N.Y. Times: Gasoline Runs Short, Adding Woes to Storm Recovery (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/03/nyregion/recovery-efforts-after-hurricane-sandy.html)
QuoteUNION, N.J. – Widespread gas shortages stirred fears among residents and disrupted some rescue and emergency services as the New York region struggled to return to a semblance of normalcy after being ravaged by Hurricane Sandy.
QuoteTiny increments of progress – some subway and bus lines were back in service – in the aftermath of what officials are calling the worst storm to hit New York City continued on Friday. But they were overshadowed by new estimates of the storm's financial cost, struggles to restore power, and by the discovery of more bodies in flooded communities.
QuoteIn Union, the lines of cars waiting for gas at a Sunoco on Thursday ran in three directions: a mile-long line up the Garden State Parkway, a half-mile line along Vauxhall Road, and another, including a fleet of mail trucks that needed to refuel before resuming their rounds, snaking through a back entrance. The scene was being replayed across the state as drivers waited in lines that ran hundreds of vehicles deep, requiring state troopers and local police officers to protect against exploding tempers.
Simple Solution..HEAD SOUTH NJTP Exit 5/I-295 Exit 47...Gas is 3.33-3.37 a gal cash. Plenty of fuel here.
Quote from: SteveG1988 on November 02, 2012, 09:17:50 AM
Simple Solution..HEAD SOUTH NJTP Exit 5/I-295 Exit 47...Gas is 3.33-3.37 a gal cash. Plenty of fuel here.
You're assuming that everyone's still got enough gas in their tanks in order to get there. While that may be the case for some; other's might be already on 'fumes' so to speak.
The line at Hess on 10th Ave. and 45th in Manhattan was two lanes wide and stretched down to 37th Street yesterday.
While there are certainly some who can't make it to a more distant station to fill up, I have to imagine at least some motorists who should certainly consider it. I haven't noticed any unusual situations at the stations near me in the Bronx.
Head south is good advice. No lines at the Parkway service areas once in Ocean County
To add, gas lines are nuts in Union County right now, particularly on US-22 in Union Township. At 5am people were lined up on both the left and right shoulders of the highway in both directions waiting for the stations to open up. Wait times have gotten up to 2-3 hours in areas. Whats sad is that many smaller off-highway stations have power, but aren't getting any fuel deliveries.
The only good news is more stations are slowly getting power and opening up.
For me, I can either head north and east to NY/CT and refill there, or head south to the Trenton area. I would burn about 4 gallons to head to Trenton and back, which absolutely negates any per-gallon savings I would get vs. biting the bullet and driving north on my planned trip. (Life goes on, and that includes route clinching.)
Major gas lines in westchester county yesterday and today so I'm not sure coming over here would do much for you. Friend of mine went out at midnight last night to get gas and returned home at 145AM (white plains ny). Lines were present as far as West Point ny I heard this morning. I think this is more a perception issue in westchester causing people to panic. There is plenty of gas but everyone wants it at the same time. Gas was easy to get in Stamford ct on wednesday, but heard its getting tough there too today.
Looks like the real issues are those in the neighborhoods worst hit like those that have a lot of people without power...people standing in lines with cans for thier generators right next to people trying to fill up there cars. My boss saw two people get in a shoving match off I 95 yesterday afternoon.
This whole thing is pretty painful, but the fuel shortage or the "run" on gas been the most surprising to me. No way I am headed out tomorrow. There is a bit of a breakdown going on and I'd rather stay at my house which is now totally off the grid powered by 30000kw generator with 1000 gallon propane tank. Thank god I bought a house that had one of these, bc this is not something I would have ever bought myself.
http://www.northjersey.com/news/bergen/License_plate_gas_restrictions_take_effect_Saturday_at_noon.html?page=all
Quote from: empirestate on November 02, 2012, 02:16:31 PM
The line at Hess on 10th Ave. and 45th in Manhattan was two lanes wide and stretched down to 37th Street yesterday.
While there are certainly some who can't make it to a more distant station to fill up, I have to imagine at least some motorists who should certainly consider it. I haven't noticed any unusual situations at the stations near me in the Bronx.
To update myself, upon taking a closer look, the stations near me in the Bronx that have no lines are not selling gas at the moment. I am increasingly glad I filled up on Saturday before the storm. (And as to my sorrow at losing my parking-space-that-wasn't-under-a-tree, I got it back the next day with due vigilance. And the tree I had meanwhile been parked under didn't fall anyway.)
NPR had a story on this this morning. As they put it, the vast majority of stations have either gas or power, but not both. Trucks delivering gas can't get through (or can't fill up themselves due to power outages at the distribution points), and stations with no power can't pump the gas they have. As more stations get power back things should calm down, hopefully.
This was followed by a story about some economists who think that the stations should be free to charge $25 per gallon to help curb the demand for gas. Their reasoning is that would keep people from buying more than they strictly need (buying half a tank instead of filling up; filling one gas can instead of six like one customer was reported doing in the story). Apparently there are state laws in place that prohibit raising the price.
There is a set of laws against that. I read something stating that in a state of emergency gas prices are capped at what they were when the emergency was declared.
I am as free market as anyone, but I think letting a supply/demand situation play out will lead to panic. Most people would say demand for gas is price in-elastic but that only applies to a point and I am sure 25 bucks a gallon would stop some people...although this area is not poor and it's getting really cold out, so the price may need to be even higher to really curb demand.
In the short term I think the best way to curb demand is to limit purchases to 25 or 30 dollars worth of gas at the old market price of about 4-4.50 a gallon. This will slow any further panic and still give people the fuel they need with crushing them in cost terms. It will, however, create lines.
Longer term the government needs to be careful not to set a price ceiling that is uncompetitive. If they do that (was tried in the 1970s I believe) they will definitely get shortages. Hopefully it doesn't come to that.
Once power returns to most (couple of days) this should calm down. I will be waiting until nov 12th according to con Edison. What a mess this is.
I was sent a breaking news update from NY times that they are sending in the army to deliver gas and get some stations back online. Even if they just generate the pumps to allow for gas. Sad thing is northern Jersey has all that gas in those storage tanks right next to I-95. Too bad need power to pump them.
This is what Houston was like during Ike. It sucked! But the best thing everyone down here did first was fill their car. Then everyone with a generator filled their cans. Also heard Christy is putting a ration on gas, cars only, X amount per fill up to get cars off the street near the stations.
If you have a new construction home, get a LP/Natural Gas generator added to the home, added to the house note. It will add about 10 to 15 a month. Well worth it.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 03, 2012, 01:28:01 AM
This was followed by a story about some economists who think that the stations should be free to charge $25 per gallon to help curb the demand for gas. Their reasoning is that would keep people from buying more than they strictly need (buying half a tank instead of filling up; filling one gas can instead of six like one customer was reported doing in the story). Apparently there are state laws in place that prohibit raising the price.
Right, but they can, and did, limit the physical amount that could be purchased. $20 worth or so is the number I tended to hear.
I filled up uneventfully Wednesday morning in Long Island City, at what you might consider my usual station. It was noticeably more active than normal (usually that station has only 1 or 2 cars in it at a time, then there were more like 4 or 5), but no line and no supply issue. That of course was on Wednesday, before the stations really started to dry up.
My car has been parked since then. And I drive infrequently enough that that this point I won't need to fill up again until after the craziness passes.
But of course, such convenience is a luxury... I have a coworker out on Long Island who said yesterday that after he drove home from the train station last night, he wouldn't have enough gas left in his car to make another round trip, and that if he couldn't get gas over the weekend, he couldn't make it into the office on Monday.
Just filled up in Danbury CT with no problem. There were a couple of nj plates there and the gas attendants said they were seeing a steady flow from nj. But no real line...only waited for one car...so if you are in westchester and need gas, just head up to Danbury.
Talked to my father and he says that in Stamford all the stations right off the Merritt and I-95 are either a mob scene or out of gas, but that stations that are in less prime locations aren't seeing as much of an issue since folks coming in from New York aren't finding them. Also says that today is better than yesterday, which he attributes to that more people are getting their power back and no longer need to fill up all their gas cans for their generators in addition to their cars.
I read somewhere that the percentage of American homes which own a generator has quadrupled since 1999 (12% compared to 3%) - my father points out that in that time frame it has gone from one person in their neighborhood having a generator to them being one of the few in the neighborhood who don't.
The proliferation of backup generators means that you now see a huge spike in local demand for gasoline whenever there is a large blackout.
Quote from: Duke87 on November 03, 2012, 10:08:46 PM
my father points out that in that time frame it has gone from one person in their neighborhood having a generator to them being one of the few in the neighborhood who don't.
In my neighborhood its gone from one house (a friend of mine who bought it for Y2K) to just about every house. Some even had a whole house natural gas unit installed. The ones that didn't have a generator, had an extension cord run to a neighbor's house with one. A couple of factors come into play. The cost to purchase a generator has come down, and mindsets have somehow changed. Hurricane/TS Irene was the major tipping point here. Before that storm, hardly anyone owned a generator.
Just saw this happening today even the US Gas stations on US-22 at RT-122 is closed due to no gas being delivered, but most drivers in the Phillipsburg,NJ area go to Easton, PA to get gas ,and Hess at US-22 3rd street in Lopatcong,NJ has long lines to pick up fuel.
I run a gas station in northern NJ. Fuel deliveries have been sporadic at best and we get no guarantees of when the next load will come in. We've had the police on scene whenever we are open to help keep order and tempers from flaring. Under normal circumstances I work odd hours (4 am to 1 pm) Ever since the huricane I've been working even more bizarre hours than normal. Soon I have to find out if my station has fuel to operate today. We ran out yesterday afternoon and I could not get any kind of straight answer from fuel logistics when I can expect to see the next tanker truck pull in. Things will slowly improve as more stations reopen. Also, as Steve noted Governor Christie has placed an odd/even license plate restriction to help curtail the long wait times and the traffic backups it causes as long lines fill up the shoulder, and in some cases a travel lane waiting for fuel.
Quote from: Duke87 on November 03, 2012, 10:08:46 PM
I read somewhere that the percentage of American homes which own a generator has quadrupled since 1999 (12% compared to 3%) - my father points out that in that time frame it has gone from one person in their neighborhood having a generator to them being one of the few in the neighborhood who don't.
The proliferation of backup generators means that you now see a huge spike in local demand for gasoline whenever there is a large blackout.
I wonder if this storm creates more demand for the nat gas or LP generators. I had a debate about this with a co-worker on Friday.
In some cases the nat gas has been shut off to some neighborhoods because they cannot find all the leaks in the system yet...silver lining there is that these same neighborhoods are pretty much uninhabitable so even if your generator had access to nat gas it would not matter. So as long as the gas doesn't got off, you are in great shape.
If you are like me and have an LP generator you are totally off the grid which is a great hedge against the gas scenario I laid out above. It's an outlier scenario though and if they had nat gas in my neighborhood i probably would have went with it. The problem I have now is that I do not know if the LP truck will be able to fit under the dangling power lines and fallen trees that are suspended over the back roads to get me an LP delivery. I'll find out tomorrow.
Bottom Line: Things are dicey power wise and there is not much you can do to be 100% covered when something like this comes along.
One thing is for sure...If am required to have a hurricane deductible on my home (which i thought was crazy when i moved here over the summer but now I totally get), then all gas stations should be required to have generators so when this happens again we are more prepared. I know that will raise the cost for signalman's station, but i would be willing to pay a few cents more knowing fuel shortages are less likely in a natural disaster. That's just me though.
Perhaps we should also implement a "gas trucks can cut in front of the line whenever they need to refuel" system. That would help make the supply more regular.
Quote from: deanej on November 04, 2012, 08:53:06 AM
Perhaps we should also implement a "gas trucks can cut in front of the line whenever they need to refuel" system. That would help make the supply more regular.
I would also assume that placarded tank truck combinations are prohibited through the various tunnels in New York and New Jersey, which reduces the number of routes that they can use to get from terminals (presumably located in North Jersey, right?) to gas stations.
Also please note that the New Jersey Turnpike prohibits carrying gasoline and flammable liquids in containers inside cars on their highway. You can not fill gas cans at the NJTP service areas as a result. They were doing it earlier in the week and the NJSP were ticketing those people leaving the service areas. Nice way to deal with an emergency situation guys.
Quote from: NJRoadfan on November 04, 2012, 10:25:47 AM
Also please note that the New Jersey Turnpike prohibits carrying gasoline and flammable liquids in containers inside cars on their highway. You can not fill gas cans at the NJTP service areas as a result. They were doing it earlier in the week and the NJSP were ticketing those people leaving the service areas. Nice way to deal with an emergency situation guys.
If I lived in New Jersey,
that would be worth a phone call or e-mail to Gov. Christie.
I actually agree with the rule forbidding transport of fuel in cans inside vehicles on roads functionally classified as freeway, but I think that its enforcement ought to be suspended during this emergency.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 04, 2012, 11:46:12 AM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on November 04, 2012, 10:25:47 AM
Also please note that the New Jersey Turnpike prohibits carrying gasoline and flammable liquids in containers inside cars on their highway. You can not fill gas cans at the NJTP service areas as a result. They were doing it earlier in the week and the NJSP were ticketing those people leaving the service areas. Nice way to deal with an emergency situation guys.
If I lived in New Jersey, that would be worth a phone call or e-mail to Gov. Christie.
I actually agree with the rule forbidding transport of fuel in cans inside vehicles on roads functionally classified as freeway, but I think that its enforcement ought to be suspended during this emergency.
Or at the very least, have the police officer AT THE STATION telling people they can't fill them. It's a cheap move.
I wonder what effect, if any, New Jersey's full-service only law has on the situation there. Any instance of a lack of attendants making lines move more slowly? I know that under normal circumstances stations on the Turnpike have this as a perpetual problem.
What happens in New Jersey when you go to fill a gas can? Do you have to hand the can to the attendant? Presumably they should in that case be telling customers on the turnpike that they can't fill the cans there.
(though I don't particularly see the logic in that ban. Is a gas can on the freeway really that dangerous? Moreso than a gas can on a surface street?)
Quote from: Steve on November 02, 2012, 10:55:18 PM
http://www.northjersey.com/news/bergen/License_plate_gas_restrictions_take_effect_Saturday_at_noon.html?page=all
You are right about this even Warren County follows the License plate restriction, but in some cases odd numbered plates can go up to a gas station that is currently filling up even plated cars if they are lucky to be filled up with gas.
Quote from: Duke87 on November 04, 2012, 05:06:57 PM
What happens in New Jersey when you go to fill a gas can? Do you have to hand the can to the attendant?
You just place the gas cans on the ground and tell them to fill it. To speed filling, you can take off the spout and replace it afterwards.
Gov Christie said at his news conf this afternoon that he turned down the free gas offer from FEMA. He said it would cause chaos and wanted the gas directed to fueling stations.
Quote from: mc78andrew on November 04, 2012, 05:52:18 AM
One thing is for sure...If am required to have a hurricane deductible on my home (which i thought was crazy when i moved here over the summer but now I totally get), then all gas stations should be required to have generators so when this happens again we are more prepared. I know that will raise the cost for signalman's station, but i would be willing to pay a few cents more knowing fuel shortages are less likely in a natural disaster. That's just me though.
It sounds like a good idea on paper, but it's far more complex than most realize. There's more than just the submersible pumps in the tanks and the pumps that dispense fuel. There is a lot of computer equipment that also needs to be powered and can't be circumvented. Power loss hasn't been an issue at my station either. We've had electricity the whole time. My problem right now is securing deliveries in a timely fashion. Deliveries are sporadic at best and tanker drivers are waiting in very long lines at terminals. My last two deliveries came from a terminal in Connecticut, so not only did the driver wait in a long line to get the fuel. But once he loaded, he had a nearly 3 hour trek to deliver it to my station. Also, I don't own the station that I work at, I only manage it and thus don't have a say in things that are implemented. My best advice to the consumer is to curtail usage until things improve. I know Americans don't like being told what to do or have their normal habits altered, but we all have to share in this crisis. Things will improve, but it won't be overnight.
Hopefully prior to future storms the media might remember to include "fill your gas tank" among their panicked announcements reminding people what to do prior to a big storm. The media here in the DC area were obsessed with water and groceries. Barely heard a mention of gas or using the ATM. People forget that the gas pumps and ATMs require electricity.
Thankfully, we were very fortunate to come through unscathed.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 05, 2012, 10:30:02 AM
Hopefully prior to future storms the media might remember to include "fill your gas tank" among their panicked announcements reminding people what to do prior to a big storm. The media here in the DC area were obsessed with water and groceries. Barely heard a mention of gas or using the ATM. People forget that the gas pumps and ATMs require electricity.
They did remember to mention it around here, or at least on the Weather Channel. I filled up less because I'd need to go anywhere, but so that I'd be able to listen to the radio or charge my devices if power went out. In other words, to use the car as a generator.
But the problem comes for people who have to consume fuel as part of their work or commute. Taxis are a huge part of the clientele of any NYC gas station; on a typical day, they're all you see at the pump. After the storm, of course, they were extra taxed with no transit running. Also, people such as the police were also running dry of fuel.
Lots of commuters have been missing work, though the reason isn't always clear to me. One MTA employee I saw on TV said he'd spent two nights in his car in a gas line and was facing two days missed at work because he had no fuel. Now, why he couldn't take transit himself is a mystery to me. I mean, I know that's extra difficult lately, but surely less difficult than spending two nights in your car and missing work twice!
Quote from: empirestate on November 05, 2012, 11:16:16 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 05, 2012, 10:30:02 AM
Hopefully prior to future storms the media might remember to include "fill your gas tank" among their panicked announcements reminding people what to do prior to a big storm. The media here in the DC area were obsessed with water and groceries. Barely heard a mention of gas or using the ATM. People forget that the gas pumps and ATMs require electricity.
They did remember to mention it around here, or at least on the Weather Channel. I filled up less because I'd need to go anywhere, but so that I'd be able to listen to the radio or charge my devices if power went out. In other words, to use the car as a generator.
....
I had thought about that idea but then realized I didn't need to use the car in that respect because my portable jumpstarter has two cigarette lighter plugs on the front, so I can just plug the phone car charger into that thing. Useful device to have (I mostly use it to jumpstart one of the cars that doesn't get driven often enough).
Quote from: NJRoadfan on November 04, 2012, 10:25:47 AM
Also please note that the New Jersey Turnpike prohibits carrying gasoline and flammable liquids in containers inside cars on their highway. You can not fill gas cans at the NJTP service areas as a result. They were doing it earlier in the week and the NJSP were ticketing those people leaving the service areas. Nice way to deal with an emergency situation guys.
Can you please quote a reliable source stating this actually happened? I seriously doubt the accuracy of this because even the NJ Turnpike's webpage status update regarding gasoline availability ( http://www.state.nj.us/turnpike/service_status.html )specifically mentions the following:
"The sale of gasoline in containers has not been restricted by the Governor's executive order, but the Turnpike Authority will suspend container sales to walk-up customers in certain service areas when they pose a threat to safety."
And:
"Drivers should not park on the shoulders of the Turnpike or Parkway and attempt to walk to the fuel pumps. Cars left on the shoulders are subject to ticketing and towing."
I can understand a driver getting a ticket...but that was for the improper parking of a vehicle on the shoulder of the roadway, not because they got gas in a container.
Quote from: empirestate on November 05, 2012, 11:16:16 AM
Lots of commuters have been missing work, though the reason isn't always clear to me. One MTA employee I saw on TV said he'd spent two nights in his car in a gas line and was facing two days missed at work because he had no fuel. Now, why he couldn't take transit himself is a mystery to me. I mean, I know that's extra difficult lately, but surely less difficult than spending two nights in your car and missing work twice!
Just because he works for a transit agency doesn't mean he lives somewhere where there is transit service.
And then there's the crowds. With NJ Transit barely running and PATH out of commission, it simply isn't possible for all the commuters from New Jersey to get into the city right now.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 05, 2012, 01:46:29 PM
Can you please quote a reliable source stating this actually happened? I seriously doubt the accuracy of this because even the NJ Turnpike's webpage status update regarding gasoline availability ( http://www.state.nj.us/turnpike/service_status.html )specifically mentions the following:
"The sale of gasoline in containers has not been restricted by the Governor's executive order, but the Turnpike Authority will suspend container sales to walk-up customers in certain service areas when they pose a threat to safety."
Its clearly written in the NJTP Rules and Regulations (towards the bottom of page 13): http://www.state.nj.us/turnpike/documents/regulationsunofficialversionforWebsite.pdf
The ticketing incident was reported on NJ101.5.
Quote from: Duke87 on November 05, 2012, 08:45:52 PM
Quote from: empirestate on November 05, 2012, 11:16:16 AM
Lots of commuters have been missing work, though the reason isn't always clear to me. One MTA employee I saw on TV said he'd spent two nights in his car in a gas line and was facing two days missed at work because he had no fuel. Now, why he couldn't take transit himself is a mystery to me. I mean, I know that's extra difficult lately, but surely less difficult than spending two nights in your car and missing work twice!
Just because he works for a transit agency doesn't mean he lives somewhere where there is transit service.
Quite true, but they mentioned his neighborhood in Queens, where there most certainly is.
Quote from: Duke87 on November 05, 2012, 08:45:52 PM
And then there's the crowds. With NJ Transit barely running and PATH out of commission, it simply isn't possible for all the commuters from New Jersey to get into the city right now.
Crowds I understand. But I doubt that even a multi-hour delay would be less preferable to a multi-day gas line! (Of course, this is the local news. It wouldn't be surprising if something pertinent were missing from this story.)
Quote from: NJRoadfan on November 05, 2012, 10:18:28 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 05, 2012, 01:46:29 PM
Can you please quote a reliable source stating this actually happened? I seriously doubt the accuracy of this because even the NJ Turnpike's webpage status update regarding gasoline availability ( http://www.state.nj.us/turnpike/service_status.html )specifically mentions the following:
"The sale of gasoline in containers has not been restricted by the Governor's executive order, but the Turnpike Authority will suspend container sales to walk-up customers in certain service areas when they pose a threat to safety."
Its clearly written in the NJTP Rules and Regulations (towards the bottom of page 13): http://www.state.nj.us/turnpike/documents/regulationsunofficialversionforWebsite.pdf
The ticketing incident was reported on NJ101.5.
I know it's written in the regs...but so is the speed limit, which is hardly adhered to as well. But the much more recent press release clearly shows that fueling gas containers is being allowed for the time being.
If the source is 101.5, then you might as well say you heard it from a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend, which in many cases passes as news on that radio station. For what it's worth, I found nothing on their website regarding that story.
My company, which is located in purchase ny in westchester county, hired a fuel truck to come to our office everyday. We have a lot of commuters from Long Island, NYC and New Jersey that commute up to 100 miles a day round trip. People were starting to leave work durning the day and wait for hours in lines or they were just getting home very late after waiting in lines near their homes. It has been driving people nuts.
They are charging 3.64 a gallon, which is a bargin around here. It's regular only though, so fuel snobs requiring only premium gas have to go and wait with the masses.
NYC and Long Island are joining the alternate day policy. (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/gas-shortage-continues-fray-patience-drivers-article-1.1198809) Westchester is not involved in the plan and Connecticut remains seemingly unaffected by this whole drama.
Here in NJ, the lines are mostly gone as just about every station is open now. Locally, the problems have caused prices to go up, but 10 miles away gas prices are 50 cents a gallon cheaper! Prices should hopefully stabilize next week with supply.
Quote from: Duke87 on November 08, 2012, 10:00:33 PM
NYC and Long Island are joining the alternate day policy. (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/gas-shortage-continues-fray-patience-drivers-article-1.1198809) Westchester is not involved in the plan and Connecticut remains seemingly unaffected by this whole drama.
One Mobil station near me (Bronx) just started selling again and immediately had a line...not epic like you see on TV, but notable. With the rationing now, you can expect to see lines shift about a mile to the north in non-rationed Yonkers.
I'm still holding onto my tank of gas from pre-Sandy, which I got at the Gulf station on I-87. Surprisingly, it has among the better prices in the area, if you pay cash. I'm going up to Waterbury this weekend, so obviously I'll take Metro North. But I would have done that anyway, just 'cause.
It was declared over in NJ this morning.
Over in LI and NYC too (LI as of last week, not sure when for NYC).
Quote from: mtantillo on November 25, 2012, 08:28:56 PM
Over in LI and NYC too (LI as of last week, not sure when for NYC).
Yesterday, 11/24 I believe. Heard it on the radio on my way into town.