverging diamonds.
Dislike:   Inadequate advisory speed signage on sinuous primary and secondary state highways.
Dislike:   Centerline rumble strips.

Kansas
Like:   Reasonable speed limits, varying by road type.
Like:   "Next exit ## miles" signage on the Turnpike.
Dislike:   Erroneous traffic control signs in Wichita, especially W4-2 (though without that dotted line...when did that change?)

Oklahoma
Like:   Not much.
Dislike:   I-35 potholes (though this has been getting better over the last few years).
Dislike:   Overabundance of dotted lines.
Dislike:   Turnpikes with no shoulders boasting higher speed limits than Interstates.

Texas
Like:   Well maintained and signed secondary state routes.
Like:   Decent pavement and signage.
Dislike:   Slip ramps from frontage road to mainline with inadequate acceleration lane.
Dislike:   Toll roads with no option to pay cash.

México
Like:   Lax adherance to traffic laws but good adherance to left lane discipline.
Like:   Slow traffic encouraged to ride the shoulder.
Dislike:   Inconstistent signage when it comes to route numbers.
Dislike:   No left turn on a solid green ball at signals with left turn arrows, even if red arrow not included.
Dislike:   Speed bumps, many not painted.

QuoteTexas
Like:   Well maintained and signed secondary state routes.
Like:   Decent pavement and signage.
Dislike:   Slip ramps from frontage road to mainline with inadequate acceleration lane.
Dislike:   Toll roads with no option to pay cash.

I agree with all these. The inadequate merging lanes are the worst problem. The worst were on the oldest part of US 75 (Central Expy), but that section has been rebuilt. There are still some that are too short on I-35E/Stemmons Frwy.

Also, I dislike that Frontage Roads are often too close to mainlanes, and ramps are often too short, so you cannot tell if someone is exiting in time to yield to them if you are on the frontage road. I-35E in Denton is horrible about this.
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=33.203904,-97.151105&spn=0.000004,0.003133&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=33.203947,-97.151204&panoid=h6R7lwJ0F23B_7R9ejc7Dw&cbp=12,320.62,,0,0 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=33.203904,-97.151105&spn=0.000004,0.003133&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=33.203947,-97.151204&panoid=h6R7lwJ0F23B_7R9ejc7Dw&cbp=12,320.62,,0,0)

Texas
Like - speed limits suitable for the roads. A rural two-lane with wide ROW could be 70MPH.
Dislike - every single rural Interstate seems to have a frontage road
Dislike - truncation of US 80 to Dallas, especially when US 180 continues.

Louisiana
Like - always up-to-date with the newest signs, especially on reinforced posts.
Like - Most of the US highways (with the exception of US 65, US 51, US 11, and US 79) are four-laned.
Dislike - about ten different sign specs that will be put up at any given time. One intersection has seven state shield variations.
Dislike - the continued use of 55 MPH on ANY AND ALL two-lane roads.

Mississippi
Like - the quality of the highways, always smooth, scenic, and well maintained with little litter.
Like - The continued signing of US 98 in Natchez.
Dislike - most rural highways have no shoulder at all. Also, the "40 MPH OVER HILL" is weird, but I've become acquainted to it.

Arkansas
Like - Welcome center signage and cleanliness. Each welcome center sign is completely different.
Like - posting of county routes, especially when entering from Louisiana.
Dislike - Welcome center locations - usually about 15-20 miles into the state on US highways.

Illinois:
Like - Toll authority is willing to try new ideas and keeps the roads in good shape.
Like - Oodles of permitted left turns.
Dislike - Double left turn lanes used where Michigan Lefts would be better.
Dislike - Low speed limits on Chicago expressways and tollways.

Indiana:
Like - InDOT has rebuilt the entire Borman Expy so it actually moves.
Dislike - Lack of permitted left turns.
Dislike - Lack of shoulders on US and state routes (non-freeway).

Wisconsin:
Like - Pavement quality (IDOT can learn something here).
Dislike - Slow limit for their quality roads.

Michigan:
Like - The use of Michigan Lefts and permitted left turns.
Like - Ability to turn left on red from a two-way onto a one-way street.
Like - Wide cleared areas on highways with wide paved shoulders.
Like - Maintains higher speed limit on freeways in cities.
Dislike - 55 mph limit on rural roads, especially in the UP.

Ohio:
Like - 70 mph on the Turnpike.
Dislike - It's Ohio, 'nough said. :P

Iowa:
Like - County routes are signed.
Like - Exit numbers are signed from the side roads so you know where you enter a freeway.
Dislike - Speed cameras allowed on freeways (Cedar Rapids, I'm looking at you).

Missouri:
Like - Bridges along the rebuild of I-64/US-40.
Dislike - Lack of space for the roads leading into the Poplar Street Bridge.

California:
Like - Interchange design.
Dislike - Lack of permitted left turns.
Dislike - Double left turn lanes where Michigan Lefts would be better (Bakersfield, I'm looking at you).
Dislike - Crappy, ancient signage.

Nevada:
Like - Pavement quality.
Like - Decent signage and higher speeds on two-lane roads.
Dislike - Low speeds on I-15 through Las Vegas.

Ontario:
Like - The curved arrows used for exits.
Dislike - Overuse of parclos.  To get from London Line Rd to westbound 402 is a pain in the ass due to this.

Quote from: mcdonaat on August 29, 2012, 02:47:53 AM

Mississippi
Like - the quality of the highways, always smooth

Where in Mississippi was that? In my experience it always seemed to be the opposite! Although I'll admit it's been a while since I've driven there.


Here's a couple of mine:

Louisiana:
dislikes - agreed mcdonaat...the max 55 mph on 2 lanes sucks
dislikes - scarce mileage signs on some less than interstate hwys. especially after construction. case in point US 165 since they've 4 laned it all. I'd wager to say 167 is that way too
dislikes - the black state highway signs becoming the standard. The green was unique compared to all the bordering states

likes -  the 4 laning of most of the major US highways
likes - decent signage of all routes, concurrencies, etc
likes- always was a fan of the BGS's down south with lane diagrams for major exits/splits

Texas: the placement of their exit arrow bugs me a bit:

Quote from: national highway 1 on May 24, 2012, 02:23:57 AM
I'm not a particular fan of how Texas aligns their arrows at the bottom of exit signs:
(https://www.aaroads.com/texas/ih010/i-010_e_exit_325_01.jpg)

Quote from: bassoon1986 on August 29, 2012, 11:46:29 PM

Quote from: mcdonaat on August 29, 2012, 02:47:53 AM

Mississippi
Like - the quality of the highways, always smooth

Where in Mississippi was that? In my experience it always seemed to be the opposite! Although I'll admit it's been a while since I've driven there.

indeed!  one of the things I like about Mississippi is the old bumpy concrete that is everywhere.  especially old two-lane bumpy concrete. 

Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 30, 2012, 12:44:02 PM

Quote from: bassoon1986 on August 29, 2012, 11:46:29 PM

Quote from: mcdonaat on August 29, 2012, 02:47:53 AM

Mississippi
Like - the quality of the highways, always smooth

Where in Mississippi was that? In my experience it always seemed to be the opposite! Although I'll admit it's been a while since I've driven there.

indeed!  one of the things I like about Mississippi is the old bumpy concrete that is everywhere.  especially old two-lane bumpy concrete. 

Maybe it's because I was always coming into MS from LA, but US 61, 84/98, MS 24, 33, and 48, and US 51 were my only routes traveled, with all of them being much smoother than Louisiana.

Mile markers are messed up big time in LA. LA 3225 in Tioga, which is about six miles long, still retains the Mile 80 marker from US 71. All markers are northbound or westbound only, with both directions posted on LA 137 between Archibald and Rayville. US 167 north of Pineville still retains markers, and so does US 71 north of Pineville.

Quote from: kkt on August 28, 2012, 04:08:42 PM
Dislike:  Use of the flashing green signal to mean completely different things in B.C. and the rest of Canada.  If there's no general agreement what a traffic signal means, post a sign instead.

The rest of Canada seems to have it so a flashing green means all direction of travel (where legal) has the right of way. What does it mean in B.C.? Just curious, since I've never been to that part of the country.

Quote from: PennDOTFan on August 30, 2012, 05:20:05 PM

Quote from: kkt on August 28, 2012, 04:08:42 PM
Dislike:  Use of the flashing green signal to mean completely different things in B.C. and the rest of Canada.  If there's no general agreement what a traffic signal means, post a sign instead.

The rest of Canada seems to have it so a flashing green means all direction of travel (where legal) has the right of way. What does it mean in B.C.? Just curious, since I've never been to that part of the country.

Pedestrian-controlled crossing.

Is the predominant use of span wire for traffic signals a regional practice? From my travels I associate that with the upper Midwest and the Southeast. If so, I vote "dislike".

Quote from: Eth on August 26, 2012, 10:46:21 PM
One that I like:

Little overhead route markers when approaching (and often right after) an intersection. (https://maps.google.com/?ll=33.668257,-83.988696&spn=0.00079,0.001289&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=33.668323,-83.988609&panoid=_524PUAJdzWsbxPpidcIuA&cbp=12,50.96,,0,-0.19)  I don't think I've seen any widespread use of these outside of Georgia.

Indiana seems to do it the best, with nice BIG overhead assemblies denoting where each route is going at the upcoming intersections.  I wish more states would follow suit coughcoughCOLORADOcoughcough.

Quote from: national highway 1 on August 30, 2012, 06:05:57 AM
Texas: the placement of their exit arrow bugs me a bit:

Quote from: national highway 1 on May 24, 2012, 02:23:57 AM
I'm not a particular fan of how Texas aligns their arrows at the bottom of exit signs:
(https://www.aaroads.com/texas/ih010/i-010_e_exit_325_01.jpg)

I have seen Maryland do the same thing.  Heck, you also can see where the arrow used to be on some signs (particularly on I-68 and I-70 between Hancock and Hagerstown).

QuoteIs the predominant use of span wire for traffic signals a regional practice? From my travels I associate that with the upper Midwest and the Southeast. If so, I vote "dislike".

Michigan uses a lot of span wire.  Do you have a preference of diagonal spans or box spans?

Diagonal span example:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FRandom%2FSouthMainSt.jpg&hash=d8b93619fe037960d0a278c1d7a19826a56a5f04)

Box span example:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FRandom%2FSouthMainSt2.jpg&hash=b168c688af6596be6495cd05d9ac09c9bea48a57)

Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on August 30, 2012, 06:33:39 PM
Is the predominant use of span wire for traffic signals a regional practice? From my travels I associate that with the upper Midwest and the Southeast. If so, I vote "dislike".

Span wire installations are also big in the northeastern states. I actually like span wire signals, unless they're sloppy, like this:

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.staticflickr.com%2F5222%2F5650126495_a0858ec2c3_z.jpg&hash=8cc46e0ae5cc4cc504bc7403c9b68e1f6b2818f6)

Quote from: kphoger on August 28, 2012, 09:43:46 PM

Illinois
Like:   Speeding tolerated.   :)

Don't know what part of Illinois you're talking about, but on 1-64 they will get you for doing 72 [they did me]. This was because I did not realize that the speed limit went from 70 in Indiana to 65 in Illinois. As General Ackbar once said, it's a trap.

Kentucky
Like:   Many of the interstates are 3 lanes each direction, or soon will be.
Like:   They actually removed the tolls on the parkways after they were paid off.
Like:   The speed limit remains high several miles into town. For example, I-65 in Kentucky has a 70 mph limit until the I-265 freeway, and a 65 mile speed limit almost to the airport, which is in the middle of town. Indiana on the other hand has a 55 mph limit several miles into the rural areas.
Dislike:   I think they removed the tolls too quickly, and should have improved the roads first, such as 4-laneing the parts of the Bert T. Combs Mountain Parkway that are super-2.
Dislike:   That they renamed all of the parkways after politicians.
Dislike:   They have too many state highways. Every road owned or maintained by the state has a number.

Quote from: ljwestmcsd on August 30, 2012, 10:53:35 PM
Dislike:   They have too many state highways. Every road owned or maintained by the state has a number.

Isn't this true of most states (Massachusetts and Rhode Island are the only ones I can think of that don't do this)?

Quote from: NE2 on August 30, 2012, 11:33:01 PM

Quote from: ljwestmcsd on August 30, 2012, 10:53:35 PM
Dislike:   They have too many state highways. Every road owned or maintained by the state has a number.

Isn't this true of most states (Massachusetts and Rhode Island are the only ones I can think of that don't do this)?

Wisconsin doesn't do this.  They have too many County Highways which are letters.

In my visits to Michigan, there are multiple observations that I do like within the state. For one, I like that most major two-lane roads have rumble strips in the middle of the road to alert drivers that they're too close to center. Also of note is the fact that the starting points of legal passing zones are marked with signs stating "Pass with care."

Another nice touch (especially in Grand Rapids) is the blinking red left turn signal. The concept of left turns on either a green arrow or a blinking red light is great for moderate-flow intersections.

I don't know if Ohio still does it, but I loved the practice of marking which lanes were for an exit and which lanes were thru by use of a solid stripe. A solid white line would give drivers an idea of which lanes they need to be in to complete their transition for about a few thousand feet. I know I saw that in Columbus a few years back...

I also like the Illinois practice of placing secondary control cities on interstates for lesser traveled interchanges. To me, it serves as good reference points for where you are in the state.

Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on August 31, 2012, 12:04:39 AM

Another nice touch (especially in Grand Rapids) is the blinking red left turn signal. The concept of left turns on either a green arrow or a blinking red light is great for moderate-flow intersections.

I don't think I've ever seen a blinking red left turn signal.  does this mean I have to come to a stop before making the left turn, even though I can clearly see there is no one coming to intersect my path?

Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 31, 2012, 12:41:28 AMI don't think I've ever seen a blinking red left turn signal.  does this mean I have to come to a stop before making the left turn, even though I can clearly see there is no one coming to intersect my path?

Technically, you have to stop before proceeding. It's a little more strict than "left turn yield on green," but as long as the effort is there, I am sure it's okay. I've done both in my visits to Grand Rapids.

Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on August 31, 2012, 12:44:32 AM

Technically, you have to stop before proceeding. It's a little more strict than "left turn yield on green," but as long as the effort is there, I am sure it's okay. I've done both in my visits to Grand Rapids.

is it because oncoming traffic is coming around a curve or other low-visibility situation?

Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on August 30, 2012, 06:33:39 PM
Is the predominant use of span wire for traffic signals a regional practice? From my travels I associate that with the upper Midwest[snip]

Actually, span wire is the exception instead of the rule here in the Upper Midwest with Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, and Illinois using mast arm or truss assemblies as the norm for controlled intersections.   

Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 31, 2012, 12:47:18 AMis it because oncoming traffic is coming around a curve or other low-visibility situation?

Really, it's neither. Most of these light types I've encountered have been on gentle straightaways. I just like this visual indication of permissive left turns...a lot better than the vague "Left Turn Signal" signs and more flexible than our strict "Left on Green Arrow Only" policy here.

QuoteI don't think I've ever seen a blinking red left turn signal.  does this mean I have to come to a stop before making the left turn, even though I can clearly see there is no one coming to intersect my path?

MDOT director Kirt Steudle was recently interviewed on the Frank Beckmann show and this topic came up.  This was his reply:

QuoteWhen you drive up to an intersection and there is nobody coming and the light is flashing red you are suppose to stop and then proceed.  But what everybody was doing, myself included and probably most of your listeners, is you see a flashing red light coming up and nobody is coming and you just whip right through it.  Well, you just violated the traffic law because you're supposed to stop and then proceed...(Aug 13, 2012)

The full interview can be found in the link below.  The topic came up after Oakland County Executive L. Brooks Patterson was involved in a serious accident at an intersection with a flashing yellow arrow.

http://www.wjr.com/FlashPlayer/default.asp?SPID=34613&ID=2512143

Quote from: ljwestmcsd on August 30, 2012, 10:53:35 PM

Quote from: kphoger on August 28, 2012, 09:43:46 PM

Illinois
Like:   Speeding tolerated.   :)

Don't know what part of Illinois you're talking about, but on 1-64 they will get you for doing 72 [they did me]. This was because I did not realize that the speed limit went from 70 in Indiana to 65 in Illinois. As General Ackbar once said, it's a trap.

Some of the downstate state police districts get a bit bug nutty on speed when compared to the state police districts in northern Illinois and the Tollway state police district (District 15).  The situation gets bad down around places like Litchfield.

Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on August 31, 2012, 12:04:39 AM
Another nice touch (especially in Grand Rapids) is the blinking red left turn signal. The concept of left turns on either a green arrow or a blinking red light is great for moderate-flow intersections.

I think this flashing red arrow is deprecated, but to me, it was dangerous. Drivers interpret it differently - the locals treat it as a solid green ball (no stopping and yield to oncoming traffic), but visitors always stopped. Sometimes they would sit through a cycle so it seemed to cause the potential for rear end collisions. The flashing yellow arrow is the replacement, but that also causes a level of confusion as evidenced by the story from Oakland County.

I still don't understand the problem with the solid green ball. It does the job effectively, and there is little room for confusion. To me, the FYA was a solution in search of a problem.

The only solid green ball issue I remember occurred in your neck of the woods. Back around 1973 or 1974, Indiana (ISHC, I suppose) introduced the doghouse traffic lights on US 30 in Lake County. Therefore, left turns went from protected to protected/permissive, but the results were not pretty. There were several accidents so the state quickly replaced them all - since then pretty much all divided highways statewide either have either protected left turns only or no left turn signals at all.

Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on August 30, 2012, 06:33:39 PM
Is the predominant use of span wire for traffic signals a regional practice? From my travels I associate that with the upper Midwest and the Southeast. If so, I vote "dislike".

Virginia used a lot of span wire for a long time but has been moving more towards mast arms recently. The most annoying thing about the span wire was that they maintained (falsely) that it prevented them from hanging a street sign next to the traffic lights because the wire wouldn't allow for it. I don't believe that because I've seen plenty of span wire in other states with street signs hung from it, primarily in North Carolina because I spent three years there during law school and so had more reason to notice such things. Of course, I suppose their wire might be a different specification.

I found the amount of span wire I saw in the Miami suburbs to be somewhat surprising because I would have expected hurricane preparedness would have suggested not using it. But on the other hand, if they're expecting a bad one they can take down the traffic lights in advance if they use wire. Back in North Carolina the City of Durham did that in 1996 prior to Hurricane Fran so that the span wire wouldn't snap loose and become a hazard.

^ With regard to your point about signs hanging from span wire in Virginia, the only time I'd ever seen an example of such was in the mid-90s at a local intersection that didn't have any place to put the blade signs on the ground. For years it didn't have a sign at all, but one day the sign appeared hanging from the wire. Eventually, some redevelopment occurred there in such a way that it became possible to post the signs at the normal level.

Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 link=topic=7546.msg171449#msg171449
Really, it's neither. Most of these light types I've encountered have been on gentle straightaways. I just like this visual indication of permissive left turns...a lot better than the vague "Left Turn Signal" signs and more flexible than our strict "Left on Green Arrow Only" policy here.

I'm used to permissive left turns being completely unsigned and unsignaled. 

at a "left turn yield on [green ball]", I think to myself "well, of course"... and recently, I have to pause for a moment to parse a flashing yellow arrow, to remember that it isn't any different from its absence.

Quote from: NE2 on August 30, 2012, 11:33:01 PM

Quote from: ljwestmcsd on August 30, 2012, 10:53:35 PM
Dislike:   They have too many state highways. Every road owned or maintained by the state has a number.

Isn't this true of most states (Massachusetts and Rhode Island are the only ones I can think of that don't do this)?

Oklahoma has a few non-numbered state highways, like Lincoln Boulevard in Oklahoma City, the Duncan Bypass, and a few which are shown in the control section book as numbered "0" (even in one case, a "0B"), none of which are signed.

I'd love to see a 0 or a 0B get accidentally signed.

Quote from: Brandon on August 31, 2012, 06:38:26 AM

Quote from: ljwestmcsd on August 30, 2012, 10:53:35 PM

Quote from: kphoger on August 28, 2012, 09:43:46 PM

Illinois
Like:   Speeding tolerated.   :)

Don't know what part of Illinois you're talking about, but on 1-64 they will get you for doing 72 [they did me]. This was because I did not realize that the speed limit went from 70 in Indiana to 65 in Illinois. As General Ackbar once said, it's a trap.

Some of the downstate state police districts get a bit bug nutty on speed when compared to the state police districts in northern Illinois and the Tollway state police district (District 15).  The situation gets bad down around places like Litchfield.

In southern Illinois, my experience is that people drive more slowly east of I-57 than west of I-57–by as much as 10 mph.  I never used to drive less than 62 mph on the two-laners or 70 on the Interstates, and never had any problems, even in the box truck I drove.

When you've lived somewhere for a while, it's easier to point out the dislikes than the likes.  Here's a couple of interesting likes, then my dislikes.

Like: MA signs for towns that say Thickly  Settled.  Sounds like you're entering a sauce pan

Like: A couple of signs in CT for deaf children where the slow was put in the middle.  Reading from top to bottom, it would say "Deaf Slow Children"

Dislike: Empty marked off full lane divider between HOV lanes and regular lanes on I 84 and I 91 in CT (such as waste of space)

Really dislike: CT Phase III button copy reflective signage.  So many of the buttons are worn out you can't even read them at night any more.

Also dislike: inconsistent numbering vs. non-numbering of exits on short state routes.  Why CT 20 doesn't have exit numbers but the Milford connector does is beyond me.

Future wish: Put up route shields for major Secret State Routes longer than 2 miles. (ie CT 695)

Quote from: tradephoric on August 31, 2012, 02:45:09 AM

QuoteI don't think I've ever seen a blinking red left turn signal.  does this mean I have to come to a stop before making the left turn, even though I can clearly see there is no one coming to intersect my path?

MDOT director Kirt Steudle was recently interviewed on the Frank Beckmann show and this topic came up.  This was his reply:

QuoteWhen you drive up to an intersection and there is nobody coming and the light is flashing red you are suppose to stop and then proceed.  But what everybody was doing, myself included and probably most of your listeners, is you see a flashing red light coming up and nobody is coming and you just whip right through it.  Well, you just violated the traffic law because you're supposed to stop and then proceed...(Aug 13, 2012)

The full interview can be found in the link below.  The topic came up after Oakland County Executive L. Brooks Patterson was involved in a serious accident at an intersection with a flashing yellow arrow.

http://www.wjr.com/FlashPlayer/default.asp?SPID=34613&ID=2512143

In the Metro Detroit area, I remember seeing lights that started off as solid reds then would then start flashing red after about 10-15 seconds, then would get the protected green arrow once the thru lights turned red.  I also remember single head right-turn arrows which would flash green at times. 

Nowadays, I believe the left turn signals either flash or stay red on the onset, and do not change until getting the green arrow.

In any event, I never got confused as to what the flashing reds & greens meant whenever I traveled in Michigan.

Quote from: NE2 on August 30, 2012, 11:33:01 PM

Quote from: ljwestmcsd on August 30, 2012, 10:53:35 PM
Dislike:   They have too many state highways. Every road owned or maintained by the state has a number.

Isn't this true of most states (Massachusetts and Rhode Island are the only ones I can think of that don't do this)?

Vermont has some unnumbered connectors - at least I don't believe they have internal numbers. It may be a Northeastern thing in general, though CT and NY assign internal numbers rather than none.
Also: Alaska. Bam.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 31, 2012, 12:41:28 AM

Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on August 31, 2012, 12:04:39 AM

Another nice touch (especially in Grand Rapids) is the blinking red left turn signal. The concept of left turns on either a green arrow or a blinking red light is great for moderate-flow intersections.

I don't think I've ever seen a blinking red left turn signal.  does this mean I have to come to a stop before making the left turn, even though I can clearly see there is no one coming to intersect my path?

This is the only known example in the Known Universe of a flashing red arrow compliant with MUTCD Figure 4D-8B. It is on the SE side of Pueblo at the intersection of U.S. 50 Business (Santa Fe Drive) and Northern Avenue. Of course, as I pulled into the left turn lane, the signal turned to green arrow, but the two lights on top are solid red arrow and flashing red arrow. You can argue whether there is sufficient obstruction to visibility of oncoming traffic from the short hill and high median to warrant the red rather than yellow arrow, but I think the determining factor was two left turn lanes here.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8458%2F7903159790_f4c303319d.jpg&hash=9c81f6d7c814f9e884872200abc0e03ea2465faa) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/29887636@N08/7903159790/)
Santa Fe-Northern (http://www.flickr.com/photos/29887636@N08/7903159790/) by The High Plains Traveler (http://www.flickr.com/people/29887636@N08/), on Flickr

The sign on the mast arm reads "Left Turn Must Yield On Flashing Red Arrow After Stop". This is part of the Colorado DOT saturation of the triangle formed by Colorado Springs, Cañon City and Pueblo with flashing turn arrows.

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Post Merge: September 01, 2012, 11:44:36 AM

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Quote from: tradephoric on August 30, 2012, 09:19:19 PM

QuoteIs the predominant use of span wire for traffic signals a regional practice? From my travels I associate that with the upper Midwest and the Southeast. If so, I vote "dislike".

Michigan uses a lot of span wire.  Do you have a preference of diagonal spans or box spans?

Diagonal span example:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FRandom%2FSouthMainSt.jpg&hash=d8b93619fe037960d0a278c1d7a19826a56a5f04)

Box span example:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FRandom%2FSouthMainSt2.jpg&hash=b168c688af6596be6495cd05d9ac09c9bea48a57)

When I'm better at manipulating code within this board I can combine this with a previous post. If I am forced to have a span wire signalized intersection, I "prefer" box spans except for simple intersections with only one phase per direction. What I really hate to see is a diagonal span with multiple signals for each direction, i.e. both a left turn signal and a through signal. Signals with mast arms perpendicular to the direction of travel do this so much better, IMO.

As I intended in my original posting, "Upper Midwest" includes Indiana and Michigan, both of which are heavy span wire users. I don't remember what Ohio's preferences are.

Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on August 31, 2012, 09:44:24 PM
As I intended in my original posting, "Upper Midwest" includes Indiana and Michigan, both of which are heavy span wire users. I don't remember what Ohio's preferences are.

Ohio uses spanwires extensively.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 31, 2012, 01:08:11 PM
I'd love to see a 0 or a 0B get accidentally signed.

0 and 0B look like they might be old OK 33 alignments. Langston and Coyle.

North Carolina uses two red ball signals for left turns.

New Jersey uses multiple mast arms at intersections as well as the only state to have signal heads on the left side of the road using back to back signal heads.  In fact, the Garden State has the most back to back signals anywhere? Plus along with CA, DE, and IL uses two signal heads for left turn signals while other states just follow MUCTD guidelines and go with one left turn signal head. I know this does not sound bad for most, but it is unique and there are some on this forum who do not like Jersey mast arm set ups.

Quote from: roadman65 on September 01, 2012, 11:44:22 AM
North Carolina uses two red ball signals for left turns.

New Jersey uses multiple mast arms at intersections as well as the only state to have signal heads on the left side of the road using back to back signal heads.  In fact, the Garden State has the most back to back signals anywhere? Plus along with CA, DE, and IL uses two signal heads for left turn signals while other states just follow MUCTD guidelines and go with one left turn signal head. I know this does not sound bad for most, but it is unique and there are some on this forum who do not like Jersey mast arm set ups.

It's an IDOT rule.  There must be two signal heads per movement, right turn or left turn signals, even five lamp towers, and a minimum of three signal heads per direction at each traffic signal.  That's why you'll see a typical setup of two towers, one pole-mounted on the left, one on the mastarm, and one three lamp signal head on the mastarm.  IDOT has had these rules for a long time, even when they used the trusses.

I hate when there are two through lanes at an intersection and you get to the other side, the two through lanes aren't striped.  Just a wide lane that ends 500 feet later.  They should paint a couple broken lines on the other side. 

In the case in the link below, you can see at the I-84 off-ramp there are two through lanes and you get to the other side (Reidville Dr) and there is nothing, just a wide lane that can handle two lanes that end 500-700 feet later.  It was built for it, why isn't it striped that way?!?! It was at one point. 

This leads cars to use the right lane as the through lane and the left lane as an left-turn only lane.  I went through inthe left lane and people were honking at me b/c they thought it was one lane going straight.

http://www.google.com/maps?q=scott+road,+waterbury,+ct&hl=en&ll=41.539136,-73.009182&spn=0.002056,0.00232&sll=41.500765,-72.757507&sspn=1.4893,2.375793&t=h&hnear=Scott+Rd,+Waterbury,+Connecticut&z=19

This happens countless times in CT.

Better idea: end one lane at the intersection as a turning lane.

Quote from: roadman65 on September 01, 2012, 11:44:22 AM
North Carolina uses two red ball signals for left turns.

New Jersey uses multiple mast arms at intersections as well as the only state to have signal heads on the left side of the road using back to back signal heads.  In fact, the Garden State has the most back to back signals anywhere? Plus along with CA, DE, and IL uses two signal heads for left turn signals while other states just follow MUCTD guidelines and go with one left turn signal head. I know this does not sound bad for most, but it is unique and there are some on this forum who do not like Jersey mast arm set ups.

Have you been to Wisconsin? We have back to back signals on the left side (far-side/stopbar), as well as a minimum of two signals for turn lanes.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages108.fotki.com%2Fv1583%2Fphotos%2F0%2F847780%2F10720305%2FIMG_5956-vi.jpg&hash=baf35269424af90315af557a47776fa88a328ed7)

Quote from: roadman65 on September 01, 2012, 11:44:22 AM
New Jersey uses multiple mast arms at intersections as well as the only state to have signal heads on the left side of the road using back to back signal heads.  In fact, the Garden State has the most back to back signals anywhere? Plus along with CA, DE, and IL uses two signal heads for left turn signals while other states just follow MUCTD guidelines and go with one left turn signal head. I know this does not sound bad for most, but it is unique and there are some on this forum who do not like Jersey mast arm set ups.

Nevada also uses back-to-back signal heads for left turns, particularly at very wide intersections in the Las Vegas area. There are several examples near/along the Las Vegas Strip.

New installations in Nevada, for the last 15 years or more, have always used a minimum of two signal heads for left turns--one overhead on the mast arm and one far left pole mount tends to be the norm. Generally speaking, all new signals in Nevada will have one overhead signal per lane, plus a far side pole mount. One of the things I like about Nevada is incredibly consistent signal design practices.

Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on August 30, 2012, 06:33:39 PM
Is the predominant use of span wire for traffic signals a regional practice? From my travels I associate that with the upper Midwest and the Southeast. If so, I vote "dislike".

Going to Florida for spring training when I was seven (mid-1980s): the moment I unwittingly became a roadgeek. Florida uses span wire, numbers exits and only requires one license plate? It's like another country!

Things I like about Minnesota traffic control
* Non span-wire, vertical only 12" signals with one on each side and one overhead for each lane and the street name on the signal.
* The state highway marker
* Both yield and merge signs used on freeway entrances.

Things I don't like
* No lighting on overhead signs.
* The "stretched font" for 3 digit interstates they used for a bit. (I saw some of it in Norfolk too)
* Spending all sorts of money on ADA complience for signals in the middle of nowhere.
* Too many protected only turns
* The new rectangular 3 digits state route shields that are sometimes used

I don't mind the 3-digit rectangular Minnesota shields, but I do wish they had kept '61 spec US markers like they had for a very long time after it was superseded by the 1970 standard.

as for stretched fonts - that's not region-specific: there are idiots who abuse Illustrator in every DOT office!

Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 31, 2012, 12:19:13 PM

Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 link=topic=7546.msg171449#msg171449Really, it's neither. Most of these light types I've encountered have been on gentle straightaways. I just like this visual indication of permissive left turns...a lot better than the vague "Left Turn Signal" signs and more flexible than our strict "Left on Green Arrow Only" policy here.

I'm used to permissive left turns being completely unsigned and unsignaled. 

at a "left turn yield on [green ball]", I think to myself "well, of course"... and recently, I have to pause for a moment to parse a flashing yellow arrow, to remember that it isn't any different from its absence.

The FYA has the added benefit of telling left-turning drivers what the opposing traffic's signal is. Consider a left turn with or without arrows - it doesn't matter in this case. If you're at an intersection with a green ball, waiting for a break in opposing traffic, and your side's green light turns yellow, lots of drivers may assume that the other direction's light is also turning red and will attempt to make the turn, not knowing that opposing traffic may have an extended green - which you may know as the yellow trap.

The FYA fixes this. If the FYA also turns solid yellow along with your intersection (or for any other reason), you know it will not be safe to proceed through the intersection. However, if the FYA continues flashing, even if your intersection turns solid yellow, then red, you will still have time to assess if it is safe to turn. The opposing traffic's left-turners may have just gotten a green arrow while their through traffic has an extended green. The FYA continuing to flash lets left-turners know that they still have an opportunity to make the turn, but they should still continue yielding to oncoming traffic. The FYA turning solid yellow lets them know that they should not proceed and cannot assume that they can make it safely through the intersection.

Granted, drivers should not be entering the intersection on a yellow if they are already at a full stop; however, lots of drivers, myself included, try to clear an intersection if they're making a left turn, and assume that opposing traffic will also come to a complete stop when they may in fact be getting an extended green, or the left-turners in the opposite direction are about to get a green light. However, in that case, through traffic should be getting a red, but left-turning traffic should still be able to yield. You cannot do that with only a green ball, but you can with a FYA, and the FYA gives you more information on what the signal is for opposing traffic.

To stay on-topic, here in Biloxi, MS, a few intersections omit the solid yellow arrow for protected/permissive turns. Some have a 4-head traffic signal, and the green arrow simply extinguishes to signal the end of the protected turn phase. These intersections have been that way as long as I can remember, so their lack of a solid yellow arrow may have been OK in the MUTCD when they were constructed.

Some other intersections also use a red ball as opposed to a red arrow for dedicated turn signals (not doghouses). This can lead to some confusion if drivers cannot see the through signals but instead assume the whole intersection has a red light when they can only see the left turn signals. It can be even worse if the through signals are disabled, like with the recent hurricane we just had. There are a bunch of signals that are still dead, even a few green arrows, and it can be very frustrating not having traffic move as smoothly as possible.

One thing I would like to see - FYA for right turns at intersections with light to moderate traffic, so that each person making a right doesn't necessarily need to make a complete stop. Oh, and green arrows for right-turning traffic when the perpendicular traffic has a green left-turn arrow. They need to do that more here.

Quote from: mp_quadrillion on September 04, 2012, 01:03:16 AM

Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on August 30, 2012, 06:33:39 PM
Is the predominant use of span wire for traffic signals a regional practice? From my travels I associate that with the upper Midwest and the Southeast. If so, I vote "dislike".

Going to Florida for spring training when I was seven (mid-1980s): the moment I unwittingly became a roadgeek. Florida uses span wire, numbers exits and only requires one license plate? It's like another country!

Most new signal assemblies are mast arms.  I read somewhere on a roadgeek site that within 10 miles of the coast only mast arms could be used.  Inland you still see new span wires. I like a neat span wire assembly

What is different about the 10 miles nearest the coast that makes it acceptable to put mastarms there?

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 05, 2012, 07:45:22 PM
What is different about the 10 miles nearest the coast that makes it acceptable to put mastarms there?

I'm guessing it has to do with tropical storms.  they probably decided that some statistically important portion of them have high winds only 10 miles or closer to shore.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 05, 2012, 09:10:55 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 05, 2012, 07:45:22 PM
What is different about the 10 miles nearest the coast that makes it acceptable to put mastarms there?

I'm guessing it has to do with tropical storms.  they probably decided that some statistically important portion of them have high winds only 10 miles or closer to shore.

Biloxi, MS has a mix of span-wire and mast arms, but I'd wager that most intersections south of the Back Bay use span-wire. The one place you see a lot of mast arm signals are in downtown near all the casinos and all along US 90.

Quote from: Ace10 on October 05, 2012, 12:37:18 PM

Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 31, 2012, 12:19:13 PM

Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 link=topic=7546.msg171449#msg171449Really, it's neither. Most of these light types I've encountered have been on gentle straightaways. I just like this visual indication of permissive left turns...a lot better than the vague "Left Turn Signal" signs and more flexible than our strict "Left on Green Arrow Only" policy here.

I'm used to permissive left turns being completely unsigned and unsignaled. 

at a "left turn yield on [green ball]", I think to myself "well, of course"... and recently, I have to pause for a moment to parse a flashing yellow arrow, to remember that it isn't any different from its absence.

The FYA has the added benefit of telling left-turning drivers what the opposing traffic's signal is.

No more so than a five lamp tower.  You still can't tell what signal opposing traffic is getting.  A simple solution is to simply not allow the left turn if opposing traffic has a green light and a green left arrow instead of the Dallas phasing bullshit.

Quote from: Brandon on October 06, 2012, 12:54:32 AM
You still can't tell what signal opposing traffic is getting.

Only if the engineers fucked up. A flashing yellow is supposed to be tied to the opposing green, coming on even next to a red ball.

Quote from: Brandon on October 06, 2012, 12:54:32 AM
No more so than a five lamp tower.  You still can't tell what signal opposing traffic is getting.  A simple solution is to simply not allow the left turn if opposing traffic has a green light and a green left arrow instead of the Dallas phasing bullshit.

Agreed.  The FYA is only necessary because of stupid signal phasing in some states combined with stupid drivers.  A properly phased signal has no such thing as yellow trap, especially if the laws are properly set to legally allow vehicles to be in an intersection with a red light provided that they entered when the light was not red and leave at the earliest opportunity.  If Dallas phasing produces these problems, the solution is not FYAs, but to outlaw Dallas phasing.

Quote from: deanej on October 06, 2012, 10:21:31 AM

Quote from: Brandon on October 06, 2012, 12:54:32 AM
No more so than a five lamp tower.  You still can't tell what signal opposing traffic is getting.  A simple solution is to simply not allow the left turn if opposing traffic has a green light and a green left arrow instead of the Dallas phasing bullshit.

Agreed.  The FYA is only necessary because of stupid signal phasing in some states combined with stupid drivers.  A properly phased signal has no such thing as yellow trap, especially if the laws are properly set to legally allow vehicles to be in an intersection with a red light provided that they entered when the light was not red and leave at the earliest opportunity.  If Dallas phasing produces these problems, the solution is not FYAs, but to outlaw Dallas phasing.

Dallas Phasing and the FYA are supposed to prevent the yellow trap, not produce it. The problem with Dallas Phasing, however, is that the permissive left turn is shown as a green ball while the through movement is shown as a red ball.

Depending on traffic patterns, a FYA being displayed at the same time that the through movement has a red light can be beneficial. If the vehicles turning left can still make it through the intersection on a FYA, there's no reason to prevent them by displaying red on all signals. At a certain time of day, there just may be a lot of people in the opposing direction turning left, but not much through traffic.

Dallas Phasing and the FYA both allow the subject left-turning vehicles to turn, but the FYA has the added benefit of not displaying conflicting signals at the same time for left-turn and through traffic, and also does not require special modifications to the signals to prevent through traffic from seeing the left-turn signal. The arrow itself also clearly communicates what direction the lane is for - unfamiliar drivers in a heavy rainstorm may not see the "Left Turn Signal" and "Left Turn Yield on Green" signs, and try to go straight through the intersection, for instance. The FYA removes this kind of ambiguity and, in my opinion, doesn't introduce more ambiguity than it removes.

This being said, there's already a thread about the FYA (http://"https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=2983.75") with a ton of information and opinion about it.

That's why you're supposed to have a doghouse, and not a left turn signal, in that situation.  Left turn signals should only be used for fully protected left turns, and those should be avoided wherever possible.

All of these problems could be avoided by ending the overuse of dedicated left turn signals.  Upstate NY gets it right: doghouses if a protected left turn phase is needed, left turn signal as a last resort only.

Wisconsin:
Like: Many Milwaukee traffic signals go to flashing yellow/red when traffic dies down.
Like: Passing areas on the right when the left turn is taking too long on rural roads.
Like: The increasing number of roundabouts.

Michigan:
Like: As described in a previous post, two lane roads have passing zones every few miles.
Not sure: Michigan left.

Illinois:
Like: Generous interpretation of speed limits on Chicago area interstates (generally).
Dislike: Roads seem to be designed to generate the maximum number of stops via traffic signals (IL 59, I'm looking at you).
Dislike: General poor quality of pavement. Particularly noticeable after a trip to Wisconsin.

In Nebraska:
1.  I like the diagrammatic intersection signs, even if only for the uniqueness, although they seem inconsistently applied even in rural areas. (I've never seen one in a town.)
2. I'm not a fan of the link and spur numbering (lettering?) system.  should just be all numbers.
3. I work overnights, and there is no rhyme or reason to which traffic signals at night are blinking and which ones you have to sit thru, plus there is no logic to how they work, either.  One of them at night I have to pass through on the way home automatically gives a left-turn signal to oncoming traffic even when there is no left-turning traffic, which is pretty much every time. (This may be strictly an Omaha problem, or an Omaha area problem.)

Quote from: deanej on October 07, 2012, 11:43:47 AM
That's why you're supposed to have a doghouse, and not a left turn signal, in that situation.  Left turn signals should only be used for fully protected left turns, and those should be avoided wherever possible.

All of these problems could be avoided by ending the overuse of dedicated left turn signals.  Upstate NY gets it right: doghouses if a protected left turn phase is needed, left turn signal as a last resort only.

I believe you're confusing terminology here...  A "doghouse" is a type of left turn signal. The doghouse allows for protected-permitted left turns, whereas a 3-section all-arrow display (your standard left turn signal display) is only used for protected turns.

You seem very rigid on the use of doghouse displays versus a standard left turn signal. Maybe it works well in upstate NY and other places, but there are instances elsewhere where using a doghouse alone for controlling left turns either isn't feasible or can be confusing. The FYA display helps mitigate that.

Quote from: roadfro on October 08, 2012, 05:04:00 AM

I believe you're confusing terminology here...  A "doghouse" is a type of left turn signal. The doghouse allows for protected-permitted left turns, whereas a 3-section all-arrow display (your standard left turn signal display) is only used for protected turns.

The 3-section all-arrow display is not standard here.  We don't do fully protected left turns very often, and that's the way it should be.

Quote
You seem very rigid on the use of doghouse displays versus a standard left turn signal. Maybe it works well in upstate NY and other places, but there are instances elsewhere where using a doghouse alone for controlling left turns either isn't feasible or can be confusing. The FYA display helps mitigate that.

I cannot think of any situation where a doghouse isn't feasible except fully protected left turns, which would not use a FYA, and it is in no way confusing.

Please read up on the left turn trap and why a doghouse doesn't solve it (unless you use a confusing green on the doghouse when other lights have a red ball): http://projects.kittelson.com/pplt/LearnAbout/Learn3.htm

Quote from: NE2 on October 08, 2012, 11:39:00 AM
http://projects.kittelson.com/pplt/LearnAbout/Learn3.htm

It seems the phasing/timing that allows for the "Left Turn Trap" is the true problem.  PennDOT (in my experience) is very good in avoiding such nonsense.

Quote from: Mr_Northside on October 08, 2012, 03:56:54 PM

Quote from: NE2 on October 08, 2012, 11:39:00 AM
http://projects.kittelson.com/pplt/LearnAbout/Learn3.htm

It seems the phasing/timing that allows for the "Left Turn Trap" is the true problem.  PennDOT (in my experience) is very good in avoiding such nonsense.

You most likely pay for that in the form of excessive red arrows or badly-timed arterials. Lead-lag phasing is an integral part of a well-timed signal progession that lets drivers get a number of greens in a row.

PA dislikes

1.  Use of STOP signs as speed control on non-PennDOT roads (a MUTCD no-no).  One road near me was once a PennDOT road but was stripped of its designation (SR 2016 IIRC along Franklin Ave. in Ridley Township, Delaware County) back ing the mid-to-late 90s so that the township could erect 3 (later 4) sets of STOP signs facing the main thoroughfare; one of them is even for a Dead-End road entrance.

2.  Speed limits of 15 mph for both side streets and school zones.

3.  Innaugural use of the now-infamous Clearview font.

likes

MA's use of paddle LGS'

Quote from: NE2 on October 08, 2012, 11:39:00 AM
Please read up on the left turn trap and why a doghouse doesn't solve it (unless you use a confusing green on the doghouse when other lights have a red ball): http://projects.kittelson.com/pplt/LearnAbout/Learn3.htm

Easily avoidable by having both directions go yellow at the same time.  That's how InDOT, IDOT, MDOT, and WisDOT all do it when they use a leading left turn and a permissible left turn signal (be it a tower or doghouse).  The FYA is superfluous and unnecessary when the permissive phase is used correctly as the yellow trap never exists in the first place.

Quote from: Brandon on October 08, 2012, 06:55:20 PM
Easily avoidable by having both directions go yellow at the same time.  That's how InDOT, IDOT, MDOT, and WisDOT all do it when they use a leading left turn and a permissible left turn signal (be it a tower or doghouse).  The FYA is superfluous and unnecessary when the permissive phase is used correctly as the yellow trap never exists in the first place.

Quote from: NE2 on October 08, 2012, 04:27:24 PM
You most likely pay for that in the form of excessive red arrows or badly-timed arterials. Lead-lag phasing is an integral part of a well-timed signal progession that lets drivers get a number of greens in a row.

I kind of like Arizona's exit tabs, i.e. square corners with rounded borders:
(https://www.aaroads.com/west/arizona010/i-010_eb_exit_281_03.jpg)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.markyville.com%2Faaroads%2FLibrary1.png&hash=ed18d50c111d1d92e56bd6348e9785f424d6947e)

'61 spec US-395 green and white shield for California?

Guess I'll put it here, and see if people agree - Louisiana has a laissez-faire approach to state shields. Some 3di and 4di roads are on a 30x24 shield with Series D, some 3di and 2di roads are on 24x24 with either Series D or C, and some are on a cartoonish version of the state. One contractor signed the entire LA 1 corridor with the 30x24 shields, except for one intersection, where the normal 24x24 is used. The state said that the contractors have the freedom to put up any shield they would like; that proved true, as a brand new green and white shield has been put up, with the Interstate state shield design (green and white with a widened generic outline), on a highway that doesn't even go anywhere near an Interstate.

Also, the signing of new routes with a new number instead of a spur of an old number.

Quote from: mcdonaat on October 09, 2012, 01:26:32 AM
The state said that the contractors have the freedom to put up any shield they would like;

:wow: :confused: :banghead:

I sure hope that really isn't the case. LaDOT should have some uniformity and expect contractors to follow specs.

Quote from: PHLBOS on October 08, 2012, 05:25:29 PM
PA dislikes
3.  Innaugural use of the now-infamous Clearview font.

Depends on where you go in the state, but yeah, PennDOT and the PTC both abuse Clearview. Philadelphia has lately been replacing their iconic blades with ugly mixed-case Clearview ones. They are the same shape, though. The worst are at the newly-two-way Cottman Ave/PA 73 near I-95, and on the Boulevard at the new pedestrian signals. Clearview 1s. >.<

But I hear other states replace signs with Clearview for no reason at all, and still others, like MA and WI, shun it. :D

Quote from: mcdonaat on October 09, 2012, 01:26:32 AMInterstate state shield design (green and white with a widened generic outline)

I cannot visualize this.  got a photo?

if contractors have the freedom to put up whatever they want to, then why are there so few pelican shields?  :sombrero:

Quote from: Roadsguy on October 09, 2012, 09:21:00 AM
other states replace signs with Clearview for no reason at all

*coughVDOTcough*

Quote from: Brandon on October 08, 2012, 06:55:20 PM

Quote from: NE2 on October 08, 2012, 11:39:00 AM
Please read up on the left turn trap and why a doghouse doesn't solve it (unless you use a confusing green on the doghouse when other lights have a red ball): http://projects.kittelson.com/pplt/LearnAbout/Learn3.htm

Easily avoidable by having both directions go yellow at the same time.  That's how InDOT, IDOT, MDOT, and WisDOT all do it when they use a leading left turn and a permissible left turn signal (be it a tower or doghouse).  The FYA is superfluous and unnecessary when the permissive phase is used correctly as the yellow trap never exists in the first place.

Or adding an all-red phase.  Yellow does not mean "stop unless you can't".  It means "you can still go if you want, but I'm just warning you that the light will turn red soon, so be prepared for that".  As such, phases with yellow trap are just plain irresponsible and should get the engineers who designed them fired.

wait, just to clarify... "yellow trap" means "vehicle intending to turn right and getting yellow assumes oncoming traffic also gets yellow and will roll to a stop"?  correct?

anyone getting yellow trapped has never driven in Los Angeles, where the correct and expected behavior on a yellow is to floor it.

Quote from: Roadsguy on October 09, 2012, 09:21:00 AM

Quote from: PHLBOS on October 08, 2012, 05:25:29 PM
PA dislikes
3.  Innaugural use of the now-infamous Clearview font.

Depends on where you go in the state, but yeah, PennDOT and the PTC both abuse Clearview. Philadelphia has lately been replacing their iconic blades with ugly mixed-case Clearview ones. They are the same shape, though. The worst are at the newly-two-way Cottman Ave/PA 73 near I-95, and on the Boulevard at the new pedestrian signals. Clearview 1s. >.<

But I hear other states replace signs with Clearview for no reason at all, and still others, like MA and WI, shun it. :D

My point is that the Clearview font originated in PA roughly 7 to 8 years ago.

Re:  yellow trap...

I always thought 'yellow trap' meant pulling into the intersection during a solid green phase with the intention of turning left, still being there when the light turns red, but being unable to clear the intersection due to oncoming traffic's still having a green light (and thereby becoming an obstacle to oncoming, left-turning traffic, as well as looking to any cop like you're running the red light).  In that situation, a flashing yellow left arrow would alert the driver that it's still OK to turn left, but only after yielding to oncoming traffic which still has a green light.

You might call these situations poor planning, but the fact remains that they exist in many locations; especially where there are stoplights in close proximity to a railroad crossing, stoplight phases can get complicated.  Requiring all stoplights with a yellow trap to change their timings is not a more reasonable solution than simply allowing a FYA to be used.

Re:  yellow lights...

In some states, a yellow light does indeed mean STOP.  By law.  Minnesota, I'm looking at you.

Sigh. What's so bloody hard about this? Yellow trap is for *left* turns at the end of a phase, when the other direction still has green (kphoger is correct). It happens whenever you have a lead-lag phase (which is often necessary for good signal progression), and other than signal modifications such as the FYA, the only solution is to change it to a protected left turn.

So next time you're sitting at a red arrow, knowing it's safe to turn but legally prohibited from doing so, remember that it could have been a flashing yellow. And that if it's on a busy corridor with many lights, there's a good chance that it could not have been a normal doghouse.

Quote from: NE2 on October 08, 2012, 11:39:00 AM
Please read up on the left turn trap and why a doghouse doesn't solve it (unless you use a confusing green on the doghouse when other lights have a red ball): http://projects.kittelson.com/pplt/LearnAbout/Learn3.htm

Texas with their urban freeway frontage roads.  It allows you to access all cross streets ecspecially the ones that do not interchange.

New Jersey jughandles are good at keeping slow traffic to the right.  Not good on two lane roads, though.
Jersey Freeways are good as it keeps traffic signals out of urban areas, Paramus, Hackensack, Clifton,etc.

DE, CA, NJ, IL are all good with two left turn signal heads and spacing out through signal heads so the light can be seen when behind a truck.  Even at 300 feet behind a delivery truck, the view of the signal is blocked, especially here in Florida.

Florida stinks with signals and timings.  Too many of them in Orlando and no signal in Florida is state operated even on state highways!  They are run locally and local engineers do not look at highways as such, but as another street and therefore time the lights to short wait times on side streets during off peak hours thus causing stop and go on large arteries like John Young Parkway, and Orange Blossom Trail.

Plus, in Florida you cannot proceed across the stop bar unless you can make the left turn.  New Jersey allows left turn motorists to pull out into the intersections to make a left in heavy traffic, so if the signal turns you can still go on yellow or red.  Florida, we have to wait for the next green to try again.  Luckily most signals here have a protected left arrow or else you would have to wait four or five changes to turn.

Quote from: roadman65 on October 09, 2012, 03:43:42 PM
....

Plus, in Florida you cannot proceed across the stop bar unless you can make the left turn.  New Jersey allows left turn motorists to pull out into the intersections to make a left in heavy traffic, so if the signal turns you can still go on yellow or red.  Florida, we have to wait for the next green to try again.  Luckily most signals here have a protected left arrow or else you would have to wait four or five changes to turn.

Hmmm, I've had people in Florida honk at me when I waited behind the stop bar while waiting to turn left. I had no idea what Florida law might be, I just seldom pull out into the intersection anymore (even though I used to do it) because over the years I've found that as large SUVs and pickups become more and more common, I can see better if I stay back behind the stop line and pull farther to the left in the turn lane.

I seem to recall reading a list of states in which it is illegal to be in the intersection when the light turns red (meaning the "wait in the intersection" move would be illegal if you clear it after the light is red), but I can't find that list now.

Quote from: roadman65 on October 09, 2012, 03:43:42 PM
Plus, in Florida you cannot proceed across the stop bar unless you can make the left turn.

[citation needed]
I don't see anything clearly stating this:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0300-0399/0316/Sections/0316.075.html
http://www.flhsmv.gov/handbooks/EnglishDriverHandbook.pdf (p. 41)

And note this: http://www.dot.state.fl.us/safety/ped_bike/laws/ped_bike_pedLaws2.shtm "For a driver still waiting in the intersection to make a permitted left turn..."

Quote from: 1995hoo on October 09, 2012, 03:52:24 PM

Quote from: roadman65 on October 09, 2012, 03:43:42 PM
....

Plus, in Florida you cannot proceed across the stop bar unless you can make the left turn.  New Jersey allows left turn motorists to pull out into the intersections to make a left in heavy traffic, so if the signal turns you can still go on yellow or red.  Florida, we have to wait for the next green to try again.  Luckily most signals here have a protected left arrow or else you would have to wait four or five changes to turn.

Hmmm, I've had people in Florida honk at me when I waited behind the stop bar while waiting to turn left. I had no idea what Florida law might be, I just seldom pull out into the intersection anymore (even though I used to do it) because over the years I've found that as large SUVs and pickups become more and more common, I can see better if I stay back behind the stop line and pull farther to the left in the turn lane.

I seem to recall reading a list of states in which it is illegal to be in the intersection when the light turns red (meaning the "wait in the intersection" move would be illegal if you clear it after the light is red), but I can't find that list now.

Funny. Here in Orlando almost everbody does it.  Only on Millenia Boulevard at Millenia Lakes Drive you must pull out as the median landscape prevents you from seeing on coming traffic when behind the line.

Quote from: Roadsguy on October 09, 2012, 09:21:00 AM
But I hear other states replace signs with Clearview for no reason at all, and still others, like MA and WI, shun it. :D

Also Utah and Colorado shun Clearview too. Unsure whether New Mexico uses Clearview at all.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 09, 2012, 10:08:58 AM

Quote from: mcdonaat on October 09, 2012, 01:26:32 AMInterstate state shield design (green and white with a widened generic outline)

I cannot visualize this.  got a photo?

if contractors have the freedom to put up whatever they want to, then why are there so few pelican shields?  :sombrero:

What is a pelican shield?

Quote from: roadman65 on October 09, 2012, 04:07:40 PM
Only on Millenia Boulevard at Millenia Lakes Drive you must pull out as the median landscape prevents you from seeing on coming traffic when behind the line.

Well that wasn't planned very well...  :rolleyes:

Quote from: national highway 1 on October 09, 2012, 07:55:31 PM
What is a pelican shield?

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/LA/LA19311711i1.jpg)

Quote from: roadman65 on October 09, 2012, 03:43:42 PM
Plus, in Florida you cannot proceed across the stop bar unless you can make the left turn.  New Jersey allows left turn motorists to pull out into the intersections to make a left in heavy traffic, so if the signal turns you can still go on yellow or red.  Florida, we have to wait for the next green to try again.  Luckily most signals here have a protected left arrow or else you would have to wait four or five changes to turn.

I'm mixed on whether that is really such a good thing - I've seen many instances where two or three cars will get into the intersection then turn when the light changes.  Problem is they don't clear the intersection before the perpendicular movements get a green ball or arrow, and can start to significantly eat the green time for these movements.  The practice also leads to a number of left turn crashes where the vehicle turning left thinks the opposing through vehicle is going to stop for the yellow so they start their left turn.  Problem is the through vehicle is instead pushing the light so they cream the left turner.

The problem with a blanket ban on the practice is the case where a vehicle starts to turn left permissively but has to stop the turn due to an opposing vehicle that has turned out of a nearby driveway.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 08, 2012, 07:18:47 PM
'61 spec US-395 green and white shield for California?

That's the shield I requested and received from you.  Actually you sent me a white '61 spec US shield and I modified it to try to replicate the older outline US shield California used on guide signs.  I know it's not quite right but it was close enough for what I wanted it for.  Anyways, both shields (white and green) were added to my library.

Quote from: NE2 on October 09, 2012, 02:48:24 PM
Sigh. What's so bloody hard about this? Yellow trap is for *left* turns at the end of a phase, when the other direction still has green (kphoger is correct). It happens whenever you have a lead-lag phase (which is often necessary for good signal progression), and other than signal modifications such as the FYA, the only solution is to change it to a protected left turn.

So next time you're sitting at a red arrow, knowing it's safe to turn but legally prohibited from doing so, remember that it could have been a flashing yellow. And that if it's on a busy corridor with many lights, there's a good chance that it could not have been a normal doghouse.

Doghouses work just fine in this situation here in upstate NY.  I don't see how the yellow trap is anything but badly timed signals.  Waiting two seconds to start the other side's green while the light is yellow and turning red won't kill signal progression.

Quote from: Revive 755 on October 09, 2012, 10:13:04 PM

Quote from: roadman65 on October 09, 2012, 03:43:42 PM
Plus, in Florida you cannot proceed across the stop bar unless you can make the left turn.  New Jersey allows left turn motorists to pull out into the intersections to make a left in heavy traffic, so if the signal turns you can still go on yellow or red.  Florida, we have to wait for the next green to try again.  Luckily most signals here have a protected left arrow or else you would have to wait four or five changes to turn.

I'm mixed on whether that is really such a good thing - I've seen many instances where two or three cars will get into the intersection then turn when the light changes.  Problem is they don't clear the intersection before the perpendicular movements get a green ball or arrow, and can start to significantly eat the green time for these movements.  The practice also leads to a number of left turn crashes where the vehicle turning left thinks the opposing through vehicle is going to stop for the yellow so they start their left turn.  Problem is the through vehicle is instead pushing the light so they cream the left turner.

The problem with a blanket ban on the practice is the case where a vehicle starts to turn left permissively but has to stop the turn due to an opposing vehicle that has turned out of a nearby driveway.

At least in NY, our law is that only the first car in the left turn lane can pull forward; others have to wait behind the stop line.  Nobody follows it, though.

Quote from: deanej on October 10, 2012, 11:46:01 AM

Quote from: NE2 on October 09, 2012, 02:48:24 PM
Sigh. What's so bloody hard about this? Yellow trap is for *left* turns at the end of a phase, when the other direction still has green (kphoger is correct). It happens whenever you have a lead-lag phase (which is often necessary for good signal progression), and other than signal modifications such as the FYA, the only solution is to change it to a protected left turn.

So next time you're sitting at a red arrow, knowing it's safe to turn but legally prohibited from doing so, remember that it could have been a flashing yellow. And that if it's on a busy corridor with many lights, there's a good chance that it could not have been a normal doghouse.

Doghouses work just fine in this situation here in upstate NY.  I don't see how the yellow trap is anything but badly timed signals.  Waiting two seconds to start the other side's green while the light is yellow and turning red won't kill signal progression.

I don't think you're understanding the nature of what the yellow trap is. Yellow trap occurs when a permitted left turn (using standard doghouse) terminates with the adjacent green, but opposing through traffic is already green and is remaining green due to a lagging left turn in the opposite direction. The "trap" occurs when a driver pulling out to make the permitted left thinks the opposing through traffic will also be ending with the adjacent through traffic, turning to clear the intersection in front of oncoming traffic that is not stopping.

See the link NE2 posted in an earlier reply. The animation on the page demonstrates the yellow trap pretty clearly, alongside another animation which shows how an FYA signal avoids the problem.

Quote from: deanej on October 10, 2012, 11:46:01 AM
Doghouses work just fine in this situation here in upstate NY.  I don't see how the yellow trap is anything but badly timed signals.  Waiting two seconds to start the other side's green while the light is yellow and turning red won't kill signal progression.

The other side's green *is not starting*. It's already green, and is staying green.

Quote from: myosh_tino on October 10, 2012, 01:46:59 AM
That's the shield I requested and received from you.  Actually you sent me a white '61 spec US shield and I modified it to try to replicate the older outline US shield California used on guide signs.  I know it's not quite right but it was close enough for what I wanted it for.  Anyways, both shields (white and green) were added to my library.

yeah sometime I need to assemble the '57 spec outline shields.  I have the spec, but have been too lazy to turn a lengths-and-radii description into a working vector.

no one's ordered one from me yet... would be cool to make one, even if scaled down a bit!

Quote from: roadfro on October 10, 2012, 12:01:08 PM

Quote from: deanej on October 10, 2012, 11:46:01 AM

Quote from: NE2 on October 09, 2012, 02:48:24 PM
Sigh. What's so bloody hard about this? Yellow trap is for *left* turns at the end of a phase, when the other direction still has green (kphoger is correct). It happens whenever you have a lead-lag phase (which is often necessary for good signal progression), and other than signal modifications such as the FYA, the only solution is to change it to a protected left turn.

So next time you're sitting at a red arrow, knowing it's safe to turn but legally prohibited from doing so, remember that it could have been a flashing yellow. And that if it's on a busy corridor with many lights, there's a good chance that it could not have been a normal doghouse.

Doghouses work just fine in this situation here in upstate NY.  I don't see how the yellow trap is anything but badly timed signals.  Waiting two seconds to start the other side's green while the light is yellow and turning red won't kill signal progression.

I don't think you're understanding the nature of what the yellow trap is. Yellow trap occurs when a permitted left turn (using standard doghouse) terminates with the adjacent green, but opposing through traffic is already green and is remaining green due to a lagging left turn in the opposite direction. The "trap" occurs when a driver pulling out to make the permitted left thinks the opposing through traffic will also be ending with the adjacent through traffic, turning to clear the intersection in front of oncoming traffic that is not stopping.

See the link NE2 posted in an earlier reply. The animation on the page demonstrates the yellow trap pretty clearly, alongside another animation which shows how an FYA signal avoids the problem.

You're describing a situation that is completely different than what is shown in the animation you are citing.  In the animation, the doghouse is in the protected phase for the left along with a green for straight traffic in that direction; the other side is red, as is required for the protected left.  The light goes green for all traffic in the opposing direction at the same time as the light goes yellow for the direction the animation is using to illustrate "yellow trap".  That is when the accident to illustrate the yellow trap occurs.  Had the light waited to go green for the opposing direction until after the yellow phase was over, there would be no yellow trap, and no need for a FYA.

Quote from: NE2 on October 10, 2012, 12:05:21 PM

Quote from: deanej on October 10, 2012, 11:46:01 AM
Doghouses work just fine in this situation here in upstate NY.  I don't see how the yellow trap is anything but badly timed signals.  Waiting two seconds to start the other side's green while the light is yellow and turning red won't kill signal progression.

The other side's green *is not starting*. It's already green, and is staying green.

That is not what is shown in the animation, and if you have a permissive left ending with the other end staying green like that, you have a poorly timed signal.

I think you mentioned cost earlier too, but isn't it cheaper to re-time a signal than it is to replace it completely with a FYA?  One requires the cost of changing one line of a database: $0.  The other involves the cost of new signal heads: $(a lot).

Quote from: deanej on October 10, 2012, 02:45:20 PM
You're describing a situation that is completely different than what is shown in the animation you are citing.  In the animation, the doghouse is in the protected phase for the left along with a green for straight traffic in that direction; the other side is red, as is required for the protected left.  The light goes green for all traffic in the opposing direction at the same time as the light goes yellow for the direction the animation is using to illustrate "yellow trap".

The fuck? You're talking about this animation, right? http://projects.kittelson.com/pplt/LearnAbout/Learn3.htm I count 10 seconds between both directions getting a green and northbound turning yellow. That would probably be at least a minute in the real world.

Quote from: deanej on October 10, 2012, 02:45:20 PM
if you have a permissive left ending with the other end staying green like that, you have a poorly timed signal.

You bloody well don't if the lead-lag is necessary for efficent progression with adjacent intersections.
http://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/progreso.htm
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmidimagic.sgc-hosting.com%2Fpran3.gif&hash=e40c773fc56760e3051e74193c8d3d0514115b71)
(not the best animation, but the only one I could find; note how the center two intersections have offset green phases)

I haven't read the whole thing, but http://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/lagtrap.htm looks like a good description of the problem and solutions.

I think my computer botched the rendering the first time I saw it, because it now conforms to what you're saying.  That or my brain was spacing out.  Neither would surprise me.

I think this comes down to the fact that upstate NY doesn't use lead-lag, in fact, we don't place any kind of priority on efficient progression at all.  The theory is that if you want free-flow, you should quit complaining and get on the freeway, and tough if there aren't any around.  At one time the city plans for upstate included freeways parallel to every high traffic corridor of the type you describe.  It's normal for vehicles to sit at every light in such corridors here, and it's the accepted norm.  The only exceptions I can think of are NY 441 (which is a recent exception at that, and probably the reason why it's getting the first FYA in the state) and NY 332 (which accomplishes this by screwing over the side streets and giving them only two seconds of green for every five minutes NY 332 gets; this was probably done because NY 332 should have been made a freeway 20-30 years ago but probably never will be anything more than the expressway it is now).