The most common driver mistake that you see where you live?

[kphoger]

And the age just seems to keep going down.  I like to see how close I can get to the kid. 

[Coelacanth]

("Ramp-running" at a cloverleaf interchange with a separated C/D lane is a different matter, of course, and I see nothing wrong with that; indeed I sometimes do it on purpose when traffic is particularly heavy so as to give myself the option of exiting if I want.)

I've never encountered the term "ramp-running", but I assume you mean using the C/D lane and then continuing straight on the mainline. If that's what you mean, there is definitely something wrong with that, at least with certain interchange geometries.

In the particular case that I encounter regularly, on SB MN-100 at MN-7/CSAH-25, the merge from 7/25 onto the SB C/D road is VERY tight and controlled with a Yield sign. Actually it's two Yield signs with big orange flags on them. This is a high-collision point, and every car on the C/D lane adds to the danger. Even if there isn't a crash, the extra traffic causes a backup on the loop because cars end up stopped while queueing at the Yield signs.

So stay off the C/D road unless you're exiting.

[kphoger]

I know it's OT, but that made me think of something I did once....

Has anyone taken the loop ramp of a cloverleaf, found that traffic was backed up, and then taken the other three loop ramps in succession in order to end up going the way you started out?  (like this)

[1995hoo]

("Ramp-running" at a cloverleaf interchange with a separated C/D lane is a different matter, of course, and I see nothing wrong with that; indeed I sometimes do it on purpose when traffic is particularly heavy so as to give myself the option of exiting if I want.)

I've never encountered the term "ramp-running", but I assume you mean using the C/D lane and then continuing straight on the mainline. If that's what you mean, there is definitely something wrong with that, at least with certain interchange geometries.

In the particular case that I encounter regularly, on SB MN-100 at MN-7/CSAH-25, the merge from 7/25 onto the SB C/D road is VERY tight and controlled with a Yield sign. Actually it's two Yield signs with big orange flags on them. This is a high-collision point, and every car on the C/D lane adds to the danger. Even if there isn't a crash, the extra traffic causes a backup on the loop because cars end up stopped while queueing at the Yield signs.

So stay off the C/D road unless you're exiting.

I didn't say it's always OK just to do it for whatever reason you want, but I also don't agree with you that it's never appropriate. Obviously, under normal circumstances you should use the regular lanes. But I don't think simply saying "stay off the C/D road unless you're exiting" is a valid position.

First, consider what I was saying in my prior post immediately before the sentence you quoted above:

....  And if you have to go further and make a u-turn to accomplish that movement safely, then that's what needs to be done. 

Frankly, this is one of the things that I think has disappeared most in recent years. When I learned to drive it was emphasized that if you find yourself in the wrong lane (doesn't matter what sort of lane–left-turn-only lane and you want to go straight, exit-only lane on the Interstate and you don't want to exit, thru lane on the Interstate and you DID want to exit, etc.), you go where that lane takes you and either make a U-turn, go around the block, get off at the next exit and work back, whatever, but you do not just stop or slow to a crawl and insist on getting over, and you definitely do not ignore the lane restrictions and go straight out of a turn lane or drive on the shoulder after the "exit-only" lane ends. ("Ramp-running" at a cloverleaf interchange with a separated C/D lane is a different matter, of course, and I see nothing wrong with that; indeed I sometimes do it on purpose when traffic is particularly heavy so as to give myself the option of exiting if I want.)

Nowadays, it seems like people think getting into the wrong lane allows you to stop and hold up everyone else until you correct it. Saw a guy slow to a crawl in a left-turn lane this morning because he wanted to go straight, and then when the people behind him started honking, he just floored it and went straight out of the turn lane.

If you read that full comment in context, I was talking about people who slow to a crawl or stop or drive on the shoulder when they realized they're in an exit lane and they don't want to exit. In that situation, I'd always advocate running the C/D road (exercising due care to deal with people coming down the ramps, obviously) as being the preferable action instead of holding up other traffic or doing something stupid by trying to force your way out of the "Exit Only" lane.

Second, sometimes in limited situations I think using the C/D road in order to give yourself options can be a good move. For example, here's a satellite view of I-66 at Nutley Street (VA-243) in Fairfax County, Virginia, with I-66 running across the photo. The extremely long C/D roads span basically the entire picture (that's why I left it zoomed out so much). Both directions of I-66 are notorious for being backed up at all hours of the day, with eastbound perhaps being a bit worse (during the morning rush hour, the majority of traffic must take the next exit due to HOV restrictions). At this interchange, I've frequently exited onto the C/D road with the idea that I'll see how the traffic looks once I reach the exit point for Nutley Street and then either exit or get back on the highway as appropriate (and a lot of other people do the same); last month this proved to be a wise move when the traffic backup out on the main road turned out to have been caused by a crash that was blocking all four lanes just before the far end of the C/D road.

VDOT actually used to encourage people to use a C/D lane on southbound I-95 in Springfield under Route 644 as a thru travel lane because the traffic at that particular location was so bad that having people use the C/D road as a regular lane was preferable. That's long defunct now that the interchange was rebuilt.

Re-reading my prior comment I can see how someone could misinterpret it as saying that it's OK just to run the C/D roads whenever you want. That wasn't quite what I meant, but I didn't really word it properly. On the other hand, it doesn't make sense to make it presumptively illegal, either.

I know it's OT, but that made me think of something I did once....

Has anyone taken the loop ramp of a cloverleaf, found that traffic was backed up, and then taken the other three loop ramps in succession in order to end up going the way you started out?  (like this)

Around here the loop ramps on some of the cloverleafs have been used in that fashion as designated detour routes during road construction in recent years when all lanes had to be closed to allow for bridge beams to be hoisted into place.

I don't think I've ever done what you describe, but I can think of multiple times when I've started down a loop ramp that isn't part of a cloverleaf, seen a major traffic backup, and cut a U-turn across a gravel area near the bottom of the ramp. (Satellite view here; the gravel area is next to the car that's going down the loop ramp.)

[roadman]

I know it's OT, but that made me think of something I did once....

Has anyone taken the loop ramp of a cloverleaf, found that traffic was backed up, and then taken the other three loop ramps in succession in order to end up going the way you started out?  (like this)

Never done that, but I've seen people take a loop ramp to find traffic backed up, then cross the median between the loop and outside ramps and re-enter the freeway mainline

[kphoger]

I can think of multiple times when I've started down a loop ramp that isn't part of a cloverleaf, seen a major traffic backup, and cut a U-turn across a gravel area near the bottom of the ramp. (Satellite view here; the gravel area is next to the car that's going down the loop ramp.)

Judging by the GMSV, you're not the only who's pulled that maneuver.

[Coelacanth]

Re-reading my prior comment I can see how someone could misinterpret it as saying that it's OK just to run the C/D roads whenever you want. That wasn't quite what I meant, but I didn't really word it properly. On the other hand, it doesn't make sense to make it presumptively illegal, either.

I didn't mean to suggest making it illegal, but I do consider it a "driver mistake".

In the particular interchange I'm concerned with, the entrance to the C/D lane is "Exit Only". To me, this means that if you are not exiting, you should not be in that lane.

In general, I think people should follow the signs rather than creating extra weaving movements for themselves. Which is not to say I think they should be ticketed if they do use the C/D lane and then decide not to exit.

[kphoger]

In the particular interchange I'm concerned with, the entrance to the C/D lane is "Exit Only". To me, this means that if you are not exiting, you should not be in that lane.

The driver does exit.  He then re-enters.

The "exit only" is not regulatory, but is a warning (hence the yellow color) that the lane you're in deviates from the road you're on.

[1995hoo]

Yeah, I don't disagree that if the driver can move out of the "Exit Only" lane into a thru lane without causing a hazard or holding up anyone else, that's the preferable thing to do. But if he can't do that, I think running the C/D road is better than slowing to a crawl, or driving on the shoulder, or cutting someone off.

Earlier today I was waiting to make a right on red and as I watched for a gap, I saw three lanes of traffic on the other road being held up because a dump truck driver had gotten into a left-turn-only lane, apparently wanted to turn right, and was determined to force his way across to the right-turn-only lanes instead of just going left and making a U-turn down the road. To me that's obnoxious. Slowing to a crawl in the "Exit Only" lane when there are people behind you who want to exit is similar.

[Alps]

I know it's OT, but that made me think of something I did once....

Has anyone taken the loop ramp of a cloverleaf, found that traffic was backed up, and then taken the other three loop ramps in succession in order to end up going the way you started out?  (like this)

Yup. CR 527 SB, went to get on I-280 EB in Livingston NJ, saw backup, looped back onto 527 SB and went the long way south.

[Brandon]

I know it's OT, but that made me think of something I did once....

Has anyone taken the loop ramp of a cloverleaf, found that traffic was backed up, and then taken the other three loop ramps in succession in order to end up going the way you started out?  (like this)

Yes.  I also wound up paying an extra 75 cents on the Tri-State last night to avoid such a thing as well.  Got on a Roosevelt, left at 22nd to get to the East-West Tollway.

[corco]

I didn't say it's always OK just to do it for whatever reason you want, but I also don't agree with you that it's never appropriate. Obviously, under normal circumstances you should use the regular lanes. But I don't think simply saying "stay off the C/D road unless you're exiting" is a valid position.

Heh, the express buses do that regularly on I-5 through Seattle- there's no signage encouraging them to do that, but I assume they've gotten the go-ahead because they're buses.

The only time I was ever on the 401 through Toronto was during early rushhour, and I got chastised by my friends for staying in the "express" lanes when the "local" (c/d) lanes were clearly moving much faster.

[thenetwork]

In the Greater Los Angeles Area, there are lots of cloverleaf & C/D interchanges where they encourage ramp running.  Even going as far as stating "THRU O.K." on the BGSs.

[Molandfreak]

On a four-lane highway near me, I frequently come across two people side-by-side, going 45 in a 50. Since it's only four lanes, I can't pass.

[kphoger]

At least not if there's a median.....unless the shoulder is wide enough.....

[Molandfreak]

At least not if there's a median.....unless the shoulder is wide enough.....

Nah man, there's a median the whole way.  The shoulder is wide enough for passing, but the road is frequently patrolled and I don't want to be an idiot.  Especially since no one ever does, say, 30 mph in both lanes.

[realjd]

Taking a right turn from a driveway into the leftmost lane. On a 3+ lane street. Good lord, Florida drivers make me want to rage.

The right and center lane have traffic but the left lane doesn't? You bet I'm turning into the left lane the second I have a hole big enough to get to it. You'd rather I turn into the busy lanes in front of another driver? Or what if I need to make an immediate left turn?

Actually, I'd rather you wait until traffic is clear.  If traffic is heavy, this is what causes accidents.  And if you have to go further and make a u-turn to accomplish that movement safely, then that's what needs to be done. 

Visibility is excellent here in flat Florida. It takes a smaller gap to cross a lane than it does to pull out into a lane and accelerate to speed. If I see a decent gap on the right and center lane with nobody for a half mile in the left lane, I fail to see how my turning into the left lane would cause an accident.

[kphoger]

If I see a decent gap on the right and center lane with nobody for a half mile in the left lane, I fail to see how my turning into the left lane would cause an accident.

Say I'm driving in the center lane, with another driver somewhere nearby in the right lane.  I see you start to turn right from a side street.  As a defensive driver, I make the assumption that you must have failed to see one or both of us, or else you wouldn't be turning right in front of us.  So, as an avoidance maneuver, I move into the left lane, thereby giving you and the driver on my right more wiggle room to avoid each other.  Now, though, because you decided not to wait for the proper lane to open up, you and I are on a collision course.  If you or I notice this in time to react, then one of us (which one?) could change course for the center lane.  But, if the driver in the right lane has also moved left in order to avoid you, then that lane is no longer clear either.  In fact, it then becomes a possibility that all three of us end up trying for the same lane, and all because you did what was not expected.

[djsinco]

If I see a decent gap on the right and center lane with nobody for a half mile in the left lane, I fail to see how my turning into the left lane would cause an accident.

Say I'm driving in the center lane, with another driver somewhere nearby in the right lane.  I see you start to turn right from a side street.  As a defensive driver, I make the assumption that you must have failed to see one or both of us, or else you wouldn't be turning right in front of us.  So, as an avoidance maneuver, I move into the left lane, thereby giving you and the driver on my right more wiggle room to avoid each other.  Now, though, because you decided not to wait for the proper lane to open up, you and I are on a collision course.  If you or I notice this in time to react, then one of us (which one?) could change course for the center lane.  But, if the driver in the right lane has also moved left in order to avoid you, then that lane is no longer clear either.  In fact, it then becomes a possibility that all three of us end up trying for the same lane, and all because you did what was not expected.

kp, could not agree more! I see far too many instances of the failure to yield the right of way, which is the violation caused by any other driver who causes one to be forced to react to a vehicle in any manner that must yield.

Every day, and for the last 15 - 20 years, I see and have seen the unfortunate side effect of those who have never driven vehicles built before the era (roughly about 1990) when cars were not so "easy" to drive. Modern automobiles have better brakes, more acceleration, better handling, and they are quieter inside. All these factors combine to allow drivers of the more recent generations to believe that sandwiching into any opening more than a car length is a reasonable merge, even at freeway speeds. Of course, eventually this overconfidence causes many accidents.

[allniter89]

I know it's OT, but that made me think of something I did once....

Has anyone taken the loop ramp of a cloverleaf, found that traffic was backed up, and then taken the other three loop ramps in succession in order to end up going the way you started out?  (like this)

Yeah I've done that alot in a 18wheeler, great way to reverse direction if you're lost or missed your exit.

[thenetwork]

If I see a decent gap on the right and center lane with nobody for a half mile in the left lane, I fail to see how my turning into the left lane would cause an accident.

Say I'm driving in the center lane, with another driver somewhere nearby in the right lane.  I see you start to turn right from a side street.  As a defensive driver, I make the assumption that you must have failed to see one or both of us, or else you wouldn't be turning right in front of us.  So, as an avoidance maneuver, I move into the left lane, thereby giving you and the driver on my right more wiggle room to avoid each other.  Now, though, because you decided not to wait for the proper lane to open up, you and I are on a collision course.  If you or I notice this in time to react, then one of us (which one?) could change course for the center lane.  But, if the driver in the right lane has also moved left in order to avoid you, then that lane is no longer clear either.  In fact, it then becomes a possibility that all three of us end up trying for the same lane, and all because you did what was not expected.

kp, could not agree more! I see far too many instances of the failure to yield the right of way, which is the violation caused by any other driver who causes one to be forced to react to a vehicle in any manner that must yield.

Every day, and for the last 15 - 20 years, I see and have seen the unfortunate side effect of those who have never driven vehicles built before the era (roughly about 1990) when cars were not so "easy" to drive. Modern automobiles have better brakes, more acceleration, better handling, and they are quieter inside. All these factors combine to allow drivers of the more recent generations to believe that sandwiching into any opening more than a car length is a reasonable merge, even at freeway speeds. Of course, eventually this overconfidence causes many accidents.

Times like that when I wish I were driving an all-metal 1968 Chevy Impala.  They would be at fault, their car turned into mince-meat, while my heavy-metal "tank" would barely have a blemish.   

[corco]

Say I'm driving in the center lane, with another driver somewhere nearby in the right lane.  I see you start to turn right from a side street.  As a defensive driver, I make the assumption that you must have failed to see one or both of us, or else you wouldn't be turning right in front of us.  So, as an avoidance maneuver, I move into the left lane, thereby giving you and the driver on my right more wiggle room to avoid each other.  Now, though, because you decided not to wait for the proper lane to open up, you and I are on a collision course.  If you or I notice this in time to react, then one of us (which one?) could change course for the center lane.  But, if the driver in the right lane has also moved left in order to avoid you, then that lane is no longer clear either.  In fact, it then becomes a possibility that all three of us end up trying for the same lane, and all because you did what was not expected.

The closest I've ever come to an accident was in a situation like this in Arizona a year or so ago. I was driving down a divided four lane road in the outside lane when I noticed a car doing a u-turn in a designated u-turn lane in front of me. The road was narrow enough that they'd have to get into the outside lane, so when they pulled out right in front of me I moved into the inside lane, assuming that they wouldn't have made the u-turn if they saw me. The car went into the outside lane as I expected, and by then my front was roughly parallel to their rear end (this is how close it was).  The car then moved into the inside lane (judging the timing I'm 85% sure he thought I was still in the outside lane), forcing me up onto the raised median as I braked (which fortunately had a shallow enough curb to more or less drive up on without causing damage). It took him a couple seconds to notice what was happening. I controlled it well enough that no damage was caused to either of us, but I chewed him out pretty good at the light after it happened.

[realjd]

Taking a right turn from a driveway into the leftmost lane. On a 3+ lane street. Good lord, Florida drivers make me want to rage.

The right and center lane have traffic but the left lane doesn't? You bet I'm turning into the left lane the second I have a hole big enough to get to it. You'd rather I turn into the busy lanes in front of another driver? Or what if I need to make an immediate left turn?

Actually, I'd rather you wait until traffic is clear.  If traffic is heavy, this is what causes accidents.  And if you have to go further and make a u-turn to accomplish that movement safely, then that's what needs to be done. 

Visibility is excellent here in flat Florida. It takes a smaller gap to cross a lane than it does to pull out into a lane and accelerate to speed. If I see a decent gap on the right and center lane with nobody for a half mile in the left lane, I fail to see how my turning into the left lane would cause an accident.

I see your point and I should probably be more careful when I'm driving other places but in Florida, nobody would change lanes because standard practice is what I described. The "proper" lane is the one without cars. Defensive drivers would brake within their lane (if needed; the gap should be big enough to cross without people braking) without changing lanes anticipating the driver moving into the empty lane.

[kphoger]

I know it's OT, but that made me think of something I did once....

Has anyone taken the loop ramp of a cloverleaf, found that traffic was backed up, and then taken the other three loop ramps in succession in order to end up going the way you started out?  (like this)

Yeah I've done that alot in a 18wheeler, great way to reverse direction if you're lost or missed your exit.

Actually, no, it's a great way to go the exact same direction you were originally going.  To reverse direction, one would only do half of what I described.

[djsinco]

Another on my list of annoying driver errors: those who pull up to and right through the stop area when entering from a residential street onto an arterial. Although they stop, the front bumper is more or less past the curb, and they show no signs of slowing from about 10 mph until the very last second, usually without ever making eye contact. Very obnoxious!