AARoads Forum

Non-Road Boards => Off-Topic => Topic started by: ghYHZ on January 04, 2019, 05:42:30 AM

Title: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: ghYHZ on January 04, 2019, 05:42:30 AM
There’s a petition in the US now to give the ‘Northwest Angle’ back to Canada….but did we (Canada) ever really have it and do we want it back?

‘We the People’ Petition:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/give-canada-back-northwest-angle-located-manitoba

…Canadian news coverage:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/give-canada-the-northwest-angle-petition-says-land-doesn-t-belong-to-u-s-1.4238410

Appears to be a road here but to reach the rest of Minnesota…..you would have to drive through Manitoba.

https://goo.gl/maps/jVb3ZWEAjmF2
 
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: abefroman329 on January 04, 2019, 09:18:44 AM
I think the policy of the White House paying attention to petitions that garner over X signatures ended in January 2017.
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: Brandon on January 04, 2019, 09:25:24 AM
I think the policy of the White House paying attention to petitions that garner over X signatures ended in January 2017.

I don't think there ever was one.  Even the last three would've ignored it.
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: 1 on January 04, 2019, 09:36:40 AM
I think the policy of the White House paying attention to petitions that garner over X signatures ended in January 2017.

I don't think there ever was one.  Even the last three would've ignored it.

Obama did it. Once it got enough (initially 25000, then 100000), it would get a response, although that's no guarantee of implentation.
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: froggie on January 04, 2019, 10:51:32 AM
RE:  giving it to Canada  - Giving it to Canada would certainly simplify border crossing logistics, but it creates four new questions: 

- Do you give it to Manitoba (who is adjacent to it by land) or Ontario (since it's east of the MB/ON border)?
- Most of the Northwest Angle is part of the Red Lake Indian Reservation.  What becomes of its status?  Does it get granted First Nation status under Canadian law?
- What do you do with the 119 residents (per the 2010 census) who are currently U.S./Minnesota citizens?
- Do you include the nearby islands that are also currently part of Minnesota?  At least two of them (Penasse and Oak Island) are populated.

RE:  the road - Yes, there is a road into the Northwest Angle.  In Minnesota, it's a County State Aid Highway (CSAH 49).  It's unpaved...in fact, the nearest pavement is on PR (Provincial Road) 308, about 7 miles from the border and 16 miles from Angle Inlet proper.  The nearest U.S. town (Warroad) is about 61 miles from Angle Inlet via CSAH 49, PR 525, PR 308, MB 12, and MN 313.  MnDOT shows the AADT on CSAH 49 as around 150, but few people actually use the road to get to/from the Angle...most people come via boat or seaplane.  There are also ice roads on the lake (https://lakeofthewoodsmn.com/ice-roads-on-lake-of-the-woods/) during the coldest parts of winter, some of which are within U.S. waters and as such don't require Customs check-ins.
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: 1995hoo on January 04, 2019, 11:06:23 AM
It's not a case of giving it "back" because it didn't belong to Canada. The Northwest Angle is part of the US because of inaccurate maps and assumptions made during the negotiations with the British to end the American Revolution. The peace treaty, which was based on the erroneous maps, says the border between the US and the British possessions to the north would run "...through the Lake of the Woods to the northwestern-most point thereof, and from thence on a due west course to the river Mississippi...." Problem is, the Mississippi doesn't go that far north. Its origin at Lake Itasca was not known at the time, and it's south of the Lake of the Woods. Meanwhile, the northwestern-most point of the Lake of the Woods is in a narrow arm to the north of what we now know as the Northwest Angle. This was all discovered by 1815, so in 1818 the border was renegotiated. The provision about the northwestern-most point in the lake was kept, but from there the border ran (and still runs) due south to the 49th parallel, at which point it turns west. (A later treaty relating to the division of the Oregon Country provided that it would deflect south near the Pacific so as not to split Vancouver Island.) The use of the 49th parallel led to other US enclaves accessible only through Canada —Elm Point, Minnesota, and Point Roberts, Washington, are the main two.
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on January 04, 2019, 12:04:44 PM
Exactly that explains why when I see "East of the Mississippi" and "West of the Mississippi" I wonder what is "East of the Mississippi" and what "West of the Mississippi" in Northern Minnesota (roughly from Bemidji to the Canadian border). I've solved that by tracing a line from Bemidji Lake to the Lower Red Lake, and then straight Northwards to where the USA/Canada border hits the 49th parallel after going South on the Lake of the Woods. As I once mentioned on the Geographical oddities that defy conventional wisdom thread, it is possible to go from East of the Mississippi to West of the Mississippi or vice-versa by land without crossing the Mississippi river at all, by traveling on MN 11.
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: Roadgeekteen on January 04, 2019, 12:58:49 PM
I'd rather not adjust the border for no reason.
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: vdeane on January 04, 2019, 01:35:29 PM
I'd give Northwest Angle (and associated islands, Elm Point, etc.) and Point Roberts to Canada to eliminate the border irregularities.  In return, Canada can give up its claim on the disputed island in Maine/New Brunswick.
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: Roadgeekteen on January 04, 2019, 02:34:27 PM
I'd give Northwest Angle (and associated islands, Elm Point, etc.) and Point Roberts to Canada to eliminate the border irregularities.  In return, Canada can give up its claim on the disputed island in Maine/New Brunswick.
Point Roberts actually has permanent residents though.
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: SP Cook on January 04, 2019, 03:37:53 PM
Trade it even up for Alberta.
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: TheHighwayMan394 on January 04, 2019, 04:36:54 PM
RE:  giving it to Canada  - Giving it to Canada would certainly simplify border crossing logistics, but it creates four new questions: 

- Most of the Northwest Angle is part of the Red Lake Indian Reservation.  What becomes of its status?  Does it get granted First Nation status under Canadian law?

For those who aren't aware, this is not the first time this kind of thing has been proposed. A similar petition to give the Angle to Canada came around in the mid-1990s at the federal level and was proposed by the state representative for the Angle, which the tribe strongly opposed, feeling as though (as is far too common in American history) their concerns and their rights to their land were completely ignored.
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: Bruce on January 04, 2019, 09:09:17 PM
I'd give Northwest Angle (and associated islands, Elm Point, etc.) and Point Roberts to Canada to eliminate the border irregularities.  In return, Canada can give up its claim on the disputed island in Maine/New Brunswick.

Point Roberts is actually rather useful for Canadians as a U.S. municipality. It has American prices for gas and package shipping, plus there are people who live there and commute to Vancouver for work in order to maintain their eligibility for U.S. citizenship. One case is Kekuta Manneh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kekuta_Manneh), a soccer player for the Vancouver Whitecaps who got his citizenship in 2016 (and is thus now eligible play for the U.S. team).
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: TheHighwayMan394 on January 05, 2019, 12:27:18 AM
Exactly that explains why when I see "East of the Mississippi" and "West of the Mississippi" I wonder what is "East of the Mississippi" and what "West of the Mississippi" in Northern Minnesota (roughly from Bemidji to the Canadian border). I've solved that by tracing a line from Bemidji Lake to the Lower Red Lake, and then straight Northwards to where the USA/Canada border hits the 49th parallel after going South on the Lake of the Woods. As I once mentioned on the Geographical oddities that defy conventional wisdom thread, it is possible to go from East of the Mississippi to West of the Mississippi or vice-versa by land without crossing the Mississippi river at all, by traveling on MN 11.

You're taking the definition far too literally. "East/West of the Mississippi" has little meaning within the state; no one refers to Minneapolis or St. Cloud as "West" or St. Paul/Duluth as "East".
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: cjk374 on January 05, 2019, 08:59:05 AM
CBS News' "Sunday Morning" did a nice story about the NW <.


Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: froggie on January 05, 2019, 10:33:21 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen
Point Roberts actually has permanent residents though.

So does the Northwest Angle, plus 2 of the adjacent islands...or did you miss that in my previous post?
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: 1995hoo on January 05, 2019, 11:08:07 AM
Exactly that explains why when I see "East of the Mississippi" and "West of the Mississippi" I wonder what is "East of the Mississippi" and what "West of the Mississippi" in Northern Minnesota (roughly from Bemidji to the Canadian border). I've solved that by tracing a line from Bemidji Lake to the Lower Red Lake, and then straight Northwards to where the USA/Canada border hits the 49th parallel after going South on the Lake of the Woods. As I once mentioned on the Geographical oddities that defy conventional wisdom thread, it is possible to go from East of the Mississippi to West of the Mississippi or vice-versa by land without crossing the Mississippi river at all, by traveling on MN 11.

You're taking the definition far too literally. "East/West of the Mississippi" has little meaning within the state; no one refers to Minneapolis or St. Cloud as "West" or St. Paul/Duluth as "East".

In a similar vein, there are places in the New Orleans area where the "Westbank" is actually located east of the "east" side of the Mississippi (across from the French Quarter is the most notable spot).
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: nexus73 on January 05, 2019, 05:47:32 PM
Annex Canada.  Problem solved...LOL!

Rick
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: Roadgeekteen on January 05, 2019, 05:50:55 PM
Annex Canada.  Problem solved...LOL!

Rick
RIP economy
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: 02 Park Ave on January 05, 2019, 10:47:53 PM

- Do you include the nearby islands that are also currently part of Minnesota?  At least two of them (Penasse and Oak Island) are populated.

Is there any "curse" involved with this Oak Island?
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: ghYHZ on January 06, 2019, 05:28:55 AM

- Do you include the nearby islands that are also currently part of Minnesota?  At least two of them (Penasse and Oak Island) are populated.

Is there any "curse" involved with this Oak Island?

No.....'this' is 'that' Oak Island....

https://goo.gl/maps/3oqWENtHpVA2
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: 02 Park Ave on January 06, 2019, 08:17:23 AM
The Northwest Angle's Oak Island is a lot closer to the UP.
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: SectorZ on January 06, 2019, 02:11:12 PM
I think the policy of the White House paying attention to petitions that garner over X signatures ended in January 2017.

I don't think there ever was one.  Even the last three would've ignored it.

Obama did it. Once it got enough (initially 25000, then 100000), it would get a response, although that's no guarantee of implentation.

Then when we wanted to deport Justin Bieber he upped it to 250,000.
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: sparker on January 10, 2019, 04:28:11 PM
Grant all the residents of the Angle, Elm Point, and Point Roberts dual citizenship -- and then start negotiating any territorial measures or swaps.  Of course, that'd be a non-starter with the current crowd controlling such things in D.C., given their enmity to Trudeau and his cohorts; such things should be postponed until 2021 at the earliest!
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: inkyatari on January 11, 2019, 12:21:47 PM
Turn the Northwest Angle into an international park, governed by a commission from both the US and Canada.
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: index on January 11, 2019, 12:36:27 PM
I feel that it would cost a lot less, cause a lot less stress and complications, and be far less of a use of resources to just build a bridge or implement a ferry. A territory handover from the US to Canada would probably go through miles and miles of red tape, somehow cost a lot, be subject to tons of debate and standstill, significantly affect people's lives, etc etc etc... Although it's worth noting it may be too deep for a bridge.
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: abefroman329 on January 11, 2019, 12:52:35 PM
A territory handover from the US to Canada would probably go through miles and miles of red tape, somehow cost a lot, be subject to tons of debate and standstill, significantly affect people's lives, etc etc etc
Yeah, they made a movie about a territory handover from Canada to the US called Super Troopers 2, and it sucked.
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: adventurernumber1 on January 11, 2019, 03:44:07 PM
I feel that it would cost a lot less, cause a lot less stress and complications, and be far less of a use of resources to just build a bridge or implement a ferry. A territory handover from the US to Canada would probably go through miles and miles of red tape, somehow cost a lot, be subject to tons of debate and standstill, significantly affect people's lives, etc etc etc... Although it's worth noting it may be too deep for a bridge.

That's true. Perhaps a ferry could be in order, if a bridge is not feasible.

I do agree with sparker that granting its citizens dual citizenship could be a good idea, and might make their lives much easier.

I always did think this was one of the weirder sections of border in the United States. Hopefully the aforementioned things could happen in order to make things less complicated.
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: triplemultiplex on January 12, 2019, 11:01:29 AM
Bridge...  :-D :-D

It's 12 miles of open water at its closest; one mile for every person that lives in the NW Angle. :-D

It'd be cheaper to buy every permanent resident of the NW Angle a bitchin' lake house somewhere else on the lake.
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: ixnay on January 12, 2019, 03:19:19 PM
Exactly that explains why when I see "East of the Mississippi" and "West of the Mississippi" I wonder what is "East of the Mississippi" and what "West of the Mississippi" in Northern Minnesota (roughly from Bemidji to the Canadian border). I've solved that by tracing a line from Bemidji Lake to the Lower Red Lake, and then straight Northwards to where the USA/Canada border hits the 49th parallel after going South on the Lake of the Woods. As I once mentioned on the Geographical oddities that defy conventional wisdom thread, it is possible to go from East of the Mississippi to West of the Mississippi or vice-versa by land without crossing the Mississippi river at all, by traveling on MN 11.

You're taking the definition far too literally. "East/West of the Mississippi" has little meaning within the state; no one refers to Minneapolis or St. Cloud as "West" or St. Paul/Duluth as "East".

In a similar vein, there are places in the New Orleans area where the "Westbank" is actually located east of the "east" side of the Mississippi (across from the French Quarter is the most notable spot).

Minneapolis and St. Paul each occupy land on both sides of the Mississippi, although you wouldn't know it looking at the Twins' "Win! Twins!" logo.

ixnay
Title: Re: Give the Northwest Angle Back
Post by: froggie on January 12, 2019, 08:32:51 PM
Quote
That's true. Perhaps a ferry could be in order, if a bridge is not feasible.

A ferry would not be feasible.  Not only would it have extremely light traffic and be expensive to run, but there are some months out of the year where the ferry couldn't run and the NWA would be cut off...namely in the fall when the lake ices over but the ice isn't thick enough for vehicles and conversely in the spring when the ice is melting.

Since 3MX went there, I'm not even touching the bridge idea...😌