I am just curious, as everyday we see other idiots on the road doing crazy driving maneuvers. Some drive us crazy at times, and some even we yell mostly at the other individual with our windows closed to vent. There is no end to it and we could write a 2000 page book on every incident another driver does something stupid or unethical. However, I am interested in knowing what driver mistake that you each see in your local area on a regular basis takes place the most. I basically want to see if bad driving habits are the same everyplace around or not.
In my area, I would have to say the sudden turn movements are number one to report. The ones where somebody will slow down at a moments notice and make a left or a right causing you to brake dramatically.
Also, keep in mind not to ramble about the latest incident when posting as I know other drivers can and will piss us off at times.
lack of lane discipline seems to be the big one around here. people just don't notice that they are riding the separator, even when it has Botts dots.
Stopping well past the stop bar, definitely. Second place easily goes to not signalling during lane changes, or even when turning; however, it's not nearly as bad as it was in rural western Kansas, where I grew up.
* Not keeping right is so ubiquitous to American driving, I don't feel it's worth including.
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 04:09:39 PM
Second place easily goes to not signalling during lane changes, or even when turning
I only signal when there is at least a slight probability that someone will be affected by my lane change or turn. if I can do it without affecting other cars, I will not signal.
QuoteNot keeping right is so ubiquitous to American driving, I don't feel it's worth including.
worse than that is when two cars are driving side by side, or one sits in the blind spot of the other. either way, a third lane (usually not available) is required to get around them.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 13, 2013, 04:14:50 PM
QuoteNot keeping right is so ubiquitous to American driving, I don't feel it's worth including.
worse than that is when two cars are driving side by side, or one sits in the blind spot of the other. either way, a third lane (usually not available) is required to get around them.
I've been known to use the inside shoulder of SB I-135 in northern Wichita to get around cases where vehicles in
all three lanes are moving at exactly the same speed–usually including an 18-wheeler. Doing so requires detailed knowledge of said shoulder, since it is not wide enough for a vehicle to pass on the elevated portion (the canal route): wouldn't want to start that maneuver too far south. :-o
I'm trying to stop letting my frustration exhibit itself in this kind of behavior.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 13, 2013, 04:14:50 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 04:09:39 PM
Second place easily goes to not signalling during lane changes, or even when turning
I only signal when there is at least a slight probability that someone will be affected by my lane change or turn. if I can do it without affecting other cars, I will not signal.
QuoteNot keeping right is so ubiquitous to American driving, I don't feel it's worth including.
worse than that is when two cars are driving side by side, or one sits in the blind spot of the other. either way, a third lane (usually not available) is required to get around them.
I take the opposite approach: I only
don't signal in very rare cases. Even for the simplest lane changes, I operate under the assumption that there might be a car in my blind spot that I missed seeing–or that someone who wasn't next to me a second ago has come "out of nowhere". So I signal. Just in case. And it's saved me once or twice: I was sure no one was there, I signalled anyway, and a honk of their horn alerted me to the fact that things were not as I thought.
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 04:30:44 PMI signalled anyway, and a honk of their horn alerted me to the fact that things were not as I thought.
completely different driving culture out here. we don't honk to say "oh hey, you should probably not attempt that lane change". people will make the lane change regardless of who pays attention to their signal, so I just make sure to do so when there is no one in my blind spot.
(the fact that cars come with blind spots is pretty damn silly in and of itself.)
One that bothers me is people who have the right-of-way and don't try to wave it off. When approaching a stop sign wanting to turn left, I hate when the driver across, with no turn signal and presumably going straight, wants me to go first. Instead of us both waiting for each others, he should go first. If he wants me to go first, we waste time deciding the order of doing things. If the left turn is made first, he has to wait for me to complete my entire maneuver before starting his, because the end of my left turn is right in front of him. This makes our two crossings take longer. Only the first half of his maneuver is in my way, so if he goes first, I can start my maneuver (my left turn) by going into the intersection and then start the left turn after he's cleared the far (from me) side of the intersection. This gets us through the intersection a little faster. There's a good reason the rules are as they are. He thinks he's being nice letting someone else go first, but I find it annoying because I'm more concerned with knowing what to expect and when to go than with going first. And if we collide, it's my fault because I was required to yield.
I wouldn't say this is the most common mistake, but it is annoyingly common. I often don't signal a left turn if there are no cars behind me or behind the driver across from me. If the other driver doesn't know I want to turn left, he won't try to get me to go first.
Turning right on red when there is a 'No Turn on Red' sign posted or when oncoming traffic has a green left turn arrow.
Going 5+ mph below the speed limit but doing it in the left lane because they are going to make a left turn in 2 miles.
Things I see several times per commute:
Not signaling. (which is a pet peeve/berserk button for me)
Left lane or centre lane hogging.
Flooring it on yellows.
Railway crossing violations (flooring it, or stopping then crossing, when the lights and bells are on).
Things that aren't on my commute but happen often enough on other trips:
Pedestrian crosswalk violations.
Where, oh where do I begin? It's hard to figure out what is the the most common driver mistake around Chicagoland. Is it red light running, stopping past the stop line, stopping a car length or more behind the stop line, lack of turn signals, changing multiple lanes at once, or making a bolting run from the far lane to make an exit?
I'd say it's probably a lack of turn signals, but the others are a close second, third, fourth, etc.
Quote from: cabiness42 on May 13, 2013, 04:40:21 PM
Going 5+ mph below the speed limit but doing it in the left lane because they are going to make a left turn in 2 miles.
I've noticed this behavior in Downstate Illinois a lot. To me it's the "Downstate 5 Below Game", and I hate it.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 13, 2013, 04:36:35 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 04:30:44 PMI signalled anyway, and a honk of their horn alerted me to the fact that things were not as I thought.
completely different driving culture out here. we don't honk to say "oh hey, you should probably not attempt that lane change". people will make the lane change regardless of who pays attention to their signal, so I just make sure to do so when there is no one in my blind spot.
(the fact that cars come with blind spots is pretty damn silly in and of itself.)
I noticed that while driving in California. No one seemed to use their horn. Here, in the cities of the Midwest (Chicago, Detroit), horn use is very common. It's along the lines of "hey asshole, you just ran the signal/stop sign", or "hey asshole, get back in your own fricking lane".
Blind spots can be mostly removed on cars anyway by setting up your mirrors right.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 13, 2013, 04:14:50 PM
I only signal when there is at least a slight probability that someone will be affected by my lane change or turn. if I can do it without affecting other cars, I will not signal.
Don't forget pedestrians. A minor pet peeve of mine is, when I'm waiting to cross at a non-signalized intersection across from my apartment, drivers will often turn on their turn signals in anticipation of the *next* intersection a block away, rather than making the turn at the intersection where I'm at. If I could count on them making that turn, I could start walking across the street without waiting for them to pass (enough traffic that I usually want not to wait for the next crossing opportunity), but after one close call I know better.
My bigger peeves are (1) drivers not using their turn signals even with other traffic present, and (2) drivers speeding up, rather than maintaining speed or slowing down, when I signal my intention to move into their lane. The D.C. area is notorious for (2), which in turn makes (1) worse.
Quote from: Brandon on May 13, 2013, 04:44:18 PM
the most common driver mistake around Chicagoland.
Turning left after the light turned red seven seconds ago.
Very common errors in Wichita (in addition to not signalling lane changes, which I think Kphoger mentioned above):
* Fouling a railroad crossing when coming to a stop at a signal ("Do Not Stop On Tracks" signs are used, but ignored by all but a very tiny minority of the driving population--myself included)
* Failing to turn left to left and right to right as required by Kansas law (Kansas is a UVC direct adopter) (I always signal the final phase of the turn as a lane change if I have to turn left to right or right to left in order to reach a driveway that is very close to the intersection, but almost no-one else does)
* Using a TWLTL to stage left turns out of driveways
* Completing a turn by cutting in front of another car that is not actually in the target lane, in the expectation that the other car will hold lane position
The underlying motivation for most of these errors is impatience, compounded by nonexistent to weak access control on section-line arterials, which by default are built out to four lanes (two in each direction) with the addition of a TWLTL--no access management--in high-volume retail districts (e.g. 21st and Maize) once those become established.
Edit: Another really common error:
* Changing lane within an intersection (with or without signalling)
Quote from: Brandon on May 13, 2013, 04:45:44 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on May 13, 2013, 04:40:21 PM
Going 5+ mph below the speed limit but doing it in the left lane because they are going to make a left turn in 2 miles.
Related to one I encounter: drivers braking/slowing down in the through lanes to make a turn, then enter the turn lane which is long enough to do the deceleration in itself.
I've noticed this behavior in Downstate Illinois a lot. To me it's the "Downstate 5 Below Game", and I hate it.
Quote from: Brandon on May 13, 2013, 04:50:31 PM
I noticed that while driving in California. No one seemed to use their horn. Here, in the cities of the Midwest (Chicago, Detroit), horn use is very common. It's along the lines of "hey asshole, you just ran the signal/stop sign", or "hey asshole, get back in your own fricking lane".
here in California, horn use seems to be most dedicated to annoying pedestrians and bicyclists who have the legitimate right of way.
"I get 8 miles per gallon in my behemoth SUV. Fuck you."
QuoteBlind spots can be mostly removed on cars anyway by setting up your mirrors right.
mostly, yes. I still swivel my head slightly just to be absolutely sure.
Quote from: oscar on May 13, 2013, 05:05:11 PM
Don't forget pedestrians. A minor pet peeve of mine is, when I'm waiting to cross at a non-signalized intersection across from my apartment, drivers will often turn on their turn signals in anticipation of the *next* intersection a block away, rather than making the turn at the intersection where I'm at. If I could count on them making that turn, I could start walking across the street without waiting for them to pass (enough traffic that I usually want not to wait for the next crossing opportunity), but after one close call I know better.
when one is in a vehicle, this goes from annoying to possibly dangerous. if I am exiting a driveway, intending to make a right turn, I will not exit even if an approaching vehicle has his turn signal on, as it seems to mean anything from "I intend to take the next driveway" to "I intend to take the next street at the upcoming traffic light" to "I've had it on since Albuquerque".
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 13, 2013, 05:19:24 PM
* Using a TWLTL to stage left turns out of driveways
this is common behavior in California. somewhere we had a discussion as to whether or not this is legal - it certainly is the norm around here.
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 05:13:11 PM
Turning left after the light turned red seven seconds ago.
this is a pattern in New York City which must be anticipated. when a light turns red, left-turning traffic will continue to stream into, and out of, the intersection for a good 5-15 cars.
if you do not stream (illegal as it may be), the people behind you will want to murder you, and signal such intent with the horn.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 13, 2013, 05:54:56 PM
Quote from: oscar on May 13, 2013, 05:05:11 PM
Don't forget pedestrians. A minor pet peeve of mine is, when I'm waiting to cross at a non-signalized intersection across from my apartment, drivers will often turn on their turn signals in anticipation of the *next* intersection a block away, rather than making the turn at the intersection where I'm at. If I could count on them making that turn, I could start walking across the street without waiting for them to pass (enough traffic that I usually want not to wait for the next crossing opportunity), but after one close call I know better.
when one is in a vehicle, this goes from annoying to possibly dangerous. if I am exiting a driveway, intending to make a right turn, I will not exit even if an approaching vehicle has his turn signal on, as it seems to mean anything from "I intend to take the next driveway" to "I intend to take the next street at the upcoming traffic light" to "I've had it on since Albuquerque".
Just yesterday, I encountered a driver (with new car tags on the vehicle) who wouldn't turn his signal
off after changing lanes. Multiple times. Hadn't seen that one before.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 13, 2013, 05:19:24 PM
Very common errors in Wichita (in addition to not signalling lane changes, which I think Kphoger mentioned above):
* Fouling a railroad crossing when coming to a stop at a signal ("Do Not Stop On Tracks" signs are used, but ignored by all but a very tiny minority of the driving population--myself included)
* Failing to turn left to left and right to right as required by Kansas law (Kansas is a UVC direct adopter) (I always signal the final phase of the turn as a lane change if I have to turn left to right or right to left in order to reach a driveway that is very close to the intersection, but almost no-one else does)
* Using a TWLTL to stage left turns out of driveways
* Completing a turn by cutting in front of another car that is not actually in the target lane, in the expectation that the other car will hold lane position
The underlying motivation for most of these errors is impatience, compounded by nonexistent to weak access control on section-line arterials, which by default are built out to four lanes (two in each direction) with the addition of a TWLTL--no access management--in high-volume retail districts (e.g. 21st and Maize) once those become established.
Edit: Another really common error:
* Changing lane within an intersection (with or without signalling)
Fouling a railroad crossing (which sounds like an act of vandalism, by the way) - common everywhere, I've noticed, and potentially
quite dangerous.
Turning left-to-right or right-to-left - also common everywhere and usually not dangerous, typically only enforced in the Nazi states of Bel Aire and Park City (& al.).
Using your TWLTL in public Using a TWLTL to stage a left exit turn - very common everywhere, borderline necessary (try getting around Branson without it!), and
explicitly permitted by Kansas law ("a vehicle shall not be driven in the lane except when preparing for or making a left turn from
or into the roadway...").
Cutting someone off by turning into the other lane - doesn't seem to be prohibited by law, other than the aforementioned right-to-right and left-to-left issue (in fact, I know of one heavily trafficked intersection in Illinois that had simultaneous opposing green left- and right-turn arrows, i.e. west-to-north and east-to-north movements), but does have the potential for a wreck.
Changing lanes within an intersection - quite innocuous unless someone is waiting for a break in traffic to turn into the unoccupied lane (see
Cutting someone off by turning into... above).
People who don't know the following basics:
* 4-way stop (yield to person on right, then proceed - and two people can proceed simultaneously in opposite directions)
* Yield (you can keep moving if no conflicts - especially when you're on a ramp with an added lane)
* Merge (see Yield, except even stupider)
* Alternate feed - I see 6 people try to cut off trucks in this scenario
* Blowing through red lights on a "late yellow"
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 13, 2013, 05:58:16 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 05:13:11 PM
Turning left after the light turned red seven seconds ago.
this is a pattern in New York City which must be anticipated. when a light turns red, left-turning traffic will continue to stream into, and out of, the intersection for a good 5-15 cars.
if you do not stream (illegal as it may be), the people behind you will want to murder you, and signal such intent with the horn.
So if you're at an intersection with a camera, you're supposed to just take the ticket?
Quote from: vdeane on May 13, 2013, 08:08:15 PM
So if you're at an intersection with a camera, you're supposed to just take the ticket?
I have not been in NYC in a while, but I have not seen an intersection with a camera. perhaps traffic patterns have changed since ~2009.
Quote from: Steve on May 13, 2013, 08:02:29 PM
* Yield (you can keep moving if no conflicts - especially when you're on a ramp with an added lane)
do added-lane on ramps even have YIELD signs? I don't think I've explicitly noticed one way or the other.
Quote from: Steve on May 13, 2013, 08:02:29 PM
* Yield (you can keep moving if no conflicts - especially when you're on a ramp with an added lane)
* Merge (see Yield, except even stupider)
Oooh! Big time peeve! I use a Texas turnaround pretty much every day to get on Kellogg (seen here (http://goo.gl/maps/iTzc3)). Even though there is no yield sign, and even though one need not merge into another lane to enter Kellogg (which at least 70% of the cars on the turnaround are doing), some people
still come to a complete stop to wait for everybody else to change lanes
into their my lane.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 13, 2013, 08:17:45 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 13, 2013, 08:02:29 PM
* Yield (you can keep moving if no conflicts - especially when you're on a ramp with an added lane)
do added-lane on ramps even have YIELD signs? I don't think I've explicitly noticed one way or the other.
Some places use them, others don't.
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 07:59:27 PMTurning left-to-right or right-to-left - also common everywhere and usually not dangerous, typically only enforced in the Nazi states of Bel Aire and Park City (& al.).
In some states--e.g. Texas--it is
de jure legal. It isn't just in the suburbs that there have been enforcement blitzes; the Wichita Police Department stages them from time to time. It was precisely this maneuver which gave a police officer probable cause to stop Chris Cherches, who at the time (mid-1990's) was city manager. Cherches was driving a city-owned car and was reported to have been drinking. DUI in a city-owned vehicle is grounds for instant termination, but it was eventually decided either that the bust was not good or that prosecution would not proceed for other reasons, so Cherches got to keep his job until several years later, when he was forced to resign as a result of an outcry over his finance director's $35,000 expenses bill (which included a bottle of wine for which the city was charged several hundred dollars).
QuoteUsing your TWLTL in public Using a TWLTL to stage a left exit turn - very common everywhere, borderline necessary (try getting around Branson without it!), and explicitly permitted by Kansas law ("a vehicle shall not be driven in the lane except when preparing for or making a left turn from or into the roadway...").
I actually hadn't realized it was legal, but I still think it is a bad maneuver because it potentially puts the vehicle attempting to stage the left turn out of a driveway on a collision course with another vehicle moving into the TWLTL to wait for a left turn. The vehicle in the driveway is not guaranteed to be able to see the vehicle about to move into the TWLTL because the line of vision can easily be occluded by other vehicles which have just passed the driveway.
QuoteCutting someone off by turning into the other lane - doesn't seem to be prohibited by law, other than the aforementioned right-to-right and left-to-left issue (in fact, I know of one heavily trafficked intersection in Illinois that had simultaneous opposing green left- and right-turn arrows, i.e. west-to-north and east-to-north movements), but does have the potential for a wreck.
A person who allows himself to cut off someone else who is in his desired direction of travel but not actually in his target lane gets more gaps in traffic that he is willing to accept. But it is definitely not consistent with defensive driving. I won't say I have never done it, but I try to avoid it.
QuoteChanging lanes within an intersection - quite innocuous unless someone is waiting for a break in traffic to turn into the unoccupied lane (see Cutting someone off by turning into... above).
In most cases it may be innocuous, but it is
de jure illegal and a person can be ticketed for it. I generally avoid changing lanes within intersections for this reason. It has the side effect of ensuring that I don't confuse anyone waiting at the intersection whom I cannot see but who can see my turn signal (I always signal lane changes) and misinterpret it to our mutual disadvantage.
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 08:21:52 PMOooh! Big time peeve! I use a Texas turnaround pretty much every day to get on Kellogg (seen here (http://goo.gl/maps/iTzc3)). Even though there is no yield sign, and even though one need not merge into another lane to enter Kellogg (which at least 70% of the cars on the turnaround are doing), some people still come to a complete stop to wait for everybody else to change lanes into their my lane.
You would probably be angry at me: I usually do precisely this thing (coming to a full stop and waiting in a yield-controlled channel lane) when turning right from Windmill Road to Zoo Boulevard. The channel lane becomes a gained lane on Zoo Boulevard which becomes right-turn-only for I-235 southbound at the next signalized intersection, just over the bridge across the Big Ditch (so not very far away). I usually slow down or stop when there is traffic coming down Zoo through the Windmill Road light not because I want to aggravate the vehicles following me, but because I want to move left for the left-turn lane at the I-235 northbound ramp, and cannot do this easily if I have to contend with vehicles on Zoo Boulevard moving right for I-235 southbound.
I can keep moving at the yield only when I actually want to turn onto I-235 southbound (which rarely happens) or when the Windmill Road light is red for traffic on Zoo.
Quote from: Brandon on May 13, 2013, 04:44:18 PM
Where, oh where do I begin? It's hard to figure out what is the the most common driver mistake around Chicagoland. Is it red light running, stopping past the stop line, stopping a car length or more behind the stop line, lack of turn signals, changing multiple lanes at once, or making a bolting run from the far lane to make an exit?
I'm surprised making a left turn from a driveway or side street by pulling out and blocking cross traffic from the left isn't on your list.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 13, 2013, 08:28:19 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 07:59:27 PMTurning left-to-right or right-to-left - also common everywhere and usually not dangerous, typically only enforced in the Nazi states of Bel Aire and Park City (& al.).
In some states--e.g. Texas--it is de jure legal.
Texas law permits turning
left into the
right lane (except for a one-way street exception), but prohibits turning
right into the
left lane (see the appropriate vehicle code here (http://law.onecle.com/texas/transportation/545.101.00.html)). I think they did that just to mess with your head.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 13, 2013, 08:28:19 PM
QuoteChanging lanes within an intersection - quite innocuous unless someone is waiting for a break in traffic to turn into the unoccupied lane (see Cutting someone off by turning into... above).
In most cases it may be innocuous, but it is de jure illegal and a person can be ticketed for it. I generally avoid changing lanes within intersections for this reason. It has the side effect of ensuring that I don't confuse anyone waiting at the intersection whom I cannot see but who can see my turn signal (I always signal lane changes) and misinterpret it to our mutual disadvantage.
The definition of "intersection" has led me to abandon the dream of never changing lanes within an intersection. Travelling at 45 mph, for example, it is quite difficult to time a lane change such that there is no minor cross street at any point during the maneuver–unless I make a very abrupt lane change, which I try to avoid (I change lanes more gradually than most drivers). At what point an intersection becomes "major" enough to warrant me not changing lanes is ambiguous: I rarely change lanes within a signalized intersection, for example, but it isn't unheard of; minor side streets don't factor one bit into my decision.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 13, 2013, 08:39:07 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 08:21:52 PMOooh! Big time peeve! I use a Texas turnaround pretty much every day to get on Kellogg (seen here (http://goo.gl/maps/iTzc3)). Even though there is no yield sign, and even though one need not merge into another lane to enter Kellogg (which at least 70% of the cars on the turnaround are doing), some people still come to a complete stop to wait for everybody else to change lanes into their my lane.
You would probably be angry at me: I usually do precisely this thing (coming to a full stop and waiting in a yield-controlled channel lane) when turning right from Windmill Road to Zoo Boulevard. The channel lane becomes a gained lane on Zoo Boulevard which becomes right-turn-only for I-235 southbound at the next signalized intersection, just over the bridge across the Big Ditch (so not very far away). I usually slow down or stop when there is traffic coming down Zoo through the Windmill Road light not because I want to aggravate the vehicles following me, but because I want to move left for the left-turn lane at the I-235 northbound ramp, and cannot do this easily if I have to contend with vehicles on Zoo Boulevard moving right for I-235 southbound.
I can keep moving at the yield only when I actually want to turn onto I-235 southbound (which rarely happens) or when the Windmill Road light is red for traffic on Zoo.
I've noticed that many drivers–yourself included, I guess–mistakenly think the gained lane becomes a right turn-only lane for SB I-235. In fact, it is an option lane for SB I-235 (easily see the two-headed arrow here (http://goo.gl/maps/aEIqH)), and only becomes an "only" lane for NB I-235. You can very well just stay in the rightmost lane the whole way, which I've done several times. That isn't to say there aren't a lot of
cars in the rightmost lane, and that you mightn't be better
off merging left and then right again, but that's another matter. So, yes, you would annoy me–though I wouldn't exactly call it anger.
Quote from: Revive 755 on May 13, 2013, 08:48:28 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 13, 2013, 04:44:18 PM
Where, oh where do I begin? It's hard to figure out what is the the most common driver mistake around Chicagoland. Is it red light running, stopping past the stop line, stopping a car length or more behind the stop line, lack of turn signals, changing multiple lanes at once, or making a bolting run from the far lane to make an exit?
I'm surprised making a left turn from a driveway or side street by pulling out and blocking cross traffic from the left isn't on your list.
Aw fuck, how the hell could I forget that asshole move. That only happens about 10 times a day at the Speedway about a mile and a half away on US-30.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 13, 2013, 08:28:19 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 07:59:27 PM
Changing lanes within an intersection - quite innocuous unless someone is waiting for a break in traffic to turn into the unoccupied lane (see Cutting someone off by turning into... above).
In most cases it may be innocuous, but it is de jure illegal and a person can be ticketed for it. I generally avoid changing lanes within intersections for this reason. It has the side effect of ensuring that I don't confuse anyone waiting at the intersection whom I cannot see but who can see my turn signal (I always signal lane changes) and misinterpret it to our mutual disadvantage.
Since when was this illegal on a multilane street? On a two-lane, yes, but I've never seen where it is illegal when you have multiple lanes in your direction. You wait for traffic to clear
all lanes before moving out into traffic, otherwise the accident is
your fault.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 13, 2013, 08:17:45 PM
do added-lane on ramps even have YIELD signs? I don't think I've explicitly noticed one way or the other.
There's this - not an onramp to a freeway, but a new lane begins on the surface road: https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=28.386115,-81.506474&spn=0.008608,0.016512&gl=us&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=28.386216,-81.506458&panoid=sGWa_-s1afOvIee4G4d9_w&cbp=12,209.47,,0,0.23
Per placement, it might be intended to mean yield to peds, but it might also mean that you're not supposed to go if traffic is entering from the intersection because they might cut you off to turn right into the 7-Eleven.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 13, 2013, 08:28:19 PM
QuoteChanging lanes within an intersection - quite innocuous unless someone is waiting for a break in traffic to turn into the unoccupied lane (see Cutting someone off by turning into... above).
In most cases it may be innocuous, but it is de jure illegal and a person can be ticketed for it.
Not in Florida (but the FHP could probably ticket you for it anyway; they lie about the legality of crossing a single solid white line).
Where to start here in Florida? We get people from all over the world moving and visiting here and they all bring their bad habits. My pet peeves:
* Assuming I'm turning left into the left lane and turning right on red into my intended path. Yes, I know NY has a left-to-left law but we don't and you have FL plates. Learn the local laws!
* Stopping for a school bus on the other side of a divide road with a median. Again, we're not in NY. Learn the local laws!
* Emergency flashers on in the rain or in fog. Flashers are for stopped cars ONLY and driving with them on is a significant safety hazard. FHP will ticket for it. But do turn in your headlights. Cars with hazards on but not headlights = double fail.
* Driving below the speed limit. I understand that NY would have signed the road at 30 but here in FL it's 45. Stop blocking traffic.
* Pulling out and blocking an entire direction of traffic to make a left turn. WTF? Go back to Long Island.
* Merging into the freeway at 35 mph. This isn't just the old folks from up north. Extra fail if they have to stop at the end of the merge lane because they can't find a gap big enough to squeeze in while going half the speed of traffic.
*Disclaimer* I know not all NYers are bad drivers, but y'all have figured out how to export your angriest and most senile elderly population to my fine state and they constantly annoy me. And I'm including NJ under the "NY" umbrella because I can.
Move to south Florida and will see every possible traffic rule and law broken multiple times in some horrific fashion almost every day. :pan:
Quote from: realjd on May 13, 2013, 09:27:27 PM
* Emergency flashers on in the rain or in fog. Flashers are for stopped cars ONLY and driving with them on is a significant safety hazard. FHP will ticket for it. But do turn in your headlights. Cars with hazards on but not headlights = double fail.
this must be different than in California, because here trucks use their flashers - in good weather and bad - when they're chugging up a hill doing 25 in a 65.
I've used the flashers myself when I had a flat tire and was crawling to the next exit, and also in the fog when I'm going 10 in a 65 (oh that was a fun one, over Siskiyou Pass).
I think flashers as "driver going abnormally slow" is a fairly good universal rule.
Quote from: Brandon on May 13, 2013, 09:14:51 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 13, 2013, 08:28:19 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 07:59:27 PM
Changing lanes within an intersection - quite innocuous unless someone is waiting for a break in traffic to turn into the unoccupied lane (see Cutting someone off by turning into... above).
In most cases it may be innocuous, but it is de jure illegal and a person can be ticketed for it. I generally avoid changing lanes within intersections for this reason. It has the side effect of ensuring that I don't confuse anyone waiting at the intersection whom I cannot see but who can see my turn signal (I always signal lane changes) and misinterpret it to our mutual disadvantage.
Since when was this illegal on a multilane street? On a two-lane, yes, but I've never seen where it is illegal when you have multiple lanes in your direction. You wait for traffic to clear all lanes before moving out into traffic, otherwise the accident is your fault.
Wait.... Are you saying you didn't think it was illegal, but you assumed any accident resulting from doing so would be your fault? I guess both of those can be true, but it seemed strange to read it.
For what it's worth, I can similarly find no vehicle code in Kansas law which prohibits changing lanes within an intersection–even though I was told in driver's ed that it's prohibited. J N Winkler, can you provide a code reference?
Quote from: realjd on May 13, 2013, 09:27:27 PM
* rain or in fog ... do turn [on] your headlights.
Oh, how could I have missed that one! Grrr.....
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 13, 2013, 10:09:22 PM
Quote from: realjd on May 13, 2013, 09:27:27 PM
* Emergency flashers on in the rain or in fog. Flashers are for stopped cars ONLY and driving with them on is a significant safety hazard. FHP will ticket for it. But do turn in your headlights. Cars with hazards on but not headlights = double fail.
this must be different than in California, because here trucks use their flashers - in good weather and bad - when they're chugging up a hill doing 25 in a 65.
I've used the flashers myself when I had a flat tire and was crawling to the next exit, and also in the fog when I'm going 10 in a 65 (oh that was a fun one, over Siskiyou Pass).
I think flashers as "driver going abnormally slow" is a fairly good universal rule.
Agreed. I've used flashers when going abnormally slow. My cutoff is probably around 15 mph under the legal maximum. In those situations, I only turned them on when traffic was approaching from behind, and turned them off when no one was behind me. I greatly appreciate it when slow-moving vehicles use their hazards.
However, when I first read realjd's post, I didn't assume the cars in question were driving abnormally slowly. I just thought maybe drivers in Florida had a habit of flipping them on whenever the weather was icky. Makes more sense now, though.
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 09:02:51 PMThe definition of "intersection" has led me to abandon the dream of never changing lanes within an intersection. Travelling at 45 mph, for example, it is quite difficult to time a lane change such that there is no minor cross street at any point during the maneuver–unless I make a very abrupt lane change, which I try to avoid (I change lanes more gradually than most drivers).
I don't have this problem, largely because the streets I drive on that are zoned for 45 MPH do not have cross streets at typical city-block density. At 35 or 40 MPH I can usually execute a lane change without difficulty in the length of a typical short city block. I consider my lane changes to be neither gradual nor abrupt--I just try to maintain consistency in signalling them well in advance. Cutting the amount of this advance notice to accommodate tight intersection spacing is the one concession I make.
The requirement to avoid changing lane within intersections is actually more of a problem for me on 70 MPH expressways, such as K-254 between Bel Aire and El Dorado. There are two scenarios that come up from time to time: (a) I am in the right lane and want to pass a slower vehicle but have to pull into pole position and drop my speed until I clear a section-line intersection so I can move to the left lane and begin my overtaking maneuver, or (b) I am in the left lane, having just overtaken a vehicle in the right lane, and I would like to move right so I can let the vehicle following me execute its own overtaking maneuver, but a section-line intersection is coming up and I have to clear it before I can move right.
Even if there were no law against changing lane within intersections, I would not want to engage my turn signal
upstream of an intersection unless I were actually making a turn there, because misinterpretations and misjudgments very quickly become fatal at 70 MPH.
QuoteI've noticed that many drivers–yourself included, I guess–mistakenly think the gained lane becomes a right turn-only lane for SB I-235. In fact, it is an option lane for SB I-235 (easily see the two-headed arrow here (http://goo.gl/maps/aEIqH)), and only becomes an "only" lane for NB I-235. You can very well just stay in the rightmost lane the whole way, which I've done several times. That isn't to say there aren't a lot of cars in the rightmost lane, and that you mightn't be better off merging left and then right again, but that's another matter. So, yes, you would annoy me–though I wouldn't exactly call it anger.
I take your correction, but in the usual scenario I intend to turn
left at the ramp for northbound I-235, i.e., not into that ramp but rather into Westdale Drive. There is usually enough congestion in the I-235 interchange area (largely because the ramp lights are rarely green at the same time, so traffic on Zoo rarely achieves smooth flow through both signals) that if I have not made the far left lane by the southbound I-235 ramp, I have no hope of getting into the left-turn bay at the northbound ramp. The issue here is really one of gap acceptance--I insist on a much wider gap for this sequence of lane changes than you or I would be prepared to accept for a different itinerary. (This is not to say that I wouldn't still annoy you if you also wanted to turn onto Westdale, since I coast up to stoplights to limit powertrain and brake wear.)
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 10:13:42 PM
Quote
this must be different than in California, because here trucks use their flashers - in good weather and bad - when they're chugging up a hill doing 25 in a 65.
I've used the flashers myself when I had a flat tire and was crawling to the next exit, and also in the fog when I'm going 10 in a 65 (oh that was a fun one, over Siskiyou Pass).
I think flashers as "driver going abnormally slow" is a fairly good universal rule.
Agreed. I've used flashers when going abnormally slow. My cutoff is probably around 15 mph under the legal maximum. In those situations, I only turned them on when traffic was approaching from behind, and turned them off when no one was behind me. I greatly appreciate it when slow-moving vehicles use their hazards.
However, when I first read realjd's post, I didn't assume the cars in question were driving abnormally slowly. I just thought maybe drivers in Florida had a habit of flipping them on whenever the weather was icky. Makes more sense now, though.
I did mean when the weather is icky, particularly in hard rain and fog. If someone is going abnormally slow in good conditions, I agree hazard lights should be on since the vehicle is indeed a hazard. But in reduced visibility conditions when everyone is going slow? Hazard lights mean stopped, not "look at me these lights are bright!!!1". They can send the wrong message in critical cases when the lights are the only message, and they cause significant glare, particularly rearward. It's a problem everywhere but more so here because it rains so often.
Sources:
http://www.nbc-2.com/story/10682051/troopers-address-hazard-light-dangers
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2006-07-16/news/0607150206_1_sunpass-florida-s-turnpike-enterprise-windshields
http://www.lakecountyfl.gov/documents/employee_services/safety_program/driving_in_the_rain.pdf
Also, California:
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/honk-356806-stickers-vehicles.html
Vehicles tailgating you in the right lane, sometimes above the speed limit, because they want to get off the highway soon.
Vehicles tailgating you to go faster, when there's obviously a red light ahead (accusations of "hypermiling", anyone?), and even if there are 3+ cars ahead of you waiting at the signal, in which case the added speed wouldn't help even if the light did turn green right away.
It's not the best highway design to put a freeway merge in the left lane. But when it does happen, and one is unable or unwilling to break the speed limit for whatever reason, there's this trap: you merge in on the left, and immediately signal to get over to the right lane, where you "belong". But no one will let you over; no sooner does one car pass on the right, that the guy behind you changes lanes and passes you on the right as well. (Mad that you're blocking the left lane, but won't let you do anything about it either.) Repeat the cycle for a mile or two. Meanwhile, you're constantly focusing on your mirrors, not the road ahead of you as you should be.
Quote from: lepidopteran on May 13, 2013, 10:38:25 PM
Vehicles tailgating you in the right lane, sometimes above the speed limit, because they want to get off the highway soon.
That reminds me of another one here in FL. Not only do people try to merge onto the freeway at 40, they think they have to exit at that speed also. People will often move to the right lane and start driving really slow in preparation for the ever so slight right deflection into the actual deceleration lane. And then they'll floor it trying to race the light at the end of the ramp.
Another unrelated one: people who accelerate very... slowly... but have a high top speed, particularly on suburban arterials with widely spaced stop lights.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 13, 2013, 10:20:25 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 09:02:51 PMThe definition of "intersection" has led me to abandon the dream of never changing lanes within an intersection. Travelling at 45 mph, for example, it is quite difficult to time a lane change such that there is no minor cross street at any point during the maneuver–unless I make a very abrupt lane change, which I try to avoid (I change lanes more gradually than most drivers).
I don't have this problem, largely because the streets I drive on that are zoned for 45 MPH do not have cross streets at typical city-block density. At 35 or 40 MPH I can usually execute a lane change without difficulty in the length of a typical short city block. I consider my lane changes to be neither gradual nor abrupt--I just try to maintain consistency in signalling them well in advance. Cutting the amount of this advance notice to accommodate tight intersection spacing is the one concession I make.
The requirement to avoid changing lane within intersections is actually more of a problem for me on 70 MPH expressways, such as K-254 between Bel Aire and El Dorado. There are two scenarios that come up from time to time: (a) I am in the right lane and want to pass a slower vehicle but have to pull into pole position and drop my speed until I clear a section-line intersection so I can move to the left lane and begin my overtaking maneuver, or (b) I am in the left lane, having just overtaken a vehicle in the right lane, and I would like to move right so I can let the vehicle following me execute its own overtaking maneuver, but a section-line intersection is coming up and I have to clear it before I can move right.
Even if there were no law against changing lane within intersections, I would not want to engage my turn signal upstream of an intersection unless I were actually making a turn there, because misinterpretations and misjudgments very quickly become fatal at 70 MPH.
We definitely have different driving habits! I can't imagine driving such that I would drop my speed and wait to pass a truck just because I was approaching some gravel cross road, or that I would "hog" the left lane with someone wanting to pass me for the same reason. Also, the roads I drive 45 mph on generally aren't signed for 45. :) A good example would be Ridge Road between Maple and Central: nine intersections within one mile, and I'm typically driving somewhere around 45—48 mph (40 zone). Ain't no way I'm going to try and time my lane changes to fit neatly within those intersections.
How about these fairly universal ones:
Stopping within the crosswalk at a stop sign or stoplight.
Parking in a driveway with your car blocking the sidewalk.
And I don't know how it is elsewhere but, around here, when it snows, people think they no longer have to use their turn signals, look in their mirrors, or basically watch out for anybody else on the road. Wouldn't it make sense to be
more careful in inclement weather?
Most common violation -- still driving slightly over posted speed limits, though talking and texting on cellphones are coming up fast.
Quote from: realjd on May 13, 2013, 10:47:02 PM
Another unrelated one: people who accelerate very... slowly... but have a high top speed, particularly on suburban arterials with widely spaced stop lights.
I do this one, to some extent. Save a bundle on gasoline.
I had a roommate who did nothing but suburban driving in Chicagoland, yet he got more than 10 mpg
better than his car's rating. He did it by accelerating slowly, driving in a high gear (5th gear in a 35 zone was common for him), and immediately putting it in neutral when the next light turned red. I used to experiment with acceleration and top speed on arterials with widely spaced stoplights in DuPage County, and found that neither one had very much effect at all on my overall trip time. In fact, I would frequently pass drivers who had passed
me minutes earlier. I'd say accelerating quickly does the most good on urban roads with
closely spaced stoplights, and the least good the farther apart the signals are.
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 10:54:52 PM
Quote from: realjd on May 13, 2013, 10:47:02 PM
Another unrelated one: people who accelerate very... slowly... but have a high top speed, particularly on suburban arterials with widely spaced stop lights.
I do this one, to some extent. Save a bundle on gasoline.
I had a roommate who did nothing but suburban driving in Chicagoland, yet he got more than 10 mpg better than his car's rating. He did it by accelerating slowly, driving in a high gear (5th gear in a 35 zone was common for him), and immediately putting it in neutral when the next light turned red. I used to experiment with acceleration and top speed on arterials with widely spaced stoplights in DuPage County, and found that neither one had very much effect at all on my overall trip time. In fact, I would frequently pass drivers who had passed me minutes earlier. I'd say accelerating quickly does the most good on urban roads with closely spaced stoplights, and the least good the farther apart the signals are.
I didn't say slow acceleration didn't make sense from a practical standpoint, only that it was a pet peeve of mine :) I'm sure folks like you get just as annoyed at people like me who race away when the light turns green only to top out at around 5 over the limit. We'll just keep passing each other over and over again for miles!
Around here it's riding in the left lane for no reason. It seems most of these drivers are females in SUVs, I know because I turn to flip them off as I pass on the right! I think their problem is they dont know how to drive something that big and they dont know how to use their mirrors correctly to see that its safe to change lanes.
Just as bad is two vehicles riding side by side doing the same speed for miles and miles. Speed up, slow down, drive into the median I dont care get outta my way!
Not a mistake but just uncool is passing a long line of stopped traffic that you know is waiting to turn right and then forcing your way in at the last minute. I will NOT let you in front of me, if it comes to a collision so be it.
People driving without lights in the rain or at sunset. In my truck anytime I was on a road with cross traffic my headlights were on, I wanted people to see me from as far away as possible, 80,000 lbs coming atcha.
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 07:59:27 PM
Changing lanes within an intersection - quite innocuous unless someone is waiting for a break in traffic to turn into the unoccupied lane (see Cutting someone off by turning into... above).
I don't know about the legalities, but I don't do that because when I did it during my driver's test in California in the early '70s, that was the only thing the examiner dinged me on (not enough to flunk the test, though).
A common mistake made on Indiana surface streets that I haven't seen elsewhere is to drift to the left before making a right turn. The driver gets in the turn lane, or near the curb in the absence of a turn lane, and drifts well to the left before turning. It looks almost like the driver has to "wind up" the steering wheel. This can be a hazard to those continuing straight through.
Another practice in South Bend that is so common that it can hardly be considered an "error" is entering intersections on yellow or "pink" lights. Stopping for yellow lights here is so rare that you're asking to be rear-ended if you do. I'm often amazed when I think I was really pushing it entering an intersection late on a yellow, that turned red before I cleared the intersection. I glance back in the mirror and see that two cars have followed me through!
I can only figure that the practice of running pink lights has developed from the frequent icy winter (and fall and spring) road conditions, which make slamming on the brakes ill-advised. And the fact that the local authorities seem to have little interest in enforcing "minor" infractions.
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 10:50:00 PM
Stopping within the crosswalk at a stop sign or stoplight.
I will admit that I do this pretty frequently, but due to design issues. If I stop behind the actual stop line at some intersections, I have absolutely no hope of seeing beyond the parked cars to the actual travel lane.
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 05:13:11 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 13, 2013, 04:44:18 PM
the most common driver mistake around Chicagoland.
Turning left after the light turned red seven seconds ago.
To be fair, at least around here, a lot of times it's the people coming from the opposite direction that cause this to happen. The person trying to turn left has pulled out into the intersection, as he/she should, and then has no choice but to wait to finish making the turn until the jerks coming from the other direction decide to stop running the light.
We also have something we call "the Pittsburgh left" - and I am hesitant to take full credit for this maneuver as a region, but I honestly have not seen it so widely practiced anywhere else that I have ever been - wherein a car waiting to make a left turn at a red light floors it as soon as the light changes and makes the turn in front of the oncoming traffic. Not really a "mistake," per se, as it's a conscious decision, but still totally improper.
Another one that really irritates me is when people don't signal before attempting to parallel park when there's clearly other traffic right behind them.
Quote from: oscar on May 13, 2013, 05:05:11 PM
My bigger peeves are (1) drivers not using their turn signals even with other traffic present, and (2) drivers speeding up, rather than maintaining speed or slowing down, when I signal my intention to move into their lane. The D.C. area is notorious for (2), which in turn makes (1) worse.
Yep! When I was first learning how to drive, my dad had me drive to DC and taught me these rules:
- if you want to get in front of someone, don't Signal.
- if you want to get someone out of your way, signal so that they speed up and open the lane for you.
In Baltimore City, the most common errors:
Unintentional: people trying to turn left on the wrong one-way street ( I see this most with the 28th/29th street pair of streets)
Intentional: turning left on streets clearly marked as no left turn during rush hour. Lol at some intersections there are two signs posted - old faded, one new, because the people tried to complain about the poor signage when trying to get out of a ticket.
Intentional: there's always that one car who didn't move out of the convertible rush hour driving/parking the rest of the time lane.
One day the flashing yellow arrow is going to be on here.
Quote from: US 41 on May 14, 2013, 08:17:00 AM
One day the flashing yellow arrow is going to be on here.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=2983.0
It already is.
Quote from: Kacie Jane on May 14, 2013, 12:07:19 AM
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 10:50:00 PM
Stopping within the crosswalk at a stop sign or stoplight.
I will admit that I do this pretty frequently, but due to design issues. If I stop behind the actual stop line at some intersections, I have absolutely no hope of seeing beyond the parked cars to the actual travel lane.
Quite understandable. And I do that too...
after stopping in
advance of the crosswalk to make sure there are no pedestrians close enough for me to block while waiting for a gap. Only then do I make a second "creep" out into the crosswalk.
Quote from: realjd on May 13, 2013, 11:15:54 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 10:54:52 PM
Quote from: realjd on May 13, 2013, 10:47:02 PM
Another unrelated one: people who accelerate very... slowly... but have a high top speed, particularly on suburban arterials with widely spaced stop lights.
I do this one, to some extent. Save a bundle on gasoline.
I had a roommate who did nothing but suburban driving in Chicagoland, yet he got more than 10 mpg better than his car's rating. He did it by accelerating slowly, driving in a high gear (5th gear in a 35 zone was common for him), and immediately putting it in neutral when the next light turned red. I used to experiment with acceleration and top speed on arterials with widely spaced stoplights in DuPage County, and found that neither one had very much effect at all on my overall trip time. In fact, I would frequently pass drivers who had passed me minutes earlier. I'd say accelerating quickly does the most good on urban roads with closely spaced stoplights, and the least good the farther apart the signals are.
I didn't say slow acceleration didn't make sense from a practical standpoint, only that it was a pet peeve of mine :) I'm sure folks like you get just as annoyed at people like me who race away when the light turns green only to top out at around 5 over the limit. We'll just keep passing each other over and over again for miles!
I'm less annoyed by that behavior, probably, then you are by mine. And I've found that those who totally gun it at a green light either top out at exactly the speed limit or roughly 600 mph over the speed limit. Few actually stick to 5 mph (which is generally what I go).
One of my pet peeves that I haven't seen mentioned yet:
Drivers in the right lane of a highway that slow down to let someone merge into the highway. WRONG! The motorist coming onto the highway have to merge in around the vehicle already on the highway.
This is especially bad considering the motorist in the right lane is going about 65 mph or so. The motorist coming up the on-ramp is doing, maybe, 40 mph max. So if the motorist in the right lane just continued at his present speed, he'd pass the entering car with no problem. Instead, that car slows down. The entering car is speeding up, but unsure what the car in the right lane is doing.
Quote from: wxfree on May 13, 2013, 04:37:38 PM
One that bothers me is people who have the right-of-way and don't try to wave it off. When approaching a stop sign wanting to turn left, I hate when the driver across, with no turn signal and presumably going straight, wants me to go first. Instead of us both waiting for each others, he should go first...
Very annoying if the incoming car is waiting for a line of cars to go past, and the very last car in that line is going to be the "nice" guy to let someone out. I know I'm paying attention to the huge gap behind that last vehicle, and not expecting the last vehicle to slow down or stop.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 13, 2013, 08:17:45 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 13, 2013, 08:02:29 PM
* Yield (you can keep moving if no conflicts - especially when you're on a ramp with an added lane)
do added-lane on ramps even have YIELD signs? I don't think I've explicitly noticed one way or the other.
It generally depends on any possible conflicting merging up ahead. If the added-lane on doesn't have an immediate need for the traffic in the general (faster) lanes to move into that lane to get to an exit, then there generally won't be a Yield sign. But if there's a fairly close exit, then there is a Yield sign. But, like in my example above, more often than not motorists will fly thru the Yield sign, and the vehicle in the general lanes is the one that slows down to move over.
One of the biggest driving mistakes I see on the freeways downstate, and even in Chicagoland is entering the freeway ay a low rate of speed instead of getting up to speed and entering at the flow speed of the freeway. These folks seem to think it's OK to enter a freeway at 40 mph. :banghead: The ramp is for getting up to speed, folks, say like 70 mph.
Where to begin? I could go on for days!
For the moment I'll cite the following. But a lot of these aren't really "mistakes" because people do a lot of them intentionally. Also, one of the weird dynamics of driving in the DC area is that there are so many vehicles with non-local plates that are driven by people who do live here (military, Congress, etc.). In many places, some people are often inclined to cut a tourist a break because he may not know where he's going. I think some of the people here with the non-local plates try to take advantage of that.
–I frequently see cars being driven at night with no headlights on, or with just the parking lights.
–Staying to the left until the last possible instant and then trying to force one's way across three or four lanes to exit. I don't necessarily mean left-lane hogs, either–just people who seem to have a complete terror of ever being in the right lane. This "wait to the last instant to try to exit" behavior seems more common in Maryland than in Virginia.
–The flip side of the above: Long line of cars waiting to exit a highway and somebody drives down the thru lane and stops on the striped area at the gore point trying to shove his way in. (Alternatively, I often see this on a street where the left lane becomes left-turn-only onto I-495 and only the other two lanes are thru; people use the left-turn lane to cut ahead.)
–In stopped or very slow traffic, some people persist in getting over a mile in advance and then declaring war on the people who go to the end and alternate-merge. The problem with getting over in advance in slow/stopped traffic is two-fold. First, you're effectively wasting that lane–what's the point of having it at all if you're suddenly saying nobody is allowed to use it? Second, you're creating a thousand designated merge points as each driver comes up with a different spot where he feels people should get over. (Let me emphasize that I'm only referring to slow/stopped traffic. If traffic is moving freely I agree you get over in a way that lets you do so without hitting the brakes.)
–Turning out of whatever lane one is in instead of going around the block. (This includes turning right from the left-turn-only lane, turning from a straight-only lane, etc.)
–Pulling out into the intersection to wait for a gap to turn left such that nobody wanting to turn left from the other direction can see anything. SUV drivers are really bad about this. It's not unusual in some places for people to pull out to wait to turn, perhaps clearing the intersection after the light goes red (this is technically illegal in some places). But it's damn obnoxious to do it in a way that prevents people on the other side of the intersection from seeing whether it's clear to make their own left turn. I find that as a general matter a lot more people DO NOT pull out than was the case back in the late 1980s when I first got my driver's license, and I know I often don't pull out at all nowadays, and the reason is that frankly it's often easier to see if you stay behind the line–you have a wider field of vision to see around large SUVs or minivans. (It's similar to the concept behind why a goalie sometimes skates out to challenge the shooter instead of staying in the crease.)
–People leaving a full car length between vehicles when stopped at a red light. I understand the theory of leaving yourself room to get out, or of not being too close lest you get rear-ended. But it's damn annoying when you're trying to get into the turn lane and you can't only because people are leaving such excessive amounts of space and are so engrossed in their mobile phones that they don't see you trying to get into the turn lane (even more so when it's a left-turn lane without a permissive green).
–In my neighborhood, the speed limit is 25 mph and the street leading in and out has a double yellow line. I regularly see people driving half over the double yellow line because they want to go 35 to 40 mph. The other day I was close to the double yellow so as to avoid a squirrel and a guy coming the other way partially over the line blew the horn at me as though I was somehow in his way.
Finally, this morning I was stopped waiting for this school bus and I found myself wondering about the "stop for school bus" rules for the cars coming the other way (see the blurry car in the distance). Normally in Virginia if there is a median you need not stop, but if a school bus stops at an intersection, all traffic coming from all directions must stop. The guy coming the other way here didn't stop; neither did the guy in that black Toyota to the left (nor a couple of other people ahead of him). I suspect they think the median means they need not stop. But based on my recollection of the DMV manual, the fact that it's an intersection trumps. If the school bus driver stopped about two bus lanes further back (like to the right of where I'm stopped in this picture), then there would be no issue–he wouldn't be at the intersection and people could go. I suspect the reason the bus stop is not further back like that is that there is another, much more important intersection just behind me and they quite rightly don't want the bus stopped in a place where someone coming around the blind corner will be startled by it.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FMiscellaneousMay2013042_zpsd51b365d.jpg&hash=17b0918efa4b83bd20d8d8ef63d1a62d52a87c49)
In the Terre Haute area everyone speeds, they don't do complete stops at stop signs, they don't stop at red lights when they don't turn right. Nothing serious and the same stuff probably goes on everywhere. I guess TH people are decent drivers. I have seen a few knuckleheads.
Quote from: roadman65 on May 13, 2013, 04:04:28 PM
I am just curious, as everyday we see other idiots on the road doing crazy driving maneuvers. Some drive us crazy at times, and some even we yell mostly at the other individual with our windows closed to vent. There is no end to it and we could write a 2000 page book on every incident another driver does something stupid or unethical. However, I am interested in knowing what driver mistake that you each see in your local area on a regular basis takes place the most. I basically want to see if bad driving habits are the same everyplace around or not.
New York City: by far the most common error has to be violating "Keep Right Except to Pass". Close seconds must be: not signalling, failure to yield to pedestrians (except grudgingly), and of course mis-use of the horn. Oh, and then there are parking errors, also on-topic since they are committed by drivers as well.
EDIT: How could I forget...merging into a spot where there is a vehicle, rather than where there isn't. This violates such basic logic that I can't understand it. Do these people walk into the walls of their house to get to other rooms, because it's the shortest path?
Actually, would you mind if I just leave to your imagination what the common mistakes of NYC drivers are? My own brain hurts just trying to list them all. :-) ...although it is interesting that the raft of errors typically made in NYC seems to be a different raft from that in Chicagoland, LA, or other major cities.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 13, 2013, 04:36:35 PM
(the fact that cars come with blind spots is pretty damn silly in and of itself.)
They don't. Blind spots come with mis-aligned mirrors. (I suppose that counts as a driver mistake in most areas of the country, huh?)
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 13, 2013, 05:19:24 PM
Very common errors in Wichita (in addition to not signalling lane changes, which I think Kphoger mentioned above):
* Using a TWLTL to stage left turns out of driveways
Not an error in New York; rather, it's the legal and proper way to use such a lane, as discussed lengthily in another recent thread. In fact, I'd count not-knowing-that-this-is-how-those-lanes-are-to-be-used as a common driver mistake itself.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 13, 2013, 08:09:34 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 13, 2013, 08:08:15 PM
So if you're at an intersection with a camera, you're supposed to just take the ticket?
I have not been in NYC in a while, but I have not seen an intersection with a camera. perhaps traffic patterns have changed since ~2009.
Still a common behavior in outer boroughs where speeds are higher and vehicles outnumber pedestrians. In Manhattan, there is typically too much density of traffic for any great number of red light streamers to get through.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 14, 2013, 10:32:39 AM
–People leaving a full car length between vehicles when stopped at a red light. I understand the theory of leaving yourself room to get out, or of not being too close lest you get rear-ended. But it's damn annoying when you're trying to get into the turn lane and you can't only because people are leaving such excessive amounts of space and are so engrossed in their mobile phones that they don't see you trying to get into the turn lane (even more so when it's a left-turn lane without a permissive green).
Speaking from past personal experience here, some people leave extra room at a red light so they're aren't breathing in a bunch of exhaust from the vehicle in front of them. Especially when there's a baby in the car.
Quote from: Brandon on May 14, 2013, 10:08:06 AM
One of the biggest driving mistakes I see on the freeways downstate, and even in Chicagoland is entering the freeway ay a low rate of speed instead of getting up to speed and entering at the flow speed of the freeway. These folks seem to think it's OK to enter a freeway at 40 mph. :banghead: The ramp is for getting up to speed, folks, say like 70 mph.
I don't recall the minimum speed limit on Illinois interstates, but here in Kansas it's 40 mph–which means that entering a highway at 40 mph
is "up to speed". I usually aim for at least 45 mph, and preferably closer to 55 mph, but I hardly ever aim to be at full cruising speed at the merge point. I've found that keeping the tach needle under 2200 rpm upon entering the highway saves about 3 or 4 mpg in our van.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 14, 2013, 10:03:56 AM
One of my pet peeves that I haven't seen mentioned yet:
Drivers in the right lane of a highway that slow down to let someone merge into the highway. WRONG! The motorist coming onto the highway have to merge in around the vehicle already on the highway.
This is especially bad considering the motorist in the right lane is going about 65 mph or so. The motorist coming up the on-ramp is doing, maybe, 40 mph max. So if the motorist in the right lane just continued at his present speed, he'd pass the entering car with no problem. Instead, that car slows down. The entering car is speeding up, but unsure what the car in the right lane is doing.
In much of the country, slowing down some to allow a vehicle to enter is common courtesy. The problem is that many drivers are quite bad at judging relative speeds–whether it's better to continue their course, slow down, or move over into the other lane. The
worst is when the entering car and travelling car are going about the same speed and
each one slows down for the other. I've found that a good rule of thumb is to not slow down by more than 5 mph to let a car enter, but to be very willing to give up that 5 mph. Within that window, the entering car has plenty of room to either speed up and merge in front, or slow down slightly and merge behind.
Quote from: kphoger on May 14, 2013, 11:53:56 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 14, 2013, 10:32:39 AM
–People leaving a full car length between vehicles when stopped at a red light. I understand the theory of leaving yourself room to get out, or of not being too close lest you get rear-ended. But it's damn annoying when you're trying to get into the turn lane and you can't only because people are leaving such excessive amounts of space and are so engrossed in their mobile phones that they don't see you trying to get into the turn lane (even more so when it's a left-turn lane without a permissive green).
Speaking from past personal experience here, some people leave extra room at a red light so they're aren't breathing in a bunch of exhaust from the vehicle in front of them. Especially when there's a baby in the car.
Just enough room to see the bottom of the tires on the pavement should be sufficient. It's just enough room to get around them should they stall on the green.
Quote
Quote from: Brandon on May 14, 2013, 10:08:06 AM
One of the biggest driving mistakes I see on the freeways downstate, and even in Chicagoland is entering the freeway ay a low rate of speed instead of getting up to speed and entering at the flow speed of the freeway. These folks seem to think it's OK to enter a freeway at 40 mph. :banghead: The ramp is for getting up to speed, folks, say like 70 mph.
I don't recall the minimum speed limit on Illinois interstates, but here in Kansas it's 40 mph–which means that entering a highway at 40 mph is "up to speed". I usually aim for at least 45 mph, and preferably closer to 55 mph, but I hardly ever aim to be at full cruising speed at the merge point. I've found that keeping the tach needle under 2200 rpm upon entering the highway saves about 3 or 4 mpg in our van.
No, you should be up to the flow speed when entering, otherwise you will create an issue with traffic already on the freeway. If you do not enter the freeway at the flow speed, you deserve to be run over by the vehicles already on the freeway. Maybe that's a major difference between the Illinois way of entering a freeway and the Detroit way of entering a freeway (which is the way I learned).
Quote
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 14, 2013, 10:03:56 AM
One of my pet peeves that I haven't seen mentioned yet:
Drivers in the right lane of a highway that slow down to let someone merge into the highway. WRONG! The motorist coming onto the highway have to merge in around the vehicle already on the highway.
This is especially bad considering the motorist in the right lane is going about 65 mph or so. The motorist coming up the on-ramp is doing, maybe, 40 mph max. So if the motorist in the right lane just continued at his present speed, he'd pass the entering car with no problem. Instead, that car slows down. The entering car is speeding up, but unsure what the car in the right lane is doing.
In much of the country, slowing down some to allow a vehicle to enter is common courtesy. The problem is that many drivers are quite bad at judging relative speeds–whether it's better to continue their course, slow down, or move over into the other lane. The worst is when the entering car and travelling car are going about the same speed and each one slows down for the other. I've found that a good rule of thumb is to not slow down by more than 5 mph to let a car enter, but to be very willing to give up that 5 mph. Within that window, the entering car has plenty of room to either speed up and merge in front, or slow down slightly and merge behind.
You do not slow down for them. If anything, you move over to let them in. Otherwise, they are on their own as they are ones merging and must adjust their speed accordingly. It's easy to adjust your speed when you are near the flow speed of the freeway. If not, then you will cause an issue with the traffic on the freeway.
Quote from: kphoger on May 14, 2013, 11:53:56 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 14, 2013, 10:03:56 AM
One of my pet peeves that I haven't seen mentioned yet:
Drivers in the right lane of a highway that slow down to let someone merge into the highway. WRONG! The motorist coming onto the highway have to merge in around the vehicle already on the highway.
This is especially bad considering the motorist in the right lane is going about 65 mph or so. The motorist coming up the on-ramp is doing, maybe, 40 mph max. So if the motorist in the right lane just continued at his present speed, he'd pass the entering car with no problem. Instead, that car slows down. The entering car is speeding up, but unsure what the car in the right lane is doing.
In much of the country, slowing down some to allow a vehicle to enter is common courtesy. The problem is that many drivers are quite bad at judging relative speeds–whether it's better to continue their course, slow down, or move over into the other lane. The worst is when the entering car and travelling car are going about the same speed and each one slows down for the other. I've found that a good rule of thumb is to not slow down by more than 5 mph to let a car enter, but to be very willing to give up that 5 mph. Within that window, the entering car has plenty of room to either speed up and merge in front, or slow down slightly and merge behind.
The person on the highway has the right-of-way, not the person entering the highway. If the person on the highway slows down, then the person behind them has to slow down, and the person behind that person slows down, and omg...you have the beginning of a traffic jam.
It's no different than entering a roundabout - the person entering yields to those already there.
It's very rare for someone on an onramp to be going the speed of traffic on the highway. And even if that happens, it's still the driver of the vehicle entering the highway's responsibility to adjust for others, not the other way around.
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 10:54:52 PM
Quote from: realjd on May 13, 2013, 10:47:02 PM
Another unrelated one: people who accelerate very... slowly... but have a high top speed, particularly on suburban arterials with widely spaced stop lights.
I do this one, to some extent. Save a bundle on gasoline.
I had a roommate who did nothing but suburban driving in Chicagoland, yet he got more than 10 mpg better than his car's rating. He did it by accelerating slowly, driving in a high gear (5th gear in a 35 zone was common for him), and immediately putting it in neutral when the next light turned red. I used to experiment with acceleration and top speed on arterials with widely spaced stoplights in DuPage County, and found that neither one had very much effect at all on my overall trip time. In fact, I would frequently pass drivers who had passed me minutes earlier. I'd say accelerating quickly does the most good on urban roads with closely spaced stoplights, and the least good the farther apart the signals are.
yep, that's about how I got 44mpg out of an '89 Escort. lots of coasting out of gear.
one thing I have not noticed mentioned here, but seems to be a pretty serious problem in California is lane discipline in multilane turns.
there is an intersection near my work that has a triple right turn, southbound to westbound. see here:
http://goo.gl/maps/6zOGq
in fact, see the vehicle in the rightmost lane, about to encroach upon the middle turn lane! I drive this road every day to get home from work, and I would say that about 25% of the time, if I am in the middle turn lane, I need to explicitly move into the leftmost turn lane to avoid someone in the right turn lane about to hit me!
this is equivalent to "do not change lanes into someone" except, while people have a moderately good grasp of this going straight, they seem to lose their shit completely when going around a corner.
and one more: that damn "move over or slow down" law. I have been run into the median on multiple occasions by trucks who think it means "move over, regardless of who is in the left lane".
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 10:13:42 PMQuote from: Brandon on May 13, 2013, 09:14:51 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on May 13, 2013, 08:28:19 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 07:59:27 PMChanging lanes within an intersection - quite innocuous unless someone is waiting for a break in traffic to turn into the unoccupied lane (see Cutting someone off by turning into... above).
In most cases it may be innocuous, but it is de jure illegal and a person can be ticketed for it. I generally avoid changing lanes within intersections for this reason. It has the side effect of ensuring that I don't confuse anyone waiting at the intersection whom I cannot see but who can see my turn signal (I always signal lane changes) and misinterpret it to our mutual disadvantage.
Since when was this illegal on a multilane street? On a two-lane, yes, but I've never seen where it is illegal when you have multiple lanes in your direction. You wait for traffic to clear all lanes before moving out into traffic, otherwise the accident is your fault.
Wait.... Are you saying you didn't think it was illegal, but you assumed any accident resulting from doing so would be your fault? I guess both of those can be true, but it seemed strange to read it.
Some casual Web searching confirms that Brandon is correct in that a ticket can be issued to the right-turning driver who, by failing to anticipate another vehicle changing lane to put itself on a conflicting path, contributes to an accident. But actually a ticket can be issued to the lane-changing driver for making an unsafe lane change. In other words,
both drivers get ticketed (as, I would argue, is proper, since both drivers have failed to drive defensively).
http://www.lacantdrive.com/2008/05/30/is-it-legal-to-change-lanes-in-an-intersection/
The above website is oriented at Southern California drivers, so the California Vehicle Code is cited as authority. However, the relevant provisions of CVC are mirrored in Kansas law.
QuoteFor what it's worth, I can similarly find no vehicle code in Kansas law which prohibits changing lanes within an intersection–even though I was told in driver's ed that it's prohibited. J N Winkler, can you provide a code reference?
I checked and it appears there is no provision in law which bans changing lane in intersections as such. However, KSA § 8-1522 ("Driving on roadways laned for traffic") is the equivalent of CVC 21658 in California--most tickets for changing lane in intersections in California cite CVC 21658(a), which prohibits a driver from changing lane until he or she has first ascertained that the maneuver is safe. In addition, KSA § 8-1519 prohibits a driver from being on the left side of the roadway within 100 feet of an intersection or railroad grade crossing, otherwise than on a one-way roadway or in preparation for an upcoming left turn.
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2013, 10:50:00 PMWe definitely have different driving habits! I can't imagine driving such that I would drop my speed and wait to pass a truck just because I was approaching some gravel cross road, or that I would "hog" the left lane with someone wanting to pass me for the same reason.
Neither situation arises often. On expressways in Kansas, it is not uncommon to stop up gravel cross roads (example from expressway perspective (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Halstead,+KS&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Halstead,+Harvey,+Kansas&ll=37.855226,-97.60999&spn=0.001065,0.002411&t=m&z=19&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=37.855344,-97.610083&panoid=AGVTb4--ph7sjhaIfX61-g&cbp=12,201.03,,0,5.01); another example, from side-road perspective (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Halstead,+KS&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Halstead,+Harvey,+Kansas&ll=37.87307,-97.628653&spn=0.001073,0.002411&t=m&z=19&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=37.87307,-97.628653&panoid=jV0Gkx8ZDiMlbt95xW9_tg&cbp=12,337.68,,0,3); both on K-96 between Maize and Hutchinson). On two-lane state highways, you can't be in the middle of an intersection anyway when you are on the left side of the road to execute an overtaking maneuver--this is explicitly prohibited by KSA § 8-1519.
QuoteAlso, the roads I drive 45 mph on generally aren't signed for 45. :) A good example would be Ridge Road between Maple and Central: nine intersections within one mile, and I'm typically driving somewhere around 45—48 mph (40 zone). Ain't no way I'm going to try and time my lane changes to fit neatly within those intersections.
I drive that length of Ridge from time to time, setting my cruise control within 2 MPH of the posted 40 limit, and I have no problem timing lane changes to avoid intersections. I accept the point that by speeding 5-8 MPH over the limit, you are matching the usual operating speeds on this segment, but I have good reasons for choosing not to do so. There are many apartment complexes in the area, which translates into a surfeit of young, impulsive drivers waiting on side roads who have to be helped not to make bad decisions. If that means I have to drive like a blue-rinse old lady, so be it. There is also a lot of congestion on this stretch (apartment complexes imply higher densities than SFRs), so I keep my task loading to manageable levels by not watching for police running radar.
QuoteHow about these fairly universal ones:
Stopping within the crosswalk at a stop sign or stoplight.
You can also include fouling the stop bar, which is upstream of the crosswalk. I try to avoid doing this but often cannot.
QuoteParking in a driveway with your car blocking the sidewalk.
I try to avoid this, if necessary by parking in the street, though I question whether it is an obstruction in the legal sense--it depends on whether the driveway apron is considered open to public travel. (The obstruction is more of a problem for cyclists, who arguably should not be on the sidewalk in the first place.)
Quote from: empirestate on May 14, 2013, 11:08:54 AMQuote from: J N Winkler on May 13, 2013, 05:19:24 PMVery common errors in Wichita (in addition to not signalling lane changes, which I think Kphoger mentioned above):
* Using a TWLTL to stage left turns out of driveways
Not an error in New York; rather, it's the legal and proper way to use such a lane, as discussed lengthily in another recent thread. In fact, I'd count not-knowing-that-this-is-how-those-lanes-are-to-be-used as a common driver mistake itself.
Legal, yes; proper, no. Because of the line-of-sight issues described upthread, it is a very unsafe maneuver and is to be avoided whenever possible. It really should not be legal in the first place, and banning it would give highway agencies an incentive to implement proper access management.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 14, 2013, 10:32:39 AM
Finally, this morning I was stopped waiting for this school bus and I found myself wondering about the "stop for school bus" rules for the cars coming the other way (see the blurry car in the distance). Normally in Virginia if there is a median you need not stop, but if a school bus stops at an intersection, all traffic coming from all directions must stop. The guy coming the other way here didn't stop; neither did the guy in that black Toyota to the left (nor a couple of other people ahead of him). I suspect they think the median means they need not stop. But based on my recollection of the DMV manual, the fact that it's an intersection trumps. If the school bus driver stopped about two bus lanes further back (like to the right of where I'm stopped in this picture), then there would be no issue–he wouldn't be at the intersection and people could go. I suspect the reason the bus stop is not further back like that is that there is another, much more important intersection just behind me and they quite rightly don't want the bus stopped in a place where someone coming around the blind corner will be startled by it.
In Delaware if a road has four lanes or more, traffic going the other way need not stop.
On my former commute (I used to park on the street in front of my house, now I park in the alley in the back) I would invariably come to a corner where a school bus was stopped in the other direction to pick up a handicapped child. Since I was turning right, the driver would give me the "Delaware wave" and let me go by. (That wave is common courtesy around here - often given when one car would otherwise have to wait forever to turn into traffic.)
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 14, 2013, 12:47:44 PMand one more: that damn "move over or slow down" law. I have been run into the median on multiple occasions by trucks who think it means "move over, regardless of who is in the left lane".
Personally, I have long felt that move-over laws should DIAF. But I can see that they came about as the line-of-least-resistance approach toward ensuring officer safety at the highway shoulder. The alternative of creating a duty on the driver being pulled over to drive to a ramp or intersecting low-volume road, or at minimum to wait until he or she encounters a full-width shoulder and then pull onto it so that the right-hand tires are on the shoulder edge, etc. would make it difficult to prosecute flee/elude LEO cases.
also, while changing lanes on a freeway: putting on a turn signal, waiting several seconds, and then verrrrry slowlllly creeping over into the target lane.
dude, I see what you're trying to do. get it done already.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 14, 2013, 10:03:56 AM
One of my pet peeves that I haven't seen mentioned yet:
Drivers in the right lane of a highway that slow down to let someone merge into the highway
Worse yet, the ones who let people in driveways turn in in front of them when the light is green, causing me to miss the way-too-short green light.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 13, 2013, 10:09:22 PM
Quote from: realjd on May 13, 2013, 09:27:27 PM
* Emergency flashers on in the rain or in fog. Flashers are for stopped cars ONLY and driving with them on is a significant safety hazard. FHP will ticket for it. But do turn in your headlights. Cars with hazards on but not headlights = double fail.
this must be different than in California, because here trucks use their flashers - in good weather and bad - when they're chugging up a hill doing 25 in a 65.
I've used the flashers myself when I had a flat tire and was crawling to the next exit, and also in the fog when I'm going 10 in a 65 (oh that was a fun one, over Siskiyou Pass).
I think flashers as "driver going abnormally slow" is a fairly good universal rule.
Many states REQUIRE 4-way flashers for any vehicle going under a certain speed on a grade, or due to other circumstances.
This is a great thread, thanks for starting it, roadman65!
In the Denver Metro, where I do most of my driving, I find the string of left-turners platooning through the left red arrow very annoying. It is common to see 6-8 "extra" vehicles doing so. I wonder why I NEVER see a ticket written for this. I slowly start to drift start into the intersection (if going straight through,) with a continuous horn blast. My goal is to at least draw attention to them, but better if there is a cop around; of course, there never is.
Next, those who choose to relinquish their right-of-way (ROW) to me. They might have been clearly at the 4-way stop 5 seconds before me, but will wait until I stop, figure out their plan, and then go, or maybe not. I would have been there less time in the first place if they just fully stopped and went on as they should have in the first place. Sometimes I feel as if it could be a bait and switch and they will ram me if I take them up on their offer. The camera would show me in the wrong; their little hand wave would never show upon tape to defend my action.
Straying from the topic a bit, when I first started driving in Downtown Denver (in the 1980's,) it was the first time I had seen legal "left turn on red," in the case of two one-way streets intersecting in the correct alignment. It makes perfect sense, but to this day I do not think I have ever seen a sign noting is acceptability.
Clueless freeway merging — drivers who think they have the ROW upon entering the highway, or those who are well under an appropriate speed to merge, and I have to do likewise behind them. Also, merging drivers who merge into the left lane of 3 lanes or more immediately, usually with no regard for whom they interfere with or inconvenience. I have even seen tractor trailer drivers do this. Having driven class 8 trucks, I have been the recipient of these multi-lane mergers, and some of these freaks are lucky to have driven away from their stupidity.
Why is it so often the driver of a gray colored vehicle who refuses to "burn" their headlights (tip of the hat, NC!) in a torrential downpour?
Drivers who leave too little or too much room between them and the car in front of them while waiting for a green light.
Drivers who will not pull up a foot or two to allow you to get into an available left or right turn lane. Usually they are oblivious to the outside world, as so many seem to be.
Turn signals implemented after the lane change or turn is occurring, or those who think one or two blinks is sufficient. Of course, many do both of these in one fell swoop.
It seems that the common opinion on here holds two things about merging traffic that don't jive very well in my driving experience:
(1) Entering traffic should be at full cruising speed by the time they get on the highway; and
(2) Through traffic should not alter its speed for merging traffic, rather merging traffic should alter its speed.
Too many times, this has put me side-by-side with a vehicle (sometimes an 18-wheeler) mere yards from the end of my acceleration lane. I, as entering traffic find it much easier to find a gap in traffic if there is at least 5 mph difference between my speed and the prevailing speed of through traffic. Since the through traffic in question is usually in the slow lane (most on-ramps come from the right), which means it is moving at the slower end of the speed continuum, I actually find it easier to merge at 5—10 mph under the posted speed limit.
A case in point is my daily commute home from work, where I merge from SB I-135 to EB Kellogg (http://goo.gl/maps/Z3GG3). Traffic speeds on Kellogg vary greatly at rush hour, especially in the right lane. Sometimes it's flowing at 65 mph, sometimes it's at a dead standstill. The interchange being a turban turbine whirlpool interchange, there is plenty of room to accelerate to cruising speed on the ramp, but the length of the actual acceleration lane (from gore to taper) is very short. If I accelerate to 60 mph (the speed limit) and traffic is moving at 42 mph, then I end up having to hit my brakes again, and what was the point of speeding up that much in the first place? If I accelerate to 60 mph and traffic is moving at 60 mph, then there's a good chance I'll be neck and neck with a truck and no wiggle room. If I accelerate to 60 mph and traffic is moving at 6 mph, then things get hairy. Instead, I find it much easier to approach the merge at about 45 mph–still slow enough to slam on my brakes if need be, but fast enough to accelerate to 55 or 60 by the time anyone else would have to hit their brakes–or at least do anything more than tap them.
a 5-10 mph difference in speed is indeed very helpful.
if the fast lane is moving 77, and the slow lane 67, then you can merge at one of two speeds:
1) 57mph. staid but respectable.
2) 77mph. it is elegantly also the speed of the fast lane.
under no circumstances is merging at slower than 57mph acceptable.
also, it helps to know the speed of traffic of the freeway being joined. if you are anticipating 6mph traffic, then accelerating even to 40mph may be incautious. usually, in this case, the onramp is backed up as well - at least in my experience.
Quote from: djsinco on May 14, 2013, 02:59:12 PM
Next, those who choose to relinquish their right-of-way (ROW) to me. They might have been clearly at the 4-way stop 5 seconds before me, but will wait until I stop, figure out their plan, and then go, or maybe not. I would have been there less time in the first place if they just fully stopped and went on as they should have in the first place.
Quite common around here too. Especially annoying, since I work right by a four-way where this happens all the time. I've gotten to the point that I just don't feel like waiting for them to figure out the situation. Have you ever rolled up to a four-way, and found vehicles on all three other approaches trying to figure out who should go first? When I roll up to that situation, I just go first, even though I got there last. I'm not going to waste my time, and everyone's behind me, waiting for them to figure out how stop signs work.
Quote from: djsinco on May 14, 2013, 02:59:12 PM
Also, merging drivers who merge into the left lane of 3 lanes or more immediately, usually with no regard for whom they interfere with or inconvenience.
Also very common here. I've even seen drivers do that, putting themselves directly behind another car in the center lane, then change lanes
back to the right again to go around. Would have been much simpler to just stay in the right lane.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 14, 2013, 03:17:50 PM
a 5-10 mph difference in speed is indeed very helpful.
if the fast lane is moving 77, and the slow lane 67, then you can merge at one of two speeds:
1) 57mph. staid but respectable.
2) 77mph. it is elegantly also the speed of the fast lane.
under no circumstances is merging at slower than 57mph acceptable.
Around here, the flow of traffic is seldom above 65 mph and is usually pretty close to the posted limit of 60. In heavy traffic, the center lane is more like 50 or 55.
Quote from: kphoger on May 14, 2013, 03:18:16 PM
Quite common around here too. Especially annoying, since I work right by a four-way where this happens all the time. I've gotten to the point that I just don't feel like waiting for them to figure out the situation. Have you ever rolled up to a four-way, and found vehicles on all three other approaches trying to figure out who should go first? When I roll up to that situation, I just go first, even though I got there last. I'm not going to waste my time, and everyone's behind me, waiting for them to figure out how stop signs work.
the worst is when you're behind someone who is sitting there, studying the Uniform Vehicle Code by chapter and verse, looking for inconsistencies and loopholes.
there have been times when I've just had to go around them... astonishing that they print the Uniform Vehicle Code on a tube of lipstick these days.
Still number one is the idiots texting at red lights who aren't ready when the light changes, causing you to miss lights.
Quote from: texaskdog on May 14, 2013, 03:25:01 PM
Still number one is the idiots texting at red lights who aren't ready when the light changes, causing you to miss lights.
That's one of the things the horn is for. Sit at the light more than 2 seconds after green, and you deserve that loud noise coming from behind you. Green means "move your flipping ass", folks.
Quote from: djsinco on May 14, 2013, 02:59:12 PM
....
Straying from the topic a bit, when I first started driving in Downtown Denver (in the 1980's,) it was the first time I had seen legal "left turn on red," in the case of two one-way streets intersecting in the correct alignment. It makes perfect sense, but to this day I do not think I have ever seen a sign noting is acceptability.
....
I think the rationale for the lack of a sign on this one is that in most places where left on red is permitted, the rule is that it's allowed unless a sign prohibits it. I can think of only one place where I've seen a sign that said "LEFT TURN ON RED AFTER STOP," and that sign (corner of West and Main in Fairfax City, Virginia) is no longer there because the roads were reconfigured and they're no longer one-way.
Less rare, in my observation (I say "less rare" to denote that it's still uncommon), is a "NO TURN ON RED" sign where left on red would otherwise be permitted. Actually, I made a left on red at just such a spot yesterday (the sign prohibits turns on red when pedestrians are present). Street View here. The intersecting street is one-way to the left here but two-way to the right. (http://goo.gl/maps/BCAzg)
I believe the theory is just like right on red: Unless you see a sign, if the state allows left on red you can presume it's allowed (usually only from a one-way onto another one-way). In places where it's not allowed at all, there won't be any sign, of course.
You know, this raises another common driver mistake I see: Not making lefts on red when it's legal and safe. There aren't all that many intersections around here where it's allowed, but I can think of a fair number of them and I am the
only person I know who ever makes a left on red. Most people simply don't know it's allowed at all, probably because it's not all that common. I am sure we've had this discussion in another thread somewhere, but I recall a friend of mine who, when I mentioned left on red, told me I was nuts, so when I cited her to the applicable Virginia statute and to the DMV manual (on their website), she replied, "Yeah, well, I've never heard of that so I'm going to keep driving the way I always have." OK, look, I recognize nothing
requires anyone to turn on red (be it right or left), but if your reason for not doing it is that you don't know it's allowed, and then you're given proof it's allowed, why continue to pooh-pooh it? :verymad:
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 14, 2013, 03:36:04 PM
I am sure we've had this discussion in another thread somewhere, but I recall a friend of mine who, when I mentioned left on red, told me I was nuts, so when I cited her to the applicable Virginia statute and to the DMV manual (on their website), she replied, "Yeah, well, I've never heard of that so I'm going to keep driving the way I always have." OK, look, I recognize nothing requires anyone to turn on red (be it right or left), but if your reason for not doing it is that you don't know it's allowed, and then you're given proof it's allowed, why continue to pooh-pooh it? :verymad:
Yep. I specifically remember your story:
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 22, 2012, 09:58:41 AM
Quote from: Big John on October 21, 2012, 11:12:58 PM
Quote from: PurdueBill on October 21, 2012, 10:49:23 PM
Holy thread revival! I hope it is OK to revive this one but it didn't seem to make sense to start a new thread for my addition.
Visiting my mother in the hospital the other day, I was among a couple people aboard an elevator that was stopping at every floor for no one, without anyone aboard pushing any buttons for any stop before the 7th floor. I remarked that the same people who program the vast majority of Akron traffic lights to change on a set timer day and night, responding to a call or not, must now be in charge of the elevators. A fellow passenger agreed and then remarked that even worse than that, he's seen people all the time make left turns on red at one of the intersections right near the hospital! The horror! He didn't really believe me when I told him that it turns out to actually be legal (heck, there is a sign at another Akron intersection that even says so) but said that legal or not the police mustn't care because he's seen them "ignore" people making the lefts on red.
I thought it was interesting that the guy just brought that up and is sure that it couldn't be legal to make the left on red. I hope I'm not stuck behind him at one of the classic mistimed Akron lights that is bearable only with such a legal turn....
A bit off topic, but was it on a weekend? Some elevators are set up at religious institutions/hospitals that way so you would not be "working" by pressing buttons on the sabbath.
A "Sabbath Elevator." They're not confined to religious institutions and hospitals. In New York some apartment buildings and co-ops have them. The other residents generally know which elevator to avoid. Some newer buildings have a more clever twist where the residents for whom this is an issue have to request the service and the management will program the elevator to stop on those floors (presumably not all elevators allow this kind of programming, thus making the "stop on all floors" the default option in other buildings). Apparently this sort of thing is not unique to elevators–some ovens have a "Sabbath mode" to allow for keeping pre-cooked food warm (this because many ovens will now turn off automatically after some preset time for safety reasons), and some refrigerators apparently have a "Sabbath" feature that disables the interior light for the Sabbath so that the observant user cannot be said to have "turned on" the light by opening the door.
But to return to the main topic: The comment from the fellow PurdueBill encountered doesn't surprise me at all. Another forum I visit has a thread about things that are annoying you and I commented one day about getting stuck behind someone who simply refused to go left on red at an intersection where it was allowed. Several people responded along the lines of, "WTF is the matter with you? You can't go left on red." So I linked, and quoted, the relevant statute from the Code of Virginia (since I was driving in Virginia). One of them responded with a comment that was something like, "Yeah, well, I've never heard of that so I'm not about to start doing it." I can certainly understand why she wouldn't just take my word for it, but when I presented the statute..... :banghead:
The really scary thing is that I was able to find your story by searching for "sabbath elevator". How I could possibly remember that the story was in the same seven-month-old post as the sabbath elevator thing is beyond me!
how can someone know, for all jurisdictions (50 states, DC, NYC, etc) where things like "left turn on red one-way to one-way", "right turn on red", "U turn", etc are prohibited?
is this realistic to expect someone to know this? seems to me you'd need to be some kind of savant.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 14, 2013, 03:56:34 PM
is this realistic to expect someone to know this?
No. But what's the alternative? Never ticket out-of-staters?
Red lights are considered to be green in Pueblo for at least two seconds after they turn red. Green protected left turn arrows remain in effect for at least ten seconds after they go out as long as there is a continuous flow of left-turning traffic.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 14, 2013, 03:36:04 PM
Less rare, in my observation (I say "less rare" to denote that it's still uncommon), is a "NO TURN ON RED" sign where left on red would otherwise be permitted. Actually, I made a left on red at just such a spot yesterday (the sign prohibits turns on red when pedestrians are present). Street View here. The intersecting street is one-way to the left here but two-way to the right. (http://goo.gl/maps/BCAzg)
That's a strange one to have a signal at, IMHO. In some areas, that would be a porkchop directing traffic right or left without a signal.
QuoteI believe the theory is just like right on red: Unless you see a sign, if the state allows left on red you can presume it's allowed (usually only from a one-way onto another one-way). In places where it's not allowed at all, there won't be any sign, of course.
Of course, in some states, one can turn left on red from a two-way street onto a one-way street (Michigan for example).
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 14, 2013, 03:56:34 PM
how can someone know, for all jurisdictions (50 states, DC, NYC, etc) where things like "left turn on red one-way to one-way", "right turn on red", "U turn", etc are prohibited?
is this realistic to expect someone to know this? seems to me you'd need to be some kind of savant.
See:
Quote from: " Stop? Go? States shape dilemma of yellow light. " The Columbian; April 8, 2012
As differing rules go, at least one Vancouver resident holds first-hand experience. Several years ago, City Attorney Ted Gathe found himself on the wrong end of a red-light camera in Northeast Portland. Vancouver has considered the enforcement cameras in the past, but ultimately decided not to put the technology in place here.
Gathe said the traffic light was yellow when he entered the intersection, but turned red before he got through. The camera flashed. Gathe ended up with a ticket.
Gathe made his case before a municipal judge, he said, arguing he lawfully entered the intersection before the light turned red. The judge listened, and responded with something to the effect of "You're not from around here, are you?" Gathe said.
Ultimately, the ticket was reduced, Gathe said. But he still ended up with a fine of about $250.
...
Quote from: Brandon on May 14, 2013, 04:02:54 PM
Of course, in some states, one can turn left on red from a two-way street onto a one-way street (Michigan for example).
does this apply to freeway on-ramps at diamond interchanges as well? does the off-ramp and corresponding on-ramp count as a one-way street?
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 14, 2013, 12:49:04 PM
Quote from: empirestate on May 14, 2013, 11:08:54 AMQuote from: J N Winkler on May 13, 2013, 05:19:24 PMVery common errors in Wichita (in addition to not signalling lane changes, which I think Kphoger mentioned above):
* Using a TWLTL to stage left turns out of driveways
Not an error in New York; rather, it's the legal and proper way to use such a lane, as discussed lengthily in another recent thread. In fact, I'd count not-knowing-that-this-is-how-those-lanes-are-to-be-used as a common driver mistake itself.
Legal, yes; proper, no. Because of the line-of-sight issues described upthread, it is a very unsafe maneuver and is to be avoided whenever possible. It really should not be legal in the first place, and banning it would give highway agencies an incentive to implement proper access management.
Can't be both yes and no, by my intended meaning. I used "proper" as connoted by being legal and officially sanctioned, so if legal=yes, then proper=yes. Now, whether it's proper in terms of being safe or a good idea, I'll leave that discussion to another thread.
Quote from: djsinco on May 14, 2013, 02:59:12 PM
Straying from the topic a bit, when I first started driving in Downtown Denver (in the 1980's,) it was the first time I had seen legal "left turn on red," in the case of two one-way streets intersecting in the correct alignment. It makes perfect sense, but to this day I do not think I have ever seen a sign noting is acceptability.
You'll find them occasionally in NYC, where turns on red (in either direction) must be explicitly permitted.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 14, 2013, 03:56:34 PM
how can someone know, for all jurisdictions (50 states, DC, NYC, etc) where things like "left turn on red one-way to one-way", "right turn on red", "U turn", etc are prohibited?
is this realistic to expect someone to know this? seems to me you'd need to be some kind of savant.
Easy; there's an app for that: http://www.technomadia.com/apps/State_Lines.html (http://www.technomadia.com/apps/State_Lines.html)
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 14, 2013, 04:08:12 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 14, 2013, 04:02:54 PM
Of course, in some states, one can turn left on red from a two-way street onto a one-way street (Michigan for example).
does this apply to freeway on-ramps at diamond interchanges as well? does the off-ramp and corresponding on-ramp count as a one-way street?
Yes, it does. It makes driving much easier, IMHO. Why should I have to wait to turn onto a one-way street if the way is clear? It's not like traffic coming at me can do much else other than stop at the red light.
One of the biggest errors I see (and is increasingly a pet peeve of mine) is drivers who, when backing out of their driveway to proceed in the lane adjacent to their property, turn so wide that they encroach on both sides of the street.
Of course, one could argue that drivers should actually back into their driveway, which would then allow them to directly pull out into the street. I adopted this practice years ago, and I find it's much easier and quicker (fewer blind spots for one thing) than backing out of the driveway into traffic.
Quote from: Brandon on May 14, 2013, 03:33:14 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on May 14, 2013, 03:25:01 PM
Still number one is the idiots texting at red lights who aren't ready when the light changes, causing you to miss lights.
That's one of the things the horn is for. Sit at the light more than 2 seconds after green, and you deserve that loud noise coming from behind you. Green means "move your flipping ass", folks.
This. :happy:
Quote from: roadman on May 14, 2013, 04:36:19 PM
One of the biggest errors I see (and is increasingly a pet peeve of mine) is drivers who, when backing out of their driveway to proceed in the lane adjacent to their property, turn so wide that they encroach on both sides of the street
Of course, one could argue that drivers should actually back into their driveway, which would then allow them to directly pull out into the street. I adopted this practice years ago, and I find it's much easier and quicker (fewer bilnd spots for one thing) than backing out of the driveway into traffic.
Back-in parking done by people who are uncomfortable doing it ranks high on my list of pet peeves, especially at places like the shopping mall. Don't get me wrong, I understand the benefits of it, especially if you drive a small car or a car with large blind spots (my RX-7 qualifies as both!) and you're concerned about getting stuck between large vehicles like SUVs. Pulling straight through to face out is better, IMO, but of course you can't always do that. Anyway, I used to hate it when I worked downtown and the back-in crowd always took FOREVER to park, backing up at the wrong angle, pulling out, backing in again, pulling out, afraid of the wall, etc.....
For us at our house it's irrelevant, not enough traffic on our street to be an issue. I do back the convertible into the garage when I park it there because it's easier to jumpstart it if it's parked backwards. Otherwise, I always pull into the garage the normal way. We have a one-car garage with enough junk on either side (snowblower, trash can, recycle bins, golf bags, folded bicycle, etc.) and it's a tight enough squeeze in my Acura that parking backwards is more of a hassle than anything else. The convertible is far smaller car.
@1995hoo
Excellent points, and I agree about back-in parkers who obviously shouldn't be doing it. However, at my local commuter rail lot, I usually see similar behaviors from people who pull directly into their spaces. Either that, or they blindly pull in off-center, crooked, and/or straddling the adjacent space, and they don't bother to correct it.
Quote from: empirestate on May 14, 2013, 04:11:02 PM[Legality, propriety, or otherwise of using a TWLTL to stage left turns]
Can't be both yes and no, by my intended meaning. I used "proper" as connoted by being legal and officially sanctioned, so if legal=yes, then proper=yes. Now, whether it's proper in terms of being safe or a good idea, I'll leave that discussion to another thread.
If discussion of this particular issue should be shifted to another thread, then it would be helpful to provide a link to that thread. I have run searches on {two-way left-turn lane} and {TWLTL} and this thread is the first I have found in which this particular issue has surfaced. The last discussion (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=7083.225) I remember which dealt with staging left turns actually pertained to a length of US 50 in northern Virginia where the median (no TWLTL is present) is narrow enough that double-stacking in the crossover is not allowed.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 14, 2013, 04:08:12 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 14, 2013, 04:02:54 PM
Of course, in some states, one can turn left on red from a two-way street onto a one-way street (Michigan for example).
does this apply to freeway on-ramps at diamond interchanges as well? does the off-ramp and corresponding on-ramp count as a one-way street?
In Washington, it's specified that yes it does. I don't know about the rest of the handful of states that allow such a turn though.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 14, 2013, 05:03:42 PM
If discussion of this particular issue should be shifted to another thread, then it would be helpful to provide a link to that thread. I have run searches on {two-way left-turn lane} and {TWLTL} and this thread is the first I have found in which this particular issue has surfaced. The last discussion (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=7083.225) I remember which dealt with staging left turns actually pertained to a length of US 50 in northern Virginia where the median (no TWLTL is present) is narrow enough that double-stacking in the crossover is not allowed.
It's here: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=8252.msg191782#msg191782 and ff. The search term you wanted was "center turn lane", as it turns out.
Sticking your middle finger up is not a proper hand signal.
Quote from: roadman on May 14, 2013, 04:36:19 PM
One of the biggest errors I see (and is increasingly a pet peeve of mine) is drivers who, when backing out of their driveway to proceed in the lane adjacent to their property, turn so wide that they encroach on both sides of the street.
Of course, one could argue that drivers should actually back into their driveway, which would then allow them to directly pull out into the street. I adopted this practice years ago, and I find it's much easier and quicker (fewer blind spots for one thing) than backing out of the driveway into traffic.
After having driven a forklift for years, and then driving a delivery truck for a year or two after that, driving in reverse is almost as easy for me as driving forwards. I always back into our driveway, and usually back into parking spaces. Sometimes, I even find it easier to back in: since the steering wheels are in the front, I find it quite easy to position the corner of my rear bumper where I want it and swing the rest of the car around it. Almost but not quite like tying string to two pencils, poking one of them into a notebook, and swinging the other one around in a circle–the poked one being analogous to the rear of the car, and the free-swinging one to the front of the car. I haven't really seen people who aren't good at it attempt it, though: it seems like they usually avoid reverse gear as much as possible. Like roadman, I see just as many people–probably more–fail at nosing in. Sometimes on more than one attempt.
Back on the topic of stopping for emergency vehicles on divided roadways.... Just the other day, I personally got to witness why it can be a good idea to still stop on the other side of the median. I was stopped at a red light, in the left lane of a 4-lane divided avenue. An ambulance started approaching from behind me. I had to decide: (a) Start driving when my light turned green, and pull over to the far right, or (b) stay put, even though I wasn't over to the far right. I made the decision that staying put was better. It ended up not mattering because, meanwhile, the ambulance decided it would be better to just cut over to the left of the median at an intersection, and bypass our side altogether. Oncoming vehicles weren't expecting to have to stop, since there was a raised median, and there was nearly a head-on collision.
Quote from: KEK Inc. on May 14, 2013, 08:43:11 PM
Sticking your middle finger up is not a proper hand signal.
I rather prefer that to the current fad in the DC area of shining your high beams at people when you don't like their driving. (Although since my rearview mirror is auto-dimming, I shrug that off most of the time too.)
Quote from: KEK Inc. on May 14, 2013, 08:43:11 PM
Sticking your middle finger up is not a proper hand signal.
I am hoping that is the exception over the norm in your area. I would hate to drive someplace or somewhere and have the "finger" raised everyplace I go.
Not saying that it never happens here, of course only once in a while you will get that one person who does not like you honking your horn at them when they drift off at a green signal, or that one raged individual who does not like your driving that I have experienced in my daily travels.
Quote from: KEK Inc. on May 14, 2013, 08:43:11 PM
Sticking your middle finger up is not a proper hand signal.
Obviously it is considered one in Chicago and New York. First we use the horn, then we give the bird. Sometimes when we use the horn, we get the bird in return.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 14, 2013, 03:36:04 PM
OK, look, I recognize nothing requires anyone to turn on red (be it right or left)...
Actually, the way NJ's law is written, it does require one to turn right on red. This issue came up several years ago when someone received a ticket for failing to turn right on red. It became a whole story in the newspaper about it. The ticket eventually was upheld in court as well!
As far as I'm concerned, why wouldn't someone want to turn right on red? Why would they just want to sit there (assuming there's no traffic and they can clearly see they can turn safely)? Do these people sit at Stop signs waiting for them to become Go signs?
39:4-115 Making right or left turn.
The driver of a vehicle or the motorman of a streetcar: a. intending to turn to the right or left at an intersection where traffic is controlled by traffic control signals or by a traffic or police officer, shall proceed to make either turn with proper care to avoid accidents and, except as provided in b. below, only upon the "go" signal unless otherwise directed by a traffic or police officer, an official sign or special signal; or
b. intending to turn right at an intersection where traffic is controlled by a traffic control signal shall, unless an official sign of the State, municipality, or county authority having jurisdiction over the intersection prohibits the same, proceed to make the turn upon a "stop" or "caution" signal with proper care to avoid accidents after coming to a full stop, observing traffic in all directions, yielding to other vehicular traffic traveling in a direction in which the turn will be made, and stopping and remaining stopped for pedestrians crossing the roadway within a marked crosswalk, or at an unmarked crosswalk, into which the driver is turning. Both the approach for and the turn shall be made as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, unless such intersection is otherwise posted.
amended 1976, c.46; 2009, c.319, s.3.
In my town, people don't refer to the right-most pole-mounted signal for instructions when in a right turn lane.
I cannot tell you how many times I'm coming down a right turn lane and clearly seeing a GREEN right turn arrow on the side-mounted signal, yet McFly is watching the right-most overhead 3-segment signal which is red -- oblivious to the fact that I'm laying on my horn behind them for a reason.
Honorable mention are those in a left turn lane that will not move into an intersection when green, so at least a car or two can complete a left turn when the light changes from yellow to red. Especially worse when the left turn lane has no protected left arrow phase!!!
Quote from: empirestate on May 14, 2013, 08:27:48 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on May 14, 2013, 05:03:42 PMIf discussion of this particular issue should be shifted to another thread, then it would be helpful to provide a link to that thread. I have run searches on {two-way left-turn lane} and {TWLTL} and this thread is the first I have found in which this particular issue has surfaced. The last discussion (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=7083.225) I remember which dealt with staging left turns actually pertained to a length of US 50 in northern Virginia where the median (no TWLTL is present) is narrow enough that double-stacking in the crossover is not allowed.
It's here: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=8252.msg191782#msg191782 and ff. The search term you wanted was "center turn lane", as it turns out.
Thanks for this--I have now had a look at the thread. It turns out "TWLTL" appears in it too, but only comparatively late in the discussion, which made it hard to see that it was about using TWLTLs to stage left turns out of driveways. Various posters make good arguments on both sides of the issue (based on law, precedent, original purpose of TWLTLs being to facilitate left turns both in and out of driveways, driver expectancy, visibility, etc.). My overall impression is that while using TWLTLs to stage left turns is
de jure legal in many places, legality is not universal and drivers in general no longer expect to see TWLTLs used in this way. In the Swiss-cheese theory of accident causation, both of these factors are "holes" that, when lined up by a given set of circumstances, allow accidents to happen. I still think it is a much better solution (certainly safer, and probably also more economic) to implement access management on high-volume roadways--in many cases skipping upgrade to five-lane C&G (with TWLTL) altogether.
Quote from: thenetwork on May 15, 2013, 09:15:56 AM
....
Honorable mention are those in a left turn lane that will not move into an intersection when green, so at least a car or two can complete a left turn when the light changes from yellow to red. Especially worse when the left turn lane has no protected left arrow phase!!!
The flip side of that, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, is people driving large vehicles who pull out close to halfway such that it's damn near impossible to see if you're making a left coming from the other direction. In that situation, say if a guy driving a Lincoln Navigator has pulled out from the other side, I'll always wait behind the line because I can see a lot better from there than I can up closer to a large SUV.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 15, 2013, 08:59:28 AM
As far as I'm concerned, why wouldn't someone want to turn right on red?
timid, passionless, sleepy, tepid, emotionally deadened drivers.
as I say... if you don't want to go,
stay home!
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 15, 2013, 08:59:28 AM
....
As far as I'm concerned, why wouldn't someone want to turn right on red? Why would they just want to sit there (assuming there's no traffic and they can clearly see they can turn safely)? Do these people sit at Stop signs waiting for them to become Go signs?
....
As a general matter I agree with that, but on the other hand, in most jurisdictions it's not required that you do it. Even in New Jersey, I assume the statute you cited would not be construed to require someone to turn on red if he doesn't feel it's safe for whatever reason. (I can think of times when I wasn't satisfied it was clear and so didn't turn, and then it turned out I could have gone. Several of those were in Mexico in areas with high volumes of scooter traffic.) Nobody except the guy at the front of the line gets to decide whether it's safe to turn.
With all that said, I've known quite a few Europeans who were extremely reluctant to go right on red when visiting the United States or Canada because said movement (or the UK equivalent left on red) is not legal in their home countries and so they're not used to doing it. I guess I can understand that.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 15, 2013, 01:01:54 PMI can think of times when I wasn't satisfied it was clear and so didn't turn, and then it turned out I could have gone. Several of those were in Mexico in areas with high volumes of scooter traffic.
RTOR is not legal in Mexico and the cops do pull people over for it--I was caught in this way years ago by a
tránsito in Chihuahua City (fortunately he decided I was an ignorant
gringo tourist and let me go).
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2013, 01:14:42 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 15, 2013, 01:01:54 PMI can think of times when I wasn't satisfied it was clear and so didn't turn, and then it turned out I could have gone. Several of those were in Mexico in areas with high volumes of scooter traffic.
RTOR is not legal in Mexico and the cops do pull people over for it--I was caught in this way years ago by a tránsito in Chihuahua City (fortunately he decided I was an ignorant gringo tourist and let me go).
Normally, yes, but in some places there are signs allowing it (I've encountered several on Cozumel, for example). I didn't always do it when the sign allowed it for the reason I stated previously.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 15, 2013, 01:01:54 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 15, 2013, 08:59:28 AM
....
As far as I'm concerned, why wouldn't someone want to turn right on red? Why would they just want to sit there (assuming there's no traffic and they can clearly see they can turn safely)? Do these people sit at Stop signs waiting for them to become Go signs?
....
As a general matter I agree with that, but on the other hand, in most jurisdictions it's not required that you do it. Even in New Jersey, I assume the statute you cited would not be construed to require someone to turn on red if he doesn't feel it's safe for whatever reason. (I can think of times when I wasn't satisfied it was clear and so didn't turn, and then it turned out I could have gone. Several of those were in Mexico in areas with high volumes of scooter traffic.) Nobody except the guy at the front of the line gets to decide whether it's safe to turn.
With all that said, I've known quite a few Europeans who were extremely reluctant to go right on red when visiting the United States or Canada because said movement (or the UK equivalent left on red) is not legal in their home countries and so they're not used to doing it. I guess I can understand that.
If there's an apparent reason, sure. But if the driver is staring right at the traffic light, or down at the phone, and clearly isn't looking right or left for traffic and/or pedestrians, then the driver is just being clueless.
Another issue is the red light cameras. You'll see motorists that won't turn, ever, because they were caught at an intersection with a camera. In those cases though, the driver probably blew thru the light without stopping. It didn't have to do with turning right on red, it had to do with not stopping first.
Quote from: thenetwork on May 15, 2013, 09:15:56 AM
Honorable mention are those in a left turn lane that will not move into an intersection when green, so at least a car or two can complete a left turn when the light changes from yellow to red. Especially worse when the left turn lane has no protected left arrow phase!!!
That's not standard practice here in Florida, at least not where I live, and it's extremely dangerous here. I've personally witnessed and been first on the scene four different times the past few years where a left turning car did this only to get t-boned by an oncoming car racing the yellow light. And due to people running the red light, by the time oncoming traffic actually stops and you are able to turn left and clear the intersection, cross traffic already has a green. It's only the visitors and newcomers from saner states who do it here, and I learned very quickly to wait at the line when I moved here.
Quote from: realjd on May 15, 2013, 03:14:21 PM
And due to people running the red light, by the time oncoming traffic actually stops and you are able to turn left and clear the intersection, cross traffic already has a green.
So you wait until then if you have to. Cross traffic would have to be utterly blind to hit you when you're out in the middle like that.
How much time you got buddy? Driving in the left lane, driving 10 under the speed limit, driving 10 under the speed limit in the left lane, pulling out in front of cars and not speeding up, pulling out in front of cars and straddling the dotted line, stopping at a red light and not turning right until the light turns green, riding your ass, cutting in front of you when you were following the car in front of you at a safe distance....etc.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 15, 2013, 12:36:25 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 15, 2013, 08:59:28 AM
As far as I'm concerned, why wouldn't someone want to turn right on red?
timid, passionless, sleepy, tepid, emotionally deadened drivers.
as I say... if you don't want to go, stay home!
dang you, they have text messages to send!!!
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on May 14, 2013, 04:02:20 PM
Red lights are considered to be green in Pueblo for at least two seconds after they turn red. Green protected left turn arrows remain in effect for at least ten seconds after they go out as long as there is a continuous flow of left-turning traffic.
In Alaska you are expected to enter an intersection on yellow. If you dont, the car behind you will likely run you over.
Quote from: bugo on May 15, 2013, 03:59:26 PM
...cutting in front of you when you were following the car in front of you at a safe distance....etc.
I'm reminded of this "Shell Answer Book" from the 1970s. Remember those yellow books they gave out at Shell stations? Or in some cases, appeared as magazine inserts (called Shell Answer "Series" instead of "Book", for some obscure legal reason). This book was mostly about defensive driving.
Q. How should you react when people cut in front of you?A. You're following at a safe distance and someone cuts in front of you. You back off to a safe distance and someone does it again. What next?
Believe it or not, the answer is to back off again. If you get frustrated, and start following too closely, you're only increasing your chances of a possible rear-end collision. Keep a level head. Never let emotion get the best of you.
(From Shell Answer Book #14, "The Driving Skills Book". These and others are readable here: http://www.scribd.com/collections/3417946/Shell-Answer-Books (http://www.scribd.com/collections/3417946/Shell-Answer-Books) Worth a look if only for the vintage cars and Shell petroliana pictured.)
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2013, 01:14:42 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 15, 2013, 01:01:54 PMI can think of times when I wasn't satisfied it was clear and so didn't turn, and then it turned out I could have gone. Several of those were in Mexico in areas with high volumes of scooter traffic.
RTOR is not legal in Mexico and the cops do pull people over for it--I was caught in this way years ago by a tránsito in Chihuahua City (fortunately he decided I was an ignorant gringo tourist and let me go).
As mentioned farther upthread, RTOR is permitted in some jurisdictions. It is a matter of state and local law, just as in the USA. For reference, here is the applicable law for the state of Jalisco:
Quote
REGLAMENTO DE LA LEY DE LOS SERVICIOS DE VIALIDAD, TRANSITO Y TRANSPORTE DEL ESTADO DE JALISCO
CAPITULO III
ArtÃculo 32
III.
g) La vuelta a la derecha, aún con semáforo en alto, es permitida con precaución, previo alto total y
otorgando preferencia al peatón.
Asà mismo es permitida la vuelta a la izquierda, aún con semáforo en alto, proviniendo e ingresando
a calles de un solo sentido de circulación, con las mismas restricciones y precauciones que la
vuelta a la derecha cuando no exista señalamiento expreso que lo prohiba.
Estas disposiciones no son aplicables a los vehÃculos del servicio público colectivo de transporte de
pasajeros.
[link: http://programas.jalisco.gob.mx/leyes/pdfLeyes/Reglamento_Ley_Servicios_Vialidad_Transito_Jalisco.pdf (http://programas.jalisco.gob.mx/leyes/pdfLeyes/Reglamento_Ley_Servicios_Vialidad_Transito_Jalisco.pdf)]
You'll notice it not only permits right on red, but also left on red from a one-way to a one-way.
it also seems to indicate that colectivos (small buses, effectively) are not allowed to turn right on red. is this a law anywhere in the US as well?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 15, 2013, 06:03:35 PM
it also seems to indicate that colectivos (small buses, effectively) are not allowed to turn right on red. is this a law anywhere in the US as well?
Not sure about transit buses. I know school buses aren't allowed to turn right on red.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2013, 10:38:53 AM
My overall impression is that while using TWLTLs to stage left turns is de jure legal in many places, legality is not universal and drivers in general no longer expect to see TWLTLs used in this way. In the Swiss-cheese theory of accident causation, both of these factors are "holes" that, when lined up by a given set of circumstances, allow accidents to happen. I still think it is a much better solution (certainly safer, and probably also more economic) to implement access management on high-volume roadways--in many cases skipping upgrade to five-lane C&G (with TWLTL) altogether.
Naturally, if not having a TWLTL if the best solution, great, but by definition, that isn't what we're discussing here. :-)
As for the safety of staging a left turn, I recognize the potential conflict with traffic entering the lane from the main road; however, in a situation where I'd consider staging my turn because I don't anticipate a break in all lanes of cross traffic within a reasonable period, it seems to follow by simple happenstance that the potential conflict is much greater with that through cross traffic than with the left-turning traffic. Consequently, I find it more manageable to deal with only half of that cross traffic at a time. So, I first negotiate the oncoming traffic from my left, plus that entering the TWLTL from my left. Second, I negotiate the oncoming traffic from my right, plus that entering the TWLTL from my right. To do the turn all in one shot, I'd have to simultaneously negotiate the oncoming traffic from my left, the TWLTL traffic on my left, the TWLTL traffic on my right, and the oncoming traffic from my right.
Quote from: lepidopteran on May 15, 2013, 04:44:32 PM
Quote from: bugo on May 15, 2013, 03:59:26 PM
...cutting in front of you when you were following the car in front of you at a safe distance....etc.
I'm reminded of this "Shell Answer Book" from the 1970s. Remember those yellow books they gave out at Shell stations? Or in some cases, appeared as magazine inserts (called Shell Answer "Series" instead of "Book", for some obscure legal reason). This book was mostly about defensive driving.
Q. How should you react when people cut in front of you?
A. You're following at a safe distance and someone cuts in front of you. You back off to a safe distance and someone does it again. What next?
Believe it or not, the answer is to back off again. If you get frustrated, and start following too closely, you're only increasing your chances of a possible rear-end collision. Keep a level head. Never let emotion get the best of you.
(From Shell Answer Book #14, "The Driving Skills Book". These and others are readable here: http://www.scribd.com/collections/3417946/Shell-Answer-Books (http://www.scribd.com/collections/3417946/Shell-Answer-Books) Worth a look if only for the vintage cars and Shell petroliana pictured.)
Thanks for the link. I am not sure why, but I am fascinated by stuff from that era.
TWLTL, TWLTL, TWLTL. I just like saying it over and over. It sounds vaguely naughty. Don't show people your TWLTL.
Quote from: empirestate on May 15, 2013, 09:36:14 PMAs for the safety of staging a left turn, I recognize the potential conflict with traffic entering the lane from the main road; however, in a situation where I'd consider staging my turn because I don't anticipate a break in all lanes of cross traffic within a reasonable period, it seems to follow by simple happenstance that the potential conflict is much greater with that through cross traffic than with the left-turning traffic.
Certainly one would expect to see much greater volumes of cross traffic going straight through (past the driveway) and not maneuvering into the TWLTL to begin a left turn; however, it takes just one car entering the TWLTL in preparation for a turn, without signalling, to collide with a car moving into the TWLTL to stage a left turn. One would expect this scenario to be more likely opposite driveways which serve popular businesses or other heavy traffic generators, or in situations where driveway consolidation has occurred without some form of turn protection (such as signalization) being put in.
QuoteConsequently, I find it more manageable to deal with only half of that cross traffic at a time. So, I first negotiate the oncoming traffic from my left, plus that entering the TWLTL from my left. Second, I negotiate the oncoming traffic from my right, plus that entering the TWLTL from my right. To do the turn all in one shot, I'd have to simultaneously negotiate the oncoming traffic from my left, the TWLTL traffic on my left, the TWLTL traffic on my right, and the oncoming traffic from my right.
The real problem with the single-stage scenario is that it requires a wide gap in traffic, which on a busy road may not occur for several minutes (especially if you execute it in properly cautious fashion and wait for all of the lanes in your desired direction to be clear, not just the lane you intend to turn into). On the other hand, using the TWLTL to stage the left turn is open to some of the same objections as a turn that puts you side by side with another moving vehicle (e.g. you turn right to right, and another vehicle coming from the other direction turns left to left so that it is next to you)--it requires you to make assumptions about other drivers' intended lane position and direction which, if not borne out in reality, result in a conflict and possibly a collision.
I would suggest a less risky way of using a TWLTL to stage a left turn is simply to turn right out of the driveway, into one of the through lanes (not the TWLTL), move left, enter the TWLTL at a point which is not part of the approach to a driveway in either direction, and U-turn. This essentially uses the TWLTL as an informal Michigan left.
^^ If traffic's that bad, then just turn right and go around the block.
I know in my lifetime I will be cited for road rage. Most likely for someone not using a turn signal. We have people from all over in Austin, too many idiots who brought their bad habits with them.
Quote from: Brandon on May 15, 2013, 11:16:39 PM
^^ If traffic's that bad, then just turn right and go around the block.
Depending on where you are, "going around the block" may not always be a reasonable option. I can think of a TWLTL near my house where if you come out of the McDonald's and make a right, "going around the block" would more realistically require going down a street and then cutting a mid-block U-turn to come back to the street that has the TWLTL, simply because the suburban street pattern doesn't allow for just looping around with a few turns. You'd still wind up having to make a left turn without a light anyway. (Making a right turn and then a U at the next light on the street with the TWLTL isn't an option for most drivers because a sign prohibits it, and most people are understandably reluctant to make a left into the high school parking to turn around there.)
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2013, 10:51:53 PM
Twltl text
As we can see, this action is legal in many places (if not all), and is common driver behavior. For these two reasons, even if we were to agree that it's dangerous, I would still not consider it a "
mistake".
Similarly:
flipping someone off is not a mistake, it's offensive;
accelerating too slowly or burning rubber is not a mistake, it's mildly annoying;
letting people in front of you when the light turns green is not a mistake, it's slightly inconvenient;
merging at a lower speed than you is not a mistake, it's a difference of opinion.
We have a "Signage pet peeves" thread, an "MUTCD gripes" thread, and a "Roadgeek Rants and Raves" thread. Maybe we need a "Driver pet peeves" thread?
Quote from: kphoger on May 16, 2013, 10:07:56 AMAs we can see, this action is legal in many places (if not all), and is common driver behavior. For these two reasons, even if we were to agree that it's dangerous, I would still not consider it a "mistake".
I would still consider it a mistake unless it were carried out under unusually favorable circumstances. The reason for this is that, although it has been established that using a TWLTL to stage left turns is
de jure legal in many places, drivers have a separate legal duty to carry out their maneuvers in a safe, cautious manner. Most of the time it is not possible to use a TWLTL to stage left turns and still meet this standard, and the person who is turning out of a driveway will be found at fault in any accident since he or she is legally obliged to yield to traffic in the road.
QuoteSimilarly:
flipping someone off is not a mistake, it's offensive;
accelerating too slowly or burning rubber is not a mistake, it's mildly annoying;
letting people in front of you when the light turns green is not a mistake, it's slightly inconvenient;
merging at a lower speed than you is not a mistake, it's a difference of opinion.
These are all excursions from (various flavors of) recommended good practice which, I would agree, are not driving mistakes as such since they don't directly jeopardize safety.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2013, 10:51:53 PM
Certainly one would expect to see much greater volumes of cross traffic going straight through (past the driveway) and not maneuvering into the TWLTL to begin a left turn; however, it takes just one car entering the TWLTL in preparation for a turn, without signalling, to collide with a car moving into the TWLTL to stage a left turn. One would expect this scenario to be more likely opposite driveways which serve popular businesses or other heavy traffic generators, or in situations where driveway consolidation has occurred without some form of turn protection (such as signalization) being put in.
It does take just one, you're right, but then again it takes just one car to cause a potential accident in any number of scenarios. I guess I just haven't found the center turn lane to be any more hazardous than so many other aspects of urban and suburban driving. And as I say, I find that hazard somewhat mitigated by staging my turn, because my attention to the "just one car" is accompanied by my attention to only one direction of cross traffic, rather than both at once.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2013, 10:51:53 PM
The real problem with the single-stage scenario is that it requires a wide gap in traffic, which on a busy road may not occur for several minutes (especially if you execute it in properly cautious fashion and wait for all of the lanes in your desired direction to be clear, not just the lane you intend to turn into). On the other hand, using the TWLTL to stage the left turn is open to some of the same objections as a turn that puts you side by side with another moving vehicle (e.g. you turn right to right, and another vehicle coming from the other direction turns left to left so that it is next to you)--it requires you to make assumptions about other drivers' intended lane position and direction which, if not borne out in reality, result in a conflict and possibly a collision.
I don't disagree with any of that, but it doesn't seem to appear as high on my list of relative riskiness as it does on yours, is all.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2013, 10:51:53 PM
I would suggest a less risky way of using a TWLTL to stage a left turn is simply to turn right out of the driveway, into one of the through lanes (not the TWLTL), move left, enter the TWLTL at a point which is not part of the approach to a driveway in either direction, and U-turn. This essentially uses the TWLTL as an informal Michigan left.
Besides those instances where that's impossible or impractical, as others have and will describe, I would simply add that in my opinion that's a more risky method, rather than less. I can't imagine such a tactic being fruitful in places like New Jersey and Long Island, where I'm likely to find this type of lane often.
Agreed. I have, in general, found staging a left turn in the TWLTL less dangerous than completing the entire left turn in one swoop. And, as I've mentioned before, it's virtually impossible to navigate Branson (my wife's home town) without doing so. TWLTLs there are a way of life.
Quote from: Brandon on May 15, 2013, 11:16:39 PM
^^ If traffic's that bad, then just turn right and go around the block.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three rights make a left.
Quote from: theline on May 16, 2013, 03:52:49 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 15, 2013, 11:16:39 PM
^^ If traffic's that bad, then just turn right and go around the block.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three rights make a left.
True, but then you're no longer on the street you want.
Good catch. I was just applying the cliche, but it didn't quite work in this case. :nod:
Drivers who block intersections and side roads even when there is a sign reminding them "State Law: Do Not Block Side Road"
Merging at a slow speed is indeed a driver mistake. Safe practice is to accelerate toward freeway speed while approaching and within the merge area, not after moving into the freeway lane.
Presumably Michigan doesn't have the turn into closest lane rule. Because that would really fuck with Michigan lefts.
Quote from: NE2 on May 17, 2013, 02:46:09 AM
Presumably Michigan doesn't have the turn into closest lane rule. Because that would really fuck with Michigan lefts.
Why the hell would you turn into the closet lane anyway? You turn into the lane you need.
Quote from: Brandon on May 17, 2013, 06:38:08 AM
Quote from: NE2 on May 17, 2013, 02:46:09 AM
Presumably Michigan doesn't have the turn into closest lane rule. Because that would really fuck with Michigan lefts.
Why the hell would you turn into the closet lane anyway? You turn into the lane you need.
Because if two lanes were turning left, the person on the left would conflict with the person on the right.
And...
If you are turning left onto a 2 lane roadway, the person across the intersection can legally turn right.
I can always count on Davenport drivers not to turn into the closest lane. Myself included.
Quote from: Brandon on May 17, 2013, 06:38:08 AM
Quote from: NE2 on May 17, 2013, 02:46:09 AM
Presumably Michigan doesn't have the turn into closest lane rule. Because that would really fuck with Michigan lefts.
Why the hell would you turn into the closet lane anyway? You turn into the lane you need.
I was sitting at a red light this morning watching traffic on the other road turning right while I waited for a green. There were two right-turn lanes (one mandatory, one optional). One of the drivers in the mandatory lane apparently thinks like you do, as he turned and immediately tried to bomb across into the left lane (there are three lanes after you turn there). In so doing he nearly smashed into the car that was turning right from the option lane.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 17, 2013, 08:39:35 AM
Quote from: Brandon on May 17, 2013, 06:38:08 AM
Quote from: NE2 on May 17, 2013, 02:46:09 AM
Presumably Michigan doesn't have the turn into closest lane rule. Because that would really fuck with Michigan lefts.
Why the hell would you turn into the closet lane anyway? You turn into the lane you need.
Because if two lanes were turning left, the person on the left would conflict with the person on the right.
And...
If you are turning left onto a 2 lane roadway, the person across the intersection can legally turn right.
1. That's a given if you are turning with 2+ turn lanes.
2. No, that's not a given. If you have the protected arrow, you have right-of-way over the person turning right. The person turning right is supposed to stop and wait. Ditto for a left turn during the permitted phase. The person turning right has right-of-way and you are supposed to stop and wait for him to finish.
Quote from: Brandon on May 17, 2013, 06:38:08 AM
Quote from: NE2 on May 17, 2013, 02:46:09 AM
Presumably Michigan doesn't have the turn into closest lane rule. Because that would really fuck with Michigan lefts.
Why the hell would you turn into the closet lane anyway? You turn into the lane you need.
Because in some states, that's the law.
Quote from: Brandon on May 17, 2013, 06:38:08 AM
Quote from: NE2 on May 17, 2013, 02:46:09 AM
Presumably Michigan doesn't have the turn into closest lane rule. Because that would really fuck with Michigan lefts.
Why the hell would you turn into the closet lane anyway? You turn into the lane you need.
Why wouldn't you? It's the polite thing to do and you substantially reduce the risk of accident, not necessarily from a car turning right on red at the intersection, but from a car turning right out of a driveway just downstream from you.
It's just good manners, and should be the law where it's not.
Quote from: corco on May 17, 2013, 09:43:23 AM
Quote from: Brandon on May 17, 2013, 06:38:08 AM
Quote from: NE2 on May 17, 2013, 02:46:09 AM
Presumably Michigan doesn't have the turn into closest lane rule. Because that would really fuck with Michigan lefts.
Why the hell would you turn into the closet lane anyway? You turn into the lane you need.
Why wouldn't you? It's the polite thing to do and you substantially reduce the risk of accident, not necessarily from a car turning right on red at the intersection, but from a car turning right out of a driveway just downstream from you.
It's just good manners, and should be the law where it's not.
I'll respectfully disagree. If you do not have the right-of-way to turn, you wait for the other person to complete his turn. Again, if you do not have a protected left, you wait for the person turning right. If you have the protected left, the person turning right must stop and wait. It's as simple as that and does not need a silly law restricting movement.
Quote from: Brandon on May 17, 2013, 06:38:08 AM
Quote from: NE2 on May 17, 2013, 02:46:09 AM
Presumably Michigan doesn't have the turn into closest lane rule. Because that would really fuck with Michigan lefts.
Why the hell would you turn into the closet lane anyway? You turn into the lane you need.
In my state the lane you need is, by law, the closest one. Sometimes you also need, for other reasons, a lane not closest to you, and that's when you work things out using your driving acuity.
Hey, when I was a kid I got yelled at all the time by my peers for not coloring within the lines. Now that I'm all grown up and have the necessary skills to stay within prescribed lines, and so I do unless I need not to. For all the emphasis placed by five-year-olds on staying within lines, I'm awfully surprised how little of that care remains into adulthood!
QuoteI'll respectfully disagree. If you do not have the right-of-way to turn, you wait for the other person to complete his turn. Again, if you do not have a protected left, you wait for the person turning right. If you have the protected left, the person turning right must stop and wait. It's as simple as that and does not need a silly law restricting movement.
But if you have that law in place and enforce it, then right turning traffic has the right of way to the outside lane and left turning traffic has right of way to the inside lane, allowing for a lot more throughput.
A four lane road may not be the best way to look at it, because sometimes those are too tight for two vehicles to be turning at the same time. But what about a six lane road? Is it really necessary to deny a right turner the ability to make any movement just to accommodate a left turner that just has to get to the right lane as quickly as possible?
It's a different way of framing right of way. I'm pretty sure that in most situations where a left turner turns into the outside lane and hits somebody turning right into the outside lane, it would be a no-fault accident or the fault of the person turning left, not the fault of the person turning right in states where this is the law.
Quote from: corco on May 17, 2013, 03:14:30 PM
QuoteI'll respectfully disagree. If you do not have the right-of-way to turn, you wait for the other person to complete his turn. Again, if you do not have a protected left, you wait for the person turning right. If you have the protected left, the person turning right must stop and wait. It's as simple as that and does not need a silly law restricting movement.
A four lane road may not be the best way to look at it, because sometimes those are too tight for two vehicles to be turning at the same time. But what about a six lane road? Is it really necessary to deny a right turner the ability to make any movement just to accommodate a left turner that just has to get to the right lane as quickly as possible?
Yes. If the person turning right has a red signal, and the person turning left has a protected signal, the person turning right should wait until it is clear before proceeding.
It's interesting how driving etiquette varies from state to state. Around here, the Midwest, it is considered uncouth to turn right on red if the left turn has a protected signal. Most cops will consider an accident to be the fault of the right turning vehicle in that case.
Quote from: Brandon on May 17, 2013, 03:47:31 PM
Quote from: corco on May 17, 2013, 03:14:30 PM
QuoteI'll respectfully disagree. If you do not have the right-of-way to turn, you wait for the other person to complete his turn. Again, if you do not have a protected left, you wait for the person turning right. If you have the protected left, the person turning right must stop and wait. It's as simple as that and does not need a silly law restricting movement.
A four lane road may not be the best way to look at it, because sometimes those are too tight for two vehicles to be turning at the same time. But what about a six lane road? Is it really necessary to deny a right turner the ability to make any movement just to accommodate a left turner that just has to get to the right lane as quickly as possible?
Yes. If the person turning right has a red signal, and the person turning left has a protected signal, the person turning right should wait until it is clear before proceeding.
It's interesting how driving etiquette varies from state to state. Around here, the Midwest, it is considered uncouth to turn right on red if the left turn has a protected signal. Most cops will consider an accident to be the fault of the right turning vehicle in that case.
I agree with corco. If I'm facing a red light and want to turn right, then it's my duty to wait until it is "clear" to make my turn. Especially in places where it's the law for oncoming left-turning traffic to take the left lane, then the definition of "clear" is a little fuzzy. Think about the step-by-step progression of these scenarios: (1) merging onto a freeway with no yield sign at the head of the on-ramp; (2) merging onto a freeway with a yield sign at the head of the on-ramp; (3) entering via RIRO on an expressway with an acceleration lane; (4) entering via RIRO on an expressway with no acceleration lane; (5) making a right turn onto an arterial. All of those situations might mean entering the roadway with another vehicle already in the left lane–a vehicle which may legally enter the lane you intend to use. Yet we don't hesitate to merge onto a freeway next to an 18-wheeler as long as he's in the left lane.
Also, do you remember when (and it might still be like this, for all I know) the interchange of Harlem Avenue and the Eisenhower featured opposing green left- and right-turn arrows? EB Ike traffic got a green left arrow onto NB Harlem at the same time WB Ike traffic got a green right arrow onto NB Harlem. If people don't keep their lanes while turning, that kind of setup turns out badly.
Quote from: Brandon on May 17, 2013, 03:47:31 PM
Most cops will consider an accident to be the fault of the right turning vehicle in that case.
Ultimately though, it's not who the cop considers to be at fault. It's who the judge considers to be at fault.
Oh, boy. Where to start. First off, me as a pedestrian. I hate crossing those uncontrolled crosswalks with a passion! Mainly because a good deal of Missoula's streets lack stop lines. Take McDonald Avenue and Russell Street for example. God, I hate crossing that thing! People don't even take at least two to three seconds to look for foot traffic. They're too busy looking for the motoring traffic. One intersection that I also hate that is an accident waiting to happen is Brooks Street and South Avenue heading northbound US 93 Business/eastbound US 12. I get forced to stop because people that turn on to the eastern portion of South Avenue don't see pedestrians cross there. I have a major gripe about that intersection because I'm afraid someone will get hit by an unattentive motorist there.
Now, me as a driver. I hate it when get tail gated. Man that pisses me off so much. I was in the back seat of my roommate's aunt's car a few nights ago coming home from Denny's on Brooks. We got off Ernest Avenue and some dumbass almost ran into the back of us. He honks the horn and I flip the guy the bird. Shit like this piss me off as a motorist. Another thing is that when I obey the speed limits in Missoula, people tend to not like the fact that I'm going the speed limit and that they have to rush me and force me to break the speed limit. That goes for school zones. Those are double fine zones. Why is it that you have to be in that much of a rush to get to where you want to go? Next, speeders! God, I hate speeders! They want to peel off a corner like an F1 racer or pass you by on the interstate at 90 like in a bad NASCAR scene.
Missoula is really hard not to speed in- the lack of any sort of proper bypass through town builds up traffic, which builds up frustration, which builds up speeding. I'm not much of a speeder, usually 5 over. If I'm on, say, Brooks on my way back to Idaho though I find it very difficult not to speed up to make the next light- those lights aren't really timed, so you can save a lot of time by going 5-7 over. It's not even so much a rush as it is human nature to just sort of push things. If I know I can make that next light by going 2 MPH faster, it's really hard not to do that.
If there's little traffic, 45 becomes a really underposted speed on the southwest side of town, and it's tough not to go faster.
Maybe that's my own problem, but there it is anyway.
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on May 18, 2013, 07:36:34 PM
Oh, boy. Where to start. First off ... I hate ... with a passion! ... God, I hate... I get forced to... a major gripe ... Now, me ... I hate it ... Man that pisses me off so much ... some dumbass ... I flip the guy the bird. Shit ... piss me off ... Another thing is ... people tend to not like the fact that I'm ... have to rush me and force me ... Why is it that you have to be ... Next ... God, I hate
Ummm.....
Drivers don't adjust their speed and following distance for weather/traffic conditions. For most the norm is run the speed limit + 10 no matter what conditions are, heavy rain, dense fog, winter precip. I LOVE it when one passes me then spins out, bwhaaha serves you right sucker!! bi-bi :wave:
QuoteI LOVE it when one passes me then spins out, bwhaaha serves you right sucker!!
I really enjoy this too.
Quote from: corco on May 17, 2013, 03:14:30 PMQuoteI'll respectfully disagree. If you do not have the right-of-way to turn, you wait for the other person to complete his turn. Again, if you do not have a protected left, you wait for the person turning right. If you have the protected left, the person turning right must stop and wait. It's as simple as that and does not need a silly law restricting movement.
But if you have that law in place and enforce it, then right turning traffic has the right of way to the outside lane and left turning traffic has right of way to the inside lane, allowing for a lot more throughput.
I think the impact on throughput is in fact quite modest, largely because in the absence of channelization (including provision of dedicated turn lanes), the opportunity to turn is restricted to vehicles that are at the head of the queue and actually want to make the turn.
QuoteA four lane road may not be the best way to look at it, because sometimes those are too tight for two vehicles to be turning at the same time. But what about a six lane road? Is it really necessary to deny a right turner the ability to make any movement just to accommodate a left turner that just has to get to the right lane as quickly as possible?
I don't think we in fact deny the right-turner that opportunity, at least in UVC direct adopter states. We just don't favor that kind of maneuver in our rules for assigning fault or liability, which come into play when things go pear-shaped. It is not consistent with defensive driving unless the roadscape has been structured in such a way that vehicles turning into the same road from different directions in effect have to merge.
QuoteIt's a different way of framing right of way. I'm pretty sure that in most situations where a left turner turns into the outside lane and hits somebody turning right into the outside lane, it would be a no-fault accident or the fault of the person turning left, not the fault of the person turning right in states where this is the law.
Actually, I think both drivers could be cited on the basis that they both made maneuvers which they were legally required not to perform without first ascertaining that they could be completed safely.
- Driving white (or shades of light gray/silver) vehicles without their lights on in a snowstorm
- People changing lanes without attempting to check their blind spot. And the flip-side, those who insist on remaining in someone else's blind spot.
- Drivers not knowing the capabilities of their own vehicle, whether it's over-driving their 4x4 in a blizzard or thinking their vehicle needs as much space as an 18-wheeler when making a right turn. A closely related one would be those who insist on cutting a left turn as short as possible.
The previous post brought to mind another peeve:
A car or pickup veering left suddenly just prior to make a right turn, although it is not needed, and is dangerous to through traffic to boot.
Quote from: djsinco on May 19, 2013, 04:02:07 PM
The previous post brought to mind another peeve:
A car or pickup veering left suddenly just prior to make a right turn, although it is not needed, and is dangerous to through traffic to boot.
My father calls that a "Mississippi turn" in (dis)honor of the way the river of that name curves all over the place. It may be fine in a car park or pulling into a driveway for a one-car garage, but I've never understood why people do that out on the road.
Quote from: corco on May 18, 2013, 07:55:16 PM
Missoula is really hard not to speed in- the lack of any sort of proper bypass through town builds up traffic, which builds up frustration, which builds up speeding. I'm not much of a speeder, usually 5 over. If I'm on, say, Brooks on my way back to Idaho though I find it very difficult not to speed up to make the next light- those lights aren't really timed, so you can save a lot of time by going 5-7 over. It's not even so much a rush as it is human nature to just sort of push things. If I know I can make that next light by going 2 MPH faster, it's really hard not to do that.
If there's little traffic, 45 becomes a really underposted speed on the southwest side of town, and it's tough not to go faster.
Maybe that's my own problem, but there it is anyway.
I-90 and U.S. 93 don't bypass Missoula?
I-90 obviously helps east-west traffic, but no, 93 isn't much of a bypass for north south traffic. It's a stoplight infested hellhole.
Obviously we're speaking relatively here- for Montana it's a fuckton of traffic, but it's not Tucson or something.
Another one...Drivers who make an illegal left turn shortcut through a median which was only designed for left turns from the main roadway, not left turns into it. I take great pleasure when I am the one making the proper left turn and subsequently thwarting someone's plans of pulling a lazy maneuver. :sombrero:
Examples:
http://goo.gl/maps/ijghf (http://goo.gl/maps/ijghf)
http://goo.gl/maps/bDXZn (http://goo.gl/maps/bDXZn) <- This one will only exist for about another 6 months, as McCoy Rd is being realigned and this intersection closed.
I was just obnoxiously reminded of another today: people who don't use cruise control but also do a very poor job of modulating their speed. If my cruise is set to 80 and your speed drifts between 75 and 85, don't get mad that we keep playing hopscotch passing each other repeatedly.
Quote from: realjd on May 19, 2013, 08:15:01 PM
I was just obnoxiously reminded of another today: people who don't use cruise control but also do a very poor job of modulating their speed. If my cruise is set to 80 and your speed drifts between 75 and 85, don't get mad that we keep playing hopscotch passing each other repeatedly.
Well, there's that - drivers who get mad when they get passed. That's not a mistake, but I don't get it at all. If I'm going faster, let me pass and you'll never see me again. Even if I'm not passing a way you like, just ignore me. I don't care when cars pass me unless they're doing as you say such that I catch up to them again. After 2 times, I just keep them behind me when they want to go faster, and pull away when they want to go slower.
Taking a right turn from a driveway into the leftmost lane. On a 3+ lane street. Good lord, Florida drivers make me want to rage.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on May 19, 2013, 09:04:48 PM
Taking a right turn from a driveway into the leftmost lane. On a 3+ lane street. Good lord, Florida drivers make me want to rage.
The right and center lane have traffic but the left lane doesn't? You bet I'm turning into the left lane the second I have a hole big enough to get to it. You'd rather I turn into the busy lanes in front of another driver? Or what if I need to make an immediate left turn?
Quote from: realjd on May 20, 2013, 12:16:04 AM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on May 19, 2013, 09:04:48 PM
Taking a right turn from a driveway into the leftmost lane. On a 3+ lane street. Good lord, Florida drivers make me want to rage.
The right and center lane have traffic but the left lane doesn't? You bet I'm turning into the left lane the second I have a hole big enough to get to it. You'd rather I turn into the busy lanes in front of another driver? Or what if I need to make an immediate left turn?
Actually, I'd rather you wait until traffic is clear. If traffic is heavy, this is what causes accidents. And if you have to go further and make a u-turn to accomplish that movement safely, then that's what needs to be done.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 20, 2013, 12:25:02 PM
.... And if you have to go further and make a u-turn to accomplish that movement safely, then that's what needs to be done.
Frankly, this is one of the things that I think has disappeared most in recent years. When I learned to drive it was emphasized that if you find yourself in the wrong lane (doesn't matter what sort of lane–left-turn-only lane and you want to go straight, exit-only lane on the Interstate and you don't want to exit, thru lane on the Interstate and you DID want to exit, etc.), you go where that lane takes you and either make a U-turn, go around the block, get off at the next exit and work back, whatever, but you do not just stop or slow to a crawl and insist on getting over, and you definitely do not ignore the lane restrictions and go straight out of a turn lane or drive on the shoulder after the "exit-only" lane ends. ("Ramp-running" at a cloverleaf interchange with a separated C/D lane is a different matter, of course, and I see nothing wrong with that; indeed I sometimes do it on purpose when traffic is particularly heavy so as to give myself the option of exiting if I want.)
Nowadays, it seems like people think getting into the wrong lane allows you to stop and hold up everyone else until you correct it. Saw a guy slow to a crawl in a left-turn lane this morning because he wanted to go straight, and then when the people behind him started honking, he just floored it and went straight out of the turn lane.
Quote from: allniter89 on May 18, 2013, 10:10:53 PM
Drivers don't adjust their speed and following distance for weather/traffic conditions. For most the norm is run the speed limit + 10 no matter what conditions are, heavy rain, dense fog, winter precip. I LOVE it when one passes me then spins out, bwhaaha serves you right sucker!! bi-bi :wave:
The opposite also annoys me: people who think they have to go 10 mph on the Interstate after a half inch of snow. I wouldn't consider that a "mistake", though, just extra caution. Yours of driving too fast for conditions is certainly a mistake.
Quote from: kphoger on May 20, 2013, 02:31:35 PM
Quote from: allniter89 on May 18, 2013, 10:10:53 PM
Drivers don't adjust their speed and following distance for weather/traffic conditions. For most the norm is run the speed limit + 10 no matter what conditions are, heavy rain, dense fog, winter precip. I LOVE it when one passes me then spins out, bwhaaha serves you right sucker!! bi-bi :wave:
The opposite also annoys me: people who think they have to go 10 mph on the Interstate after a half inch of snow. I wouldn't consider that a "mistake", though, just extra caution. Yours of driving too fast for conditions is certainly a mistake.
In Austin they do this in the rain, even if it's sprinkling
Drivers who don't stop for pedestrians.
Drivers who stop for pedestrians.
Pedestrians who expect drivers to stop for them.
Pedestrians who don't expect drivers to stop for them.
Quote from: kphoger on May 20, 2013, 02:31:35 PM
Quote from: allniter89 on May 18, 2013, 10:10:53 PM
Drivers don't adjust their speed and following distance for weather/traffic conditions. For most the norm is run the speed limit + 10 no matter what conditions are, heavy rain, dense fog, winter precip. I LOVE it when one passes me then spins out, bwhaaha serves you right sucker!! bi-bi :wave:
The opposite also annoys me: people who think they have to go 10 mph on the Interstate after a half inch of snow. I wouldn't consider that a "mistake", though, just extra caution. Yours of driving too fast for conditions is certainly a mistake.
10 mph on a freeway is most certainly a mistake. If you are going that slow, it's time to get off the freeway and either, a) take a surface street, or b) wait for conditions to improve. Otherwise, you are then a road hazard to those of us who know how to drive in inclement conditions.
Quote from: NE2 on May 20, 2013, 02:56:47 PM
Drivers who don't stop for pedestrians.
Drivers who stop for pedestrians.
Pedestrians who expect drivers to stop for them.
Pedestrians who don't expect drivers to stop for them.
All those issues are a function of outdated right of way laws that wrongly presume a driver in a multi-ton vehicle can maneuver and react more quickly than a pedestrian on foot can. Not to mention a grossly unbalanced penalty system whereby a driver who violates a pedestrian's "rights", even if the pedestrian is breaking the law, gets hit with a not so-insignificant fine and insurance surcharges, whereas the pedestrian usually gets only a $25 ticket, if they're ticketed at all.
In most states, there are established "standards of fault" to cover various crash situations. I would like to see such standards established for situations like jaywalking, crossing on a "Don't Walk" light, and the like.
what
Quote from: NE2 on May 20, 2013, 07:33:37 PM
what
Most common driver mistake: pedestrians trying to get hit.
Quote from: Steve on May 20, 2013, 09:03:47 PM
Quote from: NE2 on May 20, 2013, 07:33:37 PM
what
Most common driver mistake: pedestrians trying to get hit.
I've actually seen that. Usually they're teenagers with nothing better to do than lay down, with their buddies watching, in the middle the flipping street.
And the age just seems to keep going down. I like to see how close I can get to the kid. :ninja:
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 20, 2013, 12:37:10 PM
("Ramp-running" at a cloverleaf interchange with a separated C/D lane is a different matter, of course, and I see nothing wrong with that; indeed I sometimes do it on purpose when traffic is particularly heavy so as to give myself the option of exiting if I want.)
I've never encountered the term "ramp-running", but I assume you mean using the C/D lane and then continuing straight on the mainline. If that's what you mean, there is definitely something wrong with that, at least with certain interchange geometries.
In the particular case that I encounter regularly, on SB MN-100 at MN-7/CSAH-25, the merge from 7/25 onto the SB C/D road is VERY tight and controlled with a Yield sign. Actually it's two Yield signs with big orange flags on them. This is a high-collision point, and every car on the C/D lane adds to the danger. Even if there isn't a crash, the extra traffic causes a backup on the loop because cars end up stopped while queueing at the Yield signs.
So stay off the C/D road unless you're exiting.
I know it's OT, but that made me think of something I did once....
Has anyone taken the loop ramp of a cloverleaf, found that traffic was backed up, and then taken the other three loop ramps in succession in order to end up going the way you started out? (like this (http://goo.gl/maps/z91JC))
Quote from: Coelacanth on May 21, 2013, 02:08:36 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 20, 2013, 12:37:10 PM
("Ramp-running" at a cloverleaf interchange with a separated C/D lane is a different matter, of course, and I see nothing wrong with that; indeed I sometimes do it on purpose when traffic is particularly heavy so as to give myself the option of exiting if I want.)
I've never encountered the term "ramp-running", but I assume you mean using the C/D lane and then continuing straight on the mainline. If that's what you mean, there is definitely something wrong with that, at least with certain interchange geometries.
In the particular case that I encounter regularly, on SB MN-100 at MN-7/CSAH-25, the merge from 7/25 onto the SB C/D road is VERY tight and controlled with a Yield sign. Actually it's two Yield signs with big orange flags on them. This is a high-collision point, and every car on the C/D lane adds to the danger. Even if there isn't a crash, the extra traffic causes a backup on the loop because cars end up stopped while queueing at the Yield signs.
So stay off the C/D road unless you're exiting.
I didn't say it's always OK just to do it for whatever reason you want, but I also don't agree with you that it's never appropriate. Obviously, under
normal circumstances you should use the regular lanes. But I don't think simply saying "stay off the C/D road unless you're exiting" is a valid position.
First, consider what I was saying in my prior post immediately before the sentence you quoted above:
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 20, 2013, 12:37:10 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 20, 2013, 12:25:02 PM
.... And if you have to go further and make a u-turn to accomplish that movement safely, then that's what needs to be done.
Frankly, this is one of the things that I think has disappeared most in recent years. When I learned to drive it was emphasized that if you find yourself in the wrong lane (doesn't matter what sort of lane–left-turn-only lane and you want to go straight, exit-only lane on the Interstate and you don't want to exit, thru lane on the Interstate and you DID want to exit, etc.), you go where that lane takes you and either make a U-turn, go around the block, get off at the next exit and work back, whatever, but you do not just stop or slow to a crawl and insist on getting over, and you definitely do not ignore the lane restrictions and go straight out of a turn lane or drive on the shoulder after the "exit-only" lane ends. ("Ramp-running" at a cloverleaf interchange with a separated C/D lane is a different matter, of course, and I see nothing wrong with that; indeed I sometimes do it on purpose when traffic is particularly heavy so as to give myself the option of exiting if I want.)
Nowadays, it seems like people think getting into the wrong lane allows you to stop and hold up everyone else until you correct it. Saw a guy slow to a crawl in a left-turn lane this morning because he wanted to go straight, and then when the people behind him started honking, he just floored it and went straight out of the turn lane.
If you read that full comment in context, I was talking about people who slow to a crawl or stop or drive on the shoulder when they realized they're in an exit lane and they don't want to exit. In that situation, I'd always advocate running the C/D road (exercising due care to deal with people coming down the ramps, obviously) as being the preferable action instead of holding up other traffic or doing something stupid by trying to force your way out of the "Exit Only" lane.
Second, sometimes in limited situations I think using the C/D road in order to give yourself options can be a good move. For example, here's a satellite view of I-66 at Nutley Street (VA-243) in Fairfax County, Virginia, with I-66 running across the photo (http://goo.gl/maps/MBjBL). The extremely long C/D roads span basically the entire picture (that's why I left it zoomed out so much). Both directions of I-66 are notorious for being backed up at all hours of the day, with eastbound perhaps being a bit worse (during the morning rush hour, the majority of traffic must take the next exit due to HOV restrictions). At this interchange, I've frequently exited onto the C/D road with the idea that I'll see how the traffic looks once I reach the exit point for Nutley Street and then either exit or get back on the highway as appropriate (and a lot of other people do the same); last month this proved to be a wise move when the traffic backup out on the main road turned out to have been caused by a crash that was blocking all four lanes just before the far end of the C/D road.
VDOT actually used to
encourage people to use a C/D lane on southbound I-95 in Springfield under Route 644 as a thru travel lane because the traffic at that particular location was so bad that having people use the C/D road as a regular lane was preferable. That's long defunct now that the interchange was rebuilt.
Re-reading my prior comment I can see how someone could misinterpret it as saying that it's OK just to run the C/D roads whenever you want. That wasn't quite what I meant, but I didn't really word it properly. On the other hand, it doesn't make sense to make it presumptively illegal, either.
Quote from: kphoger on May 21, 2013, 02:26:34 PM
I know it's OT, but that made me think of something I did once....
Has anyone taken the loop ramp of a cloverleaf, found that traffic was backed up, and then taken the other three loop ramps in succession in order to end up going the way you started out? (like this (http://goo.gl/maps/z91JC))
Around here the loop ramps on some of the cloverleafs have been used in that fashion as designated detour routes during road construction in recent years when all lanes had to be closed to allow for bridge beams to be hoisted into place.
I don't think I've ever done what you describe, but I can think of multiple times when I've started down a loop ramp that isn't part of a cloverleaf, seen a major traffic backup, and cut a U-turn across a gravel area near the bottom of the ramp. (Satellite view here; the gravel area is next to the car that's going down the loop ramp. (http://goo.gl/maps/Vht8l))
Quote from: kphoger on May 21, 2013, 02:26:34 PM
I know it's OT, but that made me think of something I did once....
Has anyone taken the loop ramp of a cloverleaf, found that traffic was backed up, and then taken the other three loop ramps in succession in order to end up going the way you started out? (like this (http://goo.gl/maps/z91JC))
Never done that, but I've seen people take a loop ramp to find traffic backed up, then cross the median between the loop and outside ramps and re-enter the freeway mainline
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 21, 2013, 02:51:37 PM
I can think of multiple times when I've started down a loop ramp that isn't part of a cloverleaf, seen a major traffic backup, and cut a U-turn across a gravel area near the bottom of the ramp. (Satellite view here; the gravel area is next to the car that's going down the loop ramp. (http://goo.gl/maps/Vht8l))
Judging by the GMSV, you're not the only who's pulled that maneuver.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 21, 2013, 02:51:37 PM
Re-reading my prior comment I can see how someone could misinterpret it as saying that it's OK just to run the C/D roads whenever you want. That wasn't quite what I meant, but I didn't really word it properly. On the other hand, it doesn't make sense to make it presumptively illegal, either.
I didn't mean to suggest making it illegal, but I do consider it a "driver mistake".
In the particular interchange I'm concerned with, the entrance to the C/D lane is "Exit Only". To me, this means that if you are not exiting, you should not be in that lane.
In general, I think people should follow the signs rather than creating extra weaving movements for themselves. Which is not to say I think they should be ticketed if they do use the C/D lane and then decide not to exit.
Quote from: Coelacanth on May 21, 2013, 04:12:44 PM
In the particular interchange I'm concerned with, the entrance to the C/D lane is "Exit Only". To me, this means that if you are not exiting, you should not be in that lane.
The driver
does exit. He then re-enters.
The "exit only" is not regulatory, but is a warning (hence the yellow color) that the lane you're in deviates from the road you're on.
Yeah, I don't disagree that if the driver can move out of the "Exit Only" lane into a thru lane without causing a hazard or holding up anyone else, that's the preferable thing to do. But if he can't do that, I think running the C/D road is better than slowing to a crawl, or driving on the shoulder, or cutting someone off.
Earlier today I was waiting to make a right on red and as I watched for a gap, I saw three lanes of traffic on the other road being held up because a dump truck driver had gotten into a left-turn-only lane, apparently wanted to turn right, and was determined to force his way across to the right-turn-only lanes instead of just going left and making a U-turn down the road. To me that's obnoxious. Slowing to a crawl in the "Exit Only" lane when there are people behind you who want to exit is similar.
Quote from: kphoger on May 21, 2013, 02:26:34 PM
I know it's OT, but that made me think of something I did once....
Has anyone taken the loop ramp of a cloverleaf, found that traffic was backed up, and then taken the other three loop ramps in succession in order to end up going the way you started out? (like this (http://goo.gl/maps/z91JC))
Yup. CR 527 SB, went to get on I-280 EB in Livingston NJ, saw backup, looped back onto 527 SB and went the long way south.
Quote from: kphoger on May 21, 2013, 02:26:34 PM
I know it's OT, but that made me think of something I did once....
Has anyone taken the loop ramp of a cloverleaf, found that traffic was backed up, and then taken the other three loop ramps in succession in order to end up going the way you started out? (like this (http://goo.gl/maps/z91JC))
Yes. I also wound up paying an extra 75 cents on the Tri-State last night to avoid such a thing as well. Got on a Roosevelt, left at 22nd to get to the East-West Tollway.
QuoteI didn't say it's always OK just to do it for whatever reason you want, but I also don't agree with you that it's never appropriate. Obviously, under normal circumstances you should use the regular lanes. But I don't think simply saying "stay off the C/D road unless you're exiting" is a valid position.
Heh, the express buses do that regularly on I-5 through Seattle- there's no signage encouraging them to do that, but I assume they've gotten the go-ahead because they're buses.
The only time I was ever on the 401 through Toronto was during early rushhour, and I got chastised by my friends for staying in the "express" lanes when the "local" (c/d) lanes were clearly moving much faster.
In the Greater Los Angeles Area, there are lots of cloverleaf & C/D interchanges where they encourage ramp running. Even going as far as stating "THRU O.K." on the BGSs.
On a four-lane highway near me, I frequently come across two people side-by-side, going 45 in a 50. Since it's only four lanes, I can't pass. :banghead:
At least not if there's a median.....unless the shoulder is wide enough.....
Quote from: kphoger on May 21, 2013, 08:56:26 PM
At least not if there's a median.....unless the shoulder is wide enough.....
Nah man, there's a median the whole way. The shoulder is wide enough for passing, but the road is frequently patrolled and I don't want to be an idiot. Especially since no one ever does, say, 30 mph in both lanes.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 20, 2013, 12:25:02 PM
Quote from: realjd on May 20, 2013, 12:16:04 AM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on May 19, 2013, 09:04:48 PM
Taking a right turn from a driveway into the leftmost lane. On a 3+ lane street. Good lord, Florida drivers make me want to rage.
The right and center lane have traffic but the left lane doesn't? You bet I'm turning into the left lane the second I have a hole big enough to get to it. You'd rather I turn into the busy lanes in front of another driver? Or what if I need to make an immediate left turn?
Actually, I'd rather you wait until traffic is clear. If traffic is heavy, this is what causes accidents. And if you have to go further and make a u-turn to accomplish that movement safely, then that's what needs to be done.
Visibility is excellent here in flat Florida. It takes a smaller gap to cross a lane than it does to pull out into a lane and accelerate to speed. If I see a decent gap on the right and center lane with nobody for a half mile in the left lane, I fail to see how my turning into the left lane would cause an accident.
Quote from: realjd on May 21, 2013, 11:32:45 PM
If I see a decent gap on the right and center lane with nobody for a half mile in the left lane, I fail to see how my turning into the left lane would cause an accident.
Say I'm driving in the center lane, with another driver somewhere nearby in the right lane. I see you start to turn right from a side street.
As a defensive driver, I make the assumption that you must have failed to see one or both of us, or else you wouldn't be turning right in front of us. So, as an avoidance maneuver, I move into the left lane, thereby giving you and the driver on my right more wiggle room to avoid each other. Now, though, because you decided not to wait for the
proper lane to open up, you and I are on a collision course. If you or I notice this in time to react, then one of us (which one?) could change course for the center lane. But, if the driver in the right lane has
also moved left in order to avoid you, then that lane is no longer clear either. In fact, it then becomes a possibility that all three of us end up trying for the same lane, and all because you did what was not expected.
Quote from: kphoger on May 22, 2013, 11:01:41 AM
Quote from: realjd on May 21, 2013, 11:32:45 PM
If I see a decent gap on the right and center lane with nobody for a half mile in the left lane, I fail to see how my turning into the left lane would cause an accident.
Say I'm driving in the center lane, with another driver somewhere nearby in the right lane. I see you start to turn right from a side street. As a defensive driver, I make the assumption that you must have failed to see one or both of us, or else you wouldn't be turning right in front of us. So, as an avoidance maneuver, I move into the left lane, thereby giving you and the driver on my right more wiggle room to avoid each other. Now, though, because you decided not to wait for the proper lane to open up, you and I are on a collision course. If you or I notice this in time to react, then one of us (which one?) could change course for the center lane. But, if the driver in the right lane has also moved left in order to avoid you, then that lane is no longer clear either. In fact, it then becomes a possibility that all three of us end up trying for the same lane, and all because you did what was not expected.
kp, could not agree more! I see far too many instances of the failure to yield the right of way, which is the violation caused by any other driver who causes one to be forced to react to a vehicle in any manner that must yield.
Every day, and for the last 15 - 20 years, I see and have seen the unfortunate side effect of those who have never driven vehicles built before the era (roughly about 1990) when cars were not so "easy" to drive. Modern automobiles have better brakes, more acceleration, better handling, and they are quieter inside. All these factors combine to allow drivers of the more recent generations to believe that sandwiching into any opening more than a car length is a reasonable merge, even at freeway speeds. Of course, eventually this overconfidence causes many accidents.
Quote from: kphoger on May 21, 2013, 02:26:34 PM
I know it's OT, but that made me think of something I did once....
Has anyone taken the loop ramp of a cloverleaf, found that traffic was backed up, and then taken the other three loop ramps in succession in order to end up going the way you started out? (like this (http://goo.gl/maps/z91JC))
Yeah I've done that alot in a 18wheeler, great way to reverse direction if you're lost or missed your exit.
Quote from: djsinco on May 22, 2013, 03:08:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 22, 2013, 11:01:41 AM
Quote from: realjd on May 21, 2013, 11:32:45 PM
If I see a decent gap on the right and center lane with nobody for a half mile in the left lane, I fail to see how my turning into the left lane would cause an accident.
Say I'm driving in the center lane, with another driver somewhere nearby in the right lane. I see you start to turn right from a side street. As a defensive driver, I make the assumption that you must have failed to see one or both of us, or else you wouldn't be turning right in front of us. So, as an avoidance maneuver, I move into the left lane, thereby giving you and the driver on my right more wiggle room to avoid each other. Now, though, because you decided not to wait for the proper lane to open up, you and I are on a collision course. If you or I notice this in time to react, then one of us (which one?) could change course for the center lane. But, if the driver in the right lane has also moved left in order to avoid you, then that lane is no longer clear either. In fact, it then becomes a possibility that all three of us end up trying for the same lane, and all because you did what was not expected.
kp, could not agree more! I see far too many instances of the failure to yield the right of way, which is the violation caused by any other driver who causes one to be forced to react to a vehicle in any manner that must yield.
Every day, and for the last 15 - 20 years, I see and have seen the unfortunate side effect of those who have never driven vehicles built before the era (roughly about 1990) when cars were not so "easy" to drive. Modern automobiles have better brakes, more acceleration, better handling, and they are quieter inside. All these factors combine to allow drivers of the more recent generations to believe that sandwiching into any opening more than a car length is a reasonable merge, even at freeway speeds. Of course, eventually this overconfidence causes many accidents.
Times like that when I wish I were driving an all-metal 1968 Chevy Impala. They would be at fault, their car turned into mince-meat, while my heavy-metal "tank" would barely have a blemish. :bigass:
QuoteSay I'm driving in the center lane, with another driver somewhere nearby in the right lane. I see you start to turn right from a side street. As a defensive driver, I make the assumption that you must have failed to see one or both of us, or else you wouldn't be turning right in front of us. So, as an avoidance maneuver, I move into the left lane, thereby giving you and the driver on my right more wiggle room to avoid each other. Now, though, because you decided not to wait for the proper lane to open up, you and I are on a collision course. If you or I notice this in time to react, then one of us (which one?) could change course for the center lane. But, if the driver in the right lane has also moved left in order to avoid you, then that lane is no longer clear either. In fact, it then becomes a possibility that all three of us end up trying for the same lane, and all because you did what was not expected.
The closest I've ever come to an accident was in a situation like this in Arizona a year or so ago. I was driving down a divided four lane road in the outside lane when I noticed a car doing a u-turn in a designated u-turn lane in front of me. The road was narrow enough that they'd have to get into the outside lane, so when they pulled out right in front of me I moved into the inside lane, assuming that they wouldn't have made the u-turn if they saw me. The car went into the outside lane as I expected, and by then my front was roughly parallel to their rear end (this is how close it was). The car then moved into the inside lane (judging the timing I'm 85% sure he thought I was still in the outside lane), forcing me up onto the raised median as I braked (which fortunately had a shallow enough curb to more or less drive up on without causing damage). It took him a couple seconds to notice what was happening. I controlled it well enough that no damage was caused to either of us, but I chewed him out pretty good at the light after it happened.
Quote from: realjd on May 21, 2013, 11:32:45 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 20, 2013, 12:25:02 PM
Quote from: realjd on May 20, 2013, 12:16:04 AM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on May 19, 2013, 09:04:48 PM
Taking a right turn from a driveway into the leftmost lane. On a 3+ lane street. Good lord, Florida drivers make me want to rage.
The right and center lane have traffic but the left lane doesn't? You bet I'm turning into the left lane the second I have a hole big enough to get to it. You'd rather I turn into the busy lanes in front of another driver? Or what if I need to make an immediate left turn?
Actually, I'd rather you wait until traffic is clear. If traffic is heavy, this is what causes accidents. And if you have to go further and make a u-turn to accomplish that movement safely, then that's what needs to be done.
Visibility is excellent here in flat Florida. It takes a smaller gap to cross a lane than it does to pull out into a lane and accelerate to speed. If I see a decent gap on the right and center lane with nobody for a half mile in the left lane, I fail to see how my turning into the left lane would cause an accident.
I see your point and I should probably be more careful when I'm driving other places but in Florida, nobody would change lanes because standard practice is what I described. The "proper" lane is the one without cars. Defensive drivers would brake within their lane (if needed; the gap should be big enough to cross without people braking) without changing lanes anticipating the driver moving into the empty lane.
Quote from: allniter89 on May 22, 2013, 10:34:14 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 21, 2013, 02:26:34 PM
I know it's OT, but that made me think of something I did once....
Has anyone taken the loop ramp of a cloverleaf, found that traffic was backed up, and then taken the other three loop ramps in succession in order to end up going the way you started out? (like this (http://goo.gl/maps/z91JC))
Yeah I've done that alot in a 18wheeler, great way to reverse direction if you're lost or missed your exit.
Actually, no, it's a great way to go the exact same direction you were originally going. To reverse direction, one would only do half of what I described.
Another on my list of annoying driver errors: those who pull up to and right through the stop area when entering from a residential street onto an arterial. Although they stop, the front bumper is more or less past the curb, and they show no signs of slowing from about 10 mph until the very last second, usually without ever making eye contact. Very obnoxious!
People doing 20 over the limit in the construction zones, and then tailgating your arse all the way through. :angry: